S6 Episode 6: Exploring the Intersection of Emerging Technologies and Critical Thinking with Arvind Ravishunkar from Wipro

Over the last decade , he's helped C-suite executives and business leaders of Fortune 500 companies , start-ups and non and nonprofits uncover their strategic vision . Welcome , arvind . Thank you , andrew .

So think of it similar to like Lab126 at Amazon , where it has a broad charter to look at emerging technologies , existing technologies and think about new products , new services and new ways for Wipro to add value in the world . Right , that's the broader charter of Lab45 .

And within Lab45 , think Tank specifically focuses on helping our customers figure out what those emerging technologies are . Where do you deploy it ? What sort of business models do you have to drive you deploy it ? What sort of business models do you have to drive ?

And to make this even more real , what we do in the think tank is , along with those insights and strategic recommendations , we also have a startup accelerator where we can pair emerging startups in those new technology areas with our customers or interested folks so that these strategies now become actionable immediately .

So quite excited about what we're doing here and thank you for the opportunity to talk about it .

So the reason why we chose change leaders as our customer is because we believe that in the next decade , leadership is going to drastically change , and the type of leaders you're going to see emerge are ones that are deeply focused and rooted in emerging tech , but also have this broader , altruistic view of society and the planet , and so those are the type of

leaders we cater to , and so that's our vision .

Leaders in business have not just matured in terms of understanding of the business models and how to make money , but over a span of time , leaders have also matured in terms of the importance they place on customers , the society and the planet overall . Right , and this has been growing .

So in the 1900s , even up to the late 70s , being able to make a lot of money was sort of the pinnacle of a business leader , right . And then after that , in the 80s , 90s , 2000 timeframe technology started playing a really important role . So a business leader was someone who was able to make money using technology .

Right , and we know a lot of those business leaders today .

In the last decade , there's a huge movement towards customer experience , and so in the last decade , business leaders have not just focused on making money using technology , but they focus a lot on customer experience , and we believe that in this next decade , business leaders will have to equally focus on sustainability .

So sustainability and the planet cannot be an afterthought in your decisions . It's got to be in the forefront of your decision making and if you see leaders like Tim Cook , that's exactly what they're doing right In decisions Apple's making . Sustainability is front , center and core .

So that's who we think change leaders are people who have evolved to have those four disciplines within their decision-making process .

You need to understand it at first principles , because you're going to be making really important decisions , and especially in the world of AI , where the technology could at some point have the ability to make decisions for us . Unlike other technologies , ai could be autonomous .

It could be something with agency , and so it's really important for a business leader to understand the technology . It's really important for a business leader to understand the technology , and so Unpacked is designed to unpack technical topics , but in a business context , right .

So we unpack it from its fundamentals , but we elevate it to why that's relevant for a business leader .

So that's why we think we're a little different from other podcasts out there , where it's not about the technology purely or the business , but it's the connection between those fundamentals of technology and what it means to business , and that's why it's called Unpacked . We unpack many different topics and relate it back to business .

Now , for our audience who are not engineers , could you explain what it means to think from first principles , how you apply in your business and what's the benefit of being able to think about things from the first principles ?

So first principles , essentially , is to go down to the fundamentals of any topic and understand what the assumptions and the facts are right . In any given subject that you learn , there are a set of facts and there are a set of assumptions .

And when you go down to first principle and understand the facts , you can then decide if you want to change the assumptions right . So , for example , if any technology today , when you apply the technology in your business , there are a set of assumptions which help you apply the technology .

Now , if you purely understand the technology only at the assumption level and try to replicate how it's being applied somewhere else into your own business , the odds are that you're not going to be very successful . But if you understand the technology from its first principles what is it capable of , what is it not capable of ?

Why has this technology evolved to be what it is Then you can apply it anywhere in business and make the right decisions , and so we've been applying this to most of our podcasts .

