I think a bigger problem can come about when they see you as a person. Well, you're not like that. Right. So like, yes, you may be black, but you're not like most black people. Right. So. Because I've heard that. Yeah. Like, clearly I've gotten that and I've tried to figure out how to help a process that. So. If you believe we can change the narrative, if you believe we can change our communities, if you believe we can change the outcomes, then we can change the world.
I'm Rob Richardson. Welcome to Disruption Now. Welcome to Disruption. Now I'm your host, the moderator, Rob Richardson. With me is Kerel Cooper with Group Black. If you don't know Group Black, it's one of the largest. It is the largest black owned media collective agency. And it's about empowering essentially more dollars that are there that are being spent advertising dollars to go back to the black creators. They're actually creating the value.
This started as a as kind of a call and a mission in 2020 after the awakening of people, I guess, or the we were reawakening, whatever you want to call it, right. Got to feel they went back to sleep a little bit, but that's neither here nor there, but grew black, started at that moment to really bring a reckoning to media advertising dollars and making sure that they are being spent in a more equitable way.
And Kerel is the president of advertising that grew black, and he's also the host of the Minority podcast, which I've been on. I encourage you also to go on to that podcast. Kerel, welcome. Hey, Rob, how you doing? It's good to be here. And like you said, I appreciate at the time when you were a guest on my podcast and and I'm looking forward to being a guest on yours and this conversation excited for. Absolutely.
And it was great to have you at Midwest and hope you'll come back and we can do some this together with Midwest. We already got the date, so we want to do more with Group Black. Excited to talk more. But I want to get to something. I just want to get right to it and we'll get to levels. In terms of your details of your career and and what you're doing a group black and how that's going. But I like to really kind of go to talk a little bit more about your role traditionally in your career.
I read in a podcast a listen to a podcast that you were on, and you said something that I think every black leader or any, frankly, leader that's that's from a minority group can understand. Right? You said a lot of times, almost always in your career you that you've either been the only one or the highest ranking black person in that position, and that brings that additional level of pressure and stress.
What type of pressure and stress does that bring being the sometimes only or the highest ranking African-American in the room or at the table? Yeah. So first, I've been in the digital advertising space for 24 years now, and up until I joined Group Black a year and a half ago, that statement was was very true, right. Of of for me throughout my career, either being the only black leader in the room or the highest ranking black leader in the room.
And the I think the additional pressure that it brings, at least for me, is you feel like you are in a way carrying the flag and having, you know, the entire weight of the black community on your shoulders. Right. Because if you do a good job, then that potentially opens the door for other black leaders to come in. If you don't do a job, it could have the opposite effect. And so and so that's what I mean about the additional stress.
I mean, we know as as black people, it really in any industry you have to overperform outperform sometimes just to get to an even level playing field with with your counterparts that aren't black. Right. And so that additional weight of of doing what I need to do trying to overperform and outperform others at the same time opening the doors for others that look like me. Yeah, I believe there's a real tension there too, on many different sides, right?
Because it's like you said, you don't want to be the last one out the door. And when they acknowledge it or not, when you're the first, you do represent for people that aren't aware or don't necessarily have as a let's say, as a as many diverse experiences or friends, you're going to represent what they think of black people. Sometimes I've often actually think that sometimes when they see it. I think a bigger problem can come about when they see you as a person.
Well, you're not like that, right? So like, yes, you may be black, but you're not like most black people, right? So because I've heard that. Yeah, like, clearly I've gotten that and I've tried to figure out how to help a process that.
So on one side it's that on the other side it's I've also dealt with the tension of other, you know, black folks, frankly, that haven't understood that have had some difficulty understanding how to how you have to maneuver those politics in the right way to actually go about that. So talk about those tensions. So how do you deal with that? Right. Like sometimes when you do a great job, they don't see it as like, this is what all people can do that are black.
This is maybe you're the exception to the rule. How do you challenge that and how do you challenge the other side when folks are our own folks sometimes don't understand what you are actually doing to open the door? Because I've felt that before too. So yeah, yeah. No, I and I've talked about this in in interviews that I've done in the past too, earlier on in my career. Code switching right. Was was, was a big thing right for me and obviously others that you know
maybe for you and others that's like look like us. Right. And tell the truth as a part of what had to do. Right. Right. And you do it because again, you don't feel comfortable in the room. Sometimes you don't feel like you belong in the room and you're doing what you can to fit in right in many ways so that you can stay in the room and try to excel. Right. For me, you know, as I've as I've grown in my career, got in senior positions and really more confident and grounded in and who I am.
