¶ Haitian Independence Day Traditions
What's the most important holiday that you won't wear ?
Besides my birthday , it's New Year's Asian Independence Day .
Tell the audience what happens .
We have a huge dinner , but before dinner got to drink your soup , jumo .
Nobody's drinking the soup . This soup is thick as hell . Yo Y'all eating the soup , but anyway , keep moving .
That has to be the first thing in my stomach . I can't risk going back to 1803 . I gotta be in 1804 where there's freedom , and I can't do that if I'm on call .
Yo , what's good everybody . Welcome to another episode of Docs Outside the Box . Yo , I'm your host , dr Nii . I'm joined by my lovely animated co-host , dr Rene . What's good , dr Rene , how you doing ? I'm fine . Oh Okay , all right .
Not even Halloween .
You got that late night buzz .
huh , I see , I see , you know , when you post call , but I'm not actually post call , but I'm post like kitty call , because I always get you post what Kitty call .
Oh , I was about to say I was like yo . What are we talking about here ?
Okay , you know what ? Get your dirty mind out the gutter . You ain't getting paid . You ain't got . What is it ? You ain't knocking booth Anywho . That's when you stay up late Because your kids went to bed and now you feel like freedom , yeah , but then you're tired as hell . But then you're tired .
But then you get like your second win , and now you got like this post-kid delirium , just like what's called delirium . Yeah , when you feel like dude , I could do the next case if you want me to .
When you know your relationship . Renee's on one right now , guys . So , um , listen , this is
¶ Post-Call Delirium and Hospital Life
docs outside the box . I just gotta start off by saying um , renee , I woke up late today and I went to work today late . Everybody who's listening . Has this ever happened to you ? You know , I woke up at six o'clock , sign out is at seven o'clock and I kept snoozing and snoozing until I woke up at seven . Oh five , I was like oh , who's snoozing ?
Oh , that's the worst feeling . But this time I just called , I was like , yeah , I'm going to be late and you know I'm only 15 minutes away , so I drove in . They were still signing out , Cause the list is long as hell . I ain't really well the person in this day . I mean I ain't missed nothing We've had . We got a bunch of rocks in our show .
We got a lot of people who we can't get out . You know , trauma is crazy like that . Like you'll , you'll have sometimes these ebbs and flows where you'll have like really like crazy trauma that comes in . But then the hard part is sometimes you can't get them out . Like you're done taking care of them but you cannot get them out for various reasons .
They don't get insurance , they ain't got a place to stay , whatever it may be .
You know , particularly in the elderly people like the geriatrics , like that's the hardest one because you know they were living at home and they fell down and now it's like the whole family's having a hard time finding out or trying to come to a place where they're just like , yeah , we knew she was or we knew he was on a tight rope downward spiral and this
is it . He or she needs to go to a nursing home or they need to come live with us or they need to go to rehab . Either way they're not going home by themselves and that , a lot of times , is the hardest part . That's the hardest part . We see that a lot in trauma .
So I'm glad I'm not you , because I don't . I don't see that very often at all , if at all but speaking of you know we're talking about the last episode .
My work wife hooked me up with a toothbrush and toothpaste . Shout out to the nurse and I kill you . Shout out to the nurse in the icu hooked me up like good morning to you .
Oh yeah , Good morning to you .
That funk , that funk , you know . You talking to patients , you in their face , you talking to families . I can't let . As soon as I got the sign , I went upstairs , got my brushed it up , Brushed it on . Yeah .
Yeah , no , that's good , that's good .
Well , look , look , you know we've got some stuff we're going to talk about , but I wanted to revisit the question that I asked you from the previous episode because , I'll be honest , I didn't like my answer , so I want to give myself a redo .
The what would you do differently in med school ? That one .
No , this the what's a medical myth or tradition . You think we should retire , and why ?
Oh , what'd you say I ?
forgot what I said . It was weak , though it was weak , I didn't like it .
I
¶ Doctors as Leaders: A Critical Perspective
forgot I said 24 hour call um , mine is more philosophical .
Basically , doctors ain't leaders , right like ? I think there's this notion that just because you graduated from med school , you mastered this knowledge and quote unquote like you are , you are in charge of a team , right Like ? You're the person with the most knowledge , so to speak , on pathophysiology , or how a person lives or dies , or all that stuff .
