Episode 6 - We Know, Michelle.

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from arkansas all right It is episode six of Digging Up the Duggars. And I've been really excited about getting to this point because now we're officially into the TV show, not just the specials. Like I keep saying, I feel like this is when you get more of a feel for everybody, more personality comes out. We're over with the trial for now. So just kind of an exciting point where like fresh start getting back into things.

as i like really envisioned and kind of planned it for it to be but before we actually jump into that can i just do a couple little you know like housekeeping things real quick go ahead First is, as a shock to no one, Josh's lawyers did say that he plans to appeal. You have to say that within 14 days after.

um you know after his sentencing they said they planned to they just filed the official thing no surprise to anybody but just wanted to throw that out there uh second order of business is you remember last week's hymn how We discussed Jason a couple of different times. Yes. Number one, his sweet suit. Yep. Well, I mean, sweet. I don't know. And then his sweet tree house. Mm-hmm.

And remember how you asked me how old he was? I'm like, oh God, you want me to remember? Yeah. And I guessed 22. I don't know why I felt the need to point this out, but I looked it up and he is indeed 22. So I was like, damn, I was pretty impressed with myself there. I felt like it was a safe guess, but a good guess. It's all in your head through osmosis. Yeah. So, third one. Are you ready for this one? I'm sitting down. This is a big revelation right here. Anna Duggar.

You know, Josh's wife. Yes. She has now been spotted not once, but twice out in public wearing jeans. Whoa, gene alert? Yes. So the first one was pre-sentencing, and it appears she was going to get her nails done for the sentencing. And then she has been seen...

Since then, at, like, Silver Dollar City, which I've heard of before, out, like, at a theme park with the kids. Okay. And so, I don't know. Your headship goes to prison, and then suddenly you're, like, a jeans... harlot like you're just like a you know damn she's just uh listening to genuine on on repeat

He's just going for it. So I thought that that was worth some breaking news here on the pod before we get into this stuff. That was your breaking gene news. Yeah, exactly. So that's it. And for that... Do you want to test this out before we go into it?

Sure. We've had a little bit of computer challenges. We were doing everything, recording, doing a little sample. Hey, it's working. Cool. Let's start. And then I would hit record and something would go wrong. So we're getting our growing pains out here. Yeah. So we're going to take a break.

make sure that this saves before we move on to the next thing. All right. We'll see you in a bit. Okay. So now we are officially into where they're on TLC and the first show, you know, when it starts is 17 kids and counting. It has now been one year since Duggar's Big Family album. So we're at September 29th, 2008. And the first episode is Big Family meets Big Apple.

And one thing I just wanted to point out really quick is that once they get into season two where it's like 18 kids and counting, it goes into full one hour episodes. 17 kids and counting is kind of weird because they're half hour episodes. Some of them being that on the same night they air two episodes. I'm like, why weren't you just doing one hour episodes to begin with? But then there are random times in the season when they just play one. So it is kind of like all over the place.

So I'm just kind of playing it by ear and maybe somewhere down the line during the season we might combine some episodes into one of our episodes of the podcast. But for now, because of the kind of plan I have in place... we are going to divide them out. So today we're just covering the one half hour episode, Big Family meets Big Apple. Which is weird because all the specials were like 45-ish minutes.

So this one felt like it was very fast. I know that doesn't seem like that's that much of a difference in time. And I feel like it ended abruptly. It did. But then they probably played the next episode immediately after. So it really was like a one-hour episode. It's so stupid. But... So this is the first time that because it's an actual TV show, they get like a full blown intro and everything. So I actually just wanted to read off.

the intro that they give I was sitting there typing it up as it was opening and it starts with Michelle saying this is the story of my family that's me Michelle there's Jim Bob my wonderful husband And our children, Josh, Janet, John, David, Jill, Jessa, Ginger, Joseph, Josiah, Joanna, Jedediah, Jeremiah, Jason, James, Justin, Jackson, Johanna, and Jennifer. Do I sound like her?

A little bit. I tried. It's harder than it sounds. I will say that... because they have so many kids you could randomly change the name of one of those kids like every time we record one of these and i probably wouldn't notice yeah you wouldn't but so then she's like this one's josephus and i'm like yeah josephus he's like the sixth one right

But she says, if you lost count, that's 17 in all. And yes, I delivered every one of them. There's also one more on the way. And then it switches to, like, the kids saying some of the random lines. And then I think it's Josiah. I think I might know my homie's voice. It's not Josephus. It's not Josephus. I think I know my homie Josiah's voice. And so Josiah says, we are not your typical family. And then Jill, is it sad that I kind of know their voices?

For some of them. Jill says, and it's not just because of our enormous size. Then Jim Bob pops in and he says, we have very conservative values. Back to Michelle. Our children watch very little television and we close them. closely monitor their access to the internet among other things which we know not to be true because josh was watching porn multiple times at this age so that's not true um then some kid that i don't recognize

says, as for school, that happens around the dining room table. Back to Michelle. To make ends meet, we own several commercial properties that we rent out. And then my homie Josiah ends it with, even though we're... We're nine times the size of an average family. Somehow we make it all work. What do you think? That was a pretty good... I had a breath. Damn. That was...

That was something. It's because you don't have a bunch of kids to do the work for you. I know, right? I couldn't be like, Josiah, pick it up from here. Yeah. Jeebus. Get over here, Jeebus. Okay, so. So the very opening scene is in.