We take a particular topic and we break it down to those first principles of what are the facts , what are the myths , what are the things you need to understand so that you can apply it anywhere you want .

And you know I think to a large degree , even if you ask me for an example today , a relevant example when you look at Elon Musk and when you read his bio . Look at Elon Musk and when you read his biography on SpaceX and what he's done , you know he learned what a rocket is from first principles .

That's how he learned that , hey , I can possibly redesign this right and I can make reusable rockets . If not for that first principles learning , spacex would not exist . So I think it's a very powerful tool .

You screw the lamps in and they had terminals on either side . So we fixed the battery , we connected them in parallel and they glowed quite brightly . Then we collected them in series and they were dim and my father said do you know why that is ? And he explained why it was .

And I remember I had a little log book and I wrote down the output of the experiment . And they were in parallel . They glowed brightly , series they glowed less brightly and explained why . And at six years old I now realize that dad was training me about first principles .

And so in later life an example that may be relevant to some of our listeners the Wi-Fi is not working . I'm the one that always people turn to and they say , andrew , why isn't the Wi-Fi working ? So I go back to first principles . Go back to the router . Do we have internet coming in ? Can you access a web page ?

All those sort of things that you and I take for granted but in later life , applying them in business . Why are we selling as many things as we did ? Well , let's go back to have we looked at customer demand . Is the product ready for market ? Is it priced properly ? All those sorts of things I think you know .

My engineering training has helped me get out some sticky situations , but also , I think , has shaped the way . I think A follow-up question do you instill critical thinking and first principles into your staff as well , people that you work with ?

down to first principles . We have a debate program in our think tank where once a month we pick a topic and our team divides into two and both teams . What they do is they prepare an argument for and against the topic so that teaches them how to look at this from two different perspectives .

And then at the debate they're told on a coin toss which side they're going to take . And both teams have to debate the topic for and against . And we debate based on data , we debate based on evidence , and so the critical .

There's no better way to understand a subject than explain it to someone else or convince someone else of it , and so this is one way in which we do it . We use a debate format . But even if you look at all the reports we write and when you look at all the podcasts we do any topic . We tend to start from the fundamentals and then work our way up .

It's just how our team is designed up on what the world needs , what the assumptions are , and then we built the accelerator based on some fundamentals . So we use it everywhere in our own team . We use it everywhere in our own team .

I think why now I love public speaking , I'm so comfortable on stage is that at that early age I was putting an argument forward . In fact , I remember the first debate I was in I was in grade five , so around 10 years of age . We were debating grade sevens . They were 12 years old , and our topic was that zoos were good for society .

And the three of us I think it was Sue and Ben and I went to the zoo and basically did our research and had all the arguments there and we won . We won against the grade sevens and gosh , that was a good feeling , not that we just we won , but we could actually articulate an argument .

And , as I said , I've had times where I've actually debated things I don't believe in . And if you can actually put that argument forward and have a compelling case , even if it's wrong , I think that's such an important skill and I think our younger generation should be taught about debating and critical thinking at an early age . Do you agree ? I ?

Right , and you're using facts , because if you have to convince someone else or something , you can't convince them based on your emotional outbursts . You have to have facts , you have to have data , and so I think debate teaches you that . It teaches you how to be passionate but , at the same time , rational .

And you know , there's another practice we've instilled , Andrew , which I think is important , which is we do knowledge sharing sessions . So once a week , one of our authors , one of the papers , one of our teams picks up something that they have learned or they're working on and they share it with the entire team .

And the culture we have built is where anybody can challenge them . Anybody can open up a debate and it will not get personal right and we debate the idea . We don't debate the individual right , and that's really important , and so this has also helped these knowledge sharing sessions and this open culture .

It also helps a person building their ideas , because to have someone push back helps you think more critically about that particular idea . So I think these things help and I think this should be , in fact . I'll come back to your first question .

I have to confess that the idea of the debate and starting this debate within our team , it came to me by talking to a 10-year-old . This is 10-year-old , really , really intelligent 10-year-old .

