¶ Financial Barriers to Changing Medical Paths
I would love to talk to you about how you transition out of traditional medicine with so much debt , because finances , or like thereof , is the main barrier as to why I am not even beginning to make any moves at all .
My husband is in charge of my finances and every time I raise a question of changing my path or changing my work lifestyle , he discourages me and says we cannot afford it and tells me not to move . Can you help me , please ? Do y'all want me to be responsible , dr Me , or should I be toxic me ?
You know what ? Surgeon's choice ?
Because you know what I did not know so many different people listen to this show . I told you I walked into the post office and Mr Evans was like yo , I listened to your show and I was like , oh , I'm not going to lie guys Like I'm not like this , like personally , like off the show .
But what you have to say , because it's a lie . Whatever it is you're about to say is a lie . What do you ?
mean , there are people who I know who will be like you know , I listen to the show and I'm like like it's scary sometimes . So I'm like , should I be the responsible one and answer this the way that like a responsible person should answer this , or should I be the toxic person and be very toxic and be like yo ? Why is he handling all your finances ?
All right , we got another question that we have to answer , and it is discrimination in residency and pursuing locums . Can we even say this right now ? Because you know what Hi ? You know what , hi , dr Nii and Dr Renee . How are you both doing ? Are you taking phone calls while we're doing this podcast ? Yes , long-time listener of the show .
See , this is what I'm talking about , man Jimmy .
Jimmy , that's my student .
I truly enjoy every moment of wisdom you two share . It's been inspiring and motivating , especially for someone like me . I have a question for both of you . As a non-traditional pre-med who's Black and Haitian descent , have either of you experienced any form of discrimination ?
Why are you whispering ?
Directly or indirectly from your peers during your pre-med journey , medical school or as attendings ? And if so , how did you handle it , yo ? My second question is for Dr .
Yeah , dr Renee say it .
My second question is for Dr Renee . You introduced Dr Nita Locum's . What made you decide to pursue Locum Tennant's work in the first place ? Thank you both for all that you do Best . Jimmy from South Florida PS . Dr Renee from South Florida PS . Dr Renee is the worst addition to the show .
That is not what he said . It says PS . Dr Renee is an awesome addition to the show .
Thanks , Dr Jimmy , thank you for writing in and listen . Make sure you acknowledge the host .
Okay , You're going to be student . Dr Jimmy , a word , that's what's up .
That's what's up . So he got into med school .
You got into med school , yeah oh my god , he's , he's working on it good dr jimmy , listen man , or pre-med jimmy , we appreciate it yeah we appreciate it , so this is a very good question , right we putting it out there .
Putting it out there okay , so um , listen , um , you gonna do this . So the question is um , have you , have you experienced any form of discrimination , directly or indirectly , from your
¶ Discrimination in Medicine: Personal Experiences
peers during your pre-med journey , med school or as attendings what ?
about you um .
So I'm gonna be really honest with you , with you guys . Like I just went through medical school with blinders on , I was very competitive . I kept to myself a lot . I think part of that was because I had a chip on my shoulder from not getting in the first time .
And during those two years where I was trying to figure out what I was going to do and thinking about man , I would really . I know I could do well in med school . I know I could . I deserve to be in med school . One of the things that I promised myself is I would not let anything derail me from doing well in med school .
And Renee can tell you and I not lying I kicked ass in med school . I kicked ass and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I literally was like F everybody . I got to work hard and I'm not worried , I'm not paying attention to nothing . So is there a possibility that there were some indirect ? Is there a possibility .
We got at least two stories for you .
Okay , I just wasn't paying attention to it and I just was just moving forward and doing my thing . So if I can't really tell you any stories about , you have two stories .
What are you talking about ?
Do I have two stories ?
When you went to go and check your grade .
When you went to go and check your grade .
When you went to go check your grade , you have to tell me , because sometimes I don't be paying attention . So you and , let's just say , a student of a different hue um went to go . So this is before . You would check your grade online and stuff like this .
So we used to have to check our grades in the back of the classroom and you were assigned a specific number . You're the only person that knew your number and whenever you took an exam you would go back and you would see what your number is and then your grade next to that number ?
who you talking about um ?
oh , yeah , yeah , okay , so you and a fellow student , yeah , you're going to tell the story because a fellow student went to the back of the class at the same time and went to check your grade . Yeah , and you tell me this story when you get back and I'm like , hey , yo , what the heck . So tell me what happened .
