Bridging Tech and Business in Banking with Jin Gwak

Jin Gwak: So [00:00:00] customer service is, goes everywhere and then we are gonna touch the, our employee and then we are gonna touch the, our member. I think that's sometimes the losing sight of it, because I always talking to my teams, we are service organization, we are serving them, right? So without our customer, we not exist.

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Josh DeTar: [00:01:00] Welcome to another episode of the Digital Banking Podcast. My guest today is Jin Gwak, the Chief Digital and Information Officer for AmeriCU Credit Union. Jin is an absolute blast and a pleasure to talk to. Her energy and and excitement makes it apparent very quickly that her personality is one derived heavily off of curiosity, made apparent by an early comment she made to me.

She goes, oh yeah, I'll just get a master's in computer science and I can always finish my master's in psychology later. It's just a master's like this is no big deal whether personal or professional. Jin always wants to try new things as a self prescribed information junkie. She's looking for new things to learn and new things to try and is fearless about the what the outcome may be.

I. She said she believes that having this wide angle lens to wanting to learn about as many diverse topics [00:02:00] as possible is what helps keep her out of a silo. She said, especially as a technologist, that can be really easy to do. You get pigeonholed into only focusing on technology. Having hobbies and interests outside of tech helps her to see the whole picture.

How does technology fit into a larger concept? How does it all connect? What's the human element to all of this? Going back to her original education tract in psychology, so you'll find Jin has a diverse set of interests. Everything from a quiet night at home, crocheting to wanting to hike up a mountain with her skis on her back, have a glass of wine at the summit, and then ski back down under the light of a full moon.

She even started and ran her own children's clothing line. Um, but she said her favorite thing to do is to get up early in the morning and decompress while playing golf, which mind you, is the exact opposite of how I feel when I try and hit that silly little white ball. But, uh, you know, ultimately all of this shapes how Jin views the role of [00:03:00] a C I O at a community financial institution and really what it takes to be a great c i o in a rapidly changing technology driven environment of financial services.

And that's precisely what we plan to talk about today. So Jin, uh, welcome to the show. Thanks for being a guest. Hi, 

Jin Gwak: Josh. Thanks for having me. And then it was a wonderful introduction, so I'm just, uh, honored to be, be part of the, your podcast. 

Josh DeTar: Well, I'm super excited to have you. You know, we met at the digital banking, um, conference in, uh, Boca Raton, Florida this year, and we were at a mutual kind of lunch and learn style dinner.

And I remember sitting there and I was a couple of tables away from Jin, and she started, uh, you know, uh, interjecting into the, uh, conversation. And I was like, oh my gosh, this woman is a powerhouse. I was like, I have got to have her on the podcast. So I had to like chase her down in the hallway later and say, you've gotta come and be a, a guest on the podcast.

You [00:04:00] know, I do want to just absolutely give you that shout out. I just, I love to see powerhouse ladies like yourself, uh, as CIOs as technologists in financial institutions. I think that that is just, it's such an incredibly awesome lens that we need to have as a part of how we're looking at technology, um, and bringing some diversity of thought into the TE groups.

Um, not just in financial services, but as a whole, but especially in financial services. So, I mean, kudos to you, my dear. Uh, you're, you're a rockstar. Oh, thank you 

Jin Gwak: so much. Oh my gosh. I don't know what to do about the, what you say, so I'm glad I'm here, and then I'll kind of be part of it. 

Josh DeTar: Well, you know what, I think, so that is one of the things that we really wanted to talk about and, and that is one of the things that I really wanted to have you on as a guest is, you know, as you and I got to talking, we were talking about just how the role of a C I O is really changing, especially at community financial institutions, [00:05:00] you know, over the last decade, but really even just in the last couple of years.

And as so much of the interaction points that account holders and, you know, members of credit unions have with their financial institution becomes increasingly more digital. you know, your, your technology staff at the credit union, Needs to think a little bit differently and it needs to be structured a little bit differently and it needs to have a different type of seat at the table when it comes to strategic planning.

And so I really wanted to get an opportunity to bring you on as a guest to talk a little bit about, you know, your views as a technologist, but, um, one of those unique technologists that I think has other lenses to apply to the technology lens, um, of how are you thinking about kind of this next generation of CIOs and what do we need to be thinking about as an industry to put kind of the right people with the right processes and the right, um, you know, ideas in place, in those roles to make sure [00:06:00] that, you know, community financial institutions are able to stay relevant through this kind of digital transformation age.

So I, sorry, I feel like I probably gave you a lot to unpack there. Um, but you know, I'd love to get your thoughts. 

Jin Gwak: I guess it's a moving forward because I think that you nailed, uh, the fact that how happened for fast, uh, past few years that how the technologies do play a role in the business. Right. I think the invention of the mobile, uh, you know, mobile phone and then that's a driving how the people interacting and things like that.

So I think the moving forward that be it is not like a technologist and a business and a kind of two separate role that I think that we are coming in as a being. Um, for. We know the technology, but we are the business people, right? So we need to understand the business first and then the bring the technology [00:07:00] knowledge and then how we could translate it into the business to help the business go moving forward.

So I think the thought process has to change, not the technology first, what are the business goal and then how it can be achieved by the tech, you know, tech. Tech tool that we are gonna choose, right? So that's a kind of different lens in a, in the past you think about technology first and then how are we gonna mold into the business process in there.

So I guess is for the moving forward that we, you know, still we gonna be part of the IT team or in, uh, infrastructure team, whatever, but we need to kind of put in the view of the, what other impact is gonna be in the business or what kind of value we gonna bring. So we need to be business savvy with the technology knowledge and then experts.

So that's the kind of like a different side of it. What I [00:08:00] see that we doubt it then you cannot marry together in a boss is never be successful. 

Josh DeTar: Yeah. You know, that's interesting you bring that up. I, um, as you know, somebody who works in a technology company, It's interesting to see just how, you know, different people's brains work, right?

And I think that's what makes us so cool as humans is, is just how we all approach, you know, different problems differently. And, you know, I look even just using my own organization because I have visibility to it as the example, right? A lot of our technologists are like hardcore technologists, like they're coders.

Like that's, that's their jam, right? And so asking them to think from a business case is just not in their wheelhouse, right? But then you take me and if you had asked me to code our digital banking product, like we'd have been out of business a long time ago, I would've failed miserably. Like that's just, that's not my strong suit.

Um, I think probably those of you who know me well enough are probably laughing in the background of this podcast, going, I don't know what his [00:09:00] strong suit is or what he actually does, but, um, you know, I'm not the, I'm not the technologist. And a lot of times the technologist is not the business case person, but it does take a really unique type of personality, I think, to be in leadership over the technology side of an organization these days to be able to say, we have to think about the technology from the business case.

Mm-hmm. You know, I had, um, I had a guest on the podcast, uh, a handful of episodes ago, Austin Adams, and he was the former c i o for JP Morgan Chase. Um, and it, he kind of made a similar comment to you, Jin, and he was talking about how he said, if we want an idea to die, Have it come from a technologist. He said, if you want the idea to live, it's gotta come from a business case person.

And so I really, really like what you're saying about how important it is to get the c I o to think like that business person so we can drive use cases forward and say, [00:10:00] well, we're not just implementing this piece of technology for technology's sake. Like this is the business driver behind the decision to, you know, do X, Y, Z with technology.

Jin Gwak: Yeah, I mean the, you there are the, you know, different role in the organization, in different role in the IT team. So there are maybe more, really, I, I, you know, I don't do the coding, right? And then these days in the, compared to the, you know, the old time ago, right? But they need to understand what kind of impact is gonna bring to the table, even though they're doing the coding, but they, how they're doing it, how it being, being released, or the, you know, things like that.

