Episode 9 - Playing Palma Sutra Chicken

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Visit lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe that? arkansas no okay so we are at episode nine so Kid wise, this makes it the Joyanna episode. So that means we're about halfway through the kids as far as episode goes. So it'll be weird when we're actually done with the children and then keep going. But one thing I've realized is that the episodes are getting longer and I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

But it comes from, I feel like, number one, these episodes are giving us so much more content and material to talk about, right? Yeah. Also, that now we have a lot more things to connect back to. As we are talking about things and making connections and being able to kind of dive into things even more. And then also the fact that there are a lot of like current things happening that I feel like we just like kind of have to talk about because they're happening right now.

So they're getting a little bit longer. Don't know if that's good or bad. But on that note, I do have to start with some current news. And that is that... So this last episode that we did, of course, was the engagement episode slash Anna's 20th birthday. So that was back in June 23rd of 2008. So it's actually kind of funny that we posted this episode on June 22nd.

And I hadn't really stopped to think about it at the time. Okay. But it's just kind of funny that our timelines kind of are like funny where they add up with, you know, they align with things that are happening. Right. So then the very next day after we posted that episode, Anna posted in her Instagram stories.

For the first time ever since she posted that whole like there's more to the story thing that connected to the court documents about like the whole Caleb thing and like, you know, how they're trying to like bring him into the mix. So this was her first post since then. Okay. And she wrote in her stories, officially 34, 14 years since I said yes. And then she put road tripping, road tripping to visit my bestie. Even if by mercy, by mercy me on repeat, Jesus, I will cling to you come what may.

so everybody's taking that as road tripping to go visit Josh in prison or you know he was being at he was at count like in the jail at that time okay so everybody takes it as him being you know, her going for their, like, anniversary of engagement slash her birthday, going to visit her bestie. People were calling it her pesty bestie, and I love that. Oh, that's pretty good. So, basically, if anyone had hope that sentencing...

Might have like shaken her and maybe made her come to her senses a little bit. Sure don't sound like it. That's a big old nope. Nope. So there goes that idea. She's completely still in it. And then the very next day on the 24th, early in the morning, pest was transferred and we actually got to catch like a little glimpse of the video. Yeah.

Yeah. And we still don't actually know exactly where he was transferred to. It's only been revealed that he was transferred. Okay. But we're not sure which of the two facilities it is at this point. But man. josh was looking hefty yep he was i mean hefty like if he'd gotten the way he was filling out that suit yeah he got any bigger they would have had to get like a hefty force flex bag instead of his suit because

He looks entirely different. Yeah. And being a larger man, I understand. When I'm gaining weight, I feel like people can see it in... in like my shoulders, as weird as that sounds. And when I've lost weight, I've had people tell me, oh, are you losing weight? Yeah. Oh, I can tell from behind.

Well, the funny part is he's bigger everywhere. Yeah. Like his head. I'm not even just saying his face got big. Like his whole head is big. He's like wide. And he's wearing the suit that he was wearing on that last day that he got convicted. So I was. pictures of what he looked like i mean the suit fits entirely differently and what's even more interesting to me is that at the sentencing people like reporters specifically said that he looked like he had lost more hair right

No mention of him being like fucking hefty, right? And even the like sketches that people did, they sketched him looking pretty much size wise as he had at Conviction, right? Correct. So I'm thinking like he looks like he put on like 30 pounds in 30 days. Oh, yeah. Because sentencing was May 25th.

And this was June 24th. So I'm like, he put on like a fucking pound a day. I swear to God. I mean, and I don't have much to say about gaining weight. I'm hefty myself at this point. But damn, he put on like 30 pounds, it looks like. Just thought that was something to report on, of course. Well, I mean, he wasn't sweeping goldfish or building decks. He's not sweeping the goldfish. He's eating all the goldfish. He just looks like he's hitting commissary hard.

Yeah. Eating the feels. Yeah. I think that they are like, he's probably got multiple, but you know, it's probably like the love offerings from all of their church people. He's probably got that commissary bank. Oh yeah. I didn't even think about that. Cause I could see people outside of the family. like oh this poor persecuted christian man oh yeah here you go but i know speculation of course all right so now we can actually get into the actual episode

And the name of this one is Duggar Dating Rules. So it starts with a short recap of the whole engagement episode before. And one thing that I did notice going back through. that I didn't, I noticed it last episode, but I didn't mention it, but I crack up. Did you notice at the exact moment that he kneels down to propose that like a guy goes behind, goes like right behind him? With Dolly. He looks like the beer keg guy. Yep.

What a romantic moment. We got the beer kid going past us. Yeah, I wrote that in here where I'm like, why would a delivery man be going through the dining room? Go to the back dock, buddy. It's all so confusing, but you know, this was a special place. Real special. They do all their delivery. through the dining room so i just wanted to throw that in there um so then they are back at home the family is watching the footage of the proposal they're like huddled around

like the older girls, are huddled around a computer with Michelle and Boob, and they're watching it. And then Jim Bob talks about how he's gotten lots of emails from guys asking about the girls. Yep.

and jessa says well most are weirdos so again you're not wrong remember we got jill out there who was saying like um unique or whatever her wording was and then jess is always like everybody's a weirdo and michelle thinks it's hilarious like did you notice the way she's like punching jessa in the arm and like she thinks it's so funny like she's like punching her like oh my goodness like she thinks it's so funny oh my god and

This is actually when we meet Cousin Amy for the first time. Commonly referred to in the SNARK community as Femi. Because she is very attention-seeking. Okay. She seems like it. She is. And it's funny because... I can't remember which AMA at this point, but somebody was saying, oh, I cannot fucking stand her. Like somebody was just like, she's annoying. She is exactly what she seems as like super attention seeking. And the thing about Amy is here and there, she says stuff that are true.

you know she's been vocal about josh and all this and so she'll say stuff but it always comes from this like you're doing it for attention not always for the right reasons right like you're allowed to speak out here and there but she speaks out all the fucking time like yeah and

it's just funny because in my head i was thinking she came into the show way further down the road so i was like oh shit it's only like the couple episodes in so just just interesting we'll definitely see a lot more of her and get more in depth on amy later on yeah she had that like child actor energy where she's doing things so people notice her like even there i'm like damn well go figure she wants to be a country singer so you'll see going forward but

It's kind of embarrassing looking back because I remember watching this when I was like 14 and thinking like, oh, I could be friends with Amy. That's like a yeesh now. There was a couple moments where they would have her... answering questions but they had like lego hair around her and you could I felt like he was annoyed that she was taking the spotlight at that point. I think that he just knows. Yeah, I agree. And I also think that he's very aware of the fact.

