Deferring life: Holistic Fertility Solutions. #419 - podcast episode cover

Deferring life: Holistic Fertility Solutions. #419

Jul 16, 20241 hr 7 minEp. 419
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Episode description

SEND US A TEXT MESSAGE!!! Let Drs. Nii & Renee know what you think about the show!

Can balancing a demanding medical career with starting a family be more challenging than we realize? Tune in for an insightful conversation with our guest Michelle Oravitz for a fresh perspective on fertility and holistic health, enriched with personal stories, expert insights, and actionable advice.

Things to expect in this episode:

  • Starting your family and your career.
  • Infertility & Delaying your fertility
  • What Is Ayurvedic Medicine?
  • Going for Acupuncture and why.
  • Freezing your eggs & Starbucks fertility hack.
  • How Michelle helps her patients deal with the things they are experiencing.


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Transcript

Delaying Childbearing and Career Choices

Speaker 1

The first time I got pregnant , I went to my friend . She's an acupuncturist and she does the needling . She leaves the room and she says just relax . I don't know what happened , but my mind literally went to almost seeing my inner organs , like seeing the egg , seeing myself ovulate . It was very strange . A few weeks later I found out I was pregnant .

Oh my God . About 18 months later we try another IVF cycle because we're trying to get pregnant again . The IVF cycle didn't even work at all , but at that point I wasn't doing acupuncture anymore . Yeah , so I go to her and I'm like I don't know what to do . She says come to me , she does her needling In October . My cycle goes 24 days , 25 , 26 .

I'm at 32 days , I call her and I say listen , you either threw me into menopause or I'm pregnant . I was pregnant . This is so weird . Explain that yes .

Speaker 3

Yes , yo , yo yo . What's good everyone . Welcome to another episode of Docs Outside the Box . I'm your host , dr Nii , joined by the habitual line stepper , also known as my wife , also known as the best OB doc out there . I'm talking about Dr . Don't take up all the hot air . It is hot as hell in this basement . Oh , my God , y'all . It is hot .

This is true New York City . We in Jersey . This is true New York City summer . You know 1996 , 95 , 94 summer , where you go and you open up the fire hydrants it's not even summer yet , though , but it's hot , and we record in the basement and we're going to make this work and it's a vibe . It's a vibe , y'all .

So , if you know what I'm talking about , there's no air conditioner down here . We just got this dehumidifier that's actually making it hotter and stuff , but that's just the way , how it is , y'all , and we're just so excited to have y'all here . But listen , let's jump right into this y'all . What are we talking about today ? Come on , let's get into this .

Speaker 1

We're talking about starting , not just your career . So for those of you who are not watching Nia's showing his Father's Day gift , even though we're about to talk about a woman's topic no , that's not a woman's topic . Actually , it's not a woman's topic .

Speaker 3

Shout out to my son , my oldest son .

He did a project called my Super Dad and it's basically a coloring book , or he created a coloring thing of how I'm'm the most amazing dad out there , because I am and for all you all you dads out there who are like yo , I am like no , no , you got , you're not , I'm the best dad you have this super dad workbook , for example , like here's a picture right

here that says right here , right , you see how amazing is it says my dad watches lila in the loop on television . When he listens to music it's always eddie murphy , right ? Like how many of y'all , how many of y'all kids know you that much that they know who you listen to ? Because eddie murphy was like the best artist for a while .

Hi , okay , he was the king of hip-hop in 1986 , 1986 .

Speaker 1

Put a tree in your butt , put a bubble bead in your butt .

Speaker 3

Put a clock in your butt , put a big rock in your butt . Yeah , I don't think so Yo , let's jump into this topic yo . Anyway let's talk about this topic for real . Yo , Dr Knee's on one .

Speaker 1

Yeah , you are on one , you need to get off one .

Speaker 3

But no , we're talking about and you can't be tapping the table because you're tapping the camera . Okay , that's fine . Podcast etiquette .

Speaker 1

We are talking about starting your family and starting your career , and when the two potentially conflict , right ? I think this is not a woman's topic in particular . Right , because women and men couples can experience infertility . You and I went through our own infertility process .

Speaker 3

I hate when you say that what this is a woman's this is not a woman's what men can't be infertile . The people who make the final decision is ultimately going to be you , though , right .

Speaker 1

No , what does that mean ? What does that mean Lee ?

Speaker 3

Okay , we pardon . Okay , no problem , go ahead . No , we are potting , so you're telling me , so men can't be infertile . Okay , from that standpoint , okay , good , okay .

Speaker 1

I mean , but we're talking about fertility .

Speaker 3

But you said we're talking about it's two to tango , but you're talking about delaying right . So we're assuming that if we're delaying , that , both parties are able to reproduce at the same ? No , that's not necessarily true All right , keep it moving , that's not necessarily true right .

Speaker 1

People delay their fertility not knowing whether or not they are fertile or whether or not they are infertile .

Speaker 3

So we talking about how , like listen , if you in your 20s and you're like , look , I'm trying to get into medical school , I don't have time to get pregnant right now , let me wait till I finish .

But by the time you finish and you become an attending , when you're making a lot more money and you think that you're going to have a lot more freedom , you're talking about hitting that finish line at what ? Mid 30s ? Ok For dudes , we good For women . What does that mean ?

Nii , there's no biological clock , so to speak , with men , whereas with women there is that biological clock , right ?

Speaker 1

OK Nii , yes , In that respect yes , but we're talking about fertility , we're not just talking about biological clocks . But why are you acting like what I'm saying is off ? No but you're saying that it's a woman's topic and it's not just so we got off of that now .

Speaker 3

but I'm just talking about this situation . Like you act , like the situation that I gave to you .

Speaker 1

So you delayed fertility , didn't you ? I did , oh , exactly , so , hello , that's what I'm talking about . I'm talking about delaying your childbearing , right , whether you are a man or a woman . Now , do women have less of an advantage in terms of delaying their childbearing ? Yes , absolutely right , because quote unquote the biological clock is ticking .

X , y and Z Women go through menopause . Men do experience a little bit of less fertility as they get older , but not to Right , but it's not apples to apples at all , robert De Niro . Right , it's not apples to apples at all , right . So from that respect , yes , and you and I went through our own infertility journey .

Respect , yes , and you and I went through our own infertility journey . We graduated from med school , graduated from residency and then , a couple of years after we graduated from residency is when we got married , right , and from there we actually Seven years after medical school , we got married . Yes , Seven years after medical school , we got married .

Yes , seven years after medical school , we got married .

Speaker 3

And then it was time for the baby making .

