Kim and Kourtney Kardashian | 23

A listener note, this episode contains strong language.

Matt, I know this is a big question, but I have to ask it. What are some of your favorite reality TV fights? Reality TV fights. Like Physical altercations. I'm in the middle of a Real Housewives of Atlanta rewatch right now and I forgot how physical they get. I mean, they're like pressing charges at the reunion because My favorite fight. is New York versus pumpkin on Flavor of Love, when Pumpkin disgustingly spits on New York and then New York pushes her right into a camera. Yes.

That is one of the greatest loogies that television has ever seen. Ugh, and one of the best literal clapbacks. Mm-hmm. Well, that brings us to the start of our story. And I'm going to tell it like you're a small child. Once upon a time, on a network called E, a group of sisters sat together in a room You might know them. Kim, Courtney, Chloe, and Kendall, all of Kardashian Jenner fame.

It's season eighteen of Keeping Up with the Kardashians, and they're all just hanging out in Chloe's house. Kendall is lying on the bed, Kim sitting on the floor, and Chloe and Courtney are off on like the side of the room in another oversized chair. Okay. Kim is venting to Kendall about their other sister, Kylie, who's not there.

So the reason that Kim is so annoyed is because Kylie has strep throat and thus bailed on a work obligation. And Kim's like, the problem is if I were on my deathbed, I would still show up. As a kid who used to have strep a lot, that is discrimination. Okay. You can't help it. Once you get it, it's like it just comes back. And it's highly contagious too, so it's also very understandable that she's staying at home.

Yeah, she's being responsible. Yes, and worth mentioning that that case of strep throat sends Kylie to the hospital. Oh, right. Later on. So yeah, it's severe. But Kim's like, look, I would be there regardless. So would Chloe. That's just how we operate. Whereas Kylie, Kendall, and Courtney, Kim basically says that they all have terrible work ethics. And what is this work obligation anyway? It's a Baumont fashion show in Paris.

Kylie's supposed to be the creative director doing all the makeup for the models with her Kylie cosmetics line. And she's supposed to walk the runway herself too. Okay. I mean that seems like a fair amount of stuff, but like She's sick, so you cancel. Yeah. It happens. Courtney hears this comment about not having a work ethic, and she's like. Say that again. And Kim happily does. And then all hell breaks loose.

Courtney goes, I will literally F you up if you mention it again. Courtney's fed up with this narrative that Kim's been pushing that she's the only member of the family who works. Like that very memorable video of Kim being like, get off your asses and work. Yeah. It seems like nobody wants to work anymore. Yeah, it's at least comforting to know that she like

takes that home with her too. Right. That's just something she's saying to everyone. Exactly. At least her family also has to put up with it. Yeah. So Courtney is so fed up at this that she chucks a water bottle at Kim. Kim, in response, leaps to her feet and pushes Courtney. You shouldn't stop. Ever! Take your nails in me! Runny! Curney! You guys! This was like

uh act of war. Yes, she full on slapped her with her hands and then did not expect Courtney to come back fighting. And Courtney's not just slapping, she is dragging her nails, she's kicking. She is full body fighting, and it's just so clear that Kim is unprepared for that. That was intense. And you know, a lot of siblings fight, but fist fighting as grown adults on national TV.

Is a whole nother level. And this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Kardashian sisters feud. I cannot wait to see the rest of this iceberg. Have you guys heard about this polar bear? He did the Pepsi challenge and chose Pepsi Zero Sugar. Isn't that right, Mr. Bear? Interesting. So in other words, you now know how much taste matters. Incredible. Do you have any techniques we could share with listeners to help them also accept who they really are?

Interesting. So meditation, I think, or he's hungry. It's hard to read polar bears. Let's give it a go. Go out and try Pepsi Zero Sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi. This podcast is supported by MIDI Health. Feeling dismissed by the old healthcare system? You're not alone. Seventy-five percent of women seeking care for menopause and peramenopause issues are left entirely untreated. It's time for a change. It's time for MIDI.

