Special Guest In The Studio: Carrie Sue

It's the Doc Jacques, your addiction lifeguard podcast. I am Dr. Jacques DeBruyckert. a psychologist, licensed professional counselor, addiction specialist. And I am your lifeguard on the beach of life. If you are in the water, drowning in a sea of addiction, I am here to rush out and help you get back to shore, back to the living, back to the sane, stable and sober. On this episode of Doc Shock, I have a special guest, an old friend, Carrie Sue.

Okay, so I was working admissions at residential and we had a guy that needed to come in and he was an opiate addict. And I'd been working with both him and his father. The first time he showed up, finally, after months and months of trying to get him to actually come onto the property, he was in such severe withdrawal that we actually had to send him to the hospital. And then he AWOLed from the hospital. So I continued to work with him and his father. And we got him to come in again.

Carrie Sue. We have Carrie Sue in the studio today. Hi,

Jacques.

Hi. Known you for a long time.

It has been quite a few years. I think more than eight at this point.

Something like that, yeah. So you have a lot of experience in recovery work and addiction work?

I do, personally and professionally. Yeah. In my 20s, I struggled a Well, I had a lot of fun, but I struggled with quite a bit of drug use. But I didn't drink. And in high school, I didn't drink. I drank probably a handful of times. And then my drinking career started when I put down street drugs in my late 20s. Yeah. And then I had quite a battle.

With?

Alcohol.

Alcohol. And, and, but you've, you've worked in this field for a long time too.

Yeah. So the last four years I've worked in substance use treatment, you know, after getting sober I've worked in admissions, I've worked in aftercare. I ran a structured sober living home that was affiliated with a PHP and IOP program in Arlington, Virginia. So I have a pretty, you know, co-facilitated groups.

got it you got a lot there's been a lot of experience with the actual like hands-on with addiction and recovery work yes and you've seen some stuff i have you've seen some stuff lots of stuff yeah we got a lot of stuff around this area we do we do um uh what's what's what's been the most challenging thing that you've encountered over the last four years with with treating addicts or, you know, with people who are trying to struggle into that world of recovery?

I think so. I worked quite a while with young adults exclusively.

Young being?

Like 18 to a young 35. So that kind of failed to thrive.

And that prime year for really sliding into it.

Right. Bad. And, you know, there was a lot of entitlement. also um with the population that i was working with um so i think you know and i can't imagine because i didn't get sober until i was 46 so you know i think that it's hard for young people to wrap their heads around like a long-term recovery

oh they don't yeah they don't get it

yeah so um you know, trying to explain to them that, you know, you don't have to choose forever, but like for right now, if you want to treat some of the underlying things that are happening, you need to at least remain abstinence in order for any kind of therapy to take effect to treat, you know, if you've got trauma or mental health illness or, you know, anxiety, whatever it is that's happening, that's, you know, keeping you in your basement playing video games all day long.

And mind and body.

Mind and body.

So body, you mean?

Abstinence.

Right. And mind, you mean?

You have to attempt to relieve yourself of that obsession to use or drink.

The crazy brain.

The crazy brain. The hamster wheel.

The hamster wheel. The squirrels. The crazy train.

The crazy train.

So if you're on the crazy train, abstinence is the key to starting to move towards recovery. You know, let me ask you something. Okay. Because people get confused about the difference between abstinence and sobriety.

Okay.

Explain.

Okay. So abstinence is simply not drinking or using a drug. For me, in my experience, sobriety is actually, well, I'm a 12-step girl. So I'm going to advocate for that because it changed my life. But sobriety is where you actually take actions. If you are in a 12-step program, those would be the steps of the program to come to terms with where you've been, clean house, so to speak, so that you can move forward and grow emotionally.

So I'm pointing the finger at myself. So abstinence is in the brain, it's up in the head, and sobriety is down in the heart.

You could explain it like that.

So, okay. So 12 step girl. So you're, you're jumping through the steps. Where do you think your opinion is? Where do you think sobriety starts kicking in, in the 12 steps? Is it step one? My life's become unmanageable.