Code switching is has gone away like I am. Who I am. And you know I am too now. Yeah, we're good. We're good. Like you. You know, you're hiring. You're hiring me for me. So I'm going to be me, right? And and I always try to think about successes that I have. And, you know, again, the successes that I have is, you know, attributed to my work, my team's work, you know, my companies work.
But I also tried my best to promote successes that other people that look like us in the industry have as well, too. You know, we check my LinkedIn feed, I'm resharing stuff. I'm saying congratulations and doing all that.
So I think, you know, to answer your question there, I think you have to focus on doing what you do and make sure again you are performing to the best of your ability, but you also should be supporting others around you that look like you in the work that they're doing as well too, because that's the way you know, you can show that you know more, you know, black people in leadership positions coming up in their careers are performing well and and are doing a great job
in the subject matter that they're focused on, if you will. Yes. I mean, I think you know, where I thought you might be going, particularly when someone says like, well, you're the, you know, the special Negro or whatever you want to call it, like the one like, you're different. I thought you were I thought you might talk about, like, having a teachable moment with, with some of your colleagues. Like, I've had to do that.
And it was a it was an extreme example, and I'll be very brief, but I was on the board of the University of Cincinnati, and one of our officers had shot and unjustifiably shot and killed an African-American male. And this is before 2020. I mean, we know had been happening for a long time. And and and, you know, one of my colleagues said, well, you know, he was doing X, Y, Z, and you wouldn't do that.
And, you know, I had to take a pause and I and and make him understand that he wouldn't have known me as the chairman of the board. He would have seen a black man, a tall black man. And you have to understand, I've been pulled over. Gun has been pulled out of me by an officer for no reason, and I wasn't doing anything. So I want you to know that it's not that is not it has nothing to do other than anything that this person only saw my color and reacted in a way.
Yeah. And it's not because he was a bad person or I'm an exceptionally good black person. And so I think I try to use those moments and figure out a way to deal with those modes. I'm not sure if you had a moment like that and if you can think about how you communicated in a way that was actually constructive and actually taught people something. If you don't, we can move on.
I just wanted to say, yeah, no, no, no. I mean, listen, I have plenty of moments throughout my life, in my career, you know, similar to you, you know, been pulled over for for no reason. I have had situations where I'm in meetings and someone from an external organization is coming into the room to talk to me and other senior folks.
And again, being the only black person in the room when they're speaking, they're looking at everyone else in the eye and looking past me right when, when, and in some cases on the subject matter expert in in the room. Right. And what I what I try to do in those situations and what I teach folks who I mentor or who ask me how to deal with those situations is don't lose yourself. You have to be. You have to be. You continue to perform.
And don't let someone who sees you a certain way and has the level of ignorance bring you down to their level. You know, stay high with that. Yeah, No, that's great. So kind of switching a little bit to how you got into this career, how did you get into the career of digital advertising? Like what brought you here by chance?
Quite frankly, coming out of school in the late nineties and applying for jobs that, you know, I went to Keio University, which is a division three school in Union, New Jersey, and I had a I graduated with an undergrad in management science, in a concentration in marketing. And quite frankly, like many kids going through college and coming out of school, I didn't have a clear understanding of what I wanted to do yet. I knew that I eventually wanted to be in marketing and advertising.
But as you know, that's that's very broad. That's very, very broad. Right? And so I, I applied for a role as a sales assistant at a company called Earth Web, which is a online publisher at the time, focused on delivering information and news to IT professionals.
And, you know, long story short, I got the job as a sales assistant, and after six months as a sales assistant, my VP of sales pulls me in our office and says, Hey, we're creating this new department called ad Operation is would you have any interest in and wanting to move over into that team and be an ad trafficker and again, not knowing much about digital advertising at the time, what ad operations meant, but being very hungry and knew that I just wanted
to try different things and perform and move up. And luckily, as I got into the ad operations field, it drew me in and it drew me in for a number of reasons. One, I think for anyone coming in a digital advertising ad, operations is a good entry point. And I say that from experience because it gives you the chance to learn so much about the business because you see it all right?
