Episode 24 - Grande Bag O' Beans

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Visit lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe that? marcus okay so now we're on episode 24 so this is the marcus episode so this is still anna and pest kids at this point before we actually get into the recap of the actual episode i just want to sidestep for a couple minutes for a little maybe hopefully not minutes

But first of all, so we did skip last week. A couple reasons there. First of all, Tim was, he had this week, he's working like a fucking dog. It's insanity. and good yeah it's not great and he he was off last weekend but he just got back from the annual man trip in our family So he was just gone this weekend from Friday to Sunday. Annual thing. We do all the food for it. It's a whole thing. Year 10. Year 10. It's a big deal. They have like fucking stickers.

I'll tell that story in another episode. It's actually pretty fun. There's stickers. There's a plaque for cornhole. It's a whole, fuck it, there's ceremony. Oh, yeah. It's a whole thing. It's a thing. But so he just got back from that yesterday. So normally Tim is off Sunday Mondays and we try to record on Mondays. Now lately he's been off once.

One day a week. So we've been recording on Sundays. Anyway, so he actually was off both days last week, but it just turned out that with preparing for the trip, we had an electrician coming to the house. That was the whole thing. And then I was actually still trying to hunt down a text from IBLP for this week's deep dive that I was like, oh, I'd really like that information. So just between all the different factors, it was like, we're just going to skip.

skip a week and then now we're back at it. Kind of crazy that we're even being able to record today with Tim's crazy schedule. So it's a miracle we're even here right now. It took me an hour and 15 minutes to get home through traffic, and it usually takes like half an hour. It was awful.

And it's Halloween day right now, actually, just so people were recording on Halloween. And, you know, normally he'd be off, but he couldn't be off today. So he just got back from this trip and he rushed back to work. And we're trying to work this all in at the same time. a crunch but we're just so we skipped the one week but we're back and one other little tidbit of news i just wanted to share with everybody we've officially hit 50 000 plays

We were actually really close to it last time we recorded two weeks ago. But I didn't want to be one of those assholes who like preemptively like claims it. I feel like if you do that ahead of like, you know, like that's like bad karma. You're jinxing yourself.

yeah so we're actually like 57 000 right now but you know 50 is a pretty commendable number uh it seems like that last 25 went really fast i agree because we started the podcast like april like end of april and we i did the post about hitting 25 000 plays at the beginning of september so now here we are end of october and actually we're now at 57 right now so that last part that's 25 wouldn't really

Really fast. And hopefully all those people that complain about the audio stick with us. We'll live that down for the rest of our life. We just got another review. We're like, God damn it. This is going to fuck with us forever. So Tim and I were like, what can we do? Because the thing about recording, we record on one track. Yeah, it's a stereo track, but I put us both on the same one. Yeah, so I was like, can we go back? So it's not as easy to go back and edit stuff like that.

We're going to have him go back and try. But that means him literally listening to us talking and then adjusting and then adjusting and then adjusting. Yeah, like I would have to like copy her audio into another track as it comes up.

and then adjust the audio and all of it so it's like i either take a long time to do the individual parts or i adjust it all and then i just put the volume up a little bit yeah it's a whole fucking thing so i told them it's no rush but it's just something that we could do to not have to hear about this like

All the fucking time. Especially as we get like new people. And hopefully it means that we don't drop anybody. Like that's our goal is that people don't go, God damn, that was real bad. And then they don't listen anymore. So for the 2,000, there's over 2,000 of you that stuck through it.

we appreciate you and you are the reason that we are at 50 000 plays right now and i just want to say thank you and you know i think when you hit 50 i think what we're supposed to do i think we're supposed to go to like downtown phoenix find a brightly painted brick wall i think i'm supposed to go to party city and get mylar um five and zero balloons

Whitney's lampooning influencers right now. I think that's what we're supposed to. You know, everything I've learned from Instagram, that's what we're supposed to do. And more so than that, we're supposed to jump in the picture. Well, please.

Anyways. We just want to say thank you guys for getting us to 50. It feels like a big landmark. That last 25 went fast. Just wanted to say thank you. The two new countries on the... plays like the countries where the plays came from uh we're we're getting into the Caribbean again we have uh the Dominican Republic and then we're also floating South America because we got Colombia

exciting you know every time we get a new it's it's exciting every single time it never is not exciting so welcome people of columbia and what was the other one oh dominican republic the dr thank you for being here maybe they're the ones that listened for one episode and left i don't know it's all good okay so the actual episode is called duggars in el salvador Hey, there you go. And it premiered February 17th, 2009. So Lego and the oldest 11 kids minus Cinderjana.

are going to El Salvador for a mission trip. So Boo was just giving a pep talk about the Civil War and washing their hands. Yeah. Quite the range. By the way, no one was listening. Even John David, who was standing next to him as like, I'm kind of helping you out here. Even he was kind of staring at his shoes and picking at his fingernails. It was just quite the range.

war washing your hands there's all sorts of parasites over there yeah it was funny um so he's talking to them about about all that stuff and then it just kind of it moves along pretty quickly in the beginning they're at the airport and they end up checking in 24 bags that they have and apparently collectively that weighs 600 pounds yep

And they were buying Christmas gifts. Yes. So it's all their luggage plus gifts that they're giving kids down in El Salvador. So I guess the flight goes okay because they don't really show anything about it. But it shows them having cleared customs and now they are introduced. We are like they're out on the sidewalk and they're kind of like waiting for the ride. And this is when we are first introduced to Mike Schott.

So Mike Schott is the founder of SOS Ministries, and the Duggars apparently met him through a mutual friend, and they have been coming through his mission trips that are through his organization for the last three years or so. So I just wanted to point out a major uptick. I don't know if you noticed this, Tim. Major uptick in the ginger thumbs up. No. You didn't notice? So.

You know, we're just a couple minutes in and Ginger has already hit us with the thumbs up like three times already. Oh, wow. I remember the one when they were on the plane and she has her cool sunglasses on. Oh, yeah. And she's like, we're going to El Salvador. And she gives it them.

She must have gotten that from her father. Double good. You know, we've had past episodes where she's... you know thrown the hands the thumbs up and it becomes a whole thing and she ends up talking about later on saying that like one time a crew member told her to do it and it became a whole fucking thing but i'm like you kept doing it yeah but i just felt like i've never even mentioned it in the past but this episode

is so ginger thumbs up heavy i felt like it had to be addressed that's funny okay so then um jessa in a talking head is saying how being in the villages is eye-opening and that The, quote, smell was different. And then Ginger, in keeping with the Duggar trait of always wearing the most inappropriate footwear ever, as they do, says... I stepped in stuff as she's in these like thin fucking flip flops. Yeah. I'm like, maybe this isn't the place to be wearing.

thin flip-flops once again hush puppy size seven they just they have no concept of appropriate footwear The one thing I noticed in this too is even on a trip where you're taking your children internationally to a third world country.

the two oldest girls were still doing everything oh like they still had like all the passports in the bags and they were like they were the ones that were getting the the stickers out of like the machine when they were checking everything in like but he talks at the counter so that means he has it all that's true you know so one of the first things they do is they go shopping for necessities to give families so at this point they're at this local market

and boob is trying to ask the store owner if they have bigger bags of beans because they just had like the little like one pounders yeah and him asking was something my favorite line fucking something do you want to do it So he goes up to the counter, the... El Salvadorian guy that's with them is telling them, oh, you know, the necessities that people mostly need are like rice, beans, matches, like cans of sardines because they, you know, they can stay, you know, shelf stable.

Um, and they're trying to get a bunch and they get one bag or they get like three or four like small bags of beans. And they were asking, he goes to the shop counter and the owner is sitting there. And then he was like, He holds his hands out like he's showing a fish and he goes, grande bags of beans. Do you have grande bags of beans? Yeah. And what cracks me up about that is exactly one word of that is actually in Spanish. Grande, and that's it.

There's a MASH episode where they're speaking to some Korean nationals, and BJ and Hawkeye are talking to this guy, and BJ starts saying something in English, and the guy doesn't understand him, so he says it slower and louder. And Hawkeye goes, why is it that we go to a foreign country and we assume people can understand as if we say things slower and louder? Yeah, right.

