It really goes down to the mindset of that every individual child has the ability to their biggest potential and really making sure that they see each child and each student as having the strengths and the abilities to achieve what they're able to and making sure that they support a system that allows and enables educators to do that for them Welcome to Disruption Now! I'm your host, the moderator, Rob Richardson.
With me today, we're doing We have to guests you know, we normally don't do two guests, but got to disrupt it a little bit. So we will today. My first guest is Ryan MacDonald, who is senior program associate with the Council of Chief State School Officers. Also with me is a vice president from Knowledge Works. She's the vice president of Impact and Improvement with Knowledge Works and is based in Boston.
But, you know, we have a big Cincinatti presence here, too, so we're honored to have them both on the show. Welcome, both of you. Thank you for having me. We're looking forward to the conversation. No looking forward to having you and really talking about how we can improve education. It's the one of the most important things that we do in our society. And we need to constantly innovate, constantly improve.
And so I'm always interested and I know our listeners are always interested in the innovation that's happening within the space and how we can improve it to really impact more lives. And so just honored to have you both on. I know you are both kind of co collaborating on a project. If you can talk about a little bit about what you what you two are doing together and what you see as the vision going forward for that. I'll start with you Rebecca.
Sure. So Ryan and I came together almost six or seven years ago now in response to something that both of our organizations, we're hearing in different parts of the world where more and more folks were starting to pay attention to the research on how students actually learn, what motivates them, what engages them, and what we were calling student centered learning.
And educators and innovators kind of at that cutting edge were saying, oh, we love this, but what is the this what does it look like? And at the same time, Ryan's organization, which focuses on the chiefs, so the systems level, the folks in each of the states were saying, well, if we want to support this, what would the policy be? What would the regulation be? And because it was it was pretty brand new. Again, this was starting 10 years ago.
So our organizations came together in about seven years ago to try to develop a set of what we've called educator competencies, so that groups of educators, school districts, states that are trying to move in this more transformative direction, have a roadmap, have a set of ways of saying, oh, this is what it means to truly be learner centered, to truly build collaboration systems, schools that are meeting the learner where they need and are helping point them towards the future
of of where they want to go. And the reason we're kind of here and back, you know, we said it seven years ago. We just came out with a whole refresh of the competencies. So maybe I'll kick it to Ryan to talk about why we thought this was the time now and kind of what we built into the new version and why we're really excited to talk about it.
Yeah, thanks, Rebecca. Yeah, I think it was almost two years ago we came back together to reexamine kind of what had happened with the educator competencies. First, to really just understand we had released them at that point around five years ago and just wanted to know, like, how have they been used in the field, how the educators and communities been able to utilize them and able to help their transformation towards a more student centered approach.
But then also, we had an understanding that the field had begun to focus and understand the importance of directly talking about equity and the importance of approaching education through an equitable lens. So we wanted to make sure to go back and look, how can we pull out and make sure that equities at the forefront. I think in the original copy it was there. But nonetheless, I think you were looking at it through a fully equitable lens. You might not be able to see it at the forefront.
So we wanted to make sure that we brought that up in the in the work. And then the third just wanted to understand how can we better support educators in the system, in the field to utilize them in a more and more actionable ways. So thinking about whether or other ways we can package and put the companies together to provide a more usable resource for the field.
So we went through a process over two years of doing some intense stakeholder engagement and doing bunches of focus groups with a wide variety of stakeholders and including teachers, educators, folks that have used the document itself previously, folks that hadn't before state leaders, but then also really equity and civil rights oriented organizations and individuals who could really help elevate that equity within the document and also learners themselves, the students that are
actually experiencing this type of teaching and learning to make sure that we're portraying and putting forth what what do they want to experience in their learning and make sure that their voices are in the document.
And so in October, we were able to kind of culminate that with a release of the new refresh, educate our competencies to hopefully be able to continue to provide this field support and thinking through kind of what is that, particularly for a team of educators and school buildings, and then support the broader system to ensure that the system aligns and our team what they want to do, that types of teaching and learning.
So how are we defining equity and how and you know, because we equity is a it's a good term, but it's it's very difficult sometimes when you are when you have equity. And then I think it's even that much harder to make it part of the culture. So how are you guys going about that? Because it's it's much easier said than done. Hundred percent. And it's one of those kind of learnings that we did between those two versions in that first version.