So they need to know the impact. What is the. Coming out of the outcome. So I, I guess maybe they're not gonna be part of for the, you know, the business value creation, anything like that, but they need to understand to the why, and then they're also contributing those [00:11:00] values so they feel like they're not separated, they're part of the one team, uh, for the, you know, the common goal.

So I guess even though they're not maybe, uh, you know, all the time working through it, but we have to make sure that what you are doing, even the simple thing is impacting for the business. Because without the business, We are not gonna exist, right? The tech team is not gonna exist, right? So it is not that we are not a software company developing anything like that.

So we are part of the business. We try to run the business, and the technology is just a part of the kind of, you know, helping to making those goals. So I think for the, even though you are the, you're of a programmer or the, you're the, like, you know, doing for the infrastructure or the configuring for the phones, anything like that, those make an impact to making those people working.

Um, you know, serving the member or the working more efficiently. So i d s is then, you [00:12:00] know, understanding their impact. Then they're gonna see the, oh, I contributing for this goal. So they have a more connection and it is gonna be motivating it, engaging it and things like that. It's just not the simple.

Simple thing for like, just I'm doing the configuring the phone. Right? So I think that's gonna, driving more engagement. 

Josh DeTar: Um, I really want to come back to what you're talking about, about just how the structure of the team and the team's alignment to kind of the business case objectives. I want to come back to that, but I want to go, um, to what you were just talking about.

'cause I, I think that's a really interesting topic I'd love to get more of your perspective on is, you know, when you look at, um, you know, you made the comment, you're like, we're not a software company. Right? You're a credit union, but you're kind of also becoming a software company. Mm-hmm. Right? And that's what I think is really interesting.

And I think that's what you're getting at with the whole, like, morphing of the role of a C I O over the last little bit. Because while you're not [00:13:00] necessarily a software company, and while you know, selfishly I'm gonna. Argue and put my stake in the ground saying, I don't think you should be a technology company.

I don't think you should be a software company. I don't think you should be developing everything in-house. I think you should focus on being a great credit union and then work with great technology partners to deliver the software. But you still have to kind of think like a software company, right? You still have to think about how all these systems work, how mm-hmm.

Uh, they play nicely together, how they share data, uh, how they solve your business cases. So you, you do still have to think like a software company. Um, but you know, at the same time, like your business model has changed over the last little bit and obviously exacerbated by the pandemic too, of the way that members interact with the credit union anymore is a lot less like how they used to interact with a credit union.

And it's a lot more like how they interact with a software company now. So again, does that make you a software [00:14:00] company or does that make you a credit union? Again, my argument is that I think you need to be a credit union, but you also kind of need to be a software company. So maybe, maybe talk me through how you're thinking about that, and especially from the lens of what does that mean for, you know, what the skillset and how the c i o needs to be thinking about technology and software for a credit union?

Jin Gwak: Yeah, I guess it's when you say the software company is if you, you're not really creating from the scratch and then going through the software development lifecycle and things like that. So we have a lifecycle of the different tools and then the, what we are using. So I have a, like a kind of enterprise architect of portfolio of the full catalog of the, what tool we are using in the different, uh, you know, business unit or the member facing and then things like that.

So we still have those lifecycle need to be done. But when I say software company is, that is. [00:15:00] For, they're not just a for here to program to create some kind of program to sell it somewhere, right? So they need to know that, you know, what they're doing is gonna be actually making for our revenue or the growing the member and grow the loan or creating efficiency and things like that.

It actually hitting their, our balance sheet, right? For the creation for, you know, the loan growth and, and things like that. So we, I guess it's for the, you know, credit union or any company, it's gonna be more like a technology savvy company, not the actual software creation. So my role as a comes in say how we could leverage for the what's out there and then also that.

Is there anything to be, we could create it for internally for, you know, the money and time and [00:16:00] when you're considering it for is kind of more of the balance of build and buy and this concept. There is no one way the other, you gotta kind of juggle for the build and buy and then also the how it's gonna well play together.

Because when you keep. Buying stuff, then maybe they're not gonna play very well. But I think these days a more open a p i architecture and things like that, they're more well plugin before it is not. Right. So now is that more of like, uh, when you say software company, you're not actually creating from the scratch, you are kind, kind of bring something into the organization and then how we could kind of connect them together.

So it's more of the cohesive working, uh, kind of relationship in the different tools. So that's the kind of when I meant for like a, you know, traditional software company. They're doing the developing from the scratch, but the, we are become [00:17:00] like, I think a technology kind of savvy kind of, you know, organization, but that we are not truly kind of creating from the nothing to, you know, build a full blown.

So that's the kind of, maybe the difference that. You know, I could see, 

Josh DeTar: uh, if you haven't already trademarked this, I'm gonna steal it and start using it in some of our marketing messaging. What, you know, as a cu you need to be tech savvy, but not a software company. Right, right. I love that. Um, I, I, I, I really like that approach to it is you still have to have a really deep understanding of technology and software and how it works and how it interacts with other systems and how it aligns or does not align to, you know, meeting your strategic objectives, um, but not necessarily be, not that you're not capable, but you know, building it yourself internally.

Right. Um, when, when you talk about that, that thought process as a technology leader,[00:18:00] um, how important is it then for you to be involved in those business case discussions with the rest of the, you know, executive leadership team at the credit union? 

Jin Gwak: Uh, so I come in that, is there any, uh, because of, you know, anyhow, that whatever that we are doing, you know, moving forward or even right now that digital first is not gonna go away because digital tool is gonna stay, right?

Which means that it's gonna have involved with some kind of software, right? So everything's running through the software so that I coming in say that, okay, they have a, uh, any, uh, business outcome they wanna have any, any business, the, uh, problem we need to solve. Then I coming in saying, okay, that what we currently have, and then is there anything that we could solve that with what we have or we do.

We need to inquire, acquire for something [00:19:00] else from the outside. Then when we acquire something, then which one need to be. Because we don't wanna keep layering up with the technology we have, then we are gonna end up technology debt. Right. So I coming into the, as a subject matter expert for them, because those are, you know, the C L O or the C X O, those are maybe doesn't understand the intriguing part of the, how we'll play together.

So they're looking at the only, the one feature of the what they need. Oh, okay, I need to buy those, let's bring it in. But they don't know the, what's the part of the, what it's gonna impact of the rest of the organization. So I coming in to kind of educate them when you do this, then. We, it's gonna impact of the rest of our organization, rest of the program we need to change, but, or we don't need this, we could achieve with the existing one and things like this.

So I kind of like, kind of put them in the rail of the guardrail [00:20:00] of for, you know, the, which one, you know, the making the right decision. And then also we not keep adding, layering up in a different tool. So it's a more of the make it complicated. And then also the employee side of it, they have to maintain 20 or over 20 different software they have to go in to enter the information or the, you know, uh, capturing interaction.

Those are need to be looked at it because sometime they're oversight. What is the impact is gonna be for, you know, the different, uh, business unit. 

Josh DeTar: Yeah, I think that creates an interesting balance because, um, Like you said, you know, you want to be, you wanna be driving your initiatives around, um, strategic objectives, right?

And what's the business case of this? And let's maybe just use a, a really simple, blunt example to kind of walk through so, you know, use, uh, you know, your C L O and use, um, you know, wanting to introduce a new, uh, [00:21:00] loan origination process, for example, right? So the business case may be that, um, you know, maybe we're serving a new market, we're bringing a new loan product to market.

We want to be able to offer it x, y, Z way. We want the best member experience. Oh, we want this to be a digital interaction with members because that's how members are interacting with us today. So we've gone and looked and we found this great loan origination software. We want to implement this. Then obviously your team has to come in and be a part of that process to say, oh, okay.

