[DD] Book Tours, TikTok, and Twitter Tantrums

>> Mur Lafferty: Ditch Diggers season ten episode one. >> Speaker B: Ditch diggers appear and ain't no wannabes here with some not so nice advice for your writing career. To be clear, no punches will be pulled. But the punch made me spike how they like before they get on the mic to my left we got the mighty Mur Lafferty. And if I piss her off, believe me, she'll come after me. And her co host Ursula Vernon, on the right. Yes, she's furniture. Recite a slime mold speech tonight. So

settle in, folks. Buckle in and buddha time to meddle in a way to make you write a. >> Ursula Vernon: Shut up. >> Speaker B: It's hard work, but the perk is that it's fun and exciting. Facebook will still be there when you're done writing. Ditch diggers. >> Speaker B: Ditch diggers. >> Mur Lafferty: And, I forgot last time to say we were coming to you from

some sort of place in the Ditch Diggers manor. So I suppose this week we're coming to you from the office of retractions in the Ditch Diggers manor. >> Ursula Vernon: So how are accounting? >> Mur Lafferty: Yes, how are you, Ursula? >> Ursula Vernon: I am good. I am doing well. I have a week where I have nothing scheduled except writing and just normal. Every day is normal and I don't have to go somewhere or have an appointment. And honestly, it's almost terrifying.

>> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, same here. I don't have, ah, a trip for many, many, many weeks. So for like the first time since March, that'll be. I'm not looking to the next trip. And so I don't know if I'll ever survive a book tour. I don't know if I'll ever be big enough to need a book tour, but if they ever want to send me on one, I don't think I can survive it because, well, speaking of book tours. >> Ursula Vernon: Yes, that was in fact what the retraction I need to make is about.

I did my math wrong last time. I had a decimal place off. So my publisher actually probably made like, okay, between my publisher and my bookseller, they made like 130 grand off that, which they then split because it's 50% royalty. So they actually did really well off the book tour, which is great because I'd been thinking, oh God, they did terrible. They'll never send me on tour again. but they did awesome. And I, instead of getting $1,300, will, in theory, someday get 13,000.

Except, it's in Australian, which is two thirds of the US. So that I'm not going to try to do math again because that's what got me in trouble last time, but, and also I had to pay for Kevin's plane ticket, which was 6000 australian. well it was round trip. And then we had all these little other plane jumps and whatnot. And then my agent takes 15%. But the point is, at some point I will probably get like three grand in like eight months

or a year. And that's pretty awesome for two weeks of getting to go to Australia. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, yeah. No kidding. That's pretty awesome. >> Ursula Vernon: Yeah. yes. So I take back what I said about book tours not necessarily being profitable. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. But that one was. >> Mur Lafferty: Congratulations.

>> Ursula Vernon: Also, I was just emceeing, m, a book tour that came through our town and with Chad, ah, Veronica Roth Nevo, and two people named Rachel and Andrea. And I've forgotten both of their last names. Off the top of my head. Andrea was much cooler than I will ever be in my life. but every now and again you get they do a thing a lot these days where it's like authors in conversation. They realize just having an author sit on stage and

talk is boring. and also by like the fourth day of book tour, the author's eyes are twirling in opposite directions and desperately. >> Mur Lafferty: Question they haven't heard yet. >> Ursula Vernon: Yes. So they started having other authors show up to interview them and this time they were like hey Ursula, you're local, come interview this panel of four authors. So I did. It was fabulous. And but that is the thing that sometimes you get to do on book tours or you get to

do if you're not on the book tour. And I recommend it highly. It's fun. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, it is fun. hopefully you and I can meet up again. I think we've just not been hitting right our last couple of releases. Because you were deep into chemo, I guess, when I had my last. >> Ursula Vernon: Well on your last one. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, yeah. And, and I don't think I told you this. >> Ursula Vernon: McCarthy were in Boston for the last one.

