Episode 4 - That Slutty Sea-Witch

Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe it? We are from Arkansas, no? Hey guys, it's future Tim. And future Whitney. And we just wanted to reach back in time and address something real quick. Do it. We've seen our numbers go up and we've had a lot of new listeners to the pod recently.

Now, when we first started this, we've never done anything like this before. Not remotely. No, we've never recorded anything. I was a musician in school, but I never recorded anything. So we started with some very... cheap, entry-level equipment. Bad equipment and inexperience. Absolutely. So I bought Whitney this, like, sound... podcast deck years ago for christmas um and it sat in our closet for years went through a house move we came here we finally started using it and realized

this thing don't work so good this ain't gonna work no no it was real bad so we just wanted to reach back in time to anyone who's joining us for the first kind of chunk of episodes and just let you know we know that our audio is a is rough we get it No, we're painfully aware. Painfully aware, and we look back so embarrassed at it. But we stick behind our content. Yes, I do.

I feel like our content is great. So all we're saying is we hit our stride probably a few episodes into the pod. So just stick with us. Yeah, just, you know. Stick with us through the growing pains. I promise it gets better. And this was actually a huge moment of growth for me to jump into something without mindfucking it to death and not being totally prepared and whatever. So I just appreciate.

If you guys do stick with it, because, you know, there's something to be said about being one of those people that you're like, I was there for the beginning when it sounded like two different volumes in a fucking tin can. And then really bad Spotify tags. Yeah. Just stick with us. We promise you we feel like we stick behind our content and we hope you guys love it too. So we'll hit our stride.

Hey guys, it's even farther in the future, Tim. By like 45 seconds. Yep. I told Tim, I said, I want to say something. So when we were recording this, I had to stop about four times because I kept saying we've had a lot of new users. And I was like, listeners. Listeners.

I'm like a bad actor on like a movie or a commercial or something. It made me think of Joey and how he kept saying, mmm, noodle soup. And they're like, damn it. So Tim was noodle souping through that whole thing. And I was like, do we need a script? But anyways, I think we made it through it.

That's all I wanted to say. Thanks users. All right. Episode four. Um, I think I realized that I don't think we like introduced ourselves last episode. I don't know when you, do you do that every episode? I'm not really sure. I don't know. But I'm Whitney. I'm Tim. We're married. I just follow it up with that every time. Kind of. It's like an automatic response. Yep.

We're only four episodes in, so obviously it's not that hard to go back to the beginning and catch the shtick. But just in case you're popping in now on number four before going back, which we highly suggest. So the shtick is... I used to always watch the Duggars growing up. Cringe watch is what I call it, not hate watch. Because it wasn't hate watching at the time. It was cringe watching. Tim has never seen it. He's only had to listen to me.

Facts. And then when all this was coming out, I was glued to the trial. And then I just decided that I wanted to do a rewatch, trying to catch everything. You'll kind of see it in a different light now that you now knowing what we know with everything that's coming out.

I'm taking Tim along for the ride so that he can now he can understand it so he's saying he we're re-watching re-watch for me he's seeing it for the first time and we're discussing episodes and then we're having deep dives so that's like the

The little schtick, if you're popping in, I guess we'll do this every once in a while just in case. I don't know. I don't know how it works. But anyways, we're just going to go ahead and get started. So this next special is called On the Road with 16 Children. And it premiered June 11, 2006, so a few months in between the last one. That was in March. The last two were in March, actually. And...

Basically, they're embarking on a month-long trip. So there's 18 people. And they're going on a month-long trip in an RV. They said that their last family vacation was six years prior, and they vacationed on the East Coast. So this time around, they told the kids, okay, now we're going to take you to go see the West Coast. So... um oh I kind of love it because one of the very first things they say I love the little tidbits of like the snark from from the actual like production

Like there's these tiny little bits of snark, at least what I call snark. Okay. The narrator says, no, Michelle is not pregnant again. I feel like it's like the expectation that she's always knocked up. So that's how they started it off. So they buy a new to them motor home. I don't think they say how old it is, but you know, it's.

i don't know it looks a little bit older but who can tell everything looks old they're so because of the way they dress they look like they're stuck in the past so it's like the motorhome like lines up with them but i can't really tell yeah um so They end up taking they take out like the cushion seats. Yeah. And they replace them with the bench seating from their vans. Yeah. Because that's the only way they could travel with like these fucking army of children.

Crazy. And then they end up having a separate trailer for the boys. Which I was like, is that for a reason? I know, exactly. I wrote that exact same note down. I mean, is that a coincidence? Or is it so that there's not a... Yeah, probably best that Josh is with the boys. Yeah. So boys have a separate trailer. And it's kind of funny because I feel like...

you know, everything that Michelle says comes out like sing-songy and kind of like sweet and syrupy, right? And she says like a couple times, like, I just hope that the motorhome can carry all this weight. Like, did you notice that she said that a couple times? And I feel like that's her.

way of wanting to like fucking bitch at Jim Bob and be like this ain't gonna fucking work yeah but she won't just say it so she'll be like hi she just tells the camera I hope it can carry all the weight yeah and so they start Packing for the trip. I'm just going to run through a couple things that they said that they packed. 300 cans-ish of fruit and vegetables.