Jim Bob and Michelle's bedroom and they have Jennifer in the swing she's the latest one and Jim Bob is like swinging her and he goes Jennifer how would you like to have a little brother or sister Then he looks at Michelle and he says, do you want to tell them the news? I want to point something out on this. In this scene, like the music was very sweet. It was kind of like a lullaby, like you're in a child's nursery.

uh you know music and you know the the actual you know video of them it was this very sweet kind of uh small moment close moment like amongst them And I even put, regardless of the framing, Jim Bob is always creepy. Always. Like, you could put different music to it, and it would be a horror movie. No, it's more. I actually didn't find it sweet at all.

So I'm like, you're calling it sweet. I'm like, sweet. I mean the framing. Like if you changed it with some random person that was not Jim Bob, you'd be like, okay, it's kind of staged, but whatever. No, but with him it's creepy. Well, and so he says, Michelle, do you want to tell the news? And then Michelle is like kind of like giggling, but she does seem annoyed for Michelle annoyed. How can you tell? She says, I think you just did. And.

yeah so then he oh my god i can't even he's so annoying he says do you want to show them the pregnancy test and michelle is like um no yeah that was awkward that felt awkward she's like i'm not gonna do that like so yeah she's like um even she's like the fuck you don't want to show them the stick that you peed on

So I thought that was an interesting moment. So they had just found out the night before, apparently, that they're pregnant. And they're keeping, at this point, it's a secret from the kids. So the next scene. They're talking about how they're headed to New York City for the Today Show, and then later on they have an appearance.

in arkansas at the peabody or something but they're mostly focusing on how they're headed to new york city for the today's show because it's mother's day weekends and they're like we're always busy on mother's day because you know mom gets so much attention so They're packing for the trip. And by they packing for the trip, I mean the older girls. That's who's doing all the work. It's funny because...

Michelle says that now Ginger does the laundry because they switched jurisdictions. It used to be Jessa. And then she says, and I quote. They know more about that laundry room than I do right now. We know, Michelle. Yet again. We know she always thinks she has these cutesy. I'm like, do you think it's cute to like point out that?

You don't do anything around the house. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't, I think she thinks it like looks good on her that like she's trained them so well. Cause you know how they trained, trained is their phrase. Correct. But I'm like, it's not cute, Michelle. Like. Okay so then it goes into them actually packing the clothes and I did think one thing that was sort of interesting because I was like oh that's actually a pretty smart way to do things for that big of a situation. So they pack.

by the day per person so they like take you know jebus's stuff and they lay it all out for friday and then they roll it all up together they put it in a grocery bag and they write their name on it and they pack suitcases full of everybody's clothes for that day So I did think that was kind of an interesting way to do it, that for their situation actually makes a little bit of sense. Then the next thing is...

so then it's the so they're doing that like the night before and then it goes into the morning of and they're supposed to be leaving in like 10 minutes or so and then Michelle is just getting back from going to the store for like diapers or something and they're like oh I don't think we're leaving in the next seven minutes yeah and um so when Michelle's getting back I think you pointed something out

I was just looking at bumper stickers. They have two bumper stickers on their SUV thing. One of them is a Mike Huckabee. Go figure. Yeah. And then the other one, I couldn't read it because it was obviously like DVD quality from the... 2000s um but it was all i could read was god doesn't believe in so i really wish we knew what that said so we'll be keeping a close eye on all that as if we can figure that out later on but

they end up only leaving a half an hour late which you know we kind of saw how late they can be in some of the specials and you'll see going forward tim that they are like always always late so for them a half an hour is not too shabby for leaving late yeah So then they get on their bus, their giant bus, and they're singing hymns the whole way, which, ugh, like I can't imagine being in a bus full of like 18 people and having to, it's actually like 20 of them because Grandma Duggar is there too.

And they're just like seeing hymns and shit. Then Michelle hands out motion sickness medicine because she says that they all, that they get it, they all inherit it from her. But I know Jim Bob gets it too. So it's like they have it from both sides. And it was funny because you remember how that part cut out?

when we were watching it on youtube but yeah no fear they showed it all pretty much again in this them just all puking in bags and walking off the plane holding bags of puke yeah it was like every single one of them looked like they were miserable like i think if i i think somewhere they said that like maybe like three or four of them didn't throw up so they just had a plane full of puke of that poor person the poor like person flying that plane entire family of puking people so then they

They get there and they're there one hour before their flight. And before anything else happens, I'm already like, are they insane? Who shows up with 20 people?

with an hour before you're like before you're playing and they have to check all of those bags like it's not like they're just all rolling carry-on style they have to check all these damn bags and they end up what is oh oh yeah yeah so 20 bags because grandma dug her 20 people and then probably 15 plus bags and then a little pop-up thing on the screen came up and said that it was over eight thousand dollars

for their tickets which you know they didn't pay for but still eight thousand dollars and that um they would be taking up a third of the entire plane which i was like holy shit like i never stopped to like think about that But while they're getting ready and they're like going through, they realize that Jana didn't have her ID and it was actually like in her checked bag.

so they had to go get it back out and like she seemed embarrassed as fuck like i don't know like are annoyed and jim bob is like well you need it for federal for for you know security and she's like i don't know

never done this so like i kind of felt bad for her because she seemed embarrassed so like explain to your kids i kind of felt like it was like a passing the buck moment it's like you've got these naive kids that you haven't taught them anything about the world and suddenly jim bob you're kind of annoyed that she didn't have right tell her have her fucking id on her like i don't know um so then they

Michelle is talking about how, you know, it's a lot getting through security to taking off your shoes with that many and, you know, just getting through all of it. It's like, well, duh, this is why you don't show up with 20 fucking people with an hour to go.