Of course, I don't know exactly how her bringing her to the picture went down entirely. But I feel like it was probably less of the family and more of like production's idea of like, let's bring in a normal person to show this. No, I'm saying quote unquote normal because she's not in there. full fundy like them well it's to show the comparisons right so she's she's not part of their religion she she she's not part of their cults i'll say

Okay. She's religious, but not part of their cult. Because what I realized, and I even wrote it on here, they never showed her from the waist down. So I was like, is she wearing jeans? She's wearing jeans, yes. And there was...

If she was in the background of a scene, they like... purposefully put two of the little kids in front of her so you couldn't see what she was wearing oh i didn't notice that definitely going forward they don't do that anymore because there's no hiding it yeah but i just thought it felt very forced of them to kind of like in uh

in what was it home improvement where his neighbor always had something covering his face wilson yeah like that's how it felt where they were like well we're just we're just bringing this two by four through so you don't see this yeah So she definitely, I definitely think she was fodder. I think she enjoys being, getting the attention, but I think it was, you know, purposeful by production to point out kind of these differences. And Josiah says in a talking head that.

amy isn't the same as us but but we still like her yeah but we still like her i was i was curious as to like how far that went yeah so then after you know amy shows up josh and anna

you know are arriving back at the house from the road trip from florida and you know she walks in the house and there's a whole lot of side hugging going on but i did notice that michelle did give her a full frontal hug Oh my. Michelle went full frontal? She went full frontal on her. And production asks for the story of how they met. And Josh says that it was love at first sight. Of course. Flipping pages here. Give me a second.

So, of course, they met at a homeschool conference back in 2006. And this is, you know, summer of 2008. So they met at a homeschool conference in 2006, and he said that he'd met many others, but when he met Anna, he knew she was the one. Oh. Oh, Anna. said that his family didn't their families like didn't really know each other but after like a few months later the Kellers were like passing through for something else and that they ended up staying with the Duggars at their house. Correct.

He says that after the Kellers left, he went to his parents and he told like his parents that like, oh, I think Anna like is the one or, you know, whatever. Must have been all the gasping. Right. Yep.

So then it says they're like sitting as a group as the whole family. And they're all just like talking and like huddled around. And then. And Michelle starts talking about how, Anna, you made this commitment to the Lord that you wouldn't court. And then Jim Bob chimes in. He goes, or get engaged. And until you were 20 and your daddy said he really wanted you to keep that commitment. So then she says, Josh and your daddy figured out this all to surprise you.

Would you have ever imagined that on your 20th birthday, then like meanwhile, during all of this, they're like hand fucking like crazy on the couch. In front of their family. In front of everybody. In front of everyone. and so after this the family starts like it's like the talking heads again and your michelle voice is very good by the way i just want to let you know i feel like you've probably been working on it like in the mirror you're like work workshop

So then in these talking heads are saying like, you know, oh, she's so sweet. And then Amy says, I think they'll start having kids as soon as possible. I mean, because you could tell on the couch. So Amy does add in these little moments.

moments of like oh yeah like she totally noticed they're like hand fucking yeah and then it's weird because they're like sitting really kind of far apart from each other but still holding hands so like at different points like anna's arms are completely straight out in front of her yeah and they're double fisting

They're like, they're like double hand holding and her arms are outstretched. And I even was thinking to myself, like, oh, my God, there's so much space between them. You could fit like another person. And then later on, Jim Bob was like.

Oh, James. I don't remember which one. He's like, why don't you just go sit between them? And I'm like, there's room. Yeah, exactly. There really is room. I was like, I don't know why you think he needs to go sit there. There's plenty of room. So then Josh says. That he had just read in the newspaper that 90% of couples have premarital sex and that that's staggering. That's staggering. Not the fact that you molest people.

But people having premarital sex, that's staggering. Right. So Jim, Bob and Michelle say that, you know, they can't kiss until their wedding day. But then they have this weird part. They're like, we'll do the kissing. and there's a point where it's kind of hard exactly what they say because like it kind of like goes in and out a little bit but it basically kind of sounds like they're saying when you want to kiss just let us know and we'll kiss okay like

And then they kiss each other. I feel like normal human beings don't say things like that. But it's what's interesting is that this is a total pattern of behavior. So now to actually see the first time that it happens is interesting because now I'm like, oh, shit, this was the first time because they totally have this weird thing that they do that they think it's really.

funny to like rub into the kids faces like you can't do this they do it all the time you'll see what's like courtships and stuff going forward like well i can kiss her and there's a oh just you wait way down the road there's a there's a moment on a mini golf course That you will never forget. Oh, God. So this is a major teaser for way down the road. But this is definitely the birthplace of this behavior that I'm noticing for the first time.

just love to rub it in their faces you can't do this but we can which we we've talked in the past about how oh you got to do all this stuff and then now your kids don't get to do any of it so yep weird I feel like it's like an odd power play. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? It's so fucking odd. Well, you may take care of my children, but I still have power over you. Yep.

So then Jill talks again about how dating doesn't save your whole self for the one that God has for you because you're giving away pieces of yourself. Same kind of stuff they talked about last time. Yeah. God forbid you cannot be a whole person if you like somebody else besides the person you marry. Right. And then she goes on to say that these are not just rules that were put on them that they actually want.

this and that they don't want to kiss before their wedding day and then josh goes into this whole thing about how when a parent says and quote you will not go that way the child rebels and goes that way anyway So my parents are very wise about knowing how to restrict their children from certain activities. Do they? But also knowing when you just have to let a child make their own choices.

One of the things I realized from these, like there's like three or four talking heads to this episode where they're asking the kids about the idea of abstaining from everything before you get married. One of the things I realized was you can tell when the kids kick into or kick out of I'm saying kind of my own beliefs or, you know, the words that are coming up with in the moment. But then they're.

When they're like, you know, how do you feel about not kissing to your wedding? And then you can kind of see their eyes glaze over and it turns into, okay, now I need to puppet what I've been told my entire life. I need to recite. Where's my script? Recite. Perfect. But they all do say the same fucking things over and over. And like I said, you almost see their eyes glaze over because they're like, OK, cool. I know how to do this. They're accessing the file in their brain. Yeah. Yeah. So I.

I felt like I noticed it really starkly in this episode. You're like, oh, okay, I can zone out for a minute because I just need a puppet. Yep.