We understand the business case of what we're trying to do. We have this strategic objective to grow membership in this area, and we're gonna do it through loans with this product, and we want to introduce that product digitally to members. So they're gonna need to interact with it digitally here, but here's the impacts of how that's gonna interact with other elements of software that we're using, other business cases that we may be trying to solve with other pieces of software.

So how often do you [00:22:00] find that, you know, you and your team ends up like shooting down something from another department because it doesn't work with tech? Or how often do you find like maybe the inverse of that and you're finding that as technology is becoming more open, you're able to say, Hey, this really cool thing that you want, it actually will interface well with, with our core, with our digital banking, with our whatever it may be.

Um, and because of open APIs and standards, this is no big deal. We can do that. Like, how would you say that's morphed over the last little bit and, and what do you feel like those interactions have been like? 

Jin Gwak: Oh, I mean, uh, so now I, I think for the, when I, you know, looking back for the, my 10 years of AmeriCU before, so now I think the more of the, uh, our business unit, head of the business unit understand that we need to bring it team.

Way earlier than implementation, even like during the R F P process or kind of like a [00:23:00] sharing idea of though this is what we are trying to do or what should be looking, looking for and things like that. Because there are, when you look at the software, I mean the l o s right? It's not only the lending terminology.

There is a lot of for, you know, tech related to the functions and things like that. So those are maybe we coming in say, explain, or understanding how it's gonna play the role. So, I mean, now still that, I guess it's how often there's some, I mean, it, it is like, uh, um, You know, the, quite often for the, sometimes that we say no, it is not the right tool.

Sometimes we bring to the new tool on the table. Did you guys take a look at this one? I think my role is that, um, I look through the many different areas of like a FinTech, I go to FinTech kind of conference and things like that. So I'm looking at the kind of big lens of, for the lending, whatever, how he's gonna, all fitting into, so then I bring to those things to the, my [00:24:00] business unit.

Did you guys take a look at this one or this one? And things like those are kind of collaborative. Things that happen. But the one thing is changed for the last three years, or the reasoning is that they realize that we could partner up. So my vision is the IT team is that we are partner with the business unit to help that or success, right?

It is not just for the, you know, separate department, anything like that. Use us for the, our resource to really help guide you to find the right tool. Because even though we understand the lending or you know, the, you know, financial center operation, understanding their business terminology and things like that still, that the lending team or financial, they are the subject matter experts.

They're gonna, they're gonna know the process, but we coming into like how, you know, as being technology kind of subject matter experts. So we kind of looking at the two different [00:25:00] lens and then come up with the right solutions. So, In more of the no or yes, it just kinda, uh, like, uh, alignment or the, we are getting the answer together.

Say, this is not the right tool, not just coming from the IT team. Say, no, no. Did you think about, so we are coming in as advisor or the partnership that ask those question with a vendor or even our team say, so we can make the decision, uh, collectively together. I think that's the more, uh, better way to say, we turn it down this kind of tool or we gonna say yes.

So I, I guess that that's the, has to be kind of working together. It is just not the only, the, um, it or the IT teams. Decision, I think that makes more sense to then they're gonna have a buying in to those, [00:26:00] to that decision. Does it 

Josh DeTar: make sense? Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. So, uh, I'm gonna ask you kind of a loaded question.

How do you, and this, you know, may be different depending on the type of project that you're working on, but how do you think through that evaluation process as a credit union then? And so let's say, you know, you've decided you have X, y, z strategic objective you're trying to accomplish this year, and so you have the business case behind it and you have, uh, in this case a piece of, uh, technology or software that's gonna help solve this business case, right?

So obviously you're gonna have whatever team is responsible for that. So let's, again, let's just keep going down the path we're using of like the lending department, right? So the lending department has this business case. So you collaboratively work with them to identify some potential software partners to help solve for this business case.

How do you go about evaluating the potential partners in that space? And I'll even add one more layer to that. You know, you [00:27:00] mentioned the kind of build by partner. So how do you maybe first go through the, do we build by partner then if you decide we're gonna partner with somebody on this, you know, how do you evaluate the different partner options that you have?

And then, you know, as you get down to kind of quote unquote decision time, how do you look at waiting the business case versus the technology? So again, I'll just use, you know, very obnoxiously blunt examples, but mm-hmm. You know, you, you have, you have three finalists that you're looking at for partners for this, you know, system, system for your, uh, loans team, uh, or your lending team.

And one of 'em, Is like a hundred percent on the business case and 0% on the technology case. Like maybe it's just junky software or doesn't do a great job integrating to another system. It's super siloed or whatever. But it like flawlessly solves the business case problem. And then on the other side, you have an [00:28:00] amazing piece of technology that, you know, integrates flawlessly to all your other systems or maybe comes from one of your other providers and is perfectly built in, but it doesn't really solve the business case.

And then your third is, you know, kind of 50 50, like it's okay software and it's okay. It's solving the business case, like how do you pick between the three? Uh, and again, you know, I'm hoping those aren't your three examples at the end, but just yeah, kind of maybe walk me through your process of like, how do you decide build by partner and then how do you work together as a, you know, as a credit union unit to decide, you know, how do we wait and do this evaluation so that we end up with the right partner that solves both our business case and gives us a good piece of tech.

Jin Gwak: Yeah, so sometimes that we kind of, because of like, you know, everybody has a daily own bus own job to do, right? So we partner up with the outside the agency to doing the r you know, the R F P process. And then with that said that, uh, I'm [00:29:00] gonna use the, we went through the l o s, uh, selection process for last year, the year before, right?

And then the last year, um, you know, we went live for that one. Um, so we that in the, during the process, we include. Like a collective, like a business unit for the, because it is gonna touch not just the lend, you know, when you think about l o s, it's not touching only for the lending team. It's gonna touch the financial center, it's gonna touch deposit, or it's gonna touch for, you know, the accounting and things like that.

So those, all the people kind of get together. So we have like a kind of committee part, right? To get together and then they lay out the requirement because we are really, um, you know, moving forward as being the digital first. Digital first is a, uh, organization, so anything automation and then, uh, for the, um, better communication to using the tools.

So those are the weaving into, so it's not solely, uh, for [00:30:00] the business problem, but we wanna really create a digital first. Seamless experience for both a member and an employee. What do we need right for the moving forward? So those requirement actually kind of lay out working with the from outside agent.

And then those are gonna be compare from the each vendors we are, uh, you know, doing the demo or the selection process. And then from there, the, some of them is gonna require, some of 'em is gonna be maybe wishlist, some of them is the must have or things like that. We go through this and then kind of waiting down that for some kind of point system or anything like that.

So that way that we have a more, like a quantitative. Um, you know, measurement we could do. So not just for your emotional kind of, you know, the decision. So we need to make [00:31:00] more, you know, objective the decision for that one. So we are kind of going through that and then kind of talk it through for the, does it gonna really, you know, making a deal or break it, anything like that.

So from there that we made a decision, you know, we make the decision for the, what's the really right tool's gonna be. So I guess we never, at this point, if we never had a situation like the Euro example one that like a hundred percent 0% or 50 50, I think they're more like a quote unquote. But during that process that we look at the one vendor and then we kind of collected it together, do you think I'll pursue this one or not?

So it's yes, no. Right. So those are the, I guess is of things that working is really. You identify when you replace this, whatever the system, what are the impact is gonna happen in the organization? Of course it's gonna impact the member and then they, we gotta kind of define what [00:32:00] kinda, um, member experience we gonna deliver.

