Episode 23 - Because, Bible

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Visit lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe that?

You know, I listen to these other podcasts that I've been listening to for years. Some of which have been around like six, seven, eight years. And at the beginning of every episode, they say the name of their podcast and they reintroduce themselves. And I was just thinking about how I'm over here and I'm just like Mackenzie. And then I just let go.

Yeah. Are we supposed to be introducing ourselves every once in a while? I think by 23, you know what's going on, right? I agree. There's also no rules. I guess I was like, am I supposed to be? Anyway, so I guess not. So we are now on episode 23, and this is the Michael episode. These are still Duggars. By last name. So last was McKenzie, and now we're Michael. These are both Anna and Pest kids. When we get to kids that have different last names, I will clue you in. Okay.

Okay, so for today's episode, it is called Oh Come All Ye Duggars, and it premiered on February 3rd, 2009. So this episode starts with a voiceover of Boob. Talking about the distractions around Christmas and how, you know, people are just, you know, out buying all these gifts. But, of course, they make Jesus the focus. Not Mariah Carey.

No, not that song. Oh, my God. I love that song. You don't love that song, do you? I actually have no issues with that song. I just think it's way overplayed. I mean, I don't disagree, but it gets me going. Okay, so then there's a scene of Joy slapping loads of gel in some kid's hair. I don't know. I couldn't tell you the kid. I'm with you on this one. Oh, so that does happen. I told you. Hey, remember how I said that there's just like, you know, in this Lost Boys arena? It happens. Oh, okay.

So she's putting like a giant, like it's one of those big pump style. Like it looks like when you'd have like the giant pump of sanitizer, but it's gel. And she's like pumping it in and then she's like brushing it in. I used to have one of those. la looks grade seven it was like amber yellow and you had the pump and everything we did at the end because um or towards like eighth grade ish because my mom that was the peak of like here

Yeah, my mom would get it from Costco because it was a lot cheaper, like per ounce. So I had the pump. So not used, but still saving the difference. That's correct. Is that used gel? Right.

So yeah, so then Boob says, I think the girls like to make some of the boys, make sure some of the boys' hair is in good shape. I would argue they don't necessarily like it. It's their job. I'm pretty sure if they didn't have to... do their little brother's hair they probably wouldn't want to they'd be okay yeah they're like but i like it yeah i like wrangling james and putting loads of gel in his hair yeah

um lego says how unlike him they use gel because you know he uses hairspray he's so mature i know right is that like is that like a rite of passage right when they start using hairspray versus um But he says that it leaves their hair like concrete. I'm not convinced that his hair isn't also concrete, but theirs just looks like wet concrete. His is folded or formed plastic. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Or, you know, is his like that shell you put on ice cream? Like if you crack, it would crack. Magic shell? Yeah, like it would crack. I always wanted that and we never got it. I've never had Matic Shell. It's not that good. It's fun, but it's not that good. So it's better up in my head? Pretty much. It's a fun crack with your spoon, but the flavor is not anything. You're not missing it. Anyways, moving on.

So Jim Bob says that he saw in the newspaper that there's a Christmas parade happening in Springdale, and he thinks it's a great opportunity for the kids to work together and build a float. And it's content for the show. Well, yeah, that's most of it. So Michelle is taking a group of the kids down to sign up for it. And as they're driving away and now that they're in the middle of nowhere. i.e. the driveway, as we learned in that one episode. Johanna goes running after the van.

and like she's crying and you know michelle's explaining to her like no you don't get to go this time and once again boob has to come and get her which mind you this is now the second time we've seen her lose her shit At the very idea of being left home with Boo. And also the fact that when they were driving away, no, there is a chance that this was staged.

I have to think about that with all reality shows. I don't think this was, though. I'm just saying there was a chance with every single scene that something was staged. But when they were driving away, she was literally just like... standing at the back bumper of the vehicle now you would assume that as a parent you would make sure that when a car is driving away you're

toddler child is not standing right by the fucking wheels that are going to be rolling around same parent same child that was in the auto shop and not giving a shit about her going up rickety stairs though yeah and that's what i'm saying like if it wasn't staged i feel like it was more evidence of the fact that he really has no idea. Yeah. Because the van drove down the road. She screamed and ran after it.

uh baby cannon stopped and opened the door and was talking to her and then then they show lego hair walking down that long driveway he sauntered yet again the no no uh sense of urgency and if you remember according to jessa was it jessa i don't know it was one of the girls um remember that was where they were changing that tire and it was in the middle of nowhere yeah so Baby Cannon stopped in the middle of nowhere to assess her child. But, you know...