So after Josh is off, after those couple of talking heads, it takes us back to the Pamasutra moments on the couch, surrounded by family. And Josh says, so yeah, Anna and I are planning to spend the night together.

and that i mean it erupts in laughter man he is the girls like jill even hides her face did you see how like she starts to laugh and she actually puts her face like behind um susanna yeah like it's like that oh like embarrassing like this is so funny like hide my face thing josh was throwing fucking zingers he thought he thought that was hilarious they all thought that was hilarious anna's like dying and they're like no no no and he's like that's not let me clarify

It's like so eye rolling. He's working that room, man. I was just rolling my eyes. I'm like, good God. And then I love this part because Amy says to Jim Bob.

that she wouldn't be a good chaperone and that I'm pretty sure you know she's like I wouldn't be a good good for this and that I'm pretty sure that they kissed before they were married oh yeah she called him out and michelle and it's funny because jim bob doesn't answer he just stands there and like laughs awkwardly yep so then it quickly cuts to a talking head of michelle and she goes yes we did like like that and everything yeah like yes we did yep and then

jim bob says like in his talking head that they made some mistakes in the dating process that they did save themselves for their wedding night but they did go further than they should have so it's like Is kissing the only thing you guys did? Or, like, did you, like, touch a boob? Right. Like, I'm curious. Was there, like, upstairs outsideies, you know? Right. Little brush over the clothes, you know?

You know, they're always downplaying over the clothes. Like, they always said that with Josh. It was like, well, it was over the clothes. So, Jim Bob, I mean, it was over the clothes. Slut. No big whoop. That slutty Lego hair. I... This is kind of what I was alluding to with cousin Amy. There was multiple times she kind of called Jim Bob on his shit. And like you said, he had no response. He sat there awkwardly.

and he was so uncomfortable to a couple things where there was two instances where he like leaned because the They're right there by the kitchen. And some of the lost boys were getting a snack. And he would lean away from Amy. on camera and pretend like he was like helping the kids with something it's like you asshole you're not doing that you're just you're trying to fidget yeah he's like i'm walking away from this

So after Jim Bob says it, then Michelle says that she wishes she could say that they hadn't, but that they did. And that she thinks it's precious that our children are wanting to save that first kiss for their wedding day.

And I can't stand it because I feel like by saying it that way, she's framing it almost as if it's not something that... Like the kids came up with this idea on their own. Right. As if it's not something... that they have taught them and just like oh it's so cute it's so precious that they want to do this like they did not it's

and all the kids being like oh no we want it this way correct but so this idea that it's all up to them and that they all would have done this anyway it's just so precious it irks the shit out of me um

yeah so it just kind of goes back it speaks to the whole thing that jill was saying like oh we want this right so then the next scene they're literally drawing names out of a hat to figure out who is going to be their chaperone and joyanna she's too young so they let her you know like pull the name yep and it ends up being ginger and did you see how excited she was oh yeah Officer not on my watch. She's like, yes! It's like the, yes!

And they're all, like, hugging her and congratulating her. Let's be real. She's probably just excited to get out of the house. Oh, no, that's what it is entirely. It's like, shit, I get to go do something away from the rest of these million fucking people for once. So, yeah, she is pumped. Yep. And then so they end up going over to see the house that Josh and Anna are going to end up living in after they get married.

And it's a house that's been in the family for years and you will see it for years to come. Oh my.

They rented it to their grandparents, right? Well, no. Grandma Duggar owned it and rented it out. Oh, okay. So Jim Bob's mom, that was one of her properties. And I'm not sure at what point Jim Bob took it over, if it was still technically... grandma's at this point but it's just this house that's been the family it's this little house and they're gonna like work on it and stuff and yeah anyways it's just where they're gonna be living and then he ends up taking anna to his car lot is this

the car this is not the car lot because actually this is his first one he ends up having a second one the second one is where the raid happened okay this current one you're seeing one of the other brother ends up taking over

Okay. Because that was the first thought that went through my head was, is this the Carla? No, that's not the one. And then I was like hyper paying attention to details that don't matter anymore. Now I'm going to be watching. I'm like, when does it switch over? Like, you know, it'll be those things that you pay attention to now. So then Ma and Pa Keller and like some of the younger siblings of Anna end up showing up.

And Pog is saying how Anna just loves children and it's their decision that they want to have all the children that God will give them. Ma is just nodding and smiling the whole time. Again, we don't hear her talk again. she never talks no and it's just kind of like a like a sure jan like again with this whole like oh it's all their idea right it's not been totally indoctrined into them that this is what you do you could let

God, decide how many children you're going to have. I get this whole idea that, oh, it's so cute. They just get this on their own. I had a thought.

during this because you know last time our deep dive kind of went into the keller family and you talked about how like they're not really like rich by any means and then obviously pa keller took a non-profit job and yeah um so obviously they're not as well to do as the Duggar family and I I this is me inferring totally but I'm like I feel like Lego hair and Michelle probably eat up the fact that

like these people who have less means are like coming over and they're so uh appreciative and congratulatory they're always like oh yeah we look up to them like they're probably eating up yeah because you know they think of themselves whether they would ever say it or not it's like funny royalty you know yeah so it's like we're oh we're doing you a service by having our son get engaged to your daughter you know what i mean so

So then after all of the whole like car lot house business, Ginger actually gets pulled off of chaperone duties because they have to switch it over to John, David and Jana. And they're going to see a movie. Yes. So they're going to a pre-screening of a movie. So you have to be 18. So the thing about that is, is like they would never go see something R-rated ever, ever, ever. But it's because it's a pre-screening. So they haven't, it hasn't been rated yet. So you have to be 18 at that point.

Do you know what movie it was? No, I should have looked that up. As soon as I sat down, I was like, shit, I don't, I'm not sure. Yeah, because even when they, you could tell they were like, don't say anything, copyright stuff, because then Josh is talking at, he was like, yeah, we went to a, or we went to a showing of. a movie yeah and so this is the moment that the whole um

Well, we are from Arkansas. From our fantastic introduction. Tim made the introduction, so that's why. Good job. That's why it's fantastic. That's why it's fantastic. So, because he's like, well, you know, we had to bring John, David, and Jana. Why not have a double date? We are from Arkansas.

god it's cringy and they're in a convertible like josh thinks it's cool shit because off of his car lot he picks out a convertible for them it's a camaro it's like that 90s era camaro for them to go on this date and so you know like they think they're cool as shit God, we went on a double date with my brother and sister. And I just wanted to point out.

that i'm not josh doesn't look good by any means right but he just kind of looks typical like conservative did you pay attention to john david he was awkward oh my but his outfit he looks like a fucking dad from 1994. The orange polo with horizontal stripes. Orange polo. Matching orange hat. But the hat that's like...

Like almost looks like it has a buckle on the back. Yeah. And then like the bad 90s jeans and then like the Seinfeld tennis. You know what I mean? Like those white like. Yeah. Poor John David. He's looking rough. So as this, you know, double date, they go out to eat at a boilos. And it's funny because Josh ends up saying that he can't really eat. Because for one thing, I'm holding hands with Anna the whole time.

and it is fucking ridiculous to watch it is it is rough it's like will you let that bitch eat both of them though but like she's just as fucking thirsty like i kept i kept thinking about it where i'm like um i need to go to the bathroom I'm going to need you to let go of my hands while I go to the bathroom. There's no stops for the bathroom. You don't drink water. You're very dehydrated at the end of the date. But it's like watching them try to flip through the menu.

