[00:00:00] Josh DeTar: Welcome to another episode of the Digital Banking Podcast. My guest today is Landon Glenn, Founder and CEO of ASA. And, you know, I actually made this comment to Landon as we were discussing how to introduce him as the guest for today's episode. I don't think there's any way I can do him justice in a one-paragraph opener.
[00:01:48] So I'm gonna give it my best shot. Have you ever seen those old Dos Equis beer commercials with the most interesting man in the world? Yeah. Well, I think he has some competition with Landon. Landon is a husband and a father of four kids. And that, coupled with a personal passion, really drove him to look for better solutions to the modern financial literacy and independence problem here in the US.
[00:02:12] His excitement and passion runs so deep for supporting community FIs and their communities. He quite literally does this stuff for fun. And today, we have some really interesting topics around how open banking and standards-based technology can really allow community FIs to do the things that they want to do but have traditionally been handcuffed in the past in actually being able to accomplish.
[00:02:37] So, Landon, thanks for joining me. I'm really excited about, uh, some of the topics we have for today.
[00:02:42] Landon Glenn: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Josh.
[00:02:46] Josh DeTar: Yeah. So, hey, you know, one of the things I wanna start with and, um, I've started doing this more recently because I've been getting a lot of answers when I ask these types of questions is, you know, before we jump into some of these really big, heavy hitter kind of buzzword topics, I'd love to get just your personal definition on a few things.
[00:03:06] So, as we kind of go through this episode, folks have a little bit of a framework of how you define this buzzword or this topic. So, you know, I think one of the big ones that we're gonna touch on today is this concept of open banking. So, do you wanna maybe just walk me through a little bit of when somebody says the word open banking to you,
[00:03:24] like, what does that mean to you?
[00:03:26] Landon Glenn: Yeah, no, and I think that's really smart, right? There's no FS answer definition guide for all these different terms. And so, you know, open banking is a big one for me. And, you know, several years ago, when we were digging more into this space, I spent a lot of time researching open banking and the thoughts behind it and 'why.'
[00:03:47] And to me, it felt like it all stemmed from this desire to give consumers, customers, just everyday people, the empowerment to have control of their data and to be able to use their data for their benefit. And so it is a very, you know, noble cause of allowing the users to be able to use their data for their benefit.
[00:04:09] And the challenge is being that traditionally institutions would have that data and they felt like maybe they owned it or does the customer own it, or who feels like, you know, which person owns what, and then how do we make that data accessible in a safe and compliant way. And how do we keep, you know, as maybe the CFPB would come in, how do you help the consumers to not do things they shouldn't do?
[00:04:35] How do we protect them from themselves in some cases where they might be clicking on too many things or giving away things, or wiring money to the wrong person? And we've all heard the scams and the things that can go on out there. And so how do we provide this world where you can have your data, do anything you want with it, but it's safe?
[00:04:52] You know, and so that's, that's what I think open banking's going for. And the attempt was to really help users to have a better life, to live a better, you know, financial, you know, financially empowered outcome for their, for their future, because, you know, there's so much great technology out there.
[00:05:10] There's so many amazing things being built. And so how can we help more people take, take advantage of those pieces of technology in a safe way?
[00:05:18] Josh DeTar: I'd be interested to get your take too because I think if you look across the globe, there have been various takes on this as well. Right? Like if you use the example of the US, Europe, India, China, right, there's some pretty stark contrasts between how they have all approached this kind of quote, open banking.
[00:05:40] Right?
[00:05:41] Landon Glenn: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And you know, looking at Europe is a great example. You know, what they said is, you know, these incumbent banks need to share the data, and we want to, you know, promote competition essentially. And so what happens is the people that want to consume that data, those technology providers are going in and consuming those APIs.
[00:06:03] And then they're using the data to, in turn, try and replace the bank. And so, the end user now is able to control that access point through the standardized API and turn on the technology they want. But some of the issues there are, you know, obviously, the users don't always know who they should share their data with, or if someone may be a bad actor on the backend, and then the banks don't want to really support it because they're basically opening up their competition.
[00:06:33] And so they'll try, and if they can break something and not tell anybody they made an update for a week, "Oh yeah, sorry. We updated that." And so all the tech goes down. And so then, of course, they took the next step of neobanks and, you know, FinTech charters and allowing them to become registered financial institutions.
[00:06:51] And so, you know, the whole thing's kind of funny because we're trying to increase innovation and, you know, increase the speed at which technology can adapt and come forward. And, you know, the empowerment for the user and the answer to do that is to take the incumbent banks and then give the data to the FinTechs and have the FinTechs become competitor neobanks.
[00:07:15] And then now they're regulated to the same degree as the incumbent banks, and their innovation is gonna slow down. So the answer to speed up innovation is to turn the innovators into people who can't innovate. It's a, it's kind of a, it feels like a Catch-22 almost, right?
[00:07:29] Josh DeTar: I was gonna say, yeah, that's a funny way to think. I don't think I've ever heard it said that way, but it makes all the sense in the room.
[00:07:34] Landon Glenn: Yeah. It's, you know, there's some other things there that kind of caught when I, you know, 'cause I like to listen, you probably have heard of like FinTech Insider and other podcasts and listen to them a little bit. And they're always talking about, oh, you know, different types of things that are coming to the market.
[00:07:47] And on one episode, they said, "Man, I can't wait until there's a neobank for people that own real estate." And I started thinking about that, and I'm like, "Well, I own some real estate, and I, I wouldn't want to switch my accounts all over to a different bank. All my loans are somewhere else. And so how am I gonna move all my accounts to this new institution?
[00:08:08] And then what happens if I decide to sell the real estate? Like, do I have to switch banks now because I'm not using that technology anymore?" And so there, there starts to become this disconnect where you realize, "Well, what if I need, you know, four or five different things? Or what if, you know, I want one solution, and my wife doesn't like
[00:08:25] my tech and, but we wanna manage money at the same institution. How are we gonna allow, you know, how are we gonna get the, the technology experience she needs and the technology experience I need together?" And so there were some really big, you know, glaring issues. When you look at the open banking framework over there and just the competition and how, you know, everybody's trying to win over the same customers and really the customers, they're almost, you know, lost leading to get them in where they're a lot of those neobanks aren't profitable.
[00:08:58] They'll, they'll just wave all the fees or they'll offer a high-interest rate account for the first little while just to buy the customer in. But then what happens when the rubber meets the road? You know, where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? You've got your, you know, neobank account that has great tech, but you don't have the local branch.
[00:09:15] You can go talk to somebody when you're having, you know, an issue with something, or you need to go to an ATM or conveniently talk to somebody about your mortgage or a house you wanna buy, or your children, or something like that. You know, a lot of the things that, that financial institutions have that service that feel that local presence, the investment in their local communities, you know, where somebody knows me by name and they can, I can send an email, and they'll do whatever I need them to do.
[00:09:43] And it's the best experience ever. And you know, you're not getting that in the same way from some of these digital competitors that are popping up.
[00:09:52] Josh DeTar: Yeah. You know, you mentioned something that, I think we talk about a lot on this podcast, is this expansion and contraction that we see in markets of all types. Right? And in this example, we're talking about these different FinTechs and neobanks popping up to serve very specific niches. Right? So your example from earlier of, you know, "I can't win to lose that, a neobank that serves, you know, folks with real estate holdings."
[00:10:17] You're like, "Okay, cool. That, yeah, that'd be neat if somebody focused on that and did just that. But also, maybe what if my traditional community FI that I have all my other business with just did that for me too?" And so it'll be interesting to see as we kind of get this expansion that I think is happening right now, we get all these new pop-ups.