We put lots of good stuff in there, but we actually realized we never defined equity. We just as as Ryan said, like if you are already equity minded, maybe you would see it in the new version. What we did is we adapted the National Equity Project's definition because they had already they've done such amazing work in this field for so long. And they have a specific definition where they look at equity specifically through an education lens. So that's kind of was our starting point.
But then what we did from there was we looked at all of the specific skills, attributes, mindsets that then could fit under that, because just because you have sort of a high a high level definition doesn't necessarily tell educators, well, what do I do on a day to day? And so that's kind of what's built into the competencies themselves. And so what we did in this version is we actually coded them.
So in the paper version, there are the downloadable version, there's little tags, and then the digital version, you can search just on that. So it's really what you want to know is how can I be learner centered and equity minded? You can kind of toggle it in our interactive version and you can see the competencies that just focus on that. And just I just found it. I can't I can't recite it by heart.
But what we the definition from national equity projects that we use is that educational equity means that each child receives what they need to develop their unlimited academic and social potential.
And working towards equity in schools involves ensuring equally high outcomes for all participants in the system, removing the predictability of success or failure that correlates with any social, economic or cultural factor, interrupting equity in equitable practices, examining biases, creating inclusive, multicultural school environments, and discovering and cultivating unique gifts, talents and interest of each and every member of that learning community.
That's a long definition no longer moved everybody in academics. That's why I don't have it memorized. Yeah, you should look it up in the paper. I knew we had done it. Right. But, you know, and it's it's one of the things that we both are proud of and get criticized for in the confidentially is we are really thorough. There's a lot in those competencies. It's a big, deep, rich document.
But part of what we've tried to do is break it down so that there's lots and lots of different ways, different educators at different parts of their journey and different roles can use them. So you don't have to sort of start on page one and go all the way to the end. There's lots of different ways to interact with them, to test your own practice, to learn. So and that definition is just one of them. You may not tackle all those pieces.
Of equity at once. Yeah. But at least you have that to start thinking about. So I think it's probably more than you asked for. I thought being equity, having an equity mindset, you know, I think it it requires I mean, the definition said a lot, but essentially I look at it as a way that you have to learn how to teach in a way that is not necessarily straight across the board universal. And you have to give.
You have to give tools that are specific to the situation, environment, a context that you're dealing with them and not just say you can have one way and one way of teaching it, and that's it. And expect that that's going to work for all kids in every situation. Right. That's kind of my view from what you said. And in the summarizer, Brian, I want to get to you and actually ask you to jump in. And I want to ask you this question here, too.
How do we get from the chief of staff point of view, how do we get equity minded kind of a culture to be there? Because it's one thing to say equity is important. Have a check to check the box statement. We believe in equity. But when you look at how how things are run, you know, there's not equity in and in things, but we say we love equity and we say these things. But if you look at a lot of organizations, you don't see equitable results in much of how things are applied.
So how do you have that? How do you challenge your chief of staff and folks to really have that equity mindset? Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Your previous point is really you know when we think around kind of understanding each kid as individuals. Like that's what we're talking about when we're talking about kind of student center.
Personalized learning is understanding that that one size fits all kind of industrial model where there's the teacher at the front of the classroom giving the instruction and everyone's going to move on to their next class, but really understand that every child shows up in a classroom with their own individual strengths, the things they need to work on, their interest in supporting a system that allows educators to tap into that and create the learning environments for that.
But when when it comes to a kind of setting and understanding how to get an equity mindset, I think with our work and the center. So we really encourage state education agency folks and the folks that lead them to really start internally and understand. What does equity mean to you at the state? Every state is individual.
Every state brings their own history, their own understanding, but really understand kind of what does equity mean for your state and for your staff and really do the learning to kind of understand what does equity mean within your state?
A state's education is going to think they have all the answers, but unless they start to really take the time to understand what is equity mean, where are the inequities within their states that they see through not only the test scores, but just in proportionate support and surrounding resources. They're making sure that things are kind of what is the state of their state and thinking about kind of how their agency can better support a more equitable learning environment.
It really goes down to the mindset of that every individual child has the ability to their biggest potential and really making sure that they see each child and each student as having the strengths and the abilities to achieve what they're able to and making sure that they support a system that allows and enables educators to do that for them or with them, I should say. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Did you want to say something Rebercca?