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We are back with another Kardashian feud and honestly I'm surprised it took us this long. This is our first Kardashian on Kardashian crime. Correct. And the Kardashians are so pervasive in our culture. We're at a point where you really can't go anywhere without hearing some reference to them or to their brands or their drama. And you're right, usually they're this tight-knit unit that feuds with outsiders. But today, we're taking a look at some inner circle family fighting.

specifically between Kim and Courtney, the two oldest of the Kardashian clan. Oldest, but not necessarily the most mature. Kim and Courtney have had this sisterly tension for years, but lately it's gotten even worse. Their feuding begs the question: is it sustainable to mix? Business and family, especially when you're under the intense scrutiny and exposure of reality TV. Mmm. This is Kim and Courtney Kardashian. Yeah, I mean I don't watch the Kardashians, but they are just so

Pop culture that I just feel like I know everything through osmosis. Right. But I'm excited. If you have sisters, you know that at any given time you might be feuding with them about something, anything, who knows. But it's a little different for Kim and Courtney Kardashian.

A ton of their slides have been captured by cameras for the last 15 plus years. Keeping up with the Kardashians first premiered in 2007, and since then, these two have certainly had their moments. There's that time and season. Which truly shocking to hear that this was season 12 when this happened. But there's a moment where Kim loses her$75,000 diamond earring in the ocean. And Kim starts ugly crying.

And yelling out, and most of the other family members are like, oh, Kim, oh no. I think even Kylie starts like diving down as if she's gonna find this diamond earring at the bottom of the ocean. And meanwhile, Courtney. Comes out, she's holding her baby, and she just hits Kim with the iconic line: Kim, there's people that are dying. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Something about Kim Kardashian and jewelry is cursed.

She loses her jewelry in the most traumatic ways. Yeah. One, the ocean, two robbery by gunpoint. That moment with the earring becomes a major meme that still exists to this day. And an obvious example of Courtney kind of being the only one not to put up with Kim's shit. Like she's maybe the one most willing to call her out on it. Interesting. I never knew how well that kind of captured their dynamic.

Also, who goes into the ocean with seventy-five thousand dollar earrings anyway? Sorry. Here's the thing. Her husband at the time threw her into the ocean. Oh, right. He was like trying to be cute or something, threw her into the ocean, and immediately it's just bad. That was like her husband of 70 days or whatever. 72 days, Chris Humphreys. Right, that's what I thought. Things continue to escalate over the years.

For example, the Christmas card drama from season fifty. It all starts because Kim wants to organize a family photo shoot for the annual Christmas card. Kim has a work meeting that conflicts with this photo shoot that she scheduled, and she needs everyone else to adjust so that she can make it work. And Courtney refuses. She's like, look, I'm not changing my schedule to suit you. And Kim goes off on her.

That you were passionate about, then you would know what it takes to run a business, but you don't. So don't even act like you know what I'm talking about. So it doesn't stop there. In her rage, Kim turns to her sister Chloe and her mom Chris, and she tells them that Courtney is the least exciting to look at, so she can be out. She doesn't do shit. She doesn't know what it's like to actually have work to do.

Wow, that is a cutting insult. Yeah, the least interesting to look at. That felt like a little below the belt. Yes, and I also find it interesting because I think of all the sisters. Courtney's had the most minimal work done to her face. She's admitted to a contouring lift procedure, but she says that that's the extent of it. But still, you look at pictures of Courtney from when she was like twenty years old, nineteen years old.

And she pretty much looks the same. Like she's obviously had treatments or whatever, but she looks like Courtney. Right. But also I don't know that much about what Courtney does. for a job. Yeah. I know Kim is the businesswoman, but so is Kylie and Kendall and like, I don't know.

Courtney just was married to Scott Dissick. That's all I know. She never married him, but Courtney for a brief time had a boutique with Chloe and Kim. But she's always sort of been the quieter one, like she had kids first. She has always focused more, I think, on being like a mom than always working and never stopping. So Kim's comments not entirely founded. Yeah, and it's not like she hasn't had businesses in the past. They might not have worked out, but like She's done stuff.