And like eat chips and salsa while still death gripping each other's hands. It's ridiculous. It's rough. Oh my God. And it's funny because like the waiter is setting their. food down and still it's like nothing but yeah nothing will break their grip like i feel like at that moment someone coming around and like setting something down in front of me at the very least maybe that moment i would give it up but they fucking won't give it up for nothing

Nothing can break their bonds. Ew. And it's really funny because at one point, I went back and I watched it a couple of times. At one point, it is really clear to me that Anna is right-handed. Okay. And Josh is on her right side. So you'd think it would be easy that she would just like hold... his hand with her right hand but she's right-handed and apparently she can't navigate a chip to her mouth with her left hand so instead of using you know she's using her left hand like her left hand to eat

And she's literally crisscrossing over herself to try to eat and still hold his hand. Like, I don't know if I'm describing this in a way that people can. Yeah. Yeah. So she's holding it. His hand with her left hand. She's holding his hand with his left hand so she can use her right hand to eat. And so like she's scooping chips and using her over her own arm. It's like fucking let go of his hand already.

God, they're going to be starving, dehydrated. Do you think it was like playing chicken where they're like, whoever lets go first isn't as committed to this marriage? Maybe.

god they just will not let go of each other's hands palma suture chicken um and then there's a funny scene where they pray before they eat and of course They make it seem like everyone in the restaurant is staring at them. Right. Obviously, that could just be editing. Of course. Because at any given point.

people can stare at them and they're taking or just people looking around and they're taking footage of that either way the intention of it was to make it look like everybody was staring at them while they're praying and i just thought it was really funny because even

So while they're showing all these clips of people with their head turned and like watching and like kind of laughing, they even zoomed in on that painting on the wall. Yeah. Of like a woman to make it. It was just a funny moment of editing, like where you can tell they're like the.

TLC is like being like snarkers and they're like even the painting staring at everybody's looking yeah but yeah and they just talk about how like John David I can't I didn't write down his exact quote but John David says something about how like he thinks that praying has like been long

before you eat like been lost before yeah or whatever and then josh has his bullshit to say about like people don't want to be held to a higher power or something i don't remember but it was just stupid and then that's kind of the end of the episode Just a whole lot of hand fucking again. A whole lot of Pamasutra. In different places. Yeah. But yeah, that was kind of it. Do you have anything else you want to add on it?

I don't think so. I think this early before you know kind of how she is, I think Amy's kind of a refreshing voice in this just because she made Lego hair uncomfortable. And that's definitely the role she plays in all of it. Yeah. But looking at it, you can tell that, okay, you're going to try to grab onto their coattails while not being a part of it. And it's convenient when she likes to act like she is a part of it and then conveniently not a part of it. Yeah. So it'll be really watching.

be really interesting to like watch that all unfold and see how deep she gets into it and then later reference how much she's trying to separate herself and i'm not saying you wouldn't want to separate yourself from all the shit that's happening with josh of course you would But just the family in general. Well, yeah, she's very separated from the family now anyway. But it's like he didn't have a problem with it before. I don't know. It's just funny. So we'll watch that unfold as time goes on.

Yeah, so we'll just take a little break and then we'll get into the deep dive. Okay, so today's deep dive is going to be about courtship. Okay. Because, you know, pretty much everything that they've told us is a very watered down version, right? Okay. So in the episode... I don't know if you have any other takeaways, but all I keep hearing is that it's, you know, to save yourself for the one from God and that God has intended for you and not giving away your pieces of your heart.

Not really a whole lot else really explained about it. Okay. So I just wanted to actually reference actual documents from like their cult. So just know that everything I'm reading is not like I'm not taking liberties. This is directly off of some of their handouts at seminars and things off of their website directly. So this is.

straight from the cult's mouth like there is no like beating around it okay so first i'm going to start off with really just giving some basic definitions of things and then we'll dive deeper into it okay

So this is the title at the top is The Wisdom and Freedom of Courtship Versus Dating. Oh, okay. You're already trying to like PR spin it like it's a good thing. So much freedom, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So it says many young people are relieved to learn that there is an alternative to the pressure and hurts that result from dating. The concept of courtship involves applying biblical principles to this area of life.

thus allowing young people to have their greater effectiveness in their single years and a more fulfilling relationship with their partner in marriage. Okay. So they start off with definitions. Their definition of dating is... Singling out one person of the opposite gender and cultivating interest through thoughts, looks, notes, talks, or events. Interesting definition. Yeah.

And then it says why dating causes conflicts. The motive is wrong. It's getting versus giving. The goal is wrong. It's pleasure versus commitment. The idea is wrong. It's human nature versus limitations. Because, you know, human nature is so bad. Yeah. And the results are wrong. It's Hertz versus edification. And I looked up edification just to make sure it was what I thought it was. It wasn't. It actually means improvement of a person through like education morally or something like whatever.

Okay, and this next one. Oh, God. Ready for this one? God. Definition of courtship. Two fathers agreeing to work with a qualified young man to win the daughter for marriage. That is fucking disgusting. Like, let's get two dads together and we're going to win her over. Or it's arranging. Yeah. So then it says definition of engagement. A daughter agreeing to accept the proposed love and protection of a young man in marriage. Okay.

it's so like art it feels just very archaic it's yeah and i feel that way whenever anyone talks about like arranged marriages but there's something about hearing it written down To be like, well, the two fathers need to meet. And then they have to. Like, there's something about quantifying it that literally that is weird to me. Yeah. You know. So weird. I know there's certain.

cultures on the planet that still do arrange marriages or but I feel like you have like I think of India like India and Pakistan like they do arranged marriages and you see a lot of younger people in those cultures that are like very harshly turning away from that being like it doesn't have to be that way anymore you know and the funny thing is they'll argue that this isn't that but you're you're putting the power

into all the men involved and the woman is coming in last so the next topic um is the rewards of courtship okay says it gives new freedom and friendships it avoids envy and jealousy And it allows for dedication to please the Lord. And then they give scripture that I'm not going to get into, but they give one, like two different scriptures. And then they say, where does.

Whom do you please when you are dating? Because they're saying that like in this one scripture, you're pleasing the Lord and, you know, and your wife. And then for the on the wife sense, you're pleasing the Lord and your husband. They're like, there's no mention of dating. Yeah, because the Bible is like has the word dating. in it yeah exactly where's dating in the bible well there's no twitter in the bible either so um

It says that so we're still on rewards of courtship. It promotes self-control and moral purity, which is a fucking joke because we know that's not true. Yeah. Josh Duggar certainly didn't practice self-control or was. Pure. So that's funny. It says it provides for objective evaluation. It eliminates defrauding and bitterness. It bases marriage on God's will.

