Episode 25 - It's Not, like, Regular Hatred, its Hip Hatred

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Visit lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe that?

We are now on episode 25. That feels like a big number. It is a weird big number. 25. So this makes it the Israel episode. This is a Dillard. This is the first. Like the store, Dillard's. Close. That's the only time I've ever heard Dillard. This is the first non-Duggar grandchild. This is Jill's oldest. Okay. So Israel. So she's Jill Dillard. Yes. I never really stopped to think about it, but yes. That's kind of funny. Well, before we actually get into the actual recapping of the episode.

We do have a little housekeeping, a little news to address. So, it's regarding Ginger's book. So it was a couple weeks ago on October 18th that the title, cover, and description of a book written by Ginger came out on Amazon. And it's called Becoming Free Indeed. My Story of Disentangling Faith from Fear. Which, first of all, funny nod to the Free Ginger movement. So it is kind of funny that she did that. Kind of like a little wink.

but um i posted about it that day and i was saying how like i was just curious about it and you know like i was like oh it sounds like kind of like a fuck you to right um jim bob and michelle and we got some comments they were like don't get too excited i mean it's not like she's gonna blast her parents and like i never thought that's what she was gonna do like i never was like

oh yeah she's gonna fucking mop the floor with that you know like i knew it would never be that uh but my enjoyment just from initially even seeing news of the book was that like the fact that she's even saying anything against anything that had to do with her upbringing will just make jim bob's fucking head explode right yeah so it's like she doesn't have to call them out directly for it to be enough to like piss off an egomaniac

like lego like you know yeah so in the description it does specifically speak out against bill gothard's teachings and um like who brought her into bill gother's teachings you know so it's like she doesn't even have to specifically say her parents or i was like oh this alone is enough just to you know it feels like there's a lot of veiled uh fuck you in this for certain

For certain things. And we'll see going forward. But she also mentions in the description how it was a brother-in-law from outside their tight-knit circle. Mm-hmm.

um as being the first to open her eyes to the idea that some of the things that they've taught and always followed were not actually like biblical okay um likely referring to ben which is jess's husband okay so jess's husband he's a calvinist which is not good in boob's world so i think i just love it even more because you know that this is boob like having a fucking tantrum that he let in these insiders i mean he let these outsiders inside his circle and i'm sure he's

in his head that's what's blowing up his family or making these kids or his kids turn away from what he's taught that you know or whatever so i'm like that alone i just like i i'm here for that i enjoy it So, yeah, it's like I never thought it would be this smear campaign against her parents. But, you know, like still a pretty big step for her to even come out and say anything about IBLP.

so she had up to this point hadn't actually addressed it it was just you could see this on amazon and stuff right but then today she ended up dropped oh and i we were gonna um i was gonna bring it up on the podcast but this happened originally The day after we'd recorded. We hadn't released the episode yet. But then.

it happened like the very next day yeah and then that next week is when we didn't record and then i was just like and then i just kind of like let it go but then today ginger dropped a four minute youtube video right about the book Which I actually had Tim watch. I don't keep him totally up to date. With like. All the recent goings. You know all the current goings on. If you will. But I did send him this video to watch. And.

She's very robotic and it's kind of awkward. I actually feel like the... the little like teaser on the on Instagram almost feels worse than the full video I don't know just because it's so short maybe it seems worse to me but she's a little bit robotic a little bit awkward hard to tell if it's just because she's nervous or if she's actually like because she is kind of like

i don't know kind of dropping this bomb i guess in a way not really but or if she's trying to play the role of like this is serious because the whole thing is called like the hardest thing i've ever done or something like that she mentions in that video that like

you know she's written other things and this definitely kind of took more out of her like it felt like it took more yeah she says like more emotionally exhausting yeah which i get like i i feel like she was also trying to play the tightrope between completely smearing her upbringing and her father, but still trying to get her point across. You know what I mean? I feel like there was a lot of, like, mental gymnastics she had to do to...

to put something out. Then I think she was also at a time crunch because towards the end of it, you kept seeing her like glance to the left, like multiple times. I think she was looking, I think they were trying to keep her on track timing wise too. But she does specifically mention it's not a tell-all of her family. So I'm sure this was to shut up, you know, kind of...

put that to rest for all the people who were hoping it was that for people that have snark podcast. Yeah. And also some family that's probably freaking out. So it was probably just like, that's not what the, I just think it was probably like to also kind of ease some anxieties that she probably has going into it.

I mean, this book is still going to be preachy as hell. It's just going to be a new flavor of preachy because she specifically talks about how when she first thought of this was going to Big Sandy with Jeremy. after they were married and like seeing some people she went, always went with growing up and then some not being there and a bunch of them finding out that they, you know, left Christianity entirely. So it was her like saying that she was starting to figure all that, like kind of.

pull away and stuff like that but then she her story is not leaving christianity um and so she does this whole thing about if you still want to have a relationship with jesus she says jesus yeah i've noticed that but um Yeah, so it's definitely still going to be preachy. It's just going to be, like I said, a different flavor. What she's in now gets rid of the...

What I always call like the freak show circus aspect of things. But a lot of the core hateful, you know, just like. It's still the same. Yeah, it's still the same. So now she's just the mega church style. In sneakers and shorts and coffee and hamburgers. So it's a cool hip level of hateful Christian. It's hip hatred. It's hip hatred. That's what it is. Hip bigots.

And also, just the final thing I just kind of want to mention is that the timing of it is interesting because this is releasing at the end of January in 2023, which... An IBLP documentary that has been in the works for a while. Last we heard, I haven't heard any updates. They had said end of this year or early.

2023 i'm thinking if we haven't heard anything right now it's probably not coming out by the end of this year right but i think it's just really good timing for her because she can kind of get ahead of that to try to separate herself from iblp even more But also the timing coincides with not only is great for her because not only separating herself from IBLP, but think of all the attention that documentary is going to get, which will drive.

interest in the subject matter into it and then into her book which is about like leaving it she specifically talks about IVLP and um yeah it'll just get her more money and as we learned recently like she is their main breadwinner Yeah. And it's also going into the Christmas season. So with this idea of exceptionalism, I feel like that would be a good gift book of people that are in her...

Joel Osteen. But it doesn't come out until January. Oh, I thought it came out right before Christmas. No, January. End of January. Because I was going to say if it's... Going into Christmas, it's brilliant because it would be like all the people that are involved in that religion would be giving that book to each other to be like, you might like this story. She came from this, but she found out that our way is the right way.

So yeah, she's just going to be selling Calvinism in it now as opposed to what she was in. I mean, I love Calvin and Hobbes. I don't know if I would structure my life around Calvin and Hobbes, but I'm here for it.

