Jonathan on Everyone Hates Marketers with Louis Grenier

Much to my delight and true to form, if you're familiar with Louis' stuff, He asked a lot of very specific and pointed questions so we could avoid the typical BS that you hear on business podcasts. If you'd like to watch a video of the interview, you can check the show notes, and I'll link to his video on YouTube. If you enjoy it, please let me know, and find Louis on Twitter or LinkedIn to let him know too. Alright. Onto the episode.

What? Money wise? Yeah. I'm a weird bug because I don't really care about money. I care more about time. So So I only work about 5 hours a week, and my average hourly rate's $1500 an hour, so you can do the math.

He's a former, software developer on a mission to get rid of hourly billing, and he runs a very cool business that I'm dying into know more about. So I'm gonna use that to be selfish and to learn everything about it. He's the author of Hourly Billing is Nuts as well, writes a daily newsletter. He's the inspiration behind why I started mine. Jonathan Stark, welcome.

And I lasted, like, 17 episodes, and I fucking hated it. Right? So Uh-huh. I just didn't like the narration, me talking to the mic looking at myself.

Anyway, it's not about me, it's about you. So I think people know you. I think you've been around for a while. I'm not saying You're all older than me at least. You've been around for a while and you've been very consistent about the mission you have been fighting against, like the thing you've been fighting against.

I'm not saying this is not interesting, and for sure we can talk about it. But what interests me the most right now He's the type like, the business you're running and the behind the scenes and how you've achieved it. Right? So why don't we start with Jonathan Stark, the secret twin brother Pardon me. Billionaire. Right? And Yeah. That we can Talk about the before all of this. Before The business that you have that has many different components, who are you?

And as soon as it was available, I got one. I took it apart digitally speaking. And I was a web developer at the time, so I wanted to find out how to make websites amazing on this thing because they stunk. If you might not remember, but, like, the New York Times was the website in the demo that they did and Stunk. It was, like, terrible. It was, like, oh, you can tap on a paragraph.

I was talking to a senior editor Durt O'Reilly' at a social event and he was like, oh, I had written books before and he was like, oh you got another book in you?' And I was like, 'Actually I do. I've been thinking about doing a book on the iPhone and how to build apps for it using HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. And he was like, oh, well, let me run it up the flagpole and see what happens. And 2 days later I had a a book deal with O'Reilly and that book was very it was timed beautifully. It was very successful.

It was translated into 5 or 7 language. I don't know. It was translated, sold all over the world. And I launched a consulting business essentially off the back of that book. So I became speaking.

Every month, I was flying around to speak somewhere, and I was getting a lot of all of the cutting edge leadership type people, CTOs and founders, and even Fortune 500 companies were starting to to finally get the message like, wow, this iPhone thing is gonna be really big. And this was, like, 2 years after it came out, but they were the enterprises were finally like, oh, everywhere I look, Somebody's on an iPhone. Maybe we should make our website look good on one of these things. Yeah. So then I just writing, speaking, and consulting.

And it was great. So I wasn't coding for money anymore. I was basically giving people advice.

And he was like, yeah, go for it. I want people to copy it. So I created a a really big course called the pricing seminar that's 12 weeks long. And that's a real marathon, and each week has a theme. So I broke that up into a series of individual workshops in case people just wanted to learn How to podcast or how to do a daily mailing list or how to write proposals better, how to create systems in their business. So I've got 4 or 5 of these workshops that launch 1 a month all year round.

And I wanna do the same. Let's be clear. Because when I talk to people in our audience, sort of businesses, independent consultants, freelancers, whatever, they all say roughly What you said, like, the ultimate dream is freedom. Like, freedom of choice, freedom of being able to stay whatever the fuck, freedom of Choosing what to work on, freedom of who I wanna work with, freedom to spend time with my family. Like, it's always that as the call seems.

As you said before, you're like a cat. You had, like, many lives. And obviously, your experience throughout has kind of you know, you learn from that and whatever, so you didn't arrive a few years ago just without any knowledge. But why don't we try to highlight the steps that allowed you to be where you are today?

So then I already had this taste of having a disconnect between my time and my money. It was still like a solid god, I'd say 20:30 hours a week and there was a fair amount of travel. So it was definitely not it's not like now I swear I feel like I am retired. It's which isn't great. It's anyway.

