Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan | 9

A listener note, this episode contains adult language.

Where were you in 2006? That sounds like I'm accusing you of a crime. You're gonna hate my answer. I was in sixth grade. Shut up. No, you were not. Yes, I was. Okay, that does track. I guess I was 16. I knew. Were you very like 2006 culture? I attempted to be. That was a time period where I really was trying to convince myself that I had the body type that could pull off like a long-sleeve Henley under a ground.

a graphic key like my favorite Disney Channel stars and it was not working for me. That reminded me that this is a callback to our Britney episode, but I just saw they're making Zoe 102. With, I believe, Jamie Lynn. That's sacrilegious. It is strange how much the two thousands like are back. So 2006 was the year Twitter started. What? Set us on a dark path. The blogosphere was in its heyday. Like reality TV was just taking off. And just about six months before this. TMZ What?

TMZ, of course, is like unapologetically sleazy, trashy. Mm-hmm. They're like very ruthless in getting the next big story. Yeah. And And in two thousand six they were like brand new and looking for that first really big story to put them on the map. And this one night they get this video. It is of Paris Hilton, you know, heiress, it girl. That's hot. Loves it. Etc. And her friend Brandon Davis.

And they're leaving a club and Brandon Davis starts going off on Lindsey Lohan. Oh my God. Let's watch. Lindsay Load has got the stinkiest fing sweaty orange vagina anyone has ever seen. I haven't seen it. Okay. I remember the rest of this video, especially the part where he calls Lindsay a firecrotch. Because I had to have that explained to me. I was like 11 or 12 at the time and I did not understand what it meant.

And I remember it being all over the news. I will also say that as a member of the ginger community, I was personally affected by this video. I forgot that we're both two marginalized communities, me being black and you being ginger. This was huge for TMZ, obviously because it was Paris Hilton, who was like one of the biggest celebrities at the time, with someone who was trash talking, Lindsay Lohan, who is the other sort of reigning it girl. And

TMZ knew they had this giant hit, and obviously it went super viral practically overnight. And Suddenly the whole world is like, what the heck happened between Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan? What? is going on. Yeah, I don't actually know. Like, I don't know why they started beefing in the first place. Well, it's all very high school. Like, they are the Queen Bee's good friends until one night.

Something changes. And the next thing we know, they're getting into fights at nightclubs, making digs in the press, and using the paparazzi to tell their side of the story. From Wondery, I'm Matt Belisai. And I'm Sidney Bellas. This video was like the point of no return for this feud, and we'll get into all the nitty-gritty of it, but it's also super interesting because it was a feud that the paparazzi and the tabloids and the early internet really turned into something huge.

for their own benefit. Like for a lot of these sites, they were just Yeah. having a huge story like this that got them so many clicks every single time there was an update. This like made them as platforms. Oh god, this is what started the horrible place we're in now. Everything that we're talking about is like the precursor to much of what comes in our world now. Paris was the mean girl of the early 2000s. Yeah, let's dive in. Let's get into it. This is Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lip.

Let's just talk about Paris Hilton. Like what do you remember about Paris in the early aughts? I... think she made me uncomfortable because I remember she would talk a lot about how being skinny was king. And I remember not really understanding the concept of the simple life. Mm-hmm. But when she first started like

getting in all of the tabloids. I was too young to really understand a lot of what she was doing. Right. Yeah, you were just a child, really. My mom would have to like explain a lot of what was happening with her. So Paris Hilton I guess is kind of an enigma because she wears so many hats. It's like party girl model.

reality TV star, socialite, DJ? Yes, I do know that she called herself one of the top five DJs in the world. And of course, she's an heiress. She is the great granddaughter of You know, the guy who founded Hilton Hotels She is really the first person who got the like famous for being famous treatment. She invented so many people that came after her. Like Kim Kardashian quite literally would not be a thing without Paris Hilton.

Yeah, she was like the original influencer and basically like the archetype for everything that is on the internet now. So In two thousand three, that is when her sex tape comes out. And she's like 20 in that. Yeah. And she's later said she was pressured into filming it. And her boyfriend at the time, this guy named Rick Solomon, who was 31, he was a poker player, a real sleaze bag.