>> Mur Lafferty: McIntyre's books wants us to do something together. McIntyre's books in hill in Chatham county. >> Ursula Vernon: Yeah, I know them. >> Mur Lafferty: I know you know them. I'm saying this for the benefit of. >> Ursula Vernon: Oh yes. Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, I apologize. I forgot the doing this for an audience. >> Mur Lafferty: Yes, yes, yes, yes. McIntyre's books wants us to do some sort of

event. So that's, that's gonna happen. So if you're in North Carolina, watch this space, watch this space McIntyre's is a, really neat, small, local bookstore. Very kind, like, really treats their local authors well. So, yeah, I missed, I was supposed to be part of their crime event, and then my husband got Covid. So I'm like, well, I don't have Covid, but I'm living with someone with COVID and I could be just, I guess it's not patient zero now by a long shot,

but still, I would be unethical. Yeah, exactly. So I had to pull out of that. I felt bad, but, yeah, still better not to make everybody at the convention ill. yeah. So we don't have a whole lot to talk about that are planned. But I, asked Ursula what was going on. She mentioned, what's the new, the new thing people are mad about on threads, which I have avoided. So I'm not on threads, but Ursula is.

>> Ursula Vernon: I'm not really on threads. Like, I have an account there, but I look at it once a week maybe. But a lot of other authors are much more active there. Chuck, Wendig, and Scalzi are both fairly active there. And so I go over. >> Mur Lafferty: Unfortunately, it was at this point that the feed stopped feeding and the audio stopped recording. So we're going have a little bit of technical difficulties, and then we'll be right back.

Okay. Veil of ice. Cat says we're back. Thank you, folks. I do not know what to do in this situation. This is the problem with streaming being self taught. So, I'm very sorry. Don't know what is happening or what to do. So if anybody ever has, if any of you streamers know, let me know what I'm supposed to do in that case. Because everything looked okay on my end, and if it didn't look okay on my end, I still don't know what I would do.

But anyway, Ursula was saying that somebody was posting about more, absolutes, which anybody who listens to, I should be writing knows I hate absolutes. is that first, wait, third person's out. Past tense. >> Ursula Vernon: Third person is out. Past tense is out. And, you have to be on book talk. >> Mur Lafferty: Okay, so, so one and two. No, it's just, that's just not true. It's not true. It's like, you don't get,

there's not, like, a fashion thing. Like, I'm gonna write a book in third person, and my editor is gonna be like, well, you know, this is good, but you know what? Murder. Third person is so out. You're, like, wearing after Labor Day. You're just not cool anymore. So you got to change the whole book. >> Ursula Vernon: And it kind of reminds me, like, maybe a decade ago, because that's how often I pay attention to fashion. There was a headline that went by that

was, big boobs are in. And I'm like, thank you. I, did not realize that I had been unfashionable in the chest region for the last decade or so. There's not a damn thing I can do about it. What, am I supposed to go to a plastic surgeon and change them out according to Labor Day? >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The same for me is like, oh, suddenly I shouldn't go out in public because my chest is not in. I just. Yeah, it's. It's that

kind of thing. It's just weird. but what gets me is it. This made me think. It's like I've been working on training my dog not to be reactive for several years now, and we're getting there, but still, you know, she hears something, and anybody who knows a dog knows that look. It's like, snap to attention. Eyes are wide, ears are perked, and then, you know, it's like you can hear it coming. Here comes the barrage of barks and outrage and running up to the window.

And where is the threat? I will eat it. >> Ursula Vernon: Yep. >> Mur Lafferty: And even when you're like, look, that is the male person. And you know what? I am in charge here, and I'm not worried, so maybe you shouldn't. Somebody explained, trying to get your dog to calm down when they're like that is like. And you think they know their, their commands is like, okay, so you can do the times tables by five? Sure. Okay. I'm gonna stick a gun in your

face in a parking lot at night. Now, can you do your times tables? Probably not. >> Ursula Vernon: It's. >> Mur Lafferty: It's just this. It's the reactivity thing. And I think people who say stuff like this don't give a crap about what they're saying. They don't give a shit. They're just saying what they think will get us reacting like dogs. It's just like, here comes a threat. Oh, shit. You are so wrong.