yeah it's like it's you and me and i want to be there an hour and a half to two hours early like i can't imagine with 20 people half of them being like under the age of 10 right insanity And so they end up making it onto the plane like five minutes before like scheduled takeoff.

everybody else is like pretty much seated and they're just like piling on like this third of the plane but i guess in that essence in that sense it wasn't gonna leave without them because they're the third of the exactly uh so then the flight i guess it goes okay because they don't really talk about it i i you know obviously said that none of them got sick yeah none of them got sick they didn't like film for it or anything yeah so then it's

goes to them being picked up by a driver from the airport and i did think it was kind of like funny they're talking about oh his accent like his like new jersey-ish like accent and stuff and they give him a postcard of their family I was like, do they just walk around with like. Yeah, obviously like promotional something. But I wanted to like.

obviously it's like, you know, this picture of the family and like whatever, but I'm like, Oh, I'm here. You know, there's gotta be like a scripture on it somewhere, but I'm going to, I should have zoomed in. So after they get picked up, they end up dropping off their stuff at the hotel. And then... Oh. the producers end up like asking so now we're into like the talking heads type situation so as compared to the specials now is when there's like those little talking head interviews and the

Producers are asking some of the kids what makes Michelle a good mom, since this is geared towards Mother's Day. Jessa says experience makes her a good mom. Until they had the first four kids. Right. And then Josiah says that she's not angry, but real calm. And he likes that about her. Zero killer. Yeah. And then.

Josh says something I didn't even write down what he said but something about like oh inspirational he just said some like whoop like foo-foo shit I don't really remember so then they're all hungry right so they or wait

Did they go to the Central Park before they ate? Oh, yeah. So they went to Central Park, but there wasn't a whole lot that happened. I mean, they played around. They ran around. They played, took some pictures. There was this really awkward moment where they got to like a playground. One of the interesting comments that one of the girls said was that that was the only place that she's seen children.

And she's like when she when she looks out when they were like on the streets or when they were driving in, she said she felt like it was nothing but adults. And then, you know, the kids only they she only saw the kids at the at the playground.

central park which i thought that was interesting and then there was this really weird like scene where uh lego hair was like up with some of the kids like climbing on the things that's jimba by the way um and then they go to like take a picture And I did think it was funny because it was like every one of the boys, Jim, Bob, and like one girl.

yeah it was an odd mix i was trying to figure out and like one of the boys was taking the picture i'm like what was the like it wasn't like all the guys like it was like what what was the point of this group picture yeah and then there's this really weird like staged a moment where he's like

say hi to your mom and they like turn around and wave and to like this random ass group of parents and kids at this park and at this playground in central park he was like mother of the year or mother of the world right there like it was just very awkward yeah jim bob is awkward yeah so after central park they're like we're starving but then of course like they're like we felt like we walked around and everything was just little shops and we were having a

hard time finding food they find a pizza place but as you can imagine like these places in New York are not set up for 20 people to come walking in all at the same time so they go into this little pizza shop and completely take up the entire place I mean it looked like hell

They're like ordering these giant pizzas. He's like, we'll take three of those. And they're just shoved in this corner. Like literally some of them are just like standing. They're trying to pass out food. Like nothing about it looks good.

And Michelle is outside and she's like, I'm drinking my coffee milk. And she was like, I'm letting them have pizza. And she said that she had crackers and cheese and she's feeling nauseous, but she has to, you know, it's a secret right now. So she can't let on that. She's feeling sick to like the kids.

um it was kind of funny though because one of the guys that worked at the pizza place he was like the only the biggest family i've seen is this guy over here and he points to the other guy and he comes from a family of 12 but i mean 12 is a lot

17 is a lot more so still still a little different so then after they eat pizza they're talking about how they're going to go to Times Square which I was like oof that sounds That sounds like a bad idea. That sounds terrible. And they say that they're going to take cabs. So they end up dividing into groups. And they're trying to hail a cab. My favorite part of the episode.

Josh can't get a cab. So then Jim Bob's like, look, try this. And he's like holding onto money and waving it. And then the girls are like, they stopped right away. and you know so then they're trying to like get the various cabs figured out but the most hilarious part of it is that they end up interviewing like three girls that are kind of like over there like on the sidewalk and

They say that they recognize them from TV, but they say you can spot them because of the way they dress. Yeah, they dress like they're Amish or from the upcountry. Yeah, and so I'm like, a couple things. Oh, honey. Like, you clearly don't know what Amish people look like, but I feel like people just say Amish. when they just mean like different like i'm like they clearly don't dress amish and number two it's like oh honey if only you could have seen what they looked like two seasons ago

Or two, like, specials, you know, two years ago when it started in, like, 2005 with the specials. A lot more frill dresses. Because I'm not saying they look good here. But they look a whole hell of a lot different, don't you think? They've added probably about 25 years to their wardrobe style. So it's like they're not wearing the prairie dresses anymore. Michelle's hair is slightly less terrible.