Well, I was just going to share a little bit of a personal story, because you were you were kind enough to kick us off earlier, sharing a little of your background. And I think it sort of complements what Ryan is talking about. And so my only sibling has Down syndrome, and I grew up in a school system that was actually really, really well equipped to meet her very specific needs.
I was kind of on the other end of the spectrum, you know, I'm the smarty pants researcher, you know, had lots and lots of kind of individual drive and motivation and very type A and the school system was pretty well equipped to also serve me. It was those huge percentage of students in the middle that in our particular school system, they just kind of grouped in the middle and got very kind of mediocre kind of baseline, like everybody kind of got the same thing.
And so from a very early age, I was really attuned to how well my sister, even with her profound disability, and I arrived in a school system that was able to meet what we need and how fast numbers of kids were just kind of bored and disengaged. And so, you know, no doubt that that influenced the research that I later started being both a proponent of and being around student centeredness.
Because one thing that we have just absolutely blasted out of the water at this point, there is no it is a myth that there is an average student. Every single student has a diverse set of needs and backgrounds and interests and passions.
And so from the research standpoint that I look most at, from the policy standpoint that Ryan looks most at, we're really trying to think about how do we kind of craft the systems that are addressed, the fact that every single learner has the potential to learn at a very high button, to learn at a very high level, if they're given the kinds of learner centered approaches that we're hoping more and more folks will use. As time goes on. Absolutely.
I mean, I think that's you make you make such a great point from a couple of things. I mean, looking at how students learn. I shared the story with you earlier and I've shared it with listeners a lot of times. I won't go into the great depths, but a lot of people know I have ADHD. And and in elementary school, I struggled a whole lot. But, you know, eventually a light bulb went off despite a teacher and some counselors telling me I wouldn't go to school, I wouldn't go to college.
I should say I did and was very successful at it. But I do know that, you know, back then how they diagnosed ADHD, you were diagnosed as a disability like yourself is like you couldn't do versus a learning difference. Like it's I'm better at listening to books and I can absorb the. Better than a lot of people can reading it cover to cover.
But as long as you're learning it, then we need to give that to both teachers and students the tools to learn in the way that is receptive to the students instead of really holding on to this is the way we've always done it. People have to read a book, and that's the only way you can learn it. That is not factual. You can you can read. You can listen to a book read audible and not take notes. And I can regurgitate what happened. Much better than I can.
Reading the paperback now, some people are the opposite way. But but now we definitely have to we have to teach models that where people can pivot and not necessarily hold on to what worked for them or what they they thought was the right way. And just pivoting and really disrupting how we teach is very, very, very important. I would say second back to our early point with when we talk about equity, and it's been unfortunate that some things I think have gotten politicized.
It shouldn't be politicized. I'll put science in that category, then I'm next going to put education. And when I look at it and I think, frankly, why it's hard to deal with talking about equity is because now, you know, critical race theory and things like that have been havee become a political football when they shouldn't be critical. Race to me involves critical thinking.
So we're saying we're going to look and understand race from a critical perspective, not from a simplistic point of view or the way we've traditionally taught. So I think as we talk about doing equity, we have to reason why it's tough. And I think why we have to have it as a culture is we have to have a culture where people can be challenged, specifically challenged some of their traditional beliefs. And that's very difficult for people because we've now tied it in.
I think the political environment has done no favors to us, but we've tied this in to like this is part of your identity, like I must be against this if I vote this way and nobody could explain why, I just have to be against it. All right. So like and I think this is a huge problem. I don't know how you guys are tackling this, because you obviously have to work in a bipartisan manner in order to get things accomplished.
But I find I become very concerned about the way politics is entering education in a way that people don't even want to address issues that we should be talking about. I'm curious as to how you approach these conversations and how we can hopefully change this narrative. I do. I do find it quite disturbing. So I know that was a challenging statement.
I said a lot, but I'll turn it over, you guys, and just really just get your perspective on how do we how do we navigate in this situation knowing how toxic the climate is when you talk about anything with race inequity, but you still have to you have to talk and deal with it because it's the reality of where we live and where we are now.
I'll say from this episode, I mean, we represent all the chiefs in the country, and what we try to do is be that kind of our executive editor often talked about like that friend next to them, helping them walk through their journey and really be a resource for them to make sure that they can trust us when they come to us, that they can trust the information we're providing them and what we have and invested in working around equity more.