24 hour chip. I'm sober. No, no, no. Definitely not at step one.

One month. I've got my 30 year chip. Yeah. No

time. I don't think.

Step three. I'm at step three.

Sober. I don't think time has really anything to do with it. You know what I mean? It's when that psychic change starts to kick in, you know, when you start to really desire living a different way.

Feeling. Yeah. You're feeling different. Yes. That's okay. That's really important because you know what? When I'm treating people, They use that word sober all the time. Every time. They never use abstinence. Like I use the word abstinence and they look at me like I've got three heads.

Right.

Abstinence. Well, I haven't had a drink. You know, it's like, well, that's not sober.

No, I agree with you.

So it's, what did you say? It was a spiritual.

I think it's emotional and spiritual growth. Yeah. Awesome. You know, when that change starts to happen.

Yeah.

that's when the sobriety really starts to kick in and it's not just abstinence anymore.

And it fluctuates, doesn't it?

Oh, absolutely. Just like life, you know, everything fluctuates.

Up and down, up and down, up and down. Hopefully you're going up and down, but it's kind of in an upward trajectory.

Yeah. Hopefully. And hopefully, you know, you are creating a network of like-minded people, you know, that you can rely on when you're on a downslide. Yeah. You know, that's where the fellowship you've got, you know, unity, recovery and felt, you know, and the fellowship is really important.

Cause we like to hide.

Oh, isolation is my best friend.

Shame

and isolation.

That'll get you every time.

You know, when I struggle, um, I definitely isolate. I don't want to talk to anybody. Um, you know, and when I was really struggling, um, shame kept me from, you know, getting, um, honest in the rooms. It was shame and it was a lot of ego too. Mm-hmm. You know, I was prideful, you know, because I had maintained sobriety for quite some time. I had worked through the steps several times, you know, and then I fell off. And, you know, when I wanted to get back in, you know, there was that shame.

So just give me a little glimpse into the window here for you, from your perspective. You went out. You picked up, you're gone for, I don't know, a day, a week, month, whatever. And you got to go crawling back into the rooms. What's that like? Tell us what that's like.

You know, so inside my brain, it's awful because I think I'm going to be judged. You know what I mean? Like I... I don't know. I had a therapist tell me once that I was a perfectionist with an inferiority complex. So, you know, I just, like, you know, I was riddled with shame. Like, you know, I knew better than this. Like, I worked a really solid program for a long time. But the reality was, is that there was absolutely no judgment. You know, I was welcomed back with open arms.

Which is interesting because what would you experience as a person who had been in the rooms, had not gone back out at that point and somebody else comes in and tells you the story that you just told them about how you'd fallen off. Yeah, I would

just be so excited that they were still breathing oxygen and were back in the room.

Come on in, man. Sit down. Stop with the shame,

right?

But then when it happens to you, you go right to it.

Oh,

of course. It's reflexive. Yeah. You can't stop it.

Nope.

Right. So I'm sitting here asking you these questions, and I'm hoping that somebody's listening to this going, oh, wow, I guess that's true. It's not just me. It's everybody. But that doesn't make any difference, does it?

Not in the moment.

You still feel it?

Yeah,

I know. Shame, shame, shame.

Shame, shame, shame. Yeah. You know, I'm fortunate enough that I have a really solid program back in place. And I've got some AA muscle memory that's kicking in right now, which is kind of cool. And I've got this amazing network of women who, you know, just have my back.

So you're in a community now.

Oh,

absolutely. And that's the, that's the whole key to the 12 step process because you, you know, people outside the 12 step process are like, Oh, you know, the rates are a failure high and that doesn't work. And are you, I joined a cult, you're joining a cult.

Yeah. You hear that a lot. The word God, I think keeps a lot of people out of the rooms, um, longer than they should be. Um, and, you know, and I think that maybe was true for me years ago. I mean, I've been in the rooms for 10 years. I, my first meeting was in 2011. Um, but it's a spiritual program. It's not a religious program. Right. You know, um,

you don't like the God

talk, you know, and really spirituality is what it's feeding your spirit. Right. Right. So, um, you know, and that's what you need to do if you want to recover, um, you know, or, you know, put down that bottle, which is just, sucking the life out of you.