Stupid person on the Internet. And then, you know, they got their looks or their eyeballs, and they don't have an incredible need to people please like me. So they're, like, happy when they get people angry because they're getting attention. >> Ursula Vernon: And that's the thing that baffles me, because, people say, like, you know, any publicity is good publicity. No, it's definitely not true. where is, Milo Yiannopoulos or whatever now.

>> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. >> Ursula Vernon: and the, but, like, if you're selling, if you're promoting a book, okay, I guess maybe that's one way you can try to get. That's one reason you would want people doing it. But just doing it so people pay attention to you is, I mean, people do weird things. I don't understand it. But the point is, getting people mad at you does not sell your book to them.

So if you are trying to sell a book, saying things like that will not, will not, will not help. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. And, you know, part of it is, is an integrity thing. Like the idea of doing a shock video about something going on in writing and then making myself a big reaction photo. Like, I found out all of that started with Mister Beast. And so, you know, you look on YouTube and you see people's faces, like. And what they're doing is they're reacting to the

latest main character on Twitter. Oh, my God. And that gets you eyeballs, and that gets you streams, and that gets YouTube and TikTok liking you and giving you money. And then I just feel crappy. And I thought about going onto book talk. I thought about being part of booktube. Be on booktalk is like, I don't know, wear clothes. Are you gonna do what people are gonna be interested in? No one's gonna tell you how to fucking do that. Just put on some clothes and you're on book talk.

Yay. I went and there's, like, there's people doing, like, a lot of really cute things with covers and, and cuts and magic stuff. And there's this one woman, speaking of big breasts being in. It's like, I don't want to. I'm not trying to kink shame or body shame anybody. But her book talk was featuring her bouncing chest. Heavily. Heavily. I mean, it was just, there was a lot of bouncing. And I'm like, I. Okay, you're talking about books. You're getting lots of views. But I just, I can't.

I can't. Not even the physical impossibility. It's just like, I can't imagine. I can't do that. It just makes me feel completely disingenuous. And maybe that's why my podcasts aren't bigger or whatever, because I don't go for whatever is hot. I've seen people, I'm a big fan of the, Barbara rhubarb cake song, and now I'm seeing people on TikTok use it because it's what's getting views? And they even point out, I have no idea

what this song is, but it's getting views. So I'm going to use it and I'm thinking, I don't understand this world. Just hand me my cane and my dentures because I'm. >> Ursula Vernon: And some clouds to yell at and. >> Mur Lafferty: Some clouds to yell at. I've got a cloud to yell at. I've got a podcast. So, yes, you get to my clouds, I'll stop talking now. >> Ursula Vernon: You go, I mean, it's. The attention economy is very much a thing.

God knows. The problem is that I had a reasonably, you know, popular Twitter. I had like 60,000 followers or whatever. some of them probably weren't bots. I have never figured out how to monetize that in any way that is like, that would justify the amount of work doing it. I was on Twitter because I liked being on Twitter and I have the ADHD and I enjoyed arguing with trolls because I'm like that. And, it was. But I know there are, there's so much about how to maximize the number of people who

see you, which. Great. But I have never figured out how that translated into money. And, for some people, maybe it doesn't, maybe it's just a hobby. I want, you know, 11 million people to follow me because that's my hobby, which. Great. Knock yourself out. Hobbies are awesome. others like, I don't know how influencers make money. Apparently companies give them things. But that, whole economy is a vast mystery to

me. And it just seems like so much work, a lot of it, and so I don't know, like, and it is, it is entirely possible that there are people monetizing TikTok in ways I am completely unfamiliar with. And if so, more power to them. Like, you know, you rock, get down with your bad self, but, I don't know how it works. And, you know, yes. Like, the closest I ever came to anything like that is that I made the biting pair of salamanca, aka the lol. What pair?

