Disruption Now Episode 160: Quest for Justice Aswad Thomas

00:00:00:04 - 00:00:02:24 Welcome to MidwestCon 2023. 00:00:02:24 - 00:00:07:24 Rob Richardson, founder of Disrupt Art and also host of the podcast Disruption Now. 00:00:07:24 - 00:00:11:25 we're we're here live at the Digital Futures building. 00:00:12:01 - 00:00:17:13 And I'm here with my next guest, Aswad Thomas. 00:00:17:15 - 00:00:21:08 and he is the VP of the Alliance for Safety and Justice, the largest 00:00:21:08 - 00:00:24:08 criminal justice organization in the nation. 00:00:24:13 - 00:00:27:18 They've been responsible for reforms that have happened essentially 00:00:27:19 - 00:00:31:01 the largest criminal justice reform we've ever seen in this nation. 00:00:31:01 - 00:00:34:24 And this is really an important point to me. 00:00:34:26 - 00:00:39:13 We spend more money than any nation by a lot 00:00:39:13 - 00:00:41:09 when it comes to locking up people. 00:00:41:09 - 00:00:42:15 And you think we'd be the safest? 00:00:42:15 - 00:00:44:27 The only thing we're the best at is locking up the most people 00:00:44:27 - 00:00:49:09 that spending the most money and ruining as many lives as possible. 00:00:49:12 - 00:00:51:16 There are better ways to approach safety. 00:00:51:16 - 00:00:53:20 There are effective ways to approach safety. 00:00:53:20 - 00:00:56:22 But first, we have to change the narrative and with me, Aswad. 00:00:56:23 - 00:00:59:19 Thomas We're going to talk about that in his role 00:00:59:19 - 00:01:01:04 and what he's done in his story. 00:01:01:04 - 00:01:04:17 In particular, We're going to talk about the head of his organization, 00:01:04:17 - 00:01:07:17 Lenore Thomas, who's also been on this podcast 00:01:07:18 - 00:01:11:17 where I talk about that book In their names, which is a wonderful book. 00:01:11:20 - 00:01:15:08 There are two books that everybody must read when it comes 00:01:15:08 - 00:01:16:24 to criminal justice reform. 00:01:16:24 - 00:01:18:13 The first is In their names. 00:01:18:13 - 00:01:19:07 You need to read that. 00:01:19:07 - 00:01:23:17 The second of many of you probably have read, which is the new Jim Crow. 00:01:23:20 - 00:01:27:29 If you are at all interested or curious about why criminal justice reform 00:01:28:01 - 00:01:30:25 is the most important civil rights 00:01:30:25 - 00:01:34:03 topic of our air, you need to read both of these books. 00:01:34:03 - 00:01:35:15 They're both of us. 00:01:35:15 - 00:01:39:08 We're going to talk about we're going to talk about the first in our podcast. 00:01:39:08 - 00:01:41:19 Will see you on the other side 00:01:41:21 - 00:01:42:22 If you believe we can change 00:01:42:22 - 00:01:45:22 the narrative, if you believe we can change our communities, 00:01:45:24 - 00:01:49:25 if you believe we can change the outcomes, then we can change the world. 00:01:49:28 - 00:01:51:14 I'm Rob Richardson. 00:01:51:14 - 00:01:54:14 Welcome to Disruption Now. 00:01:54:16 - 00:01:54:26 Aswad. 00:01:54:26 - 00:01:56:25 thank you, man. How are you going? How you doing? Pretty good. 00:01:56:25 - 00:01:59:04 Thanks so much for having me here. Yeah. 00:01:59:04 - 00:02:03:25 So tell me, what is your passion? 00:02:03:27 - 00:02:06:11 May I ask a good question? 00:02:06:11 - 00:02:09:09 I'll start with what was my first passion. 00:02:09:09 - 00:02:11:18 Yeah, For me, basketball. 00:02:11:18 - 00:02:14:04 You know, I was born in Hartford, Connecticut. 00:02:14:04 - 00:02:17:10 I spent most of my childhood in Detroit, Michigan. 00:02:17:10 - 00:02:21:21 You know, I grew up in a single-parent home, the youngest of five boys. 00:02:21:21 - 00:02:24:14 And so for me, you know, growing up inside the community 00:02:24:14 - 00:02:27:29 was like two things that I thought that I would need to excel at, right? 00:02:28:06 - 00:02:30:22 Or for me to help make it out of my neighborhood. 00:02:30:22 - 00:02:35:00 One was my academics and the second was basketball. 00:02:35:02 - 00:02:35:16 Right? 00:02:35:16 - 00:02:38:16 You know, that was the thing that kept me out of trouble. 00:02:38:21 - 00:02:42:27 That was the only safe place that I had in my neighborhood to really get away 00:02:42:27 - 00:02:49:07 from, you know, the things that surrounded me, the poverty, the violence as well. 00:02:49:07 - 00:02:51:05 So I end up going to college. 00:02:51:05 - 00:02:54:24 I became the first male of my family to ever graduate from college 00:02:54:24 - 00:02:59:04 and was also on my way to play professional basketball overseas. 00:02:59:04 - 00:03:02:01 So for me, basketball was my passion. 