[00:10:37] I think one of the guys on my team actually ran this report recently was telling me something like, "There's a new FinTech born globally every 30 minutes." So, you know, we've got all these new FinTechs popping up all the time to serve very specific things. So we're expanding, right? We're giving consumers this ridiculous amount of flexibility and offerings, but at what point does that become overwhelming
[00:11:00] and people start to say, "I want the market to actually contract a little bit, and I actually just want... Can I get my credit union to service? Like, all of those other little things, or maybe just do this one area a little bit better so that I can do all of my stuff there?" I don't know. It's gonna be interesting to see.
[00:11:14] 'Cause like, from my perspective, I think right now we're in that expansion. What do you think?
[00:11:20] Landon Glenn: Yeah. You know, one of the my favorite articles is from Ron Shevlin, and he defines it as community FinTechs because obviously, you can't call these FinTechs banks if they're not technically banks, the regulation that came out on that. And, you know, what he talks about is the rise of community FinTechs and how they're redefining community banking.
[00:11:40] And what's really interesting there is that these FinTechs that you mentioned that are expanding and popping up all over, they're not doing the same things that your local credit union or your local bank is doing. They're solving problems that aren't being addressed, that are being overlooked. And it might be for the 1% or those underserved groups.
[00:12:02] And so, like say as bank here in Utah, got a bunch of funding, and they want to, you know, become the bank for Latinos, Spanish first and, you know, defined specifically for that affinity group and to serve their needs in a way that no one else can. And their goal is to win over all of the Latino customers from all of the different banks and credit unions across the country.
[00:12:24] And then you've got others that are popping up for LGBTQ or for African Americans or for young professionals or for starting a business or for FAFSA and college loans or paying down debt, et cetera. And they all have these value propositions they're trying to provide to a very hyper-personalized group of individuals. And within a community institution, whether it's a banker, a credit union's footprint, they're all geographic based.
[00:12:53] And so they might have 1000 or 2000 or 5000 different affinity needs within their group of account holders. And so it becomes impossible for them to provide one app that everyone will use, and everyone will love, and everyone will relate to you. And that's why mobile adoption, you know, typically starts to hit a point where, you know, some people are, you know, in some cases, one stat I saw recently is 88% of Americans are using FinTech now in some sort. And for some institutions, that's more than are actually using their own mobile app.
[00:13:29] And so they're having to go out and find these, well, these, providers are, are approaching the communities, and they're offering a service you can't get from your bank. And it's so appealing that you're finding this small subset is willing to switch accounts sometimes or get loans through them or switch their credit cards over.
[00:13:48] And they're trying to steal away market share from those institutions. So I do think, like you said, it's, it's a big problem because you are losing that local feel, that local touch of your local institution, all the benefits that you get in exchange for piece of technology that helps you connect with something you're interested in, you know? And I think eventually there's gonna be apps for landscapers and apps for farmers and apps for, you know, truck drivers and apps for, you know, every different industry and every single one could have their own app and technology and solution.
[00:14:21] And so, you know, seeing those problems that exist with the future of banking and open banking and where it's headed and the challenges of, you know, FinTechs trying to sell regulated products and services, and then having to have a compliance team and deal with all of that, the time to market the barriers to innovation,
[00:14:41] I really think that it's stifling innovation in a huge way because yes, like you said, there are FinTechs coming up like crazy and the, you know, born every 30 seconds and coming out all the time. But so many of them are struggling to reach their audience and go to market. And, you know, it's so difficult to bring that technology together with the bank.
[00:15:02] If you wanna go work with a bank or a credit union and bring your FinTech to market, I mean, most institutions offer zero FinTech right now. So, you know, why is that? Well, it's pretty hard to do, and they want to offer them. So, you know, that's, that's a big problem that, you know, we're working to try and solve.
[00:15:21] Josh DeTar: Yeah, I think, you know, this, the idea that you can be all things to everyone at scale is impossible, right? To your point, if you look at a community financial institution, that's got, say a hundred thousand, you know, members or customers within that a hundred thousand people. Yeah. You've probably got 8,000 different, you know, quote-unquote groups that people would group themselves into or identify as, um, to be able to flawlessly service all of them in exactly the way that they want to be serviced is next to impossible.
[00:15:51] And so you do, you start to see some of these FinTechs pop up to service those very specific groups or needs or desires. You know, I had a guest on the podcast recently, Kristi Kenworthy from Dora Financial. They're actually out of USALLIANCE Financial, which is a large credit union out in New York.
[00:16:10] And, they had a, essentially a, a, a board meeting, an executive leadership meeting where a branch manager brought up how in kind of the, the heart of the Bronx they had a branch, that was turning people away. And they said, "We feel like we are not living our credit union mission here because we just don't have the ability to service these folks in our traditional model."
[00:16:37] And Kris, their CEO, said, "Well, where are you sending them?" And apparently, he could hear a pin drop in the room. They were like, chime. And he was like, "Okay, that's great feedback. We got to fix that. Like, why are we doing that? Why can't we look for other avenues?" And so they started Dora out of this, which was really specifically designed to meet that group of people that they were turning away and help them actually get into some products that could help them to grow, gain some financial literacy, expand their relationship, but then how they've architected is to actually feed them back into than the traditional credit union model.
[00:17:23] So, as they start to grow and develop and move through the process, then Dora helps move them into any number of the participating credit unions that can then move them into their traditional model. And I thought that was a really cool way of looking at, "Okay, how can we, you know, be who we are, really good at being a community credit union with our kind of traditional model and presence?"
[00:17:47] And you know, all the things that you've talked about that are kind of the, the benefits of who they are at their core, then how can we also act like a FinTech, but do it in a kind of socially morally responsible way? I thought that was a pretty cool thing that they were doing.
[00:18:03] Landon Glenn: Yeah, that's really cool. And reminds me of, you know, I had another interesting story recently about an institution that bought a payday loan provider. And they would set up accounts for the customers when they would go in and do the payday loans. And part of each loan would go into an account. And then it was maybe on the third or fourth time in, they would say, "Hey, you've now saved up enough in your account that you don't have to do this payday loan.
[00:18:28] Here's your money. And let's, let's get you on a better path." And so, you know, I think taking that initiative to solve these problems and, you know, I think when you're a, a traditional financial institution and you've done business a certain way, you know, as you mentioned, how long did it take until the tellers passed up the chain that, "Hey, we're passing people away," and, "Oh, okay.
[00:18:50] Why?" You know, so there's time that it's, that it's being lost. And so getting them, you know, to be able to have the ability to offer those innovations and those other products is, is really big. And so I think that's super impressive. And of course, with my, you know, background in financial literacy, that's something I'm really excited about and, and passionate about.
[00:19:12] And we actually have, I've seen some other great FinTechs that are working on that education space, building credit and then bringing people back to the banker credit union, and so I know that's, there's a huge opportunity there.
[00:19:24] Josh DeTar: Well, and that also kind of goes to one of the topics you brought up earlier of just then the ability for the consumer to move. Right? So if all of a sudden I do decide, you know, based on the stage of my life or whatever may be happening or whatever is important to me or whatever products and services I need to consume or whatever help I need today, may not be the same forever.
[00:19:45] And at some point, that may change, and I may need to migrate. And maybe I need to migrate just products and services within the institution I'm already a part of, or maybe I do need to migrate to a totally different institution. And how does that happen? Right? I mean, you know, I sh really, probably should look up this statistic before using it as a, an example here, but, you know, I'd be curious to see just how many times, you know, folks actually change financial institutions anymore.
[00:20:11] Right? I mean, I know previously, it's one of those, a few times in a lifetime type of events. And it's usually around a massive event. And so what if that was a little bit easier? And what if you, the community FI, actually provided ways for people to do that, where we actually retained the business within the community
[00:20:32] FI space? And again, I think that's kind of what, you know, they're trying to do with Dora is, "Let's give them the opportunity to do that, but then let's also make technology mechanisms that make it really easy for this person to transition over to a different model, a different institution." And that kind of goes back to what you were talking about of just, you know, how easy, easy is it to actually move.
[00:20:55] And that's where we see some of those differences in how, you know, other countries or Europe have approached that too. I think you agree.