And Kim's comment really gets to the deeper tension that seems to be bubbling to the surface between the two sisters. On one side, we have Kim, by all accounts, a workaholic who has embraced the keeping up with the Kardashian show and Capitalized on it in every way. And on the other side, we have Courtney, who, by her own admission, doesn't like being a celebrity. She's becoming increasingly uncomfortable with how invasive the show is on her life. So

So when Kim says that Courtney can be out because she's the least exciting to look at, she's not just talking about the Christmas card. She's talking about everything, kind of. After that blow-up, Chloe calls Courtney to check on her, with the cameras watching, of course. Courtney's crying and Chloe tries to defend Kim, saying that she just called Courtney the least interesting to look at because she was mad. Yeah. But Courtney was not having it.

She tells Chloe, You guys just have really different values than me. I choose to be a mother to my three kids. I'm not here looking for another job.

I already work enough, more than I would like to. That's when Kim walks into the room and hears this call. Which Chloe has on speakerphone, and Kim tries to jump into the conversation, but Chloe puts the phone on mute. Thank God. Courtney keeps talking, unaware of what's going on, while Kim tries to get the phone from Chloe and Chris Jenner is in the background telling Kim, Don't be mean. But does Kim listen?

No, of course not. She gets the phone from Chloe and goes off on Courtney. You would honestly think. We have more jobs. So work around our schedule. accommodating to the Do shit. Barry? You're unevil human beings. I don't want to see you, okay? I don't agree with who you are as a human being. Oh my god. Wow. In case you couldn't make that out, Courtney said, You're a very distraught, evil human being. I don't wanna see you, okay? I don't agree with who you are as a human being.

That would cut me. That would really cut me to the core. Yeah, that's just a whole reed reduced down to its essence. Yeah. After this call, tensions are obviously Hi. Kim actually ends up apologizing, but Courtney's not over it. She's so mad that she skips Kim's baby shower for her daughter Chicago. And this won't be the only big family event that she skips out on in the future. Uh oh.

All of the women on the show trade plenty of jabs at each other throughout every season. And they even have the occasional blow-ups. So this fight was rare because it was physical, but them having disagreements is not. Mm-hmm. soon. A more serious source of tension starts to boil to the surface. Basically, Courtney is spending less and less time filming, keeping up with the Kardashians. Instead, she's been seeing a therapist who apparently has helped her reevaluate. Yeah.

You start seeing a therapist and then you don't feel the need to be validated by a camera anymore. Yeah, really sucks for your career. As a result, she's putting up boundaries about when, where, and how she'll be on camera. And Kim has a problem with this. And so does Chloe. Oh no, boundaries. Yeah, so toxic. They think it's unfair that they're asked to share every detail of their lives, but Courtney gets to put up boundaries and step away.

Especially cause she's still benefiting from the success of the show. I mean my initial reaction is like they're being asked to expose every detail of their lives. Who's asking them? That was literally my reaction. I said, who? Who's asking? Like you made this show. Yeah. Just

Let her be. You're all benefiting, whatever. But like you asked for this. You're mad because she figured out a healthy approach to what you do. Mm-hmm. And you can't give up this Toxic dynamic that you've locked yourself into. Right. Kim and Chloe maintain that they want Courtney to show up and participate. Okay. This all comes to a head during one of the last episodes of season seventeen, where Kim and Chloe get so fed up with Courtney being secretive about what she's doing.

that they follow her secretly with a camera crew to see what she's doing. Like they literally like sneak around town following her. So Courtney is like, I don't really want to be on the show as much. And then they surveil her. Exactly. Their theory is that she's secretly dating someone, but it turns out she's taking a business meeting. And Courtney catches them in the backyard of her business associate's house. And understandably, she's pissed.

Can you imagine being in a meeting, you're like entertaining an investor or something and you look outside and your sisters are hiding behind a bush. With a camera crew. Yeah, so this is Courtney's reaction to that. So crazy. If they wanted privacy, I would never follow them or like expose them. We're all different. And this is the kind of stuff that makes me feel that they put the shut. That just makes me think, like, what kind of satanic contract did this family sign with E that they

Or like even when they're trying to run away, they're like, no, we can still follow you with your sisters and capture a business meeting. Yeah, you can't get away. Courtney feels bullied by Kim and Chloe. She wants to live her own life the way that she sees fit. And they apparently have a problem with that. Let her be. Let her live.