We built out an equity access team at the council, and we have a chief equity officer and have been running like an anti-racism webinar series for them and really helped to kind of be a learning organization for them to help them understand the kind of history around the intersection of racism and our discussions with them and really be a support to them to help be a resource for them as they move forward and work individually.
You know, with the chiefs in that these are really kind of help them and think through, kind of expand their thinking. We do a lot of posing questions to them, to them, and to explore and really think that really helps to try to push their thinking around kind of what's happening within their respective communities.
I'm curious like so Rebecca when people come in, because I know there's because, look, I've dealt with it on the university level and I've had multiple ways of communicating it, but I always did communicate the need for equity. I had to happen. How do you deal with it when you get that resistance, when you know what you're doing objectively is based on the research? But humans aren't, myself included, aren't always rational. We're going to go back to our our old biases and beliefs.
And so I'm sure you've had a situation where someone sees this that they feel like you're doing something from a political lens when it's based on research and what's actually best for the kids. How do you approach that situation when it happens? I know. I know what's happened. Oh, yes, indeed. I am laughing because we're in the middle of like three of those situations. I'm sure in real time what you could say. There's not a confidential. Yeah, not let let's just say we
because we work in. Likewise. Where, you know, we don't cover all 50 states the way CXO does, but we are in very deep partnership with blue states, red states, purple states. And, you know, political football, I think is the right phrase. We say it a lot right now, you know. So a couple of things, Rob I mean, we really we as an organization have been on our own journey to better understand our own diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, both external positioning and internally.
How do we support staff? How do we talk to each other? What kinds of systems do we have? So we're we're in the middle of a pretty deep journey ourselves. And what that's doing is it's giving us more clarity on our values. And what do we who who do we want to be as an organization in the field? And so what we try to do can't always do it, but we try to start from that position and say, this is who we are, this is what we believe in. This is the kinds of education transformation we're working for.
If you want to work with us, just know that that's what you're going to get. Right. And so in some ways, because we're talking about concepts like competency based education and performance assessment and sort of all these wonderful ways of starting to understand learning that we think are apolitical but become very political. You know, so from a certain standpoint, we're trying to navigate that by saying, here's who we are. Yeah, this is this is what we stand for. Now, we have lots of love.
We've been around for over 20 years now. So lots of folks have known us in different places from different ways. So so they know you get to ask those questions. You know, and I you know, I've been writing about and speaking about student centered research for years. And I don't always speak to, you know, audience like you said, like Bill, I've gotten will any challenge. I mean, you're going to and I think you're going to it's going to continue more.
What I tend to do is, you know, especially if it's somebody I know. But even if it's not, I try to get an understanding of where do they base their values on. There are some people that you that you can't agree with that they're just there like but generally speaking, people have some basis of values that they follow. And I work to try to get them to understand that this is coming from their values perspective. This is not coming from a different values perspective.
But then then then you follow. And generally, that's been successful, having people understand where they come from and communicate and just get them to really just think about it, not necessarily attacking them to say like your race is your bias, but getting them to understand their perspective and then seeing this perspective in a way that reflects their values, often works.
That's that's usually what I do when I deal with people that have a different perspective or just automatically are, you know, against critical race theory without actually understanding what critical race theory is, because I think we have to work individually to get ourselves past this collective madness that is going on, because it is collective madness that is going on right now in our society. And I think a lot of it is fueled by how social media and things work at this time.
But I do think it's very important. Let let's switch the topic a little bit and go to actually I want to talk about related to that topic, but a little bit to talk about the pandemic and the effect that's had on your work and how you've seen that kind of play out. So just in general, the pandemic, I think, has done several things. I think it's it's created a a new normal in some ways in terms of how humans and how we interact. I think there will always be an urge to have face to face.
But I also think now, you know, what we're doing now digitally is now commonplace. It's just as common to to have a zoom meeting as it is to if you need to look up information to Google like a zoom and Google are like now terms, we can kind of have together. That's because of the pandemic now. And people have meetings now. I'm sure the whole policies have changed in terms of how people meet people. Now, thought you couldn't do that. You had to meet in person.
You had to have some strategy meetings in person, you know. So we've learned. We've changed, but education, I'm sure, has had some challenges. What have you what have you seen as the challenges and the opportunities in this moment with the pandemic, with the work that you guys are doing?
I think one of the things we've seen and even connected to that educator Comess, is an understanding that the current system, like it was a stress test in a way that the pandemic and what we've learned is that really this type of model doesn't work, can't work. And so we've seen a real interest from states, but also around kind of looking at education in a new way. And I think that's what the kind of benefit has been.