Speaker 1

It was time for the baby making , but there was no baby made . There was no baby made and we could not figure out , you know , necessarily , how we were going to make this baby happen , especially after we started doing IVF . So we jumped straight through IVF , right , so we didn't have to go through IVF first .

But because of my age in particular that's where you talk about the clock ticking right you don't have to smirk me , you don't have to smirk . What are you smirking ? About Nothing . What are you smirking ? No , tell , we pot it right . Tell we pot it right , we bought it right . So so tell me about the smirk , what's the smirk ?

Speaker 3

and I'm just saying that it we tried at first and then , um , I think , because of your training and you did some training , in what fertility ? No , I did ob training but then you do like , didn't you do something with some attendings who are like fertility specialists and stuff ? That's part of my OB training . So you did training in fertility .

Speaker 1

I did OB training , which fertility is a part of it .

Speaker 3

I did some general surgery training . Oh my gosh . I mean , I did some neurosurgery in general . So I trained a little bit in neurosurgery . Okay Right , but anyway , keep it moving . So that's all I'm just saying is like , okay , so go ahead .

Speaker 1

so we know we're trying to talk about the smirk , but whatever we gotta talk , yeah yo renee is on one today , guys , I think because she's hot , you know .

Speaker 3

Let's get it moving . I'm drinking my izzy I'm good .

Speaker 1

what's the name of ? Do the right thing ? Freaking powder keg up in here . I have today's forecast for you Hot , but anyway , so yeah .

Speaker 3

This is what happens when I let you host .

Speaker 1

I'm not hosting . I thought we were just potting .

Speaker 3

Okay , go ahead .

Speaker 1

What is wrong with you ?

Speaker 3

today Nothing Go ahead , keep it moving .

Speaker 1

This is what the heat wave is doing , folks . So , yeah , so we went through our own infertility journey . We jumped straight to IVF , yes .

However , ivf did not work right , and that's one of the things that a lot of times people don't understand is that science and technology isn't always going to be the way that you think it's going to be right , because you think , oh , you got an egg , you got a sperm , you put them together , they fertilize and , you know , you replace it back into the uterus

and you should have a baby . But that that is not what happened to us , right ?

Speaker 3

So several cycles I might have had I think you had at least five or six cycles we went through , yeah , five or six cycles , five or six miscarriages . Yeah , didn't work .

Speaker 1

Right , didn't work . Eventually I started doing acupuncture and started doing massage , and I think my massage therapist was doing Reiki Actually that's the one we kind of don't touch the person but you give it whatever , anyway . So she was doing a little bit of that , but also doing , you know , regular massage as well .

Little bit of that , but also doing , you know , regular massage as well . And after a while we decided , I think , after what ? The seventh miscarriage ? We decided that we were going to pause . Right , we were going to pause .

Speaker 3

And you said I said that you should consider taking time off from work so that you could focus on getting pregnant .

Speaker 1

You said I think you need to quit your job . Those were your exact words , actually , I think you need to quit your job . And I was like , yeah , I don't think that's going to work .

But then , on a long drive to and from wherever I was going , I had the epiphany that I had helped so many people , you know , grow their families , and now it was time to grow ours , and I wasn't able to focus 100% on that . And so that's when I decided that you were right and I put in for my resignation . I was what you were right .

See , I don't have a problem saying that you were right . I don't have a problem saying that .

Speaker 3

I was what .

Speaker 1

You were right and I put in for my resignation . I had a three-month clause right , so I had to basically put in a three-month notice and during that time we didn't do any more IVF at all . But what I did continue to do was but what we were continuing to do is but keep moving to do , but what we were continuing to do is we keep moving .

What I did continue to do was I continued to um do acupuncture and do massage , and I did that , and what else were we doing ? can . Can I finish the story ? Because now you tell me I'm hosting , but now you be like you're interrupting me , so let me tell the story , so anyway . So I did acupuncture and massage and I alternated those every week .

So I did once a week and I alternated every week for about three months and , yes , we did a little hanky-panky . A little , a little Little hanky-panky , but I don't think it was a little the idea was the idea was that we were going to do yet another IVF cycle . Right , we were going to do it . Yeah , another IVF cycle .

At the end when I , when I , finally finished working , the problem was that I was pregnant before we could do our next IVF cycle , well , which wasn't really a problem . It was a problem for IVF , but it wasn't a problem for us , and that's how we had our first son . So , yeah , so I'm interested to speak to our guest who's going to be coming on .

Her name is Michelle Orovitz and she is the founder of Wholesome Lotus and she essentially focuses on infertility , delaying your infertility because of , or delaying fertility because of , career , and all kinds of topics related to that . I believe she's an acupuncturist .

She'll tell us more about herself , but I wanted to kind of get into that topic , especially because I think we have an audience who is susceptible to having a very similar experience that we had .

Speaker 3

Yeah , of course , like the entire , all of them , the majority of , I think , students are delaying their fertility to finish their schooling Because it's like I ain't got time to be pregnant . Why are you trying to go through residency and stuff ?

Or I ain't got time to chase no kids while , like you know , it happens , it's tough , but you see few and far between of people doing that . So let's bring on Michelle . Chase no kids while , like you know , it happens , it's tough , but you see few and far between people doing that .

So let's bring on Michelle so we can talk about this , all right , yeah , michelle Orvitz , welcome to Docs Outside the Box , how you doing .

Speaker 2

Thank you so much for having me . I'm doing great .

Speaker 1

Awesome , we're so happy to have you on here .

We definitely wanted to get into talking about this topic of fertility , careers delaying and all the things that go with it , Because our audience , of course , as you know , mainly physicians , medical students , residents , and many of them are not starting their families in the times that maybe people who are not on that path are starting their fertility journeys or

their childbearing years . But first tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do , and then we'll jump into what should we do in order to preserve our fertility or deal with the fact that our fertility isn't exactly going the way we thought it would ?

Speaker 2

Yes , absolutely , and thank you so much for having me . So my name is Michelle Orbitz and my background actually started in a completely

Exploring Ayurveda and Acupuncture

different field . I used to be an architect , working in New York City . I was in totally like knee deep in corporate America and I had irregular periods and that's how it really started and I went to . I went to try to like fix it .

I mean fix there's no fix , but like I would only get the birth control pill and that was like the only solution that I had . And I would go on and off , on and off , until I finally said something has like I need to do something different . So I found an acupuncturist and he completely regulated my period and I was like this stuff is insane .

And I felt better too . I felt better overall , like less stress , and I also found that like at work I wasn't taking things as personal , like I just felt overall better , like my energy was was moving more freely .