And like, you know, the girls now have like the crunchy curls. So still not good, but it's better than the prairie dress situation. So I'm like, man, if you guys think this is bad, you guys have no idea what it looked like two years ago. And then it ends pretty abruptly right there. Yeah. The next like minute and a half was them being like, oh, and then we went to the Today Show and then we were trying to talk about some stuff. It's like the preview for the next episode. It's not.

it's the preview yeah but it honestly everything about it felt very like rushed yeah like it was 30 seconds of of uh we're gonna quickly talk about and then that was over One of the things I did laugh at was the guy at the pizza joint that they were interviewing was just talking about, oh, man, having that kid, like normal shit. How do they feed all those kids and blah, blah, blah. And then that's when he makes the comment about his coworker. One of the things he did say was he's talking.

about uh lego hair and he was like he seems like he has a lot on his hands he doesn't really parent though so it's as much as i think we would like oh yeah he's probably all over no the the other kids are parenting their kids yeah people you know they're always getting they're constantly getting these like kudos from people around them it's like you don't know what actually happens yeah so

One of the things that I think will be interesting watching is I put specifically that Michelle has a Stepford Wives smile. Because there's so many times where even when something like kind of hectic is going on, she still talks in that same kind of sing songy. It's keep sweet. It's the whole keep sweet attitude. Yeah. And that's.

more creepy than if she just got a little stern yeah she doesn't have to be like you know sing-songy like okay but you're still gonna be like okay i'm gonna kind of get parent voice the fact that she never switches out of it is like serial killer behavior but we'll talk as time goes on we'll talk about that specifically but yeah so you'll see how that evolves over time

So that's kind of it for the episode. Like I said, only about 22 minutes or so because they're the short episodes. So we'll take a little bit of a break, check up on some stuff, and then we'll get into the deep dive. Okay, time for the deep dive.

So this is happening in, you know, we're talking about September 2008 is when this episode was premiering. But the last two specials. Duggar Big Family album, which was premiered in September 2007. And then the one right before that was On the Road with 16 Children. which premiered June 12, 2006, but was probably filmed in the spring of 2006. I want to talk about stuff that was happening behind the scenes during this time. So...

Obviously, even before the specials became a thing with Discovery, they had gotten a little bit of notoriety, right? Like... small local news channels were picking like their own and then they kind of picked them up with like little stories around the country even some stuff in other countries they did talk about a little bit

but obviously their fame started to grow because of these specials, right? Yeah. So then in December of 2006, they were invited to be on the Oprah Winfrey Show, which, of course, like... Back in 2006, this is kind of like in, you know, Oprah Hay Day. And they traveled to Chicago, and they were on, like, Oprah's Dine for, like, a week. But then that episode...

Never came to be. Episode never aired. Why, might you ask? So the reason is, is that on December 7th, Harpo Studios received an email from an unnamed female. And I want to read you the email. And it says, before you air the Duggar family from Arkansas with Redacted, which is I'm assuming Josh, you need to know the truth. They are not what they seem to be. I'm just going to say Josh. Josh molested Redacted while Redacted were sleeping and the parents have been hiding the secret a long time.

Jim Bob lies to his church and his friends to make him look good. At this moment, he's in trouble with the church for lying about Josh and things that concern the way the church members reacted. I think you should know the truth before they make a complete fool of you and your show. They have been on TV before and come across as a perfect family, which couldn't be further from the truth.

They jump from show to show to receive gifts for their family and to make them look really good too. Please consider this and confront them about their secret. Interesting, right? That would have been a real awkward episode. So Harpo, you know, studios, they faxed this letter over to the Department of Human Services, which of course ends up being forwarded to their local authorities.

And then Oprah ends up canceling the entire appearance entirely. But it was all completely, like, in the works. So you want to know what else happened on that exact same day? Oh, God. Here we go. That same day, December 7th, 2006, Arkansas Child Abuse Hotline receives an anonymous tip regarding abuse in the Duggar household.

The caller says they found out about it and asked the family about it with redacted Josh sitting right there. The caller says that the parents told them it happened three and a half years prior and that... and that the son had been fondling, and then redacted names, breasts and vaginas when they were sleeping.

They talk of taking Josh to the state trooper, but that nothing was filed, and that Jim Bob knew the trooper, but that they weren't exactly sure how well he knew the trooper. They say that they... put him in some type of rehab place, but it was not a rehab for sex offenders. The caller is concerned that this was never reported and that Josh has never received treatment. That same day, Springfield, Springdale, Springfield. I just feel like you see spring and I just go, Springfield. Yeah.

freaking Simpsons, Springdale Police, they reach out to the Duggars, and they're like, we want to schedule some interviews with you guys, but the family's in Chicago and won't return until the 11th. So then, so now I went and found the police report and I read all 32 pages of it. It basically, yeah, it. includes like the interviews that they had with everybody and so I'm just going to kind of summarize those to you. Okay so on December 12th is when the interviews began.

And it's like Jim, Bob and Michelle and several of the victims and some of the other children. And so one thing I just want to. Well, actually, I'll talk about that with the kids. So the first up is Jim, Bob, and Michelle. They say that Josh came to them crying in March of 2002 and admitted to fondling breasts and vaginas four to five times.

you know the victims and we know this is crap because josh never willing you know he never came to anybody on his own they're constantly trying to give this like spin that josh confessed things yeah but we know from way back that He's never just come and confessed. He's always been caught or someone has told on him. Correct. They say that when they told one of the victims what had happened.

They said that they remembered one time waking up to Josh taking a blanket away from them, but they don't remember anything else. And I feel like Jim Bob and Michelle totally bring this up as a way to just kind of like downplay. Like, well, they just remember a blanket being taken from them. Like, it's just so gross. And Jim Bob goes on to say that in July 2002.

um he admitted to him that about jane doe number five if you remember jane doe's one through four are the ones that are six sisters number five is the one that's like the babysitter like family friends that has never been Her identity has never been fully revealed. Okay. So it was in July 2002 that he talks about how what happened with her was because she was sleeping over and on their couch and... you know Josh did the same whole thing with her so again very much a pattern.