He was trying to launch this Girls Gone Wild-esque website and obviously becomes like this huge national joke at the time. The late night host. Are having a field day with it. Our poor parents. Can you imagine how they must have felt? That she did a porno film in a Marriott Hotel. Of course, today we call it revenge porn because that's what it is, but at the time she is perceived as the wrong one. She even has to talk about this on CNN at one point years later.

Now when people look at me they think that I'm something I'm not. Just because of one incident one night with someone who I was in love with. People assume, oh, she's a slut. It's hard because I'll never I'll have to live with that for the rest of my life. and explain it to my children. I honestly think things were just

more lawless back then. If you tried to release somebody's sex tape now, you would be like publicly shamed and there's actual like legislation that can be held against you if you do that. Yeah. And most importantly, what we know now that Paris has revealed in both her memoir and the documentary that she starred in about herself, she revealed that in her teens, her parents sent her to these schools for troubled teens. Oh no. That were essentially like Torture camp.

It is like psychological torture and just like the kids who come out of there, and also kids have died in those. Yeah, I mean she describes in her recent memoir that she still to this day says she has nightmares about it. Allegedly they would strip them naked and put them in solitary confinement.

And then every night they would allegedly have these rap sessions where the kids would like verbally abuse one another. Like they would be encouraged to do this. Yeah, they took the abused kids and turned them into abusers. Right. And so she ends up leaving this place when she turns 18. Thank God. But that is like, we know all of this now as part of the reason why she ended up creating this kind of party girl baby voice.

It sounds a little like she's sort of dissociating. She says it was just that she didn't think people would like the real her. So it's this invention in part to kind of you know, not be herself. And I know that contributes to a lot of how Paris acted in the early two thousands. I don't think it excuses everything she said because she said some real Really terrible stuff, but it definitely contributed to a lot of her behavior and probably a lot of her substance use.

But yeah, really like whether she realizes it or not, her kind of mean girl persona means that she's striking out at people before they can strike out at her.

So while all of that is happening with Paris, Lindsay Lohan stardom is taking off. She is becoming this huge star. She goes from the parent trap to freaky Friday. Love it. And then of course the iconic. Mean girls. You know, she's a major like household name. She is a star. And As she starts getting more famous, she starts becoming much more of a target for the paparazzi and the tabloids and the early internet. Mm-hmm. As does her family. And Turns out her family is Cuckoo. Messy boots.

Messy as heck. Messy boots. Her dad is like a just a walking disaster. The most divorced man that has possibly ever existed. There's this This clip from Oprah where Oprah summarizes Lindsay's messy family drama, we might as well just listen to that. When she was just four years old, her father Michael served jail time in a stock fraud case. Since then, he's been arrested more than nine times. Lindsay's mother Dinah.

has often been targeted by the tabloids, accused of mismanaging her daughter's career. And partying with Lindsay when she was underage. It does feel like a Drew Barrymore 2.0. For what it's worth, Lindsay denies that she was partying with her mom. But yeah, I mean this is like drama from a very early age where her family is just in and out of chaos. There's like voicemails that get leaked and phone calls of her parents fighting and her being like

Like in the middle of it, and at one point with Oprah she discusses like she calls her dad and accuses her mom of being on cocaine, but then she tells Oprah that she just made that up. It's like very messy. think like Oprah, even a few years ago, like tried to sort of help Lindsay by giving her a show. And Lindsay even in that scenario kind of like went off the rails. Yeah. So amidst all of that, she moves to Hollywood when she's eighteen.

And she sort of does like what you would expect a this brand new A-lister who's 18 to do when she is suddenly in this new city by herself. I'm scared. And of course, she starts hitting the clubs. And if you're in the clubs in the 2000s, like chances are you're gonna run into Paris Hilton. Oh, okay.

Over the course of the next couple of years, Paris and Lindsay become besties. They're seen everywhere together at all of these parties. My personal favorite, the party for the launch of the T-Mobile Sidekick 2. Which is like they were really throwing parties for anything back in the 2000s. Yeah. So really like both of these women, they come from very different backgrounds. Lindsay is born in the Bronx. Paris is very Beverly Hills.

But they're at this moment sort of together and because of their circumstances, they're both really kind of trapped in this high schooler mentality. And this is where we start getting into the mean girls of it all.