Well, the funny part is that when the guy isn't understanding what he's saying by, do you have grande bag of beans? He ends up saying big. big old bag big old bags yeah and i would i fucking died big big old because if you add like oh at the end clearly i understand exactly what like we talk for our cat i don't know how many of you

We talk a lot for Mildred to each other. And if I were to preach anything, I preach the word of festivity. So I have a lot of Halloween shirts I've been wearing. And one of them is that Tim... Tim got it for me and it says, como estas?

witches and we were laughing and he was like what do you think mildred thinks it says and i and i told him that mildred probably thinks it says come to the estate witches so she she speaks the language of jim bob big old bags i was just like waiting for him to say grande albinos or something like if he added like l and o at the end yeah it was rough grande albinos anyways

So now there's a part where something Jim Bob said really just rubbed me the wrong way. I know. Shocking, right? Right. You know, Jim Bob saying something that fucking irritates me. So he's talking about Mike Schott having passion and vision for impacting the world. And here's where it gets me. He says, quote, motivating the people in their own country to help themselves.

Did you catch that? No that it just doesn't sit well with me because that has an air to it that the people are living in poverty due to lack of motivation yeah like they just made the wrong choices and not the millions of factors that actually impact these people's daily lives Correct. Like motivation. Wrong word, buddy. Yeah. So some might argue it's just maybe like a poor choice of words or something. But.

ending it with you know to help themselves to me gives this feel of talking about the people directly needing motivation to help themselves instead of perhaps a bigger like picture more broad idea Yeah. Like perhaps the government or just something, you know, just something else a little bit more larger scale. Correct. In those cases, I feel you would say something along the lines of like helping their citizens or something. I don't know. It gave me a really icky feeling with this.

Just like his wording of it. Well, that's how a lot of those commercials were in the 80s and 90s where they would be in some third world country. And that was where like the people would be like, for just the cost of a cup of coffee a day. And it was always like them. Like with kids in a village playing behind them. And it always just felt like I appreciate the message and getting help from like, you know, who they were reaching out to, like middle America.

But it always felt a little shitty. Yeah, I know. And I'll talk on this more as there's more that happens. But I'm like, that was the first thing that just kind of like peens in my brain where I'm like, I don't like the way you worded that. There's an SNL sketch with that where when the guy's like, for just the cost of a cup of coffee. And then the two poor villagers that behind him were like, where are you getting a cup of coffee?

Coffee's getting more expensive. And then they're like talking back and forth. And he's like, I'm trying to be helpful. Like it's them kind of like giving him a hard time. Yeah. I know if that's not what he meant, I feel like it was a really. poor choice of words because it sounds like you're blaming poverty stricken people's circumstances on a lack of motivation

That like the white Christian American is somehow not now giving them like this motivation that they didn't have before. Now they're here from SOS Ministries and they're just handing you the motivation you've been looking for this whole time. Like none of those people said, man, I wish I wasn't poor. Right? Anyways, I just didn't like it.

So now they're going to take the food to what Mike Schott describes as, quote, one of the neediest families in the region. And it's in a pretty remote area that they're being told. Like to the point where they're like watched for snakes and things and like tarantulas, I thought they said. And they're like walking a narrow dirt trail that gets narrower the farther in they get.

And the camera zooms in again on these stupid fucking broads and their fucking flip flops again. Did you notice that? Yeah. I was like zeroed in on their feet. Yep.

I mean, who thinks, oh, we're going hiking into a remote mountain. Let me grab my flips, you know? That's a great choice. I mean, it's not even like they're wearing Tevas. They're like legit wearing like... old navy like rubber flips it's funny so this family that they go to see it has 14 kids but well had unfortunately 14 kids but for

Have passed away. And they have no electricity or running water. Our fucking Roomba is going. I can hear it coming down the hallway. Can you hear it on the microphone? Barely. He's named Victor. Vic the Vac. Hopefully he doesn't show up. So as if Boob saying what he said earlier wasn't enough. Really the whole scene here with the family just makes me really uncomfortable. Were you uncomfortable?

I was kind of uncomfortable with this whole episode. I was. Because the theme of the episode was watch a white Christian family gawk at poor brown people. Exactly. Gawking is the word. Yeah. Because I'm definitely not naive to the fact that people... people actually seeing these things makes it more real for people. Correct. And this is that fine line. And I'm not claiming to have the answer.

here i understand that he's seeing it versus just hearing like hey there's some really you know terrible unhygienic and dangerous situations for these people i understand that once you see it versus just like hearing about it it kind of like sets in a little bit more But, I mean, is a fucking show on TLC that is being paying to this other family? Like, is this the place? Like, it's just that weird thing where I'm just like, this doesn't feel like the way to do it.

And the whole tour, they're telling these people's story. It just feels a bit disrespectful. There's a part where he's talking about their toilet situation and how... this like ministry ended up getting them like a cement kind of like foundation and cement like commode basically um to go over this hole in the ground

And the whole time that he's talking about this, Joy is just standing there holding a tarp open so that the camera can like zero in on their toilet. And I'm like, can you just not? Yeah. A shot of the tarps.

at most, would have sufficed. But I just feel like it's super invasive. And these people have so... These people have so little... to begin with and it's just like let's just show off that they're shitting in a hole in the ground like it just feels gross i'm just i'm not into it and for what it's not like this is for some real grade a documentary

Correct. Like, help. It's for a fucking TLC show about a circus family. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just... Then they mention how the father of the family is an alcoholic and he would come and take the... what the family like kind of like some of their resources and then disappear and what i hate about that besides the fact that i hate that that's happening for the family of course that's awful

But I hate because I feel like that just gives Boob more reason to feel elitist. Oh, 100%. And like look down on people by chalking this all up to like what he thinks is.

people just making bad choices correct like they're in this situation because you know he was an alcoholic right and negating a million other factors and it just feeds into this whole motivation crap from earlier yeah i don't know it would give people like him with like a similar mindset an easy way to conveniently overlook the plethora of like other things that contributed to this situation correct so i don't know i was just like i fucking hate every second of this yeah

Then they end up praying over the woman's baby and talk of how a baby nearby had died of malnutrition. So that's why when they asked her the biggest thing that they could pray for her for, she asked for the health of the baby. um and the whole time the camera is on the swim and i just feel so bad for her yeah it was odd it's like i asked myself does she know what's going on with this camera in her face um

And they're talking about these painful things in her life and they're just like filming her home. It's just really weird. And it's like, I don't know if she does or doesn't get it, but either way to me, it doesn't feel right. Right. Because even if she did.

feel kind of weird about it what the fuck is she gonna do yeah these people just brought her months worth of food she feels indebted to him there's there's this type of feel of like debt so she can be like you know what it's really uncomfortable for me yeah but you just brought me three months of food you're gonna go you're fucking gonna go with it and that was kind of the the facial expression she had which she was she looked embarrassed but then kind of like

well, I guess this is what I have to go with. It was kind of that level of... It was awkward to watch. Yeah, it made me very sad. Very sad. So now it's the next morning. Thank God I'm so ready to be done with that. It's the next morning and Jim Bob says he slept great. Of course, he didn't have to do anything. And, you know, boobs are going to boob.

And even when he's on a mission trip, halfway across the world, we see him emptying an entire can of hairspray on that fucking 3901 head of his. Yep. I wanted to know how many cans he packed. i know right it's got to be a decent amount he probably goes through half a can a day he packed as many cans of pringles that pest packed They love cans. Hairspray, Pringles, cream of soups. They're a big fan of cans.

So then they're eating breakfast and Josiah looks like he is on the struggle bus. Did you notice? No. um if you didn't know better and he was like you know not a fucking child and a fundy child at that like you would think that like he he has that hungover look

he at one he had his like hand he was holding his head up with his hands at one point he had his sunglasses on like he looks like he's fucking struggling you should go back and watch it it's hilarious but i it's probably just like lack of sleep and shit but i was like If I didn't know better, Josiah looks like he had a time last night. So they're going to be spending the day at an orphanage that has 75 orphans, half of which are HIV positive.

About 12 to 14, a bunch of them are 12 to 14 years old. Like I can't remember the exact amount, but there's a good amount of them. And being that age, they have little hope of being adopted. So they end up meeting up with another group.

And they head over to the orphanage. And right at the beginning, we're graced with a wonderful, and by wonderful, I mean terrible, scene of lego holding a little boy that is eating one of the suckers that like lollipops that they handed out to the kids and by the way just boob holding him is awkward enough already But wait, there's more. He says, is that good to the boy? And then he says, he says to the boy, muchos gracias, senor. But he says it like, muchos gracias, you know.

