Ep 291 | Importance of Messaging in Conversations for More Conversions with Ron Robinson

podcast that are so value aligned and strategy aligned. So I know this is gonna be an awesome conversation, and we're talking marketing, but in a. Little bit of a different way, and so I would just kind of love for you to share a little bit about why kind of marketing and conversations and meeting people and nonprofits is something that you're passionate about before we kind of jump into some strategies. All right. Well, for myself, like I love helping

folks. I love helping people you know reach their goal, reach their potential. Sharing my knowledge, you know, I hate seeing someone you know struggle or try to figure something out, and I'm right next to you, and I have that answer, you know. So I just love to share. I love to help other folks succeed. You know, do pretty well. I'm in a nice position. So want to see others, not just other people around me, but people that I see. You know, having a hard time or just lacking some

knowledge, or just like to know something. So I you know, I love doing it. I love sharing love. Definitely have a soft spot for

nonprofits. Love helping nonprofits achieve their goals and helping them, you know, whether it be fundraise or event plan or whatever that may look like, so Sami Bedell-Mulhern: well, and that is precisely why I'm so excited for this conversation, because I think you know, the heart and the love that nonprofits have for their community sometimes doesn't allow them to do the strategic things that they know they need to do, because they might think

it feels inauthentic or it's too salesy. But really, at the end of the day, whether it's offline or online conversations, the more conversations, the more people you meet, the more money you're going to raise, period, right? So how do we kind of start to think about our marketing efforts, our fundraising efforts, in ways of kind of a numbers game, while still feeling like we're not being that car salesman down the road that we, you know, that we don't want to become, right?

Well, you know, just kind of like we were discussing a bit earlier. It's, you know quantifying. You know how you benefit people to people that want to help. So keep in mind, people want to help. They want to be involved. They want to donate money, they want to donate time, they want to donate any articles of anything that they may have to help you reach other people and people. People want to do that right? So in today's climate, they just need to understand, hey, what are you

doing? Maybe, if it aligns with what I'm doing. You know, sometimes people have to feel good and like certain things, so you have to quantify what you do for them, so they can help you right? For nonprofits to feel comfortable and not feel salesy, just have to think about it. You, you know, you, you want to give away this jacket. So I'll use the jacket thing again from earlier. You know you want to give away the jacket. I have this jacket. I need to give it to somebody. You start talking

to people, right? And it's not anything salesy. It's really authentic. You have the jacket. You want to give it away. Who can I give it to? We do that all the time. Hey, I have this product, or I have this thing, who can I give this away to? And you start talking to folks, because you've really want to give it away. You know, you're not even thinking about it. Somebody tells you, Bob needs a jacket. Take it around the corner, give it to Bob. All right. Well, you take it around

the corner. You start talking to more people, trying to find Bob. But you find out clearance needs a jacket. So okay, well, you give the jacket the clearance, you go back, you get another jacket for Bob. Because you're like, Okay, Bob needs his jacket. I'm going to give Bob this jacket. So you go get another jacket for Bob, right? You find Bob, but now you're like, man, there's so many people you ran into, so many people that need jackets. So now you're going back, getting all

the jackets you have. Maybe you don't fit anymore, or whatever, and then you're just giving them away. You feel so good, you want to go back buy more jackets to give away. But now, and it's like, All right, well, I can't buy any more jackets, so I need help. I need other people to give me jackets. I need the other people to buy, buy me jackets. So now you have to approach folks, ask them for their jackets, or ask people, Hey, can you give me a couple dollars so I can go buy this

jacket, so I can give it to somebody else. So, you know, you have to feel the same way about asking for that money to go buy jack to give somebody else, the same way you feel about giving it to somebody, because it equates to your mission. It equates to you being to help somebody benefit from what you're trying to do for them. So it's it's very important to to just wrap that asking or to wrap any fundraising efforts and to make it, you know, quantify that for somebody to so they can see