Because everything is about to blow up over perhaps the most mean girls thing ever, a boy. Ugh, that makes me so mad. So now we're gonna go back to 2006. This is the night before the infamous Fire Crotch video. Okay. Paris and Lindsay, you know, supposedly besties, they're at Hyde, which is this club in LA, very close

exclusive. I feel like it is either a den of depravity or just a bunch of the most socially inept people standing around just bobbing their heads to music, not able to talk to each other. Right. So Paris and Lindsay are there and Paris Hears this rumor. And the rumor is that Lindsay Lohan may have been hooking up, allegedly, with Paris's ex-boyfriend, Stavros Narcos. The most extra Parasilton boyfriend name ever. But he's like a Greek.

Shipping magnate air. So the rumor was that Lindsay and Stavros were seen making out at another LA club while Paris was out of the country. And he and Paris were like on a break. That is the rumor. Apparently it sets Paris off. Mm-hmm. And Paris and Lindsay get into an altercation outside of the club. An altercation? I feel like Lindsay can fight. And Paris went to that. Team camp, so

I think she fights dirty. Unfortunately, yeah. Like she did experience trauma, but at least she knows how to throw hands. Mm-hmm. So they get into this altercation, which I wish we had more details on, but we just don't. One way or another, it does die down. and they go their separate ways. But Sydney, these two are just getting started. Don't I know it? So now that we know all of that, let's revisit the fire crotch vid, because that's sort of what got us to that point. Oh goodness.

So it's the day after that alleged altercation took place outside of the club. Paris is back at Hyde because you know one night you fight with your friend outside of it. The next night you're back at it. She's staking her claim. Yeah. And she's with. Brandon Davis, her friend. Also, I guess if people don't know Brandon Davis, who's the one doing this trash talking, he is like an oil tycoon heir. And as they leave, the paparazzi swarm them, and Brandon starts going.

off on Lindsay. She's worth about seven million. Which means she's really poor. It's disgusting. She lives in a motel. By the way, the m quote motel that she lives in is the Chateau Marmont, which is like six hundred dollars a night. Yeah, they're diluted. Yeah, he says all types of crazy stuff. Their clitoris is seven feet long.

Jesus. Which is just like, oh my God, wild. We should also say that like, you know, to truly dissect the video here, Paris is laughing very audibly throughout the whole thing. But it's Unclear, like, what are Paris Hilton's intentions here? Like, did she stoke the fire of that rant?

Exactly. Or is she just like there while it's happening? It gave me the vibe of like you've been ranting to your friend all night while you've been getting drunk together, and then you leave and your friend is drunk and then feels like they need to like advocate for you. So everybody sees this video, the reaction is huge, and everybody is left wondering like, what does Paris really think about Lindsay? And what does Lindsay think about Paris?

Hello, I'm Matt Ford. And I'm Alice Levine. And we're the hosts of British Scandal. Now, Britain loves a royal scandal. Abdications, affairs. We've had the lot. But this series is about two brothers. Raised in palaces bound by tragedy, supposed So how did they end up barely speaking? Was it jealousy, the press, the firm? Or was this royal rift always inevitable? This is the story of Harry and Wills and the scandal that split the house of Follow British Scamble wherever you get your pocket.

or listen early and ad-free on Audible. So now it's a couple months after the Firecrotch video, and Lindsay is giving an interview to L Magazine. And she says, like, Brandon and Paris have been calling her and leaving her voicemails with basically like all of what they said on the video. Oh god. Like on multiple nights she's claiming that they have left voicemails. They're drunk dialing her? I guess.

Just like prank calling, which is also very 2000s. How old are these people? These are like grown people in at least their twenties. Oh my god. And then Lindsay drops the real bombshell of the interview, which is, but obviously she's very comfortable making videos. That's what Lindsay says about Paris, which is like I'm literally speechless. I'm not approving of what was done to Paris, but that is some like premium shade. Oh my God. Right.

Which is like someone wrote that line for her, I'm convinced. I literally was about to say, did someone re but then again, these are like some of the biggest mean girls for a reason. Right. Like that's very impressive. Yeah, so like the reporter loves it. Lindsay is ends up being the cover story of the September issue of L. Wow. Yeah, here's the cover. We used to have such fun with covers. She's wearing like

It looks like she skinned Oscar the Grouch and then put it on her arms. It's just great. Like wonderful. Love what I'm seeing. So now this vicious barb is out there and the entire world is watching to see what happens next.