80 outfits altogether because they only bring a week's worth of clothes for each person. Six boxes of diapers. They said 10 packages of carrots. And then they say five gallon bucket of pickles and about 20 small jars. Yep. So pickles are a thing. They're more than a thing, almost in the tater tot casserole.

This kid's got to get their pickle fix in. Yeah, you'll see going forward. This is kind of, besides Jessa saying that her favorite thing to do in that one episode is eat pickles, this is sort of the first mention of pickles, so that's why I decided it should get a little attention. And the fact that they're taking a five-gallon bucket. Yeah, and it's like, that might be adding to your weight problem. I mean, I'm just going to.

But I mean, if they're not going to take a trip with the pickles, why even take the trip? Maybe leave the pickles at home. But so then when they're leaving, they're all standing outside the bus and they're in their little lined up, you know, roll call thing that they always are. And then Jim Bob goes. over the rules and rule number one is obey all the rules and then number two is don't write on the walls because it's hard to get writing off the walls that seems super specific and that was it

Yeah. That was the end of the rules. Those are the vacation rules. That's it. That's all you got. Before it was one toy at a time. Remember? Yeah. And then now it's like, just don't ride on the walls. Oh my God. So they're only going, they're like not even 20 miles away, I want to say. I can't remember specifically. But there's like really bad winds because they've made it over into Oklahoma at this point.

And they're barely going, I think, like 45 miles an hour. Yep. And so finally it really dawns on Jim Bob that. It can't carry the weight. So exactly what Michelle was worried about is coming to fruition. So they end up calling Grandpa and Grandma Duggar and have them bring the van. And so then Josh ends up following them for the rest of the trip. And I think he's pulling the trailer then. That's correct. Yeah, they put the trailer on the band.

And can we talk about how grandpa got lost for like 20 something minutes? Yeah. And then grandma went looking for him and he'd gone like down like to a different, like, and he's like, I would have been here 20 minutes ago. Yeah. Yeah. Grandpa Dogger got a little lost. Grandpa was a mess.

So finally, now that they're actually like on the road and going, they make their first stop, which is somewhere in Oklahoma. I think maybe even Oklahoma City. They make their first stop and it's to buy cowboy hats. Yep. Michelle puts it backwards on one of them.

That's all I remember. Not much else. Yeah. Then their next stop is at Cadillac Ranch. Yep. Which is just this, like... artsy thing which is like Cadillacs that have been put into the ground and they're like upwards and then there's this guy named LBK that's like the super like tweaker he looks like a tweaker he's obviously like artistic and he's like the part-time character

taker and the whole shtick is that you can just come and do whatever you want so they spray paint the cars and yeah that's that's kind of it michelle was like They are allowed to do this in Oklahoma, not in Arkansas. Remember, you know, writing on the walls because it's hard to get it off the walls. Next stop.

like we're kind of moving through this quickly because it's just kind of but the episode had that like every time they stopped somewhere there was a lot of like filler and they moved along quickly though yeah and honestly i was telling tim it'll be more exciting when we get through the i said exciting that's funny um but once we get through the specials and we actually get into like the episodes there's a little bit more like meat in the episodes so anyway so the next stop is they go to

Eagle Ranch Pistachio Groves, I think it was. And they just like learn about pistachios and they sort pistachios and they pack them. Yeah, like the processing facility. And that's kind of it.

The next scene I actually enjoy, though. They're talking about the sleeping situation. And it looks fucking miserable, dude. Oh, yeah. I mean, so miserable. So. um jim bob says that in the bus with all the girls and i think they have some of the little little boys with them um he says that they take turns getting like the good sleep sleeping in the bed like the one bed that it has and then he's like whoa these bench seats

The one that they took out of their van. He's like, everybody enjoys them. They're super comfortable. I don't believe that. I don't believe that for a fucking second. Do you think that those bench seats look comfortable? No, I mean, they're probably more comfortable than sleeping on the floor. They had some kids sleeping on the floor. And then they cut to the scene in the parking lot of Ginger talking about how like the night before it was like her, Jessa.

um, Jana and like what Jill, all of the girls plus two of the little boys all squeezed on the bed. Yep. there in the in the bus like the motor home and she was like one of them like i think jessa was getting pushed out of bed so she was like i'm gonna sleep on the floor but then ginger says no i'll sleep on the floor it's fine but then she she's telling this horrific story about this and she ends it with

We've been getting some good sleep, but the even better part. Okay. Um, you remember how last episode I told you that I kind of have like a soft spot for Josiah. Yeah. So last episode, Josiah was saying that all he wanted was a place to hide. like in the new house so then as soon as um ginger gets done saying we've been getting good sleep he's standing there and he's got like a he looks like pissy kind of and he goes well

She has, but she should hear my story. And I think that's why I like him. It's because, like, more than a lot of the other kids, he actually seems to have, like, personality. Like, when he's little, like, he has a little, like, sass, and I'm here for it. So he's like, you should hear my story.

story and um he says in the boys camper the heater didn't work and um i was sleeping on the ground with this thin blanket and he was he was just pissy but i just liked it and he wasn't wearing shoes i didn't notice that yeah they're in a parking lot and He has no shoes on. Then they stopped to do laundry at the laundromat. This is where Josh claims that the boys know how to do laundry too, but I'm not quite buying it. Yep.