What transpired , dr Nee , when you went to go look at your grade and this student was also looking at his grade um , I forgot how it got brought up , but my I I did okay , I did good , and I'm not sure how that person did , but basically right because you don't know each other's numbers , so you don't even know what number .
They didn't know what scores they were looking at right , because you knew your number and he knew his number . But he essentially asked you how , how did you ?
do , and at that point I just I didn't feel like lying , so I just told him how I did and I , to this day I don't remember how , how he did .
So you did better than him . Okay , you definitely did better than him , because he , he eventually got kicked out of school for academic reasons , right , eventually got kicked out of school for academic reasons , right , right . So this person , who , what's the what's the real going on now ?
Little did he know that in a year and a half he would get kicked out of school for academic reasons .
Um yeah I'm gonna tell y'all I really there's a lot of times , there's a lot of times I'm not paying attention you came back and you told me yo , you know what such and such just said to me .
He just said to me , when I told him what my score was , that he didn't think that I would do that well in school .
Yeah , he said . Based off of how he said , you just don't strike me as the type of person who would do well in school in school , right , and I was like what the hell is that supposed to mean ?
Now let me tell you , it's funny , because if you ask who has the bigger temper , it's actually me .
But if you ask , who has the fastest temper ? It is me . That is true . That is true . Yeah , you do have a faster temper .
I do have a faster temper . I was like what the hell does that mean ? Oh my God , I was so heated for you . I'm like you don't understand what he just said to you . You're like whatever , I was so mad for you , I was big mad .
I think part of it , I think I kind of realized , but I just was like I did better than him anyway , right , exactly , so it didn't matter , right ? Who cares ? So ?
So then you also had the story of . This is the end , like we are done with medical school and we are at our awards ceremony .
Remember this one . I don't know if you . I think this one is not related .
Yeah , I think it is Okay , I think it is so . Everybody knew in , at least at our school , that one of the most prestigious awards you can get is the surgery award , right , and so they're giving out awards , they're calling up people , you know this award , that that award , and then here comes the surgery award , and the surgery award goes to the med school .
This is in med school . Right , we're ending . This is based off how you did in your , your um , like your rotation and stuff . Yeah .
Whatever scores all kinds of things . So surgery award goes to Knee Darko . Yay Right , all right . We are walking around the place , you know . Now awards are done , we're eating dinner and people are just kind of walking around and I'm walking with Knee and one of our fellow students say hey me , how'd you swing that surgery award ?
And I immediately I got the fast temper .
Renee's like the Doberman .
I got the fast temper . Ok , now again , this is a student of a different hue , not the same hue as the first one , but still a different hue . And he says how did you swing that surgery award ? So I stopped and I'm like well , it's because he's a shit . And he's like ha , ha , ha , ha . No , seriously , how'd you swing that surgery
¶ Medical School Challenges and Biases
award ? And I said , I said it's because he's a shit . Like what are you not understanding ? And then we kept walking . So my fat , my temper goes up fast , comes down really fast .
So for me that question was something that was like you , there are certain people you would not have asked that question to right , like he would not have asked that question to certain people , but because knee darko , um , you know , looks a certain way , he asked that question . Also you . It was also assumed that you played basketball , but that was that .
One was a little yeah , I definitely less benign , bro , I broke it was assumed that he played basketball .
They put him horrible , they put him on the team . They called the team knee darko and the token white guys , and let me tell you . So I had to play . Dr Knee Darko does not play basketball .
That's why I didn't get in school . I don't teach that .
That one was less benign or less malignant .
I should say , should say so , you know , like those type of things , I just , I don't know why I ? Just they kind of I had blinders on during those time and stuff and I just wasn't paying attention . She was way more aware of it than I was .
But I have to be honest with you , like in uh , in my rotations in residency now I went to an hbcu program for residency and then , you know , I went to the middle of central Pennsylvania to work . There's not really any occasion that I could think of , in front of my face , blatantly , where there was some type of discriminatory action that I can think of .
