Episode 155 Teaching Digital Accessibility and Inclusive Design to All Faculty and Students Part 1

Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. I'm your host, Jeff Yan. In this episode, you will hear part one of my conversation with Kate Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access. More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on YouTube or your favorite podcast app. Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

My guest today is Kate Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access. Hi, Kate. Hi, Jeff. It's so good to be here. It's really great to see you again. And, uh, Kate, um, now, Teach Access is a non profit organization. Um, I want, why don't you tell us a little bit about, um, what Teach Access is so that we are all grounded to, to this, this episode. I think it's going to be really exciting. A lot of our listeners will be very excited about what you have to say.

Yes. Thank you so much, Jeff. And again, thanks for having me. So glad to be here.

Um, so Teach Access, uh, as you said, we're a non profit organization. Um, we're based here in the U S. We're fully remote, so we don't actually have sort of a home base. I'm based in Michigan, we have other team members in Michigan, Tennessee, Puerto Rico, but we, we collaborate with people across the U. S. Um, and our mission is to support, Educators and faculty, uh, to teach about accessibility, digital accessibility and dis and disability.

Um, and so our, we also have programs that, that support students as well, and I'm sure we'll get into some of those. Um, but our mission is to really think about what is it that educators and faculty need in terms of resources, Curricular materials, trainings to feel informed and comfortable to be able to teach these topics to their students, um, with the ultimate goal of closing what we call the, um, Accessibility Technology Skills Gap.

Sorry, I stumbled there a bit, um, but this idea that industry and definitely the tech industry, but, but all industry is looking for recent graduates, um, From from higher ed, uh, who knows something about accessibility and who knows something about disability, um, so that as they enter into jobs, internships in these organizations, they know to include accessibility from the beginning, um, so that products and services are born accessible is what we call it.

So this idea that, you know, you and I are starting to work together and we want to develop a new app, um, and I know that accessibility is something we should consider, um, and, and you do too. So we know, ah, we have to include that from the beginning, um, because We know that things will be put out into the marketplace that are not accessible, and of course what that means is that people with disabilities cannot interact with those products or have difficulty interacting with that.

And so the idea is really we're laying this groundwork, we're trying to close the skills gap so that as companies are hiring students and recent graduates They know that accessibility will be included from the beginning. Um, and so we do a lot of work that I know we'll dive into. Um, but that's, that's our mission. That is what a wonderful, wonderful introduction. And what a, um, what a, what a, what a great mission.

And I should, I think it would be important for our listener to know that, um, for those who don't already, Digication, um, and Teach Access, um, have a partnership where, uh, we have, you know, we, I think. I think you and I met through, I actually don't remember how we met, but I know that we have a, um, a friend in common and who is Mark Thompson, who happens to be another Digication Scholar. And he is, uh, Season Three, Episode 28. Those are, that's what's in my notes.

And he's, um, he's from University of Illinois in Urbana Champaign, who is an accessibility universal design guru. Um, And, um, I believe that he was in one of your, uh, founding board members or something, right, at Teach Access? Yes, yes. He's been, he's been with Teach Access since we kicked off in 2016 and has been just a constant support and, and volunteer and just always willing to share his knowledge.

And, and, and that's part of our work too, is, is building this network of other educators.

Incredible educators like Mark, um, as well as people in industry, disability advocacy, non profit groups, um, really building a network to help do this work, um, because we can't do it alone, uh, and, and Mark has been incredible in coming and talking with other faculty about, here's what I've done in my courses and how I've taught this, or, um, providing ideas on how they could be teaching it in their courses. So Mark is a big, big, big friend of Teach Access.

And so we, and I, and, and, and he's a big friend of Digication as well, which I think is so lovely. And, and I think that the, um, uh, I think based on all of that circles, we have overlapping because we obviously both have interest in it, in, in accessibility. Um, we got to know each other and know, uh, having learned about your mission, in which case does not really do a lot of, um.

You know, this level of partnership with organizations, but when we learned about your mission, we thought, wow, what an amazing set of resources.