She shouldn't have been sleeping on that couch. Right? It's just like, did she show a little bit of shoulder? Did her knees pop out from underneath that dead skirt? I wasn't even paying attention to her countenance. Yep. So in March 2003, you know, they're telling the officers about the lap incident, which, about Joy, which extensively in the trial.

and they they say that one of the sisters had run out of the room and that's how they had told them about it and they also say that it's during this same sometime during this like time frame that one of the sisters was in the laundry room and he put his hands up her dress. And one thing I just want to point out to him, remember like in the very first episode, Bobby A. and Jim Holtz.

They seem to be really under the impression that the whole lap incident that happened that day was like the first offense. So it just keeps getting worse because then they're talking about, like, there's the one in 2002 that I talked about in the first episode, but they're naming another one now. Right.

And then they're saying, well, also in the same time frame, there was this laundry. Like, it just keeps getting worse. Yeah. So we've known they've been downplaying it the entire time, but there has been multiple incidents that are, it's just insanity. So then Jim Bob goes on to tell the police how he was uncomfortable putting Josh, like sending him to a program because of the whole, you know, he might be exposed to offenders, you know, his whole argument that he has with that.

And he says that he found a Christian program that he was just more comfortable with. Of course. So here we go. Jim Bob suddenly, he just starts to play dumb. And I can't stand this. All of a sudden, he can't remember the name of the program, but he just tells them where it's at and who kind of ran it. And he's like, he says it was in an old veterans hospital and that he thought it was affiliated with the Little Rock Police Department because the station was in the same building.

And I just can't stand this whole playing dumb thing because he pulled the same card during the pre-trial for Josh back in like November. When they were interviewing him about stuff, he was like, you know, everything was fuzzy. It was 20 years ago. Correct. And that was bullshit then. But this is an even bigger crock of shit because this is three years prior.

You can't tell me you don't remember this. It's just a way to try to sweep things under the rug. Well, I mean, I don't remember the name of it. I thought it was affiliated. You knew it wasn't affiliated. If you were so worried about it being...

non-Christian you would remember what the name was and what the yeah and you know it's just really convenient oh they're in the same building I thought they're affiliated no you were you were happy to try to play dumb and act like that's what you think but you knew damn well it had nothing to do with the police yeah

Stupid. Anyway, so they said that they felt comfortable because nothing else had occurred since then after Josh came back, felt that he no longer had any problem and it all had been resolved. They say that he's apologized and that the victims had forgiven him and they had forgiven him as well. And that several members of their church were aware of the situation and had supported the family. Like none of us give a shit that your entire cult.

yeah sweeps this under the rug so you're using that as like oh look other people are okay with that then that's not saying much because this is like uh a rampant thing and they're obviously not okay with how you're actually dealing with it they're okay with the story you're telling them of how you're dealing with it so if they were doing all the things that they

were trying to look like they were then you're like okay yeah they're taking good steps it was only one situation it was you know what i mean like from the outside it looks like it's being handled correctly so of course it was like my community supported me of course you didn't tell them the truth yeah and even if they had told them the truth they're probably just as you know just as stupid as they are so it's like it could go both ways so you got the uh

You got the Bobbies and Jims that think that it's really being handled who are more on the logical side. And then I think that there's ones that are on the other end that are just as stupid as Jim Bob and Michelle. Okay, so they were asking if...

The police officers specifically asked Jim, Bob, and Michelle. They say, do you know how all this came up right now? And Jim, Bob, and Michelle, like they just really say, yep, a family friend that was aware of what had happened. wrote this in a letter around this time that this was all happening, placed it in a book, and it was completely forgotten about. And then recently that book was loaned out to somebody else with that letter still inside it.

That somebody discovered the letter and they called the hotline. Jim, Bob, and Michelle would not say who wrote the letter. So the thing that I think is so funny about, oh, and I did read somewhere else that they're like. there was like a homeschool, um, like book exchange. So I think that's how they're saying that this happened, which seems very plausible. But what I find funny, I'm like, how did Jim, Bob and Michelle know exactly?

that this is how it went down correct it's oddly specific yes but i can say that in the police report it is confirmed like through their actual following up with the person that called the hotline they find out who did write the letter And so actually what what they're saying is exactly how it happened. It's just interesting to me. Like, oh, so it seems like they got the they got like a heads up or like somehow they just know exactly how that from somebody else. Right. Word of mouth.

They do know exactly how this all came to be, which I found very interesting. Yeah. After that, the police ask if anything had ever been reported before. And Jim Bob, you know. describes the stern talking to that he got from you know mr joseph hutchins himself you know the predator himself that went to prison for yeah so he he actually tells them that you know he got a stern talking to

After that, the police report moves into the interview with the kids. Now, the one thing I will say about this is that sometimes I'm doing a lot of guesswork on who I think it might be. Sometimes it's not really important who.

who it is but i i'm kind of doing some guessing at times it can be difficult to completely follow um because of all the redactions because not not only of course do they redact out specific names they also redact out the pronouns so as you're reading it you're kind of having to kind of piece things together yeah

So in the beginning of all of the interviews they do this beginning portion where they call it just like the getting to know you for the like for the littler kids it sounds like they draw like a kind of basic face and have them describe the different parts um they also have like an anatomical picture of a body that they use for different points and questioning obviously regarding like the abuse and stuff but they also just ask them some basic questions like where do you live

Who do you live with? What do you like to do? It was hard to find sometimes like I was like, oh, maybe asking what they like to do. I'll be able to figure out if it's a boy or a girl. But like almost everybody says broomball. So I was like, well, there goes that. Nobody said eat pickles. Dang it. Damn. That's gender neutral. Right?