It's like, are you trying to force this kid that has nothing and is living in a fucking orphanage? And doesn't understand what you just asked him? Doesn't understanding anything. Being held by a fucking oaf. And... You're trying to force him to say thank you for the fucking dumb-dumb that you brought him? Like, get over yourself. Like, it just feels weird. Like, don't force it. Just let it go, man. Let it fucking go. And put the kid down while you're at it.

let him let it and him go i don't like it so then mike goes on about how being there today they wanted to bring the hiv positive kids hope but knowing they were coming They took all the HIV positive kids and they removed them. He says, quote, they've taken them away, I think, to prevent being exploited. And that grieves my heart the most.

This is totally one of those like you said it not me moments. It's like you're the one that said exploited. Yeah. Which is funny because I had all my weird feelings.

earlier in this episode i'm like you just said it it is feel like a form of exploitation yeah and you know there's probably a reason that the orphanage felt that way this ministry has been there before they know the jig you know a bunch of white people showing up with cameras this time and it's like you know with a like a tv film crew yeah i don't know so obviously the orphanage felt a reason to do this so i just thought that was

telling you know because they also know that they're not there to adopt anybody right like they're they're not there to see and i listened to a podcast that had somebody who was an orphan grew up an orphan and talked about how that was the the worst part was that if they knew that there was potential parents that were coming, they felt that they were kind of paraded out to the parents. Yeah. And it's.

everything about that grosses me out it's really uncomfortable um and then there's one random moment where josiah is talking about it being heart-wrenching for him that these kids don't have parents and he has his parents right next to him And all I could think of in the moment was, no, Josiah, Jana's at home. That was exactly what I thought. And I'm like, Josiah, no, you don't have your parents with you.

So, in A Talking Head, Jill is really, she's really broken up and crying over the girls that are older and have, like, very little hope of being adopted. and um you can see she has real like genuine oh yeah like emotion um and not saying you have to like cry like me and jill to feel you know emotion obviously I'm a crier I've talked about this every emotion I feel comes out in the form of tears but I just remember my takeaway just kind of being that Jill

was the one in most in touch with her feelings and now in rewatch it's just kind of interesting to see and be reminded of why i had that feeling about her yeah but yeah so she seems genuinely pretty broken up about it and mike ends up asking a little girl if she could have one thing what would that one thing be and her response is quote We made it. This one's a rough episode. She said that you could take me with you. Yeah.

And again, I just don't like it. It feels icky because it's like, let's ask this poor, I'm more, I feel bad for her in saying that, but I'm more upset because I feel like it's really gross. to ask her for her biggest wish on life in life put it on camera and then be like nope and fly home in a couple days yeah we're just here to bring you suckers and film you like it just feels really gross and then spoiler alert sing silent night at you right i don't know i just i was really appalled

And I feel like years ago when I first watched this, being much younger, it's just an episode about adoption, you know, about this orphanage and moved on. But now I'm like, how fucking gross to have her pour out her heart on fucking film. have her say the thing that would mean the most to her right now, and then just fucking leave. I even think it would be different if it was like, because they know that ministry guy. I even think it would be different if he was like, you know, we asked...

some of them here like what you know what i mean like it would be a retelling of that story but it wouldn't be hey let me ask you this heart-wrenching thing with the camera in your face yeah that's what the whole thing is just like i can't think of another way to say but it just makes me feel growth and she had that that same like i think the only way that the word that came to mind before was like dignified embarrassment is like the like the just the same as the mom

Yeah. She had the same expression as that mom where she was like, I'm embarrassed and I'm trying to hold it together. You know, and there's a good chance that that girl could have felt that just, you know, on her own anyway. And that's heartbreaking enough. But to put it on camera, directly ask her that question, and then just be like, while we're leaving, here's some beans and a lollipop. It just doesn't sit with me at all.

feels like that's the part that feels like exploitation so anyways um they probably see it i'm sure as bringing awareness but to me it feels insensitive yeah And, you know, like again, not claiming I know the exact perfect way to do this, but I feel like... something about this just being on a fucking TLC show about this fucking funny family is not the way yeah and they also talked about how El Salvador has some of the hardest restrictions and waiting periods on adopting children out of those

orphanage so they were like minimum it's gonna take you five six years six years yeah like so it's not even like this could bring awareness and have people If they wanted to reach out and try to be like, hey, why don't we look into adopting from this country? They pretty much said, look at all this horrible shit. It ain't going to happen. So we're just doing it for ratings. Yeah. Because I feel like even on other, quote, reality shows, if they...

There's episodes where they do things that are like that, and at the end, they'll have a blurb that's like, if you want more information on this, or if you think you want to help out in any way, here's organizations that you can donate to. There was nothing like that. I guess to be slightly fair, I don't know that that would end up on the DVD. I'm not sure. That I don't know. Maybe the original airing did. I don't know. But I don't know.

The whole thing just made me very uncomfortable. Very, very sad for them. And just to make it all worse, we had to close out the episode with them singing Silent Night. So, you know, as if this couldn't have been bad enough. And that's how the episode ended. Yeah. Yeesh. This one was an emotional one for me. Yeah. I didn't take a lot of notes because I...

I kind of instantly got over, once again, white Christian TV family gawking at poor brown people. I got over it really quickly. So I didn't really write a whole lot of notes. I did write the stuff about... kind of like the one piece of genuine emotion that I've seen so far in this show. And then the one funny thing that actually happened was my girl, Jessa, she's talking about.

how the bugs are she was talking about what's different there and and the sleeping you know the sleeping arrangements and kind of those different things and she's like i don't know there's a lot of things here that are just very different from from our country and she was like even the bugs are different and as she's saying that like this giant fly flies in front of her face and she's like i just thought that was pretty funny it's like the biggest

It's huge. Well, there's a George Lopez joke about going back to Mexico to visit family. And he was like, the thing you never realize is that the flies there are 10 times bigger than the flies we have here. He was like, you wake up in the middle of the night because you hear feet landing in your room.

feet landing and he was like and then i turn on the light and i'm like hey take my shirt off you're gonna stretch it that's funny god we had a couple big flies in our old kitchen where i was like what the fuck is that like it's

It's unbelievable how big they can get sometimes. It's disgusting. But yeah. So that's it for me on that episode. What about you? No, that was it. I think... it continues spoiler alert it continues next episode so it keeps going yeah i i think it's i think the work that's being done in a lot of these countries for the most part by like helping them is really good but

it's that thing of it's like doing nice things and then putting it all over instagram that's like is it worth it feels like well i feel like so many of the i'm just have such a thing with ministry because i'm like you're going and bringing them food but then really what they're there for is to be like you want to be uh baptist like

us like that's what it really is hey if you join our faith you'll get more rice like that's how that feels right yeah i don't know i could go on about it but i won't for right now All right, so we'll take a little break, and Vic seems to have left us alone. Vic's been back, so we'll be right back. Muchas gracias, senor. So we're back from a more extended break than normal. Normally we just take like sometimes 5-15 minutes maybe, right? Yeah. We were gone about two hours. It is Halloween.

Handing out candy to the chillins. We've never been here during Halloween because I've mostly worked and then Whitney's been like at like an in-laws house. Yeah, but like one of my sisters. We've been here four years and this is the first Halloween we've been at home. Yeah. So we got a, I mean, it wasn't a crazy amount of trick or treaters. Mildred could have done without any. She was like, oh God, here we go. All these kids. But enough. I felt like we got the experience. It was fun.