And I am positive that it's not going to be good. Okay, so if you thought that one was the bombshell Things are gonna get even dicier. Cause the next time that we hear from Lindsay, she's leaving a party at the Roosevelt Hotel in Los Angeles. Yes. It's been now a couple of months since the September issue came out. Okay. Nobody is goading them on at this point. But Lindsay is leaving this party. And as she's getting into her car, she just like casually slips out with this line. Yeah.

It's very quick. It's like blink and you'll miss it. All of the paparazzi are like, wait, what did you say? What did you just say about Paris? And Lindsay sort of looks back at like whoever is in the car behind her in the back seat and they sort of give her a look that's sort of like What did you just say? Bullshit. And then she turns back to the paparazzi and she's like, What? I didn't say anything like Lindsay, why is Paris a c I never said that. This is one of my favorite clips.

on the internet. Yeah. It is iconic. I relate to it. So much. So yeah, we don't know obviously like what Lindsay is thinking in this moment why she does this. One of the reasons it could be is that Paris now is reportedly dating one of Lindsay's exes, a guy named Harry Morton. Oh. It could also be because Paris And Brandon Davis are still allegedly like privately laughing over the whole firecrotch thing. Ugh.

I'm upset that we even have to know about this guy. Like I'm upset that any of us had to learn who this man is. Yeah, not that I want to talk about this man more than I have to, but since you're upset, this would be a good time to mention that his nickname apparently was Greasy Bear. Matthew, I could have gone my whole life not knowing that, and I would have known Pete. If you like had to pick a side here, whose side are you on? Um I'm on Lindsay's side personally. I mean, after that video.

I don't know if I'm on like either side necessarily. They're both kind of have behavior that like concerns me and I don't really know who to root for necessarily, but I do think Lindsay is the more sympathetic side simply because she seems more like an underdog, but I do think they're both just clearly two hurt girls like going after each other and unfortunately letting horrible men be the reason that they are like at each other's throats.

Right. So Lindsay sort of insists that they're friends, whatever, whether we believe it or not, debatable. Two weeks after that, Lindsay comes out of another party and she goes up to the paparazzi on the street and she's holding her arm sort of out and she claims that Paris Hilton assaulted her at the party. Oh my god.

This snippet here to parish help in and I'm saying this on tape. She hit me last night for no reason, apparently at my friend's house and I didn't know she'd be there and she hit me. And it hurts, it's not okay. It's not cool. I'm sorry for everyone that's good, that's good. I'm sorry to hear that. I hate that the pop rats are like, we're so sorry, we're so sorry that happened. It's like their eyes are turning into dollar signs. How is she speaking?

So obviously, word gets back to Paris that Lindsay has said this, and the very next night, Paris' publicist is going to organize the PR stunt of the decade.

Okay, I hope you're ready because this is perhaps like one of the most iconic moments of the 2000s. Oh boy. We have to understand the guy behind it is Elliot Mint. He's Paris' publicist. And he used to be John Lennon and Yoko Ono spokesperson. Well, I'm just gonna say I don't know if he did a great job with that one. So like Just to describe what he looks like, he's this small, like little dandy in his 60s. He's got this bleach blonde hair and

He's also like part chauffeur. He drives around Paris and her friends a bunch. Oh. He also, I guess, is known for sipping Chardonnay, and so Paris calls him shardy. Horrible nickname. It is just very confusing to me how this man became Paris Hilton's publicist. I think it's so funny. Okay, so on this particular night that we're talking about, Paris and Britney are out partying together. Lindsay is at the same party, and when they leave.

Paris and Britney are getting into their car. You know, there's all of this paparazzi videos of this happening and The cameras sort of pan over, and our friend Elliot is guiding Lindsay Lohan to the car and The paparazzi are like yelling at Paris, like, how do you respond to like the rumors that Lindsay says you hit her? Oscar, she's right. Take it, take it. Lindsay! And if tell them the truth. Paris never told me she's my friend. Everyone lies whatever.