[00:21:01] Landon Glenn: Yeah, I think so. And I, I think I read a report. I think it was the CFPB recently that talked about the portability of accounts and they're challenging or tasking some initiatives to try and figure out how to solve that a little bit because it is something that's extremely difficult. And you know, when you think about who is moving and why, you know, many times they'll stick with the bank, and they'll still be a customer, or they'll stick with the credit union, and they'll still be a member, but
[00:21:30] they'll start to kind of, I call it, cheat on their institution 'cause they're going to the Apple App Store, and they're downloading something that does something that they can't get from their institution. And, you know, when you think about it that way, it is very hard to compete with the budgets of someone like a Chase bank or a Bank of America that have, you know, billions of dollars to spend on technology.
[00:21:53] But the people that are most successfully doing it are gonna be those FinTech disruptors because they have solutions that even with billions and billions of dollars of budget, these institutions can't offer. They don't have the money to do it. It's not possible, as you said, to be everything to everyone.
[00:22:12] And so one of my favorite examples of that is if you look at the cell phone industry. I mean, back in, you know, the early 2000s, Blackberry was the global leader. And I thought it was the best thing in the world. I said, "This doesn't get any better than this. This thing can do everything. I've got internet, I've got email. This is amazing.
[00:22:32] I can do..." You know? And then Steve Jobs comes out with this thing, and he's like, "Hey guys, we're gonna, we're gonna build an App Store." And I remember being like, "That's dumb. Nobody's gonna want that."
[00:22:43] Josh DeTar: Hindsight's 2020 on that one.
[00:22:45] Landon Glenn: You look at it, you're like... Well, just because I, I didn't know why I would use it. I didn't understand it. It didn't make sense to me.
[00:22:51] But within 12 months, they had 75,000 apps and a billion downloads. And it transformed the industry. The way that you interact with your technology will never be the same. And so they figured out a way to be everything to everyone. And it's through the platform affected their marketplace where independent developers, independent creators can build technology and bring it to market.
[00:23:19] And they're able to work together with Apple to solve people's problems. And it's a collaborative model because Apple makes money off of all the different providers, and the providers use Apple to go to market. And that's why Apple became, I think, what, what did they hit the first? Like $2 trillion company
[00:23:34] at one point? There was something in the news a couple years ago, maybe. And, you know, obviously, they are doing very well. And it's because they've solved for something an incredible platform. And, you know, there was only room for maybe a couple of them in the industry. Google Play has theirs, I think, was it Microsoft tried to launch one, but they were too late,
[00:23:52] couldn't get in. And so, you know, this problem and, and solving that problem, I think it's made it so that your cell phone is now your cell phone. You know? Even though it's the exact same device, it's identical in every way, you know, for the most part, may maybe a few features or a year old or whatever, versus the person next to you.
[00:24:13] It's the exact same thing every time,
[00:24:16] the apps you download, what you look at, where you spend your time. And I would, you know, be surprised if, you know, I don't think there's one single phone out there that is like my phone, that has the same apps, the same setups, the same, you know, deal the way I like it.
[00:24:31] And it's my own. I own it. I control it. And I'm able to, I'm empowered. It's exactly what the CFPB wanted, or it's exactly what, you know, open banking wanted. The whole mission of it was to empower consumers to take control of their data and to have a better life. And that's what we've been able to do in the cell phone industry.
[00:24:49] And so you look at it and say, "Well, why haven't we've been able to do it in banking? What's stopping us?" Well, it's the regulatory and the compliance risk. It's the issues around all of the marketplaces that have been attempted and the reasons that they've failed. And the, it's the sharing of regulated data,
[00:25:09] it's the sh... You know, one of the first things I started looking into a few years ago was reading the, the banking regulations and understanding, "Well, how does it work when you interact with FinTech?" And understanding, "Okay. Even if all you're doing is sharing an account number, sharing any personal data with these FinTechs, many times they become an extension of the credit union or extension of the bank from a liability standpoint."
[00:25:32] So you have to do audits. You have to, you know, go in and deal with that. And so that liability carries across. And right now, there's really these other solutions out there with open banking. And you look at anything that's providing data sharing. They're all sharing that private data so that liability carries across with it.
[00:25:51] And that's why you see that extensive third-party vendor due diligence, the time to market the cost. You know, FinTechs having to spend significant amounts of money on security and compliance and, you know, SOC 2 and getting compliance teams in place. And so, you know, what could be done in a weekend hackathon to get something in someone's hands?
[00:26:12] You know, like I would love to see an app for kids when they turned 18 to help them build credit. You know, I have my own story on that, but my, my older brother, when I turned 18, he was an accounting major, and he helped me set up my first credit card. And I, I didn't know why, I didn't even know what it was. At a hundred dollars limit
[00:26:30] and he told me to charge it up each month and I did. And then I would pay it in full each month. And I did that as he directed. I didn't understand why, but I trusted him. You know, he was senior class president, really good at football and high school, and I looked up to him a ton. And you know, I did what he said.
[00:26:47] And within a few years, my limit started going up. And then, when I was 22 years old, I bought my first real estate. And so I was in a position because I had a big brother. I had a mentor. And how many people in America don't have that mentor? They don't have that big brother. And so imagine an app that could take you under their wing
[00:27:07] when you turn 18. You could have your child sign up for it, and it would get them their first credit card. And it would have some safety measures in place where if they don't pay the bill at ACHS, you know, dad's account. Pays it off and then it locks the credit card till they pay dad back or... You know, whatever you want to do to get them. You know, I don't know, I think of it
[00:27:26] some like you're bowling, and you've got the bumpers up, you know? Little safety net for these, uh, new financial explorers, trying to figure out their lives. And you know, if they don't have that mentor in place, we can now, as a society, provide that mentorship, and that technology should be in every institution in America today.
[00:27:46] And it's not in any of them. And it could be built in probably a week. And it's not that complicated. What's complicated are the barriers to innovation and how challenging it is to get those providers in. And so that's what, you know, ultimately we felt needed to be solved for.
[00:28:03] Josh DeTar: I
[00:28:03] think all of our listeners just realized what I was talking about when I said there's no way I can really introduce you in one paragraph. Because of how many awesome things you just dropped in that... It's actually really funny timing that you bring that up and kind of your personal story too.
[00:28:20] We actually released a blog post this morning, highlighting my story and how a credit union really saved me from poor financial decisions. And how, literally just like you, you know, they opened up a $200 line of credit for me that I still have to this day. And I've never canceled that product. I've never changed the limit.
[00:28:42] And it's just a constant reminder to me of what somebody did for me and how to be smarter about my finances. And, you know, I call it the everybody needs a Mayree, right? Because mine was Mayree from my credit union. And she's the one who sat me down and really educated me and protected me and put those bumpers up for me. And really took me to where I am today.
[00:29:02] And, ah, man, I'm so with you on this one. Like everybody needs a Mayree. Everybody needs somebody to help guide them. They need that big brother who, you know, has that expertise and knows how to set somebody up for success. And so many people just don't get the opportunity to have that. And so they, unfortunately, get put in positions that then become really hard to get out of that we could have just solved for, by never getting them into that place in the first place.
[00:29:27] And you know, as you talk about just how easy quote it would be to solve some of these problems with technology, you know, that is one of the things that I find really fascinating about our industry because of the different regulatory barriers, because of a lot of the different legacy technology barriers and just the inability to actually move quick.
[00:29:47] Josh DeTar: I don't know, a single credit union or community bank, whether you're a hundred million in assets or, you know, 50 billion in assets that is gonna move at the speed of a VC-backed Silicon Valley tech company. Right? That's really focused on a very specific niche. The problem then is, okay, so does that then go out into the market as a direct consumer product and actually compete with the traditional community FI business model?
[00:30:16] Or can we actually augment our business model by providing that? And like you were talking about, I mean, there's just so many barriers left and right to being able to actually accomplish that. And you know, one of the things I really wanted to talk to you about is just, I mean, let's leave the regulatory and compliance stuff to the side.