We had our final festive meal of the month. I've been making festive meals all month long. What have I been making? mummy dogs what else did i make mummy dogs were good no i made other stuff oh we had like a black charcoal burger we had like pizza tonight was spider web dip so that was the grand finale so like bean and guacamole dip yeah with like spider webs of sour cream and cheese on the ends and stuff yeah that was the the final meal tonight for the

For the festive season before we move on to the next. Winnie loves Halloween. We turned on all the candles. We had Adam's family playing when we were waiting for people to show up and stuff. I preach festivity. yep that's my thing i love a fucking holiday i love a fucking theme what was the uh what was the desk nameplate that they got you at your last job oh um

It was like holiday cheer coach or something like that. Holiday cheer captain. There you go. Holiday cheer captain. And it was obviously like Christmas themed, but I think it. I put it out for. I think you hit your stride in October. Oh, God, I fucking come alive. Like I told you guys, I am in like a muted, cave-like sort of depressive state all through the... summer months especially here in arizona good god it's terrible phoenix specifically

There are some not so terrible places in Arizona. But no, Phoenix is fucking awful in the summer. I'm coming back alive. She loves winter clothing. And I also feel like... our cat Mildred is the same way oh it's couch season I feel like Mildred loves the holidays like she cuddles with us at night we call it couch season because as a family we're couching

anyways this has been a whole thing we were gone for two hours because it's halloween night but we're back for the deep dive yeah and mildred's back sit next to me editing this podcast she was like thank god all those children are fucking gone mom and dad turned off the fucking light They're gone. She says they're loud. They're so abrupt. Ugh. Anyways. So for today's deep dive inspired by the horrific episode of today.

We're going to talk about adoption. The main resource for this deep dive is the basic care bulletin booklet number five titled, Make Wise Decisions on Adoption. So these basic care bulletins are 20 booklets. It's a series created by the Medical Institute of America, commonly referred to as MTIA. which is a ministry created by the one and only Bill Gothard to, quote, train men and women to assist families in making wise decisions about health care issues.

You said this was bulletin number five? Yes. Like Mambo number five? Yep. Bulletin number five. a little bit of jessa in my life a little bit of ginger yeah um so yeah but yeah just what we fucking need is this fucking culty fundy man giving us all medical advice Just what the world needs. Remember, MD, ministry director. Right. Okay, so let's find out what Bill has to say about adoption, shall we? Oh, man, it's a good thing I'm sitting down.

So this care bulletin is 46 pages long. That's a lot of care. And it covers six main points, which are how is adoption defined in scripture and in state law? What does God's testimony on adoption teach? What factors should be considered before giving a child up for adoption? Number four, what factors should a couple consider before adopting a child? Number five, what factors should an adopted child understand? And then the last one is...

Is there ever a time to remove an adopted child from the home? I feel like all of this is going to be horrific. So we're not going to cover all of these in depth. I mean, there's a lot of stuff to cover. 46 pages. So we're not going to dive into all of them, but most. And a huge chunk of these 46 pages of bullshit. and there are six subtopics basically, is taken up by the very typical Bill bullshit of giving those weird little anecdotal stories.

so there's a ton of them in this so i'm going to be narrowing it down to the best there's just so much like it took me hours just to read the 46 pages and then i'm like okay now i gotta narrow down I also just wanted to note to like point out that I noticed that in this text for the very first time I I saw that these stories that he likes to tell these little anecdotes.

are for the first time that i've noticed are being referred to as case studies when i don't recall any previous text saying that they just kind of like gave a heading to the story and like went into the story right Okay. I can't help but think that he maybe thinks that this is somehow legitimizing it more by calling it a case study. Yeah, it gives it some street cred. That gives it more legit.

it makes me think of that do you remember that one boss i had that my director i had like two jobs ago he thought if he called anything a program Like it made it like a thing. Like we'd be in a meeting and he'd be like, oh, Whitney, tell everybody about the bread program. And I'm like, bread program? You mean the fucking bread box? The new acrylic bread box you had me buy? Because it was a...

It was a hospital, like cafeteria. Anyways, you make your own sandwich. You could... uh like you make your own toast or whatever he was like buy a new bread box and then all of a sudden that was a bread program yeah so you know add the word program onto it i remember when i was at my last property

The chef, I was the banquet chef and the chef that was up in the restaurant sent a giant email out that was like, I wanted to let everybody know that our summer rehydration program has started. And what it meant was that she was making like. bulk packets of Gatorade and just like having them in the restaurant but it's a program exactly and it was she was that person that like over inflated everything she did so the fact that she was like our summer rehydration program was...

kind of embarrassing that she did that that's how i felt about this bread program like it's a fucking acrylic bread box yeah but you call it program and it's legit and it's like here it's like well if i call it a case study it sounds medical right exactly yeah she was an awful like awful restaurant chef but it was like oh but you mix some gatorade let's give you some kudos so this is a case study now okay okay um

Okay, so let's get started. I'm skipping over the number one, which is definitions, because who cares? It's nothing groundbreaking. So we're going to skip to under section two, which was what does God's testimonies on adoption teach? And the first main point he makes is that the modern concept of adoption is different from the early biblical days.

where God emphasized the responsibility of the extended family to care for every child born into the family. So he's saying that God desires to keep families intact And to illustrate this point, he uses the part, he references the Bible verse numbers. Can you hear that? It's a really loud airplane. That's really loud. Or helicopter. Yeah. Numbers 27, 8 through 11. If a man die and have no son, then ye shall...

Cause his inheritance to pass to his daughter. And if ye have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. And it goes on and on and on. It's a really long one. But it goes... He says this inheritance law, like these inheritance laws in the Bible reinforce and emphasize family responsibility, which is funny because I don't feel like that really sounds like.

what he's trying to twist it into but correct whatever he's like this is family responsibility um so straight out of the gate he's kind of shitting on the idea of adoption it's like keep it in the family is what he's really getting at. He does say, though, that the Old and New Testaments instruct people to father the fatherless, and he does acknowledge Moses and Esther as being adopted.

But he gives special emphasis on Esther and how her adoption follows the biblical directive of relatives caring for members of their own family. But again... Get the vibe of some cherry picking here. Yeah, definitely. Because I feel like there's a whole lot of instances in the Bible of forms of adoption. Yeah. So he really seemed to want to drive that point home.

And I think you'll kind of understand more why on this later. So is it like don't adopt people from outside your family, only adopt people that are like related to you? Yeah, keep that in mind. Okay. That's kind of the vibe. So then we're moving on to number three, which is what factors should be considered before giving up a child for adoption. So first he asks if the adoption is motivated by guilt.

He goes on then to say that the majority of adoptions today are the result of conceiving out of wedlock. Gasp. I am gasping. My flabber is gasped right now. I am Anna in the booth of Gator Landing. I'm gasping. He says in these cases, they usually feel tremendous guilt.

for violating god's principles of course oh that's and with that guilt comes confusion for the mother in her decision regarding what to do with this child her decision yeah their decision okay um if she doesn't resolve that guilt he says quote it will continue to bring destructive results to the mother

I still feel like that puts all of the onus on the mother. But everything is just so dramatic, too. Like, so dramatic. Okay, now let's hit you with the very first case study. And I am doing air quotes. I want everybody to know that every time I say case study. There are little quotations around this. I can confirm air quotes. She is currently air quoting. Can confirm. For all my Litter Kinney fans out there. In this one.

A 19-year-old girl gets knocked up during a, quote, period of rebellion. But she later decides, you know, at this point she's wanting to rededicate her life to the Lord. So apparently the guy that did the knocking, he is a Christian. That's me knocking. He is a Christian, but the girl, however, quoting the wording of this cracked me up. The girl, however, quote, recoiled at the thought of marrying him.

He must be a sweaty pest type. So he was good enough to smash, but not good enough to marry. I mean, which happens. Not every smash, you know, not every guy you... Facts. You know? Facts. So, I mean, I can't blame her. You're not expecting every single fucking... They're not all winners out there, let me tell you. Not every time do you knock boots, as the old people say, ends in marriage, you know.

So she's emotional, as happens, about being pregnant. And she considers adoption, but lean towards abortion for reasons such as not being ready to be a mother. Valid reason. The next one is, quote, if my grandparents find out, it will bring them to their graves. Oh my goodness. Rejection from her friends. And finally, quote, I know that I deserve this judgment.

but I cannot bring myself to realize that this is actually happening to me. Okay. Which Bill says, of all the things, that last one is the most significant of them to address. Because, you know, who the fuck cares about actually being ready to be a mother? Of course. Let's focus on the judgment. So Bill says this girl is living under the false idea that the pregnancy itself...

Is a judgment from God. Regarding her sin. The sex. And you know why she would ever get that idea. Is just like so silly. You know, I don't know, maybe because religion harps on sin, judgment, and punishment all the time. I don't know where she got this silly little idea. Wild, right? The way you said the sex reminded me of the movie Juno.

