Episode 156 Teaching Digital Accessibility and Inclusive Design to All Faculty and Students Part 2

Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. I'm your host, Jeff Yan. In this episode, you will hear part two of my conversation with Kate Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access. More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

Let me ask you something. Now, I, I know that we have talked about this already. You had talked about, um, public universities as spaces, um, as public spaces, etc. Now you actually also have been involved in higher education for a number of years. That's true. That is correct. Um, obviously you, you, you know, um, I know, you know, as both, you know, a student, but then also, um, you know, had, uh, you had the, I believe that you are the Assistant Director of Inclusion and Academic Technology.

That's right. Yep. Yeah. And this is at Michigan State University, is that right? Yep. Yeah.

And prior to that, you were at, um, DePaul University, which is where, so this is, I think one of those funny, um, just like universe moments. I don't know what to call it, where, so there was a time when I was working on my master's degree at DePaul University in Chicago. Um, I was working in the academic tech office or educational technology office there within the college of education.

And at that time, there were several Uh, faculty and other, um, others outside in the College of Ed and outside of the College of Ed at DePaul who were using Digication, um, and who were introducing it in their courses, um, and right as I was leaving, um, there was some use of it for, um, some of the Uh, teacher certification and I've, the, it has escaped me now exactly what it was, but so I was working with Digication both as a student, submitting materials and using it.

I mean, this was like more than a decade ago. And then when I graduated and I was working in the EdTech office there, um, supporting faculty. and students who are using Digication. And so I, I mean at the time I'm like, this is a great tool, I love this.

Um, and then went to MSU, Michigan State University, and there were a few people on campus using Digication, um, and then it just, it wasn't something that I spent too much time with, but, uh, then it was very, Very funny, I guess is the word, or just one of those moments, um, because it was Mark Thompson who we mentioned earlier, um, I think who sent an email and just said, Hey, you two should know each other. And I just, I was like, this is so funny. I already know who Jeff is.

I know what Digication is. I've worked with it. Uh, and so, yeah, it's, uh, been a great, a great tool. I've, I've really loved watching it grow too, kind of as a, an insider at first, but now, you know, being a partner, of course, but, um, yeah, so it's just, it's a funny, the world is funny, you know, all these things happen. I love these, um, these many overlapping circles that we have.

Yes. And I, I think that there is, I don't know, for me, sometimes the world has a f... humorous way of, of, of putting, um, people with similar interests, you know, together, it's almost like, um, you know, some, some invisible rules and laws and forces that said, right, you guys, uh, you know, interested in this thing. And it's almost like people were interested in music or sports or arts or whatever, you know, and it's like you find each other, right?

So, um, I think that, Unfortunately, the accessibility circle seems it's growing, of course, but it's small enough that we were able to, you know, have all these overlaps. Uh, but that's also, also very fortunate because I got to see all of your good work over the years and it's pretty, pretty amazing. Um, and I, I love, I still remember, you know, our very first. No, I guess it's not our first meeting, but, well, our...

Our first meeting with you being the executive director of Teach Access and you're like, you know, we know each other. I mean, to be fair, Jeff, to be fair, I wasn't, I think we were probably in maybe one or two meetings where we, you know, but it was a group of people and there were, um, some colleagues, some great colleagues of mine who are, who are still working at DePaul, wonderful people who were working with you more often. So, yeah.

In no way did I expect that you would remem... you would have remembered me specifically, but you know, it was sort of those group meeting situations, but it was, yeah. It was funny. Oh, it's really fantastic.

And I will say that, you know, our, our own journey, um, I'd imagine that when we were working, when you were at DePaul, which would have been, you know, it was like 2009 to 2014. So it's early enough that, um, whatever accessibility work that we did back then was minimal.

Like we just were not aware or are, I mean, look, people are sort of aware, but like, you know, we, we just didn't have to know what all the, don't know how, um, the community wasn't really matured enough, we couldn't agree on some, you know, on things and there was a lot, I still remember there were a lot of, um, sort of things like. It's definitely a nice to have because by the time it gets to like implementing it, everyone does it differently. And then it doesn't kind of work.