This tension continues to grow throughout the end of season seventeen and into season eighteen. And that's when the slap fight that we listened to at the beginning of the episode occurs. It's never about one thing. There's always a deeper reason. But it has major repercussions, unsurprisingly. Mm-hmm. At the start of the third episode of the season Tim and Chloe address the camera. They tell the audience that Courtney's taking a step back from filming. Mm-hmm. Here's that clip.

I really support Courtney taking the step back. I think if she needs that, then that's exactly what she should get. We obviously didn't resolve everything and we really haven't heard from her. So we're just kind of She won't, and I'm all for it. I'm all for doing whatever makes your soul happy. What she said. There's so much in that. But okay, even if it's for show, they have like acquiesced. Right. And seemingly it's gonna take something huge to get Courtney to come back.

Something like, I don't know, maybe a brand new show on Hulu? This is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax. Tax deadline looming and you're stuck in the dark? We've all been there. Sending documents to a tax pro, then playing the waiting game, constantly checking for updates that seem to never come soon enough. TurboTax changes that. Match with a TurboTax Full Service expert and get unlimited support on your taxes at no extra cost.

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Okay, so fast forward a few years. It's 2022. We are now in Portofino, Italy, at Courtney's wedding. She's marrying Blink 182 drummer Travis Barker. And guess what? The cameras are back. Well, yeah, we can't have a Kardashian wedding without a film crew. No, no, no. But this time, they're filming for the family's new Hulu show, The Kardashians. Mm-hmm. And I think Courtney probably feels better about filming now because the Kardashian family has more control over this show.

than they did with keeping up with the Kardashians. I see. The satanic contract was Up and they went to Hulu and said, We're gonna run this show. Yeah, give us more creative control. Mm-hmm. The wedding itself is wildly over the top. in classic Kardashian fashion. It's a multi-day affair with all the parties you imagine from, you know, the weddings we might have seen over the years. Ugh. A wedding should be two days top. Unless it's like a traditional Hindu ceremony or it's an Islamic wedding.

Then it's okay. You know, multiple days, I get it, it's cultural. But this is like cultural in the pop culture sense. Right. Yeah, the method in which they're dragging it out, because that is just what the Kardashians do. Yeah. But the highlight of this event and the thing that our feud is about to center around is the fashion. Fashion can be very polarizing. To say the least.

Every outfit that Courtney and her family wears at the wedding is Dolce and Gabbana. Ugh. You don't like Dolce and Gabbana? Dolce and Gabbana has been called out by gay rights groups. for some stuff. Whoa. So I'm not a huge fan. But you know, they're Italian. You're in Italy. Okay, but if we wanna have fun with Italians who love gays, then why don't we go to Versace?

Yeah, you can trot Donatella out from her crypt and she'll dress your wedding. Courtney sought out Dolce and Gabbana to create the aesthetic of her wedding. And even more specifically, she had them open up their nineties archives just for her. Oh wow. Yeah, so an honor. We've got a few pictures of Courtney's various looks.

And I'd love for you to describe them. And if you feel compelled, tell me your favorite. Okay, so one of them is what appears to be her wedding dress, which is both a very like low cut on the top and high cut on the bottom. And she's showing a lot up top and a lot on the bottom. It does look like something you would wear to bed and not to your wedding. There's also this like little black dress number that it's got this kind of

Print on it that is the Virgin Mary? Yeah, I think it is a giant bedazzling of the Virgin Mary. And then another one is this dark red number, and she has A stole around her shoulders. It's all very Courtney aesthetically, and that is the point. You know, she wants her wedding to be different from anything her sisters would plan. Right. For example, it's It's not Kim's Wedding to Kanye where Kim had this long white couture givenchy gown and a million pastel flowers.