And, and since we work with a lot of faculty members and students across many universities and K 12 schools, we thought, wouldn't it be nice if we can, um, uh, you know, promote some of the resources that Teach Access has to offer, which is genuinely just good content for both faculty members and students, good for teachers and students who are maybe, you know, know, have heard a little bit about accessibility, but don't know, don't know how to do it, you know, aside from maybe

the limited experiences with, oh, right, a video should have um captions and audio should have transcripts maybe, and that might be the extent of what they know. Um, and so what, you know, and, and, and it may not even be a huge part of, you know, what they do day to day. And, and, and for us to have an opportunity to... to, to provide some really quick, easy to digest resources for them. Um, you know, is, is a wonderful thing.

Um, we don't necessarily need them to get a PhD in it, but, you know, knowing that is, is, is, is just the, the basic foundation. Like you said, that skill gap promotes the idea that whether they're building an app or providing services, you know, to, to, to their community, how, how can accessibility be born with that idea? You know, that comes with everything that they do. So maybe I would just clarify one thing, which is.

You know, we, you use the example of what if we build an app together, right? It sounds very Silicon Valley, right? But there's also the same as if you are a journalist and you're going to go and work for a newspaper, a more traditional media company when, but you are still, it doesn't matter what your job is. You could be a writer. You could be an editor. You could be a photographer, but you are going to.

Still advocate for accessibility at whatever job that whatever way that you contributed to society. And I think that is just what an amazing mission, Kate. Thank you so much for bringing this, this, um, this organization to life and, and, and, and, and, and heading it. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

I think you really, um, noticed something that is really part of our ethos is this Everybody should know a little bit, um, so one of the phrases that we like to use a lot is we are about breadth more than depth, um, and you kind of hinted at this in a few different ways, um, but this idea that we're really trying to get a lot of people to know at least a little bit, um, of course that doesn't mean that it will take care of all the accessibility needs, um, that exist.

For all types of disabilities, of course not. Um, but imagine what the world would be like if everybody at least knew, Hey, you know what? Accessibility has to be a part of the work that I do. Just like you said, no matter where I'm at, you know, if you're a journalist, what, what language choices are you making in terms of the way that maybe you're talking about people with disabilities? Or, um, you know, ableist phrases or using plain language.

Um, and then of course the type of media you're creating, what are you doing to make sure that that media and the, and the stories that you're putting out and information is accessible to people with disabilities. And that's really what we're looking at is. If everybody knew a little bit, um, think of how we would continue to advance, right? We will always need people who are accessibility experts. They're crucially important to us being able to do this work.

Imagine if their time was able to be spent more on some of those challenging accessibility questions. How to make different things function in different ways. Um, and maybe less time, less of their time, you know, training incoming new hires on This is what alternative text is, or here's what the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are. Um, if everyone kind of understood, yeah, those things are out there, um, I know how to do some of this.

I know where to go to find more information, or have to call in the, you know, the internal accessibility team, because this one is a little bit more than what I'm Aware of enough to be able to do, uh, if that makes sense. So, um, it's really part of what we're trying to do is broad understanding about accessibility. Um, of course, if you look at disability, um, statistics, there's so many different places you can go to find this information, but.

For example, the World Health Organization estimates that about 20 percent of the population, world's population, has a disability. It's likely higher, right? Because it's self reported data, and there's all sorts of reasons that people choose not to report or aren't aware that they have a disability, perhaps, or don't think of it as a disability, or whatever that might look like. So that means that one in four people, uh, Actually, that's, yeah, a little higher than that, I guess.

25%, one in four people has a disability, um, or knows somebody who has a disability. And so when you think of it that way, no matter what you're doing, somebody will interact with, with your work who identifies as disabled or knows someone who has a disability. So it's crucial that we all are aware of this.

Um, another thing that, that, We talk about often with faculty and students is that, you know, the disability community is one that any of us could enter and at any time in our life, um, permanently, temporarily, situationally. And so when we think of other types of, um, identity groups that some of us are born into, we're, we're members of those groups, right? Our whole lives. Um, disability is one that you can be born into, but you can also join at any point. At any time.

And so it truly does affect all of us in some way. And so the more we can bring awareness to that, that this is part of human, you know, this, this is, these are humans. We're humans. Um, it's, it's important to, to be able to do that. So I think that's, that's, that's really, really great. I, I, I wanted to paint a little picture for, for us to ponder a little bit, which is, you know, like, even if you are not someone who feels like, You're not, um, you know, I'm not designing a product.