>> Mur Lafferty: Yes. >> Ursula Vernon: I did the original art back in 2005, and then at some point it escaped in the wild and became a meme. And, the only way I could figure out to monetize that was I made pins of the low wet pair that I sold at conventions. And it was fine. I probably made, you know, over, let's see, that was 2005. It is. Okay. So over 19 years, I probably made a good thousand bucks in pins. This is not a, ah, have a

weird piece of art. You did go viral. However, not what I would call a, viable career path. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, I'm sure the person who created Pepe the frog is not considering it a good, good thing for their career. >> Ursula Vernon: How he's so mad about it. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. >> Ursula Vernon: Oh, no, he's a. He's not a Nazi or anything like that. He's. And he's like, Pepe was never supposed to be like this. Oh, God. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah.

>> Ursula Vernon: Yeah. you know, life. I don't know. I will yell at the clouds with you. I. There's. There has to be some way that people are making money off this that I don't understand. >> Mur Lafferty: well, I think you get, when you do a certain amount of time, the views make for more ad views, and so you get more, you get money that way. >> Ursula Vernon: Like TikTok or I go on YouTube that goes. I don't know.

Does that happen on. On, TikTok? Do they give you ad money there? >> Mur Lafferty: I think so. >> Ursula Vernon: You might be right. This is. This is how little I know about it. >> Mur Lafferty: I'll have to ask Grant. a friend of mine's fairly big on. On TikTok, or he was. He. I think, like YouTube, the, algorithms change every once in a while, and you have no idea why. A million people saw one video and 300 people saw the next one. But, one of the big things.

>> Ursula Vernon: That I've seen just, on the outside with the algorithm changing the stuff is that never rely on that money as being permanent, because so many people, like, I was getting, you know, $10,000 a month on ads, and now I'm getting $15 because they changed a thing. It's, yeah, I, know Instagram did that, too. Like, a lot of artists I follow, were like, they have changed

things. And apparently, the only way that people are going to see this is if you, update at least once a week with a video thing or something. I don't know. It was a few years ago. I don't even. Yeah. it is a very complicated ecosystem, and following it requires a whole bunch of brainpower that I do not have. And so the people who can navigate that have a skill set, undoubtedly, I am not going to. It is. It is a skill that they are using and knowledge that they have, and I have neither.

>> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, I think my, from chat we have, banks are super understanding about. I can't pay my mortgage this month because the algorithm changed. That's, They're super understanding about that, just as they are about here. Here's my mortgage in the exposure that I've gotten. but since we should be doing more than just flailing about and saying, I don't understand thing, we are both online. We became pros after the. What I think is probably the china Meowville event

Horizon. Chinaville says he's the last science fiction author at least who was able to build a career with no social media exposure at all. And pretty much the thought is everybody who came after China Mabel, which I guess was around 2005, Purdue street station somewhere around there. >> Ursula Vernon: no, it had to be before that because I remember reading it on my couch. But, hey, I have the Internet.

>> Mur Lafferty: Hey. Yeah, okay. Anyway, I remember that was something China Mabel said that he did not have, Twitter or Facebook presence because. Because 2000. 2000. Wow. That was quarter of a century ago. Pardon me while I go and. No, I already got my dentures. I said that earlier. I have. I don't know, really, this is more of a frustration with me because I won't play muskie boys games. and so I left Twitter.

I did not officially leave, although they might kick me off. I don't remember the last time I logged in. I don't want. I don't know about threads. I don't want to join Facebook for the third time. But I realize that Facebook already has stuff from me because I do have Instagram. when you're good at writing things and not much else, it's hard to think about what to put on photo site or a video site. For some reason, podcasting and

streaming feels like it's separate to me. Like, I don't worry when I turn on the camera to do this stream, but if I suddenly turn on my phone camera to do a, short video, I freeze and freak out. And suddenly everything is bad about my appearance and my lighting and everything. And I think I'm going. If I go and try to look more camera ready, I will use that time in getting ready to talk myself out of doing it in the first place.