And what's so funny is that she's acting like she is not the one who started the rumor. Things it's like, Lindsay, you did this. And Elliot ushers Lindsay up to the car and puts her like into the passenger seat with Paris at the driver's seat and Britney sort of squished in the middle. Mm-hmm. And the paparazzi Take these photos and they become iconic. Yes. The next day the New York Post runs the photo on the cover with the headline Bimbo Summit. And it is

Oh my God. One of the most infamous images of the two thousands. Yes, I think infamous is the right word because I don't think it actually caused anyone to think the feud was over. And the way it looks to me, like Lindsay is so amused by all of it, and so is Paris. Like they're laughing at it and Britney just looks So confused.

Brittany is sort of the lost puppy in the middle of this. Yes. They drive away, they're all in the same car, and at the moment it seems like to the world, like, okay, this is over. Maybe they really were friends this whole time, and maybe All of this was just blown out of proportion.

Okay, so after the iconic Bimbo summit, the feud sort of dies down for a while, really. It kind of seems like Elliot did his job, everybody is getting along, people have moved on. Mostly I would say because both Paris and Lindsay are sort of going through it on an individual level. This is all happening around the time that Paris gets arrested for DUI. Yeah, once again, she sort of becomes The target for a bunch of late night hosts.

Here is Conan O'Brien with a zinger. Ready for all the Paris Hilton DUI jokes in one minute. I gotta tell ya, I heard when the cops gave Paris the breathalyzer test, they told her to blow and she started sucking. I heard she got rammed from behind. That's right. And then she got in her car. Yeah, I'm still weirded out about how so much of the jokes made about her just revolve around graphic sexual things.

Yeah. I mean, it's like when that sex tape came out, her fear was that that would brand her for the rest of her life. And Here are people like at another low moment for her, making it all about that again. Yeah. She was right. Yeah. So not going great for Paris. After that DUI, she pleads guilty to reckless driving. She gets sentenced to probation.

Then she gets caught driving on a suspended license and the judge gives her a 45 day sentence for that. She only serves half of that time before they release her early on good behavior, but you know, she does actually spend time behind bars. I have a feeling that she was like Jen Shaw and just running that place like the navy.

I hope so. Meanwhile, around this time, Lindsay goes to rehab for the first time, and a handful of months after that, she's arrested on misdemeanor drunken driving charges. So it's just like so much stuff is happening to Lindsay and Paris at the same time. Isn't it so weird how rich people get DUIs when they can just Have drivers And they can call cars. It must be like

a power thing or they need to feel in control. I don't get it. Yeah, they're both spiraling. Yeah. There's also this pop sugar clip. They interviewed a bunch of people on the street and just got Oh wow. I bet this went Super well. She used to be so pretty. I don't understand, but I mean sad that she's become uncute and kind of disturbing. Bloshed out and strung out and druggied out. It's not cute. Should be an re helped the girl needs some help. She's a lost cause now.

They focus so much on her physical appearance. Mm-hmm. Not that we are by any means free from this type of like misogyny and body judgment today. But like I just in my head it's like very much tied up with reality TV and the way that people saw these figures as like not real people but as characters that they could judge and not treat as humans. So yeah, for Lindsay, it doesn't get like a whole lot better after that.

Over the next five years, she's in and out of rehab. She goes to five separate rehab facilities for a total of 250 days. Oh wow. I know. And then in 2011, Lindsay shoplifts a$2,500 necklace and gets caught. And she's charged with felony gram theft, so not great.

No, and there are like blind items that allude to the fact that kleptomania was just how Lindsay was coping. Oh wow, yeah. And to add to the misery, Paris decides that. that she is going to reignite things a little bit, I guess. So she's filming an episode of her new show, The World According to Paris. And during this shoot, she's doing some community service. And she says it's not court ordered, that she's just doing it because she loves to give back.

Sure girl. Sure. So she's at this food bank and she gives a pair of earrings to this unhoused woman. And the unhoused woman mistakes Paris for Lindsay Lohan. No. And the woman is like, aren't you supposed to be in rehab? Wow. It's not even like thank you, Lindsay. It's like, aren't you supposed to be in rehab? Wow.

Paris sort of laughs it off and then corrects her and is like, No, I'm not Lindsay. But then in this cutaway interview, Paris gives this one-liner that ends up, you know, starting some shit. Which is like She got her back for that. Iconic Lindsay quote earlier on, tip for tat. Yeah. Quite a choice that this was not like an off the cuff remark, but that like they recorded this during an interview later and added it in. Yeah, that one is clearly written. That was a pointed, calculated remark. Yes.