I'm not responsible for any of that. I think, like you said, to participate does not require you to do any of that. So for example, today we, we, um. Many of us actively participate in, you know, social media such as, um, TikTok and Instagram. Most of these, you know, services are not designed with accessibility in mind at all. In fact, many of them, um, You know, it's not even in the roadmap. There is no way to, to make it accessible.

The, the product itself was not like you said, born with accessibility as part of its formulation. Um, in fact, I would probably say that for, for, for many of these services, they have given up on people who would not be able to access their service and they're okay with it. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, that's an interesting question. I, so I have to say, you know, part of the, the, um, work that we do and the collaborations we have are with a lot of tech companies.

Um, that's really where we were born out of, actually. Conversations that, um, some people at Facebook, now Meta. We're having with some folks at Yahoo and, and they were identifying the skills gap and this was back in like 2015. I mean, it's existed longer than that, but in 2015, they were saying, you know, we can't, when we're hiring recent graduates, they don't know about this. And so, you know, I, there's, Always room for improvement.

You know, we're never, we're never done with accessibility. We never are 100 percent done with it because there will always be, you know, a new update or, or you meet someone, um, or someone is using your product who has a specific, um, type of disability that you hadn't thought about or considered and, and, you know, need to go back and take a look at how, how to make it work. Um, so.

While there's plenty of, of space for improvement, um, I do think there's, you know, a number of, of companies that we work with who have internal accessibility teams, um, who are working really hard to figure out how to, uh, create new products that are accessible, but also remediate what exists out there. Um, and I think, I think there's, There are all types of people at every stage, right, of the process in making their products and services accessible.

So, um, but that's what our hope is, right? If we can continue to reach, or as we continue to reach all of the students that we can, they come into these organizations, whether it's Tech or any organization, any industry, and they can start to really move that needle, right? That every meeting, someone saying, we have to make this accessible. How do we do that? Um, or, or where do we go to make that happen?

So, you know, it's a big, It's a big undertaking, uh, for all of us, but, but an important one. So, yeah, I, I agree. And I, and I think that, you know, to the picture that I was going to paint, which was, you know, it might come a time where products in general will find itself being. Oh, we have to address this because our consumers are knowledgeable enough that they expect it, right?

So similar to if you, you wouldn't be able to, I mean, if I go into a brand new restaurant today and that this restaurant is not, you know, accessible by wheelchair, I would notice it and I'll be like, well, how, how would you serve that? And how did you even get to this point where you can have a restaurant that is new? Right. And, and, and it's something that you'd, you'd, you'd, you would, you would sort of go, you would, you would ask questions about it.

And, and I think that that's, um, that's a really healthy thing. It's a healthy thing for our society. It's a, you're almost like giving it some, you mean it, uh, um, uh, What, what is it that I'm going to, I'm trying to say you're, you're giving it, um, sort of a defense mechanism, you know, a self corrective self, um, mechanism by letting all of us, letting the general society gain a higher level of awareness of digital accessibility.

We just talked about wheelchairs, which many of us would, would know and notice, you know, right. Right. But when we are then starting to talk about, um, digital accessibility, we're not there yet, right? Like you, as you mentioned, all alternate texts for images, I'm sure that some of our listeners will go, well, what is that? Absolutely.

Um, and, uh, but, you know, As they learn more about it, then it becomes something that they go, okay, I may not even be the one who's creating something that will use this alt text or have anything to do with it. But if I come across someone who talks about it and saying that they, they, they can't access an image because it was lacking this text, I would know what it is. And I would know that They should have done it, and they would demand it, right?

And I think that that's, that's what it's about, right? Getting that, that, that literacy out to people. It really is. And I think, you know, it's interesting. You bring up the idea of how we notice if something maybe isn't wheelchair accessible, um, versus, you know, thinking about digital spaces and accessibility.

And some of that is by nature of, um, So we, we know about the Americans with Disabilities Act. Um, and prior to that there were other pieces of legislation, um, the Rehabilitation Act, um, and others who were identifying in the ADA for short Americans with Disabilities Act. ADA was signed into law in 1990, so not that long ago really. Um, but what that did lay the groundwork for, and what that required was that we have to make public spaces and, and others accessible. You know, physical spaces.

And so, you know, people I think have a more, um, a longer, have had a longer chance to understand, like, okay, I understand what that means. There needs to be wheelchair accessibility into a building, or there needs to be braille, um, available and in signage and so forth. Um, where was the internet in 1990? I mean, it existed, but not like it does now. Right? I mean, not like it did even 20 years ago. Uh, and so...