Or the oft forgotten Vera Wang gown she wore at the doomed wedding to Chris Humphreys. Mm-hmm. This is Courtney's own thing. But I will say she kinda seems to be doing this thing where you take on the traits of the person that you're dating or in love with. Because whenever she steps out now, she kind of looks like She rated a hot topic.

Like ever since she started dating Travis, she's really digging into that punk side. Right. Which makes sense. I mean, every picture of her looks like she's walking around with Jack Skellington, so it she's gotta do something. It's it's true. I like Travis. I think he'd be flattered by that actually. Yeah. Courtney's wedding goes well. Mm-hmm. She and Travis even get a special wedding episode of the Kardashians.

And for once, there seems to be no drama. It's just like a fluff piece about their love. It sounds too simple. Yeah, but it also seems like maybe, just maybe, Courtney has managed to carve out her own sense of place in her family. Good for her.

But then, about a few months after the festivities, Courtney gets a call. It's Kim, and she has got this amazing opportunity. Dolce and Gabbana The designers that just did Courtney's wedding have asked Kim to be the creative director of their next fashion show. And she's gonna do it. Dolce and Gabbana are shady to go from one Kardashian bed to another because why did they call up Kim and not Courtney? Yeah, it is a little weird to me that they didn't ask.

Courtney to do that. But let's be clear here. Kim is not asking Courtney's permission. She's just informing her. Yeah. She's just bragging. A courtesy call, if anything. Also just like, just to let you know. Mm-hmm. Courtney is stunned and hurt. This was her wedding. It was supposed to be special to her. And then not even four months later.

her sister is going to go off and work with that same designer? Which like to be fair, this is not like boutique designers that Courtney discovered. I had that thought, yes. This is one of the major fashion houses of the world. Yeah, and also I actually think four months is like a long amount of time. Yeah. You've had your wedding. You've milked it for a week. Let her have this.

I came back around it took me fifteen seconds, but I came around circles. It only gets worse from there. Courtney learns that Kim's not just creative directing Dolce Gabbana's latest fashions. No. She is pulling looks from the Dolce and Gabbana archives for the show, just like Courtney did for her wedding. Okay, so she's not allowed to go into the closet?

I am obligated to tell you every part of the spew whether or not I agree with what's involved in it. Yes. Is the idea that like, okay, it's kind of this rare thing for Dolce and Gabbana to kind of go back into the archives. Courtney just had the honor of doing this and now Kim is going in not that long after. I think that's it. It felt like something that was bestowed upon Courtney.

And now four months later she hears that actually your little sister is gonna be able to do it too. Right. I mean, that does suck. It's a lot like when a man tells you, Oh, I don't do this with anyone else. Yes. Yes. I think this really starts to reveal one of the biggest takeaways from this feud, which is that it's just a classic big sister, little sister dynamic. Where you've raised the stakes an insane amount, or not even the stakes, but like the level of stuff that they're arguing about.

Because in reality, neither of them loses very much by having this fight or by arguing over Dolce and Gabbana, but it is so classic big sister to be like, You're copying me. Mm-hmm. Courtney. Seriously. Can't believe this, Matt. It wasn't enough for Kim to just work with the designers.

Now she's copying Courtney's style too, and pretending like it's her own. That is one of those things where like When you're just a little ticked off at someone and then they do something like that, on its face it might not be that big of a deal, but like when you're already simmering, this is all it takes to just send you over the edge.

I think you nailed it. Courtney is incredibly offended that Kim's partnering with Dolce Ngabbana. Like she just cannot let it go. She talks to everyone except Kim about it. Classic. Yeah. Good. And as season three of the Kardashians starts rolling out, we get this amazing quote.

This is Courtney talking to her sister Kendall. This isn't really even about business for me. It's just like this like was my wedding and actually like how I've lived my life every summer for like you know, five years in a row, like living with Dolce Vina, like genuinely. She couldn't even finish it with like a straight face. No, you can't copyright the Dolce Vida. La Dolce Vida. Yeah, this is a very broad thing that she is accusing him of stealing. Yes.