00:03:02:01 - 00:03:05:10 But things happened in my life and opened up 00:03:05:10 - 00:03:08:20 a new chapter, a new passion of mine, which is traveling the country. 00:03:08:20 - 00:03:10:24 Organized crime survivors. 00:03:10:24 - 00:03:12:15 Well, tell me, tell me what happened. 00:03:12:15 - 00:03:16:06 I mean, we know I know from the book In Their Names by Lenore Anderson. 00:03:16:06 - 00:03:19:02 So I know I know something about your story, but 00:03:19:02 - 00:03:21:11 your passion, your first passion was basketball. 00:03:21:11 - 00:03:24:07 But you know the universe, that everything took another direction. 00:03:24:07 - 00:03:25:03 How did that happen? 00:03:25:03 - 00:03:25:11 Yeah. 00:03:25:11 - 00:03:28:08 So 2009, you know, for me, that was the highest point in my life. 00:03:28:08 - 00:03:30:03 I just graduated from college, 00:03:30:03 - 00:03:33:13 the first male in my family to ever graduate from college. 00:03:33:13 - 00:03:35:04 So that was just a historical moment 00:03:35:04 - 00:03:38:09 for myself, my family and also for my entire community. 00:03:38:09 - 00:03:41:17 And I was also a star basketball player as well. 00:03:41:24 - 00:03:45:19 But unfortunately, 2009 became the lowest point in my life 00:03:45:21 - 00:03:47:26 when I was, you know, just leaving 00:03:47:26 - 00:03:51:14 the corner store in my neighborhood in Hartford, Connecticut. 00:03:51:20 - 00:03:53:17 I was shot twice in my back. 00:03:53:17 - 00:03:56:21 And those bullets nearly 00:03:56:27 - 00:04:02:21 ended my life, ended my professional basketball career as well. 00:04:02:22 - 00:04:07:11 You know, I remember being in that hospital bed and my doctor, 00:04:07:11 - 00:04:08:03 you know, kind of, 00:04:08:03 - 00:04:13:01 you know, come to my bedside and say, you know, you are a victim of gun violence 00:04:13:01 - 00:04:16:15 and you have two bullets stuck in your back. 00:04:16:17 - 00:04:20:03 And we don't know if you will be able to play basketball again. 00:04:20:06 - 00:04:22:24 We don't know if you ever would be able to walk home. 00:04:22:24 - 00:04:24:07 How did that feel when you were there? 00:04:24:07 - 00:04:25:14 That's when it hit me. 00:04:25:14 - 00:04:29:23 Hit me because I worked so hard on the basketball court to hear that, 00:04:29:23 - 00:04:35:15 you know, I may not be able to play professional basketball again. 00:04:35:17 - 00:04:39:07 It kind of brought me to a stage of depression. 00:04:39:10 - 00:04:43:15 It brought me to something that I wasn't good at something. 00:04:43:15 - 00:04:48:09 And I spent hours of training, hours of fighting my craft within a split 00:04:48:09 - 00:04:55:17 second was gone away by two two bullets as well, while 00:04:55:19 - 00:04:58:12 so walked me through the moment 00:04:58:12 - 00:05:03:01 when you after it, after this has happened, I know that then the 00:05:03:03 - 00:05:06:03 the police came up and started 00:05:06:11 - 00:05:09:11 their investigation. 00:05:09:15 - 00:05:11:23 What happened when that occur? 00:05:11:23 - 00:05:13:06 What was that? 00:05:13:06 - 00:05:14:00 You know, take us through that. 00:05:14:00 - 00:05:17:27 Several things happened during that moment when I was released from the hospital 00:05:18:03 - 00:05:23:15 back into the same neighborhood where I was shot, because that's where I lived. 00:05:23:16 - 00:05:26:04 I remember being discharged from the hospital. 00:05:26:04 - 00:05:29:29 You know, my doctors and the nurses, they told me about the physical challenges 00:05:30:02 - 00:05:31:16 that I would have. 00:05:31:16 - 00:05:35:09 But nobody never mentioned the psychological effects 00:05:35:09 - 00:05:40:04 of being a victim of gun violence and having to live in the same neighborhood 00:05:40:07 - 00:05:41:00 where you were shot. 00:05:41:00 - 00:05:43:05 So during that recovery process, I was struggling. 00:05:43:05 - 00:05:47:10 And with the PTSD, you know, the flashbacks, the nightmares, 00:05:47:10 - 00:05:53:01 the depression to anger, you know, the isolation that I was going through. 00:05:53:04 - 00:05:55:25 And so, during this time, as I was recovering, 00:05:55:25 - 00:05:58:19 you know, law enforcement came to visit me. 00:05:58:19 - 00:06:03:14 And, you know, Rob, every time they came to visit me, it was always about the case. 00:06:03:17 - 00:06:06:23 And I remember them asking me, you know, hey, you know, 00:06:06:23 - 00:06:10:13 what were you doing outside at that particular time? 00:06:10:18 - 00:06:13:05 Did you have any confrontations with anyone you know? 00:06:13:05 - 00:06:14:25 Have you been involved in, 00:06:14:25 - 00:06:18:09 you know, anything that could have led to you being shot? 00:06:18:11 - 00:06:23:08 And here I am recovering from these bullets on my mother's couch. 