It exposed the inequities within our system to everyone and really force everyone to look at kind of how we're doing school and seeing the challenges that this model has taken. And what we've seen and what I've heard from the folks I work with at our schools, that we're already on this model that understood and empowered their learners to own their learning.
They have the relationships with their students already and saw them as individuals and understood what they show up in the classroom and that they were able to transition to this model to have this kind of hybrid remote learning model a lot more smoothly than some of the more traditional education schools.
And so we want to take advantage of that and highlight that and illustrate that there is a new model that's out there that's been around for a while that state school districts can look to as enabling more empowerment of their learners so they don't have to be in front of them at all times and know that they're learning. But also that builds those strong relationships with a learner.
And even through the work, we finish this project through the end of the pandemic and had this shift and integrated kind of the importance of social emotional learning in the competencies, because we saw it as such and elevated our focus that school and the system we're looking at, but also not just the social emotional effects of the limits, but the educators themselves and ensuring that they're supportive and are able to kind of show up their best selves in order
to support the learning of their students or really kind of exposing the inequities that were already there and that were hidden for some people. But yeah, exactly said that. Right. And for some people. Because they didn't see it, correct? Exactly. So it really exposed the system. And I think the hope is that the field is looking for kind of a new system. And luckily, there have been folks that have been working in that field for a while that can point to it.
And so folks aren't just starting from scratch now that we're slowly moving out of the pandemic. Yeah, I think, you know, Rebecca, as we look at this year, some some see this as a loss year for a lot of students right in there. And, you know, personally, my home with son is even even with resources, difficult depending on who you are. Like remote is challenging for some kids. Some kids remote is just bad for it.
I mean, you can have the best engagement you can, but some kids just absolutely remote is just not it. You know, but that being said, if you don't have resources and you are already challenged, as as Ryan said, you saw a lot you saw a really dramatic kind of setback for a lot of people. What do you see as our opportunity here like that going forward? Like what? What, what, what, what, what gives you hope that we're going to get better from this moment and actually grow?
Because we know of the drastic kind of things that happen. I'm sure that I'm sure you've seen the numbers. And there was this was this was a this was a really challenging year for learning for everyone. Like what what can we take away? Like if there's something specifically you can point to that some of the work that you guys is doing could help folks. I would love to hear about what you see as a kind of a hopeful course going forward from this moment with the pandemic.
So I see a lot to hope for and a lot of what Ryan was just saying it. So we've been at this work again for close to a decade, and this was a pretty massive reset. And yeah, that's another story. You know, there's a little bit you know, there's that little piece of me that's kind of like told you so.
So like if we had been paying attention to individual learner needs to social, emotional, to relationships, to the whole there's the horrible lack of equity in our schools, things that Ryan and I and our organizations have been talking about, screaming about, writing about, researching about for years. We would have been in a very different place in this pandemic.
And so I while the numbers are staggering and horrifying right now, there's the hope and the optimism I have is that there are fewer people who think it's OK to go back to normal. There's a lot more talking about a new normal or how are we going to reinvent or what have we learned from this pandemic moment that we want to keep?
Because things like paying attention to social, emotional, paying attention to relationships, I mean, there there has been no bigger kind of proof point at this point that would have been possible given the massive disruption of so many students lives, parents lives. And for so long we've been saying look at how different every learner is. And we all have now or many case studies. I mean, you have children who are home.
I had to siblings my two children who are siblings, same parents, same household like super different experience of remote learning and pandemic and what each one of them needed and how they each found ways to socialize. And we were extremely fortunate that they were able to adapt to remote setting. But then kids, two houses down in a similar school system could not adapt to the remote setting.
So while it means we have a just unbelievable set of needs of students and trauma and academics to figure out, I don't think anybody can argue anymore that there's this oh, if we just all give everybody the same thing, it'll be OK. Yeah. And with that and no one's going to argue about how valuable I don't think at least at least anytime soon, about how valuable teachers are. And you have to you had to go to be a teacher for yourself. Oh, my God. Like this is work.
And as Ryan said, I mean, if you had a relationship with a school and with a teacher, you tended to do better. You tended to stay connected. So why wouldn't we pay attention to things like relationships? Why wouldn't we privilege those as much as academics because they are so tightly connected?