So this is really cool , cause I went for one thing , but then I had all these other benefits and then it just lit a fire of interest in me and I wanted to work with people . Like most of the time at work I was just in front of the computer . So it was something that I was really interested in working with people .

Plus , like I think when we start out as patients , we're really amazed by our own transformation , and it was something that I really wanted to , to pass on to other people , and eventually went back to school for Ayurveda . My husband's a doctor , actually he's an emergency medicine doctor , he's a DO , and he actually pushed me to go back to school .

He's like you don't love what you do , just like study this . So it's kind of cool because we have East and West and I learn a lot from him and he learns a lot from me .

Speaker 3

So that's pretty much it . I feel like you do a lot of acupuncture on him when he comes home . I do With all the stress that he has as an ED doc Amazingly , though , he's perfect for his job .

Speaker 2

He is built like nobody else I've ever met . He just can handle like he doesn't take it in . He's like really easy with stress . He's got such a chill personality I'm like I would be freaked out . I would get emotionally involved into every case like it would be completely different .

Speaker 1

Yeah , I think , I think that's a lot of doctors who just you know it's hard to separate out , so I so I heard you say you was study Ayurveda , cause it was a two year program .

Speaker 2

It was a little small like shorter than the acupuncture , and then , once we had kids , I eventually went like knew I was going to go back to school for acupuncture .

Speaker 3

What is Ayurveda ? What is that ?

Speaker 2

Um , so it's kind of like the cousin of acupuncture . It's , um , it's Indian , ancient Indian medicine and similar to acupuncture . The real goal is to create balance . So they look at like body types and each body types has uh , elements that sometimes is stronger . Some , some people have like more fire .

Based on that , um , it's kind of like we have like these ecosystems in our bodies . Based on that or something like that , kind of like we have like these ecosystems in our bodies based on that ?

Speaker 3

Is that like the qi or something like that Kind of similar ?

Speaker 2

to that Similar . Well , they call it prana and Chinese medicine calls it qi , and that's kind of like life force , vitality , but also on top of that we also have like elements in our body . Sometimes we have more like water and dampness , and that shows up in many different ways .

So , depending on what we have in our constitution , ayurvedic medicine will prescribe herbs and then also diet that has certain elements . So , for example , if you look at leaves or cilantro , which is very cooling , certain foods are very cooling . So if somebody has a lot of heat , they would give them cooling herbs or food that would lower the heat .

So it's basically whatever they have too much of , we give them the opposite . So it's kind of similar , but then also on top of that they do a lot of body work , massage work . With our rating minute enemas , that's like a big thing too , really .

Speaker 3

Yep , I bet you're looking at , is it prana ?

Speaker 2

um . So prana , yeah , prana is basically um similar to chi like the , the meaning of chi , which is like life force , vitality but it's also like it also contains oxygen , but it also contains oxygen , but it also is very intelligent and it really is what animates our bodies .

Speaker 3

I think for me it'd be cool , Like that's my , that's my , that's my prana . I don't know if y'all could tell that and stuff . Michelle , I got a , I got a question for you .

I got a question for you because I think you know , for , as you know , a couple , we're both in medicine and we are used to like qualitative excuse me , quantitative type things , right , I's and O's and you know ones and zeros and it's data driven and everything Right .

So so we did , we did IVF about four or five times and then , after like the fourth time , then she said well , maybe we should consider acupuncture . I'm like acupuncture , Like we got this IVF thing , let's just do this IVF thing ? Why are we going to do IVF ? So I'm very interested why are we going to do acupuncture ?

So I was very interested in your story as to like how you came to a point of deciding to go that acupuncture way , Because when you described it it was kind of like , well , I tried this , and then you kind of what was that decision process like ? To go and try something that's kind of a little bit off the beaten path ? Was that a hard decision ?

Speaker 2

When I went to an acupuncturist , so basically for many like and I talked to my husband a lot about this . Like Western medicine has amazing , like I mean , thank God we have antibiotics and there's certain certain medicines that are really strong , with things that are more subtle .

There's certain certain medicines that are really strong , with things that are more subtle . Natural medicine , I think , does well , you know where it's like diet , herbals , something that's not quite as strong .

So I the only solution I really got from Western medicine was the birth control pill , and it never made sense to me even back then , because I was like , okay , what's going to make me feel like it's regular , but it's not , it's not really regular , cause if I get off , we're not really fixing the problem .

And when I was 17 , I was like this doesn't make sense . Even at 17 , I didn't know anything about this . My grandmother , though my grandmother did talk to me a lot about like food and plants , and so I remember she did plant seeds way back when about nature and kind of like we , you know what the creator that made us creates .

Everything that the creator made is for us like naturally . So I remember that kind of like struck a chord somewhere like in my subconscious mind , and so eventually I mean I went for years of on and off the birth control pill and I was like At 25 I went away for about three months .

I traveled and I was not that was one of my off times not on the birth control pill for like over a year , and the whole time I was away about three months I didn't get my period . So this is kind of like how irregular things were . So when I came back I was already 25 .

And I said to my mom you know , I really need to do something different because this isn't normal . And that's when she found the acupuncturist and I went to him and he was the only one that regulated me . And what I love too is that he asked me so many questions .

He got really into the intricacies of my inner workings , like how I felt , how I slept , my poop , the shape , the color , like even my blood .

Speaker 1

I mean to get really detailed everything , so many details .

Speaker 2

So , even my dreams , like how do I dream ? Do I remember my dreams ? Do they disturb me ? Do I wake up in the middle of it Like all these weird things ? And I was like why does that Everything's relevant ? It seems like you know . So it was . It was definitely blew me away as something that worked , but without the side effects .

Speaker 1

Yeah , I think I had a similar experience . Right , because you know knees to knees question , you know well why did I want to do acupuncture , and that's not something that I learned necessarily . In school . We talked about acupuncture . In school , we learned about that was a lecture .

Speaker 3

It was not even right . That was a lecture , not even Of all the lectures , that was like one . It was like a traditional Chinese medicine lecture right .

Speaker 1

Where they taught us a little bit . But I'm always of the belief that Western medicine can't be the only thing , right , because there are so many different remedies for centuries before Western medicine was ever a thing , and so to me , eastern medicine was something that was never off the table .

And so , you know , I decided let's try acupuncture , because one actually one is that we're osteopathic physicians .

Oh , so , like my husband , yeah , yeah , so we're osteopaths , and one of the things that really struck me is the you know , the philosophy of osteopathic medicine , which , you know , the body is a unit , and especially , the body has the ability to heal itself .