I really love him and he's my friend's son and when we meet up we chat , we almost chat like two friends , and he was telling me about the debate club he's in at school and that got me thinking right . I'm like , wow , such a cool idea . And I came in and we ran a pilot in our think tank and it worked out great and so it's been amazing since then .

So , yes , kids can teach you and kids do need to learn how to debate .

Why do you think it's so important to embrace change in a time of uncertainty ? Is that not counterproductive ?

So we can choose to embrace it or we can choose to push back . And you know there's a . If you don't mind , I'm going to take a minute to go into philosophy . There's a philosopher who talks about the difference between a blade of grass and a large tree .

So when a huge gust of wind blows , when it blows to the blade of grass , it does nothing to the blade of grass because of how flexible it is and how it moves Versus if there's a large gust of wind , the odds of a tree falling off are a lot higher because it resists that wind .

Right Now , I think the forces around us in the world are always larger than who we are as a single human being , and so being adaptable and embracing change , I think , is a fundamental quality that's going to be even more important . So , yeah , if you don't embrace change , the odds that the wind will uproot you is very , very high .

But when you look at all the previous breakthroughs in artificial intelligence , it was more narrow right , where AI was only suitable for one application that has been developed .

The big breakthrough with generative AI is that , for the first time , you're seeing artificial intelligence that can be deployed across multiple applications , which is also why they're saying that it is the first glimpse of AGI , right ? The whole holy grail of AI is artificial general intelligence , but I don't think we're there yet , right ?

However , it is showing the early proof that it could be a general purpose technology . So , yes , it will proliferate . Compared to all other AI breakthroughs in the past , this one we're going to see a lot more everywhere we go .

On Wednesday afternoon the BBC called me and said could was thrilled on Wednesday afternoon the BBC called me and said could you appear on the show tonight , live to talk about the announcement . So I managed to get a short hit on BBC . Your initial view of that .

They do that so well and they pay such close attention to user experience that I'm quite excited to experience Apple's way of bringing AI to the market , to the market right .

And actually , you know , on that broader topic , andrew , of AI coming into our everyday lives , if you know , microsoft also has released Copilot plus PC , right , they made the announcement and I think you're going to see a lot more of this .

You're going to see a lot more of integration of artificial intelligence into computers , into your mobile phone everywhere , into computers , into your mobile phone everywhere , and I think that's going to be our first usage of mainstream AI in our everyday life .

The agents , the co-pilots , they're all going to become a part of our everyday life and the way it's going to happen is through the devices we use every day , whether it's the mobile phone or the tablet or the PC , whatever those are right . So not surprised that Apple made the announcement , whatever those are right .

So not surprised that Apple made the announcement , and I'm really glad they did , and I think , in general , people should look out for Microsoft , apple , google , all the top providers , right ? Amazon I'm sure you're going to see another version of Alexa pretty soon , right ?

So all of these , I think , are going to play a pretty critical role in making us more AI friendly .

So , the things that are going to be baked in actually iOS 18 , I've now got the developer version on my phone and my tablet , so I've actually seen it , but the AI stuff hasn't been enabled yet . That's coming . I think someone suggested beta three for developers . It might come in , so I can't play with it yet , so I'm relying on what they've said .

But the sort of things that are built in voice transcription I use Otter for that . Correcting documents I use Grammarly for that . Looking at when my flights are due I use TripIt for that . So what's going to happen is all these multiple apps that I've had to log in and give my information away and are not connected .

I'm now going to give permission and I have to trust Apple is not going to misuse that . But it's going to come down to the one area . And if I look at my own little research I do every time I do a keynote I did one on Wednesday . I get everyone to stand up and I say , oh , stand up if you use chat GPT , and most people stand up .

I then say , stay standing if you use it every day , and most people sit down . Now I thought , is this just because of the audience I was talking to ?