00:06:23:08 - 00:06:25:03 I'm saying I just graduated from college. 00:06:25:03 - 00:06:25:16 Yeah, right. 00:06:25:16 - 00:06:26:20 I'm a star basketball player. 00:06:26:20 - 00:06:29:24 I've never been in trouble at all. 00:06:29:26 - 00:06:32:11 So right then, you know, those interacting with the law 00:06:32:11 - 00:06:33:21 actually became more stressful. 00:06:33:21 - 00:06:35:14 Yeah, Assumption was made. 00:06:35:14 - 00:06:40:10 The assumption was made that somehow, like, it's victim blaming or whatever. 00:06:40:10 - 00:06:42:07 You deserve What happened to you? 00:06:42:07 - 00:06:44:23 Something must have happened for that to happen. 00:06:44:23 - 00:06:47:04 They shot you for some reason. 00:06:47:04 - 00:06:49:16 And I guarantee you that story. 00:06:49:16 - 00:06:52:05 If they walk over to the suburbs of Baltimore. 00:06:52:05 - 00:06:53:20 Correct. Hartford, Connecticut. 00:06:53:20 - 00:06:54:08 Hartford, Connecticut. 00:06:54:08 - 00:06:58:02 If it was if it was the suburbs in Connecticut, in Connecticut. 00:06:58:02 - 00:07:02:21 And, you know, perhaps, you know, your your skin looked a little different, yet 00:07:02:23 - 00:07:05:12 the conversation would have been we're going to 00:07:05:12 - 00:07:07:25 we're going to we're going to make sure the people that did this pay. 00:07:07:25 - 00:07:09:17 How can we go about helping you there? 00:07:09:17 - 00:07:13:17 And people don't understand that that that that 00:07:13:19 - 00:07:15:23 our interaction with law enforcement, 00:07:15:23 - 00:07:20:25 unfortunately, that's what you went through is not unusual. 00:07:20:25 - 00:07:21:28 It's a commonplace. 00:07:21:28 - 00:07:23:23 Yeah, I got to know another person 00:07:23:23 - 00:07:27:26 who had a story where he had to actually defend his life 00:07:27:29 - 00:07:30:09 and he had done everything right 00:07:30:09 - 00:07:33:09 in his entire life to have spotless record. 00:07:33:10 - 00:07:36:27 And because he didn't have a lot of money, you know, 00:07:36:28 - 00:07:38:18 they made him cop to a they didn't make him. 00:07:38:18 - 00:07:41:01 But essentially he had he felt like he had to do this 00:07:41:01 - 00:07:44:26 because he didn't have $100,000 to spend on an attorney to defend him. 00:07:44:28 - 00:07:47:13 So he clearly had all the facts on the side. 00:07:47:13 - 00:07:48:20 But they ask him the same question. 00:07:48:20 - 00:07:51:08 They said, well, you know, they assumed he was a gang member. 00:07:51:08 - 00:07:54:08 You know, he's he's you know, he was he was a marine. 00:07:54:11 - 00:07:56:25 And they still do. Didn't matter. Wow. 00:07:56:25 - 00:08:00:29 Like they only saw one thing and and they knew 00:08:00:29 - 00:08:05:00 the person that he had to shoot was actually a well known 00:08:05:00 - 00:08:09:18 and was a well known gang member and had done things to people. 00:08:09:20 - 00:08:11:17 But he was assumed to be somehow in the wrong. 00:08:11:17 - 00:08:11:26 Yeah. 00:08:11:26 - 00:08:14:17 So they had to find a way to get a charge. 00:08:14:17 - 00:08:17:16 They said, well, you know, we got all that, but you know, somebody, 00:08:17:16 - 00:08:20:04 somebody got killed, so we got to charge you with something. 00:08:20:04 - 00:08:21:02 And so they, they didn't. 00:08:21:02 - 00:08:25:29 He served hardly any time, but he had a felony on for the rest of his life. Wow. 00:08:26:02 - 00:08:29:08 And then that affected he and then he didn't appreciate 00:08:29:10 - 00:08:30:15 how that hangs over you. 00:08:30:15 - 00:08:32:17 So let's talk about that. Yeah. 00:08:32:17 - 00:08:34:09 You're in a hard field, man. Yeah. 00:08:34:09 - 00:08:35:27 I mean, very, very. 00:08:35:27 - 00:08:38:05 I You are in a very hard field. 00:08:38:05 - 00:08:40:03 Yeah, it's a no, it's a noble problem. 00:08:40:03 - 00:08:42:03 You and I agree with it. 00:08:42:05 - 00:08:43:28 But what motivates you? 00:08:43:28 - 00:08:44:27 Day in and day out? 00:08:44:27 - 00:08:49:08 Keep going when it's when you have such headwinds. 00:08:49:10 - 00:08:50:20 So that's a great question. 00:08:50:20 - 00:08:53:15 Several things. One, 00:08:53:15 - 00:08:55:15 you know, the experience of the 00:08:55:15 - 00:08:58:10 of a black male who's been a victim of gun. 00:08:58:10 - 00:08:59:20 But I know that all too well 00:08:59:20 - 00:09:02:23 firsthand experience of being a victim of gun violence. 