I really think they've both met their match. To be fair, Paris ends up issuing an apology. She said, I was joking around, but it was thoughtless and unnecessary. And she's like, I I want to keep my relationship with Lindsay positive. She says that she reached out directly to Lindsay and apologized to her, but it's like, yeah, is this over? Are they really past it? Or is this like now things are just going again? Ultimately, the feud dies down. They sort of keep to themselves.

Until Paris is a guest on Andy Cohen's. radio show, what you don't know about. Hm. Andy Cohen. We need to do a whole episode on Andy Cohen. Oh feud stir. Professional instigator. He knows exactly what he's doing. Paris is a guest on this show and Andy wants to talk about the night of the bimbo summit photo. What happened that night?

Also, keep in mind, at this point, Paris is 37 years old. Nice. Lindsay is 32 years old. All of this happened 12 years ago. I can't believe she was fighting with a girl five years younger than her. For that long. But again, they're like trapped in their teenage selves. You're pretty much trapped mentally at the age at which you get really famous. And both of them really were famous as like

Children. So Paris decides that she's gonna take the bait and answer Andy. We can just listen to the clip. Okay. Brittany and I wanted to leave to go home. Right. And then she started like Chasing us. Lindsay did. Yes. And then squeezed in the car. It was literally a a two-seater SLR, you know, that sports car. So it was she just like Squeezed in.

And I didn't want to humiliate her in front of all the paparazzi and be like, get out of my car. So Yeah, it's like we all saw the video. Like we know your PR guy shoved her into the car. Like Right. No, come on now, girl. Andy Cohen like asked Were you friends with Lindsay? And she was like, Yeah, we were friends. He tries to play it off like he had no idea that they were ever friends and like Andy To be honest, I didn't either. Like I did not know that they had a genuine

friendship that soured. And now it makes so much more sense why their fighting was so messy and like cryptic and back and forth because they were two friends publicly breaking up in front of Everyone. Right. A month after that, Lindsay goes on Andy's show. Messy. And she denies. What Paris says. Of course. I'm not here to talk about Paris. Maybe she doesn't remember it. End of story. Right. Zing. Yeah, she does the opposite of what Paris does and does not take

like Andy's little bait and she's like, nah, we're moving on. I'm not here to talk about her. Because Lindsay can handle a host that goes off track. Have you seen her talk with David Letterman? Where he like opens a conversation by being like, How many times have you been to rehab? And she goes, Several. But he keeps going and she's like, We didn't discuss this in the pre-interview, like literally handles him. as a young woman, like he's left almost speechless. So Andy

Might have met his match with that one. She ends up saying, like, she's not bothered by Paris, like, whatever, she'll pray for her. And then finally, Paris, a couple of years later, she seems to like put things to bed. She goes on her own podcast, This is Paris, which is now branded I Am Paris. Nice. And She says, like, I saw that Lindsay got engaged. I genuinely wish her well, that kind of thing. But also interestingly,

She goes on in that same episode to address the media of the early 2000s. And it's sort of like a perfect ending to all of this. Yeah, looking back on it, I can see just. Most of these problems were just caused by the media. In the 2000s, like that's what it was all about. They loved pitting women against each other. That was like their thing. Every single tabloid cover, all of them would always have like so and so hates this person feud. Like, yeah.

causing more drama than there even was. Yeah, and then I don't know if she goes on to talk about this, but that's like a vicious cycle. If you know you get attention from doing these kinds of things, then that's what you're going to keep talking about. Right. And you're gonna keep feeding into it. Yeah. Now in 2023, Paris Hilton has definitely done a much better job at like

Almost rehabilitating her image. She is no longer the mean girl of the 2000s. One of the most successful rebrands I've ever seen. She did it by being like, Look, I was. This person in the 2000s like basically created a mask as a result of childhood trauma and that mask became famous. And now she's coming forward and being like, That is not me. Yeah. And now like Lindsay has still sort of been going through it a little bit, but like now she is this

Sort of having her renaissance. Hmm. You know, she's been in that Christmas movie, Falling for Christmas. Yeah. Like I think Lindsay has seen more than we will ever know. We'll probably never know the extent. to which she was like used and abused by the Hollywood system. Right. But I am happy that She's having a comeback of sorts, and I wish the best for her as well. Like think both of these women deserve a chance to live somewhat normal lives, whatever that looks like to them.