Body has the ability to heal itself , and for me I thought , okay , well , if I have the potential to actually reproduce , then I'd like to give my body that chance to be able to do that on its own .

And so , after so many cycles of Western medicine , of actually pumping things into my body which I didn't have a problem with and I still don't have a problem with Obviously I'm an OBGYN and it works for some people , but it wasn't working for me , right ?

You know it just wasn't working for me , and so I felt like I needed some sort of some sort of balance , if you will . So I felt the same way as you that just something was missing .

Speaker 2

For sure , and also probably the majority of my patients are going through IVF and I'm supporting them . So I support them with egg quality and I support them with the uterine lining , depending on where they're at with their IVF . So it works

Navigating Fertility Challenges and Solutions

hand in hand . And there was many times where people come to me they want to try naturally and I'm like you know what I think that you might benefit from , like possibly looking into seeing if you have endometriosis , possibly surgery . Like you know , the two work amazingly together and so that's where I think we really that's the future , I think .

Speaker 1

Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 3

What's the type of typical client that you have , and are you dealing with those who are mainly a little bit older , those who are maybe more professional ? What's the typical client that you're dealing with that you're able to perform your services on ?

Speaker 2

Most of them are either approaching 40 or after 40 . And then the oldest one that just recently got pregnant is 46 .

Speaker 3

So it's a pretty cool things you know like yeah .

Speaker 2

I like . I like challenges . I'll be honest , and it's to me it's like I got to figure it out , like so . So it kind of works . You know , in our world you know like to try to figure out what people need . But yes , a lot of people are professionals .

And there was a point during COVID you know , because I live in Florida a lot of people were coming in from New York and a lot of people were very driven , professional women got married a little later . So it was the same thing . And it's funny because today I was actually having this thought . I was doing yoga and I just kind of randomly had this thought .

I mean , I literally would suggest to my own kids , my own girls , if they get to the age of 30 and they don't meet somebody , freeze your eggs , I think it would be silly not to . That would be probably the top thing that I would recommend .

I see people now who luckily froze their eggs at a really peak time and are now fertilizing it with their husbands and their good quality right , yeah , we had probably about two years ago .

Speaker 3

There was a real famous influencer , medical influencer she's ob right , yes , yeah , she's ob , and she talked about how she froze her eggs . She went through that process , yeah , you know , because similar , I can't remember the specifics , but she decided to freeze her eggs so that later on you know when she's ready .

Ready , like you said , like there's , you know that's .

Speaker 2

It's expensive , though it is very expensive , it is , it is um . That's the only drawback , but it's if you could do it , and I think that they do have loans and I've even had people work at Starbucks temporarily because they have amazing benefits .

Speaker 1

Let's talk about that , because that's a thing .

Speaker 3

Yeah , oh it's a thing , so people will change a job necessarily .

Speaker 1

Not too long ago I heard of a doctor who took a job at Starbucks . Not gave up being a doctor , but took a job at Starbucks because they have amazing , amazing fertility benefits . They do they ?

Speaker 2

do so . Listen , I mean it's there , why wouldn't you take advantage of it ? So people do . I've had some of my patients do that and I'm like that is so smart Like honestly yeah .

Speaker 1

If you're a resident .

Speaker 2

That's a whole other thing . If you're a , resident right .

Speaker 1

That might not necessarily work , but maybe as a med student I don't know . I mean , maybe you technically shouldn't be working in medical school , they say , but who knows ? Or if you're really early attending , you know that might be the way to go .

You know , take a few months work at Starbucks right after you finish your residency , before you start your permanent job as an attending no totally that might be a thing .

Speaker 2

Listen , when I , early on after graduating , I studied architecture , I worked as a waitress for the first couple of months because I met a lot of people and it was fun and it was like I just rather have that freedom and get to know a new town before .

Speaker 1

I start working . Yeah , yeah , so you know that . Yeah , that definitely is a thing . The Starbucks fertility hack is definitely a thing , you know .

Speaker 3

We just had this discussion about why I just found an article that says some Starbucks workers forego paychecks to access IVF features , ivf treatments . Some workers say generous benefits like IVF coverage don't make up , oh really . So this is kind of talking about , but I guess it's very well known that Starbucks has amazing IVF benefits .

Speaker 1

Yeah , Amazing so yeah , we were just having this discussion about whether or not this is a female problem problem , and my thought is that it is not simply a female problem , but someone I won't say who kind of sort of disagrees with me .

Speaker 3

Well , I just said that this is something that women have to deal with and have to think about , more so than men , because it's not really like men , who are known not to have , um , men who are not known to have fertility issues , right , you normally hear about the Al Pacino's , you hear about the Robert De Niro's , right ?

So you're like all right , so I'm going to be having kids into my eighties and nineties .

Speaker 2

It's just not the same anymore . I'm sorry to tell you this .

Speaker 3

Um , it is declining right now , it really is declining sperm quality .

Speaker 2

Sperm um , you know , sperm count is declining . Unfortunately , there was a study that just recently came out finding nanoplastics in semen . So that's environmental factors . I mean , there's so many different things right now impacting both male and female fertility .

Speaker 1

Oh yeah , absolutely . I think you know delaying fertility is often thought of as being a female problem , but you know it really is a problem of men , women , couples , essentially , 100% yeah , and you know you can't just peg it on one or the other . And being an OBGYN , I will tell you , I have had patients who I remember .

I had one patient who came to me adamant , adamant that she was the infertile one . She had gone to a previous doctor and they had done some of the workup , not all of the workup . They had given her Clomid and she conceived . And so when she came back after some years , after she had had her first one , she came to me and she said listen , I need Clomid .

And I said well , I need a workup because I don't have any records on you , I don't have anything . And she goes no , it is me the last time I took Clomid .

Then we got pregnant and I said to her listen , I typically treat couples when I'm treating infertility and it's because you never know , I could do all the things to you , but if your husband is infertile you will not get pregnant . So she was so adamant . I said to her I will make a deal with you .

I will give you three months to get pregnant , I'll give you the Clomid , I will give you three months to get pregnant , but if at that time you are not pregnant , you will go through the entire workup and you will not argue with me . Yes , deal , great . Three months later she comes back . She is not pregnant .

Speaker 2

I order a semen analysis and it's the sperm wow , look at that and you know it's interesting that you say that actually the point that I was making , or that I made and that you corrected me on .

Speaker 3

Actually there's a there's an article in reviews in urology . This came out in 2011 . It's showing that obviously , as the male ages there are , there is decreasing in fertility . I'm just saying that the prevailing thought is that men don't have to worry about this and stuff .

Speaker 1

I think it's a misconception . Yeah , it's a misconception .