And, and, and, and the, I still remember my first exposure to, um, it was, um, Screen Reader. So for people who don't know what screen reader is, right, A Screen Reader is, um, usually an Assistive technology that exists on your, you know, as a piece of software or in your operating system, on your phone, on your computer, where it tries to read out, you know, what's on the screen for someone who might be visually impaired, right?

And I still remember at the time, um, the, Only screen reader or the only like usable screen reader was JAWS. And that, um, I still remember that it ran on windows and that, uh, windows only, and that it's for people's general experience is that every, uh, I don't know, every 10-15 minutes. They have to restart the operating system because it actually crashes and doesn't work. But now we have to remember, this is not JAWS's fault necessarily. We have to remember back.

Like if we push back many years ago on our computer, hardware isn't there. Think about like speech to text technology, right? That theory didn't exist. We were not used to the current fidelity of things, right? So as technology becomes better and better, in fact, many of the big tech companies are the one that pushed it, right? Like I think Siri and maybe even Alexa created a computer generated speech experience that we can be like.

I could live with it and now AI actually had made it even like now it's a little bit, you know, in fact, scary, right? Um, but, but, but, but it's, it was something that we really could live with. We can say, yeah, I could listen to this in general and, and, and can see that that technology can really become matured. But back in the days it was hard, which is why I think that there's a, this catch up, you know, sort of period. Um, I just hope that it doesn't.

Take too long for the catch up to happen, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Um, so speaking of, um, uh, the, your experience with education, I wanted to just say how thankful I am because of your Active participation in understanding the experiences of students and teachers. Yes. We were able to really quickly, and you helped us, helped Digication create a set of guides for students and for faculty members.

It's a self serve, really easy to consume, really quick, just in time, where we have made the decision to include all the information now into, um, the most, into our most prominent real estate, you know, in our digital space, which is everywhere that a student might be creating any kind of work, they will see a button on accessibility and it will include the guide that we partnered on and created together. Thank you so much for doing that. That is just...

Oh my gosh, I need to be thanking you, yeah, yeah. Thanking you and your whole team for, for doing that. Because I think what it demonstrates is, you know, I think we've said the word easy a couple of times, or, um, you know, There are, sure, there are things about accessibility and digital accessibility that are not easy, that are very challenging.

But generally speaking, there are a lot of things we can do to make our content more accessible, including students who are publishing their portfolios, um, including faculty who are preparing their students to publish their portfolios that really make a difference. And, and I also, you know, one of the things we often say too is start somewhere. Just get started. No, you're not going to be an expert tomorrow. You may never be an expert.

Um, you may never want to be an expert, but, but get started, do something. And I think, you know, earlier you were mentioning as someone who, you know, hires, is hiring people are looking for that. I mean, as students are putting their work out there, being able to demonstrate, hey, I know what accessibility is, generally speaking, and I have done a couple of things to my portfolio to make it more accessible, that indicates a lot. You know, they're thinking about inclusivity.

They're thinking about the different ways they're presenting their materials, um, and their artifacts, uh, and, and their work to the world. Um, there are other pieces around accessibility that also include or also improve things like Search Engine Optimization, like when we're talking about Alt Text, so there's a lot that adding accessibility, um, is good for all of those things, right? That's sort of that other bucket of stuff. This is great.

But also more importantly, it's creating something that is accessible for people with disabilities. So, you know, the hiring manager who may have a disability or, um, whoever, whoever, whoever it is that you're trying to reach with your work, you want to get it out there and you want to share it, make it accessible. And, and I, so I really am so grateful to all of you at Digication for recognizing that and, and really building that in.

Because it also kind of helps students understand that it isn't a whole big, extra big thing. That's going to take all your time. Hey, you're getting ready to publish. Here's the little checklist. I know that that's probably not what you're exactly calling it, but here are the steps to get ready to publish. Did you check this? Did you check this? Did you check this?

Accessibility is one in a number of things, which also really speaks to what we're trying to do, which is really, um, um, You know, ubiquitous is a big word, but so in trying to think in plain language here, you know, really make it something that appears alongside everything else. It becomes a very typical thing that I expect to do when I'm about to publish my work. I'm going to check on this thing. I'm going to check on this thing. One of them is about accessibility. One of them is not.

But they're all together because it's all equally important for me to do these things before I publish my work. And so, I mean, a big thank you to you all for recognizing that and being able to add that, um, and put that into the platform. It's, it's phenomenal.