You know, but Jeremy says it's okay. So that's what they're doing now. But like I was saying, she's the main breadwinner. Jeremy's pastoring is... he does it for free and he's still in school now he's he just graduated he's back in school again for his master's so yeah so i think that this is uh kind of two birds one stone for her separate and make some money all at the same time so off of that attention

Whitney showed me a YouTube video of a cooking thing with her. Oh, yeah. Ginger's Kitchen. And you can just feel that it's so much like... The joke is that suburban moms go to multi-level marketing, and that's what they push. I feel like people of her age that have some semblance of money already...

are going to do things like this. I'm going to have a vlog. I'm going to do a YouTube channel. I'm going to, you know. Yeah, it's very fitting. Yeah. Okay, so that was some lengthy news, more than we normally give, but just wanted to talk about. that since it just dropped today and she's finally addressed it herself all right you ready to actually talk about the episode yep that was the news

I don't watch the news. If you guys remember the apparently kid, he's getting interviewed. He's just... adorable little redhead child and he's getting interviewed at like an amusement park and they're asking him what he thought of the ride and they like he like takes the microphone out of the lady's hand and starts talking apparently well apparently every every line starts with apparently i don't

watch the news anyways so episode 25 this one is Duggars on a Mission and it also premiered February 17th 2009 if you notice like that was last week's date

This was in a time period when they were showing two episodes per night. Ooh. So anyways, it starts with Pess talking about how it's their third day there. Oh, I mean. uh spoiler if i didn't already they're still in el salvador if we didn't figure that out from doggers on a mission yeah so it's their third day there and they're headed to another orphanage slash daycare and

This episode, I don't want to say it's pest heavy because he's not like a main character or anything. But just last episode, he and Anna were very much in the background. And he's just a little bit more prevalent this time. Not Anna. She's still background. But yeah. Pest is just around a little bit more, so it's ugh. They're trying to see if they could get that spin-off. So, before they get to the orphanage, it flashes to Cinder Janna and Michelle back at home.

And Jana says that it's actually been pretty easy, you know, handling all the kids. And Michelle says, these little guys have been good helpers. So it's not been terrible for them, I guess. I like how Jana said, Mom and I have been doing things. I'm like, oh, honey. Oh, yeah. You've been doing it yourself. Yep. So now they're at the orphanage, and we get a little bit more clarification on this because earlier it was called both an orphanage and a daycare.

And I guess what it is, is that these kids that are there during the day, they rarely have both a mother and a father. And in some cases, they're even being cared for by like family members and friends. So they're kind of considered... So it's like a daycare for orphaned or single parent children, basically. And usually, sadly, the meal that they get there during the day is usually the only meal that they'll get in a day. So it's...

It's a really good resource for these families. They're number one having their kid watched over. And this is, I guess, one of the worst areas of town they kind of made it sound like. And then they're also getting their meal for the day. So they bring lots of food and other essentials to donate to the orphanage. And they even brought some pinatas for the kids. Yep. So Lego hair being the human incarnation of a buzzkill.

that he is is really fucking annoying during the entire thing um because like number one these kids are kids and it's a pinata and that's exciting right and it's like number two These kids live in extreme poverty. I don't think it's that often that they get access to a pinata, if ever. And he just can't let the kids fucking just enjoy the moment without butting in. And he's like hovering over them. Did you notice the hover?

He's like hovering and he's really not a fan of the selfish pinata behavior because he's telling the kids.

i didn't even make that connection yeah he's not well like you know the kids are like starting to go after like the candy and stuff and like and at different points they show him um tell the kids back oh out of the way oh yep and i do like the fact like lining it up to this um in the cold open you never make any comments about the cold open and i always comment on the cold open because we see it later i think that's why i don't but they they alluded to the fact that like

Everybody throws shade at Jim Bob about his horrible, horrible Spanish. So this is kind of the first part that shows up in the episode. Yeah, I don't talk about the cold open because we literally end up seeing all of those things later. So that's why. Do you want me to start referencing? No, I don't. It sets the stage. Okay.

So he's saying back O out of the way O, which I think is funny because last episode, you remember how I was saying how I kept waiting for him to just add an O onto the end of things like Bino. And at the time I was kind of disappointed. But here we go. Asking ye shall receive. We got it this episode. And this is where, yeah, so Boob is getting roasted for the way he speaks. By everybody. Yes. There's a worker.

there that says you know he needs to work on his spanish and then jessa says he thinks if he talks slow enough or kind of has their ex accent and then she goes my name is jim bob like she says like even her accent's not even like yep but so jessa is kind of roasting him um and then boob says how he saw alto

on the stop signs right is that and um so he said he keeps saying that to the kids during the pinata to try to get them to stop because you know he saw that on the stop sign so he's all alto alto backo Back-o out of the way-o. So then Mike Schott says, God help him. and this comes after earlier when mike was saying how seeing 30 gringos traveling around in the back of a truck yelling hola hola being the only word that basically any of them know and then he says

And I don't even think Jim Bob knows that one. Yep. So no shortage of roasting of boob. And I love it. And I didn't write this down, but did you notice when they were in the truck? How all the girls that are wearing their SOS Ministries shirts are doing the like cool girl tie in the back. No, I did not. Like nowadays it would be to tie it to the side or the front.

back then it was like you took a big t-shirt and you like tied it in the back and i was like oh so it's a little more form-fitting yeah and then there's also another family that's doing this with them they mentioned it last episode that there was another big family that came at the same time. Did they say family? I just remember them saying the other people. I thought they said family, but...

Obviously, they didn't want to be on TV at all because they never talked to any of them. Very rarely do you see them in the background of shots. So it is funny that you're like, they didn't bring that many people. Well, it's because there's this whole other group that they're not even showing really. So.

So next scene they're headed to visit another family in a very remote area. So of course the girls they grab their flips and they hit the dirty trails once again. Gotta hit those dirt trails and those sandals. Yep. So this particular family that they're going to see, the SOS Ministries, have bought them items for their home previously. And so it's just like chairs and bowls and some other like supplies and stuff.

And they end up just kind of like showing off that this guy, like the father, has an audible Bible device. Because they previously mentioned that the father is illiterate.

and wants to get an education for his daughters and they don't specifically say that they gave him the device but if they gave them bowls and chairs i doubt these people were getting like bible recordings on their own of course so this is definitely like the insert the christianity part of like the here listen to this bible yeah every once in a while the show in like the bottom left has the little like um pop-up

that gives you some sort of fact yeah about kind of like things that are going on and the thing that popped him in this one was that it was right after the ministries guy said that the average family uses like $60 a month at the most for all the stuff that they have yeah and then a thing popped up that said the average for the whole orphanage

It was for feeding all those kids at that orphanage. That's what it was. And one of the pop-ups said the average family uses $60 for gym membership every month. And I thought that was wild because looking back to like me growing up, I didn't know anybody that had a gym membership. So this is 2008. But still like.

I knew nobody. I mean, neither did I, but I guess I thought I was. I don't know. Maybe we just weren't yuppie enough. I guess. Because it's not like my family or anybody that we knew was working out at home. Yeah.

you know so i just thought that was it was random so now it's their fourth day and they're getting ready to throw a christmas party and they're in a village that eight years prior um they suffered a huge loss from an earthquake where 99 out of 100 of the homes in the village were completely destroyed. That's a lot. Boob's going to boob, and he's trying to introduce himself to people.

in his like jimblish because i don't even know what you want to call it because it's not spanglish it's not even english like no so he's speaking jimblish how do you fail in both languages right And Mike roasts him yet again saying, we're still working on this dear friend's Spanish. We're trying. We've improved from back-o. So it was pretty funny. I do like the thing.

I like the fact that they're roasting him. But then I'm also like, how many times have you done this? Because he talks about how they've done this for a long time. Yeah. That they come down here and do this. So at no point in those three years could you learn two damn words in the language. No. Jim, boob can't be bothered.