I love that movie. And they ask her how long it's been. And she was like, well, it's been about three. It's been about two months since the sex. Like she says it that way. So he says, though, that a child is never a curse, but always a gift from God. He says, quote, God opens the womb and God closes the womb. The next part I'm sure is super comforting for this 19-year-old girl. I mean, are you ready? He says, quote, The curse of promiscuity is not the child.

but shame and guilt and the inability to enjoy the gift of your child in the way that God intended. So don't worry, honey. The child isn't the curse. The crippling shame and guilt. That'll get you. Like, that's supposed to make that feel better? Yeah. That's not the child. It's the shame and guilt. Don't get me wrong. Like I grew up Catholic and I feel like Catholic is like the religion of guilt. And that's just.

Everything about that's weird. But it's, like, it's just the funny, like, the way of wording it. Like, no, no, no, no. It's not that. This is the. This is the. Like, how is that helpful at all? Like, that's not reassuring. That's not encouraging. Anywho. So he goes on to say that this belief that the pregnancy is God's judgment makes many girls believe that abortion or giving up their child for adoption is the only way to remove that judgment for their sin.

So this case study then goes on to say that the girl seems to accept now that her unborn child is a gift from God, but is now overcome with bitterness and says, quote, why is it that a fellow? can be immoral, and nothing happens to him, but a girl has to live with the pregnancy. Love the word, the fellow here. The fellow. Personally, I would say chap. But fellow's still pretty good. What are you, British? This geezer. This little chap. So, Bill, with his never-ending encouragement, as he has...

Tells this girl that God does judge the immoral fellow. My brawn fellows. With guilt and shame. But he gives the girl the gift of the child so she can... quote, raise up a godly seed. Which is gross. I hate the word seed in any context pertaining to any form of baby making. She doesn't even like gardening. No, no. Unless it's talking about gardening or like ranch flavored Dave's, I want nothing to do with it. So gross. Godly seed. Ugh.

Don't want to hear it. So leave it to Bill to give this girl one more thing to feel great about. He says her biggest sin in this whole situation, the one that actually nailed Jesus to the cross, this is what he says. oh okay was her rejecting jesus as the lord of her life he says quote as long as she was the boss of her life she would continue to make wrong and damaging decisions

So once again, it's her fault. Yeah. But all I know is next time I make a bad choice, I'm just going to be like hashtag boss of my life. I'm going to have shirts made. It's going to be like wrong and damaging decisions. Hashtag boss of my life. Boss of my bad decisions. So this intense case study ends with the young girl confessing to having been the boss of her own life. Shame on her. And repenting for her sins. There you go.

So let's talk a little more about just some of these unwed mothers we keep hearing about. Them. Yes. And what their fathers, the fathers of these unwed mothers are supposed to do. Those fellows. no no that's the guy that knocked her this is the father of the unwed girl he's not doing good god i hope he's not doing the knocking this um

So the father, he's supposed to encourage the daughters and the baby's father to get married as to establish the family on the principles of God's word, a.k.a. Shotgun Wedding. That was going to say, yeah, that's exactly what it was going through with. That's exactly what that means. Yeah. So the next quote was just so ridiculous, I had to include it. And it's, quote, over the years, we have listened to many parents regretfully state.

If only we had encouraged our daughter to marry the father of her first baby, we might have avoided further tragedies in her life and the totally unacceptable marriage that she is presently in. number one sounds totally fucking fake and made up am i right yes and number two why is it that you're somehow assuming like the first guy that did the knocking is somehow so much better than the second one like

Like, what is this idea that, like, if she had just gotten married? Because, you know, we've all seen that, you know, having a child fixes every marriage. Yeah. Yeah, suddenly. It also denies the fact that those feelings of attraction are normal in that age group of people.

But it's like, the second that you have a ring on your finger, it's okay. Yeah. It's so weird. Yeah. But if there are reasons why the dad... doesn't want them, the daughter, to marry the knocker or that knocker refuses to marry her. He is to accept the father at this point, like the girl's dad. He's supposed to accept the baby into his own family and instruct the family to view the child as an opportunity and responsibility for the whole family and not as a mistake.

You're not a mistake. You're a responsibility. That's so much better. It's like my mom telling me, you're not an accident. You were a... Surprise. Because accidents are bad and surprises are good. That's in Roseanne, though. I know. Darlene tells DJ that he was an accident. He gets all upset and he goes to Roseanne and is like, Darlene says that was an accident.

And she's like, or no, Darlene says I was a mistake. And Roseanne's like, you weren't a mistake. Like, a mistake's not something you want. Like, an accident's something that you didn't know you were. You know, you're a surprise. Yeah, that's what my mom always told me. So just a reminder, keeping you where we're at, we're still under factors to be considered for giving up a child for adoption. Okay. He says you need to consider the rejection of most adopted.

uh most the rejection most adopted children feel okay um and then he just tells stories of kids feeling rejected by both sets of their parents neither none of the case studies i i couldn't get into i had to make cuts somewhere so we're moving past this one uh he also says that the regrets of the mother need to be considered okay

And he goes on to say that one of the regrets a birth mother may have is that they have failed to consider the emotional and financial security that they surrender when they give up a child. kids be expensive that's not the direction it goes um so the first the only thing he really used to illustrate the emotional side of things is he posts like a letter that a mother wrote to her son that she put up for adoption like a year after putting him up

It's like kind of just like, oh, I love you, whatever. But then he tells this stupid fucking story that, of course, I had to share where a 45-year-old pastor's wife ends up having a baby girl and supposedly... Her friends were telling her to give it up because she was just too busy and too old. Oh. I call bullshit because I do not believe that.

a pastor's wife like people are telling a pastor's wife like actively like give up your fucking child i don't believe this story uh just sounds made up but anyway so she tells them that well when you're 60 you and your husbands will be all alone But when I'm 60, I'm going to have a godly 15-year-old daughter to keep me company. But it is also pointed out, so here's the financial part.

It's pointed out that the parents have the prospect for financial assistance from their kids if they should need it, which just illustrates again how these people pump out kids for their own benefit. you get them to clean your house you get them to raise your younger kids and then they're expected to support you if you need it so got it correct the value of the children is on what you can get out of them

So you were thinking financial, like kids are expensive. No, they're saying, well, if you give up this kid for adoption, you're giving up the opportunity for them to take care of you. That's what he's saying. It's so bad. Total opposite direction. Yeah. So now we're on to number four, which is factors to consider before adopting a child. So first he asks if the motive to adopt is to love or be loved.

And that when a couple adopts to meet their own emotional needs, they aren't capable of, quote, administering wise and loving discipline. He goes on with another one of his air quotes case studies. Can confirm. Of a child who was the apple of his parents' eye. But despite that, he was very rebellious, angry, and wanted to die. And that things only got better for this child.

Once he got away from the, quote, overindulgent attention from his adoptive parents. Which is funny because at the simple core, he seems to be saying that adoptive parents tend to be overindulgent. and using the child to meet their emotional needs. So let's just pretend that for the sake of argument, these parents are being overindulged. I'm just, you know, argument's sake.

What does that actually have to do with being an adoptive parent? Because biological parents can overindulge and rely on their children to meet their emotional needs.

like living through their parents you see like see like that in like sporting parents where it's like my my sports dreams never happen so i'm gonna push you really hard into this but he seems to just be pushing like they're like they're wanting that love so that's why they adult they adopted a child but people have children for the same reasons or can be overindulgent having by that has nothing to do with an adoption thing that's a people thing agree so i'm like this is the

most asinine argument i've ever heard and you see biological parents that like over inflate what their kids do yeah like and the and they're their biological kids nothing to do with adoption whatsoever

I feel like that has to do with the emotional maturity of the parent more so than the fact that this child is my biological parent. I feel like he's pulling on the whole idea of like if they adopted they were desperate. And so they're just like desperate, desperate, desperate. But it's like people.

That's also not the only reason why people adopt. It's crazy. But he follows it up. So I'm asking all these questions in my head. I'm like, that's a fucking... person thing not an adoption thing but he follows it up by saying adoptive parents are afraid to discipline their child for fear fear they will turn against them Every parent's worried about that. Every parent fears the fact that if you pull the reins too hard, the kids are going to buck.