00:09:02:29 - 00:09:06:07 But I actually come from a family of victims of gun violence. 00:09:06:07 - 00:09:09:05 My father was shot in the 1980s. 00:09:09:05 - 00:09:11:06 My brother was shot in the 1990. 00:09:11:06 - 00:09:14:08 I have two cousins that were shot in the 2000. 00:09:14:08 - 00:09:17:00 Like all of us had interactions with law enforcement. 00:09:17:00 - 00:09:20:17 All of us had some interaction with the justice system, but none of us 00:09:20:17 - 00:09:26:03 never received any type of victim services, any type of mental health or any 00:09:26:06 - 00:09:32:12 any cause or concern for our well-being after being victims of gun violence. 00:09:32:12 - 00:09:34:12 So in my immediate family, five out of the ten 00:09:34:12 - 00:09:37:26 males are victims of gun violence, and six out of ten males 00:09:37:28 - 00:09:42:21 have came in contact with the criminal justice system as well. 00:09:42:21 - 00:09:45:22 So I'm impacted by both sides of it as a victim. 00:09:45:22 - 00:09:48:12 And also my brothers have been incarcerated. 00:09:48:12 - 00:09:52:05 My oldest brother had been incarcerated for the past 22 years. 00:09:52:05 - 00:09:54:08 So so that's the one thing to kind of start to mean. 00:09:54:08 - 00:09:58:02 Think about the impact of the cycle of violence that happened, how 00:09:58:02 - 00:10:01:28 that often leads to people come into contact with the justice system. 00:10:02:00 - 00:10:06:15 The second thing was during my last doctor's appointment 00:10:06:18 - 00:10:10:26 to remove the bullets out of my bag, my doctor, as he's performing surgery on me, 00:10:11:02 - 00:10:15:06 he started to tell me the story of this other young black teenager 00:10:15:09 - 00:10:20:06 from my neighborhood who he had treated for years prior. 00:10:20:12 - 00:10:24:28 So that young man as my doctor was describing to me, was 14 years old. 00:10:25:00 - 00:10:25:22 He was shot. 00:10:25:22 - 00:10:28:22 He was shot in his face at the age of 14 years old. 00:10:28:26 - 00:10:32:03 My doctor saved his life but couldn't save his. I. 00:10:32:06 - 00:10:36:06 And like the more details he started to share about that young man, 00:10:36:09 - 00:10:40:15 as of sitting on the operating table, my heart started to be fast. 00:10:40:18 - 00:10:41:08 Yeah, right. 00:10:41:08 - 00:10:41:18 Because I. 00:10:41:18 - 00:10:45:28 He was describing the young man that shot me. 00:10:46:00 - 00:10:48:21 And I remember telling my doctor, Marshall said, Hey, 00:10:48:21 - 00:10:53:29 I don't know if you know this, but you just describe the young man that 00:10:54:02 - 00:10:58:07 I knew that because of the passion that young man had on his eyes, 00:10:58:08 - 00:10:59:13 my doctor was sharing that. 00:10:59:13 - 00:11:02:25 That young man lost sight in his eye, and we sent him home with a pass. 00:11:02:25 - 00:11:03:23 That's for me. 00:11:03:23 - 00:11:07:00 When I made that connection, it was that young man. 00:11:07:00 - 00:11:10:01 So just just want to just want to dive deeper into that. 00:11:10:01 - 00:11:10:09 Right? 00:11:10:09 - 00:11:14:05 So that teenager at the age of 14 years old was a victim of gun 00:11:14:05 - 00:11:19:13 violence, was released from that same hospital back in to that same community, 00:11:19:16 - 00:11:23:00 just like me, not connected to any services at all. 00:11:23:00 - 00:11:26:14 And then four years later, he played a role 00:11:26:14 - 00:11:30:04 in shooting me four years later. Right. 00:11:30:04 - 00:11:34:23 And so that unaddressed trauma that he was experiencing. 00:11:34:26 - 00:11:35:07 Right. 00:11:35:07 - 00:11:39:05 That often leads to people coming in contact with the justice system. 00:11:39:05 - 00:11:41:21 So in we just released a new study. 00:11:41:21 - 00:11:43:27 I understand the trauma. Yes. 00:11:43:27 - 00:11:46:03 Like people think because I was going to get to hear 00:11:46:03 - 00:11:49:01 that in the book, talks about that in their names, 00:11:49:01 - 00:11:52:15 about really addressing trauma like because that that obviously 00:11:52:18 - 00:11:57:06 I'm guessing is you feel like one of the keys to actually reducing violence 00:11:57:09 - 00:11:57:16 in our 00:11:57:16 - 00:11:58:24 in our community top more to that 00:11:58:24 - 00:11:59:24 yeah is the key 00:11:59:24 - 00:12:03:23 to reducing violence in our communities also the key to reducing incarceration 00:12:03:25 - 00:12:04:01 rate. 00:12:04:01 - 00:12:08:24 So we just released a report this year called The Road to Re Depression. 