And I don't know if you can claim a whole lifestyle as yours after just like five summer holidays, but sure. Yeah. Also, once again. This is not some like not well trod country or culture. Like this is Italy. It's Italy. Okay. Literally everybody has been. Courtney is not done. She keeps harping on this point for several episodes worth of footage. I'm just gonna give you the bullet points, okay? Mm-hmm. She says that Kim never asked her if she was okay with the partnership.

She says in fact, according to Courtney, Kim never said anything about it until the deal was finalized. Mm-hmm. That's giving very Joan Rivers Johnny Carson. Yes. Yeah, I'm a little bit like, okay, if you know the person's gonna be mad, then yeah, you wait till the ink is dry. And three, in Courtney's mind, she did this because Kim knew she wouldn't be happy about it and she didn't want to have to confront that possibility, which, like, yeah.

Yeah, that's why you don't tell someone about it. Yeah, would it have been a nice sisterly thing to call her beforehand and get permission? Yes. Would she have given permission? No. And that's why Kim didn't do it. Like ultimately Courtney feels like Kim used her wedding as a business opportunity, and that's what she's so livid about. She's still venting to Kendall when she says this. If I did it to him, she would freak out. But to me it was more personal. I think that's why it liked

Hurts my feelings. It was my actual wedding. The year your sister got married, you then made a deal to do this fashion show. Don't do it the same year that comes out four months later. She's got a point. It is a little close to be doing something so similar. Yeah. I get it. And like Kim obviously is the biggest name in that family.

So I can understand maybe if Courtney finally felt like she had something for herself and then just a little while later her sister's like, Well actually I'm doing something bigger with them. Right. The flip side is who cares? Yeah. Okay, Matt. So Courtney's telling the world that Kim essentially stole her wedding vibe for a business opportunity. Kim, of course, has to respond to this. Kim disagrees with Courtney's version of events.

Not to her face, of course, but to the cameras. They're probably not actually talking to each other about any of this drama at this point. They're just using the show to fight against each other and to try to control the narrative. So Kim swears she didn't discuss the deal with the designers at any point during the wedding. Dolce and Gabbana were just so Taken with her vintage DG looks at the wedding, that they approached her afterwards. Well, where did she get those looks?

They weren't involved in dressing her. I think they dress the whole family, but Kim is very much so trying to make it into like. Jennifer Lawrence getting discovered in a Kentucky mall, you know? Like that's what Kim's claiming. Like They were just so taken when they saw me in their clothes. Right. Kim tells the cameras that she had a lengthy email chain with the designers.

She begged them to push the fashion show to a later date so it wasn't so close to Courtney's wedding, but apparently they wouldn't budge. They were going to do the collection with or without Kim. But they really wanted her to do it, and so did she. So she said yes and She couldn't possibly turn down such a cool business opportunity. Okay. If she's telling the truth, then she made an effort to push it back.

Yes. And you know, we'll never know how determined that effort might have been, but Kim says that she did attempt to get them to be more mindful of the fact that Courtney just had her wedding. Right. But Kim swears that she was extra mindful not to copy any of the designs or styles that Courtney wore to her wedding. Out of respect to Courtney, of course.

Right. That's not how Courtney sees things though. To her, Kim deliberately ripped off the aesthetic of her wedding entirely, and she's not gonna let it go. I mean the Dolce Vita is All-encompassing. So if you're gonna rip off one part of it, you're ripping off all of it. Xfinity Tech support? How can I help? I can't get Jurassic Park. Oh, you just need Xfinity. Plug in your gateway and you're good. All set. Luckily Xfinity has reliable, self-healing Wi-Fi that keeps you safe from threats.