Because they made a point to say everyone helps with laundry when they're on the road. Yeah. Yeah. Jessa gets a little bit of a break. Yeah. And in that part, they said they only brought five outfits. Five days worth of clothes. So they had to stop like every three, four days or they wouldn't have anything. Yep. So next stop after laundry is the Geronimo Trail Guest Ranch. And there they ride horses.

And I mean, it goes pretty fast. The one thing that I thought was funny is so like the older kids went with Jim Bob to actually go like ride the horses. And then Michelle stayed back with some of the little little. littler kids yeah and it was funny because she says um like the narrator is like with nine out writing and only seven to watch it's a rest for michelle yeah and i'm like not really because all of her actual like the sister moms are all off writing

Correct. Horses. So I'm like, in actuality, this is the most she's probably had to watch the little kids in years. Literally years. So I was like, that ain't quite right. Like, that's definitely not the truth. But I also did think it was funny that Michelle said that when they got to the ranch, one of the first questions that she asked is if they had air back.

availability like abilities because they're like miles from a hospital and i was like i think that's the most maternal thing i've heard her say well she can think of those things when she doesn't have to worry about the day-to-day true and Why am I giving her kudos? It's not like that's great. She's trying to avoid complete disaster for herself.

I assume she would have trained one of the elder daughters in wilderness first aid or something. Of course. In their jean skirts. Well, that's part of their jurisdiction. Right? You're in charge of the CPR. charge of um they while they're there they celebrate josh's 18th birthday yeah i just put don't know what he wished for probably don't want to yep so ick

After that, they start taking Route 66. They end up at the Wigwam Hotel, which is actually in Holbrook, Arizona. I've never been there, but we live in Arizona. So I was like, oh, that's, I've heard of it. I've just never been there. And those like teepees were like the base for cars. Yeah. The cones in cars. That was kind of where they pulled like the, pulled the ideas for that. And if I remember correctly, I think that.

that motel that's motel did i say motel i might have said hotel it's motel um i think it was built in like the 40s or something which for arizona is like old like you know we're very young over here so i feel like you got like early early 1900s or you have like Native American yeah so then they go to the Grand Canyon um Oh, and it's like before they get to the Grand Canyon, they're at a campground there, and they end up meeting a family who know who they are, but they have a mere six kids.

rookie it's like okay and it's funny because the mom says that they tried the buddy system but she's like it didn't work and then um and i'm like oh probably because like you were allowing your children to still be children and not expecting from birth them to be a mother yeah so uh then the nine-year-old daughter says

I think the most amazing thing about the Duggars is that the mom can keep them under control. So once again, fooling the entire world that Michelle is actually mothering all these children. So it's funny. I'm like. So this one, there was some weird cuts in the YouTube video that we were following.

Yeah. So they actually get to the Grand Canyon and they look at it and they say they're cold because it's windy and stuff. Because it's so cold and windy, they end up canceling a hike that they're going to go into that. who wouldn't hike with that many children into the Grand Canyon? Doing anything with that many kids sounds awful. Christ. So then after that, they take them to an airplane ride over the Grand Canyon. Yeah.

And this is where it does the weird thing you're talking about, like totally cuts out. Yeah. So they started talking about how like a bunch of the kids have never been in a plane before. you know excited for kind of this new experience they showed a little bit of footage from inside the cabin with all the kids in there and then when it kind of went to its like commercial it kind of just skipped over the entire flight

But I can give you the recap because I do remember it. Yeah. Because, of course, I've seen the original. And... I have a phobia of vomit, so of course I remember this. So the good part is you don't actually see actual vomit. But literally, I'd say two-thirds of the family in the whole... airplane ride has their face in the white bag and i do remember like the the blowing up of the cheeks like the puffing up of the cheeks

Like they're covering it. They have it close enough to their face that you're not actually seeing it happen. But I just remember like the puffed up cheeks and I about fucking lost it. So I'm, I'm not disappointed that this has been, I'm not disappointed.

But it skips directly to Jessa saying that she was like breathing through her mouth and praying not to throw up. Yeah. And then it just kind of ends for that scene. But like in all of like the precursor clips, they do show them like with the bags to their face and stuff. So it's like.

you know that's what happens it just skips over it so after grand canyon they make their they venture over to vegas but it is not at all Typical Vegas experience, of course. It's not. They go to the Mars Chocolate Factory. And that's it. That's literally all they do. And Michelle says, contrary to popular belief, this is why you come to Vegas while she's like eating a piece of chocolate. So that was that. That was the big Vegas experience.

Uh, last of like their major trip things is they go to Disneyland and their guests, oh, pisses me off. They're, they're special guests of Disneyland for the 50th anniversary celebration. So they get to the Disneyland Hotel. So it's like they're getting put up in the Disneyland Hotel and everything.

And it's kind of funny because when they're walking in, like Jim Bob's like holding some of the kids and there's this gaggle of them, you know, they're all in the hallway. And Jim Bob asks the lady, he's like, so do we get two rooms? And she's like.

Four. You got four, yeah. And I was like... that's so funny because literally their 7 000 square foot house has three bedrooms so for them they're like we just get like two like this is more bet this is more rooms than their entire house even has but you know the people at the Hotel are like, we don't allow to put ten people in one room. I just thought it was funny that they really expected that it was going to be just two rooms.