I guarantee you he would complain about immigrants not learning English. A fucking thousand percent. Yeah. But you know, the rules don't apply when you're coming down to save the poor souls and motivate them. Remember, motivate the poor people. um let's see okay so next they're shown calling baby canon back at home and he's telling her where they're at and she says

Like he's just saying like they're at whatever Esperanza, like whatever it is. I don't remember the name of it exactly. And she goes, you've learned Spanish. Yes, he's completely fluent in Spanish. He says Esperanza or whatever it is. And she's like, you learned Spanish. He doesn't even say it.

right like he because the family's like around him when he's on the cell phone and he was like where uh where are we and he like mumbles through the word and like two of the older kids look at him and are like No, it's like they're literally Kimani. Oh, that man. But when they hear Michelle say that, they're all like laughing and whatever.

He tells them that they're planning for 260 kids to show up at the party that day. And they even talk about the weather a little bit, which I'm just going to grace you guys with. Apparently it's 85 degrees in El Salvador, but in the 40s back in Arkansas. And Michelle says it's so windy it even blew over the entire nativity scene. Disaster at the Tater Tot Mansion.

What can they do without the men folk to pick the nativity back up? Okay, so now we're just watching them prepare for the party. They're assembling gift bags and they're pumping up soccer balls and all that stuff.

Then the party begins and they end up having crafts for the kids and even a trampoline. The kids look like they are having a lot of fun, so it is nice to see. They look like they're really, really enjoying themselves. I want to point out one thing in this scene. Go for it. I think the fact that Pest was this close to a bunch of orphanages is terrifying. But he did learn a Spanish phrase that I guarantee you Pest...

Paco out of the wayo? No, it wasn't Paco out of the wayo. It wasn't grande bag of beans, big old bag. It was kind of like God bless you in Spanish. Dios te vendiga. As they were starting to hand certain things out, he says it to a kid. And I was like... Come on, when Pest can learn three words in Spanish. Come on, Lego hair. Pest was saying Feliz Navidad as he handed out all the bags. So Pest can learn five words in Spanish.

police mommy dog police mommy dog yep um oh there was a kid that we knew that saying it like that anyways so yeah i didn't catch that he did that so he So what's the phrase again? God bless? Dios te bendiga. Which means what? Say it again. Kind of like God bless you or God protect you. So that's the only thing. He won't learn actual things to them, but he's like, oh, well, if I can say God. I got to throw God in there somewhere. Yeah. That seems typical.

so they're also taking photos of the children and their families for them to be able to take home which is nice like they're taking a picture and they're putting in like one of those like little cardboard kind of like sleeve frames type things and Which is nice because it's something that I'm sure they don't normally get to have.

And they even said that because this is their third year, like Josh was saying this, but he was saying that just as they've come back year after year, when they go and visit some of the families, they see it displayed in their house because it's like the only picture that they have. Yeah. And then they end up presenting the gifts to the kids by calling them up by their name to receive their gifts. And...

The episode ends with Jim Bob saying, I love the people in El Salvador. They are so precious. They have such tender hearts. But he also says, i mean which number one to me that doesn't feel very genuine i just don't like when people are just like i just love like i feel like when it's that general i mean could someone say it can i don't know it just doesn't feel that sincere is all i'm getting at like does it feel sincere to you

No, not at all. Does it feel sincere? But most things that Lego hair does don't feel sincere to me. And calling like all these people like precious, like they're fucking children. Like I just don't, it's, I'm like. Your word choice is fucking awful. I wanted to say something to you about what you're about to read compared to our last episode. But can I interject with a couple things before we move on? Yeah.

Just because I feel like that last statement is going to cause a lot of conversation. I did like the... The photo thing, I thought that was thoughtful. And like you said, something that they're not going to get. A small point of ingenuity, which I appreciate. They bought a bunch of soccer balls. to take to the kids knowing that they like playing soccer but they couldn't figure out how to get them there without having this giant massive stuff so what they did was they bought a pump

And they deflated all of the soccer balls. So then they nested into each other and it took up less space. I thought that was pretty ingenuous. I'll give them that. So then they were pumping them up.

For the party again, yeah. That's correct. So I thought that was cool that they were like, okay, I'll give credit where credit is due. There was a really awkward side hug with Lego hair and this... woman like just this woman that obviously was like at the party with a bunch of the other people and he was like awkwardly side hugging her and she was like kind of smiling

And then he doesn't stop and she's just like, very happy. And he like nods like, stop awkwardly side hugging the women, man. I don't remember this at all. And then I have a Michelle thing, but I want us to talk about the... the way they close out the episode. So go ahead and finish your statement. So after he talks about them being precious and he loves them with their tender hearts and all.

He also says, I wouldn't be surprised if several of our children come here to do mission work for years to come, or we may even... Or we may, even us, or maybe some of our family members may end up adopting some of these children and trying to invest in their lives. I facepalmed so hard.

Because of two things. In the last episode, they talked about how it takes like five, six years just to get through the adoption process. Yeah. And then we obviously went over... what their religion believes about adopted children it's not an option you asshole well which is it is interesting though because you'll see going forward a lot there's a ton like

Once it gets to the counting on days, a ton of the kids are like, oh, we might be interested in adoption. Has anybody adopted? No, nobody has. And there are other IBLP families like the Bates, like Kelly Bates has like an adopted sister.

from another country like everything like that she's much younger too like her parents adopted her like later but like and i've seen kelly bates like say to like people online being like hey this is what you know iblp says about adoption she's just like you know we we believe in it and everybody's in charge of you know responsible for their own sin blah blah blah so there are do seem to be ibl people iblp people that seem to like

not be against adoption but i i can't tell if you know with the duggars is it sound like the right thing to say and they don't mean it at all or is it one of those things where they're like no no we really do want to adopt but then like you know people say a lot of shit that they never do is it just a classic thing where they actually they kind of do want to but they're never gonna fucking do it or do they actually do they actually even believe in it not believe in it and then don't want to

and know that they're not going to carry through but it sounds you know what i mean like yeah you could take it a bunch of different ways right so but you'll see in the future that like they talk about adoption quite a bit it just made me it because it was so fresh i i facepalmed real hard um Yeah. I have a couple notes. Just some offhand things. There's a point where they're talking to the family with the gentleman with the talk Bible. Oh, yeah.

whatever they call that, they're talking to the mother and they ask the mother, how many kids do you have? And she said, I have two daughters. And then the ministry guy points at Lego hair and says he has 18. And she looks like, I think when you see them and they're at the mall or they're at these different places when they were in New York City and people are like, wow, you have so many kids. It's kind of that, like you say, kind of that like.

freak show aspect of it this lady looked kind of horrified and i literally wrote she didn't believe him Because in her paradigm, that's so irresponsible. Yeah. You would never be able to support that many children in the... in the circumstances in which they're growing up in. So it's not that it's like, oh, wow, how do you do the laundry? In her head, she's like, you're irresponsible.