So besides her being, this is the second time that her freaking out over being left behind, this is also the same one, like we said, with the rickety stairs and the auto shop. She's also the one that shit on boob.

during their uh tv appearance so that was so long ago i don't think i paid much attention to johanna my first you know go through of the show but i'm gonna be watching now because i don't know something about her i feel like she kind of knows what's up underneath it all you know yeah so um i just get that vibe from her so we need to keep a close eye on johanna going forward and one of the things when they were michelle did a voiceover when uh lego hair picked her up

and they were starting to close the doors and she's like she just needs to understand that she's not going to get to go to everything and she'll get to go later and she was like and she's going to have to we all have to learn how to deal with disappointment in our lives You said a mouthful there, Michelle. Yeah, a whole lot of these women are dealing with some disappointment.

So they end up getting to the office to enter and the lady at the desk, she asks what the float is going to be. And while Michelle is telling her that they'll be doing a live nativity scene, the look on the woman's face is... fucking hilarious it's hard to describe yeah it's like so i wrote like because yeah again i'm like how do i describe this so i said um looks like maybe she doesn't give a shit but it's trying to muster a smidge of give a shit

But then it also looks like really skeptical judgy. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it's the mouth, though. For me, it was the mouth. What was it for you? The eyebrows. If you can't figure it out, this is clearly going in visuals. But it's hard to describe. But she's just like... It is such an odd look. And I was watching it in our bedroom. We have like a long hallway that goes all the way down our house. And I laughed.

I paused it. I laughed really loud a couple times, and Whitney even came over and was like, what? And then I just pointed at the screen, and then we both laughed again. Yeah, because I'm like, yep, I know. Yeah. But then it's even funnier. Because her face is already great. This is already grade A content right here. And then it cuts to Ginger. And she's laughing. I wrote that it was Ginger, by the way. Good job.

i had a 50 50 chance you did good there um between her and jessa so then she's laughing and it makes it just more funny granted kind of like you're saying like okay this could have been editing where she Is it possible she was laughing at something entirely different? Possibly. But because it's happening in the background, you can see them talking about it. I don't know. But either way, it makes for an excellent scene. Right. And I just feel like it's a moment where they make Ginger like the us.

like it's the moment of the audience kind of joining in on the laugh and so ginger was like the us and it was pretty good yeah i like that part so now we're flashing for do you have anything else for okay so now we're flashing forward about a week or so and it's now 24 hours until the parade starts good and uh michelle is doing the most work i've ever seen her do

On any episode so far. Yep. Well, she brought those cinnamon rolls over six feet from the kitchen to the dining room table. That's true. I should add that into the mix, but I still think this is more work than that. She's actually painting all the banners for their float because they love a banner. They love a marquee. They love a banner.

um and then it's suddenly 18 hours before the parade and they're finally starting to do the real work so they are definitely rolling on dugger time as they call um and john david he built a stable and it looks pretty good they say he did it in about two hours looks pretty good

And the manger. Yep. Spoiler alert. They're doing a live nativity scene. Oh, I think I said that a little bit. Yeah. But I think they said that they used to. Didn't they say a part where they said they usually do it on the front porch of their house? Yeah. Yeah. So I think they had said that they already had the manger, but they had to build the stable because... Oh, I remember one of the little kids.

walking by and saying that oh yeah john david made all these and it took him it took him about half an hour and he was putting at the manger okay maybe i got well never mind i stand corrected so let's see oh so then they're just adding lights and stuff at this point so they finally they just have trailers and they have like the stable on it in the manger and they're just adding lights to it and then now it are those used lights

See, again. He specifically says we bought hundreds of dollars of lights. And he talks about how they're LEDs. They're LEDs, yeah. And that the doggers are green. Yep. So now it's only three hours before the parade and they're putting up the rest of the lights and they're putting the signs on the bus and also preparing candy bags to like throw out while they're, you know, on the parade route.

You could tell that they were using like old ice cream buckets. So many of them too. With like the handles that, you know. The pails. Yeah, like the plastic pail. The party pail. But there was like 30 of them. I couldn't believe. I'm like, how much? But I guess that's maybe like two weeks of Duggar ice cream. I mean, they could probably go through two or three of those just with everybody getting ice cream. Yeah. So when they're finished, it's a big happy birthday, Jesus.

banner with lights all around it and then there's a big long bible verse of course and some other little random things like joy of the world and Jesus is the light and blah blah blah crap like that

Now it's about two hours before the parade and we now get another appearance from the people from the wilderness drive-thru from a couple of episodes back because they're coming to bring animals for the parade. So apparently Jim Bob called them up and said, hey, can we get some animals? And they brought them. The thing I realized in this, as they were all kind of going over to the truck when the truck got there, was that Anna constantly looks terrified.