And then it says parentheses dating conclusions change. Okay. And then the last one is honors the father's authority. And then it ends with this little mantra, basically. And it says, Heavenly Father, I know that you are far more concerned about my future marriage than I am. And I thank you that you love me and will clearly direct me to the life partner you designed for me.

I also recognize that you have goals that you desire for me to accomplish while I am single. So I do now accept your purpose for my singleness. I purpose to see how I can please you. And I trust you to work through my authorities to confirm your direction for me regarding marriage. I don't know why, but the term singleness made me laugh. Like it just. It's weird. It is. So the next part is the requirements of courtship. It is that it's a life purpose bigger than marriage.

It is a one man, one woman commitment. Color me fucking surprised. A restraint of affection. A loyalty to parents. And an ability to deal with infatuations. And then it has this little diagram that shows a little person. And it says infatuation at the bottom in its circles. And then there's an arrow pointing upwards to a thing that says God. And then along that arrow, going from infatuation to God, at the bottom it says, number one, thank you for desires. Number two, you know my needs.

Number three, I'll be waiting for your timing. So that's how they say that that's giving you the ability to deal with infatuations because you're saying, thank you for desires, God. It's so fucking weird. You know my needs. I'll wait for your timing, though. And still under requirements is a readiness for marriage responsibilities. And then it ends with giving you like a little like, hey, if someone's trying to set you up.

Here's a little thing you can tell them. This is the say no to drugs part of this. Here's your script. So it's thank you for your interest in my welfare. Right now I'm learning to be content as a single person. If I'm not content as a single person, I'll not be fulfilled in marriage. I really hope that at some point... somebody in this cult like actually said those things right like i feel at some point somebody was like hey i think my friend kind of likes you and then they uh pardon me line one

Thank you for your interest in my welfare. Yeah, thank you for your interest. It sounds like you're getting on a ride at Disneyland. Yeah, right? Oh, man, they're a single rider at Disneyland. Please, hey, yo.

All right. So now that we've gone over some basic definitions, we're going to just get a little bit more into it. OK. So the first thing is courtship is the first step towards marriage. It specifically says do not enter into courtship until you are at a stage in life when marriage is a realistic possibility. Okay. Which I find really fucking funny because number one, actually.

myself and i'm sure everybody else we were all very much under the impression right that this whole josh anna thing was like josh's first courtship correct we only find out later that he had this thing with kaylee

way before but of course they don't want to talk about that because a failed courtship number one doesn't look good but number two the reason for the failure of the courtship would have outed them correct potentially so they just chose not to talk about it yes so i just find it really funny that

This says. Real quick. Was Kaylee the one from the first special? Yes. That was the one where you brought up that there was another teenage girl that he was kind of talking to at the conference. And you were like, oh, that was. That was this girl. Kaylee's the one that had the book. Kaylee's Bobye's daughter.

Yeah. Yeah. But she's the one that we saw in the first special. She's the one that he... I'm not sure. He was talking to a girl, but that was the scene with the Holtz. I can only assume it was her. Okay. I don't know what she looked like at that point in time. I'm just putting...

Putting numbers together. Yeah, I know. So now you can make all these little connections and stuff. So I just find it really funny that it specifically says that you need to be in the stage where marriage is realistic. How was marriage a realistic thing at 14? Yeah, exactly. They were, they're actually, yeah, they were. We are from Arkansas. So I think that in my.

to me, that means that they were kind of going against these rules. Cause I don't find that to be realistic, but maybe they have a different, I mean, they have lots of different definitions than me. So you can cherry and they can cherry pick whatever they want. Yeah. Is four years realistic? Like, I don't know. Away.

So then they also say that until you are ready for marriage, ask God to lead you in developing friendships with godly men and women, but do not try to win the affections of those friends. Okay. So you can be like into them. Just don't shoot your shot. Well, so what's interesting. Do you remember when I told you about Justin that has the I Pray You Put This Journal Away podcast for anybody who just needs a reminder? He was friends with Josh.

During the teenage years, his family was close to them in the same sort of culty whatever. So I actually wanted to go back because this reminded me of him. This talking about like, you know, don't.

don't try to win their affections correct made me think of him so i attempted to go back and listen to parts of his podcast but unfortunately right now it says temporarily unavailable i'm not sure if he's intending to only have this be a temporary thing because of every you know all the heat that's on right now with josh or if he's kind of permanently taking down his podcast entirely up to him i respect it either way but i really like to

kind of go back and reference things and gets quotes as much as possible unfortunately not able to do that so i am just going to have to kind of talk about my takeaway and hope it was right but i remember listening because justin had a crush on janna okay and he wrote about it several times in his journal and i remember my feelings my takeaway being that like he seemed to feel a lot of guilt about it he felt guilty about

Being interested? Like he wrote things. This is why I wish I could go back and actually reference it. But like he ended up later on like writing things that was like I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm going to wait for God. Like and to me it gave a sense of guilt of like him feeling this without feeling necessarily totally directed by God. Like.

So he had those feelings, but because he hadn't prayed enough enough. Or wasn't that it wasn't, you know, timed it. Like, I feel like unless you're... being led into a full courtship like it makes it feel like you're not supposed to have feelings for opposite sex you're not supposed to win their affections like you're not supposed to you know so so it should only happen in the

If you're really considering courtship. I know that was just kind of my takeaway. I don't know how other people who listen to it, but that's just how I remember it. If I ever get to listen to it again, I will try to confirm at some other point. But I just remember thinking that he had a lot of guilt.

just like having a simple crush like you're not allowed to just have like simple human nature remember human nature was bad and what they wrote you're just not allowed to have these normal feelings and i think you and i've talked about that a lot that there's i mean I grew up Catholic. That's all based on guilt. But I feel like that's kind of a motivating factor in a lot of religious upbringings. And you brought it up in your kind of Mormon upbringing and me.

So you see a lot of that where it's like you're going to curb young people's behaviors by making them feel guilty. Yeah, you can't just have normal fucking things. Correct. And I think for me, it's not even the fact that... they're just trying to curb behavior they won't even let you talk about it nope like there's no because i feel like if they did let you talk through it you would both realize that maybe it's kind of silly or maybe it's

way more intense than it needs to be um so i feel like the curbing that ability to talk about any of those issues means there's less of a chance that you'll change your mind and i feel like i remember him kind of Being like, I need to focus on other things or like, I need to put this to rest and not focus on this because, you know, it's just so bad to have these feelings. It's just, it's really sad. So the next topic is the man initiates the courtship.