Right? But with that said, and those, you know, the business unit will be impacted by this change. They all kind of come together, say the, okay, what are your requirement? What do you need for the helping your side of it? And then you be kind of collecting those requirement and then that's the one that actually going against with a different vendor.

I think that helped her a little bit because in way back for like several years ago, it was actually only. Look, looked at by only the lending team, right? They didn't even considering for the other department. Right? So I think that before you even start that, what are the impact it's gonna be for in the within organization?

Those people need to be on the table to making selection process. 

Josh DeTar: Um, oh man. Gimme so many things. I want to ask you based on that one thing. Okay. Um, I mean, for starters, [00:33:00] I think I'd be curious to get your perspective on how do you balance, especially when you're looking at a product that does touch so many different areas of the business, right?

I mean, use digital banking as the example. Like, I mean, how many business units does digital banking touch in a credit union these days? Right? I mean, it's basically every single one, right? And so, um, How do you make a decision? How do you make sure that all the business units that you know are gonna be affected are a part of it while minimizing, having too many hands in a cookie chart and kind of analysis paralysis?

Jin Gwak: Oh yeah. I, I think I love it. Analysis paralysis. Sometimes that's gonna like, put you in the rabbit hole, right? So it, it is really the weight, right? How, um, the, the, what are the requirement really require, must have. And then those are gonna be big play [00:34:00] of making a decision, right? So you gotta kind of sacrifice some of the, like a low hanging fruit.

Kind of things, right? So we don't wanna get into like a Oh yeah, everyone has to be agreement to doing it. You never get there because it's, it's not the right, so you really define the what are the re, you know, the must have or the requirement. And then from there, then it is gonna have a more weights put it on the, when you do scale down, you know, scale down for like a different component that's gonna actually driving the make a decision.

And then there's some area, it may be have some of the like, you know, uh, drawback or the, you know, impact from them, but, We as organization accepted for the, those impact in the certain area, right? I think that that's the way to go. So otherwise you put the everything in the same [00:35:00] weight, then you never gonna get to the decision.

So you define what is the requirement we must have for the moving forward, and then based on that you could kind of put it in a different perspective. 

Josh DeTar: Um, yeah, I like that way of thinking about it. How, I'm just curious how, like, how does that conversation go internally? Um, you know, maybe again, you know, I just will keep with the, so let's say you're looking at a new, um, loan origination piece of software and you know, that'll touch marketing, right?

But it's not necessarily a marketing tool. Like how do you tell the marketing team, uh, Hey, we want you to be involved in this. We want you to pay attention in demos. Um, we want you to provide your feedback, uh, but you're gonna have a 5% weight. You know, if you guys are a hundred percent on this one and 0% on this one, but the rest of the, you know, business units decide on the one you don't like, Hey, to break it to you, but you're not going to like be the veto.

You're not going to, you're not gonna win. We're gonna pick this one. Even though [00:36:00] it's not the one you like. Like how do you get their involvement and how do you get them to give you really valuable feedback that helps educate your decision making process. 

Jin Gwak: So everyone has a role and responsibility in, uh, you know, you know, during the process.

So it, it is really that we put them maybe marketing, right? We wanna make sure that they're, you know, they're have a, a place to market and then things like that. But it, it is really that, um, you know, when you look at the l o s system, Maybe the marketing piece is not a huge portion of that, right? So they need to understand that even like for the whole, as a, as a whole, the p you know, those are different units need to be understand what are their, their rules and the responsibilities gonna be.

So mainly the l o s is the booking system, right? We need to have a certain features out there because even the way when we have a, we are gonna have a greatest, the marketing tools out there, it [00:37:00] is not doing the efficiently, not really, uh, you know, booking, uh, our loans fast and accurately, or, you know, delivering the what they need, then it is not the right one.

So I think, you know, if they, those people not understanding, then I guess they, you know, they're not our, what is our main business? Our main business is not marketing, right? Our main business is the actually, you know, serving, you know, providing the loan services is one of our main, you know, business that need to be, has a more higher importance than marketing.

Marketing is important, but when you're selecting those kind of tools, it has to be different weight. So I think it's more of the mutual, uh, agreement than what we are gonna moving forward. So I guess we, and if, if it's come down to the case, then we gotta explain why is important, why this piece is [00:38:00] more important than the, you know, the marketing piece, anything like that.

So those are gonna bring to the people. It is not, you know, set understanding. So if it, we need to time, you know, take some more time to explain why, then we'll explain why, right? So that, that's what it is. 

Josh DeTar: Uh, you know, I, I pick on marketing for a, a specific reason. You know, I get one, you know, marketing is kind of the hat that I wear.

But, um, and I think you see this a lot of times in organizations, a lot of times marketing does kind of get pushed to the back burner a lot of times, especially in decision making process. You know, one of the things that I think, um, has become really apparent even as we've kind of gone through this digital transformation age is just how important marketing is in terms of, you know, being involved in software selection.

Because if you think about it, right? So, you know, this time let's use digital banking as the example, right? If you pick a digital banking, um, you know, partner that doesn't give you the [00:39:00] ability to do, you know, significant configuration around mm-hmm. How branding elements are done, well, all of a sudden you pass over this thing to your marketing team and you say, Hey, it is deploying this new digital banking software.

And marketing says, great. Well, we want it to feel like, you know, America. Yeah. We want it to feel like our brand. And you go, oh, well the one we picked doesn't let you do that. So sorry. Like, this is what you get. And then all of a sudden they get disheartened, right? Like, they're like, okay, well I'm not excited about this product now because I don't get to make it feel like us.

Um, so I think it, it, it is a really interesting challenge as an organization, like a credit union that is all of a sudden going from a very traditional brick and mortar model with, you know, decades, centuries of experience of how to deliver, you know, on your brand and your value proposition to all of a sudden kind of having to be like what we've talked about, right?

Mm-hmm. Like kind of a, a software company. And, um, and I think a lot of [00:40:00] times from my seat as somebody at a digital banking company, like we do see that a lot, we see a lot where, uh, a lot of times the. The kind of the core team that is a part of the decision making process for like digital banking. It excludes marketing and it Oh, right.

Um, and then like in your seat, right, same thing happens. Like if all of a sudden, um, maybe, you know, the member experience team or maybe, you know, somebody else in the leadership team has made a decision on something like digital banking, and then they turn it over to it and they're like, Hey, go implement this thing.

And you start peeling back the layers and you're like, this is garbage software. Like this is terrible. Like this doesn't work. And they're like, well, yeah, but the, you know, the sales guy gave me a really sexy demo and it, it looked awesome and it just, it did all the things that I wanted. And you're like, yeah, I know, but you can't actually implement this thing.

Um, so I think that's been a really interesting shift to see. And I think this kind of brings us back to where we started with. I think it's really important to [00:41:00] have leaders like you in an organization. They're looking at, you know, both the business case side of things and saying, okay, well we're, we're whatever reason we're doing a digital banking conversion, for example.

But it's also really important that at some point, like it kind of has to be a gating checkpoint. Like, you gotta pass it, or you, you don't. Oh yeah. Right. Yep. Um, And there is that kind of, there's gonna be a handful that passed the go, um, and then can be sorted out past that. But there also could be a lot of times some that would've been passed through that at once they hit that it mark and somebody that actually, um, but you know, I'll use what you said earlier, right?

Like, you've gotta be tech savvy. You don't have to necessarily be a software development company, but you have to be tech savvy because you have to be able to go in and evaluate it and say, okay, that thing that, that sales person just said, it sounds great. That's total vaporware. I know they can't do that.

Right? Or, Hey, I [00:42:00] validated it. And that really cool thing that they say they can do, they can actually do that. That's actually really cool and here's how it's gonna impact that business case that, you know, Susan was trying to solve for, or, you know, whatever, you know, this department was trying to do. And being able to actually validate that.

