¶ The Journey After Medical School
What's good everyone . It's Dr Nii . Listen , before we get into this episode . I'm actually editing and listening to this and I realized that I need to do a quick intro for this episode .
This is gonna be a really good one and I just gotta say that there's a lot of videos on social media where you see a lot of residents or , excuse me , a lot of medical students , excuse me really excited or surprised at where they're going to be going for their residency . It's a lot of hard work that gets put into there .
It's a lot of blood , sweat and tears and sometimes there's some disappointment , but we oftentimes we see a lot of the videos of really happy moments . But I'm really interested now in seeing the videos of those who are disappointed , those who got a letter saying that unfortunately you didn't match , or maybe even those who have been not matching for a minute .
And the reason I say that is , if you get so many videos of people really happy when they match , you don't have the other side . When you don't match , when you struggle , where do you go to ? It's great to go to these videos to get inspiration of where you are going to end up during your first try or maybe even your second try .
But we need more stories . I'd like to see more stories of what happens in between the people who are struggling and maybe going from residency to residency prelim position to another prelim position , rotating internship to another rotating internship .
What are you doing , what kind of steps are you taking , how does that road work and what can I get from that , particularly if I'm in that situation where I'm at ? So now that I'm I guess technically I'm an OG . Now I think the biggest advantage that I have is time . I've gotten an opportunity to pursue something .
I got an opportunity to attain that goal and now that I'm giving advice to medical students or even pre-meds , I tell them I'm really honest , I tell them that the pursuit of something is just as good , if not as important , as the actual acquiring of that goal .
Right , I'm going to say it again Pursuing something , going after something , you can learn just as much , you can gain just as many tools . You can be just as successful pursuing something as attaining that . Okay , and this episode really talks about that .
Right , we have Dr Travelle Franklin Ford Ellis yes , that's her real name , her long name , and we got a chance to catch up with her at the Student National Medical Association and me and Dr Travelle have known each other for a long time .
As a matter of fact , we served on the SNMA together and what you're going to hear in this episode is not of always the good times and just success all the time . But what happens when you go to a high-powered medical school ? Everybody expects the best from you . You want to be a surgeon and it just don't work out .
What you going to do , especially if you're an MD PhD candidate right , those are high-powered do . Especially if you're an MD PhD candidate right , like , those are high power . It's a really interesting place to be at . It's a place that not many people get a chance to hear .
Like , what happens when you get this MD PhD but you can't get into residency what do you do next ? And I think that this story is something that we or this is a story that we really need to hear , story that I think you all need to hear .
If Story that I think you all need to hear if you're a pre-med , if you're a med student , if you're a resident and you're struggling , or even if you're attending and you've gone through some difficult times , I think you could definitely relate to this story . So I hope you guys enjoy this short interview .
It's a little noisy in the background , but you know the message is still the same . Reach out to me , let me know what you think .
Dr , Chevelle .
for y'all who don't know me and Dr Chevelle , go way back . Way back when I was regional director for Region 2 , dr Chevelle was assistant regional director and then you became national president .
Yes , a couple years later , yeah .
Okay , all right , so tell us what you do , tell us everything that comes after your name . What are you up to right now ?
So I ended up well . Whitney and I were colleagues . I up to right now , so ended up well . Wendy and I were colleagues . I was MD PhD candidate at Wisconsin . I now lead health equity at exact sciences , which is a company seeking to eradicate cancer . So med tech devices . So not pharma , not implantable devices , but that lab space .
Okay .
And thinking about you might've seen our commercial , the Coligard , the talking box .
Oh , that's you that's .
that's what we do , Okay .
All right , that's one of our products .
And my job is to ensure that Cologuard is accessible , available and inclusive of all populations . So driving strategy , think about implementation . I'm now focused on the East Coast and working with health system partners and key community organizations to drive change .
One thing that I'm not hearing is seeing patients on a day-to-day basis . Clinical medicine , any of that stuff Talk to us about , so right now you're not practicing on patients .
I've never practiced on a patient .
Talk to us about that , because a lot of people don't understand how that works . So you went through seven years of medical school , or seven years of medical school , right , I went through 10 years of medical school , 10 years of medical school , right , I went through 10 years of medical , 10 years of medical school .
So you graduate with your md as well as a phd right , tell us the decision as to like , give us the reason why you went yeah , decisions or the direction that you went so my story is one of pivot um finished my md phd and was not successful after two rounds trying to match into a competitive surgery residency okay and so , to that end , I needed a job ,
full transparency .
I had 1.5 kids and a husband and needed to have some stability in my life . See , this is what .
I'm talking about . This is what these things are , because people don't know about this stuff , for sure .
Everybody just sees the end product and is like well , how did you end up there ?
And it's like well , there's all these different things . Like I tell people , I applied to medical school twice and those in-between years were like the most difficult , darkest . I didn't know what's going to happen . My parents are like what are you doing ? I'm like I don't know . I'm trying to figure this out . It was dark . I mean , it was very much .
You spent 10 years , 10 plus years loans . It gives you a lot of room , though . You know what I'm saying .
It does , so I can take some risks . So when I was in that place of what am I going to do ? I need to get a job Like I'm a doctor , that's not going to practice , or am I going to practice Like I can take ?
a couple more From a big-time college or medical school too University the question was am I going to take a year here , take a year there , move around ? Am I going to do more research ? I already had a PhD in biomedical engineering . It wasn't really high on my list . Do I want to MHA ? Because I knew I wasn't going to go back to more school .