D' so what happened? So what happened was, when I went solo as a coder, I was fairly well known in the community. I was a FileMaker developer, and I was fairly well known in that space because I would speak at the conferences and I wrote for the magazine, the actual paper magazine back then. So when I went solo, I left this really good firm to hang up my own shingle and people are like, what do you why are you doing that? You're like, you've got the cherry job in the industry pretty much.

And I was like, we bill by the hour, and I just had this epiphany moment. That's a mistake. And I didn't know how to transform our firm. I had no idea what the solution was, I just knew that there was a problem. And so I went solo to do that, and it went really well.

And so a lot of my old colleagues and friends from that space. I think they were probably imagining I was gonna come crawling back after a year, but I actually didn't need to. It was fabulous. So they I started getting invited to speak to those groups of people to be like, how did you do that? And that started happening a long time ago.

That might have been 2008 or 2009. I went solo in 2006. But I kept thinking about it. People kept asking me about it. I blogged about it for a while and that ended up being that effort ended up being what turned into the book, Hourly Billing is Nuts. That's where that seed started. And then in 2016 I released that book on my website and put it on Amazon or anything It took a few years to make the switch, but that was clear to me that I was going to.

So You spotted the call based calls before it became very sexy. Obviously, was, like, one of the very first to do this. The hourly billing thing is definitely not wasn't as popular as an ideology. I mean, again, entirely billing Wasn't as popular as an ideology back then. The iPhone is yet another one. It's easy to think in retrospect, oh, yeah. Smart move, obviously, duh. But, like, so many people doubted it as well. Right?

Because it was a blended hourly rate, everything was billed out at $150 an hour, and he had a really high salary. And I was like, what are we doing? Our worst guy, our most junior developer was practically an intern. We're making a 100% on top of his salary because it was slow. And I was like, this isn't fair.

It's not fair to the developers. It's not fair to the clients, and it's creating a bad situation for us. And I just I was just like, wait a minute. Donau. I've gotta be thinking about this wrong. It took me a long time to really be like, oh, wow. Trading time for money is idiotic.

It was like little pivots. A lot of little pivots, like from FileMaker to PHP, and then from PHP v more broadly to the web than to the mobile web and JavaScript. There's little pivots where I go farther and farther down a specific rabbit hole from a technical standpoint, D' but my clients really never changed. My clients were all they got bigger and bigger over time which value pricing kind of incentivizes you to get bigger and bigger clients because that's how you scale your business as a soloist, but it wasn't a massive shift. It was I call them half pivots where I have 1 foot in the old world, 1 foot in the new world.

So it was pretty smooth and it didn't really change anything about my marketing or my business. I would just write books and speak at conferences and that was plenty. D' and then when I pivoted to you can almost it feels like going from b to b to b to c, even though I'm still selling to business people, it they're like soloists. So it's more like a b to c purchase. So it's smaller purchases, it's way smaller dollar amounts, so you need to have a much bigger audience to support your lifestyle.

So it takes time to build that up, which was that was what I was doing during my transition years.

I can guarantee that it's definitely creating some identity crisis for a lot of folks. Let's try to give them advice right now. When it comes to those transition years, maybe let's try to put them into perspective of today's world because you're old. Right? Remember? What do you advise or what did you do in those steps? How did you manage to move from b to b to b to c, basically?

That was the big thing that I did to ramp up an audience. So as I was building that up D' I was selling high ticket 1 to 1 coaching programs to people in that audience. So it was a similar field to my old business where I would have a small number of very high paying clients, and I still had a small number of very high paying clients in the coaching world, but I knew that was over time I was going to want to stop offering 1 to 1 things because my mission is to to rid the world about early billing, and I can't do it 1 person at a time. It's not gonna I won't live long enough for that. I started up to get the cash flow I needed to continue working on building up the mailing list.

I had I think at the time I started doing coaching programs it was something like $75100 for 6 months or something like that. And it's now it's 25,000 for 4 months. So I would just raise it over time to decrease the demand for that while I was able to build up the middle of the business, which was the workshops. So those are anywhere between 250 to $800 for a workshop. And as the audience got bigger I could just get more sales there.

So it was it turned from a small number of clients over time into a big pool of customers. So that takes time, though. Like

I from 2016 is when I mentally made the switch that I was gonna do this and I didn't do it. I think my last coaching client, I think we parted ways the end of 2019. Yeah. So it was a 3 year period.