Does that necessarily make you a leader ? Like ? I think , by default in medicine we make doctors leaders , but I tend to think that leadership you learn leadership . Some people are born natural leaders , but there's a quality of like first of all . I think you got to be a good person to be a leader . I do .
I really think you got to be a good person to be a leader . I think that you got to be able to inspire people to . I really think you got to be a good person to be a leader . I think that you got to be able to inspire people to like do what you want them to do , not demand them .
I think you have to kind of like there's a certain command that you have to have . There's a certain credibility that you got to have in order for people to really follow you and feel inspired by you .
Not necessarily right , Because I think there's some leaders who can and feel inspired by you .
What about empathy ? Not necessarily right , because I think there's some leaders who can inspire folks and be really systematic about things and be like . This is like , for example , like this is how we're going to treat people .
We're going to treat people the same way , no matter what , whether they are from this walk of life or from that walk of life , but we're going to be extremely systematic about it .
Right , you don't think that leader needs to be empathetic ?
I don't know . That's a good question . I don't know . I don't know .
Think about it .
Chew on that one . I think to be a good doctor , you should be empathetic . I don't know if , to be a good leader , you should be empathetic . I don't know if , to be a good leader , you should be empathetic . Those are two separate things .
Right , because in order to be a doctor , to be empathetic , you have to stop being a doctor , mindset wise and listen to a patient and figure out , put yourself in their shoes , right , like we had , you know , rest in peace . We had Jamal Dixon on the show , guys , that was several years ago . We had Jamal Dixon , rest in peace . But he was a doctor .
He was going through residency , he developed , you know , stomach cancer and he got surgery and , like , a couple of days later , you know , he's doing all the things that I would tell my patients not to do , right , ask food and all these different things . He just wanted to feel normal .
Normal , right I ?
remember that he just wanted to feel normal Right , normal , normal Right . I remember just want it to feel normal Right and that was his key thing . He's like I know , as a doctor , that I should not be eating this , I know that I should not be doing that , but I just I needed to do something to make myself , myself , feel normal .
And I think a lot of times doctors forget what it's like to be in their patient's shoes . So I don't know .
I think , in order to be a good doc , you have to have a bit of empathy , right . You got to have to put yourself in their want to lead , or who are looking for you to lead , and so sometimes I think leaders can get caught up in what they want to do and not necessarily hear what people actually want from them , from them , right ?
Which then begs the question should you be leading those particular people , or should you find other people who you know embody every single thing that you're wanting to do , right ?
so well , you got to get the right people on the right .
You have to get the right people on the bus you got to write , yeah , you got to get the right people on the bus , and I think that there are times you need to write bus driver too right , and I think that there are times you need the right bus driver too . Right .
But I think that there are times when , when you are leading Right that part of leading is also knowing when to step back and what to step down , right . I think that is part of leadership knowing when to know when hold them . Everybody know when to fold them .
Before we get into , before we go down into the , before we go into the weeds with it . I just want to let me let's bring it back to the top thing , which is , I think , just because you go to med school , just because you graduate , just because you go through residency , I don't think that that automatically makes you a leader , though .
I agree with you , you know .
I think that I think you , you gotta , I think you gotta learn that stuff through residency . You have to learn , like the hierarchy , you have to learn from people who are above you how they move Right , Because that's where most residents , most doctors , pick up their good habits or their bad habits .
Bad habits Somebody right Like shout out to Dr Durrett , right , yes , Robin , Our general surgery , our general surgery , our general surgery , preceptor for rotation , Like we got plenty of great you know habits from him on how to treat patients , on how to treat
¶ Confronting Toxic Behavior in Medicine
his fellow , you know colleagues and how to deal with nurses , how to deal with staff . You know those things .
OR how to handle emergencies or things that don't go right in the OR .
Yeah , so you pick up really good habits from people who are doing things that you haven't done before and then , as you get there , you know you are also possibly picking up bad habits . I can attest to that .
I picked up some bad habits in residency where it's almost like um , I just , you know , I became like I think I realized in my program that I you throwing stuff in the you throwing stuff in the oar . No , no , no .
You throwing body parts in the oar ?
No , no no , you throwing body parts in the oar . No man , no , by the time I'm a resident , by the time I'm in residency , by the time you're in residency , that stuff was gone right Like I can't think of . No , it wasn't . Well , in the program that I was in the hospital that I was in , you never heard about that stuff going on at grady .