Right , do I go back to more school ? I've already spent 10 and a half years and so , after some prayer , reflection and just picking myself up , I reached out to one of my professors and I was like , look , I took my maternity leave . So at that point my second child was born .
Um , I took my maternity leave , got some clarity and I was like you know , I just need enough money to put this baby in daycare and I want to get a fellowship , like I need to get some exposure to healthcare administration .
And so I didn't know what I was doing , but I just it was enough space to not be in my condo with my husband Right and really think about what's opportune . My network came through for me . So a guy that I did grad school with was working for an orthopedics company in middle of nowhere , indiana and said , hey , we're starting this new role .
It's about doctors talking to doctors . It's a safe harbor . It's called a medical science liaison , something I had never heard of , and I got to use my MD and my PhD to talk to doctors about stem cells , something I knew a lot about .
And so my first job first real job as a doctor okay was as an MSL in the orthopedic industry and from that leveraging skills , presenting complicated science .
I then leveraged relationships and got into a role with health equity before it was health equity and ended up switching companies to Exact Sciences three years ago and now I direct the strategy of what we are going to do as a company to serve more people . So the work we did 20 years ago in SMA and communities right was the training ground plus pivot .
So for the folks , see , that's the key , the folks who are watching right now , listening right now , because there are people who are nontraditional pre-med students like me .
There are people who have to take a pause between medical school and residency , and then there's even some people even after residency that still have to take a pause in between medical school and residency , and then there's even some people even after residency that still have to take a pause .
Looking back , do you think that there's any red flags or any mistakes that you saw that you're like I probably should have did X , y and Z , or is it just the luck of the draw and look ? The ability for you to pivot is something that is like resiliency , basically .
Yeah .
I think a lot of people they don't catch that they say , well , if I did this better , if I got this MCAT score , it's like , well , if hindsight was 20-20 , I obviously would be able to fix it .
But that ability to be like , look , I'm a doctor , for sure I can figure this out , I don't know that I would be where I am right now had I not gone through the process I think mid-process to your question about where might I have pulled back or switched . Maybe I would have said I've done this enough .
Maybe I would have pulled back on some of the extracurriculars . Do I need to be at yet another health fair ? Do I need to be at yet another program ? Is that enough ? I think I was also ahead of my time when I was writing my essays for residency . I was trying to sell this idea of data-driven community engagement and that wasn't valued at that time .
Got you , got you .
You're like 10 years too early , yeah , but now that healthcare everybody's woken up to healthcare is too expensive or social determinants , health-related social needs . Right Now I get paid to do something I really love . Did I love surgery Absolutely ? Would I have loved surgery as a mom and a wife ? Maybe , I don't know .
That's the thing that a lot of people don't think about is like , because a lot of times it asks you're going to have to sacrifice something and the question is do you want to sacrifice your family life or with the kids ? You know , for your personal pursuit , that's tough . Yeah . With the kids , you know for your personal pursuit , that's tough .
Yeah , that's tough , you know .
So we talk about it on our show with Dr Renee and even me , like we've kind of pared down a little bit just to make sure that there's a parent with the kids all the time For sure , and it's tough , there's monetary sacrifices , there's some career sacrifices , but in the long term we feel like you know the kids better be appreciative of it .
But you show up for your kids right , just like you invest in yourself . You invest in them Absolutely .
Okay . So what's the one piece of advice you would give to , let's say , pre-med ? That's here . What kind of advice would you give to them ? Just one piece of advice that you would give to them walking around trying to figure things out .
I would say follow your instinct , like follow your gut , that little spot he said . So when I got into health equity or , you know , minority initiatives , I was nervous because this was pre-George Floyd .
Right .
And even though I saw CDO roles , et cetera , I was like I don't want to do DEI , I want to do outcomes . And so you got to keep . You got to keep massaging your story to the point of you know , say it enough . Figure out what you really want to do .
Okay .
So that when your window comes , you jump in Right and as a pre-med or as a med student working with you in the region . Like I didn't know what that was going to look like then . Right , we just had an idea of students in med school in the Midwest are disconnected and need community , and our patients need us , right .
So we did , and renee just did , a session on global medicine or global health and I was telling them at the end I was like , listen , if you had asked me in medical school if I was going to be traveling to ghana to do medical work , I said eventually I would have gotten to it right exactly .
I would not have known that I would have gotten it right after I finished fellowship and I would not have been able . I , realistically , I would not be at this point right now where I'm like considering , like moving there . I just never thought I'd be at that point . It's just that it just ebbs and flows .
¶ Taking Risks in Medicine
Medicine goes , you know , to the beat of your drum , so to speak , and I think a lot of times , you know , people get so caught up on following what the other person is doing , or following what their attendings are doing , or what the professors are doing , and they kind of lose track that like , this is really your car , this is really , you know , you drive
this shit . And I think we're not always open to taking risks , right , what sis ? Come on yo . She don't she . She is he . Yes , or , excuse me , she is . Wait , what is it ? Travelle is she ? She knows what she's talking about . Let me get my my pronouns correct . But it's true , it's about risks .
It's about risk , yeah , and we're not used to taking risks in medicine not at all , especially individuals of color .
Where you're like I can't afford to mess up I can't afford , like I'm going to do exactly what they tell me . And I got to a place where I did exactly what they told me . I did a little , even a little bit more . I was the poster child for this , recruited , mentored , all the things , and when it came down to it , they didn't .
Nobody showed up for me , nobody , right . And so it was like Chevelle , what you gonna do ?
I agree with you 100% . I love it . I love it .