So I think that's been an interesting shift to see is how those two departments in specific seem to be getting looped in a lot more in some of the, um, partnership decisions that credit unions are making is, okay, well, does this pass our technology lenss? And then, you know, do we have the ability to actually make this a part of our brand so that when people interact with this software, it feels like how they would've felt if they had walked into a branch and actually talked to one of our employees.

Jin Gwak: So I wanna share the little bit of the, what we implemented for the last three years. So we have a different, uh, uh, strategy committee, right? So it's like a [00:43:00] Mortgage Strategy team and a payment strategy team. Digital strategy team. And then, I mean, the, now we have like a growth, uh, strategy team. And then with that saying that those in the strategy team, that different business unit is a part of it.

So, and luckily, I mean, I'm, I'm in the part of those old strategy team and then, uh, for the growth strategist team, because it's like I put the, my VP in the part of it because of, for, you know, the many meeting in the happening. So as you could see though, those Stratas team is a really multi. Functional group of people kind of like, uh, hear about the, what does a mortgage try to do?

So we know that there were what they need to do so we could kind of put it into the, our input. So in there, there's a marketing team, there's a, you know, financial center, which is, you know, uh, experienced person has been there, and it as an eye [00:44:00] coming in to their right. So it is kind of different lens, right?

And then, uh, we have a, uh, digital strategy team, which is that running that we have for the marketing team f you know, financial and experience and the things like that. So it is actually maybe in the past it just kind of isolated that we are trying to really breaking those silo thinking it is gonna be like a whole holistic view of for the how it's gonna impact is gonna be.

So I think our, those strategy committee team actually work. Breaking those silo because of the, everybody knows that what's each business unit is happening. And then also that our, um, you know, those, you know, we are doing the strategic, uh, planning. And then in the planning session, the, there is a different business unit all together.

It just, not only the, you know, the c e o comes in for the doing it. So we [00:45:00] have a kind of team of teams that, okay, what should we need to do next three years or, and then, uh, what need to be focused on. And then those inside there is a, you know, built around for the committee on to supporting that strategy.

So there are many of the different roles really the part of it. So I think that, that those, um, kind of direction we went, really breaking lots of the silo and the misstep that could have happened. So, I guess it's for the, you know, other organization who's listening to think about it because it is not alone.

You need to work together among others because that you cannot execute the strategy, just the one area because you need a whole team to really executing it. 

Josh DeTar: Well, that kind of brings us back to what you, um, I had kind of tabled from earlier, which was just that how do you [00:46:00] structure teams, right? And how do you structure the organization as a whole to make sure that you've got, you know, diverse representation across different business units as you're making decisions on, um, you know, how you're gonna accomplish strategic objectives.

But I think even taking it, you know, one step more granular, you were talking about how. Like, how do you even structure your IT t team? Right? Um, how do you structure your IT team with people that understand like, hey, I'm, maybe, you know, I'm an iOS developer, like that's my jam. Mm-hmm. That's what I do, that's my thing, but I need to have them understand how what they're working on is working towards this business case or this strategic objective.

Right. So how do you think about structuring your teams, um, to kind of take on these different projects? 

Jin Gwak: So I think the, I mean the structure is, it, it, it is not much a [00:47:00] difference, but it's more of the, that the part of their goal is really though understanding the business, whether there are, uh, different role, they need to understand our business.

For the, what is the credit union as a financial center, you know, financial services that what kinda, uh, you know, the business acumen and things like that they need to understand, right? So those are the kind of must to have kind of goal. And then based on the different project, we want to put the different people in the part of it.

Because sometimes you ended up for only one person working the whole project because of the, they have a business knowledge and things like that. But we gotta kind of like open up for the opportunity that even though the person is not really the business, you know, set, you know, understanding or the savvy, but let's give them opportunity, give that person opportunity [00:48:00] learning about how's the other department, even though there is some setback or anything like that.

So we try to really kind of build those, um, Deeper skill level, but still that because give them oppor opportunity to actually fail because without failure that you're not gonna learn. Right? So those are the kind of culture shifting. We, we change. They used to be only like a couple people running a whole different project, but now we try to, we, we, you know, c team, we call like, let's spread a love, right?

Let's just spread a love for the everyone, right? So let's put the people, maybe they're not even ready, but let's put them in so they could learn what's going on. And then we could kind of help them in the behind the scenes, right? So those are also the, one of the chains. And then, uh, for, we, we ha used to have a, uh, business system analyst in, uh, my department, but we kind of like, uh, uh, consolidated to.[00:49:00] 

The one, uh, team in the operation. So those are people actually kind of meeting, you know, different business unit and they gathering that their, uh, problem or the what they wanna do and things like that. So they kind of gathering the requirement and then kind of pushing out to the different area for the IT and things like that.

Even it, we have like a sort of kind of liaison kind of role between the IT and the business unit. So we could kind of cross the gap part of it. So I guess it is for really that, um, you know, be there really in, when I say the first, the curiosity. You, you are, you, you are curious, what are they trying to do?

And then try to understand the, where they're coming from. I think that's the key of, for the, how we are working together, right? So in the, you know, going back to structure size, I mean the, you know, we [00:50:00] have a business analyst and things like that. Those are kind of intrigue, part in a connecting different, uh, you know, different areas.

And then also that those committee that I mentioned, those are the really kind, you know, get different business unit all together. So we are meeting, some of 'em is a biweekly, some of monthly we doing those committee meeting so that they kind of go over for the what are the those, um, you know, the plan or where we are and what's coming and things like that.

So everyone have like a kind of same information, not in the only one area particular. 

Josh DeTar: Um, real quick, I, now I see why we were talking about, before we started recording cannabis banking, just mm-hmm. Spread the love. It's just all about the love. It's just not Bob Marley. I don't know. I, sorry. No, I couldn't resist.

No, we don't, we don't, we don't. Okay. Um, no, but, um, but yeah, I think I, [00:51:00] I, I also really like one of the things you were talking about in there, which was, um, kind of this acceptance of failure, right? It's funny, that's actually a talk topic that's come up quite a few times on the podcast, and I think that that's an interesting concept for financial institutions, right?

Like, um, if you look at the, um, you know, true Silicon Valley tech startup with, you know, three people in a garage like. Yeah, failure's an acceptable answer. Like they're just, they're going after it. They're gonna try something, they might have to pivot tomorrow. Um, but as a financial institution as a whole, like failure is not an option.

Right? Um, I mean, look at Silicon Valley Bank. It's kind of a big deal when you fail. Uh, kind of send some pretty big ripple effects and has some pretty major implications on people's lives. Um, so failure as a whole is not a good option. So how do you maintain the stability of a financial institution? How do you maintain account holder trust as a financial [00:52:00] institution?

But how do you also create internally a culture of failure is acceptable? Right? And obviously as leaders, when we talk about failure is acceptable, like. Repeated failure and failure without learnings is not acceptable, but failure because we tried something with, you know, some good bounding boxes around it and a good solid mm-hmm.

Um, you know, hypothesis of why we're gonna try this and some measurable metrics coming out, telling us whether it was or was not a success. Like that should be a great culture. But how do you kind of foster that culture of, um, you know, involving people in this process, getting people excited about the process, making them feel like they have ownership and that failure is acceptable with the right circumstances around it.

Um, within something like a financial institution that can't fail. 

Jin Gwak: I, I guess there's a, some part you cannot fail even any compliance or regulatory and things like that. [00:53:00] We need to make sure that those are the sound. Right. But there are certain things that. You know, along the course of, in the process that maybe there is a misstep or the failure could happen before we all even go into production, to the member facing perspective, right.