Okay. So then the next day, did you have anything to add or am I just, I'm sorry if I'm, are you? No. Okay. Really not a whole lot going on. Yeah. I didn't write that many notes in this episode. It was kind of, kind of base level. Yeah, that's it. Okay. So then the next day is when they actually go into the park. And I did think it was funny that the very first like characters that they, I don't know if it's actually who they first met, but it's what they first show is meeting the seven dwarves.

And I thought it was ironic because just last episode I was saying that the names on their beds reminded me. So I'm like, the girls should feel like a connection that they don't quite understand in this moment. And then they get, like, free ears. Like, special, like, gold. Like, 50th anniversary. Yeah, with, like, their names on it. Yeah. Then, you know, they're just going on various rides. But leave it to Michelle.

So Michelle is constantly having to convince the world that she's teaching her kids shit 24-7. Perpendicular. So we've had bankruptcy and perpendicular. Did you catch the one in this episode? I remember when it happened because she was like, everybody say whatever. So they're on the Jungle Cruise. And. Like the person says, and this was the Amazon River. And she goes, everybody say Amazon River. And I'm like, lady, not one fucking person is learning on the Jungle Cruise.

wait what do you mean it's like like she just the forcing of like trying to make everything into a thing i'm like these are fucking animatronic elephants you mean the You mean the backside of water is not O2H? Maybe. They're like, that's how you do it. That's my favorite Jungle Cruise ride. We're big fans of the Jungle Cruise. Big fans. I'd love if you could get onto one of our posts.

on the Digging Up the Duggars Instagram and maybe tell us what your favorite Jungle Cruise joke is. There you go. Add that in there. That'll be like a little Easter egg so people won't know why you're commenting that. So then I think it's actually really cool that they get to go to like this behind the scenes thing where they get to work on treasure pieces for like the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. Yeah, they were updating that the big treasure room.

and they were showing them how they do it they're getting to like gold like kind of like gold leaf stuff you know or something like that but i thought that was pretty cool and because like all i could think of is like what a fucking waste this is They are special guests, and none of these kids have seen a fucking Disney movie. That's too secular for them. I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, it's too secular. I was just like, oh, they're kids. They've seen Disney. These people...

don't kiss until their wedding day. So they think that Sleeping Beauty and Snow White are like fucking loose and slutty. Slutty? Yeah, I mean... I mean, that's why I'm into them. Yeah, so it's like that. This totally... This is not in their wheelhouse at all. They don't understand anything they're looking at. They don't know who they're talking to. They have no frame of reference for anything. And I actually just remember, like...

I grew up Mormon, so I felt like I had a more conservative upbringing than most of my friends. But I remember talking to one of my classmates in elementary school, and when she told me she wasn't allowed... to watch the little mermaid because of the witchcraft and i was like witchcraft and like it was in that moment that i'm like oh my god there are people more more sheltered than me like

I was like, but, you know, it's that slutty sea witch, Ursula. Well, yeah. And you can't be watching witchcraft. No. Stealing voices. Anyways, I went on a side rant about that for a minute. Okay, so anyways, I just feel like it's an entirely wasted experience on them. Like, glad kids had fun, wasted experience.

So after Disneyland, they go and visit a family. Because, you know, six kids. That last family only had six kids. Bush lead. I know. That is like rookie shit. So they go and visit a family that has 14 kids. And they're the doordnecks? It felt very Golden Girls. Yeah, right. Zvornak. Zvornak is their last name, yeah. Dordnaks, I think. And they roll call both of the families. like mixed in by ages. So they're all one giant line. And ironically, both moms are named Michelle. Yep. I felt like.

It was cool to see another family that had that many kids that doesn't seem like they're super religious. Yes. But they were still creepy as hell. I mean, I guess I can't say that they're religious, but they definitely looked a little more, as my dad would say, like worldly.

They looked a little more worldly. Like one of the daughters was wearing like a Roxy sweatshirt. Oh my God. That's like Mormon shit talking if your dad was saying they were worldly. Worldly. Yeah. He didn't want me hanging out with certain people because they were too worldly. Oh my. But I just. At this time, the Duggar girls were not wearing Roxy sweatshirts. So I was like, ooh, this family's a little more with it and hip and cool. And oh, just like...

Final thing that I thought was funny with this family is one of the older daughters, they're showing her cooking for all of them. She's making taquitos or something. It looks like flautas. But she talks about how she makes a weekly menu and then mom gives me a weekly allowance for it. Yeah, so she actually does the grocery shopping. But I'm like, allowance?

for you to go spend to cook for the entire fucking family like it's all it's it's they take everything to the extreme it's like you can have a kid that's interested in cooking but it's just like there any opportunity in these families that someone shows an interest in something maybe they're like oh cool so you'll do all of it jesus christ

And then it ends rather abruptly with them going to the Pacific Ocean, fully dressed in their head-to-toe dresses. Yeah, and that's it. That's kind of the end of the episode. Yeah, it wasn't a really deep episode. There wasn't a lot of... I mean, we're getting to the point where now that we've watched four of these things, they've kind of gone through everything they can go through on just the documentary specials.

But the good news is we're dwindling down on the specials. Yeah. I think we only have one left, possibly two, but those are dwindling down. So pretty soon we'll get to the regular episodes where I feel like, like I said, I think we'll have a little bit more meat to work with. Yeah. So. Yeah.