And one one more thing that gave me a little bit of hope, and we don't we don't have enough numbers about this, but talking to friends in the field whose school networks served some of our most marginalized students and just, you know, some of the anecdotes we were able to pull out of the field is for some youth who going to school was already a traumatic experience, who are already facing bias and cultural negativity every day.
For some of those students, being able to disengage for that gave them the time that they'd never had to actually celebrate their own learning and learning in their own way because some student it was better for for some it was better. And we have a not there again. I'm I'm eager for those right now. I know, again, it does not negate the many, many, many losses, the trauma of the time, the losses of relationships.
But I think it just points to the fact that one size is never going to see exactly if it's the opportunity for there should be some remote learning opportunities for for some students in some ways, because if it works, do that time, they are improving their remote offerings. We are seeing states that are looking at a more competency based framework so that you're not not all about learning loss.
I'm trying very hard to avoid that term, because what you know against who benchmarked against what I mean, we need to really understand. That's a fair point. What did you learn and how do we help you get back on track? And so exactly something that a competency based system can do a lot more than one standardized test. And either you met it or you didn't. I mean, let's find out until they get standardized tests. You're preaching to the converted here. I was horrible at standardized tests.
Ironically, I got to law school Right. Right. Once I got to law school, eventually I actually I failed the bar the first time. The second time I got one of the highest scores in the state. I figured out the hack in my. Brain to figure out how to do standardized test, but that that's better law. I did, but I didn't make exactally I didn't learn better. I figured out how to take a test better. And that's not learning.
We have to we have to really get around like I can I can have a whole podcast about standardized tests. And we're seeing some openings for that conversation, too. So that's another place that I'm feeling hopeful coming out of the pandemic is some realization that maybe those tests. And we absolutely we need to know benchmarking. We need to know. Oh, yeah. Well, there's multiple ways to do kind of standardized way. But let's open up that definition a little bit more to really think about.
How do you measure learning? Oh, absolutely. And you know what? When you talk about learning loss and I want to move on to something else, I think that I think my biggest concern is for kids that were just starting high school and they had a really bad year in terms of their grades. How is that going to be viewed from colleges? And to me, colleges and universities need to probably get some grace for this year for that for twenty twenty, twenty one. And just say this was just a unique time.
And so I'm hoping that that's that's going to be part of the consideration. And that's really what I that's that's my biggest concern, because the other stuff, if you're not in high school, it's probably you can probably you'll be OK is not being counted against you. But when you did poorly in this year, that counts against you in a cumulative way. So that's kind of my only God. That's my only concern as one of my biggest concerns. And so how is that going to be viewed?
I mean, the other concern I have is what about the emotional component? Let's dive into that a little bit, because I'm interested to hear about that. You know, there was the emotional component of of not being able to be around. People were tribal by nature, so that that did something to do something to me. So I imagine it did something to kids. And then, you know, if you're black in this country, you or brown and you and you saw what was happening, this is not new to you.
It's been happening all the time, but in a way that was just more transparent and just kind of because even when you have things that are happening in an unjust way on a regular basis, people like to escape from it, not to think about it all the time, because then that becomes your only reality. But when things happened with George Floyd, Amed Aubrey, Brianna Taylor, so on and so forth, I can go through a lot of names. And I mean, it was really traumatic, traumatic for me.
And I imagine it's traumatic for our kids in our schools that are going through this. So how did you what did you learn from this moment and how did you talk to your you know, for Ryan, for your point of view? How did you talk to the chief of staff?
And then from you know, Rebecca, how did you figure out how to put that into a policy perspective in dealing with this emotional trauma, just dealing with this emotional trauma in general, and how that was something you could learn from or expand from, given what just happened? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, work really put an emphasis on, you know, identifying and talking about that.
Our system needs to talk about kind of what is what is and identify both the macro trauma that occurs, but then also the micro trauma for individual students.
And so I think throughout that kind of this project we worked on and throughout is really putting an emphasis on the importance of that social emotional relationship that educators have with their students and making sure that they understand kind of who they are as individuals, how can they bring their community into the classroom and kind of making sure that they're building an environment that a student is does feel safe and feel seen, because we know from the science
of learning and development that in order for a student to be able to learn best, they need to feel safe and secure and have adults around them that believe and support them.