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So now Kim's in Milan for the Dolce and Gabbana fashion show that has caused all this fuss, and the rest of the Kardashians seem to be in full support of this move. Chloe, Chris, and Kim's daughter North are all in Milan to cheer Kim on. And even Kendall and Kylie are happy to post about the show on social media. It seems like the whole family is a united front behind Kim. Except of course for Courtney. She is

Still pissed and still badmouthing Kim. Word of that gets back to Kim all the way in Milan? It's not like she just heard a rumor. It's literally Chloe bringing it up in the middle of dinner the night before the big show. She's like, Did you see court stuff? And then proceeds to tell Kim that Courtney's mad at Kim, their mom, and basically everyone for not being loyal. to Dolchangabana, and then right at the end,

She can't help herself and she adds And to Courtney. The whole table does like an awkward double take and then Kim adds to the diva of all divas. Uh okay. So She is not letting Courtney just Yeah. In the corner. After a lot of convincing by their family members, mainly Chloe, Kim and Courtney finally come together and hash out their issues in front of the cameras.

Of course. Kim and Courtney both come in with their own versions of the truth and it's more like they're talking at each other than actually listening. They're just doing confessionals at each other. That seems symptomatic of sisters, but especially symptomatic of the Kardashians. Yes. Courtney tells her sister how much it hurt to have Kim copy her wedding because it kind of made it seem less one of a kind to her. Right.

Kim hits back with a dig about how everyone thinks Courtney's wedding was sponsored anyway. And Courtney gets really offended by this. She's like No, it wasn't sponsored. Dolce Ngabbana hosted it because she lives La Dolce Vita. This reference to La Dolce Vida gets an eye roll from Kim, but she tries to keep things civil.

nodding along to what Courtney says, even if she doesn't agree with any of it. And then in a confessional interview, Kim tells us exactly who she believes copied who. Here's that clip. I got married in Italy. Am I saying you copied me by getting married in Italy? Who performed at my wedding? Andrea Bocelli. Who performed at Courtney's wedding?

Andrea Bocelli, you stole my f wedding country and my wedding performer. Andrea Bocelli is my favorite male singer of all time, but I'm copying her Dolce Vita lifestyle. This is just like very funny to me because while Courtney is going on and on about Kim copying the Dolcing Gabbana. she's doing all of these things that Kim could rightfully call her out on. That is true. It's like within the pettiness of this world, like, yeah.

She does have a point. But Kim doesn't say any of this to Courtney. She just lets her sister talk. Courtney's main point is that Kim needs to do some self-reflection and figure out what's really driving her. Kim tells Courtney that she's just trying to prove to all the haters and herself that she can do everything that they say she can. Courtney's whole point is like

You don't know who you are. You have no sense of self. And Kim's like, I know who I am. Like I'm driven by ambition. But Courtney does not accept that as an answer. She tells Kim, You chose money over me. And that's I think Courtney's biggest point is that Kim looks at ambition and business. and making money as her whole identity and never stops to really look inward and ask herself what she might really want. Right. Like

Would turning that down really have hurt her that much? Like could she have just done this nice thing for her sister? So unsurprisingly, just a lack of communication. And I think you can kinda tell that Courtney's been in therapy for a minute and she's just desperately waiting for the rest of her family to like get into therapy. Exactly. Okay.

So here's the problem with being a reality TV star, or at least one of the problems. Your drama doesn't happen just once, but twice. Right. There's the first time that shit goes down in real life. And then there's the drama when you have to watch it all back months later. And that's where Kim and Courtney find themselves during post-production of season three of the Kardashians.

They're watching all the footage that we've been discussing and they're hearing the confessionals that the other one gave to the camera, and they're finally getting both sides of the story. Right. That's by reality TV. A drama spiral Mm-hmm. Just feeds on itself. Yeah. And do you think that watching that makes them understand each other better? No. Yeah, no, not really. Instead it just riles them both up all over again.

And as filming ramps up again, they find themselves on a phone call where things get seriously out of control and start to spiral. They're rehashing all of their old grievances for the millionth time. The wedding, the clothes, the betrayal. Kim voices her frustration and then Courtney just snaps. Here's that clip. You take it all out on me.