>> Ursula Vernon: So, the trend I hate the most with conventions is that a lot of them now are like, can you record a short video saying you're going to be there to advertise it? And one of them asked me that recently. I just sent back, no, I will do anything else you want, but I will not do that. Like, I will. I will draw you pictures, I will write you a short story. I will do whatever, but I am not recording a video. And the, contra actually sent back. Yeah,

I hate doing those, too. My marketing guy just asked me to ask. No problem. Thank you. >> Mur Lafferty: okay, so what about if you. If, someone messaged you and said, I want you to do a video, but I'm gonna just call you up on Zoom or meet and just record you saying, so you. All you have to do is, like, sit down and talk. Or is it still being in front of camera? That stress. >> Ursula Vernon: I don't mind doing, like, zoom interviews, with people,

that sort of thing. I don't mind doing panels on zoom, which I have done. I have generally found those fun, but, it is just me alone in front of a camera where I have to set up the stuff and, like, up my camera on the tripod. I'm just like, oh, God, this is such bullshit. Yeah, it's, Yeah. And I. Again, old woman yells at clouds. But I hated the pivot to video. I will spend 20 minutes

looking for something written down. Like, if I'm looking for how to do something, I will spend ten minutes looking or 20 minutes looking for written instructions rather than watch a ten minute video. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. >> Ursula Vernon: Like, I know it takes more time, but I'm gonna need to, like, I'm not just gonna go back and forth on the video over and over again. I. The way that I have to on instructions with text, my brain does not function that way, and I hate it.

>> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. >> Ursula Vernon: And while I'm complaining, kids, these days with their music and their, their bebop and, Yeah, okay, I'm out. >> Mur Lafferty: They're bebop. >> Ursula Vernon: Yeah, they're bebop. Anyway, we've not actually talked about. Wait, have we talked about the business of writing? Maybe it's that the business of TikTok is not automatically the business of writing. And if anyone tells you you have to be on

booktalk, they are a lying liar. What lies? >> Mur Lafferty: Let's take a break. We've got an ad coming. Even though I ran one early, it apparently still is not going to help. So there's apparently an ad break now. All right, we are back. so if we have any advice about this, the actual business of writing, the advice is what it's always been, at least from me, which is,

if you're having fun, do it. And if you're not having fun, don't stress about it, because, you know, if you're stressing about something, it should be making your book better or, you know, doing whatever marketing that your publisher's not doing for you. because I was thinking about this, and I realized I started on Twitch four years ago, and, it has done pretty much, except for the people I've met who have enriched my life or helped my career in other ways. Streaming itself has not helped my

career. I've not built a huge following here. it hasn't done anything, but I really love it and I have a lot of fun, and that makes it worth it to me. So I'm continuing to work on Twitch, even though if you look at my numbers, you'd think, why the hell are you doing this? Getting anything? But, I am getting something, and that's, I'm enjoying myself and I think that that makes me make

better content. and if people don't agree, then, well, it's free, and there's a lot of other stuff out there that's also free. >> Ursula Vernon: It was like, it's like I was on Twitter. It was, you know, I enjoyed being there, I enjoyed the format, and I was having fun.

So, and I do think that if you're going to use social media, using it because you're being forced to, because either you feel you have to, because somebody told you you have to be on x. Shit, I can't even use x as like, the stand in for an unknown anymore. I. Damn you, musk. you have to be on, platform y or, you know, whatever is. No, that'll just stress you out. And, it's, you don't make good stuff when you're stressed out.

And, like, there are, it is better, I have found, on social media to not do it than to do it badly. Because how many people do we know on social media who have managed to make an absolute blithering ass of themselves? And I'm not saying that I am immune from that, but, >> Mur Lafferty: It would. >> Ursula Vernon: Be better if they just didn't do social media. And if it's not making them happy and if it's making them miserable, it would

be twice as better if they didn't do social media. There. That's my math. Twice as better. >> Mur Lafferty: I have to admit, back in the heyday of Twitter, there was somebody who I was following and a friend was following, and the person was. >> Ursula Vernon: I. >> Mur Lafferty: won't give any details, but so bad at it that we used to demand a dollar from each other because it's like, oh, God, I looked at this person's stream, it's

like, you gotta put a dollar in the jar, man. You know, you're not supposed to do that. And I think it's unfair to tell people, just get on book talk. Everyone must get on booktube. What does that mean specifically, what does that mean in regards to my career? Does it involve planning, lighting, makeup, a script? Does it plan? Does it involve the latest filters, the latest hot songs? What does that mean? Because just get on book talk. That tells me nothing.