Like, that's just normal with an adult person raising a child. Well, and then there's other ones that take it to the extreme. And then they're like fucking control freaks. Yeah. There's a range here in parenting, you know. That has nothing to do whether they're your... biological kids or not it's crazy i'm disgusted i'm not gonna lie yeah then he asks if as potential adoptive parents if you're willing to have an open adoption and warns of how closed adoptions

Promote abortions. He says in a survey of 150 unwed mothers. Where's the fellows? 150 unwed mothers that they were given three choices one keep the child to put up the child for adoption or three have an abortion he says most chose to keep the child but after being told that that wasn't an option They were asked what their second choice was and that then 85% chose abortion. And their reasoning supposedly for that was because it was too painful for them to know that their child was alive.

but not to have contact with them. And that left them with quote continual anguish. Hmm. But, and then he ends it with. Oh, my God. Here we go. The funny part, though, is if you notice in those options, he didn't say closed versus open adoption. It just said adoption. Right. So you're sitting here railing against, you know.

Closed adoptions being the culprit of abortions. But you didn't even differentiate it. It's just a funny thing. If you're going to... lean into this so hard you didn't even like fully back that up in your supposed survey I call bullshit on this survey but like who's taking this fucking survey but it's just funny that's not even what you said

Once again, it's like what you talked about where they're dealing with extremes. It's only the extreme of whatever ranking or rating that they're looking at. There's no nuance. I'm sorry. At the end of the day, we're human beings. There's nothing but nuance. Nothing is as absolute as they make it out to be. Correct.

But it's a lot easier to put it into that box where it's like, well, that's the thing. Yep. Yeah. So next he asks, potential adoptive parents, are you prepared for, quote, tensions which may come from conception after adoption? And he cites how many women have become pregnant shortly after adopting, after years of being barren, which is true. That is actually true. That happens quite a bit. But he attributes this to the women's bitterness.

at not being able to conceive and that they let go of that because of gaining a child via adoption. So they become more at peace. But he says they could have gotten that same peace and let go of that bitterness. from quote totally surrendering her longings for a child to the lord and rest in his supernatural ability to open her womb which is to me a very roundabout way of saying adoption goes against god's plan Doesn't it kind of feel that way? Yes. Yeah, it's all gross.

So the next thing for potential adoptive parents to consider is if their whole family confirms that adoption is God's will. It just gets worse. He says, quote, one practical way to protect an adopted child is to make sure every extended family member is in wholehearted agreement with the adoption. You gotta...

Call your Uncle David and see what he says about your adoption. That's what he's saying. Well, at least the male extended family. Let's be real. The women don't matter. We don't want to hear from the women. He says if even one family member is against the adoption, he can project rejection on the child through cutting comments and attitudes. Which he then...

Follows up with the horrific story of an adopted child who was rejected and treated poorly by his piece of shit aunt. So that's one of his other case studies. I just paraphrased it to a sentence, you know. But the whole thing is just asinine. It's like, hey, guys, if I adopted a child, would you be like a dick to them? Because if you're going to be a dick, I won't do it. And if that was the case.

It feels like it's putting the onus on not only the mother, but the adopted child and not the shitty aunt. No, yeah, I know. It's like, number one, you don't need the approval of anyone besides the two parents here. um and if i was talking to my butcher and they said they didn't want me to get an adoption so it's like if they have a problem they're the problem

Yes. Yes. Like it's insanity to me. That's going to be. So to me, it just feels like another way to try to like, you know, to say you shouldn't adopt without saying it. Oh, 100%. So we're still under factors to consider before adopting. We're moving on to the final subtopic, which addresses the sins of the forefather.

He starts by saying that, quote, many adoptive parents are shocked and disillusioned when their adoptive children fail to respond to genuine love and spiritual training. We love that word training. He says this is due to parents failing to, or I'm sorry, falling victim to the, quote, humanistic philosophy that a child is simply a product of his environment.

So now I'm sidestepping for one second, and now I'm referencing Men's Manual Volume 1, where it says, quote, The sins of fathers are passed down to third and fourth generations. Which is very oddly specific and really fucking weird. Not the fifth. By fifth, do they all drop off? That third and fourth, that'll get you. Yeah, exactly. So it gives several case studies.

of this but the one i'll focus on is a couple that adopted a baby girl the father said quote she looked up at me with a cold stare her eyes gave me a hateful look Then her face turned red and she began crying in a loud voice. Sounds like a fucking baby to me. Sounds like gas.

This adopted baby's crying all the time. Get her some gripe water or like a windy. Isn't that that nose freedom thing? Like the windy thing. Somebody get that. You know, this kid has gas. That's what it sounds like to me. She's red faced. She's crying. She's got a hateful look. I look very hateful when I have gas. So the father then remembers the teachings of, you know.

the sin being passed down through generations and he thinks to himself quote is it possible the bitterness of the mother and father were passed on to this little baby oh man And you're taking that into your household. He says he remembers that the baby was conceived via an immoral relationship and that the mother was very bitter towards the father. So, of course.

He then prays to have the consequences of the sin of bitterness to be removed. And what do you know? She smiled, cooed, and then there was no more hatred in her eyes. Like the gas was passed. Sounds like she farted to me. That's a very apt metaphor for what we're fucking listening to. It's bad smelling and it's offensive.

Sounds like she farted. So there's a shit ton of stuff on this topic. To keep it moving, I'm just covering a few things. This whole thing about forefathers could be a deep dive in itself. But he does say, though, that children are not guilty of their parents' sins. And everyone is responsible for their own sins. Duh.

so it's like why the fuck is this even a factor then like where if you're gonna then say that why the fuck is this a factor so but what he does say is the children are supposed to acknowledge the sins of their forethought forefathers but not confess to them because it's not their sin what

So it's bad and it gets passed down, but you just have to acknowledge it, but you don't have to confess for it. But it's bad enough to be like, it just doesn't make any sense. Yeah. If it's not your fault, why do you have to do anything? Why do I have to even acknowledge it? Yeah. oh by the way um my great great grandfather like i mean what the fuck yeah um so i'm gonna leave you with one final story on this one

A woman says her eight-year-old daughter is suddenly having night terrors. Has she tried burning a cabbage patch doll lately? Because that seemed to work for that one family. So this child has become paranoid. And she began speaking badly of herself. The mom asked the Lord why her daughter is in bondage and torment, which is a whole other topic.

But after a week of praying, she says God spoke to her and reminded her of how when she, the mother, was eight years old, her own mother left her to become a prostitute. And she had been bitter and resentful. So God is telling her if she forgives her own mother, her daughter would be set free from this bondage.

Now the reason I told this story specifically out of a bunch of stories that they told is because I wanted to point out that this story does not involve an adopted child. This is a biological situation. Okay. So even if they're licking up this bullshit, this illustrates how supposedly in a biological family, like this is what happened. So what the fuck is the point you're trying to make? Yeah. This happens. I'm not saying it happens, but to them. If this is the argument you're going to use.

This just happened in a biological family. What the fuck is your point? Why are you railing about adoption when you're saying these things happen in a biological family too? I don't get it. so to me i think the roundabout thing here is that you don't always know the sins of the forefather of the adopted children and that that's what makes it so like risky right which is

Why I think the whole keeping the family message, which as I said, I think we'll understand more later. I think this is it. Because if we're talking about sins of the forefather, if we don't necessarily know all their sins, you don't know what to confess. or acknowledge not confess i'm sorry you don't know what to acknowledge see how you just like when you put together all the little points that he's trying to make but without fucking saying it this is what he's fucking saying okay

Is that how you take it or is that just? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to close out with this last horrific section of the booklet titled, Is There Ever a Time to Remove an Adopted Child from the Home? So he asked what should an adoptive parent do when they have followed all the proper guidelines of loving discipline and the adopted child rebels against them and disrupts the entire family.

He says a decision should be made and motivated by love for each person involved, but there are some situations in which the most loving action would be to place the adopted child in a new setting. return them that's so disgusting yeah that's exactly what that is i hope he kept the receipt so he tells two case studies for this

The first one, a family adopts a daughter at 14 months old. They say she defies authority and she rejects their affection. And it gets increasingly bad over time, apparently. You mean like... Kids in general. Right. So she's now 16, and they tell her that they're sending her back to her home country. Yeesh. Ooh, that makes it even worse. I know. Oh, God, that's such a wrinkle. I know. That's such a wrinkle.

They said that she didn't believe them to show her that they're serious. They placed her in another home until all the arrangements can be made because they're like, we're serious. But now, of course, they claim that she is happy and in her new home. Yeah, probably because she's getting away from fucking people who don't want her. She's happy in her new home and they have regular contact with her. And they ended by saying, quote.