We'll take a little break and we'll come back with the deep dive. Okay so for today's deep dive I'm again going to address things that are happening in the present. I feel like we have episodes and seasons to go. We have plenty of time that we'll be able to dive into things from the past. Correct. That right now when stuff is like hot.

and like happening like present i feel like we just got to jump on it because at some point this is gonna round out like the shows don't exist anymore right so so they'll always be there i mean but i'm saying there's not gonna be new stuff coming out the same way like for us to like snark on so it's like right now when there's like stuff happening i feel like you just got to put all your attention into that

So again, just kind of talking about what's going on in the present regarding Josh Duggar's like sentencing, upcoming sentencing. So today we're going to focus on... The prosecution's response to the defense sentencing memo. All those letters. So, yes. So this is actually, it would probably be helpful a little bit if you haven't listened to the previous episode to listen to it because I'll just be referencing, you know, things from the last one.

So that could be helpful to you. But the first thing is that the so they address the defense's objection to the sadistic or masochistic enhancement. So do you remember the claims that he only extracted a portion of a zip and that that portion didn't contain that type of... Yeah. So they're just saying like, that's bullshit. Doesn't matter because they have tons of material that does depict that. So you're like, they're just telling them like, that's stupid. That's stupid. Right.

Then the argument of how he deleted some of the files, they're like, that's irrelevant. So they're just coming at them with like, this is stupid, this is stupid. Then they say that he was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury that he knowingly received CSAM. So... And then the argument that he didn't knowingly seek it out is bullshit. Because that was exclusively the type of material that was, like, obtained.

procured over the three days correct so like that was the entirety of it so you can't act like this it wasn't just like one accidental like little thing yeah in like a you know in a sea of stuff And it wasn't like a dump of other stuff and this just happened to be involved into it. No, like this was. Exactly. They're like, no, this was totally on purpose. Yeah.

And then they talk about how his attempts to delete files are completely irrelevant. And it is. I'm like, it's such a stupid argument. Yeah. So the next thing is the defense's objection to the enhancement on the number of images. Remember how they were like, well, it's only 127. Of course. Yeah. Because that makes it better. Totally. So.

So remember how the defense was claiming that he did not fully view or actually download everything that would qualify it for the 600 images that the prosecution is saying? Correct. So the prosecution says that the defense is... That there's a red herring and that there is no requirement for the government to prove he viewed specific images or videos for it to count. So they're like, oh, no, you don't.

Then the defense argued that the government can't prove that he extracted the contents of the zip files after downloading them via torrent. And if you remember, they specifically argued regarding that DD video. as being more of a recipe correct and like honestly so the prosecution says again this is also a red herring and to be clear quote

These claims serve only to confuse and downplay the severity of his crimes. The only reason Duggar would have downloaded multiple DD torrent files to his computer would be to obtain the CSAM association.

with those files that is after all the only purpose of a torrent file yep and i'm really glad that they specifically addressed that yeah because i mean i thought so many things and that memo was like preposterous but for me that was like the biggest one that stuck out to me yeah where they're like well it's more like a recipe blah blah blah blah it's not the actual whatever it's like why but the intent you don't have it for any other reason yeah but to

It's insanity. To open it and consume it. Yeah. So I'm glad that they addressed that specifically. Oh, and by the way, like I am really giving you clips notes of this just because I don't feel like the need to completely rehash everything. I just kind of wanted to highlight the things that they're like, uh, not happening. And I think that as the sentencing gets closer, I think you're going to. you're gonna be referencing a lot of that stuff yeah so it's good to kind of have a understanding yeah

So the next one is their objections to the pattern of behavior enhancements. And so the defense is trying to claim that this is all based on unreliable reporting from a tabloid magazine. Because they're all stuck on the shit of how...

It originally broke about his... previous molestations of the sisters and the babysitter that originally broke in a magazine but they're trying to now say that that was on you know you're basing this all off of unreliable you know tabloid reporting and prosecution is like uh new it's based on the quote unrebuted testimony of bobby holt which is corroborated by the i love this part ready corroborated by the self-serving testimony of his own father

So I'm just going to go through it kind of like very, very briefly, but like in the pre-trial when they are like finding out what witnesses are actually, actually going to call at trial. They, of course, did Bobby Holtz and then she was actually a trial witness. Correct. And they did also, like, have Jim Bob there. Now, Jim Bob was, you know, when they're talking about all of the... the previous stuff from when he was a teenager like he he he still was taught like

admitting that it happened but suddenly everything was really fuzzy and he just couldn't remember because it's like 20 years ago and oh he's just having a hard time remembering all these things i do not recall yeah and um And at one point, like when they even brought up the magazine, like he got all pissy and he was like, he like started kind of like yelling and he told the judge like, you're going to allow this. Like it was a whole thing. We could probably dive into that at another time.

You usually don't see any emotion from that man. Usually it looks like there's nothing behind those eyes. In that Lego head of his. They ended up not using him as a witness because he was considered an unreliable witness. Volatile. But I love that they specifically... I just love the like... self-serving testimony of his own father. I was like, oh, I just love that. Those little tiny digs. I'm here for it. Yeah, that's such a dig. Let's see.

So at this point, they're kind of done talking about the enhancements, and the talk of the document sort of moves into more general arguments that the defense made, and then those... all those uh abundance of letters that they had so in regards um wait a minute Oh, so they're talking about how the defense like heavily focused in that memo on him, you know, growing up on TV and being criticized.