Nothing. Yeah. >> Ursula Vernon: And for a lot of us, particularly those of us who present as female, putting your image out there on the Internet is a, you know, people are not nice if you do not fall into the conventionally attractive mold. >> Mur Lafferty: Hm. >> Ursula Vernon: And so if I was going to do it, I'd be doing it with puppets, you know, or on a stick, having a conversation kind of thing about books, which would, in fact, probably do

well now that I'm thinking about it. And I can make it really cool, but I have enough shit going on in my life. yeah. yeah, I do. What makes you happy? Like, being on book talk will not give you a career if you don't have one. I'm pretty sure it might. >> Mur Lafferty: Then you're probably already there making your career. I mean, yes, us telling you right now, go get on book talk right now, it's. It's. That. That's worth nothing. That. That advice is worth zero. And also, like, adverbs.

Whatever point of view you choose, whatever tense you use in a book, it's all a tool. Every single thing is a tool. And you can use it poorly or you can use it well. Somebody's saying up, hammers are out. Can't use hammers anymore. I mean, go tell a carpenter. Can't use hammers anymore. Oh, Philips Phillips screws, you loser. Don't use those. Nobody uses those anymore. >> Ursula Vernon: I have used a butter knife too, as a screwdriver so many times in my life.

>> Mur Lafferty: Is it because someone cool told you the screwdrivers were out? >> Ursula Vernon: No, it's because I couldn't find a goddamn screwdriver. And I know where the butter knife is. >> Mur Lafferty: See, I really actually don't know the point we're trying to make here, but I think you. >> Ursula Vernon: I've lost it too. yes. Okay. What was I saying earlier? Metaphors are like hammers, and sometimes everything looks like a nail. Yeah, I think we, said that.

>> Mur Lafferty: Before we started recording. That was good. >> Ursula Vernon: Yes. So, what are you working on right now, mur? >> Mur Lafferty: I have book edits to do. I have many book edits. >> Ursula Vernon: Oh, God, I'm sorry. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be working from tomorrow straight until I hit deadline. because like I said, we just did the final trip in a while. And it was a very stressful weekend trip where my

kid graduated from college. Again, I'm so very thrilled they graduated with, like, honors and summa, cum laude and laude or latte or whatever it is. See, I don't know what it is because I did not get anywhere close to that when I graduated. And phi beta Kappa and just a bunch of latin words.

Very proud, very proud of the kid. But, it was, the ceremony was 55 degrees and raining and outside, and there was this, like, graveyard of, we looked online, so there was a graveyard of umbrellas, near the entrance, because they would not allow you to bring in an umbrella. And some people decided, by God, it is may, and my kid is graduating from college. I am going to dress as if it is may, and I'm celebrating something not as if it is 55 degrees and

raining. So, there were people there in, like, summer dresses. It was, they were very pretty, very, very goose pimply as well. But, anyway, that has been my main focus for quite some time. And now that I'm home, I can focus on other things, like getting this book done and hopefully get it done in time. Also, I don't think I've mentioned this. I'm gonna need some minor surgery soon, and I'm just trying to figure out how to fit that in with this whole book deadline thing.