Yeah, I don't blame her. Constantly. Like, constantly she looks startled. I'm not scared, I'm startled. I'm startled. every time like they were just walking over to a truck and josh was saying something dumb and then they kind of like panned over and like she looked like she's just very uncomfortable like

Very unsure of herself, I feel. Yeah, I think that's probably where it comes from. Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about this later, but she's basically living with the fucking stranger that's raping her every night. So I'd be a little scared, too. So the drive-thru wilderness people, they randomly bring a little monkey named Kiwi. Real cute. It is cute. I'm not sure that's really part of the nativity story, but hey, whatever. But in the words of, you know.

Dr. Dentist Joe Martin. Why not? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Noah had two of those monkeys on his Ark, so. Yeah. Dragons or, you know, dinosaurs. Why not? So, whatever. Yep. So, they brought a goat, a donkey, and a camel. um the camels for the wise men and as boob said we call them wise guys yep and you know he was real proud of that one yep he was you know he didn't come up with that because it's actually kind of clever

We call them wise guys. So Kiwi the monkey is hanging out on Pest's neck. Poor Kiwi. And then Jim Bob says, Josh, I'll tell you what, won't be long before you have a little monkey. And this is the point where if I were to write clickbait articles, I would write one with the title, Did Jim Bob Duggar Admit to Believing in Evolution?

He just said that, you know, they're going to have a little monkey. Yeah, that's true. I think that's a good clickbait article. You know, someone hire me. I can come up with some good Duggar material. Okay. Not really worth too much talking about. I don't know if you care. One of their cameramen brings his family. He's going to work filming.

But he also has his family with him because apparently this is around Thanksgiving. So they were traveling in the area for the holidays. And so his family's with him and the kids were even actually joining in on the float. The only reason I wrote this because I'm thinking I wonder if his wife is like, this is who the fuck you're.

around all the time like like i wonder if they enjoyed it or were alarmed yeah to see it for the first time yeah so now they've they've caravanned over to the parade location and they're starting to set up And Josh and Anna, they're playing Mary and Joseph. And Pess says, it's a, quote, definitely romantic spot to be on this float. Gross. Everything about that is awful. Like, everything is just gross.

um you know tim i played mary once wow it wasn't a full-blown nativity i was very young and it was through like two songs in front of the whole church where my mom was like the little chorus lady i didn't give a shit normally i'd be very shy and like But I didn't really have to do anything except stand there. I was just pumped I got to bring my doll Sandy to church with me. So I was like, fuck yeah, I'll be merry. I can bring Sandy to church. It's a thrilling day.

You and Sandy just living it up. Dude, it was, you know, you never had to bring your fucking toys to church. I was like, fuck yes, I will bring. So it's funny that she was a girl, but, you know. So then there's this whole thing about the tow hitch. Do you care? Do you have anything you want to say about that? Their tow hitch was too small and it was kind of rusted in there. So they had to buy a big hammer to knock it out so they could put the right size tow hitch on there.

So John David did all the work. Gassed out. and then pest came over and hit it like a couple times and it came out and of course he was like oh yeah but then in the talking head jim bob was like it was really john david that did all the work so i'm like yes it was

why i suddenly i'm all like why are you all about john david right now what's going on here so then santa showed up which i enjoyed because of course they do not believe in santa That is too worldly. That is not, you know, focusing on Jesus. That's true. So Santa shows up and says, I think there's a couple that are a little on the sketchy side, referring to the kids being naughty or nice, of course.

It's like you said a mouthful there, Santa, and you don't even know. Santa fucking claws, knows what's up. But Josh says, yes, I think so, and laughs, which is not lost on us. Yep. So it's not just Santa that knows what's up, though. The camel is kind of snarling at Lego and making him very uneasy. Multiple people in this episode did say that Lego hair gets uncomfortable around animals. Yeah.

Like always. So it makes sense because there was a couple point in the wilderness safari episode that he was around animals. And you could even tell he was more awkward than he normally is. Which is saying a lot. Which is saying a lot. So I remember looking and being like, oh, okay, yeah, he's uncomfortable around large animals, which makes sense. Like, I get it.