It's great. Well, I, I wanted to say that Obviously, accessibility itself is, you know, like, I think we all agree, you and I agree, and many people agree that it's, it's, it just becomes part of our literacy, becomes part of everyday life, and we need to honor that. But I also wanted to say that there is, you know, for those who are more into, like, you know, listeners who are teachers, who are faculty members, who are thinking, well, you know, I teach, Biology. I teach whatever.

Like, how does that relate to me? Aside from, I already know about the, I need to be able to help any of my students who might have disabilities, etc. You know, to consume my content and communication, etc. But I also think there is some deeper pedagogical, um, connections that I wanted to make here. So, for example, we have talked a bit about Alt Text today.

Alt Text is, you know, when you put up an image somewhere, you want Someone who are visual, who's visually impaired, who can still be able to enjoy that, be able to consume that by you being able to put up oftentimes a small and concise description or a caption, um, that talks about what it is, right? That you, you've put up, um, and... Interestingly, um, I had done some experiment with users in general, right? And we started talking about, well, what's good Alt Text? What's not?

And, you know, and people can get, you can get, you can nerd out on that itself, which is for sure. Funny sometimes, right? But it's all in the name of like learning and gaining, gaining experience. Sometimes you just have to, right? Are you, you know, are you, are you focusing on a flower in the middle of room or the fact that you're in a room, right? So you're, you're, you're trying to figure all that out, you know, what's important, but that in and of itself is what I'm talking about.

There is some pedagogical value to, if I am trying to express myself, I put up a page in Digication, or it doesn't matter as a Digication, it's, it's, you know, you're doing a project, you're trying to put a piece of visual media to, to help represent yourself or your ideas or the concept, right? Maybe it's a very poetic, you know, sort of, you know, analogy. Maybe it's a, just a busy background. We don't know yet. When you actually make that.

I find that when you actually make that Alt Text, when you start to write, well, what is it? It actually helps you both try to figure out, well, sometimes you put up something, you don't even know why, you just kind of throw it up there, almost like, you know, some putting some background image together, right? And just to set the mood, maybe that's what it is. And that's, you need to acknowledge that and know that. And then there are times where you go.

Oh, this is really meaningful to me because I'm trying to tell a story of, I don't know, immigrants. And this is actually a photo of my grandparents coming to this country or what have you. And that meaning can be so powerful. But if you didn't get to, almost in this case, highly encouraged, if ....., You know, really like asking you, like, Hey, please put, put in a description here. Now you, you got to think about it a little bit more. You start to make a, huh?

You know what, now that I've written that I've even had the experience where I wrote the description for the first image and I go, I have another one that's like this. I should add to it. Right. So there is a direct pedagogical. Set of innovation that you can do with your students and the nuance, like experience of having to think deeply about how you are treating your own content that you are, you know, producing and curating and creating.

Is a, is a, is a wonderful way to think more deeply about, you know, how you reflect on your own learning and integrate with the different aspects of life. And I just think that, again, you know, in this case, it's not like only accessibility is good for business. This is actually, accessibility is good for learning too, for the individuals who are just writing up what would have been otherwise a paper, right? I love this. I'm in, I'm in agreement with you.

One of the things, so when I was working at Michigan State University, um, and working in accessibility there, it was around supporting, you know, this teaching accessibly piece. So thinking about what do we need to do to create inclusive and accessi..., accessible, um, classrooms, um, materials, uh, and supporting faculty and doing that.

And what you're talking about reminds me sometimes the conversation we would have around Alt Text, since we're on that topic, you know, Yes, sometimes I was just throwing on, throwing up an image. I don't know. It's just a, it's a good image and there was also a, I'm going to just put this image up and I'm going, you know, as a, as a instructor, um, I'm going to, um, assume that, um, When Jeff sees that image, he'll know what I intended with it.

You know, aside from the choosing the image side and the intentionality behind what am I trying to convey? It was also, I mean, this came up a lot and, and it really helped inform my thinking around accessibility as well as a pedagogical move, um, was, okay, well, I put up this, this image and I assume, or my expectation is that all my students will see it on my slide deck and they'll know that that's what I mean, or that that's what they should get out of this image. Or graph or whatever.