And then we've brought up a couple times recently about like exceptionalism, about how like they have it all understood and like their ways the right way and kind of the way that they bring those things up kind of passive aggressively. that baby canon said when she was on like a talking head was um oh something along the lines of we like it's really important to

to see how other people live. And then the quote that I took was, most of the rest of all the world has no running water and they live with dirt floors. I'm like, that's... It's like most of the rest of what everybody outside of the United States. Outside of Arkansas. Right. Everybody outside of the U.S. must be tree people and they live up in tree houses. Yeah. Because there's no way that they have running water.

pinged and i didn't write it down but i remember thinking the same thing like the most of the world like yeah which we get it Everybody understands that there's parts of the world that do not have running water, that live in poverty. Completely understand. But the idea that most of the world is that way is a little backwards.

Oh, Michelle. And I don't think it has anything to do with like those places. I think it has everything to do with like, nope, everything we have is the best version of what it can be. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep. So. Which is actually kind of funny because it kind of that reminds me for a split second of one of the things that when I listened to the video.

the podcast and like the YouTube of Josh McDonald when he talks about like Americans have this idea of like everything about America is the best ever and that's not always the case and so I feel like it almost plays into that it's like well everybody else must have it absolutely shitty like yeah yeah yeah anything else nope all right it wasn't um

It wasn't too much, which I was actually pretty happy for. I was like, that's fine. Just easy breezy second half of this. I think we got the like the more disgusting end of like the more the things that were really pissed me off it. jim bob said were last episode this one i was just like he's just a fucking buffoon back oh away oh like it's just yeah anyways so that's it take a little break we'll be right back with a deep dive So today's deep dive is all about Esther Keller, now Schrader.

I chose her for this episode particularly because her life story is steeped in missionary work. And believe me, missionary work is with quotations here. So I figured it was fitting because we're talking about missionary work.

that's a big part of esther's life okay so for the sources for today um it's some reddit posts oh a reddit post by a particular user an ama that one of anna's childhood friend the schrader's own facebook and old website as well as some free ginger posts okay so of course we know a little bit about esther's background

In the Keller family because of deep dive episode number eight. So we kind of know her family dynamic and background and history. It's all kind of covered there. But Esther is the oldest Keller child born on May 9th of 1981.

And in her bio on their old website, we really don't learn much about her. You said that was the one with the big blonde curls that was doing Anna's hair? No, that's Rebecca. That's the one that was married to Josh. Okay. This is... an older the oldest sister we've never really seen she was obviously at the wedding but it wasn't a big okay like thing or whatever so um we don't learn too much about her in the bio she talks of her convictions and testimony

her work in detention centers with pa keller and her love of teaching children in the junior church that's about it okay nothing really about her because you know i guess it's not too too surprising though because you know women are nothing but their faith their husbands and their children so you know what else do they have yeah women don't have a whole lot of identity in this yeah so i guess it's not that shocking sect um so getting ahead

You know, spoiler alert, she eventually marries John Schrader. Spoiler. Okay. So the childhood friend of Anna that did the AMA from just a couple of weeks ago said regarding John. quote, if you think Josh is bad, dot, dot, dot, dot, which that says a lot. If you're saying that. compare if you think josh is but you're i mean without saying it it's all it's saying it you know it's one of those type situations so on that note let's talk a little bit about john's background

And like Esther, John is also the oldest child, but his parents had a fucking Bush League Five kids, whereas Esther was the oldest of eight. Still no Duggar numbers, but you know, eight is more than five. It's like they're not even trying. Five is like my Mormon family. Like all my cousins, like they had a lot of fivers. We had a Quentin. We had a Quentin because he was the, get it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, Quentin. Quentin is also a very Mormon name.

Okay, so John was born June 29th, 1977. And John's father, Rick, was and is a Baptist pastor who planted as a... Their vernacular, their wording. Okay. Planted a church in Katy, Texas. You got to water it. You got to till the land. Yep. Make sure your seeds are correct. Put shit on it. Yep.

there you go fill it with shit yep yep sounds about right so he talks of becoming so this is john now he talks about becoming saved at the young age of five and he actually tells the story of how like you know he knew he wanted to before i'm like who the fuck knows before like five like it's just so ridiculous it's so fucking preposterous like i think the whole like getting baptized at eight in the mormon church is in fucking sanity and i could go on about that for forever and then i

came from a catholic family so she's like baptizing infants is insanity to me like oh that they've done so much But he talks about how he previously wanted to be baptized, but his dad was just like, no, you need to make sure you're sure. You're a fucking, like, what, four-year-old? Like, this is crazy.

But he just talks about how this one day he was just so sure he was ready. And his dad was like out somewhere, something with pastoring or whatever. And he tells his mom and she's like, no, dad's not going to be home until tomorrow. So he talks about being afraid to go to sleep.

for fear of being condemned to hell if he died overnight and like so to me it just goes like this is what we're doing to five-year-old children and by we i don't mean me but this is what we're doing to children And you've specifically brought up in your upbringing that you remember moments of great anxiety and emotional anguish as a kid caused by your...

religious upbringing yeah you know so it's like to hear things like that i'm just like what what a thing to be thinking of in kindergarten you know i better not die tonight before i tell my dad i'm ready to be baptized so anyways

I think this is probably the one time in this entire thing that I have some sympathy for John Schrader. Kind of ends after he's five. So then he became the church pianist at a... very young age and he went on to serve at several like mission trips and things like that and as he gets older he ends up getting his master's degree in biblical studies in 2001 which is just what we need you know

More people getting those theological degrees. Yep. We need more of that. He then says, quote, Shortly after I graduated, the Lord brought me my wife.

So let's talk about how the Lord brought him, his wife. So a year ago, a Reddit user posted about how John and Esther met. So this person... their connection here is that her grandparents attended Rick Schrader's church in Katy, Texas. And she would go there for a few weeks every summer to visit. And like her aunt was like her same age. So like.

There was like one of those situations. So she would go there and like hang out with her aunt and stay with her grandparents for the summer. So in turn, of course, being there, she ended up attending several church services. Yeah. She said that Esther took care of the nursery.

kids during like the big church type thing but then she also taught the teen girls on their sunday school classes which is how she remembers esther because she was a young teen at the time okay um she just talks about how like she remembers esther as being like really sweet and

like making them like having tea parties and like making herbal mint tea and them having the she was like i know it sounds really like infantile but she's like that whole sect of like girl you're very like anne of green gables so like having tea is like very cool yeah So anyways, so that's just kind of like her memories of Esther. But then she recalls a sermon being given by Rick and John at the church, estimating to be probably 2005 or 2006.

That's about waiting on God's plan for marriage. And then they go into how God brought Esther into John's life to be his help meat. You know, I love that word. Everything about that word is gross. So apparently at some point, John became rebellious. What? But in the beginning, they kind of denim skirt around what that actually means.

But they do say that he was chasing after worldly sinful things. But the one thing that they do specify that he did was, are you ready for it? It's a good thing I'm sitting down. John was dating girls. Not courting, he was dating. So should we just like electric chair him now? It probably would have turned out better for Esther. Thank you.

so those if if that's not the only thing i'm curious what the other things are but the way they are that probably is it who knows like i have no idea i mean it could be worse he could be a fucking pest and be doing who knows but that's the only part that they got like super specific about Wow. So suddenly, I guess, John decided that he wasn't about this rebellious life anymore. And he turned back to God. He realized he didn't actually like any of these girls and only wanted one thing from them.