It's been, I think what you've identified is, is what a lot of us have been working on in accessibility is that, you know, general public awareness, if you talk about disability, um, or accessibility as it relates to physical buildings, it's like, oh, yeah, I understand that means we have to uh, you know, an elevator, whatever, whatever those things may be. There's many.

Um, they're just, there's no real legislation that's been around as long to say, here's what it has to look like for digital spaces. Um, there is something for, for listeners, if they aren't familiar with, it's called the Web Accessibility Content Guidelines or WCAG. Some people pronounce that acronym WCAG or WCAG. It's, you know, any number of ways. Um, but this is a set of guidelines.

It's not legislation, it's not a law, um, but it's a bunch of very intelligent people who know what they're doing with accessibility who've come together to put together, um, the set of guidelines to help all of us understand, okay, how do we make digital spaces accessible? Um, and so that exists and many entities, especially anyone out there who works for a university, you've probably heard, okay, well, our university says they're accessible for WCAG AA.

Um, so there's different levels within it. Um, so it's, it's used as a tool, um, to help people understand here's how we make digital spaces accessible. Um, and there's a whole bunch of other legislation that, that, We could certainly talk about or think about or that's coming down and thinking about these, these phsy...

Uh these digital spaces, but um it's very interesting for that reason, because you're right that it is about awareness that some people are aware over here on this side, because it's. There's laws, or it's been around a little bit longer, um, but the digital space is still a very interesting one, uh, to be, to be working in for accessibility, for sure. And, and I think that the, um, I think that the, um, the idea that, Uh, more and more services will be accessible.

Um, it is a good thing you talked about some of the big tech companies who are participating. And by the way, I don't mean to, you know, Of course, yeah. keep up on them for not, um, for, for not, you know, if they have things that are, you know, that still need to, you know, improvements or whatnot. I'm just thinking more of the, you know, and it's not about a big tech company.

It's about also, you know, Someone in a garage building the next, you know, really cool, you know, photo sharing app, you know, photo sharing app is actually, in fact, one of those things that's it's photo sharing app. How do I immediately think about photo sharing also being an accessible version of photo sharing from the get go? So if, if, if that's part of your own requirements, part of your own, you know, goals, then you might take the product in a completely different direction. Right.

Absolutely. Um, and, and, and by the way, just it's, it's also happens to be good business because like you said, you know, maybe it's not one in four that you know, cannot access a photo, but there is some significant percentage still and laws of large numbers when, you know, a small percentage of a very large number is still a very, very large number. Um, right. And, and, and that's not something to ignore. Now, I do think that, um, and I, I, I don't know the history of this.

I probably should because I was trained as an architect, um, for the, you know, sort of physical accessibility, you know, sort of history. Um, I see now that, um, All, if I'm correct, all at least federally funded websites and maybe even state funded websites usually are, are required to be accessible. Is that correct? Either they're required, or they are already being accessible.

So this is an interesting question because if you so a lot of that comes through actually through the ADA, because of the way that it's written. It talks about public spaces needing to be accessible, and in rulings, and I'll talk about a good resource to check out more in one second, but in a lot of these rulings and. Uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Lawsuits, I guess. Um, the argument is the Internet is a public space because everybody has access to it.

I mean, of course, there's the question around actually having access in terms of bandwidth and ability, but as an entity, anyone who has the ability to get to an internet space can get to it, right? So, so that's how, um, some of these have been, uh, litigated, I guess.

Uh, and so when you think about that, you're like, okay, well, if the ADA covers, uh, or, or talks about public spaces needing to be accessible, like, you know, federal buildings and state buildings and universities and all of these places, um, that's how, the, the conversation comes about for digital accessibility as well. Well, it is a public domain. It's a public space. It needs to be accessible.

Um, and for anyone who's like, wow, I'm really intrigued by this and I would like more information, um, a super great resource. Um, there's, uh, a good friend of Teach Access. Um, she's actually on our board as well, but Lainey Feingold. Um, and if I recall right off my brain, I think it's LFLegal dot com or dot org.

I should have it memorized and I don't, um, but Lainey is, uh, is a well known, um, civil rights lawyer, disability rights lawyer, and her website has a ton of different information about, um, different current lawsuits and past lawsuits. Um, and just information about the legal aspect of it. So, um, for anyone out there who is really interested, her, her site is very approachable, very accessible, um, highly recommend taking a look, um, at that.