Horses are gigantic. I've never even been near one, so I have no idea. Gigantic and like straight muscle. You know what I mean? So while it probably just is that the animals are picking up on his energy. of unease i want to believe that they're just picking up on his fucking creepy uh bullshit factor let's go with that it's like when people say if a if a dog doesn't trust a person i i believe the dog yeah yeah

So this camel doesn't really like boob. And you know what? I don't want to sidestep. I do not blame this camel for being a little fucking surly because you remember all the shit that they talked about camels on that episode? Especially Ginger. You know, Ginger was like really talking shit about camels.

so i'm sure they were and famy famy it's like i don't blame this camel he's like why the fuck am i now you want me now you want me in your fucking parade we should see if we can get that camel on the show Okay, so Jim Bob rides the camel for a little bit, but then he hands it off to Joe, and Joe rides the camel for the rest of the time. I do want to have a go back. Oh, yeah, go ahead. I feel like I've...

I spend so much of my life at work that that's a work term. So it kind of makes me feel gross that, can I get a go back? So when they were registering with Judgmental Judy or... Whatever we're going to decide to call. I think she looks like a Judy. She 100% looks like a Judy. I said she looked like a peg. I think she looks like a Judy. And I'm not even just saying it because it goes with judgmental. She really looks like a Judy. It's because she's my favorite Duggar now. Oh.

She's taken over Jabaloon Man's spot. Oh. Yeah. So he's been knocked out of a tier. Where does Jeffrey Knight end up now? So Jeffrey Knight's in second. Oh. So I'm going to say that Jabaloon Man got dropped to third. Damn. That's a big tumble. He was number one? Judy, Jeffrey Knight. Damn, he was number one. He didn't even knock down to two. He went to three. You can't move Jeffrey Knight. Oh, okay. Yeah. Got it.

Anyway, my go back was that when they were doing that, the lady told her, oh, we're going to put you in the religious category of the competition. So they were going to have a competition of who had the best float, but then they broke it up. between So since theirs was a religious base, they put them in the religious category, and they won first place. They did. So then they put the big banner thing in the bus window, and then the kids in the back had the trophy.

Jim Bob was like, this is really huge for our family. Is it? Really? Were your kids holding on for dear life and then now that they got this, they can sleep well at night? What I want to know is how many other entries there were in the religious category. Yeah. The camel thing was funny. I think there's a weird level of... I've been trying to think of the term. There's a weird level of exceptionalism that I think a lot of the kids are taught.

And you can see it when they start to recite some of the things that the parents have told them. And one of them is when they're talking about... oh yeah you know a lot of other a lot of other people you know it's just about like presents but you know or no it's a lot about gifts and whatever kid was like you know jesus's love is our gift so yeah so

So he was like, you know, so everybody focuses on those other things, but like we're different. And there's just this through line where you're, yeah, you feel like you are more exceptional than anyone else. You just get it more and everybody else is just, you know. buy used and say the different like all these things that they say are their like tenants are done in a way

To make them feel better than other people. Oh yeah. And I feel like a lot of times. Not all. I'm not saying everybody. But I just feel like there's a lot of times in religion. in general that people use it as a way to be above somebody else and it's like oh you're so much more enlightened than everybody else you chose the right team I just know so much and you guys, you know, would be so lucky if we told you all about it. Yeah. So the next.

You can write this down in history as like I'm about to say something really I never thought I'd say. But this is probably the first and hopefully the last time I can say that I'm a little bit jealous of Anna. Do you know why?

because she got to sit by that cute donkey yes she got to fucking cuddle the cutest donkey i have ever seen in my life it was either a baby or it was bred to be like a pygmy like it was so small and then it was that level of baby animal where it had a gigantic nugget head yeah like it hadn't grown into its nugget head and it had the hiccups and it was so cute it was super cute and like she just got to sit and like cuddle it and like hold it

The whole night. But I think he could sense that she's used to cuddling asses. So he was like, you know what? You've been holding on to that one for a while. Because she watched this episode like four days ago. So she's had that one in the chamber. But it was really cute. I could tell she was going to make a joke like that because she shifted in her chair like she was in serious mode.

She leaned forward a little bit. You're outing me. Why are you? So now they're kind of winding down on the parade. Just in case anybody, I didn't mention this. michelle is not a part of it she's inside the bus with like the little kids just fyi because she doesn't have a part everybody else is kind of dressed up as something michelle is probably getting a fucking break oh no though she's having to watch two little kids so maybe it's not a break never mind she's having to work more

So yeah, they're kind of just winding down. Was John Davin driving the bus?

because he was the only one that wasn't he wasn't dressed up so i'm assuming he was doing it because then lego hair was on the camel for a little bit and then was walking the rest of it and also because when john david was um hitting the toe hitch jim bob was like well i i can't do it i'm dressed like what's his excuse all the rest of the time sorry i can't give a shit about my kids because i'm wearing this outfit i'm i got shoes on

so yeah so that's my assumption that he probably was um driving because everybody else seemed to have a part that i can tell there was this really funny moment where they were starting to do like the like the the we're we're starting to you know get the straggling little film you know parts the b-roll and there's a point where he says uh you know oh the camel was really the hit of the parade and he was like