Um, but as it turns out, Jeff is in my classroom and he looks at the image and he thinks about something else because of his Lived Experience or, you know, where he's just, whatever it is, he's in a different, he's having a different sort of day. And so he sees it and he thinks something. Right.

So then what's happened is that I let an image do a lot of work and maybe I didn't spend time describing that image in class, or maybe it's something in a You're going to get something different out of it than maybe others in the class. And maybe that's the right thing. Maybe that's the wrong thing. However, we want to classify it. Um, and so when we think about Alt Text, uh, in this way, it helps us think about, okay, why are we choosing this image?

And what we often saw kind of building off of this is, you know, a faculty member might choose an image and start typing out the Alt Text. And now all of a sudden we have two paragraphs as the Alt Text. And it's like, well, hold on a second. If. If you, you know, if you're using this image to convey that much information, it probably means this image is very important to understanding of whatever the concept is.

So let's consider how you can take that two paragraph Alt Text, which is way too long, and put it into your slide deck or put it into your discussion for the class or put it into your text or whatever it might be so that the image is still there, of course, but you have become a more explicit instructor to say, hey everybody, look at this image. You might see this, this, and this in there, and here's why this is significant to what we're talking about.

And so I think there, that is a phenomenal way that accessibility really can be sort of this feedback loop for us as instructors and educators to think, okay, if I need to spend one second thinking about what I'm about to share with my students, let me actually spend that one second thinking about. Why am I doing that? Let me reflect on it.

And if I'm assuming or expecting that it's going to do all this heavy lifting and I haven't been explicit with my students, chances are very good someone will miss that because for so many reasons, right? So I think your example is so great. Um, and I, I definitely agree. Uh, it's, it's an important piece of it.

Um, I, I think that it would be Really useful for folks to learn about some of the resources that Teach Access has that is not necessarily going to be part of what they will see on the Digication, you know, sort of interface because Teach Access is a lot more deeper set of resources than what, you know, we have included in the, in, in, in, on, on our, you know, in our product page.

Um, so, um, I, I, I'm going to jump, you know, give you a jump off point because I think that these are things that I, I've seen and I just love them so much. You have, for example, opportunities for faculty members to get involved, further involved. So meaning those ones that are saying, Hey, this, I've, I've been exposed to it now, but I want more. I want to rethink help with... get some help thinking about my curriculum, thinking about my whole course. Can I get help?

And I know that you provide that and I want you to talk about it. Similarly, students can, you know, can, can get resources. Um, can we talk about that? Because I think that there will be people, right? Whether it be people who listen to this and go, you know what? I should check this out. Right. Um, or that they saw our, you know, you know, sort of, uh, our experience, you know, through, you know, building something in Digication and they go, Oh, well, what is this? Can I learn more?

Can you tell, tell us a little bit more now about like, what's, what's, what are some of the top resources that you recommend people check out? Love that. Thank you for this question. And I do hope people come and check it out. So, um, Some of the top resources that we have, um, for faculty who are ready or would like to think about, okay, I'm ready to be teaching this.

Um, we have something called the Teach Access Curriculum Repository and it's a free open educational resource or OER repository with more than 350, I think, at this point, different individual curricular items that are divided into a dozen or so different discipline areas. Um, and these are all under a Creative Commons license so that you are free as an educator to go in there, take, and adapt for your own class and your own teaching. Um, but it's a variety of things.

Sample syllabi, um, uh, slide decks, assignment prompts, um, discussion posts, et cetera, that you can go and take and adapt and put into your course. They've been created by other educators who have used them in their courses. And so the idea is that, hey, I'm ready to teach, or I want to look at some materials and see how I can add this to a course I'm already teaching. So that's out there, free and open. Along those lines, we have some self guided or self paced asynchronous courses.

Again, in some discipline topics that if you're like, I'm wanting to do this, but I'd like a little more information for myself, you can go in and learn about your discipline area and accessibility to help set you up for that.

And then we have a few other programs, um, that are more kind of hybrid, um, or, or fully synchronous virtual, of course, all of them right now, uh, where you can be in community in a cohort, um, with other professors from across the U S other educators who are looking to also be teaching. And so we pull from those two pieces I talked about the repository and the, um, the self paced courses. Um, but. We work together with faculty to, to work through what is this?