By the public and, you know, having to live his life. Yeah. Like, you know, oh, this like sob story of what Josh has been through. Right. So in regards to all of that mumbo jumbo, the. The prosecution says, and I have some, I actually want to read some stuff directly to you guys. Just because I feel like the word for word is just good. So. They say these claims only underscore the appropriateness of the government's sentencing recommendation.

Indeed, his supportive family and public-facing and privileged lifestyle make his pattern of criminal conduct all the more baffling. Despite achieving some level of fame through reality television as an adult, he is better known at this point for his behavior outside his family show, including his criminal sexual conduct.

Which like that's what I was saying the last time. I'm like to act like he was like this person that like couldn't walk into a McDonald's without everybody knowing who he was. Correct. It's fucking asinine. Yeah. If he's more known now, still he's not nearly as known as he probably thinks he is. But if at any point he became known after this stuff. So it's like to act like you had this paparazzi lifestyle.

Hey, but amongst the people that are in their faith and their homeschool conference. He was the it man. Yes, he was. So then they go on to say, more importantly, none of those letters meaningfully grapple with his crimes or his sexual proclivities toward prepubescent girls. At least one suggests that, parentheses, enemies. threatened by his, parentheses, quiet display of conservative values, are targeting him while simultaneously advancing his impossible theory that a, parentheses,

An unscrupulous young man framed him. This is just cancel culture. Then he says, as if it's all happenstance, something that has simply befallen him despite his best efforts to avoid it.

That is precisely the problem. While Duggar is apparently continuing to tell those around him that he is the victim of an unscrupulous young man am i saying that it's unscrupulous right yeah i feel like every time i get on here suddenly i doubt everything i'm saying like pronunciations or even a broader conspiracy that the series is irreconcilable

with the straightforward common sense evidence produced at trial. So this whole framing by an unscrupulous young man, we'll talk about this later. Ooh. So moving right along, they go on to say that it's unlikely that he will ever view his conviction as anything other than proof that he needs to be more secretive the next time he engages in this type of conduct. And I agree.

Like, you know, I don't think that there's anything really being like, oh yeah, he's going to do fine now. He's been caught multiple times. Or he learned his lesson. Yeah. And they said it's also equally unlikely that he will ever receive the treatment and accountability needed to prevent him from reoffending. I'm skipping over some stuff. Oh.

This one's funny. They say equally mystifying is Duggar's claim that his situation is akin to the circumstances in which courts have found a reduced sentence appropriate based on acts of charity. This is them completely referencing the whole Beanie Baby guy thing. If you remember in the last episode, they were like, well, the Beanie Baby guy got a lesser sentence. And it's like...

Oh, my God. That's not exactly the ironclad argument that you think it is. They literally say in the documents, end quote, nothing remotely close to those circumstances exists here. Oh, man.

I just loved how, like, I felt like this one was, like, really straightforward. Like, they were just like, oh, we're so done with this shit. We're just, like, laying it all out there. And while Duggar's incarceration will undoubtedly... reverberate through his immediate and extended family that is unfortunately that is unfortunately true in many criminal cases particularly particularly in cases like this one so

You know, there was a lot of talk of how, oh, think of his kids, think of his family. But it's like, you know, every time someone goes away, it affects their family. Yeah. So it's like, Josh Duggar, you're not something special. So does that mean that nobody's going to sweep up the crackers?

Who's going to sweep up the crackers at the house waiting? I know, he needs to be home. He needs to be home. There are crackers to be swept. Okay, so that's kind of it on that. There was more, but I really felt like that was kind of like the important points.

So now... And she was very secretive about it, too. I remember... Usually we try not to talk about episodes or things we took notes before we record. And she came into the room I was in very excited and was like, I got stuff that's new. She had very current things going on. Well, I knew that...

Regardless, I was going to go through this response to the memos. And then I kind of had something else planned. And then last night, stuff started happening. So I was like, oh, pivot, pivot, pivot. So it was time to pivot. So regarding him being the victim of an unscrupulous young man, we're going to talk about that. So, as you can probably imagine, at various points through this entire process, the defense is just kind of like thrown spaghetti to try to see what sticks.

like one example that I just think is kind of funny is that during the trial they brought up they were trying to like bring into like the existence like the the doubt by saying like well you know couldn't the hit the computer at the car lot been you know accessed remotely by someone else and they're like they even asked like

I mean, it could have been someone in Paris, right? Like to one of the experts. So now it became like memes about how like someone in Paris was like, you know, like. Sorry, honey, I didn't finish all the ice cream. It must have been somebody in Paris.

so that was one example but specifically after he was found guilty when they did the request when his like defense put in a request for a new trial after his conviction which I just want to note like Anna his wife she hadn't posted anything on social media made like any comments or anything like that and then one day she just posts on instagram like this just you know it's like white with just like the black text and it says there's more to the story

link in bio and it was a link to the court documents that were him trying to get a new trial because they felt like he deserved a new trial citing specifically that they were not able to call Caleb Williams as a witness, saying that Caleb had access to the car lock computer as well as all the passwords and that they failed to investigate.