You know, it's interesting. You said something there that is you're now contradicting, but it's in a positive way, but I'm going to point it out to you. You said when you go back out and you pick up and you have to go crawling back into the room, you feel like you're being judged, right? Right. Okay. You just made statements of judgment, but not in a judgmental way. You said this happens, this happens. I felt this way. I felt this way. You're judging your own failure. Right.

Okay.

I, I failed. Right. That's the judgment, right? I'm making a judgment call. I went out and I picked up. Okay. Then other people come in and they say, please come back. Oh, awesome. Yeah. No, we love you. Sit down. Let's, let's, let's talk about that. Let's share that. You share that with us, you know, because they're asking you to, to stop judge being judgmental with yourself and, but they are judging that you're in need.

Right.

Right. Oh, and

I was in need. I was in a lot of need.

Right. So, you

know, I went out. So the last, um, three weekends I've been getting together with some of the women, um, in my network and, uh, And it's been pretty great. This past Sunday, we were having coffee outside and we were louder and laughing more than the table next to us that was on their third bottle of champagne.

That's because you're not taking a sedative, you're drinking coffee, which is an upper, right?

Right. Well, this is probably true too. And the week before that, my daughter came along and on the way home, she said, mom, I'm so glad that you have friends again. Cause I was isolating for a long time.

Yeah. That's, you know, that's the, that's the leading indicator of things have gotten bad.

Yeah.

When you go from thoughts of use to maybe you had an accident, you know, you drank once or used once to it's, it's now more, you know, went from once to twice to three times and now, and, and the world's disappeared. You've, you've fallen into your Heidi hole.

Right.

Yeah.

Mm hmm.

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So, years ago when my drinking was probably at its worst, I had lost my job, my career that I'd been in for 10 years. I was living at home with my parents. I was in my mid-40s. really awful. But I was still trying and I was in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous and I was hanging with this woman who had 20 plus years in the program. And she had had an accident at work and wasn't able to drive.

interesting life and I, you know, there's like a ton of to talk about with that, but I'm curious about your experiences that you have personally and how they've, how they've affected the work, the work that you've done professionally in trying to help addicts.

Sure. So, you know, I think that the two positions that I held that I enjoyed the most working in substance use treatment, um, first was aftercare so in that position i was working at a residential facility and i was helping people um set up their aftercare plan because you know you can go to treatment for what 30 60 90 days but the hard work starts when you go back home right um so i would help them find you know either sober living a good therapist uh you know an intensive outpatient program

And these are people who are first timers or retreads? Both. Both. And residential treatment was actual residential treatment. You were working for a treatment center that had, you know, 30, 60, 90, 120 day stays. Correct. In our local area.

Yeah.

And then they would discharge out. And you're trying to help them identify people and push them towards continuing the work rather than just go out the door and job done, I'm cured.

Absolutely. You know, because especially people, first timers, you know, kind of feel like, okay, I'm going to come in here for 30 days, I'm going to be fixed and everything will be fine.

I get this.

Yeah. You know, and I experienced that several times before, you know, I reached the point where, you know, I was ready for that complete surrender and to follow any suggestion that was given to me because, you Um, my way wasn't working, you know, so I needed to kind of follow the lead of people that were doing what I couldn't do, which was to stay clean and sober. So, um,

Do what you're told, even when you don't want to do it.

Step nine comes down the line, you know, you know, or for whatever reason, I tried a and I didn't like it, you know, okay, well, let's talk about refuge recovery, you know, let's talk about smart recovery, you know, there's other options out there. Yeah. You know, if you know, unfortunately, some people do have a bad experience when they first get into the room.

Oh, yeah, because the rooms are checkerboard squares of like, difference.

Oh, yeah.

Depends on who's in there. And it takes one or two disruptive people or the meeting blows up or they've got an agenda.

Yeah.

Or something.