Sex. Well, it's actually really funny because the person who wrote this says, and here's the part where 14-year-old me nodded my head like I knew what they were talking about when I had no idea what they were talking about. and she was just like she's like oh you gotta hate you hate to see it you know you just hate to see it so i just thought that was a really funny addition there i was like get where you're like yeah one thing

Anyways. So he knew that he only wanted the one thing from them, the sex. But he said that all the girls were nice, but just not godly enough. They didn't have big white beards and sandals or what? So he felt like God was telling him to settle down. So he did what you do, you know. What everyone does, he asks your father to find you a wife. Well, yeah. Typical, right? Because I know that's what I would do. I want my dad's taste in women. Right.

And that's no shade to like my mother and then being a couple. That's just me saying like, no, I'm good. I think I'll find my own thing. I think I'll find my own. Yeah. Yeah. So. The writer admits that they're not entirely sure exactly all the details about how this went down. But basically, and like how they even knew each other or, you know, those things are a little fuzzy here.

But basically, Rick Schrader asked Pa if he knew of any godly women for John. And what do you know, Pa sends him Esther. Whoa. We got a doozy for you. I feel like this is like a used car exchange is what's going on. You got anything used with a lot of storage space? Very little miles on it. We're looking at just around the lot. Yeah, like good fuel economy.

We don't want it too used. It can't be used. Okay, so the user ends up kind of ending their post by saying, but yeah, Esther was basically a mail order bride. So, what's wild to me is that they use this as a sermon, as an example of a positive way in which a marriage came about. Like, it's just wild to me to think that you just literally preach this like...

And then she got sent here, and here she is, my wife. It's just wild. It's like the trafficking reference that you made before. Yeah. You know of any godly women? Pa's like, sure do. And just like probably like shipped her off with the Bible so he could put her like, he could claim like media mail. He just like mailed her to Texas. Here she is. I mean, at least they put holes in the wood crate that they sent her in.

You know, it's important. You don't want him to pass out. So this person, of course, is telling the story from like the Schrader, Texas side of things, right? Mm hmm. So the friend of Anna's, her childhood friend AMA, seems to corroborate this story, but it's interesting because now we're hearing it on kind of like the Keller end of things. So during your point where...

Anna and Pest came to be in their zero courtship straight to engagement timeline that we discussed a few episodes ago. This friend in her AMA had said...

Quote, yes, that's very common. And she watched multiple of her older sisters do the same thing. It gets so much better. But by better, of course, I mean worse. I was going to say. She says, quote. Her oldest sister's testimony was about how she sobbed for three days when her dad told her who she had to marry. And that was who was held up on a pedestal for us as the gold standard.

So it's fucking wild. Like, I can't get over the fact that, like, sharing that you sobbed for three days at the thought of marrying your husband being, like, touted as a good thing. Right. And that's not... It's not like I was afraid to leave home or like it has nothing. And it might be that part of it, but like, you know, but. But it's always framed in the way of like.

When they told me who I had to marry, I cried for three days. And then they're telling this story and everybody's like, oh, it's fucking wild. What is wrong with these people? It's insane. Oh, my God. So she. This is referring to the AMA person. She describes John as very controlling and says, quote, who proposed to his very scared wife.

After three days of the most intense love bombing and spiritual manipulation. Three days after meeting. Wow. So it's like, got any women? Then Paul's like... here's my daughter then he comes there she's probably she probably is initially thrilled for three days to be getting attention from a boy and be okay correct it's not allowed correct and then it's like and we're getting married and then she's probably like oh fuck

yeah like think of the emotion think of all the things that just transpired yeah like it's crazy like i feel feel very sad for us there so that is the story of how those two came to be it's like i wasn't sure from pest and anna's courtship if if it could get worse and this definitely tops it oh god like i mean they didn't know each other this takes the cake they didn't know each other at all right so it's like i thought that was bad with their i mean

He didn't even guess her siblings' ages. I know. They didn't even get to flirt at the snack bar.

So another funny tidbit from this AMA was he said Anna's older sister and her fiance weren't allowed to touch, so they held the ends of a stick instead. Now, she didn't say Esther specifically, at least at the point where I took the screenshot because I read this forever, like, you know, a while ago and was keeping stuff for future deep dives. If she went back and clarified later. But anyways, not really that important, but I do.

think it is referring to Esther specifically um I just I just don't get the vibe that that's like Rebecca and Josh's thing I just don't get that vibe even before you know Rebecca left IBLP and stuff but the reason uh it definitely tracks being John and Esther is because their engagement photo is them holding their hands up almost like mime style with a Bible between their hands so that they're not touching.

So I totally think it's her. So Chinese finger trap would have been okay? Yeah. Let me see. I'm going to text you the picture. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Oh, God. I want you to see. You just got to see this. It's just funny that idea of like.

it it feels like the stereotype of like siblings playing and then them being like don't touch your sister and then it's the i'm not touching you i'm not touching you yeah okay so oh my oh my i know that is i know it's something isn't it that is something so this is definitely going in visuals oh man um But this is not the most hilarious part. You ready for the best part? Oh, honey. So they couldn't hold hands. However, she was allowed to give him a head massage because technically hair is dead.

Number one the mental gymnastics of it all with their loopholes. And number two can you imagine the chub he probably got from her rubbing her hands through his hair. I've been asking Whitney to give me a head massage for months. If we're really going to get down to it, what do you think is more sensual? Their word. They use the word sensual. Holding hands. Holding hands or running your hands through their hair.

What do you think is more likely to give a guy like a chub? You guessing my age? Okay, never mind. That's why they skipped over that. Pa was like, none of that. Hey, we're not going to get into that. But then it goes down. You get more lax with your kids by the time it got to Anna. He's like, okay, you can guess her age. Yeah, exactly. Oh, man. So, yeah. The loopholes they have. Well, the hair is dead. Okay, so Esther and John end up getting married on November 3rd, 2001. Oh, look at that.

So ironically, we share wedding anniversaries with them, with them getting married exactly 10 years before us. So we just had our 11-year anniversary this past week, which means that they just had their 21st. How precious.

Using the Duggar word. How precious. So now let's talk about their life after they got married. Apparently, as soon as they got married, they both knew that they wanted to do mission work. but, quote, knew that it had to be the Lord calling us and not just our desires. So instead, at first he served as his father's associate pastor for five years at that church in Katy, Texas.

which perfectly aligns with that timeline of that first Reddit post. She's saying it's 2005, 2006. That's towards the tail end of him being the associate pastor there. Then they end up moving all the way to Washington State where he spent a year and a half as a pastor before they end up moving to Oregon. Then they end up in Oregon for four years. Again, pastoring. And it's during this time that he hears about Zambia and he becomes fixated on it.

So he tells Esther about this and apparently she prays and I guess she gets confirmation from God as well that it's the right move for them. So in March of 2012, they go to Zambia on a survey trip. using the money that they were going to use for their 10-year anniversary trip on an Alaskan cruise. But you know, Zambia, that's good. That's fine. Same thing. So it's after this trip.

that they end up putting up their house for sale and they begin preparing for their mission and were, quote, totally living by faith. Now, that timeline of events and that quote are taken directly from their old website, like bio type thing under the part that's written by John.