It's a great crowd out here. And he puts his arms out wide, showing that the crowd is really big. But they were already after the parade was over. And you could tell it was in the back road that got them to the parking lot because it was literally a dark, desolate country road. He's like, big crowd. He's like, we got a big crowd out here and his arms are all wide. Once again, it's just context.

oh there was tons of there was tons of people the crowd was great but they're not here yeah i know that's nitpicky but it did make me laugh that's the moment that they threw that in look at all these people here um so the end of it is just kind of you know they're you know in this big crowd and they're handing out the candy and then that's when I realized that man they couldn't be fucking cool they had to be all like uncool and they're not just giving out candy

They're giving up pamphlets about the true meaning of Christmas. Oh, are they really? Yeah, you didn't see that? No. I'm like, God. I'm like, you could have just, but you couldn't, you know? Yeah, you couldn't help yourself. Yeah, and like... It's not enough that you're doing a live nativity. You also have to give out pamphlets. I'm surprised that they weren't giving out the Duggar family postcards too. So yeah, that's kind of it for the episode. I do want to say...

Jungle Book was one of my favorite Disney movies as a kid. And when they were transitioning out from the credits... They showed the whole float, the bus, the two trailers, and behind them when they were in downtown or wherever this parade went, there was a store that was called Little Britches. I saw that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very, very end on their little, yeah.

Little britches. Since you added my jokes, I want to tell you about one that I didn't say in an episode that I still think about. Oh, self-control, huh? in the actual, because we're talking about the wilderness safari again. the part with the lion or not lions tigers where they talk about how they actually get six chickens each a day and we're like oh my god they finally don't um they're not just getting bread like everybody else is getting fucking bread

I remember being like in my head. I was like, otherwise they'd be called bagel tigers. That's pretty good. Should have used that one. I know. If people don't understand, you know, bangle tiger. Because in that, if you remember, in that truck, it was a lot of bagels. A lot of bagels. A ton of bagels. I'm like, they could have been bagel tigers.

I honestly feel like my favorite ride at Disneyland is the Jungle Cruise. Oh, I love Jungle Cruise. And I've told Whitney for years that my dream would someday to be retired and just be a Jungle Cruise skipper as a corny old man. He'd be great at Jungle Cruise. I just want to run a corndog cart, and I'd be happy. If we can be specific like that and get those jobs, I think it'd be amazing. Yep.

Random side note, one of my favorite jokes from that is when he was like, I'd love to point out some of my favorite foliage. And then he doesn't say anything and just randomly points at different spots in the jungle. And this is why you can see that simple humor works for us. That's why cuddling asses and bagel tigers is funny to us. I love wordplay. And that's why if it wasn't boob, wise guys might be funny.

I'm not going to let it be. Anyway. Okay. So I guess that sums up the episode pretty quick one. Yep. And take a little break. I have to pee. Before we, you know, actually dive in. Tim has some really, really good information to grace us all with. He was telling me this in the break and I'm like, well, you got to tell the people. So every Lego piece.

has a corresponding number. That's how they keep track of what... I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's actually really fascinating. There's a documentary on Hulu. about their factory and when they build things like they have all these racks that have a specific part a specific color and they know that if you're going to put together this truck it's going to be this big list of of uh

part numbers and that's how they know what to do. So I wanted to look up what the Lego hair part actually was. So random information of the day. The Lego part number for Lego hair is 3901. It's the one that has the part that we're talking about. And it is dark tan minifigure comma hair male. There you go. So 3901, you said? 3901, yep, is the Duggar Lego hair. So Pest has an inmate number. Lego has a hair number. Mm-hmm.

And it says that they usually retail minimum price is $0.19. Average price is $0.55. $0.19 is hilarious. So Lego hair has a $0.55 haircut.

Pays more in hairspray. Okay, so today's deep dive. First of all, I had two inspirations for...

You know, usually I kind of watch the episode and I see if there's anything from the episode I'm kind of inspired by for a topic. I could have gone one of two different ways this week. And like I'd post it in our... stories on instagram that i was like i keep going back and forth between the two and a bunch of people were like put it to a poll so i did i put it to a poll so today's deep dive has been chosen by the people so

The topic is the real timeline and story behind Pest and Anna's courtship. Oof. Inspired by the fact that they've been married about two months in this episode that we just watched. Okay, so remember how our takeaway from the engagement episode, the beginning of that first season, was that it felt like... They skipped over courtship is how it really felt to us. So let's refresh our memories with some scenes from that episode.