00:12:08:24 - 00:12:09:22 So our organization, 00:12:09:22 - 00:12:13:17 the Alliance for Safety and Justice, we have two flagship programs. 00:12:13:23 - 00:12:16:24 One program is called Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice, 00:12:16:24 - 00:12:21:12 which is a national network of over 180,000 crime victims 00:12:21:14 - 00:12:23:06 from across the country. 00:12:23:06 - 00:12:26:12 The other part of our program is called Time Done, 00:12:26:19 - 00:12:31:18 which we have 200,000 people who are living would pass convictions. 00:12:31:18 - 00:12:31:25 Right. 00:12:31:25 - 00:12:37:21 And so we bring these two constituencies together to call on a better 00:12:37:23 - 00:12:41:16 criminal justice or better public safety system. 00:12:41:18 - 00:12:44:23 In the report that we did this year called The Road to Redemption, 00:12:44:24 - 00:12:51:01 we found out that nine in ten people who have a past conviction have been 00:12:51:01 - 00:12:56:18 a victim of a crime before they went into the criminal justice system. 00:12:56:20 - 00:12:57:12 Yeah, right. 00:12:57:12 - 00:13:00:09 So being a victim often leads to two things. 00:13:00:09 - 00:13:02:24 One, it can lead to being revictimized again 00:13:02:24 - 00:13:06:28 and often leads to come into contact with our criminal justice system. 00:13:06:28 - 00:13:09:11 And that's where we have failed 00:13:09:11 - 00:13:12:11 communities, especially black and brown communities 00:13:12:18 - 00:13:16:20 in this country, by not focusing on the victimization that people 00:13:16:22 - 00:13:17:13 have experienced. 00:13:17:13 - 00:13:21:09 But of course, that's what the narrative that was put forward 00:13:21:12 - 00:13:24:08 when all of these laws that were supposed to protect us. 00:13:24:08 - 00:13:28:11 Yeah, the narrative that was put forward, it was always somebody 00:13:28:11 - 00:13:30:18 that they put forward that was an awful victim. Right. 00:13:30:18 - 00:13:33:08 That's like the worst facts you can think of. 00:13:33:08 - 00:13:34:18 Yeah, it happens. 00:13:34:18 - 00:13:37:20 And then that usually led to some huge change in the law 00:13:37:21 - 00:13:41:03 that was supposed to protect people, you know, make communities safer. 00:13:41:03 - 00:13:42:09 It did not do that. Right. 00:13:42:09 - 00:13:43:02 We know. 00:13:43:02 - 00:13:44:02 We know what happened. 00:13:44:02 - 00:13:46:03 That's how we got to where we are now. 00:13:46:03 - 00:13:50:08 But to your point, there's hardly any money spent. 00:13:50:10 - 00:13:52:13 Yeah, almost zero. 00:13:52:13 - 00:13:56:04 Yeah, relatively speaking, when it comes to helping the victims 00:13:56:04 - 00:13:58:13 who were actually affected. Exactly right. 00:13:58:13 - 00:14:01:09 All of the money goes to pay for everything else. 00:14:01:09 - 00:14:01:20 Yeah. 00:14:01:20 - 00:14:05:05 The militarization of police, the the parole 00:14:05:05 - 00:14:08:22 officers, the big correctional facilities. 00:14:08:22 - 00:14:09:17 Yeah. 00:14:09:17 - 00:14:11:00 None of it goes to the victims. 00:14:11:00 - 00:14:13:06 People were like. And so, like, and 00:14:13:06 - 00:14:16:21 and so, like, it's interesting, people talk about the victims, 00:14:16:23 - 00:14:18:02 but I don't care. 00:14:18:02 - 00:14:18:21 You talk, right? 00:14:18:21 - 00:14:23:26 What do you show me what you spend money on and I'll show you what you value. 00:14:23:26 - 00:14:25:27 Yeah. And it's not the it's not. 00:14:25:27 - 00:14:27:09 It's not the victims, right? 00:14:27:09 - 00:14:32:02 It's the it's everything else that's supporting 00:14:32:05 - 00:14:35:14 our huge multi 00:14:35:16 - 00:14:39:16 national incarcerate and system that's making a few people wealthy, 00:14:39:16 - 00:14:42:16 providing jobs for a few, 00:14:42:17 - 00:14:45:10 but taking away so much opportunity for others. 00:14:45:10 - 00:14:48:17 I mean, that's why I'm so passionate about what you guys have done 00:14:48:17 - 00:14:51:17 and you've been a great supporter of the podcast, 00:14:51:22 - 00:14:55:16 but before that, even if you weren't, your work is very important 00:14:55:17 - 00:14:59:10 and it is the seminal civil rights issue of our time. 00:14:59:17 - 00:15:05:01 So something that we're going to talk about more in moral is 00:15:05:04 - 00:15:06:07 in technology. 00:15:06:07 - 00:15:09:09 Yeah, they say to have the greatest impact 00:15:09:09 - 00:15:12:28 you need to know the problem your solving, right? 