how you're benefiting it. You know that you're in, you know you're in goal, your end user.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern: Well, I love this example for a lot of reasons, and in some ways, people might think, Well, that's an oversimplification. Like, what the work that I do is so much more complex than that. Like, we're trying to help homeless people or on the street, and it's like this whole trickle down, you know, we get in our own heads about, like, the big picture of what we're trying to do. But I love that example so much, because it really can be that simple when

we're talking. Donors. We don't have to tell them all of the history and the reason why we're doing this, it could literally be as simple as, like, I'm in Minneapolis today as we're recording this, it is current, like, the temperature is currently negative two degrees, right? It's cold. And so it could literally be as simple as calling donors on a day like today and saying, Hey guys, it's negative two degrees outside. We know there's, you know, 1000 people on the streets homeless

in Minneapolis. I'm making this up. Uh, could you help us get 10 coats to help some people on the street today? Because it's, it can be over simplified like that. We don't need to overdo it. Yeah, definitely. And it goes back to, you know, if it is just you, right? You're just you're just one person. You're like, I'm going to get jackets for people and just give them out to people that need jackets, right? Somebody says, Hey, call, call Bob's grocery store down the street because

they love stuff like this. It really is just that simple. You call a grocery store because he's into it. You're going to tell him, Hey, I'm giving out jackets to people. I need more jackets. I'm you know, we're running out. We're running thin. We're having a hard time coming across jackets. Somebody said, you can help us. Can you help us? Bible, say yay, nay. Like he loves what it is. He loves what's happening. He's

interested in helping. Chances are, Bob is not going to go into well, what's your history, what's your what's your track record, you know, how many people have you guys, you know, helped so far? Like, if you can make Bob feel good about donating jackets or paying for jackets to get donated, chances are Bob is going to be on board. So it's, it's really, it like,

it really is that simple, you know? And I think one of the things is, is that founders feel like they get away from their purpose once you start adding on, because you now you have volunteers helping you right now, you may have a place or facility right now you need an accountant and bookkeeper to come on board to keep track of all this money that's coming in for you to achieve the mission, you know. Okay, now we're getting so much stuff. Okay, now we need a van. We need a truck,

you know. So we add these things that it doesn't complicate, but they're tools, because you want your mission to grow. You want it to get bigger. Now, not only do you want to give out jackets in Minneapolis, but now maybe you might want to go to, you know, some other town, you know, around the corner, down the street, or something like that, to give out more jackets. How are they going to get there? You can't be in two places at once.

Who's going to give them out for you? So, you know, our mission becomes more complicated as we add pieces on. So it seems like it gets complicated, as far as you know, asking for what we need. But it's really about the same thing, you know, you can start getting into some things requirements. Now, if you, if you're dealing with, like, a fortune 500 company, like, okay, yeah, go. You know, Verizon, they love this type of stuff,

you should pitch something to them. Well, you just can't call a rising up on the telephone say, Hey guys, I'm giving away, you know, like they don't operate like that. So that's where the complication comes in. You know, you have to figure out how they like to be pitched. You have to create that pitch. You have to pitch it over to them. It has to go through, you know,

five people. It goes before whoever boards in charge of how they give out money, and they look at it, and then somewhere down the line, in a couple months, you'll probably get an answer, right? So, yeah, you know, that's how these things grow. But on the on the simple side of it, it's really, it really is just that simple, you know, I think, well, I love Sami Bedell-Mulhern: what you're saying, Yeah, because I think as we grow, it's like the operational expense side is what