You see the sales side of things, you see the product side of things, you see the technology side of things using ad servers and data management platforms and all of those tools. And so it was a good way for me to to get that foundation and from there, you know, I continued along in my career in ad operations for the first 14 years of my career.
Most notably, I worked at a local news publisher called Advance Digital, moved up to manager director level, did some pretty cool things that advance Digital, like implementing their first programmatic strategy, implementing their first data and audience strategy and audience extension. And then in 2014, I moved over to a company called Live in Tent, where I made a pivot in my career.
I went from ad operations to account management, and for me the pivot was important because I was going to be in a position now where I could build a team that was responsible for servicing ad operations professionals. So I was moving to sort of the other side of the industry, if you will, and built out that account management team led account management at Live Intent for about two years. And then I decided to make another pivot in my career.
So before you go to that role, because I have a question in between so often, I think in order to be successful in anything entrepreneurship life, it's about having perseverance, pushing through tough times, Also having patience though, because you can be working hard and understanding things do take time, but then it's pivoting to right.
You can you can have enough patience, you could be persevering, but then you've got to pivot as you talk about your next pivot, all your pivot, how do you know when is the right time to pivot? Yeah, that's a it's a very interesting question. And I'm not sure you always fully know it's the right time. I think it's a combination of knowing that you want to pivot and being ready and also being ready for when that opportunity actually comes along. Right.
Because the opportunity could have come along for me, but maybe I wasn't thinking about it and wouldn't have been and wouldn't have been ready. Right. So I think it's a combination of those two things. And, you know, as we talk a little bit more about my career, you know, one of the things that I've I've always sort of looked at and said is I never wanted to be put in a box.
I think so many times, you know, professionals get put in a box, companies get put in a box, this is an ops person, this is a salesperson. It is a marketing person. And I always wanted to be thought about as someone who is a leader and likes to build high performing teams. And no matter what role you put me in, that's what I'm going to focus on doing.
And that's what I've tried to do throughout my career, whether it be my long career in ad operations, whether it be the time where I moved over to live in tent and built out and ran the account management team for my first couple of years. Or even then when I pivoted after running, the account management team pivoted into marketing and led and built out product marketing team and then eventually all of marketing and then eventually became a CMO at live Intent.
What I've always tried to do whenever I pivot is like I said, what do I need to do to build out high performing teams? That's one. To what can I take from my previous experience that will help me in the new role, Right? And then also, I think a sign of any good leader is understanding where your strengths are, but also where your weaknesses are right now. Being a CMO at live TED after not really coming up through sort of the marketing professional career, right?
I understood that I needed to surround myself with a strong product marketing leader, a strong demand gen leader, a strong creative person, so on and so forth. Right? So I think that that all of that is is super important when you pivot. Yeah. No, no. Great. So let's, let's talk a little bit about leadership then go to the focusing on group lack a little bit. So you talked about the importance some of the important traits of leadership you got. You actually discussed just how I feel.
One of the most important jobs of a leader is to really create the culture and create a culture of trust. What would you say? Like how do you go about as a leader and you've led many times. How do you go about creating that psychological safety, that that culture of trust where people feel empowered to be themselves and speak up when they feel like things need to change? Well, first things first. I think as a leader, any leader, you have to do what you say you're going to do, right?
That's first and foremost in terms of building trust. If you say that you're going to do something, you need to follow up and you need to make sure that you you do it. I also think that as a leader, you have to make sure that your teams know that your door is open to them whenever they need you. Right. And for me, I'm not a micromanager in any sense of the word. I hire people who I expect to stand on their own two feet to be able to to do their job.
And I'm going to give them the room to to to to do their job. But at the same time, they understand and know that my door is open. I'm here to support them. I'm here to provide guidance. I'm here to provide air cover. At times I'm here to break down barriers and challenges that are impacting their ability to do their job. So when it comes to sort of building trust and building a culture for people to be themselves, I think all of those things are involved.
I also think it's also important that as a leader that I myself right, because they see if they see that I am being who I am, then I think that that makes them feel comfortable as well too. There's a there's a level of comfortability that's provided for them to to also be themselves. So what do you think? Is Utah about being a leader and understanding your strengths and weaknesses to that point? What do you believe is your biggest lesson failure as a leader and how did you grow from that?