[00:30:34] 'Cause that's a whole other beast that, that's gonna take some, you know, some tackling over decades of lobbying and all sorts of different things. But from a technology standpoint, those are things we can work on, I think a little bit faster, or just from a different approach. And that has to do with just being able to have some standards-based approach to this.
[00:30:55] Right? And you know, I'm gonna really, really simplify it for people like me that are listening. You know, the problem is, is that we've got, you know, the credit union, and they're speaking English, and then we bring in this technology provider, and they're speaking Spanish. And then they're just unable to talk to each other.
[00:31:13] But if they both spoke Spanish, bada bing bada boom. Like, "We're done." Like, "We're we're on the road." Right? But especially when you look at all of these different FinTechs popping up, now, now we don't just have like the FI speaking English, and the FinTechs speak Spanish. It's the FI over here speaks English,
[00:31:31] the FI over here speaks French. This FinTech speaks Spanish. This one speaks Portuguese. This one speaks Mandarin. You're like, "Well, crap. Like none of us can talk to each other."
[00:31:41] Landon Glenn: And then I'll ask to go through the core, which is in like ancient Egyptian.
[00:31:45] Josh DeTar: Yeah, yeah, exactly. "This is hieroglyphs. So, uh, no one on the planet knows how to speak it anymore. So sorry about that."
[00:31:54] Landon Glenn: Oh, I love it. No, there's so many good things going through my mind as you're speaking there. And, you know, I do think that that, you know, having that empowerment and having that technology is so important and we will put that aside. But I have a, one of my best friends from college, his father-in-law is CEO of a credit union and has been for many years.
[00:32:11] And, you know, he said several times, "Ah, why, I wish I had better technology for investing and, and for, you know, whatever else, paying off debt or whatever the case may be." Right? And they wonder, "Well, why can't I get that technology?" And they don't understand the compliance, the barriers, how hard it is and the different, you know, you, you might have expertise in one thing, but the technology people at the credit union don't have any experience in maybe APIs or rest for APIs, or maybe they don't have experience in a different piece of it.
[00:32:42] And so you start to look at that and realize that there's some huge challenges there. Because you know, when I was at Banzai doing financial education, I realized very quickly that it's one thing to educate, you know, kids. It's another thing to educate adults and change their behavior. It's, it's very hard to get adults to change their behavior in a meaningful way.
[00:33:05] And so, you start to realize many of them just need someone that can help them figure it out and help them do things. And kind of that mentor, kind of that guide. And so, you know, those apps that can help you run your business or manage your expenses. I mean, look at the success that Divvy has had, right?
[00:33:23] Selling for $2.5 billion to Bill.com and it's just an expense management solution. And so, it's they're offering things that you just can't get from your institution. And those solutions are becoming super popular. And so bringing that all back full circle to having, you know, as you mentioned, kind of a standardized setup, I think even that's kind of challenging because the vast majority of financial institutions out there
[00:33:52] are never gonna have either the budgets or the expertise, or they know how to build their own proprietary restful APIs that consume their core, and can be put into a system to be, you know, output or connected into the tech you want. And so there's some huge challenges therein, even if we have a standard or which we do have, you know, different standards. And, you know, even if everyone wanted to adopt it, very few people are gonna have the budgets, the expertise, and the time to be able to figure out and execute on that vision.
[00:34:23] Josh DeTar: You know, you made a comment earlier that I found really fascinating and you used kind of Apple as the example of this. Right? And I think sometimes we, you know, we talk trash about the big ones, the, you know, Amazons, the Apples, the Facebooks, some of these massive technology companies for maybe, you know, their size,
[00:34:43] their revenue and, and all of these things and, and how they're kind of monopolies, but there also is a lot of benefit and power in what they're doing. And you use the example of Apple creating the App Store, right? And so now Apple, yes, is one company, but they're able to be all things to everyone because they just opened up a platform and a marketplace for other companies to provide those niches.
[00:35:10] Josh DeTar: So Apple's not creating every app within the Apple App Store. They're allowing it to open source and have other people contribute to this marketplace. And then, as Landon's setting up his phone and he says, "Okay, these are the things that Apple provides, but I also want something that allows me to, I don't know... I'd like to be able to lob birds with a slingshot at pigs. Oh, there's an app for that. Like, sweet." Right? So it, it gives you this marketplace platform where you can kind of drag and drop for a better term of the things that you want to kind of personalize your experience. And I think that that would be something that would be really interesting to see. I know there have been, you know, different attempts to kind of make this happen in financial services, but, you know, how awesome would it be if I could have my credit union, and then I, as the credit union, want to add, I don't know, financial literacy or a youth banking program.
[00:36:08] And I just go to the marketplace, and I drag and drop. And in two days I have a new product offering. Right? Or even down to the more granular level of an actual end user. And being able to say, "Okay, well, here's the digital banking provided by my credit union, but you know, I have a, a new team in the house, and I wanna start teaching them financial literacy.
[00:36:28] And I'd like to open up an account with them, but I'd like these roles and permissions associated. So I'm gonna drag and drop an ad, you know, this platform into it, so I can manage that." And, and that kind of goes back to your whole concept at the very beginning of just giving consumers the power to choose and then the power to move and implement.
[00:36:46] But, uh, I think that's kind of a, a lofty goal, 'cause there's a lot of things from just the technology, like you were saying, the regulatory side of things that actually have to, those barriers have to come down before that's ever even possible.
[00:36:56] Landon Glenn: Yeah. And you know what you're describing in a way, it, it exists today with your Apple App Store. You can go download the FinTech that'll do whatever you want. And the problem or the friction that you see is when you want to connect in your bank account. And so I was an early adopter of mint.com, and I was, you know, connecting in my accounts. And it felt like every time I logged in, half the connections were broken.
[00:37:20] And so, "Okay. Like how do I, I'm spending half my time fixing things." And it just became too much friction. And I, I walked and, and talking with other people, that's one of the biggest friction points is not being able to connect into the technology that they're trying to use. And so that's one pain point is the reliability of the connections.
[00:37:41] But the other pain point that you see in this open banking world that, you know, we have with, with, um, you know, Plaid as an example, is that, you know, they launched their direct deposit switchover program. So they're saying, "Well, if your FinTech's not working with your local institution, switch your direct deposit over to us
[00:38:00] and we'll make sure you're taken care of." And so they're trying to put the dagger in the heart of community banking by taking their customers and their direct deposits and you know, some of the most valuable parts of that relationship. And we know how hard it is to get people to switch to institutions, but people are actually doing it for, for technology
[00:38:20] sometimes. They're saying, "Okay, you know what? Because I don't have the experience I want, I'm willing to go through that hassle of moving everything over." And so that whole world where we've gone with open banking is it's highly competitive. And they're basically taking the data from the institutions and using it to make a bunch of money and sell to all the different FinTechs.
[00:38:44] That whole app store is getting the data, but they're buying it not... Instead of getting it from the bank, who has the data, they're paying someone else for it. And so they're paying somebody else. The bank doesn't get paid anything. And then in addition to that, to make matters even worse, these FinTechs are disintermediated from the bank.
[00:39:01] They have no relationship with them. They, their relationship is with Plaid, that's who they're paying. And so they can't send opportunities or leads or business or anything back to the local bank who already is servicing that customer because they have no relationship. And so what happens is, you know, they end up offering you credit cards through Stripe or checking account through Ally Bank, or an auto loan through Ally Bank or whatever.
[00:39:25] And they all are pushing you to these national brands or these non-local institutions. And they're trying to, you know, disrupt the industry. And so, you know, I think the problem is, we, the customers want this technology we've seen that with the explosion in FinTech adoption, explosion in FinTech use.