I think a lot of organizations get hung up on. Like, it's easy to ask somebody, you give me $10 I can give a coat to this person. Like, that's easy, but we've, we get hung up on this, okay, but if I'm also asking for, like, we need to pay for the electricity bill to keep our facility running, or the gas to keep our trucks going. Like that's not as sexy or fun we get in our own heads about that, but to your point, it still is. If you give us this money, we can give the coats away, because

that's ultimately what you're trying to do. And so what I love about this, the kind of arc you've taken us on, is at the beginning, it's very much grassroots. It's who do you

know? Who can help? Blah, blah, blah. As we grow, how do we continue to ensure like, if I'm going to spend half of my day making outreach calls and having conversations with people like or I'm going to we're going to bring some people in to help with marketing, and they're going to do some social media content and some blog whatever it might be, we have to update our website. How do we ensure that we are still talking to the right people, so that we can get those volume of conversations in

but they're not wasted? Like I think that's something that we struggle with. We can't just talk to everybody, so how do we kind of make sure we're talking to the right people? Yeah, that is. True. Definitely can't talk to everybody. And, you know, I guess I kind of want to feel like that you're not really ever talking to the wrong person, right? Any anything come back around. The reason why we network, and the reason why we talk to people is to plant a

seed nine times out of 10. Like, if I want to take something and just give it to somebody, nine times out of 10, that first person that I talked to is probably not going to be the recipient, but next week, they may run into somebody that could be the recipient, you know. So unless I already know already I'd see something on the table like, oh, you know what Jill needed to staple. I remember that. I think I would just give this to her. You know that could happen. But if you're like, Oh,

I'm just looking at the stapler. I just want to give it away. I don't need it anymore. I don't know who needs it or not. I have to find out, that's the marketing piece. You have to find out marketing is just about getting your message to the person that needs it at the time they need it. That's it. That's all it is, very simple, right? And so all these other tactics and spending money is where you come in at to get that message

to the person that needs it at the time they need it. That's where you spend the money at. That's where analytics come into play. That's where you know AI now is coming into play. That's why, you know cookies are, you know, giving you ads and everything like that, because it's all about getting you the message at that right time when you when you need it. That

that's what it's about. So on the simpler side of things, if you're just talking to people most of the time you're not talking to people at the time they need the message, or at the time they're ready to buy or at the time they're ready to give something. Most of the time you don't reach people at that stage, unless you create more opportunity talking to a whole lot of people, you know, and that's the other aspect of it.

That's another place where you spend money and you grow marketing, because it is also about talking to as many people, or getting your message in front of as many people as you can, right? Yeah, combination of as many people as you can and as many people as you think that message will resonate with. You know, if you can find 100 people that resonate with your message, you know your close rate will be very, very high if you just

generally put 100 people in front of your message. Of course, your close rate is going to be lower because it's not going to resonate with them the same because they're not on the same page. They're not thinking about it. It's not something they need right now, you know. So it, you know, it's going to

hit a little bit differently. So it's just those are really, really simple terms and everything else just kind of really convolutes that the way, that simplification of what this is all about, all the other tactics and spending money and spending time in social media and email marketing and cold calling, that stuff just helps you, you know, get to getting your message in front of a lot of people. You know, if you do social media, you put your message in front of millions of people.

90% of those people are not the right people. They're not but your message going in front of millions of people astronomically blows up your close rate, you know, if I can, I don't care who's if I can get in front of a million people at a time every day, I'm going to do just fine, you know? And it literally just equates to that.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern: I think it's a top of mind piece, and I think that's why we always talk to clients about Do One Thing excellently, and then add on to that, and then add on to that and add on to that, because if you try to do everything all at once, you're going to drive yourself bonkers. But that that staying top of mind piece is really critical to your point of, okay, well, when they are ready, they won't be like, wait.

I remember seeing something about this organization that was doing something I really thought was cool, but I can't remember.