But at the same time I was on Seth's list and Dump. I was like, okay, this is doable, and I knew how it affected me and I liked the way it affected me and I wanted that to have that effect on someone else. It's very thought provoking and I think that's a good thing. And I had a friend named Philip Morgan who started doing daily. I think he's been on the show.

And he started doing daily. And he dragged me kicking and screaming. He's like, dude, you're gonna love it. You're gonna be great at it. I'll help you do it, get started because I had a 1,000,000 questions. Like, oh, I've got all these campaigns. I don't wanna hit somebody with 3 emails in one day. I'd have a bunch of stupid objections, and he's like, just do it. And he was the greatest. It was great.

In what way? It's just easier. I had a 1000000 ideas or something flips in your brain where you know you have to write today, Dump, so you just notice things. You never run out of ideas. I have something like 2,000 ideas in my folder of ideas and It's just crazy.

It's like it turns on this detector in your brain. It's almost like I see fireflies everywhere now, and I'm just trying to capture them in a bottle before they disappear. And then when I sit down to write I'll never get through the ideas that I have. There's literally 1,000. They're everywhere.

And so it's great because it turns on this sort of observational capability that probably everyone has. Certainly everybody that goes through my email course, it happens to them too and I've interviewed people about it. It happens to everybody. They start seeing ideas everywhere. Makes it really easy to build a body of work, to attract an audience, to deepen your expertise, Keys to go way down a rabbit hole, crystallize your thinking, and it's remarkable in Seth language.

When somebody hears you have a daily mailing list, they just can't believe it. It's just great all the way around. I think it's amazing.

Because I'd have a draft and it would be a really complete draft and be like, did I publish it? I couldn't even remember. So what I started doing was just picking something that happened to me that day and using that as the nugget of the story. Even if I didn't mention the thing that happened, sometimes I wouldn't. But I knew that I didn't write this email before because it happened today.

So, like, thinking that you're gonna piss them off by saying the same thing is wrong, and that's true. Right? So You might be saying something over and over again to the same person, but then their circumstances are changing. Maybe they get hired. Now they are in house instead of Freelancer, whatever. And boom, Dave. Oh, yeah. That now that makes sense. So I I've seen that too as well. Anyway, this episode is not about how to send daily emails even though I'd love to have you back for that.

It's more like how do you become, you know, you? How do we work only 5 hours a week and be happy and feel like, you know, we can clean the garage every day? So Tell him, how did it grow then?

And then sometimes I went on the future one time and I got a big spike from that, Christo's show on YouTube and you get spikes from appearances, but if you look at it over time it's just like a straight line. I'm at like 25,000, 30,000 now. Just slow build, there's no big win, you know, there's not like a huge spike anywhere. If there's a huge spike it's usually some spam bot. It's like you found a form, an open form, and then you gotta clean them out.

But I know you just said this isn't a show about daily email, but that is it. That is the heart of the business. It's it's the one thing I wouldn't stop doing. It's the last thing I'll automate. It's I mean, I would be terrified to stop doing it. That would throw everything into risk in my mind.

Value pricing in particular was a good fit for my personality. Not everybody has the same personality, so it can be harder for other people to learn and it could be there's a whole it's like one thing to understand something to be able to do it. It's another thing to be able to explain it to someone in a way that produces action. So you have to come up with a lot of different ways to explain it to different types of people, and I found that very exciting. I think it was like a a real you know, I'm the oldest of 5, so I just naturally Trulie, tell people what to do.

They naturally think my opinion is important. So I don't know, it was just a combination of the mission and just being excited about it. Plus my original early focus was specifically on pricing, which is the most fun problem in the universe. Pricing is the best Rubik's cube for your brain of all time. I've never found a puzzle that's more interesting than pricing.

So I just love puzzles dismantling that and trying to figure out what makes it work in pricing psychology and all the condiments stuff, and there's just so many great thinkers have talked about pricing in not so much macroeconomics, I think a lot of that is not useful in a business context, but microeconomics and behavioral economics. I've just super just loved it. It was just one of those things I would just read about constantly.

I don't know where people come from. Anecdotally for a while I would say anecdotally it was people from my list D'or podcast, but usually they're on both. But lately, when I get clients now, there's a question like, Do you know, PS, do you remember where you heard of me? And nobody can answer the question. They're like, I don't know.

You're everywhere. Like, I just I've just always known about it. So it's been long enough where people don't even know where they first heard of me. It does shock me when someone buys something from me and they're not on my list. So I guess I would say that most people who buy something from me are on my list.