>> Ursula Vernon: But it's really annoying when the health issues do not schedule around your deadline. Like, I was like, you know, okay, I can probably work this cancer thing in 2026. like, can you take a number and then they don't. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah, mine technically is elective, but it's, like, elective and gonna happen at some point. Might as well get it done before it becomes, required. So, yes, that's it. so, yeah, book edits, recovering from trip, and

scheduling, minor surgery. How about you, Ursula? What are you up to? >> Ursula Vernon: I am just gonna sit and write, like, on this book, which is due in August, and I am over halfway done and nice. I'm enjoying it, and it's going fairly easily, which is so rare and lovely. >> Mur Lafferty: For the other shooting to drop. >> Ursula Vernon: I really am, at some point, I'm going to hit the, this is the worst book ever written. I need Kevin to read it to see if it shames my

ancestors. But normally I hit that at about the 60% mark, and I haven't hit it yet, and it's at, like, 78,000 words. So I'm afraid that either I, will not hit it. Well, it would be great. If I didn't hit it, or worse. This book is so long, I am not yet at the 60% mark, which would be horrifying. So, yeah. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. >> Ursula Vernon: Well, don't want a hand in a doorstop.

>> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. Yeah. This is something we could probably talk about later, because I know if I get you on the topic of fonts, you're just gonna run off. but not necessarily. >> Ursula Vernon: I love a good font. >> Mur Lafferty: Speaking of Macintyre's, I was, I was signing a bunch of my books at once, and I hadn't really looked at, like, the shambling guides and six wakes and, the midsole and murders books, like, next to each other. And I'm, pretty sure six wakes looks

fatter than station eternity. And station eternity is the longest book I've ever written. Station eternity was like 125, 130. >> Ursula Vernon: Font size has shrunk significantly. I can no longer read physical books that have come out recently, including my own, because they keep shrinking the font size. >> Mur Lafferty: Great. >> Ursula Vernon: That's why I read everything in ebook, because I have to make the

font bigger. and it's because paper is expensive, ink is cheap, paper is expensive, and paper has been expensive since the pandemic. So they're trying to fit, more book into less space. >> Mur Lafferty: So I should probably write shorter books and then they might be readable people, over 45. >> Ursula Vernon: Yeah. And if you, if you, you know, write novellas. And I love the novel, I've written many novellas, but someone, there will always be a negative

review. That's like, it's fine, but it's really short. It's almost a novella. You're like, it's on the COVID I did. >> Mur Lafferty: You did? Did you look at the price of regular books versus novellas? I mean, that's also a clue. >> Ursula Vernon: I did actually have someone write in once to tell me, m, are you aware of how much they are selling your hardcover novellas for? Because I can't afford that.

And I'm like, I am afraid I do not set the price for a hardcover novel in it, like, like school. >> Mur Lafferty: Do you know this? You should fix this. >> Ursula Vernon: I like, the library is a great resource. There are online lending. I recommend use them highly. I love the library. So that's. That's all I got. >> Mur Lafferty: Yeah. >> Ursula Vernon: Because. Yeah, I agree. But, you know, life. >> Mur Lafferty: Indeed.

Well, I, think I am done. I'm gonna go take a migraine pill before this headache turns into a migraine and maybe hydrate and get some food or something. I don't know. I'm pretty wrecked after the drive yesterday. But where? >> Ursula Vernon: Yeah, you're recording after a 14 hours drive that. This is amazing. This is, this is the Iron man ditch diggers. >> Mur Lafferty: Yes, indeed. you can find me@mervrous.com and search for Mer Lafferty or mighty myrrh on most platforms. And

if you don't see it, I'm not there. That's pretty easy. It's Mer with one r, just like half of murder. It's really easy. Ursula, where do we find you? You have two. >> Ursula Vernon: I do. T. Kingfisher is the one that you're most likely to encounter professionally these days. there's a t Kingfisher website. I believe it redirects to Red Wombat Studio, though, which is where you can see all my books. If you want to talk to me online, blue sky is the easiest. I'm also t kingfisher there.

>> Mur Lafferty: This episode of Ditch Diggers was brought to you by the fabulous. You can be a fabulous, too if you support the patreon@patreon.com. mightymr. Or you can also support over at Twitch, twitch tv mightymr. Or you can support my substack at mightymr dot substack.com. theme music provided by Devospice. You can find out more about

him@devospice.com. this podcast is released under a Creative Commons Attribution non commercial node derivatives 4.0 license, art by numbers, ninja hosting by Libsyn, and you can see the archives@merverse.com. thanks for listening. >> Speaker B: Ditch diggers.