But I can't remember what their name is, and now I can't find them, like you've lost them, and like we have examples of clients we've run email campaigns for where, because we send out communication every two weeks, all of a sudden, they saw an expansion in a program that we were doing whereas they'd never given before, but they were engaged with us, and all of a sudden that new expansion hit them, and they were like, This

is really cool. It is important to me. And all of a sudden, we got a gift from them that we would have never gotten before had we not been communicating with them on a regular basis, because they would not know that we had done something new. And so I think you know what you're what you're speaking to, is really just staying top of mind, staying present. Because I think I always, I always hear right message, right time, and it's overwhelming, because I'm like, Well, how am I supposed to know

when it's the right time? And to your point. Right, you don't right you but your responsibility is making sure that you're sharing as much about your organization as often as possible, so that don't have to worry about when the right time is right. Right exactly. You want to always talk about what you have and what you need, because if you don't tell people what you have and what you need, you're not going to get what you need and you're not going to give away or sell what

you have. If I'm selling waters and I let five people walk by and don't tell them, hey, I'm over here, I have water, you're not going to sell any. But if I tell those five people I have water, maybe one of them might buy maybe I can tell the next five and the next five eventually somebody's going to buy a order, you know. So, yeah, it's about, you know, telling people what you have and what you need. And you have to constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly, do that

all the time, you know. And then you can do things in ways you know you want to, you want people to know what you have, and you want people to know what you need. But you also don't want, sometimes you don't want to overshadow people as well, right? So this is where you kind of get into, well, how do you network, and how do you market, and how do you do, like a sales presentation, or how do you talk to somebody about what you need? That's where you start getting into all these little other

intricacies, right? Of you know, like you said, don't want to come off salesy, right? I have to tell this person what I need. I have to tell this person what I do. Like you have to, you have to do it. So it's just thinking of a way to like when I first started, the side, side piece for a minute, when I first started, I just had this mentality of just do it. I did a lot of stuff that I wasn't comfortable with, but it's just like, just just do it. Just Just do it. Just talk to that person.

Just call these people. Just approach whoever like. Just Just do it. If I thought something was a good idea and it could help me achieve whatever the goal is going to be, whatever the mission was, just do it. Don't think about it. Just Just, just go ahead and just do that. Whatever needs to be done. Just do it. And mainly talking to people, yeah, had to do it just like, walk up, Hey, my name is and let it Sami Bedell-Mulhern: go. Worse that can happen, they say, You

know what, this isn't the right fit for us. And if the worst, if the worst thing out of that conversation is a no, you're not the right fit. But you can have the opportunity to say, you know, I really enjoyed this conversation. Is there somebody else that you might know that might this might be a better fit for? Because, to your point, people want to help out. They want to participate. Doesn't mean that everything is going to be a yes, but you never know what's going to come out of a

conversation. But you know what's going to not come out of a conversation like you don't have the just like your water example, if you don't have the conversation, you know nothing is going to happen, right? Exactly, exactly. So definitely important to just to just do it, have that conversation. Make sure you tell people what you need and you tell people what you have. That

is probably the most important takeaway. People have to know what you have, and you have to know what you need that is like, so important. Well, I Sami Bedell-Mulhern: want to double down on that really quick and ask you, when we are talking to people about what we need, that it shouldn't be like coming out of a fire hose. Like, well,

we need 15 different things, right? Like, how do we kind of prioritize what we need to, you know, encourage that conversion, but also to just not overwhelm the people we're having a conversation with. That's, that's a, that's a good one. I'm kind of one that likes to focus in, like, okay, you know, this is, this is what we have. This is what we're selling, you know, it should, it should be very, very focused, very laser, right?

Shouldn't be a whole lot of fluff involved in it. You know, because people get distracted with fluff, you want to stay very granular. So, yeah, sometimes you just have to, you just have to pick that thing. I mean, you need jackets, right? You need money for jackets. You need money for trucks. You need money for electricity. Like you were saying, You need money for building. Do you ask for jackets? Do you ask for money? Do you tell people you need money for operational costs?