So Pa Keller says, quote, months ago, even before we knew anything, she just felt he was the one. Well, I said, don't say anything. Let's just pray about it and wait. He says we didn't drop any hints to the Duggar family at all. We just prayed and were quiet and God did a work in Josh's heart. I think God has a... some more work to do on josh's heart i think he's not done yet that's a term they use a lot did a work yeah it's weird yeah it doesn't make sense grammatically work it

Yeah, it's just weird. I'm going to start pulling out all these like... literature analysis words where i'm like the syntax is really weird sure seems like par pa keller has a dangling participle over there i know that's not what's going on i just like using the term dangling participle

Dangling is kind of a gross word. Like, I think it's kind of, you know, dangling. That's why Lieutenant Dangle in Reno 911 was the funniest character because his name was Lieutenant Dangle. Yeah. I'm just new boot goofing. Okay, so then on the phone, Pa says he gives permission to court her. And remember, this is after how Pest has already asked to become engaged to her. So could that just be a slip of the dump?

the tongue like sure like you know it's possible but it just stuck out to me as odd given the strict courtship guidelines to be flipping back and forth between these two different words i just remember that kind of sticking out So he shows up, proposes to homegirl. She can't breathe. Get this bitch a fucking doggy bag or something. You know, she needs a bag or something because she's exasperated. He talks about carrots. Yep.

But I picked up on something. Beer gets delivered. Yes. Important things are happening. Beer is here. Fuck this proposal. The beer is here. But I did pick up on something new this time when I was going back to this episode to pull these things that I did not pick up on before. Okay. So when they're sitting back down in the booth after, you know.

Josh and his wonderful proposal. It's very romantic. After the deed is done. Yes. After all of that, he says, we've moved on. And Anna replied, wow, quick. And I didn't notice that before. Did you notice it? No. I'm like, I did not catch that. I don't know how I didn't, but I never did. Okay. It just feels important now in context. Yeah.

I'm like, fuck, how did I miss this? So I'm really glad I went back. I also noticed how in this episode Michelle specifically says how she and Boob have discussed with Ma and Pa about... Goals, standards, and guidelines Josh and Anna should have for their courtship and engagement. Now, her saying that, she could be saying them as two different steps, but I just remember feeling that it feels like all one thing.

It does, yeah. You know, like she does say courtship and, but that's just not the vibe you get from it. It feels like one thing. So then in the next episode where they come back to Arkansas, Michelle says, quote, this is when she has the kid they're all sitting down she's holding the kid you know like whatever climbing all over and she's like anna Since it was your 20th birthday and you made that commitment to the Lord that you wouldn't get caught or get engaged or whatever.

Until you turned 20, your daddy had said he really wanted you to keep that commitment. So I guess Josh and your daddy figured all this out to surprise you. Surprise! Happy birthday! We got you a husband. You're committed to life to this fucking sexual deviant. Happy birthday. Jeez. But, you know, just again, remembering her words.

you weren't going to you know you made this commitment to not court until you're 20 okay it's uh you made that commitment to the lord that you wouldn't court or get engaged or whatever or whatever so so to me it's just like you know further evidence of where we were stacking up like it doesn't sound like there was a courtship right this is what gave us those vibes to begin with because it seems so out of the blue for her yeah well like

like that was one thing through all of it was like this isn't regardless of the fact that the only thing you can do is look at each other and not lustfully but like just look at each other um even then you would assume like okay this is kind of a romantic step or a like coupling step yeah so you would assume there would be some semblance of like okay we're on the same page Like, it felt like he was proposing to a stranger, and she was so much more of a stranger than even I imagined. Yeah.

I thought it was just because of the fact that they're not really allowed to do a whole lot. And apparently not. Yep. We will touch on this in depth.

So that was a recap just to give you guys a refresher of what we've already seen previously. It's just one of those things that it's like... there's they're kind they're kind of giving they're kind of saying it they're kind of giving you the information but in this like roundabout way yeah like michelle's like little you weren't going to do it you know so it's like they're telling it to you but not really like they're definitely like skirting around this

skirting um around the situation entirely like it's like oh you know we're just going to kind of gloss over that correct um because you know it would sound bad to outright say that we just skipped straight to engagement so we'll just skirt around this so now let's discuss how so do you sorry so do you think that her that anna saying that

That, oh, well, we've talked about it and she thought he was the one. Do you think that's true? We'll get to that. We're getting there. Okay. I'm just unraveling this story for you, Tim. Are you excited? I'm thrilled. I can tell.