But I could tell you right now , like you know , that stuff is a heavy , that's a heavy weight to carry , that I think . A lot of times people who are underrepresented , you know , they kind of put on themselves too sometimes and I've just decided that I'm not going to carry that weight because I can't change anybody's mind .
I can't you know and I won't right . So for me , I'm not going to take that weight on . My job is not to change your mind . My job is to take care of you when you're sick . My job is to take care of you when you're sick . My job is to take care of you when you're about to die and bring you back .
You know from the gates of heaven , before you know , you go there .
And you found the surgery . So you don't always succeed , but that's okay , you know .
So I think you don't know my numbers right . So I think that in general I try not to carry that stuff around with me because I think that that stuff weighs a lot If it's there , if it's blatant .
You know , for me I'm the type of person who likes to handle things like point blank and to the point , specifically , if I see it , I'm not the type of person who's like you know , I'm just going to let it go , I'll be like yo .
You know , if you have an issue with me , you don't want me to take care of you , then you know , it looks like you have to go two hours because I'm the only trauma surgeon for you in two hours and you have to go figure it out because I'm the only one on call today ?
Yeah , ain't nobody else coming to help you , you know , and so yeah , that's the way I kind of look at it . I don't , I don't let it bother me , I don't really think about it at all .
My biggest one I've shared this story before is just about . You know , my pre-med advisor in particular . You know whether it was discrimination because of race or discrimination , and I will say this discrimination because of grades is real and I'm not talking about , oh well , you didn't get into the program because you didn't , whatever .
That's not what I'm talking about . I'm like well , you know , the numbers aren't yours if the student is doing really , really well . Like you didn't put anything into this Right , like if I came to you with a 4.0 and said , ok , I'm ready to go to med school and you write me a little , you know little , pre-med letter .
I'm like what the hell did you put into ? You didn't put anything into this . They're going to look at you like Hercules , Exactly .
And then they're going to take the credit , right . So for me , the best pre-med advisors actually take the time to figure out who are the students who do want to go to medical school but don't quite know how to get there and maybe are fumbling a little bit , and then do something to help , right , do some sort of intervention to guide them .
Whereas my pre-med advisor decided to tell me that I should go to dental school and then said , no , but that's hard to get into . Also , then she said maybe you should go to graduate school and do something else . So I was like , okay , she's weird , I didn't like the advice that she gave .
So I was like , okay , well , then I'm going to go back to her for advice , right ? I wasn't like , oh my God , like I'm not going to get into med school . I was like , oh my God , I don't know what to do . But I wasn't .
I never thought to myself that I wasn't going to make it into medical school , and I think that's where you and I are very similar . You had no doubts . I had no doubts I was going to make it into med school .
I , you know , maybe I said it before , maybe I was naive , maybe I was cocky , but I had no doubts that I was going to make it into medical school .
I just didn't know how , how it was going to , how I was going to get there . Yeah , because when I didn't get in and I was working at the Sports Authority or I was working at CompUSA , yo , when I was filling out them applications to work at Sears , yo my sister almost got me a job at AT&T .
I was like yo , I ain't never going to med school , yo , I'm going to just be working customer service . Yo , yo , I did all them jobs . Listen , I did Listen . I'm keeping it real . I didn't even say that on the podcast yo . On that other podcast , yo , your brother was was tight , tight .
I was like , yeah , I don't know if I'm going to do this , but anyway , keep going , keep going .
No , I , I always knew I was going to get in . I just didn't know how it was going to happen .
You know , and whenever anybody asked me , even during my post-bac years , when people ask me , oh , you're going to get , I'm like , yeah , I'm going to go , I'm just going to , I'll apply when I'm ready , when I am ready , and I knew that I was working up to being ready , right ?
So that was probably , you know , the first time that something was like blatantly in front of me , like , ah well , you know , you can't do it anyway , or whatever , right , just kind of discriminating against me because , specifically in this case , probably because of my grades .
But again , I don't know that if I had not been of this hue , if it would have been , look like , well , you know , yeah , you didn't do well in chemistry , but you know , maybe you can do something else .
So that's very possible that you know , if I were of a different hue , I might have gotten a different response to be like , hey , let's intervene here and see what we can do to help you get onto the path .