[00:39:44] We're not gonna be able to put the lid back on this thing. It's done. And so they're gonna go out and get it. The question is, how do we find a path forward where everybody wins? And so that's where, you know, that whole concept of, you know, I think just to kind of refer back to Ron Shevlin again of embed embedded FinTech comes into mind. You know, where you look at embedded finance, that would be more of a model where the FinTechs are utilizing or embedding banking products or services into their solution.
[00:40:15] And they're using those services to get new customers for themselves. And so they're keeping the majority of the revenue. There's some issues there. And...
[00:40:25] Josh DeTar: I'm so glad you used Plaid as an example. Yeah. Sorry. You were gonna say?
[00:40:30] Landon Glenn: Yeah. And then with embedded FinTech, it's just the opposite. That instead of the FinTech using the bank's products to get customers for themselves, and by extension becoming banks and having to deal with the regulation, the compliance, the, the risks, I mean, we know how that goes. It's the opposite where the FinTech is able to be embedded in a sense where now they're getting new customers for
[00:40:53] the bank. And so the bank is providing those regulated products and services instead of the FinTech. The FinTech doesn't have to worry about the compliance, the regulatory barriers. And so I think that kind of that's transformational for the industry. And we've kind of coined it. We call it “collaborative banking.”
[00:41:09] It's a model where the FinTechs and the banks and credit unions can innovate together. They can scale together. And it's all designed to serve and empower the end user to take control of their finances in a private, secure and compliant way. And so kind of a lot to unpack in all of that, but that's kind of... I, you know, there are some issues with how people are consuming technology today, and they're not happy about it.
[00:41:36] Josh DeTar: You know, I was just, uh, in Kansas City for a conference this week. And, um, I have to give them the shout-out 'cause I'm gonna use a term that I'm, if I'm being honest, I've heard other places, but it was their tagline, so it's stuck in my head right now. We were at the Kansas City, uh, soccer stadium for the conference
[00:41:54] and, um, Mazuma Credit Union was one of the sponsors of the, the stadium. And so their logo was up there and said, you know, "People Over Profit". and I think when we talk about the interactions of, you know, some of the different FinTechs and, you know, how they approach dealing with consumers compared to how, you know, the traditional community FIs that we know and love, treat their consumers and look at them as a, you know, a revenue streams. It's very, very different.
[00:42:26] Right? And it's something that we've talked about with numerous guests on this podcast is, you know, are they, are the FinTechs here to eat your lunch, to eat lunch with you or to serve you lunch? Right? And that was something I got from, uh, Don from Quilo. And I think Plaid is a great example of that.
[00:42:46] And that's why I say it. I think that this is, is cool that you brought that up as an example is, you know, how many of our community FIs are telling us, "Hey, I, I need to have that integration to Plaid, right? My members, my customers, they're demanding this technology. They wanna make it easier to be able to connect external accounts for funding or an external account to view their balances within our app.
[00:43:08] And so we, we need Plaid." You go, "Okay, cool. Well, let's go sign you up for Plaid." So, okay, so we're gonna pay Plaid for this service. And then in turn, Plaid's gonna take my money. And they're gonna take my data. And then they're gonna use my data to take my customers. So I'm paying Plaid to take my customers.
[00:43:24] You're like, "This is a super cool business model if you're Plaid."
[00:43:28] Landon Glenn: I know. They're just accelerating their own disruption, you know? And one of, one of the, one of our early, uh, investor advisors, the head architect of Zelle, he, when we first met with him, he said, "Look, I think over the next," it was 5 to 10 years, and this was three years ago. He said, "I think 2000 to 4,000 institutions are gonna either disappear or merge or fall behind."
[00:43:49] And he said, "The reason is because of the accelerating pace of technology and innovation. They're just not, it's not gonna be possible to keep up." And so, you know, I think that you nailed it on the head, these institutions. They don't have an answer because when the customer's paying 10 bucks a month for their budget widget, or their investment or their acorns or their Robin Hood or whatever they're doing, and then it breaks and they call up their FinTech and say, "Hey, my stuff's broken."
[00:44:18] What's the FinTech gonna say? "Well, your, your bank broke it. Your credit union broke it." "Well, what do you mean?" Yeah, they changed something. "Oh, you mean they made my account secure, so you can't log in as if you were me and screen scrape all my data and have full access to my bank account and all my money and all of that?
[00:44:36] Okay." And the customers are mad about that. They're mad that their money is being protected. And that, you know, they can't easily give away access to their bank account to these people to go lock in and have access to their money. It's, it's crazy. Nobody likes it, you know? I, I read a statistic that over 80% of Americans don't understand what they're giving away, what's happening with their data completely.
[00:44:59] But when you ask them, "Do you like when you go try out a new app that they're making you give them your bank or your credit union username and passwords to all of your money?" And they say, "No. I don't like it." And they do it anyway because there's no other choice. There's no other choice. And it, you know, if they truly understood, you know, how much that data is worth and how it's being mined and how it's not being used.
[00:45:24] So it's the whole purpose of it is this noble cause on the front end of having this standardized API, easy to get into, "Give us all access to your data. Let, you know, let us in." But then the outcome of it is data mining, customer data being mined and not really for their best interest. And so I was at the University of Utah doing a presentation at the end of last semester.
[00:45:48] They have a major in FinTech now. It's pretty, pretty cool stuff. They're, they're really moving things forward there. And we talked quite a bit about the industry and some of the issues and problems. And you know, when we were talking a little bit about this collaborative future that we envision, uh, we think it's a better path forward for the industry,
[00:46:06] they said, "Well, what are you gonna do with our data?" And I said, "Well, nothing. Whatever you want us to do. Whatever, we're gonna help you use it to get the things you want from your credit union. You want another credit card? You want another loan? You want another account? That data's there?" They're like, "Well, yeah, but what are you really doing?"
[00:46:21] I said, "Nothing." Like, "Wow." And so you're seeing this trend flip back around where the next generation is starting to get fatigue of how much their data is being used and how, how valuable their data is, and they wanna know what's happening. And so I think it's really refreshing to be able to solve some of those privacy issues.
[00:46:40] Josh DeTar: Yeah. Is, it is really fascinating how we as consumers and , you know, I mean, I, I guarantee if you and I look deep enough, we can find examples in our own lives of where we even came to this where, you know, convenience or experience wins over a lot of other things. And so, you know, we see that another great example is with Intuit, right?
[00:47:05] And Intuit's very similar in how Plaid is doing things. And we get to pay them money so they can come in and screen scrape to be able to connect to, you know, Quicken and QuickBooks and happily give it away. Right? And, um, I think a lot of folks, yeah, when you talk to them and you say, "Hey, you're, you're giving away all of this, this information, this data that's valuable.
[00:47:29] Do you want that to be happening?" They go, "Oh gosh. No." And then when you say, "Okay, cool. But then, so now you're gonna have to manually export all of those, put them into a spreadsheet, track your expenses." They're like, "Oh gosh, no. Yeah, yeah." Uh, Intuit gave
[00:47:45] it, "Here's
[00:47:45] Landon Glenn: Never mind. Let's...
[00:47:46] Josh DeTar: my credentials. Knock yourself out.
[00:47:48] Go to town". Yep. Yep. All...
[00:47:49] Landon Glenn: "Just don't take all my money." Just kidding now.
[00:47:52] Josh DeTar: Yeah, exactly, "Just don't take all my money right out in front of me, but you can do it slowly over time and in different ways. That's cool."
[00:47:58] I.
[00:47:59] Landon Glenn: Yeah, it is interesting. And, you know, I think that convenience is such a, a powerful thing. And so, you know, what we started analyzing is, "Okay, well, what...?" Convenience is so important, and so where is their friction in the current open banking model? Well, obviously, the vast majority of complaints that credit unions and banks are getting at their call centers related to open banking or FinTech is connections breaking.