I can't see at grady search texts . You heard of someone at grady doing that throwing . Uh , I didn't say a grady , no , okay greedy , so I don't know what's going on at your place , but in the south , in atlanta , I can't see , I couldn't .
I'd never heard of you know docs getting away with throwing stuff at search text oh yeah , is you about to catch a fade ? Like for real , for real , right , like nah , like we're not going back to that .
Nah , I've seen that . I've seen that I hadn't attending in my program .
But you was in Jersey , like y'all all like that's almost like in my program .
He would , you know , let's , let's say the harmonic didn't work , you know , for whatever reason , cause you know it never works , cause you didn't plug it in all the way , and then it makes that crazy noise . Right , that crazy . That's how you know it doesn't work . And he would like throw it . You know , like , oh , this thing doesn't work .
You know , and it's like , why are you throwing stuff in the oar ? Like , for what reason ? Like you do know , like this , this platform underneath us , is actually a body . It's a person . You can't just chuck things on this platform . That's a person .
But that's what that's , that type of behavior is like . That's some of the bad behavior that you're right . You're asking me did I pick up on it ? Absolutely not right , but I could be .
I wouldn't be surprised if , like that person you were telling me about , had a leadership position in a hospital , right , like he did , right , and it's just like that type of behavior , like he sure did I in residency , like that's the reason why I couldn't do fraternities In residency . I have a problem .
Hold on , hold on . I have a problem . Let me get comfy cozy for this one .
I don't like people making me feel a certain way just because they can't . They can't Because they can . So even to this day , whether it's neurosurgery or cardiothoracic surgery or whatever you consider to be at the high of the food chain and stuff , I don't like when any of them talk a certain way to people . I don't like it .
As a matter of fact , I confront them . Everywhere I've been at I'm like listen , dude or or girl , stop , stop it , stop it , because this behavior is unacceptable . If you cannot do this behavior outside of the hospital , then you should not be allowed to do this hospital , in the hospital .
And I always raise my voice and look at them to let them know that , listen , you're not getting away with me with this BS . I do not accept this whatsoever . Right , and obviously now I'm on the other end , like you can't do anything to me . Right , like we , I'm doing locums , what are you going to do ? Not ask me back , I don't care no-transcript .
Because that person scared them into doing things . And then they carry that on and I'm like no , no , no , no , no , can't do that on my watch .
Because , guys , I'll tell you right now , like I've seen neurosurgeons talk a lot of stuff and bow down to the C-suite or bow down to somebody you know like they will talk to really nasty , to a search tech , but then you know somebody says , well , you got to take call for like the next three weeks . They're like OK , boss , everybody's got a boss .
You know , it's just , it's crazy . Yeah , no , yeah , no , yeah , I agree with you . I don't think that just because you're a physician , that means that you're a leader .
You know , and I think , like you said , I think that people see someone with really bad habits , nasty attitude , in the C-suite or in some corner office somewhere , or some position that they desire at some point in their career , and then they take on those attributes because they think , well , it must've gotten them there because that's how they are , so that must
be what it means to be a leader , to be in that position . The reality is , there's a lot of people who are in those positions who , you know they're quote unquote underlings don't actually respect them . They don't respect them .
Well , they fear them , they fear them .
No , there's , so there's fearing them only , I think , in the fact that , yeah , this person , this person has a stake or has a say .
This person has a say in moving to the next right to the next position , or has a say in me staying at this hospital , right , like they fear the consequence of that person , you know , of confronting that person or whatever , but they don't actually respect that person .
I've seen this time I mean you and I see this a lot because we go to so many different hospitals for locums so there have been times where I've seen , like man , nobody really respects the chair of this department .
You know everybody's talking bad about him or her behind their backs and you know this person thinks that they're doing a great job , or they think that they're inspiring , or they think or they don't even care . They don't even care whether or not they're inspiring or they think , or they don't even care .
They don't even care whether or not they're inspiring or doing whatever . They just bark orders from the C-suite and you know that's it . I've seen this as physicians . I've seen this . You know who ? I see this a lot with Nurse managers . For some reason . I have seen this time and time again with nurse managers .
Nurses who get their master's degree in some sort of you know , administration , blah , blah , blah . They come from the floor and now they're nurse managers and , like the nurses have problems with them because scheduling or you know just logistics .