Those are kind of the, because in the past we set the time, say, okay, this is the deadline that we need to go live, right? So because of, of the failure means that we cannot miss that deadline of the go live day. We set up, you know, you know, set up. So even though in the course of for implementation, we see there are some misstep or, ooh, that's not, that's not really right, but, Sometimes because of, for the organization doesn't, didn't allow to change those Go live day or the pro production day.

We kind of [00:54:00] do like a mandated for inefficient way to mandate those misstep and then we went live and then that's causing more work or disruption. Things happen. I guess when I say the failure of for, you know, during the course of the implementation there is a misstep we are gonna, you know, discover for when you do the testing or whatever.

It's happen. Then we allow to our team to actually changing those go live date because of the making sure those, we minimize the impact of for the to the member or the our employees. So that's the kind allowance that, because we, we just like simply. Allow the fail or the, it's okay. It's just the course of the, the project.

If there you see the problem, you see that those not gonna be really, um, you know, have an impact, then okay, let's take [00:55:00] a look and then let's change our goal live date. So we allowed to doing that, right? I think that that's gonna really making sure that we are delivering the quality that we promise to the, our employee and also the our member.

So in, in that is a really kind of like a fostering to, it's okay, you're gonna have a failure in the step, so then let's learn that, let's not doing it, and then how are we gonna fixing it? And that it's okay. We could actually change the, you know, the time that we promised and then. Let's not go to, you know, go live with the whatever the tools that we are gonna have.

So that is the really the difference of in the past and then these days. 

Josh DeTar: Um, I'm really curious to get your perspective on this, um, just because I was having this conversation with somebody else this morning. Um, how do you then take what you were just talking about and how do you balance that with [00:56:00] perfect standing in the way of really darn good?

Um, and at what point do you say, Hey, maybe you know, we've had some missteps along the way, or maybe we're thinking about pushing a go live date for something like this. And I think sometimes that can go on indefinitely, right? If you're in search of absolute flawless perfection and saying this is gonna go live to our members.

And not a single member is gonna have a problem with it. There's gonna be zero hiccups, there's gonna be no issues, everything's gonna be perfect. You'll never, ever achieve that. You'll never, right. So how do you balance that with, alright, we've hit the point, like it is good enough, stop. Like we can argue over, you know, this little detail, another six months, but we just gotta take this thing live.

Jin Gwak: So, yeah, so you, you don't wanna be really, as you said, like a paralysis analysis, right? So there is no perfect, even though you put the, any, like a test script [00:57:00] or scenario that you're not gonna catch all. So I guess it is for the, in the agreement in the team say, okay, these are the agreement, uh, for the, when we hit this five milestone or the 10 milestone, and then we make sure that these.

Whatever the, um, you know, the requirement or the milestone that we need to have then okay, now is, are we comfortable to put, go live with that? Right? And then at the time then maybe there are missteps gonna happen because you, you there should be unforeseen, uh, the things will happen, but we know the how to handle that, those case, right?

So I guess it's, uh, the right people involved. Then even the member communication most likely that we have to communicate to the member and things like that. But those people who need to be communicated being. And part of those [00:58:00] process from the beginning, then they don't understand what they need to be done.

So we kind of prepare the worst case. What do we need to do? If things happen, then okay, this is gonna action we gotta take. So they are prepared for the, you know, the mitigate what's gonna be, right? So there is no perfect solution really. You, you going through the analysis, analysis, then you're never gonna go live.

But you have a certain criteria and then certain milestone, certain requirement that we tested it and working fine, then we go live, right? But still that we know the what are the, uh, you know, mitigation we need to do if it's something that happen. And then those people who, so when I say they're the more, how do I say?

Like, Different business unit they require to be part of for the project that actually bring to mitigate for the all the, you know, fire drill is gonna happen if they're not [00:59:00] part of it, then if for them, I don't understand what's going on, so I, I don't have any information. It's gonna fire, you know, fire drill for that particular department.

But if they're part of those process, then it's not a fire, fire drill because they're already part of it and then they're maybe, you know, expecting something could happen in the down 

Josh DeTar: the road. I love that point. That's a really important point I think to touch on is, you know, um, also just having a, a clear definition of what is acceptable and then having a plan to remediate that if it's an acceptable issue.

Right. So saying, Hey, we're gonna go live with this product. You know, what. We could work on this for another six months and maybe we'll solve this problem. But if we just go live today, it's gonna affect 2% of membership and the 2% of membership that's gonna be affected, it's gonna be affected in this way.

And the resolution is this team does this one time manual process, and then it resolves. Mm-hmm. We can do communication and member outreach, we can do education, we can [01:00:00] spin up an internal team with additional resources. We can give 'em a clear, you know, uh, f a q of what they need to do, what needs to be accomplished, the timelines, the expectations.

We have a clear path to remediation for this. So therefore, it's worth it to us to accept this quote unquote failure of this 2% with a defined process for how to, um, you know, go forward rather than, you know, beat our heads against our desk for another six months and stall out a project that then we lose the value.

The opportunity cost of having been live for six months. Right, right. 

Jin Gwak: Absolutely. Um, it's just a balance act. 

Josh DeTar: Yeah. It's, yeah. It's like a, it's a never ending teeter-totter. I think that's what I don't know about you, but like, that's one of the things I find, uh, that's really so fun and invigorating about, you know, being in software and in SaaS is just, it is, it's kind of this, it's this interesting teeter-totter all the time.

And it is, it's a conversation we have all the time with our customers about, um mm-hmm. Is this perfect [01:01:00] getting in the way of really good or, um, you know, is this, is this something we really need to address? Um, and it is, it's just a forever balancing act. And, and like you were saying, I mean, it's just you, you're never gonna get to a point where something's a hundred percent perfect, so, right.

It's a commitment to always making sure that you're iterating. That's gonna make sure that even though you're never gonna be perfect, you're striving for it. And as the goalpost moves, you're moving with the goalpost. Yep. Um, I wanted to come back to something you were talking about earlier mm-hmm. Uh, that I, you know, kind of brush to the side, but you, you'd made a, a couple of comments about just, you know, how technology needs to even just work together.

And that's a big part of your process and how you need to be as a technology leader for a credit union. Kind of looking at the big picture of, you know, if we think too siloed, a lot of times we end up with these siloed products that no longer talk to each other. And, you know, you said you end up with a lot of tech debt.[01:02:00] 

Right. And I think a lot of institutions are in that place today. Where they have a lot of legacy tech debt and a lot of stuff that doesn't communicate. And it's not necessarily the fault of the credit union, right? It's just at that time like technology was not built and designed to interoperate with other pieces of software the way that it is today.

So how do you look at kind of thinking about, um, you know, digital services at your credit union as a platform, and how do you look at balancing the old stuff that you have, quite frankly. And some of it may carry tech debt, some of it may have evolved over the years and be more interoperable, some of it may not have.

And then, you know, how do you balance that with the new stuff you're bringing in to make sure that all of this is as seamlessly as possible working together? Yeah, 

Jin Gwak: so I guess it's for, um, in the past that any many of like [01:03:00] financial services. Really the core provider is dictating the what kind of technology we're gonna use because there are interoperability is a more proprietary or limited and things like that.

So what I kind of brought up to as a strategist for the organization is in the past, the core is the center of the everything. Does it integrate the core or not? And then those are the kind of making detection, uh, um, dictation of the, what technology we bring now that, that we have for sort of kind of middleware platform approach, which is the, you know, a p I driven.

So the core is just one of the data source of that, part of those platform connection, right? So it doesn't have to be relying on to the integration of the core heavily. Right. So is a core is [01:04:00] just a very good with a simple, you know, money management transaction database. So that is a connecting to platform of the a p i structure.