Yeah. In the beginning, you really kind of have to look around and you got a lot of different meetings.

A lot of different meetings. Very important thing to do. Don't go to one. Don't go to two. Go to like 10.

Yep.

Over a two week time period or, you know, and then and then make a decision about what AA is or NA is.

Absolutely.

And don't go to the same meeting.

Right.

And don't even go to the same part of town.

Yeah.

Or the same day, same time.

Right. You know, and now there's so many options out there, you know, with Zoom. Yeah. You know, and I don't think that's going to go away, even as things start to normalize at some point. I think that that's going to continue because, you know, people are coming into Zoom meetings from all over the country, all over the world. Yeah. Which is really cool. So... But

the one, you know, the one thing about that doing Zoom that's missing is like what we're doing right here, face to face. Right. You can't, I can't, I can't see you in three dimension if it's a flat screen.

No, that's absolutely true.

What I, what I suggest to my clients is when this goes back to normal, Zoom meetings are great because it's on the hour, every hour, basically 24 hours a day for whatever language you speak, you'll find a meeting. somewhere around the world or locally. However, you must have a home meeting where people know you so that when you don't show up, They start calling.

Absolutely.

They're trying to hunt you down. Right. What's going on?

Yeah.

Cause you gotta have a place to go back to, to feel all that shame when you walk in the room and you can't, if you don't have a home meeting, you must do something in person. You must. So what I would prefer people do is if they're going to do zoom meetings. Awesome. When this whole coronavirus thing kind of resolves, Hey, let's do one or two meetings a week in person.

Right.

But Sunday morning meeting at six o'clock in the morning. you know, or whatever. That's your home meeting. Use that. Then do the Zoom meetings.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I've been getting back to some meetings in person and that definitely helps. Makes a difference. Yeah. Yeah. So getting back to your original question, you know, the other position that I held was admissions. And the reason that I enjoyed that so much is because, you know, there are so many different types of treatment out there.

yeah surrender is surrender

surrender is surrender you know it could be a bad treatment center it could just be walking into the rooms it could you know it could be a great treatment but So I'll say that. However, with people that have serious underlying issues, especially trauma, you know, it's really vital to once that abstinence is in place to treat those underlying issues. And

you can't do that in a residential treatment center. You can't treat real trauma long term because they're only there for 30 days.

Well, typically, you know, I will say I had an experience where I was somewhere for 60 days and I got three hours a week one-on-one for trauma. And that put me in a really good place to move forward going out.

So you walked through the door of treatment, but it's a big, huge area you just walked into. Right. Right. So, but getting through that door is... The residential.

Right. Because I was, I was a person that I needed to be physically removed from alcohol.

Right.

For an extended period of time. So, you know, some people can walk into the rooms and do that and it's great. I just needed that physical separation. And

it was more than 30 days.

And it was more than 30 days.

I can stand on my head for 30 days.

Yeah.

I can't do it for 60.

No, you know, I basically cashed out a retirement fund and said, okay, this is how much money I have. How long can I stay? Yeah. You know, because I was at that point. Cause I, I was just at that point. Um, but you know, I am passionate about people getting good treatment when it's available. Unfortunately, there's a financial barrier. Insurance companies have not, um,

Still playing games. Yeah, it's

horrible. They're willing to pay 100% for a broken arm, but when it comes to a broken heart or a broken head, they're just not

there. Well, how many people are going to go out and re-break their arm 10 days after they've left the hospital for a broken arm? Not many.

Right.

How many people are going to relapse?

Yeah.

A lot. A lot. A lot. So getting them to the point where they'll actually come in, Is that what you're talking about? Were you sitting behind a desk and a computer yakking on a phone and filling out forms? Is that what you were doing?

Sometimes,

but that's not really,

but you know, I was, but I was also inviting them to come like to come sit with me, you know, to come see what we do, to come meet some of the staff.

Why would you do that? What's the point of that?

Well, first of all, there's that energy, right? That you have.

Person to person. Person

to person.

Personal persuasion.

Yeah.