Speaker 2

It's one of those myths that people take as fact . And what's interesting is I had another patient who struggled . She had secondary , so she had her first two boys with her husband . So the thought is it's her , you know .

She thought she went to an RE who didn't really want to look at her husband or didn't even mention it , and she was like , why don't you look at my husband ? So she wasn't crazy about him , but her FSH was really high , so it could have been like all roads pointing to her . She came to me for a year , finally figured out .

The husband had a varicocele and it turned out they did . The surgery waited a couple of months and they got pregnant .

Speaker 1

There you go , yeah , so you just never know , true 100% it's important ? Yeah , it's important . I've heard men important , you know if you're . You know I've heard men before as well . You know I never tried to get pregnant , tried to get anybody pregnant before . Or you know I've been with someone for a long time and you know she didn't get pregnant .

You can't tell just based on your previous experience whether or not you are the infertile one . You just can't tell .

Speaker 3

You cannot . You're right , it needs to be evaluated . I got a question For your typical patient , for a typical , you know who will come to see you , like what is the typical amount of time that you're working with them and like , like , like the timescale , and what are we talking about ? Like on a week to week type basis ? How does that look ?

Speaker 2

So , um , of course everybody's different , but I'm going to say kind of like as a general , like weekly does um weekly or more sometimes people , if they really have a lot going on , I'll suggest twice a week just in the beginning , just to get their bodies kind of like used to the treatment and kind of getting more into self healing mode .

Um , it's about the so I see the patients and then check their pulse every single time , kind of like do a little touch base the first sessions , like really covering the whole history , so we're able to just kind of see what's new . And then the needle retention is about 25 to 30 minutes and then so all in all like 45 to 60 minutes , yeah .

Speaker 3

Yeah .

Speaker 2

For follow-ups .

Speaker 3

Okay , and this is usually like acupuncture till they get pregnant or acupuncture through pregnancy . How does that work ?

Speaker 2

Depends . Sometimes they're doing IVF and then that's when I'll treat for IVF , but I always work on egg quality , regardless if it's IVF or if it's natural . Sometimes we'll start including herbs not with IVF . I will never use herbs with IVF because they do have a hormonal stimulating effect and it can counteract some of the hormones that people are taking .

So that's when I'll just rely on supplements . So , depending on what is going on and if they're able to do hormones sometimes I mean , um , herbals and then sometimes we work on getting their menstrual cycle regulated . Some people have amenorrhea after coming off the birth control pill which they've gotten for 20 years straight , sometimes , um , so we work on that .

Sometimes it's hypothalamic , so we'll work on diet and maybe lessening the intensity of exercise . So really depends . Typically I always say give it at least three and a half months to really see a difference , because it's it's not .

We work very much on kind of nature's rhythm and timeline , so it's a little slower than what I think a lot of people are used to , just in modern day times .

Speaker 3

Yeah , how about ? How about men ? Do men ever ? Do you ever have men as patients ?

Speaker 2

When women are able to get their husbands or the men come , I'm always happy , because it doesn't always happen . Um I really would love to have both . I really would love to have both . Sometimes it's , um , it could be like pulling teeth . So what I do suggest is certain supplements , kind of through the .

The wife and I'm just like , okay , have a , maybe take a good multi and then um you know certain ones that can help with , like uh quality , sperm quality as well .

Speaker 3

Right , oh , okay , so so it's . So . It's men who not they don't necessarily have to have a condition , it could just be no , it's like prenatals gotcha . So like women , um , who are healthy , take prenatals men benefit from from multi as well .

Speaker 2

And here's the thing too most of the time they'll check the count , they'll check the shape , the morphology and um and the motility , but they're not going to check the shape , the morphology and um and the motility , but they're not going to check the DNA . So they don't know if the DNA is good .

Speaker 3

I think everybody benefits , whether it's a woman or a man from antioxidants . Right Now . What , what , what are , whether it's the , the points that you're hitting or is it , is it triggering or what's the ?

A lot of the um , the terminology I'm not really good at , so please correct me , but the points that you are going after on the body , what exactly is the effect that you're countering ? Like , is it the sympathetic , is the parasympathetic ? Like , take us through that also , because I think people are really interested in that also .

Speaker 2

Yeah , I'll give you kind of like a generalized so like I pretty much will cover like three different main parts within acupuncture . So Chinese medicine in general has many different modalities or tools . The two main ones are herbals and acupuncture .

Herbals is like the pharmacy , but it's just done with like more natural plants and things that we'll find in nature , versus acupuncture , which is kind of mechanical , electrical I like to say , and so one's chemical , one's mechanical , electrical . I'm just really simplifying it though , just to kind of give people an idea .

And then there's three categories within acupuncture .

Understanding Acupuncture and Infertility Grief

One is the most familiar one , which is points that are on meridians , and those meridians , even though we can access them in certain points which are called acupuncture points , where they come close to the surface of the skin , those same meridians run very deep into the body .

So we're almost able to well we are able to access areas deep within the body , within that channel , in areas that could be like , say , your hand , your hand can access digestive system . So there are certain points with certain indications , and then we create kind of a symphony of points or like a protocol based on a person's pattern , so whatever we diagnose .

So the first category points are points that belong to channels , and usually all of these channels or meridians are going deep within the body . So it's almost like highways , and then every so often with the highways they go really fast but then they go out and there's little exit points where you can enter and exit .

So , that's kind of like how and I'm simplifying it so that people can get an idea it's like a circuit of energy , and so that's one aspect . And what these meridians carry are chi , which is life force vitality .

Very similar , it's the same thing as prana , but it's just kind of described a little differently , which is interesting because you see , in different cultures , you know , people point to the same thing but they describe it a little different . But it really is . It's kind of life force vitality , it's basically what gets us to move .

And the reason why it's hard to dissect and understand is because you can only see it on a living person . You can't study it on a cadaver , because it no longer is there . It animates the body , it's what gives us life , and so that is one aspect .

The other category is there are certain points that are individual , they're freestanding and they're their own thing . So they're like extraordinary points . They're just unique in their own point , that don't belong to anything . Then you have the auricular , so the whole ear basically reflects your whole body .

So there are even some acupuncturists and practitioners that only do the ear . That's like their specialty , it's like their own you know thing and they'll even diagnose based on how the ear looks and feels , so like if it's red in certain spots . They like , know , know the whole map .

Most of us , if we specialize in a particular thing , we'll memorize the points that are applicable . So I do a lot of times like the uterus , the ovaries , the endocrine . Sometimes I'll do a combination for the sympathetic , parasympathetic .