And I'm trying the best that I can to reconcile and figure it out and call you all the time It's about you. You are a narcissist. It is all about you. Anything you do, it's about you and about w how it looks to the world about you. So you just want to clear up your facts. Side of the episode. I don't give What anyone thinks about me. Are you happy? Yes. Not not when I'm on the phone with you. I was five minutes ago. First of all, God bless Courtney, but

One Kardashian calling another Kardashian a narcissist is wild. Yeah. So, you know, they're laying it all out there. Courtney tells Kim that she's just happier when she's away from the family. But specifically Kim. She doesn't need to be a part of their drama. And Kim's like, we're just worried for you. We don't think you're happy.

And then she goes, Well, your kids have even come to me with problems that they have and how you are. Wow. Yeah. Lo to be like, your kids were talking shit about you to me, actually. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a sure fire weapon though. Like that'll do it every time. Yeah. Well, that's when Courtney starts breaking down. You can hear her crying through the phone. She just feels like everyone is against her. Which is not that crazy because also during that conversation

Kim tells her that they all have a group text without her and they named it not Courtney. Well, I mean that's kind of what she wanted. And she tells Kim You're just an effing witch and I effing hate you. And then she ends the call.

Wow. Those are relationship ending words. Well, three days later, the entire Kardashian clan minus Courtney Flies off to Cabo for a family trip. Great mood to be in on vacation. Yeah. And the tensions are Hi. And while Kim and Courtney sit down for a joint confessional later in this episode, where they admit that they got heated and said things they regret.

It's clear that the issues between them are deep seated and most likely not going anywhere anytime soon. Does not sound like it. Also they look like they're being held at gunpoint in that. Confessional. Yeah. And that's where we are as of now in this Kardashian versus Kardashian feud. And I think what's so interesting about this feud on social media at least.

It's the first time that I've seen people like pretty much fifty-fifty take sides. And the line down the middle was big sisters versus little sisters. Like all the little sisters understood where Kim was coming from. and thought Courtney was being crazy. And then all the big sisters were like, mm-mm, I know exactly what she's talking about. Again, from the outside, ridiculous. But if I put myself in either of their shoes, like I understand.

every ounce of animosity that they both feel. I'm trying to think of the normal person version of this. Like what is it? It just everybody wants to feel special. Yeah, and I think in that family it's probably hard after a certain point to feel special. And I wonder if part of her work in therapy was really like self-reflecting and figuring out what she wants and realizing

There is no point in trying to work as hard or compete with Kim really because Kim isn't a league of her own and also she doesn't have the same values. And so Courtney had found something that's seemingly was just for her and then all of a sudden it wasn't. Right. I mean, as the younger sibling in my family, I feel like Courtney should know as the oldest that you never get to have anything for yourself.

Once there are new children, the game is over. I'm an older sister, and being a big sister is just really about knowing at the end of the day that like you are gonna have to be the one who ends up being fine with everything. Like you will just have to suck it up. And work on yourself because you cannot change anyone or control anyone. Though I do think always a bad idea to try to fight your big sister because let me tell ya, never gonna win. This is the first one.

This is Kim and Courtney Kardashian. The show is hosted by me, Sidney Battle. And me, Matt Belisai. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were times the Kardashians continue to blend business and family, but the crack Alex Burns wrote this episode. Kate Downey is our lead producer. Yasmin Ward is our producer and Jake Dvorsky is our associate producer. Our story editors are Alex Burns and Greg Castro.

Peter Johansson is our senior producer. Sound design is done by Kelly Krimeric, with additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Audio editing by Steve Mazer. Fact-checking by Gabrielle Jolet. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freeze on Sync. Ryan Lohr is our senior managing producer. Sophia Martens and Sarah Kenny Corrigan are our coordinating producers. Our executive producers are Janine Cornelow, Stephanie Jens, and Marshall Lewey for Wondery.

Hello, I'm Matt Ford. And I'm Alice Levine. And we're the hosts of British Scandal. Now, Britain loves a royal scandal. Abdications, affairs, go. We'd have the lot. But this series is about two brothers. formed by tragedy, supposed to be inseparable. end up barely speaking. Was it jealousy, the press, the firm? Or was this royal rift always inevitable? This is the story of Harry and Wills and the scandal that split the House of Wills.

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