I've done this from Cayman Island to Luxembourg and I get the same response every time , and about three weeks ago , Reuters Institute of Journalism and Oxford University released a survey for about 14,000 people from six different countries , and the US has the highest daily use of generative AI , at around 6% to 8% . Where I am in the UK , 2% to 5% .

So my very unscientific survey was right and this is why I think this is a game changer .

People haven't worked out how to use these tools in their daily life because they have to have a purpose to do that , I think , whether it's Apple or Google or Amazon , and you bake it into something you're using every day , that's in your hand and knows everything about you , I'm with you .

I think this is a watershed moment , because the average consumer actually won't know that they're using AI for these things . I tell my audience at the moment if you unlock your phone , you're using AI . But if you're able to and I think one of the presenters on Tuesday did this they said do I need to book a car now to pick up mum from the airport ?

There's no context there , because the phone knew that mum had sent an email and the flight number was there and it was being tracked through some application .

So I think what we're going to see is that AI is going to be baked in AI inside , no matter what device you use , and consumers start taking it for granted , which I think is great , because then the friction is removed and then everyone will be standing up saying I use AI every day , and I know that I use AI every day .

I've always seen that people to some degree , people need to be told how to use something , right . You just can't deploy the technology and say , hey , figure it out yourself , you got to show people . There are some . We call them the early adopters .

Andrew , you were telling me in our last podcast that you took a picture of your hotel room and you were working with it on chat , gpt , right , I can tell you that that's like one percentile of the population . If consumers are educated on where you can use it , how you can use it , people will jump onto it , right ?

And then two things one , educate and then give them access . I think access is coming by integrating it within all the devices . Next thing would be education show a bunch of use cases and , man , this will take off .

We were doing an episode on AI strategy with a professor from UC Berkeley His name is Greg LeBlanc , and it was one of the early episodes we did . So when we were doing that episode and we were unpacking with him , we came to the realization that , while a lot of customers are talking about AI strategy , what they first need is a data strategy .

That's the foundation , because trying to deploy AI in a company where you don't have any good access to data is like buying a gasoline car with no access to gasoline . What are you going to do with that car ? Are you going to push it ?

So every company that is looking to develop a really meaningful AI strategy first needs to ask itself what data do I have access to , right ? Whether it's for the AI to process or for you yourself to build AI , what data do you have access to ? So even the most simplest use cases , right ?

Simplest use cases in human resources , marketing , finance , all of it at some point . If you have to scale the AI and if you have to make it tangible for your organization , you have to be able to give it access to your data right within the organization .

And if your data is not curated , if it's not in a format that's easily accessible , then the use cases are still going to be surface level or not scalably meaningful .

So I think that kind of insight right we've had almost in every episode and in every episode I guess this surprised me In everything from hallucinations to grounding , to AI usage , to how to go into production with AI right .

A lot of people use cases are important , but we learned that 85% of AI today is not successful because the failures are in production , not in the coming up with use cases . So , like this , you learn in every episode and so it's been amazing . So I want to say every episode has given us something new .

I ask them three things what's the data you have , what's the data you need and what's the data you want ? And you can see them thinking and scratching . I've actually run workshop . We've actually worked out what they and then was like you mean , we have to get our data in order before we can possibly train an AI system , you bet .

So data is always the deciding factor and sometimes it really has been a mind shift for clients to say we probably can't do a project yet because our data is everywhere and we don't know what we want or have what we have .

If you want AI to work across your organization , the data silos in your organization also have to be broken up , so it's not just access to data , but also rethinking how data is structured within your organization . So there's a lot of work that needs to be done in this front and I don't think companies have done the work yet .

So I think , a lot of work up ahead .

The second thing it does for you is it , to some degree , curiosity hopefully kills all the biases right . Even today , when I talk to people and I'm like what can we do with AI in this team or in this use case , immediately all the legacy biases come up right Like oh , this problem is going to occur , that problem is going to occur , we can't use it .