He should seek counsel, counsel from God given authorities, which in most cases ends up being parents. So he's supposed to seek the authorities first and then. God's direction to pursue courtship is confirmed through the man's authorities, his parents, through insights from God's word. So I guess that's probably like reading scripture and shit. And through prayer.

He should contact the woman's father to request permission to initiate the courtship. Only when the woman's father has given the man his blessings to enter into a courtship with his daughter is the man free to focus on winning her affections.

so again it's like you it seems like even if you like someone you're not even supposed to act like you remotely like them right because that could be considered trying to win their affections yeah guilt guilt guilt So the next thing is the talking about how the men in the courtship have these, you know, special responsibilities and how just like, you know, being the leader of the family, they're the leader in this courtship.

Because, you know, of course, women just, you know, we can't do anything ourselves. Well, yeah, we have to deal with your dating baggage. We bring so much baggage to the table. That's the cross that we bear. So it says that the man should have a dynamic walk with God prior to marriage so that he can be ready to be the spiritual leader of the family. Dynamic walk. Dynamic walk with God imagines and like.

You can't just walk. You got to like dance a little bit or. No, they don't dance. Oh, they don't dance. Not even a shimmy. No, they don't even call it dancing. So how do you have a dynamic walk with God if you can't do anything dynamic? The Ministry of Silly Walks. Yeah, right. So the next thing is, this is Rich, are you ready for this one? It is to treat all young women to whom he is not married as sisters.

With absolute purity. Probably not the best terminology for Josh. Not great, because we know exactly how Josh treated his sisters. So the fucking irony of this is not lost on any of us. Christ, I was like, oof. That is like they might. I'm like, do you want to go take this off your website? Maybe like that might be a good idea. Then it says he should demonstrate leadership, blah, blah, blah. We don't care. Not interesting. The next thing is that.

he needs to be able to determine how he'll provide for the family so that's why i feel like maybe in this episode there's a little bit of emphasis on here's my job at the car lot here's the house like her family is there so it's like this is how i'm prepared for marriage Which was funny because his brothers were throwing him under the bus. Oh, yeah, yeah. They totally were. Yeah, there was like multiple things where they were like, yeah, he hasn't really been doing much around here.

And then he tried to twist it into like a, well, I've been a little busy as he's like hand wrestling with Anna and his, yeah. The other brothers are like, no, he hasn't done much. I think even Josiah was like, he's been slacking. Yeah.

So the next thing is just that the couple's families should get to know each other, blah, blah, blah. Then the next part is accountability is a key factor. It says that the courting couple should be held accountable.

held accountable to god-given authorities for the spiritual health and progress of the relationship and that again that would normally be your parents It says, ideally, the two families will communicate with each other to establish the best way to encourage and protect the couple with a plan of accountability.

okay so i think back to the moment of like they just got engaged and josh is like well our parents said we can hold hands if you're okay with that so i'm like the fact that two families sit there and are like adult ass people they're 20 years old yep and that these adults have their parents talking with each other like are we all okay with them holding hands they're engaged is that all right like yeah wild yeah fucking wild man

Then the next one, I love this section. Oh. It's to avoid defrauding. And I don't know if you've noticed, I've been saying defrauding for several episodes. You haven't. I feel like I didn't understand it. specifically because i'm like is she using the rainbow for that but now this makes sense yeah okay so here's the definition of defrauding keep thinking about ma keller's uh gams she was showing off and you were like i was defrauded

So the definition of defrauding. To defraud another person is to stir up in them desires that cannot be righteously satisfied. God, I try to do that to you every day. righteous though you're damn right um it says that you need to choose carefully to guard against inappropriate emotional attachment and physical intimacy You can avoid much heartache, pain, particularly if the relationship does not end in marriage. That's their way of being like, no, see, there's a reason. We're doing it for you.

I'm trying to find the part where they actually talk. Hang on. Let me try to find something real quick. You can hold hands, but don't slide up to the arm. Anything past the wrist, you'll be defrauded. I'm just going to start throwing that in and hoping that it's in the right context. And then we'll judge it. Close. I found the part that I wanted to. Okay.

It says that a woman can defraud a man by the way she dresses, talks, or acts. A man can defraud a woman by improper touching or by talking about a marital commitment. Sorry. that he is not able or intending to carry out. So a couple of things here. Number one, I think it's funny that they specifically talk about how women, you know, it's the way we dress, talk and act. That's defrauding. No mention of that with the men.

Their only way of defrauding you is to like physically fucking touch you. And then that their other part of defrauding is basically like if they lead you on. Right. marital commitment that he is not able or intending to carry out now baby i love you but like you'll see going forward that there are modesty standards even for the guys

So it's really funny to me that here they don't mention like, oh, that a guy can defraud a woman by showing the gams. But right. It's just it all. It's the same. It's like the whole like rape thing. Oh, well, you were wearing a short skirt. Right. yeah so gross that they have this so embedded like it's the woman's fault like she can so easily defraud a man by just you know how is she acting how was she acting what was she wearing right gross and obviously this is like extreme um

you know spectrum of you know whether it's a religious upbringing or a really conservative upbringing which i i think you see why Some of those like blame the victim things are inherent in our society just because there was a level where like this was a version of this was like the main, you know. theory that like guided a lot of like social standards and and like legal standards um so as much as we're seeing it very very far to an extreme

this is kind of what some of those standards were based off of. If you look at like post-World War II. Yeah, exactly. So finishing up under defrauding, it says, guard your heart so that you don't ignite passions.

That should be reserved only for marriage. Like wanting to pick out China or... Yep. You don't know what it could ignite. I don't want you to get excited about picking a pattern for the wallpaper. We leave that for marriage. So the couple deepens their friendship by spending time together. And holding the shit out of each other's hands. Yeah, death grip.

It says the man and woman. This is a funny wording to me. The man and woman should spend as much time together as reasonable. Reasonable. Not as possible. Not to like get, you know. Of course. Reasonable. Yeah. Together, but not like together. Exactly. And it says that, you know, this, you know, both parties should be like opening up to each other and being honest. But it specifically notes that the topics, manner and frequency.

of the conversations should not be characterized by the desire to become acquainted with each other more deep oh i'm should be characterized by the desire to become acquainted with each other more deeply but not in a way that is defrauding So no 3 a.m. texts that say you up. Yeah, exactly. It says when taking the time to be alone, make sure that your time is spent wisely.