Because I don't advertise, and social media doesn't do anything in terms of sales. So it has to be a list. Otherwise, where would they hear of it? It's either the list or the podcast, and the podcasts are really tough to make conversions from, so I'm sure it's the list.

Everyone knows about you. Right. You're in the podcast, whatever, that you don't need to worry about the rest. And I've never seen I say that all the time, but I've never seen a thriving business that didn't have that. It's like once you have this New pool of people discovering about you naturally, then you don't need to track shits under.

Like, it's just you know, I worked for Hotjar for a while. It was a startup software with the exact same feeling. It's like there were so many people coming through. Our websites were shit. The logo was 99¢ with that we bought on the thing. The software was also shit compared to what it is now, and yet it was growing and growing and growing. So once you know you have that, you know you are in demand. Right? There is There's demand for that stuff.

I was just copying my ex boss who wrote books and spoke at conferences. So I was like and the phone would just ring like magic. It's like he planted this garden and tomatoes would just grow. And so I was like, that's what I wanna do. So I'll just copy Chris and I'll write books and speak at conferences, and it totally worked.

That was the extent of my marketing. I had a blog, but it was stupid, and no one read it. I didn't have a mailing list, which was insane, and I just got leads. So I was extremely naive about I didn't even I wouldn't have if you asked me do you do any marketing, I would have said no, but that wasn't actually true. So when I started the list and I started doing coaching, D' I was copying Seth.

I'm like, I know if I write daily, I'll make money. That's not why I wrote daily, but I knew if I just stuck with that. That books would come out of it and that attention would come out of it and that people would be helped. T. You show up every day and help him and after a while, they're like, this is great.

I'm gonna give this guy $99 or I'm gonna give this guy $250 to take the course of the thing or the year, and I just knew it would it was like no doubt in my mind. And I had income still coming in from the old business. If I didn't I would have been really panicking. I don't know why I wouldn't have been able to do that. Like, it takes a while to ramp up that kind of a business, like a product it's basically a product business now, so that takes a while.

This writing is really much at the center of everything. I'm realizing it more and more now because Those daily emails then can be create can be turned into like, the most popular can be turned into, like, a YouTube script. It can be turned into LinkedIn post. The replies can then be reused, and it's really like it clarifies your brain so much. Sometimes what I tend to do, I don't know about you, but Sometimes I don't remember what I would say in this particular scenario, and I search back at what I wrote.

Oh, the Internet code. That's it. That's the shit. Yeah. That's what you should do. Like I'm some someone else.

I just wanna write the exact same thing over again. So, D. Yeah. Just pull it up and, like, oh, there it is. There's the answer. So it does get weird after you've got several years. And you can see why Seth has switched into climate and education. He did education for a while because it's like, what's he gonna talk about marketing wise? He hasn't already said.

So when you send it, you can send it to 10,000 people and every single one of them by default the way email works is the reply is private. It's It's not like comments on YouTube where people can like virtue signal or posture or they're trying to kick up controversy or something. It's private. So they share stuff that they would never share publicly. And it's so helpful to understand what you should write about next or what people are struggling with or that you're not doing a great job explaining something with the words that you're using, you need to use different words.

It's like free school, it's like free money almost. So mailing list absolutely do that. Everybody that starts 1 is like, I should have done this sooner. Every time, I wish I had, everybody says it. But the podcast, the 1 two punch of a mailing list plus a podcast is powerful.

To me, it's the more modern version of writing books and speaking at conferences because it's obviously it's remote, it's asynchronous, but having a podcast especially if you have guests on is great for networking, is great for your professional Connections. It's great for just getting better at speaking. I even tell people to, at least for the first 20, 30 episodes, edit your own podcast because it'll make you a better speaker. You'll stop saying and so, and, you know, making stupid sounds and because if you have to edit them all out then it gets annoying, it's easier to just not say or whatever, it makes you a better speaker. It also builds a lot of trust with people who listen regularly because to them it's almost like this celebrity status.

Like, when I first came on you're like, oh, if you said something like that and I'm just like, Yeah. Because you listen to probably a lot of my podcasts. It, like, creates this fake celebrity that has an effect on people that they just trust you. They feel like they know you even though you don't know them at Paul because podcasting is completely anonymous.