I do think it's funny because they ask them all where they go to school and all of them say homeschooled. I really wanted someone to say that they go to school at the kitchen table. They go to the dining room table. Yeah. I was like waiting for like one of the little ones to like, yeah, just like be like, no filter it.

but no everybody says they're homeschooled a hilarious thing that i just had never known before that i thought was worth pointing out is they all describe how they have six cats i had no idea they had six cats i don't think they've ever even shown cats And they have a dog named Jasmine. Even the dog starts with the J. Oh, God. So they couldn't even let it go for the dog. I thought that was funny. Okay, so first interview.

I don't know exactly which sister it is, but it's whoever the one had the blanket situation. So they describe waking up in the night to Josh trying to take the blanket off them.

and then Josh dropping to the floor. So obviously this is him being caught in the middle of the act. Like he was moving the blanket to try to cop a feel, and then they woke up and reacted. This interview was... oh okay so i think this is another one i think that was just like a really short one this other one is pretty short and i'm not sure if they're describing something that happened to themself or to someone else again with the redactions it's hard to tell

But they describe a time when the victim, whoever it was, himself or not, was having their back scratched. And they said it was directly on the skin so that their shirt was pulled up, but just on the back. But that Josh pulled up the shirt and touched their chest. So that's a new one I had not heard about. So it's like you're getting more details now of like, oh, yeah, this is even more widespread than we even are, you know, new. This next interviewer or interviewee describes the whole.

bible time lapse incident with joy and they said that they were reading the raccoon book king aaron which i have no idea what that is well you know i'm gonna look it up have you ever heard of raccoon book negative King Aaron and it's kind of funny because I don't know about you Tim but like you know reading hearing Bobby's testimony and all these things

You almost kind of put a picture in your brain of kind of what you thought happened. Right. I guess I thought in my head, and I don't know if you did, but I guess I thought Josh maybe had the girl on their lap.

on the lap and was like reading to her directly. Yeah. That's kind of what I always had in my head. Okay. So it is funny. So you thought the same thing, but then now getting more details and I'm a slut for details. I like all of these, you know, it starts to really like paint the picture more.

This person is describing how there was multiple of them in the room and like someone was sitting in mom's chair and then someone was sitting on the couch and then someone was sitting on the arm of the couch and all these different little details. And it says that that blank, like redacted, dropped the book and ran from the room. And then, you know, went to go tell mom and dad.

And they described as Josh, you know, going up their dress, like through, like moving like their pants and touching skin is how they described it. and said it felt weird and I don't know I feel like and this is again just my projection just me speculating all the way But I'm like, I think they're just, I don't know who is actually being interviewed necessarily, but I think Jill was the one to run out of the room. Number one, Joy is her buddy. So she kind of like, you know, I think.

pays like special attention to her. I just could see Jill being the one reading and then look over and see this happening and then like freak out and run out of the room. Correct. Total speculation.

Moving on to the next one that they interview is clearly another victim. When they just are asked very, very, very beginning, when they said, do you know why you're here? They instantly begin to cry. Ooh, never a good sign. Yeah. And I feel like this could be Jill or Ginger only because I think that they they have been more emotional about the whole thing. I'm not saying Jessa doesn't have emotions about it, but Jill and Ginger have been more openly like.

emotional about it so i just feel i just my my gut thinks it's one of them okay they talk about an incident where blank so obviously redacted was on the washing machine which was weird but that's what it said And Josh picked them up and did something. Had stuck their hand up the dress, but did not remember what had been done. Again, really not sure if they're referring to themselves or someone else. It's all pretty, you know, pretty.

fuzzy um this officer asked them how they felt now and they said they did not totally trust josh but that they love him and then they said that they do feel safe in the home Maybe because there's so many of them that maybe there's less chance that they're alone.

yeah maybe and you know when they move into the house they have the boy and girl rooms now because specifically in all these interviews every single time they ask them where did this happen and everybody talks about it happening at the old house okay so i'm like maybe there's a sense of security of being in the new house and they have these separate rooms and you know and i don't so that just gives me ginger and jill vibes next one

Oh, the next one, there's no doubt. It is Jana. It's completely Jana's interview. Based on the fact that they're not a victim. A little bit too old. Yeah. She's always cleaning her mom's and dad's room. Yeah, she's gone. She's busy. Yeah, doesn't have time. So we know that Jana of the older girls is the only older girl that wasn't a victim. And this...

When they, like, ask her what she likes to do, she says she likes the kitchen and to cook and to come up with new recipes. They mention trying to get their GED, and they say that they've never been. Yeah. Say they. They've never been touched and says that they like to be being together with the family and says, quote, if you can get along with your brothers and sisters, you can get along with anyone. Talks about not.

really knowing much and only knowing bits and pieces of all these different things that have been going on. They also recount the whole Bible time lap thing. They talk about, and again, we're getting more details with each person you're getting. It paints the picture a little bit more. So the parents were out to eat with the grandparents when this happened. And she said someone called dad to come home.

That someone I'm thinking is, I still think is Jill. And that they didn't know, but thought that Josh had touched Joy while in his lap.

They said that after he was sent away, things got better and that the whole thing brought the family closer to God. Weird. I mean, it's just such a... it's just such a way that you know that they've been taught like but you know just cling to god and everything's better just like they're just parroting like you know if you just look to god if you just look to god really sad actually yeah so this next one sounds like

a non-victim, possibly a brother. And the questioning sounds a bit more juvenile in nature. So... Like I kind of talked about before they had those diagrams. I kind of skipped over things like that because I didn't feel like all those details were necessary. But for this particular kid, they're asking what touches they do like. And they say, oh, I like back scratches from mom and dad. I like hugs. I like kisses from mom and dad. And they did say, I do not like high fives.