And then, uh, l o s is also the part of the a p i structure to connecting to, so that way that, uh, for the, when you replace something that it may be not heavily rely on to the, whether it's gonna work with the core or not, and then things like that. So in the last four years that, you know, past the, you know, the sum of the technology we have for very highly integrated.

And then we cannot even actually kind of modify anything like this. So we replace it with a more open, open architecture kind of tools so that way that we can connecting more different, uh, you know, data source into that. So that's our C R M system, right? So that platform approach is gonna open up [01:05:00] that, you know, the flexibility of the, what kind of system you're gonna use, and then also the how easily you could transfer the data in the between system.

Because I, I think we are still going through that process in the, my organization. It's not perfect. It's not just a one time you could do all, you have to kind of like, uh, you know, it already process. So there are that, um, you know, The things that we are doing is for try to be really common connection and then have the different system coming in and then it could flow through for, you know, different system that easily.

So that way that we have for the better view of, for, you know, information from the different system. So 

Josh DeTar: can I ask you a super risque question? Yes. I hope, I, I hope I don't make any enemies with this one. What you [01:06:00] kind of talked about, like the core and, and I, I, you didn't quite so subtly say it like the core is almost being relegated to just the system of record, right?

Mm-hmm. And starting to think about using middlewares and other pieces of technology to kind of extrapolate away from the core. And break credit union's dependencies on core for your technology decisions. Um, what do you think the future holds for cores for credit unions and like a middleware as a part of your infrastructure?

Jin Gwak: I think the, I talked to lots of credit union CIOs, and then I think everybody heading toward that way, so they bring to the middleware or the a p i management system so that way they, they could connecting, uh, different system through that. So in the past, the core is the one that really, we wanna put everything in the core because they don't have [01:07:00] any ability for the doing that in the past.

Right. So I think that down the, really the, as I said down the road is the core is not the, the center of the, in, you know, storing all the information. What are the really, the real, uh, Purpose of the core is a transaction. They really good at the transaction, right? The money in and out and calculating for the interest rate or the things like that.

So we keep it that way. And then the about the members or the customer, those, um, you know, the information could be stay on to the different, you know, uh, system rec record, which is the c r M system, right? The c r m is gonna have for, did you like opt out some of the communication or anything? What kind of communication happened and things like that in the past For those, all those information is went into the core.

We gotta kind of break it, right? Because the core is [01:08:00] the one that like, have so much information and then we try to getting out of it. And then sometimes it's a limit to what kind of information we could put it into the core. So what are the really kind of peel off the, those functionality, keeping the core as a.

As are meant to be. And then you have a l o s system because in a, like a particular, like a mortgage origination system, you're gonna have that because there is a specialty for that. So that when I talk to the different c I o, you're not gonna have a one system doing all because there's a specialized, some of the specialize in doing it, right?

But how are we gonna incorporate into data flow so that way that we getting the, um, up-to-date, the right information that is gonna be really driving through the A p i I think there is a long way to go still ourself, our organization that we not really fully utilizing [01:09:00] the sum of the a p I capability, but we are getting there.

But our C R M, the new C R M and how the core works and then where the data coming from. So it is. We really wants to have for the c r m, the what we have for the, any member facing people able to get information from the C R m and then from there that kind of originate the, some, whatever the transaction could happen for.

In the C R M, you don't have to go to the core to do the transaction. The majority of the, you know, the transaction could happen in the core. So they will have for just a single pane of glass, uh, for the, about the member and then they could do the work. That's the kind of my, you know, kind of long vision how you wanna get there, you know, to doing it, you gotta have some kind of, you know, platform approach.

Otherwise you're gonna end it up the spaghetti kind of connection [01:10:00] between system. Then when you are replacing it, then you have to kind, you have to really do all. Kind of integration again. So that's why you need to have a platform approach so that way you could kind of, uh, plug and play. So when I, I use analogy for the Lego, right?

You have a Lego set and I wanna plug, unplug the one of the thing and pull back in. So the Lego platform is, is gonna be the, your a p I platform and then whatever the piece is gonna be, the tools are you're gonna bring because that I won't be able to develop all of them. I need to partner with the FinTech and then those are the very unique particular, uh, tools they're gonna bring.

Then I'm gonna plug that thing into our platform and they're working together. So that's the kind of like approach we gotta do. Otherwise, I don't think that the size of our organization and how the technology moving. In the speed and we never gonna catch up for the what's [01:11:00] happening because I'm not a, you know, JP Morgan or, um, you know, the U s A or anything like that.

It just so that the, I have to partner up with a different company, you know, to e uh, uh, partner up easily. Then we gotta have some kind of a p i structure, which is the platform that is gonna be driving, uh, ability to, to do that. So the long answer, 

Josh DeTar: no, that's a great answer. Um, you know, I think that's a, that is an interesting challenge of, you know, you look at something like a credit union and how many pieces of technology you rely on these days, it's a lot of systems.

Um, and it spans a lot of different business groups. And so getting this. Utopia of all of them perfectly working together and talking, that's really, really difficult. Mm-hmm. And I love your Lego example. Uh, I mean, even just [01:12:00] because I'm a Lego nerd, but, um, you know, yeah. You, you, you, all of a sudden you've been building all of these pieces of Legos together and then you get a Dulo block and you're like, well, I mean, same company, but they don't match together.

Right. And I think there's a lot of that in just, it's, it's virtually impossible to do everything that you're looking to do today with all Legos. Right. Like every once in a while you're throwing in a, you know, a Lincoln log and a DULO block and a, um, because, because that's all that's available. Right. But I do think, uh, kinda like what you were talking about earlier, like you are starting to see, um, more companies with, you know, standard APIs.

Um, and then being able to have, you know, some sort of common connector layer that allows you to plug those in a lot easier. It is making your lives easier, but it's a long process and it's a lot of moving parts. 

Jin Gwak: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I think for the, yeah, I, I could see that whenever I talk to the [01:13:00] different c i o they're, oh yes, this is a what, but it just is sometimes a talent, right?

We don't have a talent for the really taking it on and then if is so it, it will take some time. Right. And then one of the things that, um, I kind of like, um, you know, talking to the different c i o is the like, okay, so you have a, some developer and we have a, some developer, right. And how about the, we kind of work together, like then it pull the developer, so.

Each credit union have a two, you add like a five of them, you have a 10 developer, right? How, how can we share, developing and use that service so then we could develop fast and then our investment is gonna be same, right? But finding those the right team or the, because the, we gotta have a same vision, right?

[01:14:00] So we wanna do the share service or those kind of stuff. And then also the system we are using is, has to be similar, right? It cannot be the, like Fiserv through the Simar or anything like that. It has to be similar shop because we are using simar. Then it has to be the same. But having those that I, so I have like a few conversation of the, okay, let's kind of maybe working together.

But even though it is not having, how do I say? Uh, make it really happen. But there is a desire to the small credit union, like working together and then developing one thing. We are consume all together. That means that the saving the money and that also that we could make it more, uh, development power instead of two is gonna be 10, whatever the, how many is doing it, right?

So those, those are the very interesting. So I, I'm not sure that, um, for, you know, the, your digital [01:15:00] banking platform you have for have, uh, some kind of those, you know, community or things like that to kind of forming together. So you're gonna have a same platform you're gonna use in the client, but let's develop together so that way that we are not spending years.

Let's do, because you have a more resource doing it, right? So, I don't know. That's the kind of idea that, uh, I share with a different, uh, c i o and then, um, I, I really need to make it happen. So that's the kind of my, you know, thought whenever my meet, whenever I'm meeting the c i I share their thoughts. I like, do you wanna do it?