That's anybody . That's anybody . That's anybody who gets to middle management . Once you can move to middle management or even higher , in essence you're just basically an advocate for the CEO to see . You know the people who are in the , you know the upper echelons of the hospital who are making decisions .
You just become like a familiar face to tell the folks who are working down there to do A , b and C Right they taught how to read so that they , you could tell everybody else what to do . But hold on . Before you go into the next thing , I want to go back to my question of okay , so does empathy matter when you are a leader ?
Right , because when you pluck someone from the crowd and you now put them in a leadership position , does empathy become part of your leadership ? Because you knew what it was to be in the trenches like everybody else . Because you knew what it was to be in the trenches like everybody else .
But now you may ignore that because , well , you got what you wanted . You got a raise . You don't have to be on call . You don't understand what it's like . Yeah , they're going to stand out . Those are the ones who are really going to do well , but they're not going to stay there long . They're not going to stay there long .
Maybe , maybe , maybe I'm going to bet that they're not going to stay there long , and they're going to get shooed out really quick .
No , I think that there's a balance . I think that there's a balance .
Right , you can't get A balance of what ?
A balance of what there's , a balance of empathy versus what the C-suite wants you to do , right .
I think that you can be an advocate for people for whom you have you share empathy right , but also try to get the work done right that the C-suite is wanting you to do , and I think in doing that , you actually are able to come up with solutions that maybe the C-suite didn't think about right .
They didn't think about it because they don't have empathy for those people . So the question becomes right I was talking about this today with someone else , but you know what is the benefit ? What is the end goal of this ? What is the thing that needs to happen ?
Right , because a lot of times , the C-suite doesn't care how it happens , they just care that it happens . They just care that it happens . And so if you can figure out a way , through empathy , to get what the C-suite wants done without necessarily disrupting everything , everything you know from the in the trenches , you might actually find a nice balance , I think .
I think it's possible .
but I mean , that's your point . You're supposed to be the reasonable one , I'm the cynical one . I don't believe it . So let's move on to the next question or the next was I have for you . So how do you feel about working on holidays or on your birthday ? The reason why I'm bringing it
¶ Working on Holidays as Physicians
up is because I am working tomorrow . Tomorrow it is Juneteenth . Um , Dr Renee , am I a sellout for working on Juneteenth ? I ask very good questions all the time . You'll hear us . Empathy and leadership Ain't nobody care about that damn thing . Am I a sellout for working on Juneteenth ?
Yes , now you might ask the good . You might ask the good questions , but I give the good answers , okay .
I'll give you that . That's peace . That's peace . No , I don't think you're in sellout .
I do not work on my birthday .
For the record , hold on , let me , for the record , everyone , I am front loading my schedule . I'm taking on mad extra days because we are going to Ghana and we are going to be doing a medical mission and I'm going to be gone for a couple of weeks , several weeks , and I'm just trying to get my time .
I'm just trying to get my time in right now and stuff . So that's why you know I'm doing this , but anyway , go ahead Leaving your wife alone .
We're leaving your wife only Go ahead and answer the question . So I don't work on my birthday . That's a deal breaker .
Me too .
I don't work on my birthday , please . Up until like two years ago , you're still working on your birthday .
Yo , two years ago I worked on my birthday . It was the worst thing ever . I just want to say out there , Guys , it's the worst feeling .
Never work on your birthday . Y'all , never , ever do that . No , never ever . You be acting like uw too , like , oh well , you're gonna work on my birthday . They could fire me . You know , I have to work on my birthday and make sure that I'm there , because you know they might want to cut a cake .
You didn't fix your glasses there , oh , if I'm up there , oh , you know , and I'm like dude , you're not w2 , like you don't have to work on your birthday , but you , you be insistent and I'm just like whatever now other holidays over the last seven years .
I worked one time on my birthday just for the really guys , for the record guys , really we , we . I refer to renee as hyperbole renee because everything she says is in hyperbole . But let's just keep it moving , keep going .
I'm going to let you cook . I'm going to let you cook Anywho . No , but any other holiday , I think ? I don't think it's selling out . I think you can work on a holiday . How about Father's Day ?
Father's Day . I work too .
You did work on Father's Day .
I know you wasn't going to do nothing for me on Father's Day anyway .