Me either, bro. So they don't like high fives. But then the officer asked, okay, is there anywhere that you shouldn't be touched? And this kid didn't quite seem to understand what the officer was getting at. So the officer asks things like, your arm? And they say, yes. And they say, chest. And they say, yes. And then the officer says, pee-pee holder?

gross like that's yeah that's odd that's more awkward than a lot of the stuff seriously i'm like and the kid says no and then they say back and they say yes and they say bottom and the kid says sometimes So then, of course, the officer asked more questions. And that's when we find out that Jim, Bob, and Michelle punished their kids by hitting them with a rod. A rod. And that is the kid's word. I did not.

This is not me, like, coming up with that on my own. The kid actually says a rod. And the officer asks if this happens to all the kids, and he said yes, or I think it's a him. and they ask if they leave bruises, and the kid says no. So that was an interesting tidbit. Now we know that they beat their kids with a rod. we should have a deep dive episode on the rod right what's its material uh how aerodynamic is it what color is it

Did they interview the rod for the trial? They should have, man. So there were some other interviews that clearly sounded like brothers and other non-victims because it didn't really produce anything. I just kind of skipped over those.

But we do get to a point in the report where they have clearly reached out to the parents of Jane Doe, number five. And the parents said they didn't know if blank wanted to. wanted to be brought in they would speak to her and see if she wanted to talk they go on to say what sounds like basically if we thought this was an issue they would have brought it up at the time

And they also mentioned that everything is good between the families and that they took care of the problem. Did they? They said blank and blank. Did not want to make this into a bigger deal than it was. Oh, God. And this whole thing just makes me so sad because it really highlights how this isn't just a Jim Bob and Michelle thing. It is their entire little culty circle. It is who they surround themselves with. It is their belief system. It goes so far and beyond just Jim, Bob, and Michelle.

Correct. So in this moment, I'm just like so sad for this girl because her parents are like, if this isn't a problem, why are you even calling us? This has been handled, which is just classic. And after that.

They end up having a conversation with just Michelle. That initial one was Jim, Bob, and Michelle. Kind of sounds like this is more at the end of the day. They're giving Michelle like a card talking about... clearly bringing josh in because josh still hasn't been if you've noticed he's not been included in these interviews yet right so they're asking michelle more questions at this point and they ask about the training center that josh was sent to training center

Michelle says, well, it wasn't really a training center. Ooh. And they asked if who he talked to was a certified counselor, and she says no. She said it was a guy that they knew in Little Rock that was remodeling a building. Oh, my God. So this is the thing that we kind of touched on a little bit in episode one.

And then the officer asked if the guy was more of a mentor, and Michelle answered, kind of. So, you know, she's really selling this right here. She is selling how much treatment they got Josh. And I'm assuming she still said all this in her sing-songy Stepford Wife serial killer voice. Yes. Well, kind of. So then some time passed.

So this is all, you know, this is all taking place on the 12th. We're fast forwarding a little bit on December 19th and then Jim Bob calls and he leaves a voicemail and he tells them that he's hired an attorney and that blank but I'm assuming Josh will not be coming for the interview next day on December 20th the detective gets a call from an attorney who had actually contacted them earlier sometime

between the 12th and the 19th and he'd contacted them saying he hadn't necessarily taken them on his clients yet but he was just like asking a few questions yeah i think he was asking when the interview for josh was going to take place and anyway so now he's calling on the 20th and he lets them know that he has decided not to represent the Duggars and he just wanted them to know that so that they don't come to him as a point of contact he said that he referred them to another attorney

but they have also declined as of that morning to represent them. So he was just like, hey, I'm unsure who their representation is, but this is what I know. It's neither of us, which is interesting. So then... The report documents go on a little bit more about how they reach out to Jim Bob about an interview again. And then the report ends there. And unfortunately, the reason the report ends there...

is because later that day, everything is dropped and no charges are filed because it is found that it has exceeded the statute of limitations, which is only three years. That is wild. insanity yeah so after all of this and then i mean just like a complete drop off nope never mind so didn't even matter that he did or didn't have a lawyer every just everything gets dropped and then

That's why up until now, Josh got away with not having any kind of record. Damn. So that's the saga of December 2006. The... oprah winfrey show that never was yep and yeah that's what happened with that wild one thing is it i don't know if it's we've been going for too long or not

If I tell you this one part I want everybody to take this was a very very like heavy grain of salt because As far as I can tell, that episode never even was filmed. It's not really confirmed, but to me it sounds like it was all pre-production. So they were in town, getting ready for it, probably filling some promo shit.

um and then it got canceled while they were there because i feel like if it had filmed we would hear from studio audience members right like that should have come out at some point yeah maybe not the footage they might have destroyed that but somebody would have been like oh yeah i was there like yeah because people were dying for tickets

oprah like somebody would have been an audience so that's what leads me to believe it never really was films yeah because the wording of stuff in different articles are kind of misleading some of it are like nope never happened and other things are like well you know so it's a little misleading so

There were some details that someone supposedly talked about of the episode on a website that was called freeginger.org. And that was kind of like the early versions of Reddit back when you had to have like... separate websites separate message boards for whatever for whatever it was and people created it because everybody was convinced that ginger would be the one to like break out like ginger was like done with the shit ginger so it's free ginger

So it was on freeginger.org that this person gets on there and they're claiming that they know someone, they're friends with someone or knew them. That worked for Harpo and that, you know, they had to keep it quiet all these years because they didn't want to get their friend in trouble. But it's been they've been long gone because, you know, Oprah Winfrey Show went away a couple of years after that. Right.