Personal power.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can gauge the authenticity of what's being said in a much more powerful way, I think, when you're face to face. You know, so... a lot of times it was working, you know, especially when working with younger adults, it was working with family first as they were going to be the, you know, the financial piece. Right. You know, and explaining to them what good treatment looks like and why it does cost more than someplace that's going to be in network.

Yeah.

And then, you know, then often it was a struggle for them. You know, they wanted advice on how, you know, what do we do to try to get... That

person into treatment. Johnny into treatment because he

really doesn't want to come. Right. He doesn't, you know, and... You know, so, you know, there was a lot of talk about setting boundaries.

Identify the chief enabler.

Without consequences, there's no motivation for change.

Right.

You know. Boundaries,

boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries,

boundaries, boundaries.

Yeah. You know, I've said this, I don't know, 10 million times. People do not want to get sober. They need to. That's when it happens. Nobody actually wants to. Like you didn't want to know when you're doing it. You don't want to, right. You just want to get high or drunk. That's what you want.

Yeah.

But you need to. And the need is created by having boundaries. So teaching family members about boundaries and, and what, you know, how to put them down or that they are necessary. Absolutely. Yeah. That's so you were doing that. You were talking to the family members about, about that kind of stuff. Okay. And so once you did that and once you, and, and you have the person that's, you know, needing to get into a program. We're sitting in front of you. Now what? What magic spell?

God,

that's a big

question shock. You know, you basically let them know that, you know, we're here for them. You know, despite who's paying for the program, like you are a client, we're here for you. You know, we're going to respect, you know, what it is that you need and at what pace you want to take things.

Residential is residential.

Well, no, now I'm talking about the last place I worked, which was not residential. It was PHP

and IOP intensive outpatient programming.

Yeah.

And, and so that's in the state of Virginia, that's nine minimum, nine hours a week. Right. Three, usually. So IOP

is nine to 19 hours a week.

Right.

PHP is 20 to 39 hours a week. Yeah. You're there. Residential is 24, 40 plus hours a week of treatment. And you're staying there around the clock.

Can't leave. Right. PHP, you go home.

PHP, you go home. Although there are, you know, because insurance companies are more likely to pay out for a PHP program. There are quite a few programs out there and there's several in this area.

Where you can stay.

Where you can stay. They have a structured sober living environment affiliated with the PHP.

Right. So you go to PHP and then you go to your sober living house and then you go.

Correct. And their staff, their 24 hours staff provide transportation. Yeah. um and those programs have become pretty popular because um insurance you know a lot of insurance companies have a hard time paying out residential

yeah

um which is unfortunate

well there's a cost difference differentiation there

right

so that makes sense and

yeah

um okay so uh getting somebody to go from first getting them into residential treatment is very difficult to begin with. All right, so then they've surrendered, they've gone in. They can certainly leave at any time, right? But they're gonna leave AMA and that's gonna affect reimbursement from insurance for future treatment, at least in the immediacy. But okay, so they go to residential, they stay for 30, 60, 90, 120 days, six months, whatever.

for the step down.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, for the most part, you know, I had a lot of people who I think came through my office when I was doing aftercare that, um, would sign up for aftercare and then never show.

They

were just doing what they needed to do to get out the door.

Just get me out.

Yeah, I'm ready to leave. It's pretty obvious, I think, when you're working with people in regards to recovery, who is really ready and who's not. Although I have had the great honor of witnessing some... You know, coming in, kicking and screaming like a toddler, you know, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. But, you know, because, because there were pending consequences, whether it be legal or familial or, you know, with a job or whatever, you know, they did it.

Well, that may be the first time that they've actually experienced somebody caring, you know, in a compassionate way. In my work, doing interventions, working, doing individuals and groups, what I've found is that it's that compassion thing. Nobody cared. Right. You know, it's when somebody cares, all of a sudden, it's like, wow, this feels good. Right.

Yeah, they're used to getting a lot of anger. You know what I mean? They're pissing people off right and left.

Absolutely.

So no, yeah, I think that's probably true.