What about any other time In ? Med school In med school or in residency . I can't remember in med school or as an attending anything like that .
I can't remember in med school . I will say that I do think that I was targeted and discriminated against by an attending , by a very specific attending , probably because of my race , and he was just caustic , just completely caustic to me and really sought me out to to just make my life a living hell . So I had no beef with this man .
I do not know this man .
I hate to say it . I hope I don't sound ridiculous . I don't know who this man is .
I mean he could be walking down the street , I wouldn't . I wouldn't know a thing . Sorry to this man . As Kiki Palmer said , I don't know this man , so I didn't know him . I didn't know him from a can of paint when I first got to .
We need to do an episode of Kiki Palmer man ?
No , we don't . When I first got to residency I didn't know him from a can of paint , but he decided he just didn't like me . He , I can't say I mean the most that I've ever been asked is like when I had locks Are you Jamaican ?
I'm like nope , I'm not going to front . When you had locks , I like the locks .
You like the locks , I like the locks . You don't want to ?
Okay , anyway , all right let's go to the second question . But yeah , thank you very much for sharing that , dr Renee , because your memory is way better than my recollection . So , the second question is okay , that is true . So Renee did introduce me to locums .
I did
¶ Pursuing Locum Tenens: A Career Alternative
Right . So what made you decide Locums , me , me , locums .
What made you decide to pursue locum tenants work in the first place ? Dr Renee , Can you keep it short and sweet .
So I met an attending in residency and she essentially introduced me to locums , but I didn't know what setting I wanted to work in .
And we had broken up too .
No , this is before . What are you talking about ?
Oh yeah , it's true .
I didn't work locums because you broke up with me Like what kind of stupidness is that ?
But then you like go to like Alaska Remember .
No , I went to Idaho . I didn't go to Idaho because you broke up with me . Same thing .
No .
Anywho . So this guy that you know a lot of things in my life don't actually have anything to do with you before we got married .
Hold up yo let's to do with you before we got married . Hold up , yo let's just you know what , let's just toxic me , so hold on . So when you was doing locums , you mean to tell me you ain't pick Idaho because we had just broken up .
What so ? Let me ask you a question what does Idaho have to do , did you ? No , no , no , no , don't ask me no questions . Answer my question what ?
You're straight up tripping right now and you change it and you recollect it and you pot it . I want you to tell the truth . You can't handle the truth you can't handle the truth T-R-U-F-F Because you had told me y'all went to Idaho to get away from you . Stop fronting .
To get away . You went to Miami .
Okay .
You went to Miami . Where were you going to find me ? Where were you going to find me ? First of all , your family was in Jersey . My family was in New York .
So , even if I went back , even if I went to New York .
Even if I went to New York , I wouldn't have seen you so . I don't even know what you're talking about . You went to Miami Anywho , so I ended up doing locums because I didn't quite know what setting I wanted to be in . I didn't like the idea of signing on the dotted line and just not knowing you know what an employer was .
You know was really going to be providing for me in terms of experience , especially because a lot of a lot of employee jobs you have to sign . Usually they want you to sign for three to five years . I just didn't know what I wanted to do .
I had seen my seniors kind of go through the interview process as well and just some of the things that I heard from them I was like , eh , I'm not really too keen on , like you know , some of them were being made promises that I was just kind of like that sounds like a lot of bullshit to me .
You're looking for a job when you're a resident is not sexy as hell . Yeah , it's not sexy .
Yeah . One of my mentees is actually looking for a job now and yeah , it's tough .
So when you did locums , I was like , when we started talking , I was like yo . I was just so fascinated by it because , you know , I didn't understand how you got paid . Remember , I would always ask you I was like yo , so did they pay you first before you got there ?
Right , because I didn't , I didn't understand .
I didn't understand that you had to do . You know , you worked and then you submitted a timesheet and then they submitted the paper . I didn't get the whole concept of you know , you getting a check that has no taxes taken out of it , and then like Guess I ended up on the lam from the IRS .
Yeah , hey , come here .
She's telling the truth , y'all . So , so I did locums because she convinced me to do locums , because for me I didn't like the interview process at going to all of these different hospitals . You go there , you interview there for eight hours and then at the end of the day or the next day they give you a contract .