anyone besides josh so that was their way of trying to like bring in some like reasonable well you didn't you know these other people are around um you didn't look into anybody else i should get a new trial is basically is what they're getting at Which, do you know anything about Caleb Williams? That's exactly my next point, Tim. Look at you. Real quick before you start, the reason why I asked as a completely ignorant bystander.

to what's happening here uh it's that thing of like how long did this person work for them you know i'm assuming do they not talk to him and they're just gonna like try to throw the blame of this federal case on this like

Poor guy that just happened to work at the lot. You know, I'm curious. I'm at the edge of my seat here. So literally my next thing that I have written down is who is Caleb Williams? So Caleb is, um, his family, they're family friends. Um, in fact, his mom is really close to Michelle and she's actually posted like a couple of times, like since the trial being like, put yourself in Michelle's shoes and like stuff like that.

so he worked it uh josh's car lot is what josh says and but the only thing though is the reason that caleb does it doesn't work is because um may 11th was the day that the linux partition was like installed And Caleb was able to provide an Apple Store receipt to the police that show that he was at an Apple Store in St. Louis. And he says that he was driving to Illinois to visit his grandparents.

There are texts of like him texting his grandparents along the way, like, you know, kind of like keeping them updated. And his cell phone was pinging the entire way that he's going. And then there's photo proof of him with his family on the night of the 11th. So that was the day that that partition was installed. And then those next two days after that is when the material was like downloaded or, you know, not downloaded if you're, you know, Josh's defense.

So someone out there may correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure. But as far as I know, Caleb has not publicly talked about any of this. until last night so okay so that was so that's why like i literally went into tim and i'm like i have to make a change um let me pull up My text messages, sorry. Not text. I actually have the twats right in front of me.

Okay, so the funny part is, so they're tweets. So he actually has them numbered like one of two, you know, one of one, or, you know, one of three. But I literally read it as one third at first. So it's... One of three, my heart goes out to Anna is how it starts. And I'm all one third of my heart goes out to Anna. I'm like, oh, he only feels a third sad for her. Okay. So anyways, my heart goes out to Anna.

I've told her I'm praying for her. She is in a gut-wrenching position that I do not envy. My personal opinion, she has been convinced that I did it. The saddest part of that is her sitting in the courtroom and seeing a mountain of evidence to the contrary and seemingly ignoring it. I knew Josh was being investigated for CSAM for almost a year and a half and kept the secret. My understanding is they did not even share it with most of their kids. Of course they didn't. Of course not.

If they hadn't tried to frame me I probably wouldn't have said anything. Damn. I loved Josh like a brother. I thought he had reformed. He needs therapy and help. The absolute lack of responsibility and constant blame tactics sealed my opinion that he was not framed. They were telling people in the circles that I did it. That's so bad.

And then, like, some people were asking some questions. And at one point he just said, yes, I knew and know the Duggars. Yes, I was very close to many members of the family. There is still periodic contact. It was painful to be accused by Josh, Anna, and other members of the family, as well as some of their friends, of outlandish claims of hacking.

And then, like, one person asked, have any of them reached out to you, apologized, or expressed regret over this tactic? He said, if you're referring to Josh, Anna, or Jim Bob, no. So. That is what the latest tea is on what he's put out there. And he also did say at one point, I did not work as an employee of the Duggars ever. Everything was. Project by project and check or cash. Never payroll. I don't recall any tax forms.

coming from josh either um as far as what i've read it sounds like he says he has passwords because like multiple brothers have businesses and there's other car lots and he's saying that they paid him to do like random work and sometimes like social media work and stuff so that's why he's saying he has like the password

some things but um yeah so more to that let me tell you a little background about mr caleb williams oh man i'm holding all my questions till the end So November 26, 2018, Caleb was arrested in Illinois on two felony counts of aggravated sexual abuse. Ooh. I didn't see that one coming. I had him.

pegged as like somebody good like the good guy screwed damn so these counts were one was penetrating a minor that was older than 13 but younger than 17 and then the second but they were at least five years younger than him So he ended up pleading guilty, and then January 22nd of 2020, he was sentenced to one felony count of aggravated criminal sexual abuse.

He served a whole whopping 62 days in jail while being on work release. So it's not like he really got the book thrown on him that hard. Yeah. um after that he had 18 months of probation and he's currently a registered sex offender okay so what's your question who's the victim maybe Yeah. I do think it's fascinating that he's like, I loved him like a brother. And it's like, well...

Obviously the birds of a feather flock together. For real. I think that's why I wanted to talk about this is like how much of this shit goes on in the circle. That's why I felt like. Yeah. And then who was it? The state trooper? Yeah. Or, you know, that was like, he learned his lesson. And Tim, you don't even know the things I know that we will get to someday. Hey, I thought I told you that.

Okay, so who was this victim? So she was a teenage girl who was feeling sick. So her mom took her to the doctor, and they found out she was pregnant. And the girl told the mom that, you know, Caleb was a father. So the mom filed an emergency order of protection. So and at the time of this, the girl was 16 and he was 23. Okay. But the thing about it, though, is so Caleb has says that they were in an arranged courtship because, you know, they're in this religion that does.

courtships and all you know and they do have some arrangement and like i want to see i had another quote from him he said yes i am on the so registry that does not mean i have deviant um i don't even know what the word he's saying is I have no idea. Bad decisions, yes. Since it's experience, I have realized how prevalent abuse is. I am now a mandated reporter in my state. I want to be a part of the solution. When you're a mandated reporter...