Like, you know, what are we doing? Right? Ask for the money. Put your mission out there, and I have to tell people, necessarily, I need money to pay, you know, Susie over in payroll, or, you know, we got to put gas in the truck, or something like that. Don't really, I mean, don't get me wrong, you will run into some people that's going to ask about the fine details. Definitely will, right, but you don't have

to worry about the fine details. Necessarily, if people are not asking about the fine details, you can worry about the fine details if somebody asks you for or if you make a pitch, or if you put in for a grant, or something that asks about fine details, then at that point it's fine. But you know, going into all those fine details is very overwhelming. You know, lot of people don't really have a grasp on how nonprofit, you know, especially you know, something like a food pantry or something

like that. And let's say they don't deliver, let's say people just come to them the intricacies even involved in an operation like that, and the expenses that they see, people have no grasp of that, right? Yeah. And honestly, people, a lot of people, don't care, you know, a lot of them, a lot of them don't care. So just keep it, you know, just keep it what you need in what you know, what you have, you have jackets. You need money for jackets. That's the mission. Yep, you know, put it together.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern: No, I love that. And I think what you're saying is be ready. Like, you know, we're not saying don't be transparent or don't be afraid to be transparent about your financials. Be ready to answer those because I think nonprofits have to do a lot more work to build trust with with folks.

Definitely be ready. Because, especially those repeat donors, you get that phone call with the CEO of Verizon, and you know, like, you know you need to be ready with some of those, those questions, but I agree with you 100% like, people are going to buy into the mission and the work that you're doing and the impact that they know they're going to be able to support. And in reality, if you say $20 is going to help me deliver three

coats when you're putting those numbers together, right? We should be building in, okay, well, but for me to deliver that coat, I actually have to drive. I have, like, the cost of the car and the gas and the driver and the volunteer coordinate like that is built into the cost of getting that coat to be able

to give to a person. So I think we need to think about how we're managing those not managing how we're communicating what it costs us to actually deliver the mission and put that into those impact statements, because that just helps us all around, definitely, definitely.

And you know, looking at that as a whole, you know, definitely helps and that, that fine tuning of where every nickel every dollar goes once again, you know you're not going to have to deal with that too often, unless you're dealing with, you know, a foundation, large sums of money, you know, fortune, 500 companies, you know, stuff like that. You're not going to have to deal with those fine, fine details too often, unless you're just constantly going after that type

of money. You know, then, yeah, those people, they want fine details. They want history. They want. You know how they want numbers they want. You know, they want a whole lot of stuff. So, yeah, but on that level, you know, you're dealing with Bob grocery store down the street. You know your individual donors. A lot of times you tell them what you're doing, you know, yeah, tell them to come out and maybe see or help or volunteer or something like that and that. That's usually all it takes.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern: Yeah, for sure. Okay, so the last thing I kind of want to touch on before we wrap this up is, you know, we we mentioned you need to be in front of your audience all the time. You need to be sharing. It can be overwhelming if we think about all of the different things that we need to be doing in a day, plus having the one on one conversations with people, and now you're saying we'll have as many conversations with as

many people as possible. Overwhelming, right? So how do we start to track what's working for us and what we want to double down on? Because different organizations are different. If you're local, if you're national, you might have better success with one on one conversations. You might have better success with your email. Like, what kind of where should we start with processing all of these activities that we're doing and figuring out what is actually supporting our fundraising efforts?

The best track everything. Yeah, track everything. You can write stuff down on paper. You can use an Excel spreadsheet. You can have something as complicated as Salesforce, you know, but some kind of way you want to figure out how to track everything you know you want to. And now I simplify a lot of stuff, but this, I will not simplify. It is as complicated as it's going to sound track everything, you know, people like, oh, well, how can you detail all these

conversations? Like, I have a conversation, I'll try to, you know, write some notes down, or whatever. AI is now making a little bit easier so you can get summarized notes in your conversations, and you can put that you know, so I use HubSpot CRO I have a conversation, summarize that conversation, drop it in HubSpot, Date Time, how it went, any expectation, promises, whatever, right? And then I can always reference. That back, because me and you have a conversation like this