So most of the time with acupuncture going to the nervous system , most of the time with acupuncture going to the nervous system , it regulates the nervous system . So it does get you . Sometimes if you're most of us are amped up , most of us are in sympathetic , and so it gets you in the parasympathetic .

It kind of relaxes the body and what I find is that by itself , when you first start to do that , create symptoms and people feel really tired , but all that is it's like . I always compare like to having a wine at the end of a week . You're feeling energized , you're like on adrenaline . All of a sudden , you like have that wine , you're like done .

Speaker 3

And it doesn't make you like .

Speaker 2

It's almost what it does . Is it relaxes you enough to feel your own tiredness ? And that's kind of what acupuncture can do , and in the beginning people are like I cannot wake up , I'm so exhausted , and people with like insomnia they're like , but now it's like the opposite . Now I can't even wake up .

They're like that for a good month , and then , all of a sudden , they have energy , they're a lot more focused and their their sleep is a lot more effective .

Speaker 1

Yeah .

Speaker 2

Yeah .

Speaker 3

Thank you for that . I appreciate that .

Speaker 1

Describing that . I can definitely say that .

Speaker 3

Like they covered that in that one lecture , though .

Speaker 1

In that one you don't even move on .

Speaker 2

They move on really quick so that's why it's like I was asking these questions , because I think the to experience , to know and to recognize . So , that's interesting , because you actually felt it as a patient , and so the actual optimal state we're really looking for is the state of homeostasis , and this is the one thing that we can 100% have a word for .

In Western and Eastern , they call it the yin and yang , harmony , balance , and then Western medicine calls it homeostasis , and we know that nothing can survive without homeostasis . So we can all agree on that addictive is always that .

Speaker 1

Oh well , you know it's a woman's problem . But we know that infertility affects couples and the grief of infertility that's one thing that I don't think a lot of people talk about enough . When you are treating patients , particularly couples , are you ? Are you seeing that grief ? You know what ?

What are , what are some of the things that your patients are coming to you with , especially because it's a tough subject ?

Speaker 3

Yeah , I mean , it's a very tough subject , you know , and I can definitely say that we've .

Speaker 1

We have experienced , as a couple , that grief of , you know , having that hope that IVF was going to work . We go through the process .

Speaker 3

Resentment too , isn't it ?

Speaker 1

Right , I mean , there could be some resentment .

Speaker 2

Oh yeah , I see that actually it's one of the check marks . I put emotions on my intake form and a lot of I see a lot of resentment .

Speaker 1

Yeah .

Speaker 2

Yeah .

Speaker 1

So you know what are , what are some things that I guess your patients have experienced , and how , how are you , as the person who's treating them , how are you dealing with that or helping them to deal with that ?

Speaker 2

That is actually a really good question . I really appreciate that question because it's a really good question and it's a very it's a common thing , it's something that you see a lot of people going through and , yes , I have a whole conversation .

My first initial time talking is always virtual , because I like to take my time and not rush into treatment and I spend a lot of time just letting them talk , like listening and allowing them to speak , and I ask questions and that's really , in the beginning , how , and I feel like that by itself is therapeutic , because many times what I find is that the men

and the women process grief differently .

Navigating Fertility Choices and Challenges

See , that is that true laughter .

Speaker 3

Let's dive into that .

Speaker 2

Let's dive into that . Yeah , let's dive into that it's a podcast .

Speaker 3

What do you mean ? What do you mean by that ? What do you see ?

Speaker 2

and we're talking even pregnancy loss .

There's a primal aspect to this for women that I noticed , because they are a lot more attached or identified with motherhood , yes , whereas most of the time men , while they want to be fathers and 100% their big thing is providing and they kind of like their , their Achilles heel , I guess I want to say , look at the sensitive spot is work .

You know , that'll be like the thing that'll really rattle them because they feel like they need to be providing and that that's kind of like their and this is generalized obviously- everybody's different but there are tendencies and if you learn the yin and the yang , you'll start to see that there is this kind of balance that tends to happen and there's certain

traits and personalities and so women take it as such a primal thing that it almost is their , it's like their identification , and if they feel that is not like working as expected , there's so much shame around it and there's so much um , there's just so it's a very complicated , emotional , uh , place to be in .

So we talk , I talk to them a lot and I just um allow them really to express themselves , and one of the things that I do suggest often , especially if there was pregnancy loss , is to write a letter to the baby you know , this little living form and another thing that I actually do want to mention .

this is a very sensitive topic but , I , think that it's important to bring up is I've had people with previous abortions that have at the time knew that this was the only option they had . You know it was something that they felt like aligned with at the time but afterwards felt it kind of crept up as guilt . And of course we assign meaning .

You know , as humans it's kind of like the human condition . The meaning comes a lot of times like oh , now that I do actually want to have a baby , am I being punished ?

Speaker 1

Am I being ?

Speaker 2

punished . So this is kind of like the things that I do see repeatedly with a lot of my patients , right , Right .

Speaker 3

Did you experience grief during that time ? Because I think I did actually . Yeah , yeah , I didn't . The provider part . The one thing that I had an issue with was damn , like we spent all this money and it's not working .

And it's a feeling of wow , like I'm really no , it's not that it's wasted , it's like I can't believe that we're at a point where you can throw . It was more of like a despair , it was just like so we got a situation that not even money can fix and science can fix . That's where I was at .

I was like this is an issue , so I'm sorry I cut you off , though .

Speaker 1

No , I mean , I certainly did . You know experience grief , especially in the way that you described , right the , you know the primal like OK , this is something that I've wanted to do pretty much all my life . I've always wanted to be a mother , and now it's not working . It's not working . You know , did I wait too long ? Did I do something wrong ?

You know , you start kind of having questions about what you've done and whether or not you've contributed to this in some way , shape or form . But you know , as much as you try to do , that it's still . You still can't rationalize it because there's nothing that you can pinpoint to to to say , well , I did this and therefore it resulted in this .

And so you kind of have these questions that really have nowhere to go . There really is no answer to these questions .

Speaker 2

No , no , and it's really like we're at a time where the environment like just the toxins and there's so many things that are happening . There's 100 percent out of people's control . Like you cannot control what's in the water you cannot control , and those things impact both men and women . Those are one of the things I mean .

There's so many other things , so like it really is not anybody's fault , like this is just something that we're in right now .

Speaker 1

Right , right Now . You talked about going back to the toxins and then talking about what you would say to your daughters when they hit 30 . Would you recommend that men bank their sperm ?