We'll make sure to put that into, into the show notes. Now, um, Kate, I, I do think maybe this is anecdotal, but, um, my personal experience interacting with.

You know, like, you know, federal, you know, websites and state websites, you know, basically, in other words, things like the DMV, where if you want to look for information about, you know, pretty much anything and, you know, in this sort of, uh, uh, in a, from a federal basis, especially, um, Most websites now are actually very accessible and quite, quite, uh, it's quite an amazing improvement from, from years ago.

Um, in fact, I, I have found that through COVID when perhaps that's one of the, one of the things that sort of instigated this during that time, we all need resources from our, our government, you know, in every dimension possible, whether it be for transportation to sanitation, to the CDC and, you know, all of that, right? So I feel like that everything got an upgrade in terms of accessibility. Um, and I, and, and, and I mentioned this also to observe that not only are they more accessible.

But the websites generally are just better. They really are just, I feel like, you know, if we were to do a study, it would be objectively better. Just number of clicks to get to spaces, you know, being able to navigate, you know, clearly from one place, because those are actually some accessibility, um, guidelines as well. It's not always just about, you know, like, that's your Image have an alt text.

Right. Um, and so it's, I think it's actually, it's, it's like accessibility lift all boats, you know, we all get to enjoy a better, um, better designed websites and resources. Absolutely. And that's something, you know, it's important to me that when we're talking about accessibility, we really make sure we continue to center, um, disability as, you know, as a core part of why accessibility, uh, is a thing, right?

Because we're creating products that aren't accessible and that's affecting the disability community, um, and impacting their ability to work with, uh, with those products, with those services, whatever they might be. That said, there is a lot around, and there's a lot of people who will talk about, and, and I have certainly been one of them, that accessibility is good for everybody.

Um, and so I always like to make sure we don't lose track of the fact that it, you know, I don't want to, you know, sort of erase the fact that the disability community is really at the core of the work, but, or and, accessibility is great for everybody. And so earlier you were talking about, um, social media, and You know, I'm thinking of all of the different social media platforms right now that have captions that you can add.

You know, thinking about TikTok videos, thinking about Instagram videos, etc., and there are more.

Um, the fact that there are so many people who add them, Now, maybe some of them are adding them because they know it's helpful for, um, you know, certain disability populations, deaf, hard of hearing, hearing loss, you know, cognitive, um, other types of disabilities that benefit from having those captions, but it also benefits it perhaps language learners of whatever that language may be, um, to be able to see the text as they're, as, as you're hearing the language.

Um, it also benefits, I mean, think of you're on a bus going from your home to your work or from, you know, your dormitory to your classroom building, whatever, wherever you're going, uh, and you don't have your headphones with you and you have your phone on silent, but you're watching the video and you can keep up because there's captions there, whether or not you identify as having a disability, you're benefiting from those captions.

And so Um, there are a number of, so many more examples, of course, we can, uh, talk through, uh, or that, that I'm sure others would, would think of as well, where it's, it was specifically designed as, as access, you know, assistive technology or accessibility, however you want to call it, um, but that it benefits others. Um, and I think that's a really important piece, um, to know that when.

You know, we hear this sometimes when people are like, but I don't have any, you know, students with disabilities in my class. So why would I do this or whatever it might be? Well, first of all, you don't know that you don't. Maybe they haven't disclosed that to you. But also, It's just good, good design or it's good, um, you know, user experience to be able to include some of these things.

Um, and it, it often doesn't take too much effort to be able to add these things, um, to what you're creating and it, and it helps everybody. Yeah, I, I, I agree. I think it's, it's definitely one of those things is things that, um, you know, I, I like to think of it almost like cooking, you know, like it, it's like the special spice that it's so easy to have. And then when you use it, you know, it's, it's food just tastes better. In general, why are we doing it?

And so I think it's more like how can people get, and it's not expensive, you know, so it's, it's, it's a, it's a, um, it's something to, you know, to be aware of, because I really believe that it's not like, does it add an additional cost to product development as a product developer, I would say. Yes, but there is a big but here, but it keeps us more disciplined in how we design our product. So we got a better product that comes out of it.