Oh , wasn't gonna do nothing for me on father's day , anyway . Oh , you know what I'm saying . Okay , y'all wasn't gonna do nothing for me , please . Okay , father's day . I've never done anything for you for father's day , I've never done anything for you for father's day ?
well , why don't you listen ? Because it sounds like it sounds like you . You got a list , so go ahead and list it .
Go ahead and list it out first of all , you'll be working on father's day most of the time . Secondly , the last time you were off on father's day , we took you for a train ride , which you love trains and we took you for a train ride . What the hell did you take me on mother's day ?
hey , renee , that train ride was like 20 minutes oh really , first of all , it wasn't 20 minutes how long was it ?
like it was about an hour , like 40 minutes . That's number one . But okay , all right , listen , you ain't gotta worry about another father's day . Nothing again , ever , ever . As a matter of fact , I'm taking your kids away , that's it . You don't have to worry about it , you don't need .
You don't need father's day if you're not a father guys , the moral of this is don't , you know , pick your days that you're not gonna work , don't work it .
So that's how I look at it the moral of this is don't do nothing for father's day because you're gonna get accused of doing nothing for father's day because you're going to get accused of doing nothing for Father's Day . So that's the moral of the story , but hold on Any holiday that you want to work , I think , is fine .
Especially as locums , because you know me I— what's the most important holiday ? That you won't work ?
Besides my birthday .
Yeah , besides your birthday it's listening .
It's New Year's Asian Independence Day .
Why I don't work that Ever .
Because it's Haitian . I just said it it's Haitian Independence Day .
But what happens ? Tell the audience what happens . You know , we tell them all the time .
Okay , fine , we have a huge dinner , but before dinner , got to drink your soup , jumo . Got to drink your soup , jumu Got to drink your soup , Jumu .
One thing that we need to change is nobody's drinking the soup . Why do y'all say that ? Because this soup is thick as hell . Yo Y'all eating the soup , but anyway , keep moving .
You got to drink the soup . That's the literal translation Drink soup . So you got to drink your soup . And if I don't get my soup , that has to be the first thing in my stomach on New Year's Day . I can't risk it . I can't risk going back to 1803 . I gotta be in 1804 where there's freedom , and I can't do that .
If I'm on call I't I'll be stuck in 1803 for the rest of the year and I just I can't be stuck in 1803 . I need to be in 1804 . January 1st , 1804 , haitian Independence Day . So so , yeah , that's why I can't , like , I'm not
¶ Deal Breakers: Birthday and Family Time
risking it . Okay , I'm not risking it , but any , listen , wait , wait , wait . Any other holiday hold on , any other holiday .
I think it's fine . Yeah , I'm about to . I'm gonna mute you , sir . I don't know why you're telling me a question . I'm going to mute you like right now .
How are ? You gonna get to the point but you keep , you keep interrupting me . Alfred , I want you to mark this as interruption , because last time he said he don't interrupt me . Okay , thank you Actually , alfred . Play from where he had said that he didn't interrupt me last time , okay , and then show him interrupting me .
I'm going to mute you .
I don't know why you're doing that . I'm going to mute you , right now I don't have to get to the point you keep interrupting me . Okay , anyway . So , like I was saying , as locums , I think that our jobs for a very large part is to make our colleagues' jobs a little bit easier .
We come in , we take on stuff , we take on days that our colleagues who are W-2 don't want to or cannot take on , stuff . We take on days that our colleagues who are w2 don't want to or cannot take on . And so that's why I think if you work any holiday , I think you're fine . That's all I wanted to say . Now , what about you anyway ?
well , me it's . I don't work my birthday and I don't work thanksgiving thanksgiving .
Why not thanksgiving , what's the matter ? Because you love the pilgrims so much . I don't work my birthday and I don't work Thanksgiving . Thanksgiving why not Thanksgiving ? What's the matter ?
Because you love the pilgrims so much . That's the day that my family gets together , and you know we don't get together too much .
That's the day we get together and have fun .
So that's it . It's my birthday , that's it .
Your birthday and Thanksgiving , okay , and your birthday .
That remains to be seen . I've never worked on your birthday and a kid's birthday . The kid's birthday . I don't work on a kid's birthday , that's it .
Okay , yeah , same here . I've never worked on my kid's birthday , so those are deal breakers . Okay , what other questions do you have , since you say I ask janky questions ?
no , I don't have any questions . So in the next segment we're going to be talking about a q a from reddit , where we're going to be talking about attending sleeping on the job .
Mmm .