And that you avoid temptation to go off alone. And that spending countless hours talking often leads to premature emotional attachment. And nobody likes premature attachment. Happens to everybody. It's okay. It's okay. It only happens every once in a while. Work's been rough. You just got to think about baseball. So it talks about for.

to have private conversations that you could take a walk together or, you know, something like that. Something that offers you a dynamic walk. Yes. Yes. Um, something that offers you privacy, but not to avoid seclusion. So I actually saw in various things, like you might see them walking ahead, but there's people behind them. So it's like, oh, well, they're getting some privacy. Well, not really. Their little sister is still two steps behind them. But I just think it's really funny that they...

Say that the temptation to go off alone and spending hours talking often leads to premature emotional attachment. I'm really confused by that because don't you feel like in order to marry someone? you you would really want to be emotionally attached to them you you would assume so you would think yeah so i feel like it's like you're allowed to be like attached to each other but not too attached to each other

You can't be actually attached until you're engaged. Courtship, you can't be. So how would you get to the point of engagement without actually being emotionally attached? Yeah. Well, I feel like there's no... there's no quantification of anything so everything's left up to whatever your parents decide to say yeah you know what i mean like that's how this all feels where it's like that's not okay

Yeah, we're going to keep you from doing these things that are an extreme, but everything else is up to us, so we're going to leave the language vague. You know what I mean? Like, what's within reason? What's decided by the two fathers. What's the definition of seclusion as opposed to, you know, like, like, is there a, is there a foot? Like it needs to be like 20 feet.

Like, is that the standard that we're going off of? But whoa, whoa, whoa, don't go to 22 feet away because then that's seclusion. Yep. So the next... portion is all about how a short courtship is best it says obviously i don't want to learn too much about you you get too attached It says, obviously, as the couple's hearts are knit together through their deepening friendships, it will become more and more challenging to manage emotional attachment and remain objective. Okay, couple things here.

It's funny that I remember in the first special, Michelle saying that her heart was knit to Jim Bob. Okay. And I remember going like that's a weird fucking thing to say. But then when you see them parodying this stuff you're like that's where they get all these weird fucking phrases. Her heart was knit to him. Ouch. So.

It will become more and more challenging to manage emotional attachment and remain objective. So again, let's keep this shit short because we don't want anything going crazy. You can't get too attached until you're locked in. We've got to lock you in before you can get... Correct. And then it goes on to say that a long courtship can become confusing and frustrating, often leading to disillusionment.

And that also the deeper the friendship becomes, the more painful a separation will be if the courtship does not lead to marriage. I read that as move it the fuck along and get married. Because then you're stuck. Because then you're stuck.

if it goes on too long you're more likely to break up yeah and that's just more painful so let's move the shit along and again lock you in yeah it's fucking weird and i also feel like their use of like saying it's frustrating i'm like are they talking about blue balls it is frustrating it just i don't know it just really feels like let's rush this along make it official

You can't do anything about it. Bad things can happen if it goes on too long. That's how it operates. Standard procedure. Then it says to remember the goals of courtship.

and that courtship is not a commitment to marry, the goal of courtship is to determine if the couple should get married or not, according to God's direction. But if your courtship fails, it's a social liability. Right? Like, oh, you must have failed for some reason. Because I feel like that in itself isn't necessarily horrible because you're like... okay, well, we're going to see if this relationship is going to work. But the system isn't set up to...

try it and go, hey, you know what? We're just not compatible. We're going to move on. The system's not set up that way. No, it's move fast into marriage. Correct. Or skip over courtship entirely like Anna and go. So that's what I'm saying. Like that statement itself isn't bad, but it's fake.

Yeah. Because they're not doing it. That's not how it actually is. Yeah. But it does say that it is likely that many godly men and women will participate in more than one courtship before God leads them to the right life partner. Sluts. So we know that Josh did have one beforehand with Kaylee. And actually in the future, Josiah has a failed courtship before he gets married.

we don't get to see it because it's in the lost season that was films but never made it to tv i would kill to get that season oh my god but so it does happen but it is not widely talked about like They definitely paint the picture of one and done. So it's funny that this says that you might have many. So, you know, if you have.

I used to see this in sitcoms where they had a friend that would never settle down, and they'd be like, oh, that friend's the serial dater. In this community, they'd be like, hmm, he's a serial quarter. Yep. So the next section is receive hope and healing if the courtship is ended. It says as soon as one of the individuals discerns that marriage is this marriage is not God's will.

With the counsel and affirmations of his or her parents, the courtship should be ended. So I think it's funny that even if you're like, nope, you still got to go. They're saying still. seek counsel yeah there's a process there's still like it's still not entire like you're still having to tell these other people and then it's like okay yes it can be ended yeah and

It says, instead of becoming bitter, everyone involved can choose to have a grateful heart. The conclusion of a courtship can be painful, and the couple should seek the support of parents, mentors, and friends, as well as the Lord's healing. The thing that I think is funny though, when you think about that, I thought this entire process started by asking God if you should, if this was like the right person to enter into a courtship, right? Correct.

So, if it ends up not being right for marriage, where does God's direction in the beginning... How do you justify that? Like, what's the... explain it to me like i want them to explain like what does it mean so was was god leading you into this to teach you a lesson right was god's will wrong what is it it's just an interesting

It's just an interesting conversation to be had that I feel like they don't really have. So just rounding out all of this information, I just want to leave you off with this one quote. says that marriage is part of God's plan for most of his children. As is evidenced clearly in the scripture, God said, it is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him a help meet for him.

whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing and obtaineth favor of the lord so this is where if you've ever heard me say helpmeet this is where helpmeet comes in because i will make you a helpmeet gross disgusting Like the verbiage for women is just so disrespectful in just everything. Yeah. The actual words, the ideas behind it. Like we're just here to like have all the men around us.

pick us figure it out for us yeah so gross and i think when it's normalized they feel like this is this is my part like i'm playing my part and i think from an outside perspective It doesn't look that way. It's minimizing. It's demeaning. It's, you know, fill in the adjectives. And then you see people that turn against it almost.

pity the people that are still in it oh yeah yeah like i think for like i mean obviously we didn't grow up in this cult but i feel like even you and i look at it and like feel bad for them yes you know yeah because because they believe it and they like you asked me like this week

about anna you're like does anna like you're i forget exactly what your question was but we're just like talking oh it was about how it seemed to really flip-flop like where did she really did she think that they were had even been courting we're all under the idea that she had no idea they were

recording that it was like some very vague getting to know each other a little bit talking a couple times and it dropped jump straight to engagement and i think you asked me something along the lines of like what she like would think of that i'm like well the idea being if he if he was proposing that meant that he had asked her father and that her father had said yes so to her it's like well it doesn't matter because yeah

And it's not even that she thinks like, well, oh, shit, I have to do this. She thinks that's good. She thinks like, oh, well, this is how it's supposed to be. My dad says, yes, this is obviously the plan for my life. And so she thinks nothing of it where the rest of us are going.