It's almost like it did some free work for us to get our product better. And so I don't know, like, maybe you can look at a line item and say, well, we needed, you know, something took longer or whatever, you know, like I had to hire additional headcounts to, to make this work, but I think that the product was better at the end. I don't know whether I can really sort of like justify like exactly how, how much, how many percent better is it worth that exact dollar amount.

But I would argue at least for me right now, I wouldn't be able to go back to not considering it because overall it creates, there's a lot of other things too, like for me, it literally go into even recruiting, I wouldn't, if I hire... So two things, right? If I hire someone today who doesn't care about it, I probably wouldn't want to hire them. But if I hire someone today who cares about them and they see that we don't care about it, they wouldn't want to come work for us.

So it's kind of like, uh, it's, uh, it exists in, in. It permeates itself into every layer of everything that we do. Um, so I can't imagine it being like, it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's not only a great thing and it helps us in so many ways, it's basically win, win, win, win, win at every layer that we go to. Right.

And like from the cost standpoint, and I was trying to think as you were talking, if there are specific examples I can come up with or resources, they might, they might occur to me in a minute. Um, but in terms of the cost, sure. Maybe there's a small cost or like you said, maybe a harder to define cost if it's about the, the, um, team that you need to assemble or specific, whatever it might be, um, a little extra time to be able to make it accessible.

Okay. But what we know is that what's actually the most costly is if you don't do that from the beginning, and then you have something that you're ready to ship software code, whatever it might be an actual product, and you haven't made it accessible.

Um, And you realize either right before, that's what's costly because now you're like, okay, do we ship it anyway, knowing it's not accessible, which damages your brand and means your user, like you can't reach all of the users you possibly can, um, because they can't access it. They can't use the tool or, or whatever it is we're talking about. Um, or you say, okay, pause, we aren't going to be able to. put out this release or whatever it might be, uh, because we need to make it accessible.

Now that's costing you money because now you're, you know, it's delaying, yeah, all of the things that, that go into that. And so, um, that's where I was saying, I was trying to think of a specific example or resource I could point you to, but there is a lot out there that talks about how The cost of accessibility is actually when you don't make something accessible and then have all of that associated, um, stuff and activity around it versus, okay, let's build it from the beginning.

Crucially, let's make sure that we're including people with disabilities through the entire process so that it's not just, also a thing at the end, it's from the beginning, all the way through, you know, ideation, testing, prototyping, all of those things, depending on how you're creating products, but, um, that's, that's really where the cost comes in, um, is not doing it.

So, and, and by the way, some of these sort of harder to to measured cost is some of them are, you just can't, you know, you, you can't even fathom, you know, things like, because if it affects, for example, the retention of your own employees, that's right. What, what's that cost. That's an incredible cost. You know, if your employee leaves you because they go, I don't want to work for an organization where we don't care about this.

And when, uh, users ask us about it, our, you know, decision maker just simply said that's not going to be part of, you know, what we do, right? I can't live with it. Right? Like you said, everyone, even if they are not themselves, have any, identify with any disabilities, they know someone who is, someone close to them is their best friend, their family member. That's right. Right?

And their family members may not be today, but they may be You know, as they age and, you know, and so on, they, you know, so it's, it affects all of us and themselves too, right? Absolutely. For someone to like, you know, to, to not have that. I mean, the, the, the cost is unmeasurable in my mind, you know, the lot is unmeasurable. Um, so I, I don't, I hope that people who, who might listen to this will, will, will agree that it's, it's not even a choice.

It's not a, well, maybe one day we'll, we'll get to it. Um, right. It's, it's just something that, you know, to me, it goes into, you know, it, it becomes a, uh, you know, like before everyone's aware, it's fine because we just didn't know what we didn't know. Now that we, we, I think when you starting to get to a point, especially with your help, you know, spreading the word to, to everyone, it's going to get to a point where it's not acceptable. I think that's a world we want to live in.

Yes. It's not acceptable. You know, correct.

Here is a preview of what's coming up next in Part 2 of my conversation with Kate Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access. I mean, as students are putting their work out there, um, being able to demonstrate, hey, I know what accessibility is, generally speaking, and I've done a couple things to my portfolio to make it more accessible. That indicates a lot.

You know, they're thinking about inclusivity, they're thinking about the different ways they're presenting their materials, um, and their artifacts, uh, and their work to the world.