00:15:12:28 - 00:15:13:22 Yeah. 00:15:13:22 - 00:15:17:00 And Lenore talked about this on our show. 00:15:17:03 - 00:15:19:14 We need to flip the narrative of the problems that we're solving. 00:15:19:14 - 00:15:21:20 Yeah, and 00:15:21:20 - 00:15:23:23 I don't want to focus too much on that because we're going to talk about that 00:15:23:23 - 00:15:28:01 more later tomorrow when we get more into our talk. 00:15:28:03 - 00:15:30:13 But I do want to talk about change, the narrative 00:15:30:13 - 00:15:33:04 that is a similar conversation. Yeah. 00:15:33:04 - 00:15:36:15 How do we change the narrative about crime 00:15:36:17 - 00:15:40:08 given that we have forces that are so effective marketing 00:15:40:10 - 00:15:45:06 so effective, that's simplifying a message, that's emotional? 00:15:45:09 - 00:15:48:09 How do we do that, given that? 00:15:48:11 - 00:15:50:04 So several things that we can do. 00:15:50:04 - 00:15:52:14 Why don't we think about mass incarceration? 00:15:52:14 - 00:15:54:22 You know, who played a key role in mass incarceration? 00:15:54:22 - 00:15:58:21 It was a law enforcement, you know, it was politicians and it was crime victims. 00:15:58:23 - 00:16:01:23 Yeah, but it was a very narrow 00:16:01:24 - 00:16:04:19 and it was noise and media played a key role in it. 00:16:04:19 - 00:16:08:16 And also thinking about, you know, we have to make our communities safer 00:16:08:16 - 00:16:12:21 right now with the kind of the kind of the call to action. 00:16:12:28 - 00:16:13:08 Right. 00:16:13:08 - 00:16:18:01 And we also listened to crime victims who supported those policies as well. 00:16:18:01 - 00:16:22:10 But one thing we haven't did for the past 40 years is actually 00:16:22:10 - 00:16:26:25 listen to the crime victims that are most impacted by violence. 00:16:26:27 - 00:16:27:05 Right. 00:16:27:05 - 00:16:30:13 So that's what our organization have been doing for the past ten years 00:16:30:15 - 00:16:33:13 of building this movement across the country and asking 00:16:33:13 - 00:16:36:26 crime victims what does safety look like to you? 00:16:36:29 - 00:16:39:19 And what crime victims are seeing across countries are crime 00:16:39:19 - 00:16:43:15 rates who are victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, parents 00:16:43:15 - 00:16:48:07 who've lost loved ones to homicide, victims of gun violence like myself. 00:16:48:08 - 00:16:52:17 For crime victims, safety is actually more trauma 00:16:52:17 - 00:16:56:29 recovery centers to help people heal when they have been victims. 00:16:57:02 - 00:17:01:23 Safety is about preventing violence from happening in the first place. 00:17:02:00 - 00:17:04:22 Safety is actually about getting people jobs. 00:17:04:22 - 00:17:07:21 So that they can help take care of their families. 00:17:07:21 - 00:17:12:04 Safety isn't about funding people in to this punishment system because 00:17:12:04 - 00:17:17:09 they have not worked for us for the past for funding, for life and funding. 00:17:17:11 - 00:17:19:29 Yeah, because I think the bigger part of what you're saying 00:17:19:29 - 00:17:23:20 and what often gets lost is people think that they're saying, okay, 00:17:23:23 - 00:17:25:11 is that mean you're being soft on crimes? 00:17:25:11 - 00:17:27:29 I mean, you're saying people there's no prison. 00:17:27:29 - 00:17:31:25 No, what we're saying is how we structure 00:17:31:28 - 00:17:33:20 rehabilitation is not a part of it. 00:17:33:20 - 00:17:35:03 Exactly. Right. Yeah. 00:17:35:03 - 00:17:39:18 Being able to come into society again, that's not thought to because of the 00:17:39:20 - 00:17:43:21 because once you make a mistake 00:17:43:23 - 00:17:45:17 in any way 00:17:45:17 - 00:17:49:05 and if it's a felony that affects everything for the rest of your life. 00:17:49:05 - 00:17:51:11 And there's and it's very hard for you to come back from that. 00:17:51:11 - 00:17:53:26 And you got to ask, are we going to we just throw away people here? 00:17:53:26 - 00:17:56:16 Yeah. And then what does that do? That creates more crime. 00:17:56:16 - 00:17:59:16 Yeah, but what I think we're up against right now, 00:17:59:18 - 00:18:04:14 what makes me nervous and I want to hear you talk about this is 00:18:04:17 - 00:18:06:01 there's obviously a rising crime right now. 00:18:06:01 - 00:18:09:23 I mean, or at least it seems relatively in some places, some places 00:18:09:23 - 00:18:12:23 homicide rates are down, some are just some are down. 00:18:12:28 - 00:18:15:12 But perception is reality. Yeah, right. 00:18:15:12 - 00:18:20:17 And right now, enough of the I've seen this play before in the eighties 00:18:20:17 - 00:18:21:07 and the nineties. 