[00:48:25] And that's why they're saying, "Well, we better buy Plaid. We better do it because it's the only way we can get the bleeding to stop," because there's all this reputational risk from these solutions. They have nothing to do with. It's not their app. It's not their tool, and they're getting complaints, and it's damaging their reputation online, and their customers are threatening to leave because they can’t
[00:48:45] make the tech they want work. And so, you know, that's, there's a bit of friction there and, you know, then the other bits, you know, the, the other frictions come in with the re-authenticating constantly. You know, people constantly tell me, well, with my Cash App or my Coinbase or whatever thing they're trying to connect, they're having to reauthenticate on a pretty regular basis.
[00:49:05] So that time, the work, having to go into each app one by one and share your credentials. And, you know, if you're using five different FinTechs and a connection goes down with your, with your bank, then you've got to go in and fix five FinTechs five times now. So there's, there's a lot of, duplicative efforts there.
[00:49:22] So, you know, one of the messages that we've been starting to share with these community institutions that are struggling with what to do and, and how to partner with FinTech, they want you, they just, they don't know how is, you know, when those users call in and complain that their apps aren't working anymore,
[00:49:41] and they say, "Well, my connection went down. What's going on? What are you guys are, what are you guys doing?" They can now have a response to say, "Well, you know, you shouldn't really be sharing your usernames, passwords, access to your bank account with these third parties anyways, and all that private data.
[00:49:58] And it's not a, it's not a good move. It's not safe." And so we have a safe, compliant way for you to be able to share that data. And so it's really about giving the institutions an answer. And they haven't had one and there's been no other game in town. And I don't think that the FinTechs really love it either.
[00:50:14] You know, they're just as frustrated as the users and the banks. Everyone's frustrated with this, but it's kind of like, I don't know, a decade ago or whatever it was, you know, obviously there was Yodlee first and some of the others that were, you know, earlier in the aggregator space, but it's like, they woke up and said, "Man, all these FinTechs want data and the banks won't give it to them." They're just saying, "Oh no, go away.
[00:50:34] We don't, we're not, we can't help." You said, "We'll get you the data. Just give us your credentials. We'll go log into your bank and get it." And then it's become these multi-billion dollar companies on just accessing the data. And so, you know, there is a huge opportunity to build something, uh, safer, more compliant and bank-friendly.
[00:50:54] Josh DeTar: Yeah, as you were talking, I was like, "Man, it's like..." We're talking about open banking. Right? And we have it in some senses, but it's like, side A is open to side B, but what's in between is a road and it's, you know, the game Frogger. It's like best of luck. Like you got to get yourself across and it's gonna keep breaking, and you got to go back to go or, you know, start at the beginning.
[00:51:17] And so, you know, if you're a community FI that's listening to this episode, you know, what are your thoughts on, I've got to imagine if I put myself in their seat, right? They're sitting, they're going, "Yeah, guys. I mean, this is all well and good." Right? I want to have better ways to do things. I want to have more offerings.
[00:51:33] I want to have more technology. You know, we're, we're dealing with it on two fronts where our members, our customers, our consumers are telling us, "Don't care. I want this. You go get it for me. Make it happen." And at the same time, you know, they're struggling to actually be able to innovate and add these different products and services and features because of all the reasons that we've talked about. Like,
[00:51:57] what are they to do? I mean, you can't, you can't go tell a 500-million dollar asset size credit union, "It's super simple. You just go grab all these different FinTechs that your members want, you plug them in, bada bing bada boom. You beat all the FinTechs." So what do they do? Where do they start, man?
[00:52:16] Landon Glenn: Yeah, I think that's a really important question. And you know, I, as you mentioned, the challenges they have, I, you know, I've talked to institutions that have spent millions of dollars on consulting plans to try and build a path forward for the industry. It's a three-year or a five-year plan. And at the end of the three years or five years, they're gonna have five FinTechs.
[00:52:36] The problem is the average consumers already got 5.5 FinTechs downloaded on their device. And so if you're gonna plan on having five FinTechs in five years, that's that's way too slow. I think the pace at which things are moving has gone up so fast. It's not really possible under the current rails for these institutions to be able to do
[00:52:57] what they need to do to keep up. You know, if their customers are telling them, "Hey, I need this all and I need it now," you know, the institutions have to have a place where they can go to and say, "Hey, I need all this stuff, and I need it now." And that's why we built the collaborative banking rails, uh, a model that, you know, is able to solve those compliance regulatory risks and third-party vendor due diligence around FinTech.
[00:53:21] And we know the budgets of these institutions are, are challenged. And so rather than asking them to build their own APIs and build into their core, ASA's built a team of industry experts that can come in and build into your core, build those APIs for you. And then, instead of the institution having to pick and choose, "Okay, here's the five apps
[00:53:42] I think that I need to be competitive with the 10,000," or however many thousand FinTech there are out there today, it's allowing the end user to be in control of their data for the first time ever. They're the ones that get a pick what apps they use. You know, new apps can be turned on for free.
[00:53:59] There's no integration, the FinTech doesn't interact with the core. And so, you know, we're doing something that's never been done before and it's potentially industry-defining. And so, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, it's, it's like the Apple App Store until, you know, at first I was like, "What?
[00:54:16] I don't even understand the problem you're solving for me", you know? And I think, it sometimes that's the challenge we have with what we're doing is it there's a lot to it. And, you know, our message to these financial institutions is that if we try and compete head to head, it's gonna be a, a difficult world.
[00:54:33] But if we can make the path of least resistance, enticing these FinTechs to not go out and become banks or treated like banks with SOC 2 and PCI and selling regulated products and quoting rates and all those things. If we can entice them to not do that, but to instead come in in a collaborative fashion, then their goal is gonna be customer acquisition and bringing those increased wallet share that increased acquisition, the increased engagement, because they have that affinity solution.
[00:55:04] And for the first time, we can have a world where affinity meets community. So those community geographically bound institutions will become the backbone of all of the products you use, the, the loans and the accounts and the services and all the regulated pieces. And then, if you want an app for green, renewable energy or some affinity-based solution that meets your values and your goals, then you're able to have that app empower it by your existing
[00:55:33] relationship you have at your bank. And so, it's a, a pretty exciting thing that we've been working on and something that, you know, I think is gonna help empower individuals to get help with their finances in a way they haven't been able to before.
[00:55:46] Josh DeTar: So, if you look at the examples that we have that are out there today, what is kind of your hope that the US takes those learnings and examples and says, "All right, we're gonna implement open banking right." What do you think that means?
[00:56:02] Landon Glenn: Yeah. You know, my thought process on that, and we have a chance to ha, you know, go to a lunch with the CFPB representative next month and talk about what that means and talk about the issues around privacy and data mining and security. And we think the answer is that the consumer should own and control their data, and they should have the ability to turn on technology without disclosing their name,
[00:56:28] their email address, their banking account information. And the technology is able to be powered through the transactional information or whatever it is in a way where the bank still manages and owns that relationship. So they are the regulated entity behind that front end. And you know, a lot of those issues where you see, you know, a lot of people don't know the founders of Venmo almost went to jail because they weren't KYC properly early on.
[00:56:55] And, you know, you could put a stolen credit card on there and offload all the money. And they had hundreds of thousands of dollars disappearing, and they got bought out by Braintree, who's about 10 minutes from our office here in Utah, that were right here with, you know, Divvy and MX and Finicity and all the, you know, the former owner of Finicity is about 10 minutes from my house too.
[00:57:14] And a lot of FinTech stuff going on around, around these parts. But anyways, they flipped it to PayPal for, you know, and made hundreds of millions of dollars off of the transaction. So, you know, we know that a lot of these FinTechs, they don't have the compliance experience and the team and the complications of the industry.
[00:57:32] And even if they did, they're gonna lose the innovation and the speed at which they can move. And so we think that each party should focus on their core competency, and for the banks and credit unions, they are the trusted custodians of your accounts, your money, all of the products, the services, the lending. And for the FinTech, they are the front-end UX
[00:57:54] that's gonna provide you the most cutting edge experiences that, uh, you might want for, you know, a cultural demographic or a business need that you can't get currently from your bank.