Speaker 2

I do , I mean , I'm going to say something that's kind of like , well , it's sort of private and personal , but it was kind of cool to me because so my daughter's boyfriend , she's in college and her boyfriend's like so sweet , so nice , very smart , and he's very into his health and he's reading about what's happening with sperm , like literally , and I'm amazed that

at college like there's somebody thinking about their future , and I'm amazed that at college , like there's somebody thinking about their future and I told him listen , if it's something that you're really concerned .

Speaker 3

Those price tags , though , what's that you should hold ? Those price tags of college and tuition ? They should be really smart . This is true . 50 grand , let's be real Expectation versus reality though you know Right right .

Speaker 2

You don't know where people's minds are but it was really nice to see that , the thoughtfulness to think about that um and to be concerned because because it is something that people should concern be concerned with . So I said listen , if it's something that you're concerned with .

Because he was saying you know , I see that it's declining , I see problems with testosterone , like all these different things , and he knows that I'm in this world , so he's like I just ask you questions , and so I could see that he was concerned , like legitimately concerned . I said listen , like bank it , and he was like , yeah , he goes . I guess that's it .

I was like you could actually men can freeze it for longer , and I think it's cheaper .

Speaker 1

Yes , it's cheaper , yeah . So , men out there , you know all the med students out there pre-med students , non-traditional pre-med students , all of you delaying your childbearing . You know this might be something to really think about .

You know , it really does hit home for us , which is why we wanted to have you on the show , because when I you know , when I saw what you were all about , I said to me I said we need to have her on the show because this is definitely something that people talk about with our kind of audience , right , people are not talking to doctors about hey , I go

through this whole career and then you end up not having a lot of trouble .

Speaker 3

It has to happen a lot because the average graduate is twenty seven , twenty eight .

Speaker 1

That's from medical medical school , med school .

Speaker 3

And then the average residency has to be anywhere between three to five years .

Speaker 1

Right .

Speaker 3

So you're talking about like .

Speaker 1

People who are in their mid-30s , potentially , and when we talk about women who , when you hit 35 , right , the dictum again is that that decline happens . You know it's a steep decline in terms of egg number and certainly egg quality , decline in terms of egg number and certainly egg quality .

And so you know you potentially have not just delayed your childbearing , but you might have actually delayed relationships to some extent which then you know , which then rolls right into your childbearing .

So there are a lot of , there are a lot of students who say well , you know , I can't really be in a relationship right now because you know , I'm so focused on school I don't , you know , I don't want to . You know , take the , take the time or , you know , take the risk of being in this relationship .

Speaker 2

Also the circadian rhythm disruptions from the overnight shifts , which does impact your menstrual cycle and ovulation , can impact fertility . Um , the other aspect of is high stress . Uh , probably not eating and nourishing your body the way it's supposed to .

I mean not to stress people out , but , um , what I say is that obviously it's not to say like , oh my God , your life's screwed now because you have to do this . Not at all . Actually , you can counteract a lot of these things . One of the things that's really cool is earthing .

Putting your feet on the earth can help your circadian rhythm get back faster , so it's good for after jet lag , it's good in general and there's science behind it . That's what we'll do after we come back from Ghana Watch the earthing movie . Oh , from Ghana . Yeah , Watch the earthing movie . Oh , from Ghana . Yeah , watch the earthing movie .

It's free , you can find it on YouTube and they show studies . They did I believe it was a thermography on inflammation how it lowers immediately after putting your feet on the grounding mat or going like on the earth and what's ? you said it's earthing or earthing , so they call it earthing grounding . Um , so the earthing movie is um .

I highly recommend it and I tell my patients to do it all the time . So that's one of the things they can anchor their circadian rhythms by looking at the blue light , the sun , early in the morning .

Speaker 1

So that anchors them because that's one of the ways you can like really um impact , uh , jet lag , or like improve , yeah , yeah so one of the things , um , when we first moved into where we live now , there were these blackout shades , the you know the blackout shades , and it drove me nuts it drove me , drove me , nuts .

And so we had somebody come in and just rearrange some things , and one of the things that I asked her to do was to remove those blackout shades and put shades that let a little bit of light in in the morning .

Speaker 2

world of difference . It really has made a world of difference .

Speaker 1

So that's interesting that you say that , because I always say to me I'm like I wake up with the sun .

Speaker 2

Yeah , usually when .

Speaker 3

I wake up . I wake up with the sun , yeah .

Speaker 1

Oh , that's so interesting .

Speaker 3

I think I found it the earthing movie .

Speaker 2

Okay , this came out in 2019 . It'll blow your mind . Yeah , because they have numbers . They'll give you numbers , research . That's what you're going to be like . Oh my God . It also decreases the time of healing , like wound healing . It's crazy , yeah , okay .

Speaker 1

Yeah , that's really interesting . Okay , really interesting to know , but yeah , no , this has been really really helpful , yeah .

Speaker 3

Michelle , this has been great .

Speaker 1

Yeah , this has been very very interesting .

Speaker 3

I wish we had more time to talk about it , because there's a lot of there's just a lot of psychology also . I think that goes in , and not only in understanding fertility but , also like the psyche of someone who comes in to probably see you . You know where they're at you know , with their lifestyle , where they're at with their , just with their .

You know where they are with their mind yeah and you know , is this a point of what's the word I want to use , like the last resort , um , or is it like you , like renee , when she knew , like when we started deciding that we were going to have a family , we , we did natural for a short period of time , a very short period of time , and then she said ,

well , we have to jump

Experiences With Electroacupuncture and Needles

into that . The one last question I have to have is do you see a difference between electro acupuncture , like with the lasers , and with traditional ?

Speaker 2

You mean the laser , or adding electric simulation to the needles , or do you mean like lasers versus needles ?

Speaker 3

Yeah , Exactly the former , the latter the latter . Lasers versus needles Is there a difference ?

Speaker 2

I mean listen , you could use lasers .

Speaker 3

Because some IVF clinics do that stuff .

Speaker 1

Yes , the one that . Yeah , I did get that once yeah they'll definitely stimulate something .

Speaker 2

So it's better than nothing . But I'm a purist . I like the actual needles going in because I feel like it just stimulates a little bit more mechanically . Because I feel like it just stimulates a little bit more mechanically . But the lasers do help as well , and sometimes they use it for kids who are afraid of needles or people who are afraid of needles .

So like it does definitely do something . But I don't . I usually use needles , like in my office .

Speaker 1

Yeah , I personally like the needles . I'll . I'll end this here . So my experience I will tell you . So the first time I got pregnant I went to my friend . She's an acupuncturist and she actually just started out as my acupuncturist .