The contract is for like three to five years . They show you where houses are and so forth , and I just was not willing at that point to be I don't know , I just didn't want to be in one place for that long .
And I just had a really nasty exchange between a potential employer and me and I remember telling Renee about it and in essence the program director was yelling at me telling me to make a decision quickly because you know there was certain major things in the contract that we just couldn't get past that I had a lawyer look at and I was waiting for my lawyer to
get back . And when I say major things , I'm talking about like how much call am I going to ?
take .
And then what happens if I go past that threshold of call ? How should I get paid ? That's a big deal , folks . I don't care what anybody says , like , you need to know the scope of work , right , how often are you going to be on call ? If you're on call and you go past that point , how are you going to get paid ?
I'm telling y'all right now , if you are looking at a potential employer and they're just saying we'll figure it out , run . That's a red flag you need to be . It needs to be very delineated how much you're going to get paid . But anyway , I had a bad interaction with that person . Talked to Renee about it .
She was like yo , if they're willing to talk to you like this , before you sign on the dotted line , imagine how they're going to talk to you , how they're going to treat you , how you're going to interact when you don't make them happy . And you signed a contract with them and I was like yo , you're right .
So what I decided to do is I was like yo , I called the locums company , like the next day , and then I started doing locums for a year and a half and it was amazing . I loved it . I loved it . I did everything that I was always doing as a resident , everything that I was always doing , you know , and it was just fun and it was a great experience .
And then the reason we switched to employed after that was we just decided like , look , we're getting , we're getting married , we want to start , you know , a family , let's settle down , basically .
And one of the places that I worked at as a locums for like a year and a half it was a great situation to land at and we decided to take that job , turn that from a locums job to an employed job . Boy , how long did it take me , like before I was like man
¶ Benefits of Locums vs. Traditional Employment
,
¶ Pursuing Locum Tenens: A Career Alternative
I
¶ Benefits of Locums vs. Traditional Employment
¶ Pursuing Locum Tenens: A Career Alternative
wish
¶ Benefits of Locums vs. Traditional Employment
I never switched . Boy , how long did it take me , like before I was like man , I wish I never switched .
Oh , it was a while . It was a while . Well , when we first got , when we first took the job , we had already had in our minds that we would stay there for three years . We were like three years max . We ended up staying double that time , but we had already put in our minds that we would stay there three years .
Well , we stayed there three years as employed . Doc as employed docs .
And then we stayed a couple more years afterwards yes , as locums , because we got what we wanted right you know so , so listen it's . It's not a it's not a panacea .
It just works for us and , and as I always say in every episode , you know we may be fans and maybe a little bit fanatical about it , but I do think that most doctors should have some portion of their practice , whatever it may be .
Try it , you might like it . Hey , mikey . Hey , let's get Mikey . Yeah , he'll eat anything here , mikey .
I guess Mikey didn't like it Should be as Right , that's checks , right . Right Should be as an independent contractor , locums , whichever way you want to look at it . So , Dr Jimmy man , this is great , Great question and I wish you the best .
I know that grind of trying to get into med school is tough , but you're going to make it there and if Dr Renee is your mentor , you're well on your way .
Yeah , that was so nice of you to say . I paid him $20 to say that , guys this message is approved by Dr Renee .
All right , y'all . Yeah , I forget how people can get it . You can do it so well , so how can people get it ?
You can DM us on Instagram , TikTok , anywhere social media is . You can write us a fan mail . Go down below and click that link . You can text us too . I forgot about the text number . The text number is down there too , as well as you can go to docsoutsidetheboxcom .
¶ Final Thoughts and Advice
And don't forget everybody . We know everything . So any question you have , we don't know everything . This is edutainment purposes only , it is . It is edutainment purposes only , but we know everything we , we know everything you know everything about edutainment , edutainment . Anything with your academics . We can answer Anything with your relationship . We can answer Anything .
We give the best answers .
I've been watching people Honestly . The ability to answer yes , we can answer no our answers are the best . I listen to a lot of different podcasts , I watch a lot of TV and I'm telling you I hope they put tariffs on freaking podcast equipment , because these people out here some of the things I'm like what are y'all ?
saying 20v1 . All right , y'all , we'll catch you guys on another episode of Docs Outside the Box , y'all Peace .