Do it together then Oh, yeah. And then, but it didn't happen yet. 

Josh DeTar: No, I mean, I, I agree. I think, you know, kind of like collaboration is the superpower, right? Mm-hmm. Especially when you're talking about software. Economies of scale are huge. They make a big impact. And especially again, when you're [01:16:00] looking at something like a, a credit union, right?

There's a lot of things that are common amongst you and your peers. Oh, yeah. So there's a lot of things that are different. So, uh, you know, being able to leverage economies of scale for the commonalities, and then focus your efforts on delighters, right? Things that are unique to you or, uh, you know, solve specific, uh, business case objectives for your credit union, or maybe provide a specific value to your members based on who you serve.

Those are the areas I think you should focus your efforts on. Not on the, you know, again, if we're just using digital banking, is the example. Transferring from checking to savings within the institution, right? Right. Like, So, you know, you say you talked to a lot of different CIOs. Um, kind of bringing it back to the beginning, what do you think are some of the things that, you know, make up good traits of how CIOs of credit unions should be thinking given just how, how much this industry has evolved in the last little bit?

Jin Gwak: Uh, I think that really that, um, I mean, I, I [01:17:00] try to be better at it myself. That I, I need, I need, we need to, as a C I O, we need to come in as more of the counselor, right? So we gotta listen more for the other part of it. And then, and then also that we need to be more, uh, um, empathy, uh, for the other people that, because they don't have to be tech savvy.

Because when I talk to some people, they's say, oh yeah, they don't know anything about the technology. But I don't expecting to the, my business unit to be technology savvy because their role is booking the loan. Their role is serving the member. So I don't expecting them, you know, degraded because they don't know anything about technology.

Let me help you, let me go with you. Let me try to be understanding where you're coming from and then utilize my, you know, my team or myself as a resource to be, you know, [01:18:00] what kind of technology we need to bring. So I think that that is a very good trait to have because I deal with, I'm just a judge, Josh.

I deal with a lot of CIOs. Some of 'em, they're very arrogant, right? They just like, oh, I know they don't know anything about, no, you're never gonna be successful. Yeah. Even though learning myself, I need to be more humble. And then really the empathy and the compassion. To the, what they do. So that way I could be more listen and then try to understand where their struggle, and then think about how I could help, how I could enable them, what they need to do.

The knowing that what's out there. I think that's the really key of, for weaving into the business savvy kind of mindset. So I'm practicing every day. I try to be more, uh, patient and then, uh, educate them. And then also that you educate them right in their language. Sometimes you deal with the technology people, they throw it all the technology [01:19:00] jargon.

It doesn't matter because they're not gonna get it. It's just gonna over the head. But you have ability to translate those, the knowledge into the business language so they will understand then that's the, your role need to be. So I, I think for the, um, You know, I, I've been, the reason being I'm in this position that I was, uh, kind of translating for the technology in the business terminology, so that way that I have a very good relationship with each business unit.

And then I just hear, okay, let me figure it out. Right. Let me, you know, hold on, let me find out more. And then I could, I, I hear you. I feel your pain. Right. And then, so finding out the way to help them, I think that's the good trait for the, as a role of the C because it is a service department within. The [01:20:00] organization, right?

So customer service is, goes everywhere and then we are gonna touch the, our employee and then we are gonna touch the, our member. I think that's sometimes the losing sight of it, because I always talking to my teams, we are service organization, we are serving them, right? So without our customer, we not exist.

Right? So thinking about that way, right, but sometimes those tech people, they have a ego of the Oh, I know everything. They don't know anything about it. No, it's not. Because without, without them, we don't exist. Right? So that's gonna kind of put in the different perspective. 

Josh DeTar: I love that you, you know, use humility and empathy as, as traits of, of a good leader and.

Being able to bridge the gap between meeting people where they are, right. And helping to say, Hey, my brain maybe thinks very technologically, your brain maybe [01:21:00] thinks very business. We both need to meet each other where we're at, right? Mm-hmm. And we need to communicate to each other on a human level, um, with humility and grace and empathy and understanding.

'cause that's ultimately what's gonna help lead us to actually solving the problem. Right. I love that. Um, well, Jin, before I, uh, let you go on your evening, uh, I'd love to wrap up with two final questions for you. So, um, one, you know, where do you go to get information about what's happening? I guess I asked to you, like both inside and outside of our industry.

Mm-hmm. Like what are the kinds of things that you're following that, uh, you know, makes your brain get excited and kind of gets you thinking about technology for credit unions differently? So, 

Jin Gwak: uh, I, I think I shared before, I'm podcast junkie. So I listen podcast for, I don't know how many I, you know, kind of sign up.

So either leadership or the credit union or the, you know, technology or what's out there, what kind of technologies happening in the Europe or in things like that. So I [01:22:00] listen a lot and then also that I try to go, um, you know, various conference, so that way I understand what's out there for. And then, uh, also that, uh, in the LinkedIn there's a lot of company, you know, produce a lot of information.

So always I pay attention to, um, things like that. And then, Uh, I like the H B R, you know, that Harvard Business Review, um, business review, that magazine. I really like it. And then also that I like the m i t magazine for, because that's kind of more like a, uh, technology side of it. And then, you know, I read a book, I listen to book, uh, so, but the majority of the daily, my driving for, to, I mean, driving to the work, the, my driving's about 15 minutes from my home to my office.

Then I always listen to podcasts. That's the kind of my regular thing. So different podcasts that I listen for, you know, the [01:23:00] leadership or the payment or whatever, and then things like that. So I'm getting lots of information from, uh, that side of it. 

Josh DeTar: So, Well, uh, your, uh, commission check is in the mail for pumping podcasts all basically.

Um, what about, uh, last question. If people want to learn more about, uh, AmeriCU or connect with you personally, how do they do that? 

Jin Gwak: Yeah, so I don't have any TikTok or Twitter accounts. I have just LinkedIn so that apparently I don't have those and I don't have any Facebook either. So it just so that I I I try to just keep it in LinkedIn.

I think that's enough information I'm getting. So you guys could find, uh, my name Jin, actually my full name is Jin Gwak. So you find the Jin Gwak, then you will see the AmeriCU side of it. Right? And then our, uh, AmeriCU website is, there is AmeriCU website out there, which is the. Dub dub dub dot AmeriCU dot uh, org.

So you could find the, I mean, I mean, we just revamped [01:24:00] our website, so take a look. And then there's lots of information out there. So, you know, that I, I really like the connected people and I really interested learning though how they doing it, so they know that I have a bunch of people connecting in the, I have a, you know, working group even like, uh, in the Slack channel, whatever.

And then even, you know, any kind of different area that, um, you know, I, I, I really like to listen to how they're doing it because I, I like to learn that, what they do because, uh, you know, sometimes that we kind of put in the complacent of the, you know, status code, right? So that's the kind of, you can find me from there.

Josh DeTar: Oh, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking, uh, so much time outta your day. This has been an absolute pleasure to just get to know you and how your brain works a little bit more. And, um, I'm really excited for, you know, the future of community financial institutions in [01:25:00] this increasingly digital, uh, interaction world.

Right. And I think it's really cool to see folks like you, um, really stepping into roles as c i o and thinking a little bit differently about how do we balance, you know, technology and business case. So thanks so much for sharing so many of the learnings that you've had with us that really appreciated it.

Jin Gwak: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a pleasure for, uh, lots of topics and then maybe, uh, yeah, invite me again, so maybe I have a, you know, different story to 

Josh DeTar: share. There you go. I know. Well, again, thank you so much, Jin. I had an absolute blast with you. Um, thank you for being a guest on the Digital Banking podcast.

All 

Jin Gwak: right, thank you.

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