[00:58:04] Josh DeTar: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, Landon. you know, when we look at the community FIs, the credit unions, community banks, I really, and truly believe they need to stop being shy about how awesome they are. Right? That's actually pretty cool. One of our, uh, customers is a small credit union out of a, you know, small town in Idaho, East Idaho Credit Union, and shout out to their team.
[00:58:27] They just had a TikTok video that just went true viral status. I think in less than a week, just looked a couple of days ago, it was like 1.5 million views. Right? And literally, all they were doing was just being themselves and just showing, "Hey, like we are here. We are present in this community and we care.
[00:58:45] And these are our people, and we care about their success and their financial future." That's it. They're not trying to be salesy. They're not trying to push some alternate agenda. They're like, "Hey, this is just, this is who we are. We're being real. This is our community. These are our people. We want to see it succeed."
[00:59:03] Right? And I think that goes back to what we've been talking about a lot through this is that you do you see, you know, there are different motivations behind different companies, right? And I think, again, this is one of the reasons why I was really excited to talk to you is, it's very obvious for the motivations are behind the different companies that you've been involved in, in this space.
[00:59:21] And it's not to buy a second mega yacht, right? It's because we actually care about, "I want to see success happen." And success happens through a lot of different ways, and it looks different for a lot of people, but, you know, giving people, especially around peace of mind and security in their financial lives, is huge.
[00:59:42] Josh DeTar: And if you look at a community FI, that's what they care about. And if you look at a FinTech, I don't know, throw a dart at the dartboard, man. They may care. They may not care. And so, you know, trying to weed through that, find the right ones, work with them, to just empower the good that we're doing here in this industry, I have a pretty noble cause.
[01:00:03] And it's, I, I don't know. It's, it's why I've gotten so excited about doing this podcast is I've just gotten such a cool opportunity to talk to people like you that reinvigorate me and remind me that what we were doing is, is actually making a difference, like this is, "Yeah, I'm just, now I'm here to sell some digital banking." But it's way more than that.
[01:00:25] And, and that's pretty cool. And so it's really neat to see guests like you come on that, that really believe in that mission and are trying to find ways to say, "There's innovation happening. How do I help enable that in the philosophy and the culture and the mindset of the community FI?" Because I've seen the impact that it has in the communities that they serve at the end of the day.
[01:00:47] Landon Glenn: Yeah, I love that so much. And you know, local institutions are so important to our community and having spent time in, you know, with Banzai working with a large number of them, they did so much for the kids, visiting classes, helping, giving back education, just serving, and they were just excited to participate.
[01:01:07] And that's so refreshing to see. And you know, one of the things that stuck to me is we can't lose these staples in our communities. It's not gonna be as good of a society if we don't have those institutions holding down each local community. And there's so many venture dollars going into disruption, whether they're wanting to disrupt, you know, banks or banking or DeFi, or, you know, disrupt the core processors, they all want to, it's like they want to take those incumbents and just, you know, destroy them and replace them and make something, make a new world where they're they're the ones running it.
[01:01:44] And I think that that was one of the things that, we made central to our mission is that collaborative creation of opportunity, the, the world where the institutions, the credit unions, the cores, they can all win. You know, even our PR firm, they said, "You're one of the first companies we've ever said that said, we want our job to be making the core look good.
[01:02:06] You know, we want them to have an awesome experience." And I'm like, "Yes. Why not? Like if everybody's happy and everybody's getting what they want out of their core and their technology, then the credit union's gonna increase revenue. The members are gonna increase engagement. They're gonna increase their wealth.
[01:02:21] Everybody's gonna have bigger account balances and their savings, and they're all gonna have a better future. There's so much to go around. And so one of, I took a personality test pretty recently. You probably taken the Enneagram test, and really fun. My sister sent one around and she said, "I know what type you're gonna be,
[01:02:37] and was it right." And I was reading through it afterwards and I'm like, "Man, have they been like watching me?" It's funny how...
[01:02:43] Josh DeTar: I know. Those things are creepy,
[01:02:45] accurate. Aren't they? Yeah.
[01:02:47] Landon Glenn: One of my favorite lines from it, it says one of the things you're passionate about is creating opportunity for others and giving others a chance to succeed and, to grow.
[01:02:58] And that's what I see my role in business as always being is creating opportunity for people to succeed and making sure that all of our practices are win-wins, from the pricing to the policies to everything that we're doing. And I think what we're gonna be enabling is this level of innovation that hasn't been possible.
[01:03:22] You know, some of our partners are already looking at building out innovation labs, you know, universities to solve money problems and bring them to market quickly and seamlessly. I would love to see the world where we have thousands or even tens of thousands of apps available and people can choose from and use them seamlessly
[01:03:42] powered by, you know, their local credit union, their local bank is the gateway to all of the technology they need, they love. And then behind that is their core, powering everything. And so, you know, they there's so much importance to each of the parties in this, you know, chain of, of providers and cutting one out or replacing one.
[01:04:02] I just, I don't, there's, there's too much at stake, you know? There, the compliance, the regulatory, the risk, the, the decades of experience, the security in place of these core processes. There's so many things we just have to have from them. I think it's important to build a world where we can all shine and we can all grow together.
[01:04:20] It's an ecosystem, right? None of us can do this on our own. Period. Whether it be the, the credit union, whether it be the FinTech, whether it be the core, it doesn't matter. Like we all stand on each other's shoulders and we really need this to be able to be something that can collaborate and innovate at speed,
[01:04:38] Josh DeTar: if we really want to continue the mission that we're on. And, you know, we talked about earlier how the community FIs we serve are never gonna move at the pace at which a heavily VC-funded FinTech startup is gonna move. But what if that FinTech aligns so socially, responsibly, philosophically with you and your mission and just wants to empower you?
[01:05:04] And then we start to break down those barriers to make it so that those things can actually happen. Then we are talking about the ability to actually move and innovate and evolve at speed that consumers are looking for. And we can ensure that consumers are getting what they want from the people that have their best interests at heart.
[01:05:19] Landon Glenn: Yeah. I, I agree wholeheartedly on that. I think, you know, uplifting others, having the opportunity to serve each other, you know, just as an example, you know, you're obviously great at what you do, with your podcast and your... The better a job you do and, and your podcast, the better your guests are gonna sound, you know, and vice versa.
[01:05:39] And so I think when you have FinTechs that are trying to compete or replace, that's where we start to get into issues and we start to have problems. You know, maybe they're not doing things right, or they're cutting corners. And so I've seen, you know, a lot of, and just in the, the number of people we talk to often, I'm having to tell FinTechs, "Oh yeah, you can't actually say that that's illegal.
[01:05:59] No, you can't do this. Don't, please. You should probably take that off your website." And they're like, "What? What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Okay, like what is this?" You know, anybody goes out and does whatever they want world. And you know, that's fine until it's not, and you get bigger and you get caught and, and whatnot.
[01:06:15] And so, you know, I think this with the regulatory, you know, landscape of this industry and how important it is, the privacy, the security of people's money, you know, it's important that we do this one right, you know? We can't just break it and do whatever we want and then try and fix it later. You know, there's a lot at stake here with people's finances.
[01:06:33] Josh DeTar: Yeah. You know, I'm glad you made that comment because I think a lot of times too, we, we dog on the regulatory and the compliance side, right? We talk about how it's a barrier and it's a hindrance and it keeps us removing fast and it's frustrating for us and our consumers, but it's also there for a reason.
[01:06:49] All right? And going back to the guardrails example, right, we need guardrails in a lot of different senses and you know, we don't want these FinTechs just popping up. And, you know, making these crazy claims or offering these things that are obviously not sustainable or, you know, gonna do good for our communities.