We're friends now , but the first time I went to her friends now , but the first time I went to her I was supposed to do an IVF cycle . Something happened , either the cycle I can't remember if the cycle got interrupted or if I miscarried . I couldn't remember . I can't remember what it was , but I was .

So I was in such a bad place that my first appointment I called her and I said I'm canceling the appointment . And she asked me what happened . I told I think I miscarried . Yeah , I must have miscarried . Yes , I definitely miscarried , because that's when we went to the office in New Jersey . I had gotten to six weeks .

That was the furthest I had ever gone was to six weeks . And I said I miscarried , I'm going to cancel the appointment . And she said please come in , I just want to talk to you . So I obliged and I go in and I speak to her . And I don't remember what she said , but I remember I felt like , ok , I'm going to come back .

I want to come back , and so I go back to her , and this was about in July or August , early , maybe late July . No excuse me . I went to her in April , then I was going to her every week and about the time that I reached late July I remember her telling me to come in at a certain time of my cycle . And so I go in and she does the needling .

She's a purist as well . So she did the needling and I can't tell you that I've ever experienced something like this before . But she does the needling and she leaves the room and she says just relax .

And let me tell you , michelle , I don't know what happened , but my mind literally went to almost seeing the inner , my inner organs , like seeing the egg , oh okay .

Speaker 3

Seriously .

Speaker 1

Seriously . All right Seeing the egg , like seeing myself ovulate , and just I don't know what that was , but it was very I could tell you . It was very strange . It was extremely strange and I was like I've never experienced something like this before . A few weeks later , I found out I was pregnant . Oh my God .

Um a few weeks later , I found out I was pregnant . Oh my God , um , fast forward , fast forward . About 18 months later we try another IVF cycle , because we're trying to get pregnant again after I've had my first son , and the IVF cycle didn't even work at all , like not not even a little bit , but at that point I wasn't doing acupuncture anymore .

But then my cycles were completely off . They were so short .

Speaker 2

So , short .

Speaker 1

I was about 24 days , 23 days and I'm usually textbook 28 days , 30 days . And so I go to her and I'm like everything's really short . I don't know what to do . She says come to me . This is in October . I go to her , she does her needling .

I don't have that experience again , but what I do have is that in October my cycle goes 24 days , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28 . I'm at 32 days , I call her and I say listen , you either threw me into menopause or I'm pregnant . I was pregnant .

Speaker 2

Oh , okay , so I call it like this is my name for it I mean , I think people have called it this but acu nap , like when people come in with the acupuncture they have a nap , but it's not a normal nap , it's a very strange , I told you now what did you do ?

Speaker 3

remember I did that with emil . What remember they did the acupuncture on him and then I fell asleep .

Speaker 1

You didn't get the needling .

Speaker 3

They did it to me also . You didn't get the needling . Anyway keep going .

Speaker 2

I'm sorry , yeah , yeah , yeah , so it's this weird place that people go , where like all of a sudden they're in dreamland , they're normal there , they go through a portal and I feel like you're going into kind of like the control center or the quantum field . This is I , my philosophy . I'm really into Dr Joe Dispenza .

I don't know if you guys have looked into his work . So what I love about him is he does . He bridges spiritual and like woo woo and science , because he studies the mind and he does a lot of like .

He measures his participants like literally has a whole team of researchers and it's fascinating the stuff that he's coming up with like or that they're observing . But they do meditations and they get it . So he talks a lot about the quantum field .

So I feel like this is my philosophy is that the veil between our material world and the quantum world becomes very thin when you're fully surrendered into the treatments . People will start to get visuals . It's insane . I get all kinds of things .

One of them she went in after a year of coming to me , had this whole experience , talked to her daughter , knew it was going to be a daughter , got pregnant . That after a year just knew it was . So it's so bizarre . But it's like this mystery . So that's kind of like , yeah , we can explain it .

But then there's this other mystery that I don't think anybody even has words to describe .

Speaker 1

Yeah , that was , that was definitely , definitely my experience , because the day that I found out I was pregnant , I woke up and I said to him I had a dream that we're going to have a baby boy . And he said well , that would be cheaper than the IVF .

Speaker 3

I love that that's so funny . That's where my mind that's so funny , it's true . That's where my mind was at at the time .

Speaker 1

Yeah , that's what he said . But yeah , I had a dream about my son . I dreamt that he was born and I was holding him , and even at the hospital , or no , actually I dreamt him at another hospital , but it was just so vivid that it was like where am I exactly ? But yeah , that was the day I found out I was pregnant . About what ? 10 hours later ?

Speaker 2

was when I found out I was pregnant . Wow , my mom had a dream about me . I'm a product of secondary infertility and she had a dream about me and she's like everybody has straight hair except for me . I'm a product of secondary infertility . And she had a dream about me and she's like everybody has straight hair except for me .

And so she sees a girl with curly hair . And I used to have really , really curly hair like locks , and I'm jumping up and down and she was like who's this girl ? And somebody said that's your daughter . And then I think it was a year after she conceived me Wow .

Speaker 3

Yeah , pretty crazy . And I had a dream also about my daughter .

Speaker 2

It's like a whole other story , but yeah , it's pretty wild yeah .

Speaker 1

Yeah , it's pretty

Fertility Wisdom

wild . Well , thank you so much , Michelle . Tell us you know , tell our audience , where we can find out more about you , what you have going on .

Speaker 2

Oh , thank you . So my name is Michelle michelleorbitzcom . Basically , it's my namecom is my website and you can find my Instagram . I have a fertility podcast which I should actually have . You come on and tell your story .

Speaker 1

Because , if you're okay with it , that would be awesome .

Speaker 2

Yeah , and so your podcast . It's the wholesome fertility podcast . Okay , and so I also just recently published a book called the way of fertility , and so what's the name of your ? podcast .

It's the wholesome fertility podcast , okay , and so I also just recently published a book called the way of fertility and it really talks about , like ancient wisdom that Ayurveda , traditional Chinese medicine , is based off of , and how our bodies really want to conceive .

It's just about getting to that homeostasis , that yin and yang balance , and really like listening to the body's communication and intelligence which we are . We come from incredible design of intelligence and our bodies are incredibly intelligent . So , um , how to get back into it the benefits of meditation and different exercises ? Um , yeah , so that's pretty much it .

You guys can find me in michelleorbertscom .

Speaker 3

We got on the banner below Awesome .

Speaker 1

Well , thank you so much , Michelle , and we will be in contact so that we can be on your podcast as well . Thank you for inviting us Of course .

Speaker 3

Thank you very much . Yeah , good talking to you , michelle . Thank you .

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