So it pretty much goes straight from that quote to talk of the, like the excitement and seeing where the Lord takes them, blah, blah, blah, right? But what it totally glosses over is what that... totally living by faith, really entailed. Which was the entire family living in a pop-up camper, not even an RV, a pop-up camper.

and at this point i just want to point out that they had seven kids by that point and on facebook john even wrote one time quote thankfully the children are all small so all nine of us have a place to sleep shoving a family of nine in a tent on wheels is irresponsible and it's you know if it wasn't so fucking god-awful it would be comical that he writes each kid having a place to sleep like it's like a bonus right and not a necessity if it wasn't so bad it'd be funny yep

So of course, during this time of living in a tent on fucking wheels, John is being roasted on the internet. From what everyone can tell, he never seems to hold down a job for very long. and like right before this whole like survey trip it seemed like he had lost another job working at a car dealership as a salesman and um he ends up seemingly confirming this that he all the different jobs he has when

He seems to become aware of all of this heat that he's getting online. And he begins popping up on various boards and forums and starting to respond to the criticism.

So I'm going off of a couple of posts in the next part. He almost has a... like a light script he follows in his responses because all are pretty similar but some of them have just bits and pieces different from the other one so I'm kind of just like piecing together some different things but I don't he built a defense and then it's just yeah and I don't feel like

leaving out certain parts or like whatever combining i don't feel like it changes the context it's just they kind of repeat each other but right so he says quote this is the one where he's more salty quote you people have no idea who i am When I pastored in Oregon, I worked a 60 to 70 hour a week job to provide for my children and wife and served as a pastor for almost nothing. We qualified for food stamps, but never took them.

We just chose to make careful choices with our funds. That's on you, buddy. Yeah, seriously. That doesn't make you better. That makes you less responsible. These are the type of people who are so against food stamps and welfare.

But then we'll just starve their kids in the meantime. I would rather your kids fucking eat because it's not your kids fucking fault that they're not eating properly or living in a fucking camper. And some posts back on the camper for a second. Actually, no, I'll read this next part. So in another one, he says, quote, we are moving as a family to live in Africa as missionaries. Before that, I pastored for 10 years. I worked a secular job alongside my pastoring all 10 years.

I have owned my own successful lawn care business for over six years, been a licensed real estate agent in two states, and worked in a custom cabinet building shop. I have been approved and worked in many school districts as a substitute teacher in Washington state. God help those children. Just what we need. And have letters of recommendation from principals and school administrators.

Now a bunch of those are kind of funny because just with light digging people weren't really seeing the evidence of these jobs that you'd think you'd see and I'm not saying that maybe there's no truth to them but it sounds very played up. I think he probably did all of those for very short periods of time.

right and people are like how if you had they're like if you're a real estate agent like when he when he posted like what jobs he worked on his facebook if you were such a real estate why is that not on your facebook but some other bullshit thing is and people are like what did he did he you know

for six years as a teenager mow lawns and he's trying to be like i had a successful lawn care but you know like it all sounds like that's probably the vibe because people aren't you're not seeing these things that he's talking about in the way that you feel like you should be When I worked in America, I used to work at a casino here in Arizona. And there was a guy that used to come in and he owned like a middle of the road, like pest control business.

that operated in maricopa and i will never forget him talking to our like restaurant manager complaining and being like well i don't understand why you can't do that i owned a restaurant in new york city and when we did that you know and it was like some dumb food complaint that he had and i remember the restaurant manager coming back to me and being like

All right. Well, he's back. And he told me the name of the guy. We knew it was the pest control guy. And I loved his response because his response to me was like. He loves to whip out, well, I used to own a restaurant in New York City, and it's like, you're in pest control now. how successful was your restaurant in new york city suddenly in food everybody's worked in food well i've worked in fit well i've done like suddenly everybody's done it all yeah but yeah totally has the same vibe

Then he addresses them living in a camper as well saying, quote, we chose to live in a pop-up camper for a time to save money and have consistency for our children as we have traveled from church to church. Which I take and kind of assume is them looking for churches to support their mission. Like the more churches they can get on board, the more money. Yep.

So a.k.a. grift for money and put our kids on a fucking tent in a tent on wheels in the meantime. And he ends it with saying. They viewed it as a year long camping trip. Did they know? You know what they would probably appreciate more than the year-long camping trip? A solid house to live in. Yeah, seriously. And it's like, okay.

the whole they love it like that's just what they do and you know it's just like michelle always being like the kids love helping with this the kids love to you know the kids always seem to love it but let's say the kids do it's because they're kids and they may find being out dirty They may find something because they don't see the whole big picture. But as the parent, you are supposed to provide better. And nine people on a pop-up is not okay. No.

And this isn't just a case of people falling on hard times and having to do what they have to do. They chose this. Correct. They put themselves in this situation. He can't hold down a job. He's deciding that they're going to go be missionaries in Zambia. He chose.

a pop-up and he just said we chose that correct it wasn't a thing out of necessity is what he's saying it was a decision to save money and um the pictures were taken down but there were pictures of the pop-up camper at one point and like i saw comments where people are like they're like it's literally the type where you have to lift up the sink to get to the toilet like you know you know you know like

So you're going to say that's really a viable option for seven children and two adults. Yeah. It seems unhygienic. It seems neglectful. Yeah. And. I think it's different when you have means. When you have means to have a more secure...

i'm not convinced that they even had the means though either you know what i mean like i feel like there's this weird middle ground where i think that they i think he i'm i think he chose it in the sense because he's a fucking lazy fuck and who doesn't want to have a regular job and wants to do his whole like god

white savior you know be the whole savior thing so to me he's choosing it in that sense i think that they were fucking dirt poor but that's what i'm saying like if he would have just stayed with the job for a while or if he indeed was a real estate agent, whatever it was like, like you had the capacity to provide a better living situation for your family.

And you weren't doing it because you think he's lazy. And you want to do your thing. Right. You want to do you. And you're going to bring your kids up this way. And when somebody comments on it, you're going to put it to... well they like it well you know it's a year-long camping trip right like yeah i'm gonna try to spin it this way and it's like no that's how you justify it in your head yeah but i guarantee you once again you know what

there's jokes in this manner but it's like you know what uh feels better than than being a missionary and living in a year-long camping trip a bed to sleep in yeah like yeah yep um and it does look at look like at some point they do get like temporary housing like i can't tell if other people put them up but it seems like in the cold winter months that they did have a place to stay and then i mean which is good can you because you imagine Oregon in the winter in a tent?

Yeah. So it seems like they got put up somewhere and then they ended up before actually leaving to Zambia being back in Texas. So then I think they had a place to stay there again. But still along this way, there was these long bouts of time where you had all your children in a camper.

if they oh and so they just had a van that apparently his parents bought for them okay he totaled the van because he fell asleep at the wheel thank god he didn't have his children in it or wasn't like you know carrying the family house at the same at the time like he wasn't all in the house it was just in the van i mean it's just like it's just a fucking disaster like it's just it sounds like such a fucking mess yeah

Anyways. But it's a mess for the Lord. I mean, that's a different kind. It's allowed. So eventually, the whole family moves to Zambia June 6th of 2014. So the family actually seems to have a much more stable living situation over there in Africa. Go figure. Because now their lifestyle is not dependent on...