00:18:21:07 - 00:18:21:28 Yeah, right. 00:18:21:28 - 00:18:24:10 We've just started to talk about criminal justice reform. 00:18:24:10 - 00:18:25:22 We've just got people to understand 00:18:25:22 - 00:18:30:11 the enormous amount of money and resources and injustice that happens. 00:18:30:14 - 00:18:34:04 But I'm nervous about that other part of the brain that takes over from people 00:18:34:06 - 00:18:37:06 when they're when they're fearful. Yeah, 00:18:37:06 - 00:18:40:06 what can we do at this moment to keep people 00:18:40:09 - 00:18:43:27 focused on the long term safety and not settle for short 00:18:43:27 - 00:18:47:24 term results, that the short term efforts that we know will take us backwards? 00:18:47:28 - 00:18:49:03 One thing we've got to continue, 00:18:49:03 - 00:18:51:17 we've got to listen to the crime victims that are most impacted by. 00:18:51:17 - 00:18:51:25 Right. 00:18:51:25 - 00:18:55:03 Continue to listen to about what safety looks like to them. 00:18:55:10 - 00:18:59:02 Also, we have to make sure we're uplift in some safety solutions. 00:18:59:03 - 00:18:59:08 Right. 00:18:59:08 - 00:19:00:01 The things that help 00:19:00:01 - 00:19:03:29 stop the cycles of, as I mentioned, the trauma recovery centers. 00:19:03:29 - 00:19:06:14 We started with one trauma recovery center in California. 00:19:06:14 - 00:19:10:07 Now we have 52 of these centers across the country 00:19:10:07 - 00:19:13:24 that are in communities for people to get access to free mental health 00:19:13:24 - 00:19:16:26 services, free cars and feet therapy support as well. 00:19:16:26 - 00:19:20:23 So we got to build this infrastructure of mental health and victim services 00:19:20:23 - 00:19:23:14 in community. That's one thing that we have to do. 00:19:23:14 - 00:19:26:20 The second thing that we have to do, we have to mobilize. 00:19:26:20 - 00:19:31:11 I mean, across the country, every movement starts with the people. 00:19:31:11 - 00:19:35:10 So that's why we are mobilizing crime victims and people with past convictions. 00:19:35:10 - 00:19:39:23 These two constituencies that are most impacted by the criminal 00:19:39:26 - 00:19:41:06 justice, we've got to mobilize them. 00:19:41:06 - 00:19:43:15 We've got to build their power. We've got to share their stories. 00:19:43:15 - 00:19:46:13 And we got to train them to be leaders and advocates. 00:19:46:13 - 00:19:50:17 We got to train them to talk to the media to go to editorial board. 00:19:50:18 - 00:19:50:25 Right. 00:19:50:25 - 00:19:54:02 To talk about what your safety priorities are, you know, 00:19:54:02 - 00:19:57:25 to go meet with local reporters, to talk about what your safety priorities are. 00:19:57:25 - 00:20:02:09 We have to continue driving this message and uplifting these safety 00:20:02:11 - 00:20:03:24 solutions across the country. 00:20:03:24 - 00:20:04:25 If not, we'll go back 00:20:04:25 - 00:20:09:05 to the eighties and nineties, which for us haven't made our communities safer. 00:20:09:05 - 00:20:12:02 No, at all. Doesn't didn't work 00:20:12:04 - 00:20:12:22 as well. 00:20:12:22 - 00:20:16:18 Look, I got a couple of final rapidfire questions for you. 00:20:16:21 - 00:20:19:14 What does legacy look like for you, man? 00:20:19:14 - 00:20:22:21 Great question for me, legacy look like. 00:20:22:21 - 00:20:26:19 So we have about 400,000 members of CROSSFIRE 00:20:26:19 - 00:20:27:22 for Safety and Justice at the time. 00:20:27:22 - 00:20:30:12 That legacy look like we need to be a million members 00:20:30:12 - 00:20:32:17 strong in the next few years. 00:20:32:17 - 00:20:35:26 I talked about only having 52 trauma recovery 00:20:35:29 - 00:20:39:06 center legacy look like for me is that every community will become members. 00:20:39:08 - 00:20:40:17 So how can people become members? 00:20:40:17 - 00:20:47:00 So go to our website www.CSSJ.org that what if you have crimes www.CSSJ.org 00:20:47:06 - 00:20:49:27 or if you are incarcerated so I mean join us and membership is free 00:20:49:27 - 00:20:51:02 if you are living with a past 00:20:51:02 - 00:20:54:19 makes you want to be part of a community, go to the timedone.org 00:20:54:19 - 00:20:59:05 So build power through membership advocating for more service as a resource 00:20:59:05 - 00:21:03:10 and do what we've been doing for the past few years is changing state laws 00:21:03:12 - 00:21:06:27 state by state in uplift, in better safety solutions. 00:21:06:29 - 00:21:09:23 That's awesome. 