You know AI shouldn't be used a particular way . Even within our think tank there's some debate right now on whether AI should be used as a co-pilot in our own thinking .

But if you're curious , I think you dispel all those myths and you start thinking about hey , what can I actually do with this technology that has come out , rather than think about past legacy bias ? And so I think , first , dispels fear . Second is curiosity allows you to remove all biases , right . And third is it gives you the permission to fail .

You know , when you're curious , you can go in looking to explore something without worrying about the outcome , right , and that is so liberating , right ? So liberating , it's okay , man . Okay , I'm curious about something . I want to apply it . You know , do a quick pilot test it , right .

And as long as it's not what they call a one-way door and you know , I think Jeff Bezos says that there aren't many one-way doors , most of it are two-way doors you can come back and change your decision , right . So for me , that's what curiosity is about . It's about helping in all these ways .

And the fourth thing for me , curiosity is about is what you brought out for me in your podcast . It was so refreshing to hear your approach , where curiosity is about , along with the mindset , applying it and learning about it . Right , what are you doing today with the technology ?

That's what curiosity is about , and I love that , and I hope people listen to our podcast with Andrew , because he talks about curiosity not just being a mindset , but you talk about it being a habit , about how you use it , and I thought that was super refreshing . So that's my fourth . Now , my fourth definition of curiosity is what you brought to us .

I think what will happen is the overall industry pie is going to grow .

You're going to have new types of services , new types of needs , like we spoke about data , right , for example , all the organizations that exist today , in order for them to effectively use AI , in order for them to have effective AI strategies , they all need to rethink the data and they have to make the data accessible , break down silos , bring it together ,

curate it , clean it . So much work needs to be done . Who's going to do all that work , right ? So I think there's a huge , tremendous growth up ahead for consulting overall Now , but I do believe the nature of consulting is going to change .

You are going to see consulting where AI and humans are going to be working together right in some form or fashion to help clients . It's not going to be purely human deployed . That , I do believe , will change . You're going to see a lot more AI integrated . But for me it's a positive .

It's only a positive and it's an upside , and I'm really excited to see how it's going to evolve and change . And this is not just IT consulting Everything strategy consulting , financial consulting , consulting is a broad , broad industry , and any form of even actually , if you ask me to really broaden this out healthcare , medical field , is also consulting , right .

What does a doctor do ? You consult a doctor . So , anywhere in any business , in any use case of humanity where a human being is helping another human being think about something or work with something , ai is going to play a role , right . So that's as broad as you can get . So it's not just about IT consulting .

Anybody who's doing any form of consulting needs to start thinking about how to use AI .

But I've been thinking more philosophically lately and I've asked the question I'm going to ask you to a number of people . In fact , I asked this question today to a panel at the AI Summit in London , and what I'm about to ask you , I was told , was a statement .

So let's see , malcolm Gladwell famously said that you need 10,000 hours of practice and expertise to become an expert .

So for young graduates , for people going through school now and entering the workforce , if they're going to be using some of these tools to do some of the work that traditionally was done as part of those 10,000 hours , what's going to happen to them ? How are they going to get their 10,000 hours up ? Or is this just not an issue ?

Right , I don't have a thought through answer yet , or I don't , I haven't formed an opinion on this yet , but let's see if we can form an opinion as we go along , and I'm going to ask you to help me form this opinion .

Calculators came out several decades ago and today students use calculators a lot in their work , but I don't think it's changed their ability to think or function . It's just another tool they've started learning to use . I think AI is very similar today .

In today's evolution of AI and generative AI , it is another tool for someone to use , and if you can enhance your learning and maybe the type of processing you need to do in your mind is no more reliant on knowing all the facts right , ai can give you all the facts Today . You can ask AI anything and it'll give you the knowledge right .

Ai can give you all the facts Today . You can ask AI anything and it'll give you the knowledge right .