Yeah. So when that sign of caring and real actual connection, like I really do, you really do matter. I see you.

Right.

You know, they experience a lot of get away from me. You're the scum of the earth. And Again, they're always traumatized to begin with. So they've been traumatized and now they're getting beaten on all the time while they're trying to cope with their drug of choice by using their drug of choice. And now it comes to the point where they're dying and somebody's trying to help them and saying, oh, I care. But I just spent the last five years just complaining and yelling at you. And now I care.

Right.

Yeah.

And not only do we care, we can relate. And I think that also if the treatment they're receiving is good, they're going to get that education piece.

And so that allows them to continue on because they've got that education piece.

Well, I think... Part of the education piece, when you start to understand that physiologically you've been altered, not only your brain chemistry, but with alcoholics, that physical allergy component. it explains a lot, you know, it explains why once you take that first drink, you know, you chemically process it differently than normal drinkers, you know, and your body demands more.

One of the things I like about having people come in here and talk is, you know, give their, give their testimony, so to speak about their experiences is that it helps people who really have a limited amount of experience of under either understanding addiction or they're just, they're only listening to what's in their head. And, uh, you know, that's like,

I do

getting caught trapped in that isolation

problem.

So, um, you, you have a wealth of knowledge and experience that, um, in recovery as well as addiction, your personal story, both professionally and personal. Just awesome. So I wanted to thank you for coming in.

Thank you for having me.

Spend a little bit of time. You're going to come back though, right? I will come back. Awesome. Because we've only, I'm literally, I have just touched the tip of the tip of the iceberg with the stuff that's underneath the water. I haven't even seen that. Yeah. But really, any, any, parting words of wisdom you have for somebody who's looking for help? You can direct it towards a family or to somebody who's listening to this and is just getting high and drunk all the time, need help.

It really depends on where you are, but if you need help in the immediate while you look, if you're open to treatment, that's awesome. A lot of people aren't, but in the meantime, there are hotlines out there. There's AA, there's NA, there's refuge recovery for those of you that have a problem with the God aspect. That's based in Buddhist philosophy.

understand it. To

understand it. They don't get it. And I get that. I really do. They don't understand. And why should they? Because it takes these beautiful, intelligent, passionate, ambitious people and turns them into...

Zombies. Literally zombies. This

pathetic shell of a human being. It's really hard to wrap your head around, so I would just suggest there's so many things out there. There's YouTube. Look up Listen to people in Al-Anon. Look TED Talks on addiction. If you're not willing to start reaching out, find a therapist that specializes in addiction therapy, even if it's not for yourself, but it's for a loved one so that you might better understand what they're going through.

Because understanding addiction is something that even if you're watching somebody use right in front of you, day after day, after day, after day, the person who's the family member, they keep looking at it going, what's wrong with you?

Right. Why can't you just stop?

What's the problem? What's wrong with you? Stop it. You know, because they can't. And then the person who's the addict is like, why don't you understand me? Right. It's like, yeah. So get off the merry-go-round, but the truth, understand the truth. The truth will set you free. Stop lying. Stop hiding. Stop shaming. Stop being shamed, feeling shamed. And, and that most important thing was, was that reach out, reach out to somebody, call somebody, somebody that knows something about recovery.

Right. And

you can, yeah, you can do it or not. It's ridiculous today with coronavirus over the last year plus everything's online every week. There's no reason to not do it. You know, you can do it. So do that. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. The first time that you speak those words out loud, like I need help. It's like a thousand pound weight is lifted off your shoulders. It really

is. Yeah. It's amazing. It is. Well, thanks for coming. I really appreciate it. And we got to do this again. So look forward to some further podcasts with you.

Thank you, Zach.

Yeah. That's it for this episode of Doc Shock, Your Addiction Lifeguard. Really do appreciate Carrie Sue coming in today and giving us some testimony, some inspiration, some words of advice, some stories. She's always good for stories. If you are in need of help and you want some help either in recovery for yourself or a family member that is in need of help, please contact Get help. It's not worth ending your life to try to save your addiction. It's available everywhere.