Okay, so now we're going to talk about how Pest and Anna themselves presented their courtship. So using the Wayback Machine website, you can go back to their now defunct website, which was ja20.com. Okay. So on their site, they have an Our Story tab with a section called How Did Josh and Anna Meet? So I'm going to be going over that.

um and just side note i did pull up various years on the website because that's kind of how way back works you have to like select different years on like a little calendar and i poked around at different years and stuff and it doesn't appear that they ever altered the story so it looks like it was the same From the beginning. Yeah. Okay. From when they initially posted it to when they stopped updating to the site to even eventually when the site went away entirely. Correct.

So the way the telling of this story works on their website is it kind of flips back and forth between Josh and Anna telling their side kind of like through the timeline. Right. So I'm going to go through it and I've got to. At some points I am paraphrasing just and cutting fluff. And then other times I'm quoting just so you can get the vibe of how they present it. Okay. So Josh said.

I was taught to wait for God's best in my life partner but as time went along and I grew older it was harder to keep my heart only for the one that God had for my life partner. Yeah. Hmm. So then Anna said that like Ma and Pa had encouraged her to save her whole heart and purity for the one that God had for her. Told her it was normal to have desires and thoughts, but it was her responsibility to commit her future to the Lord and trust God to lead in his timing.

Then Josh says, again quoted, as I grew older, I began to realize that there were two different kinds of people in this world. Men and women. Oh my god. Such an astute observation, that Josh, you know? so then anna talks about how i should write that down oh okay um two different two different men and women's men and women's got it copy we're good

So Anna talks about how she first heard about the Duggars when she was 13. And it was in an article that a friend sent to her on Christmas Day or like to the family. And after reading the article, she thought it would be neat to meet them one day. Neat. My dad says neat. He says neat. So every time we're like, is your dad here? No, it's neat. It's real neat. So this was back in 2001, just for context.

Then Pest says a bunch of stuff that does not matter, but the key point being that in 2004 is when their very first Discovery special airs. Okay. So then Anna talks about how Friends of the Keller sent them a copy of the 14 Children Pregnant Again special. And Anna said, quote, I noticed how Joshua, do you notice how she always says Joshua?

I noticed how Joshua, then age 16, shared the importance of guarding his heart and waiting for someone who would really love him and wasn't going to just get carried away with their emotions. I was so excited to see another family who was brought up similar to the way our parents were training us. Again with the training. But never would I have dreamed what God had in store. Oh honey.

You don't even know what's ahead of you. Let's go back to that Michelle. Get used to disappointments. She needs to go in the way back machine. Anna. Oof. Go way back. Way back. Way back. So Josh says, as I became a teenage young, a teenage young man, I was constantly tempted to have lots of wrong thoughts and then often battle to keep my heart right.

Understatement of the fucking century. Jesus Christ. One of the greatest things that helped me in my struggle was my parents' commitment to accountability. Which is fucking laughable. Oh, man. It gets worse and worse and worse. Jim Bob and Michelle and accountability in the same sentence. Bullshit. Oh, man. They were faithful to talk with each one of their children.

how very generous of them they talk to us you know so fucking generous if we were willing to share honestly and openly with them to maintain a clear conscience so they only talk to you if you're willing to be you know open and honest of course I learned quickly that great freedom can be achieved by accountability. And great accountability requires humility and openness. It's just so bad.

I often had failures in my early teenage years, but found I had a clear conscience only when I was willing to confess my thoughts and temptations quickly to God and my parents. and i fucking hate this part because i feel like it's like this like oh look at him admitting to you know his you know he's not perfect but he's he's admitting it you know yeah um as if like oh it's so

Look at him. It's so commendable. But it actually is just this weird way of jerking himself off and trying to gain people's admiration. It's like, look at him admitting that he's had struggles. It's just not... you know it's not fucking genuine but everybody else is like slurping this shit up like it's disgusting

also completely glosses over that this is the severity of it like this isn't just like normal horny teen shit this is fucking molestation but you know he just you know he just struggled it's a bit more than a fucking struggle yeah You lost that struggle. Yeah. So then Anna says, quote, growing up, my parents like Joshua's always took time aside from their busy schedule to take time to listen to each one of their children.

The whole 15 minutes we learned about a week. That's very generous. That's a long... These parents, man. Just giving up their time. And allow them to share their heart. So then Anna talks of watching her two older sisters getting married following like all... you know, God's principles and all these things and how exciting it was to see, quote, the fruit of all these years of guarding their heart and trusting God to lead through their parents. Then she says, I realized the importance of sharing.

with my parents and waiting for God's very best for my life partner, a young man who was striving to do the same. So then it was early in 2006 that the two met at an ATI conference. Anna tells this stupid fucking story about how she was amazed that Josh was able to guess her and her siblings' ages right. Man.