What is it gonna look like to teach it? Um, and, and a little bit set them up to become advocates. So, okay, go to your campus and tell your colleagues. Go to that conference and tell your colleagues. Um, so that's really sort of the... the highlights for, um, that and I should note very importantly, um, some of them, we actually provide stipends, um, for faculty to participate. So we provide you funding to be able to do this as well.

Um, recognizing time is important and when we want to honor that, um, and same. On the student side, not, not same as in we're providing funding for students, but um, right now we have some virtual offerings where students can hear directly from industry partners. Um, they can hear directly from other faculty, uh, accessibility experts, as well as disability, um, non profit, um, advocates.

And so there are programs where Someone from a company will come in and talk about, Hey, here's what accessibility looks like at this company. Um, here's what my job looks like. Um, here's an interesting topic around accessibility or disability that we're going to talk about that I do in my work. Um, and so it's really a space where students can hear directly from people who are doing this work right now. Um, and obviously build their network.

Um, and so think about building their network with each other. They're future colleagues, right, who are in school with them right now. Um, but also the people that they'll want to connect with in companies they go work for or in general. So, um, the other thing is everything is free. So all of the things I've talked about, anything you find on our website is free. Um, we don't charge for people to be able to access these things.

Um, don't want to add that extra barrier, um, for people to be able to, to get this information. So, yes. And how, how do you provide these things for free? Um, you know, how, um, how does, um, how, how is Teach Access funded? Yeah, great question. So, um, as a non profit, we're funded in ways that many non profits are. So, so we do get funding, um, sponsorship from companies, industry. Um, so they'll provide sponsorship for us.

Um, we also, of course, accept Donations from people who are excited about our cause and are in a position to be able to give. Um, so we have individual donors, um, and then we're working on different types of grants. Um, you know, for example, in NSF funding, we're working with some faculty, hopefully, uh, on different ways that we can do this work, um, in, within those grants. Um, so other types of federal grants, um, and then of course foundations and those sorts of things.

So. Yes, it's a, it's a mix. So if any listeners here today, um, identifies with Kate's and her team's mission, um, on, you know, these ways of, she's already done so much, you know, with, with, you know, you know, with so little and being able to, you know, provide all these resources to the world.

Um, And, and I think that we can all see it's just a really smart way by design because you are getting faculty members and teachers to be get involved and they are the ones who is going to then, you know, one of them may, may, may on an annual basis, you know, come across a couple hundred students or something more and imagine the kind of Um, exponential reach that you can have. So for every dollar that you donate, for every dollar that you support this organization, it gets used so well.

Then this is why I love this organization so much. And I also want to say that for those who are employers. There's one resource that I've looked at and I love. And do you want to talk about it? The tool kit? Yeah, is it the hiring tool kit? I'm guessing. Yeah, I know it's so, so, um, I'll give a little, I know we're probably nearing time here, but, um, you know, when we think about the work we do, we really are thinking about, you know, the educational approach.

We're thinking about supporting faculty, um, curriculum design, development, et cetera, and students. Um, so we aren't necessarily sort of strictly a workforce development organization, although we're part of that conversation, right? Because what we're doing is trying to close that gap we were talking about.

And so recognizing that, we thought, you know, all right, so we're working with faculty, they're excited, they're teaching hundreds of students, students are getting excited, they're getting ready to go out and look for jobs. And how do we create a space where students can Find and identify organizations that are looking for their skills. And so we've created something called the Accessibility Technology Skills Hiring Toolkit.

Again, free resource, uh, created together with educators, industry, disability groups. And the idea behind this is that you, if you are in any sort of hiring position. An HR manager, or just, you, you, you write job descriptions. You can go here. I think right now we have around a dozen sort of, um, what I'll call sort of generic, uh, job descriptions.

You know, Product Manager, Front-end Designer, etc. Um, and we have, uh, several different, bulleted lists items that you can copy and paste into your own job descriptions that indicate here's, you know, we're hiring a Front-end... entry-level Front-end Developer, here's the stuff we would love for that person to know about accessibility. Um, not again, not an expert. This is not an accessibility specific role, but just we'd like them to know that the web content accessibility guidelines exist.