I would just switch to Discord or Circle or some other platform that's, like, doesn't matter. It's just plumbing. And as long as you've got the contact information for the people, like if Slack shut down tomorrow, I've got everyone's email. So I could just be like, hey, everybody meet me over here in Discord, or meet me over here in in discourse, or wherever circle load. And it doesn't matter. So I think one of those kind of like a web forum, anything like that.

Yeah. I mean, it's kinda like the business model where the platform matters. Pretty interested in Mastodon and the activity pub or whatever it's called, but I don't really care about that too much. I think email absolutely amazing, podcasting absolutely amazing, and if you have some kind of plumbing style online forum then that I'd say that's still you still own that audience, you can move that audience somewhere else very easily. That's what it is.

Is the audience portable? If the audience is portable, it doesn't scare me.

So if you're still working a day job and on your lunch break you're gonna write your daily email every day or Monday through Friday whatever, D'A common question is what do I write about? So you gotta decide. And a lot of times it's tough to just pull that out of thin air. I couldn't do it. I knew there were some things I was interested in, D' they were all related to my business, and I was just trying to teach people how to build a business like mine when I was consulting.

So I knew they were related, but I wasn't sure what the organizing principle was with the sun in my solar system. I wasn't sure what that was. I thought it was value pricing because that was the thing that I was spending most of my time learning about. But I found myself as I was writing this daily list, apologizing that this particular message wasn't about value pricing. I'd be like you're talking about, like, a productized service type of thing, and I'd be like, dot.

This is a really cool thing if you're getting started, it's like, it's not value pricing. It's still at least it's not trading time for money. And it took me a long time, I don't know how long, but months at least before I realized the sun in my content solar system was ditching hourly. I thought it was value pricing, but like I said, I had all of these other topics. There's all these planets in the solar system that don't revolve around value pricing.

In fact, they're completely different than value pricing. It's like, and it just took me a while. I was actually on a podcast when it hit me because someone asked me, Joel Pilger, as a matter of fact, he's like, You don't want to be just 1 of many, you want to be the 1 and only. And he said he shared this great hack. He was like Next time somebody asks you, or just as a thought experiment, ask yourself if somebody said what do you do?', would you say I'm a marketer' or would you say I'm the insert thing here, and he put me on the spot and he was like, what would you say you're the one of?

And I was like, I guess I'm the ditching hourly guy. And he was, like, yes, that's great. And we googled it, and I was just, like, the first 3 pages of results on Google for the ditching hourly guy, even though I had never said that ever. And then I was like, that's the central theme, which seems obvious in retrospect, but it wasn't at the time.

So now I've learned that I just Fucking execute on stuff. Even if it's not ready, I won't care. I really don't. So, yes, start writing and you'll see what your brain likes to talk about. I love to give examples of Brands and artists or whatever have that have nothing to do with tech and b to b because I'm fucking sick of hearing about them.

That gives me a lot of energy. I love talking about Lady Gaga. I'm gonna talk Talking about Ed Sheeran. I'm talking about Houdini. That that's the kind of shit I like. The other really good advice I learned from you was the clues to help you identify those planets. And I like what you said because we're very similar in that. So you talk about having a contrarian stance. What pisses you off?

I'm not playing a role with you. I'm genuinely being myself. I just like to ask questions that I wanna ask. I'm not Trying to pretend anything. So start writing to figure out those stuff. So you have 6 you say, like, contrarian stance, unique worldview, tips and tricks, infuriating competitors, Biotraps surprising philosophy you had written. So, yeah, start fucking writing. Okay. And then positioning. So let's talk briefly about positioning maybe statements.

Now that we've written for a bunch of times, what do we do next?

It's very difficult to position self. You almost need to bounce the ideas off of other people to help you figure out what it is because it's even for me, I feel like I'm pretty good at positioning for other people because I can See the Forest for the Trees, but when it's for yourself, it's really hard.

Maybe a lead magnet next, maybe you take some of your best stuff and turn it into an email course, then that will accelerate your sign ups a little bit. It'd be something you could talk about on other people's shows. You could come up with a product type service or an info product based on the feedback that you've gotten from the list. Something simple just like a checklist or a PDF or maybe if you're a developer or you make a little tool or something, a browser plug in, it could be anything. It would be nice, especially if you're still at a day job and you're building this audience, It would be nice to sell something, to start allowing people to flex their pay me money muscles and start thinking about copywriting for a sales page.