red fucking flag honey run but yeah so i just kind of want to talk like sum this all up with some of the overall feelings that i had like my takeaway see which kind of yours is I feel like the idea is to just like keep them as naive as possible. And that it just seems like they equate any kind of life experience as like this negative thing. So like, again.

anything with michelle that was baggage it wasn't something you learned correct like if these people are all about like i would say oh i was about to i just caught myself i was about to say that they're all about learning but they're not they're about training

yeah remember how we said that times where we might use the word learning they say train so actually that just kind of explained the answered my question right they don't look at it as learning they don't want you to learn correct they want you to be trained yeah And it just feels like they really don't want you to get to know the person that well. They want you to get to know them, but not too much. Not enough with the potential that you would not like them. Yeah.

or that like you know and like let's move it along so yeah it's crazy and you know I was thinking like do can some things happen when you're dating someone can you go through painful things sure can you have some experiences that you wish didn't happen sure whatever of course you and i would argue that is important things to learn because it's preparing you to not make that same mistake these kids are not really afforded the chance to learn those things about these people

And then look for something differently. Because it's moved along so quickly. Yeah. They don't get to do any of that. So in this idea, like it wasn't mentioned in this episode, but I do just recall from other things. They talk about like courting being a way to kind of like safeguard your heart. Yeah.

It's like less bad is going to happen to you if you go into a courtship versus dating. Correct. Which is like really funny to me because courting versus dating didn't save Kaylee Holtz from having a bad experience. She had... you know, a pretty bad one. Yeah. And she actually later on described feeling like kind of manipulated and used by Josh. And this was actually, so if you remember their, their courtship got cut off after the night in the bedroom.

but from everything I've my understanding is that later on they kind of tried to see if something could work out again wasn't like official official but they were kind of, you know, testing the waters. And he was actually talking to her about some of his like issues with porn. And I guess the way he talked to her about it, she said she felt manipulated and used and that she knew that she was done and that she needed to walk away.

so good for her and this time she learned from it but that's what happens with dating but so to act like courting saves you from these things it didn't save her from this at all let's take another person as an example caleb williams They're the ones that they're trying to use as their scapegoat. So you remember how he's been charged with statutory rape because of the girl he was in a courtship with. So that didn't save.

It didn't save this girl from a bad experience. She got knocked up at 16. Right. And back on that same topic of them, when it talks about having a short courtship, I forgot to bring this up earlier. Caleb is seven years older than that girl. Wow. So when they started it, she was 14. And when she got pregnant, she was 16 and he was 23. So again, with this whole short courtship thing, what did you what did you think was.

That's not short. No. Because she's got four more years before she's going to be of age. And I feel like it worked against them because they talk about keeping them short so that bad things don't happen.

yeah the longer they go on they talk about the longer it goes on the more feelings you might have yeah and they had sex yeah so it completely it's just ironic and of course the final example of courtship not saving you from jack shit nothing is anna herself yeah she just it directed her straight into this life and i don't have sympathy for her now because of the way she's acted i have sympathy for 20 year old anna

Yeah. That had no choice. Well, she had no social skills to figure out red flags. She had no prior experience to draw upon in order to be like, hey. The last time this happened, I really didn't like it. So maybe we should make a change or maybe I should talk and have a series. Like she couldn't even talk about her feelings. So it was like the second she was in, she was fucking done for.

Yep. Like, there was no chance that she was going to leave that thing. She was being, like, you know, led to the slaughter, basically. Yeah. And, you know, 34-year-old Anna, number one, now has kids to think of. And she has family.

you know to look back on like we talked about all the kellers last week and how she has these examples of leaving or um but yeah but 20 year old anna didn't have that so just i just i have more empathy for that young version of her because she had no idea yeah yeah so it's just wild these ideas of like courtship being so much better but your your track record isn't

proving shit to us that correct that this is the better option you know but god forbid you give away pieces of your heart through dating and i think you look at like not every courtship in that religion is exactly the same obviously because there's idiosyncrasies so i think from their perspective they'll be like but look at all these that worked out so well

But then you're also now untrusting because you're like, what's going on behind the scenes now? Or what's something that you wish you could get out of this for, but nobody could ever know about it. So you're just going to swallow it and it's going to manifest. an emotional breakdown when i'm 40 you know like those all of those positive stories aren't picture perfect uh they lived happily ever after positive stories everybody has shit

And it's really funny when I can compare it to how I grew up. Again, referencing growing up Mormon. But I was always taught you weren't allowed to date until you were 16. But dating was not only encouraged, but they specifically don't tell you not to date one person. It's the polar opposite of the whole courtship thing. They say date multiple people. Don't be tied down to one person.

and so it's wild to see like how I thought that was like a conservative view or like whatever but like or you know just like coming from that kind of conservative background in general and like compared to this ain't nothing yeah that looks all hippie gypsy seriously like you're just like loosey-goosey out there dating multiple people and of course they're still preaching like you know

abstinence and all that stuff but they're not like anti-kissing they're not like you can't you can hold hands before you get engaged yeah so it's just to see the complete polar opposites and this is just crazy to me because they're like no no not one person because and then here they're like oh no only one right it feels like there's a little bit more care for like the person's emotional upbringing When it's not the case, like it's not a very open, kind of like honest.

hippie gypsy environment in the mormon church but comparatively you're like damn they really care they look fucking liberal compared to this and their idea of course is like you're you're dating multiple people to see what you want and don't want in a partner correct which i like i at least agree with that of course yeah and so you know they still don't want you having sex and of course in just any kind of conservative background

people tend to get married fast because they want to bone as soon as possible. So, you know, they're still similar in those senses that they move shit along quickly, but at least you are allowed to start dating and you're allowed the opportunity to... date multiple people correct anyways that's all i just wanted to end with that yeah fascinating rambled a little but you know it's been i think this this whole this whole episode and everything in about was fascinating yeah so

As per usual, check us out on Instagram. Digging up the Duggars pod. Whitney does a fantastic job of curating some visuals related or things that we've talked about. It was interesting to see the Keller family after the last one. Definitely interesting. We are getting a couple more ratings here and there. Yep, yep, yep, here and there. We always appreciate the five-star rating. No, no.

But we also have our email digging up the Duggars at Gmail. If you want to reach out to us, it's been fun connecting. I always thought, Oh, I hate that. I said connecting. So I always think that sounds cheesy. We love connecting with you, but I just kind of.

flying out of my mouth but i do i enjoy the conversations that get brought up um we've had people like dming us like actual hey what do you think about this and it's been actually a lot of fun to dive into conversations with people so yeah i'm enjoying it You guys are the greatest. We love it. Yeah. So keep reaching out on all the platforms. So that's it. And we will see you next week.