And so they're like, I think it's safe now. So they end up saying, they say that Oprah asked the tough questions and that, that the Duggars like replied, we can't answer that. We don't want to tarnish our image. answer that might lead to others to stray I don't know how believable that is to me because I don't think they ever filmed it but they could also be referring to like the pre

You know, kind of like sometimes they give you an idea of what you're going to be answering like before. So maybe like in the rundowns of that is when the Duggars were like vetoing a bunch of questions. I could see that happening, but that's not how they described it. Right. So again, take it with a healthy dose of salt. And apparently Oprah was going to offer full scholarships as long as the kids got GEDs.

Oh, wow. That's kind of cool. And Jim Bob wanted to take the money but to use it for apprenticeships. And Oprah wasn't having it. And she said, hell no. So they couldn't come to. like an agreement on that yeah and so she like rescinded her offer because they didn't want to you know they didn't want to budge on how they wanted to use the money well you can't have them go into one of them worldly ged programs right

Again, I have no idea if any of that's believable. The thing that makes it the most unbelievable to me is they talked about the Duggars admitting to Josh. masturbating and that being like a a big sin that and i'm like they would never admit to that so that's why i think that this is all a crock of shit i could see the potential of some of the questions being asked and them vetoing them and i could see the potential of offering scholarships and that going

shit right but again i don't know if i'm buying that entirely and it's just kind of one of those like little rumors yeah i think that kind of sums it up for me is there anything you want to want to add to that No, I don't think so. I think the kind of unraveling timeline will be more interesting kind of as the episodes go on and we figure out what happened where.

Isn't it wild though, that this was happening between those specials and they're still like, let's go on. Yeah. Let's get a fucking reality show. Well, I think that's, I mean, that's very, it just shows a lot of the, like, put your head in the sand. Like. You know we sent him to this program that will tell everyone else was super super helpful When it really wasn't it was also a half-ass opportunity There's an old Simpsons thing where they show Ned Flanders parents

And they're both like really artsy, bohemian. Like his dad is like a beatnik. And like Ned Flanders is like in this child psychologist office, like throwing books on the ground. He's like really badly behaved. child therapist is like well what have you done and his dad goes we've done we've done nothing and we're all out of ideas that's exactly it yeah that's how this entire thing feels like we've done nothing to actually you know

curb the behavior, get him help, take him out of situations that could be potentially bad for the rest of our family. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I think it... especially with the aftermath of uh kind of the sentencing it'll be interesting to unpack it's just so fucking ballsy that i know you're like they think they got away with it there's no filed police report but it's just typical like like part of me cannot wrap my head around it because it's so fucking ballsy

Like, how do you go on TV with skeletons in your closet thinking that I mean, you don't give a shit, but it's like all these housewives that continuously go on TV. And I'm like, how did you go on TV knowing that you're scamming these people? How did you go on TV knowing that you're stealing this money? How did you go on TV?

that your husband's cheating on you like and think it wasn't going to come out it's like all these people have this delusion of i'm like do you really think you're gonna get away with it but then the other part of me is if you always have gotten away with it yeah you don't think any differently and i think it just shows the the community aspect because they're being backed up Yeah, you're in such a cocoon of confirmation bias and delusion.

You know, you're around people that are just echoing everything that you believe in that you say. So you can say whatever you want. And then when you deal with somebody who's not a part of that community. all of a sudden, oh shit, now there's going to be issues. Now these things are coming out. People that have left that church community, now all of a sudden they're saying some things. You know what I mean? Nothing.

made it more apparent like what you just said than the jane doe fives parents yeah you know talking to the detective that one like blew me away where i was just like this is yeah yeah this just really makes it so evidently clear the community and how they all have handled this so that's why i like that the the caller said that was just like they kind of specifically mentioned the community and how they're handling it and things so yeah

All right. I guess I've blabbed at you enough. Was that interesting for you? It was a very interesting deep dive, and I think it kind of sets the tone for the next couple episodes, you know. That is one interesting thing that I've watched with them, you know, being out on the streets in New York and kind of going places. People recognize them. So there's this weird level of like celebrity that I think Jim Bob.

as i i'm gonna call him lego hair lego hair got really he just i i feel like there's that thing of like that is our lifeblood we are making our money from that And now we have this level of celebrity. So it's, nope, I got to keep the glass house intact. Oh, yeah. Yep, for sure. So it'll definitely be an interesting watch.

on just a general podcast note i think we have some new uh some new countries we do it's getting wild we got did we say jordan last jordan yeah the country of jordan i can't even keep track of when we find them and versus say them but i don't know we got like jordan and all sorts of finland the netherlands we've gotten like we got our first written review oh my god i was like so excited we're watching like the ratings come through got my first email oh my gosh so i wendy you're our first email

Thank you very much, Wendy. Shout out, Wendy. Yes. So, you know, keep them coming. We love to hear from you guys. Just to remember, we have the Instagram, digging up the Duggars pod. The day after the episode drops, I give visuals that go along with the episode. They're just kind of fun to kind of connect everything together. DiggingUpTheDuggarsPod at Gmail is our email. Oh, no, wait. I'm sorry. DiggingUpTheDuggars at Gmail.

i'm sorry the only thing that says pod is the instagram correct so that people would kind of like know so yeah we'd love to hear from you follow along thank you so much for listening and i guess we're signing out we'll see you next week