That actual term refers to like child abuse and like a teacher is like a mandated reporter. I think he messed up in that. I think he means that he's because he wouldn't be allowed to like work in the job like that. So I think he must be referring to himself being on the registry and is like somehow fucked that all up. Yeah. Like maybe he has to tell them. I don't know. I heard mandated reporter and I thought, OK, does that mean.

Does that mean he has to inform him of things? I don't know. Yeah. But like mandated reporter usually refers to like a person who sees abuse and end up in a position that is supposed to report. So I don't know. But.

And then he went on to talk about, have you ever heard of subculture? I'm not even the same person I was three years ago. I grew up hearing about people in my family being set up for marriage and even being signed for. When I was told that it was happening and that it was in God's will, I followed and went with it.

strongly do you understand how hard it is to leave home in this sect sect and the belief systems vary widely even in the movement i am a christian try to follow the bible i do not follow a movement it's a different world trying to place your perspective on my life will never work so caleb is basically just saying that he and this girl were in an arranged courtship and um

He just says that, you know, now that was a bad decision. But either way, even if they were in the courtship, obviously premarital sex is very looked down upon in this group. They don't even kiss until they get married. So obviously this is like huge scandal. So like I said, he's on the registry now. And the interesting part is he has since filed for custody of partial custody of that child.

And apparently he's never paid any child support. The girl... says yes he is the father but like no i don't want him to have any custody yeah and he should be paying me child support and as far as i know like that was filed like kind of like this time last year i think i don't know of any updates i don't think he has any form of custody okay

Probably for the best. Yeah. So, you know, he's definitely trying to explain away it, not trying to make it sound like statutory rape, but he was seven years older than her. And from the... things I could see I think it started they started having sex when she was 14 14 or 15 so it's like you were over 20 years old and this girl's 14 you know so it's statutory rape yeah

Okay, so that kind of sums up on that. I just think it's funny how these things get woven together. So this document comes out where they specifically reference... josh having this like crazy theory you know of being framed and then you know and then caleb comes out swinging so i was like you have to you just have to do it like you have to man i my opinion changed to caleb real fast yeah at first you're like oh

Yeah, I was like, oh, somebody who's been screwed by the Duggars. Yeah, they kind of turned on him. Yeah. Okay, so to close this episode out. I just wanted to, so we are at the point of recording. We're two days away from sentencing. Hopefully when this is posted, we're one day away from sentencing. So I just kind of want to prepare ourselves mentally for this because obviously the range here is five to 20 years. As much as I'd love him to get the max, it's not going to happen.

um max is really reserved for repeat offenders and more so people that like as much as we talked about last time that it's just because it's not direct abuse it's still abuse yeah but stuff like that that's why he's not gonna get the full 20 because he's not repeat and it's not direct unfortunately so I would be happy with it I would love for more but I am hoping for just at least 10

Yeah, that's the number that was in my head. Some people are saying be realistically prepared for somewhere between 7 and 10. But if he got 10, I'll feel like somewhat of justice is served because at least his youngest will be... you know at least 10 you know just like just getting his kids as old as possible without him i to me is the goal the longer he can be away from his children while they're growing up to me is just better yeah so that's the ultimate goal i think here

So are you predicting 10? I'm predicting 10. I'm going to say just because I don't have a lot of faith in some of the justice system right now, I'm going to say it's going to be 5 to 7. Really? Okay. I feel like it's going to come in a lot lower. Obviously, the Duggars don't have the support of a TV station anymore or anything like that, but I still feel like they can kind of...

They can kind of afford or they can get help from people in their community that would be willing to, you know, throw some some kind of legal energy into it. And I feel like it'll be about five to seven. I realistically think it'll probably be like the seven, but I'm hoping for 10. And lastly, pay attention to our socials because I'm going to be making a special sentencing cocktail. Sentencing.

cocktail i've was kind of racking my brain for a little bit and i think i've come up with something i'm pretty excited about so go on instagram to digging up the duggars pod and the kind of fun idea i had behind it was hopefully you know We're all in different time zones when this is going to happen. Some people are going to be at work. But I just think it would be kind of fun whenever you have the chance to cheers to his sentencing.

Get out a cocktail or drink of your choice, whether it's alcoholic or not. And cheers to this bastard getting his time finally. And tag us in your story or your photo and we'll share it. Yeah. Pickle juice on the rocks. Yeah, so we will collectively be cheersing each other is kind of the idea I have in mind to our fellow Duggar snarkers. All right. I think that sums up episode four.

Next time we'll be talking to you, Josh Duggar will have been sentenced. So it's kind of funny to think that. Yeah, we're getting into... Some obviously very big current events with our subject matter. So as always, we are on anywhere where you get your podcast fix. We are on Spotify. Apple podcast is starting to gain some steam. Yeah, it's catching up to Spotify. That's for sure.

Yeah, so it's kind of nice to start seeing some traction in there because that's where I usually listen to podcasts on. Follow us on the socials. Digging up the Duggar pod. Digging up the Duggars pod. And then we have an email, digging up the Duggars at Gmail. And yeah, that's kind of it. Absolutely. Love to hear from you guys. And please cheers us on sentencing day. Love to see it. We will see you guys next week. Signing out.