Yeah, so again, being a leader for as many years as I as I've been managing people, because you can be a leader without being a manager, but being as managing people, you know, I've probably managed hundreds, if not thousands of people throughout my career. You don't always get those. You don't get every situation right. Right. I have made hires that I shouldn't have made, and I learned from that. I have mismanaged people in the past and I've learned from that.
And so I think that's where if I think about is there any one thing that sticks out in terms of like it can be a moment. Yeah, this confidentially and to get into the specific details but just for the audience to learn like what was that one moment that I could feel there's something there that's there is like, what is that?
Yeah, there definitely was a situation in the past where, you know, I had a couple of of direct reports and one direct report didn't feel that maybe I was potentially giving that person. I'm trying to be as is. I don't want to. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Maybe I wasn't giving that individual the time and attention that maybe others that were reporting to me got right. And, you know, as I, as I think back on that situation itself and I've been I've learned from that.
I've been, you know, better from that from that situation. But as I think back on that situation, I didn't feel that at the time that that person was correct in what they were saying. But I can go back now and see that, okay, yes, maybe I was potentially spending time in other areas versus spending time with that individual. Maybe some of that was I thought that that individual maybe didn't need as much of my attention as others. But at the same time. Right.
I take the ownership for that because I need to be leading in terms of the communication there as well too, if that makes sense. No, no, it makes total sense. It's the challenging part is to really you have to go beyond sometimes just like the surface because every different person. Yes. As they're different, you know, if it's not a it's not a direct comparison, but it's close. Like just like in a relationship. People have love languages.
People have ways that they need communication and figuring out, especially if you have high performers, what that looks like for each individual person is a lot of work. But it's very important, I think, for leaders to understand that because then people are more aware right away 1,000%. And and what I have learned from that particular situation is I need to meet people where they are exactly right. And at the same time, I struggle with that a lot, too. Right? Right.
Meet people where they are and also realize that everyone is different as well too, right? Communication style or how much time they may need from you ideas. They want all of those things. And so that that was the biggest lesson learned from that situation is meet people where they are. And I definitely think that I learned a lot from that. And I'm a better leader because of that situation. Okay, so now you're leading group Black and the president of advertising.
And, you know, as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast group, Black started really as an opportunity. And in response to what happened with George Floyd and many others, frankly, and it was a collective moment that it seemed as if, you know, more of America was open to investing and looking at things differently. And so who Black took that moment with media and advertising. So I loved it to as well, based upon how it started. How's it going?
Yeah, well, so we are two and a half years into it as an organization, right now. So very much still growing, very much still learning. But it's been going. It's been going great. You know, I think we have grown tremendously over the last couple of years. I will say, though, that, you know, not everyone who made those promises and commitments has have lived up. no, Never, never. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that never happens. Yeah, I want to be I want to be clear on that. Right.
I mean, that's the reality of the situation. Some are doing better than others, but at the same time, we as a company, we continue to grow. We continue to figure out what works best for us in terms of a product offering and how we execute on those products, how we help our customers reach their goals and how we live up to our mission and vision, which is to dramatically transform the face of media ownership and investment.
Yeah, So okay, so like you, I know, grew Black, came out with a report about black creators to really provide objective measurables for things that you know should be obvious, but it's not. And so to people, I guess that the value that black creators are creating economically, but of course not getting that same type of return. Can you talk more about that report and what you hope happens as a result of that report? Yeah, sure. So first of all, let me say this.
I think as it relates to creators, in many ways, creators are like a new version of publishers these days. And and what I and what I mean by that is you can go on various social platforms that exist that are out there, and you can tune in and you can find out what's going on in the world without even going to a traditional news organization or news site. Right. You know, there are a number of creators out there that I follow that cover news, sports, entertainment, history, all types of subjects.
Right. And they're doing it in a very, very unique way for us. A group Black again, is as one of our product offerings, is is you know we work with a network of of of creators. And again, as we're talking to agencies and brands and understanding what their goals and KPIs are, we have the ability to come up with these bespoke programs and connect the creators with the brands to to execute on that.