John actually providing for the family. They are now completely supported by the donations of others. So for them, that's good because they have better odds than him taking care of them. And I didn't even... like write it down or whatever but at one point he got on something he was like I'm just basically it was just like a whole wow wow I misunderstood the way you guys have presented me online I wouldn't like me either like you know like this whole thing but

anyway so they're they have a much better like they have a they have a home that's not uh they don't have to lift up the sink to go to the bathroom they're you know overall much better and honestly there's just so much i could get into but just for moving along um i could save save some of this for future deep dives or i was actually thinking of if in the future we end up doing a patreon which i'm thinking about it could be like

bonus content on patreon to get into more of this stuff but out of all the things i was trimming out of this saga i did decide i need to include some of what happened in 2017. So in April of 2017, John began posting on Facebook that a disciple of his had turned against him and was reaching out to other people about him on Facebook and talking like badly about him, basically. Okay. And John was asking people of Facebook to let him know if they were being contacted by this guy. Okay.

Then in August of 2017, John starts posting a series of vague, like, woe is me. you know post but like christian style so i cut a bunch of the stuff but it's like you know it's like the girl that's like going through a breakup and then she starts like posting quotes song lyrics yeah like shit like that so he's pulling that but it's like god you know god shit it's like you know what i mean like it

it's just it's the total same vibe of like what's wrong john oh i don't i just don't want to talk about it like it's yeah it's definitely that but uh i'm gonna read you some of the best ones that aren't just you know quotes and lyrics oh god Well, today the situation got much worse. I can honestly say that this has been the worst two days in our entire time in Zambia. Esther and I have cried until there seemed to be no more tears.

Over what God is revealing in some. Who is that? My Chemical Romance? What would be a good biblical band name? What is that? Some DC talk there. But that's the rock beat. That's not allowed. That's true. Damn. Got nothing. So he also claims that he and Esther and along with some other church members are being threatened.

Oh, my. So then several members of the church end up posting about John on their Facebook page. I love some biblical mess. Some biblical Facebook mess. Like, give it to me. So, yeah, they're just getting messy. And then now they're talking about John on their Facebooks. And I'm just going to give you a few. Okay. First one, quote.

God is truly revealing a lot about the... You know how earlier I said I say missionary with quotations around it? This time there literally is quotation marks around it. Oh, damn. Okay. Written by the guy. God is truly revealing a lot about the missionary. That led me to Christ regarding his fire red desperation to succeed in ministry that hinders him from being effective. Now, my good friends, that he has been.

brainwashing to support him even when he was wrong have finally seen how deceitful manipulating and dishonest he is oh damn okay yeah and now i'm just pulling some key things out of Various posts. Another one said that he is, quote, so drunk with pride. Ooh. Drunk. And pride? Oh, my. For any of my Rick and Morty, fellow Rick and Morty fans, every time Whitney throws down some of this hot, like, biblical trash talk. Some of that herbal tea that Esther was serving up that one. Right, exactly.

Every once in a while from the back, I just want to go, God damn. Shout out my Rick and Morty fans.

um so drunk so drunk with pride and another person said he was quote narcissistic fraud with an overinflated god complex so this is pretty fucking spicy coming from like church people right you know so this last one i'll give is my favorite oh my god are we in the middle of like a biblical rap battle right now It infuriates me that someone can just waltz into our backyard, arrogantly declare how they want us to live,

And we blindly comply even if it means going against fundamental principles of who we are as a nation. Which pretty much sums up my feelings on missionary work. Missionary work. I kept thinking that exact same thing. And I have purposely avoided going on a rant about missionary work in general because that would take me so off track and we would never get back on. We will have opportunities. There's more mission.

episode we can talk about this another time but i just want to include that because i was like damn yeah that's like a whole thing right there about missionary where it's waltzing into our backyard and telling us how to live there is some mustard on that Yeah, so we'll be able to talk about that in the future. So like I said, there's so much more we can talk about in the future, but I really wanted to focus on, for this episode, how John and Esther got married.

and how they came into missionary work as well as focus on like a little glimpse into his personality so i feel like we're kind of getting a feel for who he is as a person right little can't doesn't seem to be able to take the not being able to hold a job kind of feels like he doesn't handle authority well he wants to do his own thing all the time he has an ego like you kind of get this yeah feel for how he is

Which leads me to a funny final story. It's not just the people of Zambia and the internet, apparently, that can't fucking stomach John. It is also Esther's sister, Rebecca. Ooh.

the problem so rebecca is the ringlet the one you were talking about earlier the blonde hair she's the one that was married to josh but on a facebook post where john was ranting about john calvin which of course is got calvin you know which hell calvin calvin and hobbs yes exactly um rebecca so he was just like he he i've seen it a couple times like i was scaring his facebook for this whole thing right and he like rails against this guy several times so he's like

hot to trot on this whole thing. But Rebecca commented, quote, Oh, John, which is already a great beginning. Because it's so minimizing. It's so patronizing. When I read that first, I was like, here we go. Oh, man. Oh, John. You're so blinded from anything but what in your mind is truth and now unfriended by me. I still love you, though, and always will. Just don't want to read all your posts every morning.

That encompasses some family on social media with me. Where it's that same thing. Where it's like... I feel exactly that same way. Which a couple things here. I think I'm a big Rebecca fan. I really do. Like she was like the one that like when people were saying stuff to putting like on Anna's post like.

will help you or you need this or whatever like she was liking all the posts like that um like you know she left ibl even when she and josh were still married they had left iblp together and even after divorce it seems like she's just even more mainstream now but still has kept kept in touch and pretty close contact it seems like good relationships with their family like she's not even cut off from so i respect both her and josh even though they're um divorced i respect how like candid they are

While not being complete assholes. Right. Which is better than I can be. but also that like she somehow has been able to maintain these relationships at the same time. So it's like she draws her kind of boundary line. So I don't know. I think I might be a Rebecca Stan. So I doubt she listens, but Rebecca Hunt. Girl, I thought just starting it off with, oh, John, already I was... Reach out. So I also wanted to just point out that she says, still love ya.

yeah not you which other people might say I'm reading into this too much but to me yeah is more of like a more obligatory like a little more casual not as sincere whereas if you said love you that's like more more natural more like you know like more sincere i just feel like the love is like still love you but you say that when you're throwing shade yeah

it's not like it's the your sister and you're like i still love you but she's just like still love you but don't want to see your fucking post every morning so yeah the whole thing i i quite enjoyed that little post and there's been times that susie like um Susanna said stuff to him, but it was more like...

direct about some of the stuff he said like whereas i the reason i pointed out rebecca's is because without having to read his whole thing it's funny regardless right like it says everything you need to know without having whereas suzanna's was more like you'd have to know what he was saying She was kind of calling him out on like religious shit. I don't really care. But so, yeah, those two sisters definitely speak their mind. Oh, John. And just to kind of keep you up to date.