[01:07:07] We, we don't want that to happen. So we do need some regulatory oversight to ensure that that doesn't happen. But at the same time, that's sometimes stifles our innovation. So it's a, it's a balance give and take of it.
[01:07:18] Landon Glenn: Yeah. You know, and I think that's where the, the merit of obviously this collaborative future. The possibility of that becomes so exciting because you know, the FinTechs are able to move fast and do things, but they're not providing the pieces with the loans, the accounts, the money. There's no risk because they don't have your, your private data.
[01:07:40] And so it allows those FinTechs to, "You know, I'm gonna go build a really great app for, you know, some new industry, you know?" I, I like the farming example because you could have an app for farmers that has all these great inputs, like the weather and the price of grain and all the different feeds and whatnot.
[01:07:56] And then that data could be synced up with your account data from all your loans and accounts at your institution. And then, that provider could look at the last 24 months' history and all the other farms in the market and start to forecast your yield. And then they would know, "Oh my gosh. You're gonna need a $50,000 line of credit to get to harvest because of the price of diesel right now." You know, things have gone up so much. And now the farmer and the institution can get that taken care of before they even know they needed it.
[01:08:23] And so that intelligence, that connection instead of it being a one way data flow of, of just pulling opportunity from the institution becomes a two-way flow where the data and the insights are now used. It's all central to the end user. And they have their top-of-wallet institution that they know and trust.
[01:08:42] But now, their data can be used to instantly generate a personal financial statement or to allow the institution to have their finger on the pulse of their finances and how they're performing. And so they're able to be empowered, show that they can get another lease on a building or a property or rent their next home or whatever they need and qualify using some of that data to show
[01:09:03] their history of what they've done and just cut down the time that we have on doing some of those things to compete more with the FinTech providers. You know, having that real-time information that you can pull, all of the data the credit union or the bank has, combine it with all of the data, the business management, accounting, software, et cetera, has. You put all that together, and we start to get a pretty good understanding of a, of an individual.
[01:09:28] And that individual is now able to use that data for their benefit. You know, whether it's filing their taxes or buying something or applying for something. And, you know, it's gonna really lead to opportunity for all, I think.
[01:09:41] Josh DeTar: I'm super excited by that thought process. Right? And that potential future where we can, we can actually use the technology, the data, the insights to be better humans. I mean, this goes all the way back to like, I want everybody to have my Mayree, right? If I want everybody to have somebody that takes them under their wing and says, "Don't worry.
[01:10:05] I got you". And you know, now you fast forward in my life and very similar thing, right? Like if I have something that I want to do with my financial life that maybe on paper, somebody be like, "Ah, it doesn't make a ton of sense," but if I go into my credit union and I talk to them, they're like, "Oh yeah, no, we know Josh.
[01:10:22] We know what this means. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we can do this. We can do that. Here's these options. And if we can start to use some of this technology to empower those types of very personal and intelligent decisions about how do we help support these people better, then we do take that kind of stuff to scale.
[01:10:43] Right? 'Cause poor Mayree can't scale. She can always talk to so many people in a day, right, but technology can scale.
[01:10:49] Landon Glenn: Yeah, yeah. And the other really interesting component there is that these technology providers aren't gonna be serving people. They don't understand. Right? I mean, if I go and try and talk to a farmer about, you know, some other industry and I'm like, "Oh hey, yeah. Farmer, let's talk banking." You know, they're not gonna, they're gonna gloss over and say, "Okay, this is what I don't understand it very well, 'cause I'm not experienced there.
[01:11:12] Or if you go try and talk to a banker about how to, you know, properly farm, they're not, so these affinity groups, they're not gonna, you're building these communities of affinity-based interests and allowing the technology to serve them the best. And so they're gonna understand the needs of that group, the wants, what things, you know, the habits, the behaviors, and be able to figure out those individuals in a way where they can serve them in the best possible way.
[01:11:38] And so now it, it's not up to the institution to try and figure out or dream up who needs what, or who's interested in what, or who to talk to about what products and services. In a sense, it actually solves a lot of the marketing issues and, and kind of become a, a bit of the future of marketing because these institutions will know, "Oh my gosh. I've got, you know, 37 customers or, or members this month that are looking for a home buying solution.
[01:12:03] Let's get our lending team to reach out to them, you know? And they're able to capture them two months before they would normally come in and normally they'll come in after they've already been on Zillow and Bankrate and all the other places that are trying to get their business. And so it allows those institutions to have, kind of that place in the behavioral analysis of these users and to be kind of the gatekeeper to the things they need, whether it's a car or a home, or a new credit card for their 18-year old, you know, whatever example you want to pick.
[01:12:31] There's a lot of them.
[01:12:33] Josh DeTar: Yeah. As long as it doesn't get to like minority report level where they're like, "Josh is gonna make a really stupid financial decision here in a couple months. And we're just gonna close this account now, you know?"
[01:12:43] Landon Glenn: Yeah. That's, that's, that's the truth.
[01:12:46] Josh DeTar: Oh well, Landon, this has just been an absolute pleasure talking with you and just hearing a little bit of kind of your vision for how do we use technology to continue to empower the mission of community FIs. You know, before we wrap up, just the two final questions for you. So where do you go to stay up to date on what's happening in our industry?
[01:13:05] Any insights into, uh, the types of things that you're reading when you can't fall asleep at night?
[01:13:11] Landon Glenn: Yeah. I, I love to listen to podcasts and I, you know, obviously, uh, with how much I'm traveling to events and conferences, I'm typically going to more than one a month. So it's hard not to stay up to date with all the, the keynotes and the presentations you're able to listen to. But I love to, you know, read. I, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, you know, and I like to read the articles on there. And, and people post great stuff and a lot of good things coming out of all the different, uh, industry providers out there.
[01:13:41] Josh DeTar: Well, and I think, I'll mention it just because you dropped his name a few times, sounds like you follow a lot of Ron Shevlin's work as well.
[01:13:48] Landon Glenn: Oh, yeah. Ron Shevlin, Cornerstone. Like whenever an article comes up from them, I'm, that's one of the first things I'm clicking on and reading and seeing what's new, 'cause the, hi, his understanding, the amount of research he puts into it and then his team is next to none.
[01:14:02] Josh DeTar: Well, you'll be excited to know, I'm actually gonna see him in Boston here in just a couple of weeks. And, what's funny is, is that I'll be in Boston for something else. We're gonna grab lunch. And then, as soon as I get home, we're recording an episode. So he'll be a, a guest here on the podcast shortly.
[01:14:19] Landon Glenn: Awesome. Can't wait to hear it. Tell him, "Landon says, 'hi'."
[01:14:22] Josh DeTar: I will. Well, Landon, one last thing before I let you go. If people want to connect with you and, and continue this discussion and especially if they wanna learn a little bit more about ASA and what you guys are doing to, uh, empower a lot of the things that we've talked about today, how can they connect with you and how can they learn about you?
[01:14:39] Landon Glenn: Yeah, just send me a message or connect with me on LinkedIn and say, "Hey, I listen to the podcast, love to chat," and we can get something on the calendar. And on the, also on the pod or on our LinkedIn, I'm Landon Glenn, if you wanna search ASA. And then the website is asa.financial. Uh, and then we also have asavault.com.
[01:14:59] So couple websites you can check out, and we're posting pretty regularly to LinkedIn as well on our company profile. You can jump on there and check it out. And, uh, yeah, lots of great resources.
[01:15:11] Josh DeTar: Awesome. And ASA is ASA for those of you listening. So Landon, again, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you, but it's also, like I mentioned earlier, it's just, it's really cool and really reinvigorating to, uh, get a chance to talk to people like you, who are movers and shakers in the industry and doing stuff and, and doing it with the right purpose behind it.
[01:15:32] So, thanks for what you do. And thanks for being a guest on the Digital Banking Podcast.
[01:15:36] Landon Glenn: Thanks so much, Josh. It was a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
[01:15:38] Josh DeTar: Awesome. Thanks, Landon.