And as we were getting into that business, one of the things that we immediately realized and there are, you know, hundreds of articles out there about this is that, you know, black creators, for whatever reason, don't have access to the same opportunities as non-black creators. And, you know, there is this and we thought about that and there's this sort of myth that exists that maybe black creators don't drive the same value as non-black creators.
And so for us, it grew black again, trying to keep true to our mission and vision of dramatically transforming the face of media ownership and investment. It was important for us to set out to disprove that myth, right, and to do it with data. Right? And so we entered into a partnership with Nielsen where we essentially just ran a study and a research with Nielsen, where we compared 300 black creators to 300 non-black creators and really looked at the media value that they drive.
And it's a combination of things of looking at engagement increase in followers, right? Those those sorts of metrics. And when we dug into the data, right, not really to our surprise, but we we had now we had the data to back it up. Black creators are driving just as much, if not higher media value in a number of different categories, like gaming and e-sports, lifestyle, fashion, so on and so forth. Then non-black creators.
And so for us it was important to put out a very impactful report for marketers, for brands, for agencies to show them that there's an opportunity here that you are not taking advantage of. Right? And for any marketer and brand, they're always looking for, okay, how do I grow my business? How do I reach my goals, Right? Where's the next opportunity? And for us, it was great to really create this first of a kind black creator report that showed in detail how black creators drive media value.
What was success look like for group Black? That's a great question. That that in many ways that we don't exist in the future, right? In many ways that that last one answer yeah yeah that that we create, you know a level playing field for media ownership and investment right? And that's, that's what we're trying to do. So in many ways is for, for, for us not to exist. that's great answer. So, okay, I got a couple of rapid fire questions. Will I like to ask some folks on here?
Let's see, what advice would you give to your younger self? What would and what would you ignore? What advice would you give to my younger self? Think before you speak. And and I give that advice to people that I mentor now and I follow it myself even today. I mean, you can get into very heated conversations, right? And if you respond emotionally, if you're respond in the heat of the moment, you may ultimately say things that you regret and you can't take back. Yep.
And even even today, I make sure I follow that when I'm having maybe a spirited debate with someone or I need to write a very sort of direct but productive email. I'll get up from my desk and I will, you know, go take a walk or, you know, count to 20 or something like that. Right. You never want to respond when you're emotional.
State is very high. Yep. An emotional response to a power situation will decrease your opportunities and power exponentially, even though you'll feel great in that singular moment. Like I got this out, that person knows exactly how I feel and that's not. But your feelings aren't even a real thing. They're just how you need to be able to actually control them. That's something I've had to appreciate more. I'm a very passionate person, if you can't tell. Yeah, right. But.
But I work towards like, okay, things have to you have to really think things out because very rarely is it worth blowing up a bridge. Very right is like right. You can literally be at war with somebody. Then you got to figure out how to work with that person later and you just it's so, it's so if you can preserve some status of the relationship, you should always do it. I mean, that's absolutely. I agree. Okay. A theme for your life or let's say a digital ad for Kerel Cooper's life.
What would that be and why? Positive impact every situation that I'm in, every company that I go to, every team that I try to build, I try to leave it better than when I when I found it or people that I mentor. I try to make sure they leave, you know, our mentorship with me, providing something that has had a positive impact on them and so, you know, at this point in my career, anyone that I engage with, any company that I work with, that that's what's the most important for me.
How do I leave a positive impact? All right. You have a committee of three in business or life poor, these three people advising you and why a committee of three? That's that's a great. I'm going to go one. My dad. Okay. Advising me. He is is been obviously, you know, in my life a key figure in making sure that I was successful. I stayed out of trouble. And he always gave me great advice. I'm going to go with the counselor who admitted me to Cain University. His name is Bruce MacIntyre.
He was sort of a big brother to me while I was on campus for four years. And those four years really set the foundation for my professional career in many ways. So that's two. And then you want three, right? Yeah. Let's see. Third person. I'm trying. You know, you don't have to do three, all right? We do not divorce it. It is not.
Not There's not there. All right, What's an important truth you have that very few people agree with you on How politics So so and I'll explain to you guys later, you know, especially in this day and age. Right. You know, this I mean, it's either you are like it feels like you're either far right or far left. Right. So I don't consider myself a member of either of those parties right when I when I vote.