Esther just gave birth to their 13th child on October 13th there in Zambia. Great. So not even a month ago. Yeah. So. i mean there's a lot more oh my god you don't even know the things about this family like i could literally at some point when i just don't have another deep dive topic i feel like doing i could just

keep going i could do everything else i didn't tell you guys about john schrader oh my goodness there's a decent amount but he sounds like a anyways so um my takeaway from this is pa keller is a real big fucking asshole

Yep. So it's completely out. He just sells off his daughters to these men. And what's funny is... when you think about it one of the things that john and josh have in common is this like i repented message so like with john it was like oh he was doing the sinful you know he rebelled and he was being sinful he was dating girls and with josh it was just like you know i'd had a hard time being blah blah blah you know like whatever but it's it's like pa keller

loves this like redemption redemption story he loves it's like i feel he's got a fucking hard on for for these guys and it's like he throws his daughters at them as if he thinks that's going to make them a better husband or something like oh they went through this and they i think he thinks like the admitting it is just like oh look at that yeah so commendable yeah and then he just like

lets them loose on his daughters yeah well i can i can only speak when like i'll give you an example um that's more about me than about this person um

We have a family member that's younger that was dating a guy for a while. And, of course, all of the older kind of like male members of the family were kind of like... hyper analyzing this person and like there was just certain things where you're like i wish i wish you've i don't want anything to be hard for you but i wish you went through a little bit more because it like strife builds character but if you're a trash human being

going through that strife doesn't mean anything. You're still a trash human being. So it's kind of that idea where like, yes, you know, if you have more life experience, then you know how to deal with things that are difficult a little bit better. But you can get life experience without being a fucking piece of shit. Exactly. Like those two things aren't tied together where if you do A, it doesn't mean you're B.

You can go through that and still be a bad human being. Yeah. And, yeah, what has he got with this whole redemption thing? It's fucking weird. Everyone loves an underdog story. Here, have my daughter. Oh, you struggled? Have my daughter. I don't know. It blows my mind that I thought that it couldn't get worse and it got worse. Yeah.

You just keep digging. That's the thing is like, you keep digging through these things. That's how he handled his first child getting married. Yeah. Literally fucking sold her. So now in hindsight, remember how we were like, it was all... manipulation with pa being like we're gonna go like you know he gets a phone like josh tells josh tells boob he's interested so boob talks to pa and then all of a sudden pa's like we're gonna go visit this family vacation we had planned to arkansas so it's like

and it's still bad but suddenly that manipulation of trying to make it look organic when it was completely orchestrated doesn't look quite as bad as literally shipping off your daughter to another state and having her get engaged after three days yep isn't that bad when the other option you're like suddenly it's not looking so terrible god and we have a we have a friend that listens that said that like

everything about that felt like sex trafficking or like human trafficking this is so much more so it's like if we thought that about the anapest situation this is exactly what that person said if you thought that josh was bad Josh is bad. But it's like, I guess for me, this is more of a, if you thought the, how this relationship came to be was bad, this is the worst. And shout out. I can't wait for Tiff to listen to this and be like, yo. Yeah, this is bad.

So yeah, that's my takeaway. Pa Keller is garbage. Yep. So maybe I don't want Rebecca listening to this because she probably still loves her dad. You know what I mean? But it sounds like she's...

It sounds like she's in a place where she can understand that, like, you make really questionable decisions. And, like, I don't know. I feel like there's a... I have some ex... kind of acquaintance friends of mine that I can look back and be like I really care about you as a person but the decisions that you make make you trashy as hell yeah

So it's like I can kind of separate the fact that, like, at the end of the day, I really miss you as a person. And I think there's a nugget of an amicable human being down there. But because of the decisions you make, like...

yeah we probably shouldn't hang out but i think that's just where it's interesting it's like she seems to still have a relationship with her family as a whole right i don't know so not everybody's like me like i was like my i think my dad is fucking garbage like you know so i cut my dad off right am i starting to sound weird oh um so i cut my dad off but i was like i have to understand that not everybody can do that so but for me when i see something it's just like

to me super disgusting like and you're supposed to be this like figure i have even less yeah capacity to deal with it because it's not just like your friend where you're just like You're my friend. I can deal with you doing some questionable bullshit or not agreeing with everything you do. But when it's someone that's supposed to be this, like, supposed to be a pillar in your life, I don't have the fucking patience for that. So it's almost interesting for me. So if she does see the...

these things this way i'm almost like wow how do you maintain a relationship because just for me i couldn't yeah but i know some people still like i end up but i also understand at the end of the day that there's a lot of people who still want their parents yeah whereas like for me i was just like it's not worth it because there wasn't anything there yeah so it's like i don't know you know it's just i don't know it's just an interesting concept of like how everybody has a different line of like

And I'm not willing to like waste my time acting like certain things aren't happening or not discussing certain things. Like I can't do that. Maybe some people can. Maybe that's the situation she's in. We don't talk about religion. We don't. I don't know. But.

It's fascinating. Yep. But I could not do it. What's kind of like what's important to you? Because like the... Like I've had things like that happen and the response from some of like... friends and family is like well you you gotta just forget about that it's because they're family and I think we've had this discussion multiple times where like the line that I draw is that

blood relation is an excuse for crappy behavior oh yeah and with some people they're very much like well they're family yeah they're family you should no no that's not everybody's different but that's a line that kind of i draw

Is that that's not okay because we were happenstance born in the same family. Can I change the subject for a split second? Sure. I just thought of something that I didn't write down, but in one of... in one of John's like online things where he was like responding to people he gets really like and feel free to message me like he gets very like if you want to keep talking about this you know talk you know message me blah blah blah blah

But there was one that he said something along the lines of being thrown into this kind of spotlight-ish. I don't remember. That wasn't his exact words, but it's the gist of people are now paying attention and... shitting all over him because of he said something along along the lines of because j of because anna made a bad choice and married a reality tv star and i was like reality tv star is fucking generous

i wouldn't say josh duggar at the time that they got married was a uh reality tv star the show had not even actually premiered but i still would never call them stars yeah but I just think that's funny. But he was like, because Anna made a poor choice. I'm like, oh. Well, Pa Keller made some poor choices. There you go. Yeah. I don't think she had a whole lot of choice. Yep. Your wife didn't either. Anyways, so that is the story of Esther Keller Schrader for now. Fucking awful. But no tears.

I know neither one of us teared up in this one. I hope you guys liked the costume, us dressing up. Oh, yeah. It was fun. It'll be an annual thing. So now you just get to wonder, what are we going to do next year? It was pretty funny. We got like 350-something days until the next Duggar costume. I'm dressing up as Jibballoon, man.

Don't even spoil it. We should have just done it. We should have done side characters. I could be Jeffrey Knight. Yes. A side character. No, you need to be him so you can wear the leotard. well i mean which one i have a lot of leotards so we're gonna have to choose which one we want pastels remember yep that's the okay you're jeffrey knight i'm jabloon man because i'll be the chicken anyways

All right. Well, thank you, guys. Do you have anything else to say? Nope. All right. Thank you, guys, as always. Number 25. Nice number. Ooh, man. It's wild. TheYuge. Follow us on Instagram. See that costume if you haven't already. DiggingUpTheDuggarsPod. Email us at DiggingUpTheDuggars at gmail. Buy us a pickle. Yes. If you want to support us, if you like what you're listening to and want to shoot five bucks.

We are on buymeacoffee.com slash digging up the dug. Digging up the dug. It makes me laugh every time. It sounds like a really sleazy morning show on like the rock radio station.

Oh, it does. And actually, you know, if people want to know what some of that pickle money goes towards, it went towards those outfits. It went towards me buying more materials, more books. I've bought all sorts of... new she got some doozies yeah i did i got some good i call all of my stuff paraphernalia i don't want to call it like so i always say i'm like my funny paraphernalia all over the house so that's what if you're wondering what your money goes towards that's the type of stuff that it

helps out with so thank you guys and we will see you next week