now, and we may not talk again for a year. I'm not going to remember what we talked about. I'm not going to remember if I made a promise, if you made a promise to me like I'm not going to remember, you know, so if I have that somewhere that's easily referenced. So this is the problem with using like pen and paper using notebooks, is you can't reference that information fast enough. It's great that you have it. And, I mean, if that's what you got to do, that's what you got to do,

but it's hard to reference that stuff fast enough. You know, for women, I Sami Bedell-Mulhern: have to, I have to just laugh at this really quickly, and then I'll let you continue on. But I can't tell you how many times I'm like, connected to somebody who connects me to somebody who connects me to somebody and then it's like, we can't get in. Can't get a meeting on the calendar for like, three or four weeks, and then it pops up, and I'm planning for my week, and I'm like, Who is this person,

and what are we even talking about, and why, where? And I'm searching my email and all the places like, where did this person come from? And then we both show up on the call, like, why are why are we here? Sorry. So I love that, because it's so spot on. And I know that this happens all the time for everybody, tracking everything,

definitely. Yeah, so Track, track everything, you know, if you can, if you keep, if you keep that in mind, you know, like, you know, I mess up sometimes, or I don't log something, or it happens, you know, but you know, just try to keep that discipline of tracking everything, track your conversations, track who gives you, what would you give away? You know, what people are doing. Like, it's really like that intense, like, track everything, and it makes conversations

easier as well. So with tracking everything, getting into how you know what's working and what's not working. If you're like, Man, I had 10 conversations and they just didn't, didn't go too well, right? If you have that summary, or, even better, if you have that word for word, of how the conversation flow, you can look at that and say, Yeah, you know what I did, this the past 10 times it didn't work out. Let me look at the past 10 conversations. From there, you look at, oh, these went a lot

better. Let me get back to this flow over here versus that flow, you know? So you start gaging that. You look at what went well, what didn't go well, and incorporate what went well. That part is very simple. Look at what didn't go well, what went well. Get rid of what didn't go well. Incorporate what did that part is very simple, but if you're not tracking everything, it's hard for you to go back and look at what went well and what didn't go well.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern: See those trends. I love that because I think any person I don't do the marketing for my own business

because I'm too in it. Like, I need a third person, a third party, to, like, help me process and like, work on my sales flows and like, all like, it's I can't and so when you're talking and pitching to donors all the time, you know there's a lot in the messaging, the jargon, the words that we use, the way we talk about the problem that we're solving that's so different for us in the day to day versus the person who just wants to give

you a coat. Like there can be so many things that we over complicate and that we aren't being clear about, because, you know, we're 10 steps above in the knowledge area from the person that we're talking to. And for a lot of us that are in super complex types of organizations, you know, if it's a research based thing, we it can get out of hand real

quickly. So I think that's really, really good too, to pay attention to those conversations and maybe have somebody else go through them with you so that they can pick out the things more quickly that, you know, even just changing words, we had somebody, I just recorded a podcast episode last week on like SEO and keyword research. And it was, he was sharing something as simple as a company. He was marketing for hot sauce. Well, hot sauce doesn't land with people, but

chili sauce did. He was in the UK. And, you know, just like, little tweaks like that can make a huge difference. Definitely, definitely, and that just that that speaks to like, you know, spending money, spending time, um, more money you spend, less time you spend right? So time somebody help you. That's somebody else's time. Now, are you paying that person, or are they just helping you because

they're your friend or something like that? All right? You know that it's still time, still somebody else's time, whether you paid for it or not, right? So if you personally want to spend less time, you usually have to pay more. And if you don't want to pay more than, you usually have to spend more time.