And by the way, I voted for Democrats before I voted for Republicans, before I voted for independents, before, you know, whether that be at the national, state or local level, For me, it is all about do I think that candidate is going to leave a positive impact, Right. Period. And so in this day and age, you know this man, if you got you got to be on one side or the other. I'm on neither side. And I will vote for any candidate that I feel will leave a positive impact.
Yeah, it's difficult, though. It's we're tribal beings as human beings. Right. And so, you know, you're in digital media, so you can appreciate this. How the media works, how it's always work. But but but particularly now we have now that we have social media, it can amplify some of the worst qualities of human nature. And and the goal is, of course, to keep you engaged. The challenge with that, though, is that it's about keeping you engaged, not if it's truthful.
Yeah, not if it's accurate, not if it's good for you. And I do not have the answer, but I do believe fundamentally there has to be something where we come to a reckoning about how we interact with each other online, because it is literally, I think, the biggest threat to us that's going to happen now because this is war obviously happened. But even as bad as we know, there's some wars going on now relative to human history, it's very low relative to human history.
That doesn't mean there's not horrible things going on. So, yeah, that's very, very clear. Yeah, I like put everything in perspective if you know how many people died. Over 50 million people die in World War Two, right. War was that that happened everywhere, all across the world at any time. And then the other thing that would kill us was, of course, you know, plagues and germs generally.
Still, out of all the statistics, more people die from sugar and suicide than they do from soldiers collectively. So I believe our biggest challenge going forward as a human race is going to be how we actually interact with each other, with technology and artificial intelligence, because those things are going to they already have and they're going to continue to amplify how we how we connect with each other.
And if there's no thought to positive impact that you say, yeah, as into human emotion and the calming tensions, then it's going to lead to more divisions and actually could make us make it. Yeah. Or things like that. That is my biggest concern. And I'm a pro technologist. I'm also, though I believe in policy that we need to do that can both promote innovation, but then still sets transparency because I do think we're going to need to reckon with this.
But until that point, we as individual humans have to talk to our kids and everybody else about how to decipher what is happening in the world because this, you know, disinformation and how the media is working is one of our biggest challenges. That's yeah, I listen, I agree with you on the technology piece. And you know, as a as a parent of of a teenage daughter right now, that that's one of my number one concern to me. When you and I were in high school, if we had to deal with a bully
or someone that we didn't like. Right. We dealt with it for a few hours and then we went home. Now it's 24 seven with the device that's in everyone's hands. Right. And, you know, that's just one example of many because one is another one. While we're on this point, the will conclude is that, you know, I was talking to my friend. We were done with our kids, too.
And that, you know, if you notice this, because we grew up around the same age, like kids don't dance at all much anymore in terms of groups and things like that. And you know why that is, I believe, is because they're worried about social media like and when people get on there, they're worried about people are going to make fun of them forever. So, like, they're they're actually losing out of the experience of what it was like to feel the impact. Yeah, yeah. Because there is it's always there.
Always on there's always, you know, there's always a phone or camera or something to that where, you know, again, it's going back to that age. That was that was never that was never the case. You don't have to worry about somebody dunked on you or something like that. I play basketball right. Like you don't have to. The thing wasn't highlighted over and over again. I'm here to ask people to see now. Yeah, do worry about more like scoring points.
They say I don't want to be able to suck it up because. Because back back when we were younger. Yes. That that will live in your mind forever. Now it lives for everyone to see forever. So those are the challenges. Again, I don't have the answer, but I do think we have to. I think we're just going to we're just now starting to appreciate what that has done to the psychological and the brains of of of kids, because we were at the time where it affects us, too. But we've been without it.
So we also know that world, too. And now we're at a world where that's that's literally hardwired into who they are. And it's not like you can opt your kids out of social media. They won't be able to do anything. So you have to we got to figure out how we have that balance. We have to embrace it. But there has to be a balance, a balance, and it has to be in a series of other work that group like is doing so important.
It has to be a balance in how we're telling the message, because then that can affect how people view black and brown people, because there's not a thought about that and the algorithms and everything else. So I actually think it's a higher call than just when we talk about investment and ownership. It's also what are we outputting there that is actually telling the full story of the black and brown experience? Yeah, absolutely, Kerel. It's been a it's been a pleasure having you on.
Always good connecting with you. Great having you. I appreciate your brother. All right. Thanks, Rob. Appreciate it. Right