It knows way more than anybody knows , and so maybe the way you learn changes , and so I think it's really important for education systems to start looking at how students can use AI from grade one , because the way you learn will change and unfortunately , education the teachers and the learning system itself needs to figure this out as you go along .

It's like you are building the plane as it's taking off the runway . You don't have the time to sit in the shed and build a plane and take it off right , so the education system and students have to come together to figure out how to use AI .

And definitely students who graduate in 5-10 years from now , the skills they need and the way they need to think and what they have to do is going to be different . It's difficult to forecast it sitting here today , also because AI itself is going to change . I spoke about the current state of AI .

Right , if AI gets more and more intelligent , then what is the role of a human versus an AI in the workforce ? Nobody can predict that today . It's very difficult to predict it , because the reason it's very difficult also to predict it is because , as humans , what we do is that , if you think about it , we don't discriminate who's doing the work for us .

If someone is doing work for us , if the person is a human being versus AI , if the work quality is the same as a human being , you're not going to discriminate who's doing the work . As long as someone's doing the work for you , you don't care .

And so that's where I think most of the disruption will start to happen . Humans , who are consumers , are going to start using AI for their jobs , and that's how jobs will get displaced . It's not because companies are putting AI for their jobs , and that's how jobs will get displaced . It's not because companies are putting AI in the place .

It's because humans are going to prefer the AI right . So it's difficult it's really difficult to forecast it . But to the broader point , I think that schools , universities and students have to learn how to use the technology and adapt with it .

But just on something you said at the AI conference today , we had someone talking about music and it was a very similar theme . Would you mind if the music was created by a human or an AI ? And it doesn't really matter . So I think that , gosh , we need to have a further discussion . We're never going to put it into this one .

I'm going to ask you my final question before we go to quickfire and I think we will pause the other stuff for another podcast , either yours or mine what have you got in store for season two of your Unpacked ?

Ai is going to be a huge topic and it's going to be a very relevant topic because businesses are starting to look at use cases . But the next question is how do you make money ? This is what your investors are going to ask . So that's the first thing we're going to unpack .

The second thing we're going to unpack in season two is generative AI business ecosystems . I strongly believe that to be successful in AI , you have to work as an ecosystem . You can't do everything on your own as a company , and so how do you work in this new world of ecosystems ? What type of ecosystems are available for you if you're building AI products ?

I think that's the second thing we'll unpack , and the third one I definitely think we're going to unpack is the continuing world of regulations and responsible AI . I think , world of regulations and responsible AI . I think , Andrew , the first major lawsuits or AI issues have not happened yet , right ?

But the minute that happens , the world of regulations , everything you know always happens right the minute you have the first major lawsuit or the first major challenge . That's when everybody wakes up , and so I think there's going to be a lot of discussions on responsible ai .

I I don't see that going away because it's a problem unsolved , and so season two , we're going to tackle those three aspects too . So , yeah , super excited about season two .

The best advice you've ever received .

And when I say chat GPT , what I mean is any form of AI-based product , right ? Whether it's chat GPT , davinci Lama , it doesn't matter Google . Spend 10 minutes with generative AI every day , right ? The second thing is do a little brainstorming with yourself and genuinely answer the question of what parts of your job possibly could AI do in a year or two .

That's the second way , second most important thing for you to do , because you need to be prepared for what's coming , and you'd rather be prepared and evolve right ? And I want to say the third thing is just have fun , right . Like you said , andrew , be curious , have fun , read up on something AI . It's okay to have some fun , right ?

So , excuse me , read up on something AI related , have some fun and look at the fun sides of the tool , right . Draw with it , paint with it , do something with it and music . Have some fun with it , right , have some fun with it .

You'll learn about all the platforms that are coming out . If you're curious about AI , blockchain , if you're curious about remote work , lab45 has some amazing innovations in that space . And , of course , if you're curious about IT consulting as a whole , go down to webprocom and you'll learn more . So yeah , andrew , I'm excited .

I'm hoping people tune in and listen more to our podcast .