But yeah, I mean, I do think we can't overstate how like one of the real villains of the story is TMZ and the early internet and how much of a like vicious machine that was they are built on like the blood, sweat, and pain of young celebrities in Hollywood. Like that is how they became the giant empires that they are now. And ooh, it's a little heavy.

Do you think that internet culture and I guess media as a whole in relation to celebrity is better now or worse? I'd like to think that it's better that like we're a little more forgiving of celebrities, we're a little less. vicious about them. Mm-hmm. I don't know. Truthfully Probably not. Like deep down, it's not any better. We've just gotten better at like disguising it and talking in like therapy speak about how celebrities are like. Oh my God, yes.

You know, we need to be kind and think of them as humans and then we just don't. Right. I think celebrity culture back then, we got to see a lot more of the skeisiness of it. And nowadays it is a little cleaner. I will say though Para says this, the whole kind of climactic moment of her documentary is her coming out about her experience at Provo, the school for troubled teens that she was abused at.

And part of the reason that she says she was so like fearful of coming out about her experience is that it would like ruin her brand. Wow. And like people would look at her differently because of that. And I do think that is a relic of the two thousands in that kind of celebrity. And like I do think celebrities now are much more open about their like struggles.

Because they know it makes them more relatable in a sense. And I do think it's like flipped a little bit because I know a lot of people nowadays like normal people, not famous people, who feel such a a need to like curate their aesthetic online, to curate even like a brand of themselves. And I'm like, that's bizarre to me.

Whereas like celebrities are in this place where they're trying to humanize themselves and make them relatable. Like normal people now are like, no, I wanna be unrelatable. Like I wanna look really cool. Like I wanna look like I stand out. And so the roles have sort of like Switch. Yeah, and I mean the irony is that like Paris was the one who created that archetype in the first place.

Mm-hmm. I mean, one of the interesting things is that like what used to be TMZ like kind of invading the privacy of celebrities and like taking away a lot of their Yes. Is now just replaced by social media. Mm-hmm. And like they're just doing it themselves. Yes. And because we all have phones now, it's not just TMZ. And I also think because of things like TMZ, people are just so much more comfortable being the people invading celebrities' privacy. Yeah. Like

Let me take a picture of this guy dropping his daughter off at school. God, it really warped all of our brains. Yeah. Not just Celebrities back then, but Normal people too. Why do you think this feud in particular has such staying power? Like why were we obsessed with it back then and still obsessed with it now? I do think, like, again, not to uh put too heavy of a a point on the mean girls metaphor, but it is

It's the same reason we loved Mean Girls as a movie. It's like this is so true to life. It is like high school on a celebrity national level. And That is part of the reason why it felt so entertaining at the time or was so entertaining at the time was because it was like High school gossip. Yeah, that you have no stakes in. Right. And I think it's fitting we should leave with these final remarks. From Paris.

I'm an adult now. I just realized that a lot of that was just being immature. And yes, there has been people that have hurt me and I feel like now that I'm married and I'm grown up, I'm starting this next phase of my life, I just I don't wanna have any any of that negative energy. And if Lindsay had a podcast, I think it's probably safe to say she'd echo that sentiment from Paris. Hopefully from now on, the mean girl days are behind both of them. I mean, we can hope.

This is Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan. The show is hosted by me, Matt Belisai. And me, Sidney Battle. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were BuzzFeed's The Down and Dirty History of TMZ by Ann Helen Peterson, Vanity Fair's Confessions of a Teenage Movie Queen by Evgenia Peretz.

And Paris Hilton's memoir, Paris the Memoir. Alex Burns wrote this episode. Our lead producer is Kate Downey, Yasmin Ward is our producer, and Jake Davorski is our associate producer. Our story editors are Alex. Alex Burns and Greg Castro. Sound design is by Kelly Krimeric. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frees on Sync. Our senior managing producer is Ryan Lohr. Our coordinating producers are Chinwe Bodo and Sophia Martin.

Our executive producers are Janine Cornelo, Stephanie Jens, and Marshall Lewey for Wondery.