There is more fellowship between us now than there ever was when she was in our home. We're sorry we didn't take this step sooner. Oof. But like let's not acknowledge. I know I already said this. But are we not going to acknowledge that maybe she's happy. Because she felt like you guys didn't fucking want her. Yeah. Maybe that's why she's happy to be gone. Yeah. Like.

There's a leadership person that I follow that does like TED Talks and stuff. And he brings up layoffs. Like in the business sector layoffs. And there's a mindset in the business world where when it comes to money and it comes to numbers, it's really easy to axe all these people because it'll make your... spreadsheet look better yeah and his whole thing is like positive examples and i'm not going to go into them but positive examples of like when you have a

an executive board that says you didn't make all these layoffs and the people in charge are like but i'm not going to lay off these human beings who rely on us to provide for their family the example that he gives in his ted talk is you wouldn't lay off a member of your family Like you wouldn't tell them, hey, we're not making as much money these days. We're going to have to let one of you kids go. Because when it's your family, you see the human side of it. Exactly.

Everything about this is gross. It is. So now we're going to do the second story. And it's extra disgusting because the couple literally blames everything wrong in their life on having this adopted child. it's really it's sickening honestly so just prepare like i see tim's got a cocktail in his hand take a drink uh they said that they didn't realize that the adoption was the root of their problems at the time

They see it now, apparently. They say that adopting was God's... They thought that adopting was God's will, but now they realize that all the roadblocks that came into place during their adoption were... There are signs that but they ended up finding work around around them. So apparently they had a hard time getting his visa. So they actually ended up getting their state senator involved.

And they say, but when they really should have been submitting to their quote, God given authority and viewing the civil authorities as ministers of God for their good. So they're like, that was sign number one. They also blame all of their finances on the kid, too, which is insanity. Tim's face just went like... Because before his adoption, they say that they were debt-free and owned all their cars and their home. But within two weeks of his arrival, they began a financial downward spiral.

clearly the child's fault you know well yeah they say quote i don't mean to blame our son yes you do then what the fuck are you doing We believe God allowed our eyes to be blinded in a way that they never had been before. So wait, so God blinded you? Like, what the fuck is this? Like, the fucking... jumble like what what are you saying i also feel like that statement in general is problematic because it's the it's the statement of well i don't mean to mean racist

And you know that it's going to be followed by something super racist. We don't mean to blame our adopted child for our financial problems. Big giant bitch. They also blame him for... deteriorating relationships in their life such as friends and family because people quote thought things got too wild with their kids around

So they stopped inviting them to things. But of course they claim that prior to adopting this child, their kids had a reputation of being mellow and obedient. So in their eyes, this kid's fucking up their lives again. So they sent this son away to a children's home and they say he is happy and thriving again because he's not in a home full of people who fucking hate him. Exactly.

um yeah he's probably just thrilled to not be fucking blamed for every goddamn thing i mean what's the point of having kids if you can't blame them for everything i blame mildred for everything And what do you know, within two weeks of the kid being gone, supposedly her husband's business that... you know, wasn't making any money for five years, which is ironically the amount of time they had this child, suddenly out of nowhere starts making money just like hand over fist.

And now the family is at peace and they've had another biological child. And it's worth noting that the mother mentions that they, quote, took things into their own hands with adoption. And it's because the wife, her three previous children were all C-sections and she didn't want to do a C-section again. So they thought. At the time, she says that God was leading them into adoption and that now she realizes that she was taking it into her own hands and that wasn't part of God's plan, basically.

But my whole thing, like, is God right or wrong? Because I feel like a lot of this is like, well, that's the direction that God was telling us to go into. And then when it didn't work out, all of a sudden it was my problem. But wait, but God was sending you in that direction. So was it right or wrong? so do you are you ever really here like it's what the whole thing is like it's always convenient

But so were you listening to yourself or were you listening to God? And if you were listening to yourself, how do you know you're not listening to yourself? Like, you know, like it's just you could go in a circle with this shit. It's so convenient. I'm so angry right now. Like, I'm angry. This episode is disgusting. top to bottom. I was disgusted with the actual recap. I'm disgusted with this. But this, I'm going to finish just with this story real quick.

She says, quote, in short, I feel that by refusing to have another baby and adopting instead, I dropped the bomb that nearly destroyed our family. It did destroy our family life as we knew it. Well, your family life wasn't obviously that strong. Yep. And that's the end of it. This entire booklet, they end on that story. The story ends and that is it. There's no closer. There is no nothing. Well, yeah, that's the big home run swing. Yep. So now I feel like here's where we dissect this.

How many of those stories do you feel were actually fucking real? Because it feels like none of them are real. What's funny is, like, I think it's real that people are assholes and gave up their return to their children. Agreed. Like, you know, but...

What's actually real in these stories is... two percent of what they're saying like i think they returned these kids and then felt guilty about it so they have it was like yeah who can i blame for this so i don't feel guilty because i'm a crappy parent

So I want to ask you, what are your thoughts? Like, what do you think the overall message or stance is on adoption coming from this booklet? Don't adopt. Okay. So. I definitely took it as he's against it, but just does not want to come out and directly say it. Agree. I think he's giving you all of these things that say, look at how bad your life will be if you adopt a child. Yeah. I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm not going to tell you not to, but here's a million things.

that could go really bad it reminds me and i'm gonna make a reference that's funny even though this is not funny there's a simpsons episode where bart and lisa are kind of going at it and at one point bart goes I'm not going to hit you, but I'm just going to swing my arms like this. And he starts swinging his arms in a circle. And he starts walking closer to her. And Lisa goes, well, I'm not going to kick you. I'm just going to start kicking the air.

like this and she starts kicking the air and it's them slowly moving towards each other like swinging like that's what that feels like it does i'm not going to tell you not to have kids but i'm going to tell you these horrific stories And if you choose to do them, it's on you. What a douche, man. And I just think it's really telling that he starts off with the whole keeping in the family.

type thing and then he come down arkansas and then he ends it with giving kids back like those are the bookends yeah those are the bookends exactly i don't know i i feel Like, from a very young age, I felt like my natural course of life was to be a parent. I know that sounds weird. From a young age, I was like, I feel like I want to be a good parental figure. And I think in my personal life, it made me a good leader.

Like amongst the people in my career and, you know, my leadership guru, Simon Sinek, always talks about being a good leader is like being a good parent. Like everybody has the ability to, but... they don't have the capacity to and sometimes they don't want to but it's like you want the same things as a good parent you want to like cheer for them when they do something good you want to reprimand and coach when they do something bad and and that's how you create a well-rounded person yeah

And I think for me, like that's been such a part of my identity. since I was in, like, high school. Like, I know it sounds dumb, but, like, in high school I was like, I feel like I'll be a good dad, like, someday. So it's like, I think that's why I'm taking so much offense to this, because it just plays so fucking fast.

and loose with the fact that that like you're bringing this adopted child into your household and they need something like they're lacking something and you're supposed to be that and you bring them in and then you're judgy and you're fucking aunt deborah's judgy and then you blame them for all of your problems like it's like it's offensive yeah it is

And I feel it's as if he thinks as long as he sprinkled in a few things like children are a gift or those few success stories like, you know, that kid finally farted like, oh, here's a success story. I feel like. He thinks if he sprinkles those in, it's not like he's bashing adoption entirely. But to me, the overall tone was against it. I want to karate chop this man in the throat.

Being generous, and this is generous, it would be that he is being... giving like a very extremely cautionary like whatever no he's against it he better be cautionary when i karate chop him in the throat But the other part that I find extremely ironic is how much emphasis he put on... All of these things that you need to think about before adopting. Now don't get me fucking wrong. I think it is a huge life decision that needs a lot of careful thought.

consideration and preparation but the ironic part to me is that they place zero emphasis on taking any form of careful consideration or preparation on having a child of your own so

You know, when I think having a child in any way is fucking huge. And, you know, I feel like a lot of times, not even just IVLP, I feel like a lot of times people just kind of... gloss over having children is not being this huge book i'm like it's a huge fucking deal like yeah like that's the next logical step like no it's a huge fucking deal yeah but you know they both come with some things that are the same

to consider but then in these different situations they also have their own specific things to consider but they're both huge huge huge things And with adoption, the focus on preparation is how the kid can ruin your fucking life and family.

it's really sad like that's what the focus is on you better be ready because it might ruin your life yeah and i think when you look at very secular um approaches to adoption like recently i've seen a lot more commercials on some things that have been about adopting kids that are older like i think adopting infants is sometimes a little bit easier because they're very young and they can be products of the environment that you throw them into.