00:21:09:26 - 00:21:11:09 If you had a theme 00:21:11:09 - 00:21:15:18 for your life, hmm, what would that theme say and why? 00:21:15:20 - 00:21:19:13 It'd be a saying theme 00:21:19:15 - 00:21:21:11 is something that my college basketball 00:21:21:11 - 00:21:24:22 coach used to say to us when we should be running those sprints, Right. 00:21:24:25 - 00:21:26:20 You know, running these drills. 00:21:26:20 - 00:21:29:28 He always used to say, You're never as tired as you think you are. 00:21:30:00 - 00:21:30:27 You're never tired. 00:21:30:27 - 00:21:33:17 You think you're never tired as you think you are. Right. 00:21:33:17 - 00:21:36:09 And so we're those you know, if you are a student, right? 00:21:36:09 - 00:21:40:27 You know, you tired as heck from homework and and preparing for says you know 00:21:40:29 - 00:21:45:03 keep going right for survivors you've been through a experience of victimization. 00:21:45:04 - 00:21:48:19 If you've been incarcerated, you can overcome so many different things. 00:21:48:19 - 00:21:50:11 So for me, this I that's my motto. 00:21:50:11 - 00:21:52:19 What keeps me going is you know what? 00:21:52:19 - 00:21:52:26 You know, 00:21:52:26 - 00:21:56:23 despite how hard it can be, you know, we're never too tired as we think we are. 00:21:56:23 - 00:21:57:13 And we always got 00:21:57:13 - 00:22:01:11 we all got something left in us to continue fighting, to continue pushing. 00:22:01:14 - 00:22:04:00 I love it. All right. Final question. 00:22:04:00 - 00:22:08:01 You have three members of the board of your Advisors 00:22:08:01 - 00:22:11:17 for Life or business or community advocacy. 00:22:11:17 - 00:22:14:16 Tell me who these three people are and why, who you got. 00:22:14:16 - 00:22:17:25 So you got some good questions. Come to me and, 00:22:17:28 - 00:22:18:15 you know, if 00:22:18:15 - 00:22:21:26 you had ideal board members, right. 00:22:21:26 - 00:22:24:26 You know, think of someone like Oprah. 00:22:24:28 - 00:22:29:00 You know, we think of crime and violence that's happened to African-American women 00:22:29:02 - 00:22:31:21 in this country and the lack of support. 00:22:31:21 - 00:22:34:06 So being having someone like Oprah, Right. 00:22:34:06 - 00:22:37:23 To help uplift what folks are going through in communities, 00:22:37:23 - 00:22:43:09 but also being able to help empower others to give back to this movement. 00:22:43:09 - 00:22:47:17 You know, I think about folks like LeBron James who come from the city of act 00:22:47:17 - 00:22:49:05 actor in a community that has been devastated 00:22:49:05 - 00:22:53:02 by violence as well, being able to have LeBron join the charge. 00:22:53:02 - 00:22:53:10 Right. 00:22:53:10 - 00:22:57:26 To help us build more of these trauma recovery centers across the country 00:22:57:26 - 00:23:02:20 in a third is just like the average person who wants to get involved. 00:23:02:22 - 00:23:05:04 You know, whoever that can be, a doctor can be a lawyer, 00:23:05:04 - 00:23:06:24 it can be an activist in the community, 00:23:06:24 - 00:23:10:18 like someone who wants to make this country better than it was before. 00:23:10:18 - 00:23:15:02 Because 2024 is a critical moment for criminal justice and public 00:23:15:02 - 00:23:18:09 safety bosses is a critical moment for our country as well. 00:23:18:10 - 00:23:20:01 It is. It's a it's critical. 00:23:20:01 - 00:23:22:01 Tell us who we are, what our values are. 00:23:22:01 - 00:23:25:11 So, as my brother, say, good to have you on and of course, great. 00:23:25:13 - 00:23:27:26 Thank you for having me here. So will join you again. 00:23:27:26 - 00:23:33:23 Midwest 2023 here at the Digital Futures Building at the University of Cincinnati. 00:23:33:26 - 00:23:38:25 Rob Richardson here, CEO of Disrupt Art, also host of the Disruption Now podcast. 00:23:38:25 - 00:23:41:07 We've had Aswad Thomas on our show. 00:23:41:07 - 00:23:45:01 He is the VP of the the Alliance for Safety and Justice. 00:23:45:01 - 00:23:48:23 You can find more about them in the in the in the intro on the comments. 00:23:48:23 - 00:23:51:08 We're going to put all the links so you can learn more about them. 00:23:51:08 - 00:23:54:11 Obviously, you can also learn more about what we do at Disrupt Art 00:23:54:18 - 00:23:58:24 we use the power of entertainment to empower creators and also empower brands. 00:23:58:26 - 00:24:02:25 But we're also about social impact and that's why we do everything that we do. 00:24:02:28 - 00:24:05:11 We appreciate all that you do. Thank you for listening. 00:24:05:11 - 00:24:06:04 We'll see you next time.