Like these are marketers listening, so they should be able to do this, but a lot of people still it's not easy. Takes practice, so come up with something you can sell for $9 or $49, $29, $19, whatever. You know, a 2 digit purchase that if you can create the value and if you can capture some of the value, I'd probably do that next because as soon as you sell that first one you will be Hooked. You'll be like, this is the best thing ever.

Some kind of a road mapping thing, something like that depending on what you do. Or at the very least put a paid phone call or strategy session or some kind of lightning round workshop thing, where it's just a paid phone call, you can spin that up in a half an hour and have it on your website for sale and try and start selling that. So it depends on where you're at, but you can either build the product ladder down from the top or up from the bottom.

It's got a price tag on the front of it. All the ingredients and stuff are on the back, but that's the fine print, nobody cares about that. All they care about is, do I have the problem that this thing solves? Find something. If you've been doing a lot of project work and you are starting out from that end of the spectrum, there's probably something that you usually do at at the beginning of each project, maybe at the end, but usually at the beginning of each project, that something like a design session or a strategy session or an architecture session, something like that, an audit, right, some kind of diagnostic with recommendations.

And you can package that up and sell that. There's a lot of benefits to doing that, but that would be like a example of a productized service, like a road map. Dom. So what is the definition of a productized service? It's a fixed scope service that you sell at a published price on your website.

And the sales page is like that label on the bottle of Aspirin or Motrin or whatever. These are the benefits, this is the price, here's what to expect, and it's not all about you, it's not all about your process, it's not all about that. It's like, here are the benefit, here's the pain that you're experiencing, here's the dream that you want to have, 'here is a fix for it and this is the price'. So once you start selling a few of those, it's not gonna change your overall revenue dramatically, dom, but it does separate your time from your money, allows you to optimize and increase your profits by doing less and delivering as much or better value over time. And a lot of times it'll lead into project work anyway.

And you can charge higher prices because they already trust you, you're the one that did the road map. Can you just give us a proposal? Well, I'm gonna be the most expensive. No, please give us the proposal anyway. Okay?

And I interviewed Alex Hillman on my ditching hourly show and he exclusively did I don't know if he still does it, but he exclusively did this as an approach. He would just road map, road map, road map. D'Am and then if he wanted the execution business that would potentially come after that, he would get it 100% of the time. So if you are doing project work, a road map type of first step phase is a really good next thing to build.

1, forcing your existing weekly readers to opt in to stay on the list As you transition to daily, because I was about to do that, so thank you. And then keeping the waiting list and starting a separate daily list. So don't do any of that. Instead, Just fucking start writing daily. And that's what I did. Yes. I got a bunch of unsubscribe at the start, like, way higher than usual. That's normal. And I panicked. But then after 2 or 3 weeks, it started to really go down quite a lot.

And he talks about positioning in a very different way. It was more like finding an axis that none of the competition is competing on and making that your axis. Very interesting, worth the price of the whole thing just for that video. And I've never seen him talk about it anywhere else. So the marketing seminar is one, there's a book called How to Measure Anything by Douglas Hubbard which is D'Altering.

I was never the same after I read that book. It's super critical to understand the concepts in that book if you're gonna try value pricing which we haven't really talked about today, but if you are going to do that then that's super important. But in general in business you need to measure intangibles all the time and my audience is very engineering mindset so they feel like if they can't measure something exactly why bother, but you have to get over that because you're never measuring anything exactly, you're always measuring it enough for the decision that you're about to make. So you just need to measure it enough and there's no like you don't know how tall you are, no one does. Exactly.

But it's six one's close enough. That's, like, close enough for any reason you would ask. That book is great. And then The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy is like a legendary, sort of direct marketing copywriter and I think everybody listening to this should be writing every day or at least a lot more than they probably are. Getting better at writing will never go out of style, AI notwithstanding.

D'So that book, specifically for copywriting, that book it's almost like uranium. There's like danger in there. There's like some black hat stuff that you might wanna stay away from, but that guy knows copywriting. So if you wanna get better at copywriting, sales pages, direct mail, offers, It is it might seem a little dated, but it's solid gold

You'll get the other one. So Google Jonathan Stark, And you'll find him. Obviously, I didn't wanna talk about it too much today because I feel like they can read about it pretty fast from you. And the information that you shared today, I don't think you've really I shared that much around, so I'm happy about the choice. So, yeah, where can people connect with you and learn more from you? Do they just have to Google you?