We'd like them to know whatever that might be. Um, so you can copy and paste. Right into your own job descriptions. And then we've also provided some sample interview questions. So recognizing sometimes the person who's written the job description or, you know, the team that this, this employee might go on to, isn't necessarily who's doing the interviewing. There's a hiring manager or an interviewer.

Um, and so providing some questions to help ask Hey, do you actually know what the, what WCAG is? Where would you go to find it? You know, some, some, some ways to help prepare. This is the answer we're looking for. Just interviewing with me, and if he says something along these lines, that's a thumbs up. That means he knows whatever it is that I'm trying to screen for, um, when it comes to accessibility skills. So, it's, we continue to add to it. So this is one way people can contribute.

Um, we, we are always looking for more people if they're like, Hey, I often hire for this type of job and this would be great if people had this entry level knowledge, we welcome that. Um, we want to make sure that this resource is something that is relevant and usable. Um, so. If you're interested, let us know. We'd love to be able to bring you in and have you help and volunteer with creating that resource or building the resource out. Um, I, I love that.

I think that it's, it's just wonderful that you are thinking about all the different, You know, different components that goes into, into, into the ecosystem, right?

And, and all of the people that are involved and you are so smart and trying to get them to, to be able to, you know, provide the resources that can be reused over and over again, and ultimately just powering them, making them, um, You know, have the, have the, have the ability to develop all of those, those, those, those literacies, literacy skills. You know, we, we already talked about students. We talked about, you know, the educators. Now we're talking about the employers as well, right?

So, you know, you're going to reach more and more of this. And for those who are, um, faculty members and careers people, you're listening to this. I'll tell you like my, like when, when I saw this first hiring, you know, toolkit, my first thought was, wow, that would be a really cool backward design hack by seeing what questions, you know, like, you know, like the industry is going to end up.

Asking of our students and being able to go, are we teaching these things at school or are we setting our students up to fail because they're going to go into these meetings and they're going to ask them these questions and they're going to, you know, be like, wait, what are we talking about? Right. And so, um, And I'm not saying specifically like teach the test, but you need to figure out where the world is going.

And I think that this is sort of, you can see the tea leaves now, like, Kate, you've, you've sort of laid it out. And, and I think people, you know, need to now go in and recognize them.

Well, Hey, listen, I know that we can, we can talk for a lot longer. Cause I feel like that we have in other occasions, but. Um, I, I, um, I really, really appreciate you sharing your insights. I think that your passion to accessibility is infectious. Um, and, um, and your organization is doing such amazing work. I am so, so proud to be able to call you a partner and a friend. And I, I really look forward to our continuing, um, collaboration.

And, um, for anyone who is also interested in Kate's and her team's work, please go check out TeachAccess.org. We will list a bunch of those resources that she mentioned in the, in the, in the show notes. But you know how, you know, a, a di highly dynamic organization like this will constantly have new resources, et cetera. So following them on the, on social media and checking out their website, looking for their news would be a, would be a good way to go.

Uh, Kate also appears often at various conferences, um, and, and, and, and, and public, um, you know, events. And so look out for her. Um. If you enjoyed listening to her today here on Digication Scholars Conversations. Yes, thank you so much, Jeff. Thank you for having us, uh, us meeting the larger Teach Access. I know it was just me today and my cat in the background. There is a cat here. Uh, for those who aren't watching on, on, um, on the video, there is a cat joining us.

Uh, but yeah, thank you so much for, for making the space for us, um, to partner with you. We. We're so thrilled about it. And yeah, happy to, to anyone who wants to reach out, learn more. We really encourage that. Okay. All right. Well, take care of Kate and talk to you soon. Thanks Jeff. Bye.

Coming up next, we'll be chatting with Brittany Linus, a recent graduate of Stanford University. Here's a quick preview. I was just perusing the homepage and I was just like, of course, every website, every school is going to have short, concise information and all the beautiful pictures of the campus and then in the classroom. I'm looking forward to it. for the dirty stuff. I'm looking for what is going on in the maker spaces, the artist spaces. I want to know really what Stanford is all about.

Um, and that's when I discovered Stanford University's Design School. And I remembered on literally on the website, scroll down, it said, We are here to get stuff done and to get stuff done creatively.