So the time it takes for you to go through, you know, 100 conversations and figure out the tone and what happened, why it went well or why it didn't go well, that takes a lot of time, you know, versus paying $100 a month for some software where you can just plug that in and it can kind of some. Out what's going on, or having somebody on your team that can look at that, or coach, or something that says, hey, why don't we try

doing it like this? So, you know, tell people sometimes you're going to have to invest into what you're doing because you just don't have the time. Like it's impossible, and that, you know, that's another step on the marketing chain, is you get to a point. So we're growing this operation now. We have a facility. We got people, we got trucks, we got this. We got that you talking to 150 people a day is not going to cut it. Number one, you don't even have the time to talk to 150 people a

day, and you need to talk to 1000s of people. Your messages need to hit 1000s of people a day in order for you to maintain that operation. So you have to invest in that. Sami Bedell-Mulhern: Yep, for sure. I feel like we could talk all day. So much good stuff in this episode, from like, when you're just getting started, if you are to like as you're starting to grow and scale. So I really thank you, Ron for

sharing your wisdom and your insights. Is there kind of a last key takeaway, maybe something I didn't ask you about, or something that you want to share? And also, how do people connect with you and learn more about you and the work that you do? Let me let me see, I think I pretty much hit on everything I wanted to hit on a lot basically, you know. So basically, you know, just simplifying the marketing piece, you know, people get intimidated with marketing, and I don't want

them to get overwhelmed or intimidated. Usually, like small business owners, people don't really have a lot of money to invest. It's just like, look, just talk to people. Just, just talk to people. You know, I know I said document everything. But you can't sit around and wait for things you know. You have to just do you have to make it happen. So where you're at right now, that's all you can do, is talk to people, talk to people, talk to people, talk to people, talk to people. Do that, you

know, tell people HubSpot is free. HubSpot has a free thing. You can just get it, use it, document things, keep track of folks. So there's no excuse there. So download, you know, GitHub, spot, it's free. Of course, you can pay for things. If you start getting bigger, they have marketing, sales, all kinds of stuff. But on the surface, it's free. They let you use it as a CRM, keep track of your people. Keep track of what's going on with them. Um, so, yeah, that's about it. And

just time and money. You know, you spend more time if you spend less money, you spend less time if you spend more money, you know, just understand that that correlation to where you're getting places, because that'll help you understand why your growth is getting stung. You know, if you you can only do but so much you are in the way of your growth. No, you have to get out the way and start leading with your pocket a little bit. I mean, unfortunately, that's just the way things work.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern: Yep, that's so good. And how do people connect with you? Ron, um, LinkedIn is probably a good spot. Ron R mpfr, is my thing on LinkedIn, Instagram, pretty much most of social media, it'll be Ron R MPFR. Instagram, pretty much most of the social media, it'll be Ron R mpfr, in fact contact and drop me a line in there as well. And Ron@mpfrmedia.com, if you want to reach out advice, I'm always willing to just talk to somebody. Give you some advice, you know, if you're in a

spot of pickle, you know, give you, give you some advice. Help you out on the Sami Bedell-Mulhern: spot. Love it. Well, we'll have all of those linked up in the show notes at thefirstclick.net/291, Ron, thank you so much again for sharing all of your insights with us. No problem. Thanks you guys for having me. I appreciate the opportunity. Appreciate the time so big. Sami Bedell-Mulhern: Thank you again to Ron for joining us

today. What a great conversation. We could have probably talked for another hour or so, but I know your time is valuable. So if you want to connect with Ron, learn more, dive deeper into some of the topics that he talked about today. You can do that by grabbing all of his links at thefirstclick.net/291 can you believe we are almost getting to episode 300 which is crazy, but thank you so much for listening

while you're here, smash that subscribe button. Make sure you are following us and have those notifications on so you can get notified when a new episode drops. We have some amazing topics coming up this year still. If you want a little bit of a sneak peek, we are talking about some Google ads. We've talked about some Google Ad stuff, we've talked about curiosity. We're also going to be talking about how to stay passionate and creative, even if you're a long term development

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