So, you know, with our work, we're just trying to emphasize the importance of the kind of well-being for students and putting out resources that will allow states to work with districts in the school to think about how to create environments where there is more well-being for their students and their educators, and to ensure that as we move through this moment to understand the trauma that we've all collectively felt and then some far greater than others, to really understand
how to create an environment that well, as we continue to move back into the classrooms or think about learning in different ways, that puts an emphasis on the child and educator as well being.
I think we've seen obviously it's a lot more focused on academic and academic success except but we've seen that we're starting already, but I think really accelerated during the pandemic, a real emphasis on kind of the students well-being and ensuring you have a system in a school that supports kind of the whole child and ensures that they're able to thrive to their best ability in an environment that is supportive of them and their individual needs, their strengths,
and kind of kind of what makes them them. Yeah. Rebecca. So I think what Ryan said was just spot on, and I think for us and in some ways in particular with this project, it. It enabled us to. To be more clear and transparent than we had in the past. Yeah. Look at what you're saying is no different from what I experienced either, and I'll say it more and more, frankly. Right. When talking to white Americans, it was easier to have a conversation about race. Exactly.
And from the understand that this is not something that I was overexaggerating, making up, because people it's hard to deny it . Right. So no matter where you came from. So it became impossible. So the conversations I've never had more conversations with my white counterparts about race. And I'm hoping that there is a moment where we actually like we we expand and have real impact to where we are. I'm happy to see people with their diversity statements.
I'm happy to see people say black lives matter, kind of. But at the end of day life, what really matters to me more is what policy changes are you going to do? What practices are you going to change? How are you going to make sure we have more equitable results across the board that I care about, that more words do matter. So I'm not going to say they don't matter. But what what really matters is substance to back up what you say as well.
And from organizational standpoint, what it I mean, naming it again, we earlier were talking about definitions, not just kind of set. I mean, equity at this point has almost become almost a fluff term. I mean, I would. But but really naming. What do you mean and for whom and where? And then in and of my sphere here, it's then. Well, then how do you measure the impact of it?
How do you surface it in a way that we can show what is happening to black and brown bodies so that we can show if we are thinking about student centered learning, we can show that, in fact, it is helping to close gaps and open opportunities rather than exacerbate them. Yeah. So for for, you know, from a very sort of organizational operational standpoint, it has given us more clarity and more necessity of naming it and being clear about what are we going to do about it.
And so, you know, and then I also think it's sort of a very personal level. You know, I I'm a white person. I did not experience it personally, but had children who are of an age to understand the news. And so there were daily conversations. There were. How are their schools handling it?
So and again, this was something that, you know, in in twelve years of having one child and nine of it like it was it has never been this explicit, which I take as a really positive sign, because if you can't talk about it and you can't name it and you can't measure it, then you're never going to be able to change. Absolutely. Absolutely not. Yeah. When you avoid a problem, the problem grows. If you try to avoid dealing with your suffering, your suffering increases. You don't.
You got it. You got to deal with it. And this has been the single biggest challenge with dealing with race and equity in this country is that the way to address it is to not deal with it or pretend as if it doesn't exist, which always makes the problem worse. You got you got to you got to really have an acknowledgment of the issue before you can address it.
And I think that's been a major problem for us collectively as Americans has been our one of our greatest, if not the greatest kind of our block. We've just had that kind of it's been like our emotional block that we just don't want to deal with. But but the pandemic, you know, made people deal with a lot of things that they previously had ignored.
And so I do think there is hope in this opportunity that people can see this moment and want to make sure that we are better for it and not and not repeat some of the same inequities and systems that have failed us in the past. Final question as we kind of wrap up here, what does what you have your vision of success? However, we can bring this out 10, 15 years from now. What does success look like?
Every educator in every system in the country is using the educator competencies for personalized learning center. I mean, I think, you know, I hate to be Pollyanna ish, but if we were doing what is in those competencies, we would have a very, very different system of education with very different outcomes.
In particular, to marginalize students and just, you know that and ensure that every student just have a positive experience at school that enables them to develop themselves to their fullest individual.
And I think if educators and our system move towards this more personalized system that emphasizes individuals with their strengths, what they need to work on their their backgrounds, their communities, more students will have positive experiences in schools that will enable them to be successful as they move on into their adulthood when each kid to love learning. Yeah. Ryan MacDonald, Rebecca Wolfe, it's been a pleasure having you on. Love to have you guys on again.
Appreciate you coming on disruption. Thank you, Rob. Thank you.