But that's the humanistic philosophy, remember? Yeah, exactly. You know, so I've seen a lot more stuff that's like older kids that need to be adopted. Like all these kids in the episode. Yeah, like they...

If that's the route that you are going to go, the reason why it's such a huge life decision is because it's not about them. The onus is not on them to... come in and be this thing for you like the reason why it's a big decision is because you are creating an environment for them yep yeah you have to be there for them this isn't this isn't to have you blend into their world

i mean them blend into your world i'm sorry i said that opposite yeah you you need to create it so that you're you're blending with them like yeah this is all about them yeah you're creating that environment for them fuck now i'm gonna cry i know it's Also, a few times it was emphasized how, you know, God can both open and close the womb. And then there's that one story, basically about how she got this terrible child that ruined their family, that last one.

And that she blamed it on deciding on adoption versus another pregnancy. Well, that to me certainly was a deterrent type story at the very least. focusing you know on the idea of going against god's will without actually saying it like she did kind of say it yeah But like, I feel like this is what these are those instances where Bill Gothard is like, let her say it. Let her talk about God's will and going against God's will. I didn't say it, you know. And then.

Online, several former ATI, like IBLP people were saying that it was especially from their just like collective, like, this is how we remember the tone. things being regarding adoption that it was especially like a big no-no to adopt without having a child of your own biologically first. Like having kids of your own and then adopting was a little bit more acceptable. But say you're struggling to conceive, Bill Gothard sees that as God's will and that you'd be going against it to have a child.

Almost like, well, God obviously doesn't want you to have a kid, so you're not supposed to be adopting one. But if you've already had some biologically, it's more okay to adopt. And person after person was like, yeah, that's... definitely like the the takeaway that they the vibe that everybody so whether it was downright said or not that was everybody's feeling it makes me so mad fuck yeah

Because, like, if you can't, like, if you literally cannot conceive for whatever reason, like the royal you, not you, but, like, if you cannot conceive, but you can create an environment that's positive. For a child that doesn't have that. I'm getting emotional. There you go. How many episodes since I've cried? Tim needs his own tracker now. It's his own tracker. It's bullshit, man. It is.

His attitude toward adoption and children as being risky with their generational curses is just such a sad outlook, you know? But I do have to be honest. The less culty people that are out there adopting children, probably the better.

So as you know, like literally this is my closing notes to myself right now because I was on such like a fuck, like writing all of this and going through all of this. But I literally had to tell myself. So while I. condemn his views on adoption now i'm gonna get emotional no well well i think it's disgusting i'm not mad that his his feelings might deter family you know fundy families from adopting because that's that's not the type of environment they need to go into no so i'm like okay if i

I'm having to look for a silver lining in all of this to see of disgusting. That's the silver lining. Cool. You don't need to be adopting children anyway. Yeah. Like, I just think like the closest person to me. was when I was in college, my friend Jeff. And Jeff's not on social media. We haven't had contact for... since like 2007. So I don't think he listens to our podcast. But one of the things that he told me, like he was adopted at a very young age, but he also knew his father and his mother.

And he was adopted by a family. And he grew up with them. And I met him when we were both in college. And I remember him telling me that he was like... Obviously, me being conceived by these people allowed me to be here. And he's like, but they had nothing positive in my life. He met his father later. on in life oof i'm getting it um but he was like he's essentially he's a sperm donor to me like about me i guess um he was like that's my father

But this is my dad. You know what I mean? But I feel like everybody's experience is different. That's his experience. Yeah, absolutely. He had an amazing pair of adoptive parents. And that's where you get what's...

The same way all biologically have different... stories and different relationships with our parents of course the same thing happens with adoptive just because you adopted a kid does not automatically make you a good parent there are some shitty fucking adoptive parents out there there's shitty biological there's shitty adoptive yeah so but i just feel like you're already taking a very sensitive thing.

I think that the second you're adopted, there's just a little bit more sensitivity there. There's just more nuance. There's just more to work through. So you have the ones that had a very, very happy childhood with their adoptive parents. They're not really seeking any much more. They're okay with the way things are.

are cool there's then there's the ones who and I'm I have no experience with this I'm just saying from what I've seen and then there's the ones that did have a happy adoptive you know, family and life, but they're still part of them that's kind of like...

seeking something with their you know adoptive parents and then there's ones that have a really shitty experience with their adoptive parents and so then they're really clinging to trying to find or have a relationship with their body there's just so many different factors that happen that's there's just more

than there are with the straight up biological like you know because they can have all those same feelings across so many different sets of parents different people yeah so it's like they just have a lot more going on so i just feel like it's extra shitty yeah To take someone who's in a very sensitive situation and then make them feel like you're a risk. Yeah. With your generational, you know.

you know sins of your forefathers or look how you could come in and fuck everything up it's like look at josh he's biological and look at the fucking mess he did like you know it's just so disgusting to somehow act like they're the problem yeah yeah Yep. That's gross. This whole episode is gross. Yeah. Agree. Yep. Anything else you want to say? No. Can we... I think this... I think I've only cried in a couple episodes. This one got Tim. Like, even now I'm angry. Yeah, it's very upsetting.

Because it's kind of the thing where it's like you don't deserve it. Oh, no. Yeah. Agreed. Ugh. Yep. Exactly. Ugh. I need another drink. For real. That's why multiple times when I was talking, I'm like, he needs a refill. I can see it. Can I change the subject for a little happy or something? Please do.

So I didn't say this already, right? So today's Halloween. I know we talked about that. But did I say how we posted our costumes today? So today we posted our Jim, Bob, and Michelle Happy Harvest outfits. Not Halloween. We're going for picnics and bike rides and cakewalks. So we posted our little outfits today. We took them about a week ago. My hair would not Michelle.

It was a little precarious. And Whitney was a little mad at me because I hadn't cut my hair in like a month and a half. And it was way too long. It was at a point where I put a hat on and I had those little curb feelers on the side.

side like it was real bad um and so i got my haircut we had um some photo shoot stuff going on and i'm like all right i need to get cleaned up at work because i need yeah because i need to be like in front of people um and then it was like a week later that she was like hey we're gonna take that oh your hair is cut i was like he cut his hair so then he had like these super short sides where normally when he had his hair long

was a big fluffy mess but when he combs it he could have combed it jim bob style and so i was like ah and then my hair didn't work so both none of our hair was right i did have a belt clip though and i talked about it because in the main picture that we used my arm was kind of in the way but if you skip to the i did the second post that has additional photos you can see it but it's totally rigged Yeah, it's like my normal phone with like a Velcro like cable holder from a laptop.

From the cord from the laptop. Yeah, like that's all it is. So it's like velcroed in place. Like through a belt loop, yeah. Yeah, so we posted that today. So if you're not following us on Instagram, these are the types of things you could be seeing. I have to go return the shoes. I've never in my life bought something, worn it, and then returned it. She housewived it real hard. What's her name? Sonia Morgan, also Fran Fine, the nanny. I'm taking some cues from them.

like trying to thrift Michelle shoes and I'm like I can't fucking find any but then I was like wait a minute I'm gonna Sonya Morgan this shit and so I got some ugly shoes from Walmart that I need to return I just wore them to my front door I mean yep that's it could be worse whenever she says Fran fine I always think about

they were referencing when Fran entered their household. And they were like, how long since Fran entered our life? How long since we heard, if it ain't half off, it ain't on sale. If you don't watch The Nanny, I will tell you it holds up as like 90s sitcom. We make a lot of references in here that we never actually reference that we're referencing The Nanny. Yeah. But also shout out my Letterkenny friends.

So if anybody listens to Letter Kenny, let us know. Or watches Letter Kenny because it's a good show. Anyways, so those pictures you could see on our Instagram, digging up the Duggars pod. You can email us at digginguptheduggars at gmail. Can you buy us a pickle? You can buy us a pickle at buymecoffee.com slash digging up the dug. Digging up the dug. Anyways, I think we're done for tonight.

We've had a lot of crying, even Tim. Yep, I've been in it. Mucho gracias, senor. El bigo binos. El grande binos. Happy Halloween, everybody.