I guess we need to put a hose on her because things are getting hot. That was his big icebreaker. Like, you know, the big pickup line was, you know, guessing her age. But I guess the reason Anna found this like so amazing because she says. that for usually people thought she was five to seven years older and that it was getting to be quote quite embarrassing which i'm not buying this fucking shit at all because we've seen 20 year old anna

So this would be referring to 18 year old Anna. There is no fucking way that you're telling me the 18 year old version of her looks 23 to 25. Like, do you buy any of this shit? No. But I guess these are all kids. using ati curriculum so maybe numbers are hard for them yeah the math ain't so good with that one they're like you're 32 i just i kept thinking in my head of what

Sorry, before you continue this, I was like, all right, what are they going to say is their grand story of how they met? Because going back to Lego hair, when... He was like, I met Michelle and she was the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. And she was like, I didn't remember him. Which is funny because that's not very... That doesn't seem very wifely of her to not like grandstanding. That's true. Yeah. It's pretty funny. So they talked for a while and Josh mentions that, you know.

They would have to come over and visit them sometime. And Anna says that she thought that was really nice of him to say, but that living all the way in Florida, like in her head, she's just like, this isn't ever going to happen. Right. And so as their conversation came to an end, she says she does remember thinking, I've never met.

anyone like this before but that was the extent of her thoughts okay so this is kind of her version of there's a michelle but i don't really buy it but and i don't remember a lot of it yeah there's a if i can make another reference we've been making a lot of these there's an snl sketch with mcdonald's where the manager's like sorry guys things are a little bit rough right now and i'm gonna have to lay two of you off

so then two of the employees jump up and they're like we know it's us you all hate us and we hate all of you so then they spend the next five minutes just like roasting every person that works there you're a bitch yeah And then they end up not being the ones that are getting fired. So it's just very funny. They roast. But my favorite one is they're like, ooh, who's next? And he goes, Seth Bogan. And he goes, stop. telling people that your name sounds like Seth Rogen. And Fred Armisen goes,

But it does. And he goes, but that's not a story. That's not even an anecdote. He's like, stories have a beginning, a middle, and the end. That's kind of what that feels like, where she's like... But he guessed all of our ages. That's not a story. Great, Anna. I totally get why you fell for him now. I mean, I'm hot just thinking about it. Whitney, guess my age. Guess my age. What are you, 46? I'm 19. So Anna's just like, she didn't think much of it, apparently.

But Josh says, my thoughts, however, were very different from Anna's. As we talked, I felt God speak to my heart that this was the girl I was going to marry someday. I enjoyed her fellowship and then resumed my schedule for the rest of the day. By that night, I still could not get her off my mind. I went to my dad and told him what I felt like God had told me. He told me that he thought it could be a possibility and then asked if I felt that I was ready to get into a relationship.

I knew that I had a lot to get ready if I felt courting or even marriage was in the near future. So then Anna says, was surprised a few weeks later when my dad announced to our family that we would be traveling to Arkansas to spend a few days with the Duggars. The first night at the Duggars' home, during Bible time, Joshua shared his testimony. Oh, great.

I was encouraged to all the wording that they all use. It's just so I was encouraged to see that there really was a young man out there who was accountable to his parents. not the police, and was striving to keep his heart pure. Oh, God. A hottie over here. Yep. I mean, he was guessing ages, giving out testimonies. God. So I began to commit those desires to the Lord and reaffirmed my commitment to wait on him to lead through my parents in that area.

after all my sisters and i were friends with the dugger girls and my brothers were friends with the dugger boys that was the way things were supposed to be um so then josh says that he enjoyed like the visit but that he and he watched anna from a distance from a distance

He said he was trying not to make it super noticeable. So not be creepy about staring at her from across the house? He can't not be creepy. He's inherently creepy. So be remotely... less creepy yeah you know take it down like half a notch i'm gonna need to take about five percent off that chief So he says that the day that the Kellers left, he immediately talked with Boob again. And he told him that he was sure that Anna was the one for him. Apparently, Boob agreed that God was moving.

you know them in that direction and he counseled josh to keep praying for their relationship then he says as we spoke further about the possibilities of courtship he encouraged me as an 18 year old young man to begin diligently preparing spiritually and financially for the day that God would bring us together. Okay. So then Anna talks about how, you know, they went to the ATI conference again.

And that the family spent time together. And then she felt like God was showing her that Josh was the one she would marry someday. Okay. She says, it was exciting, but I thought there was no way it would ever happen. He was not showing girls any special attention, including me. He just seemed busy serving God. Waiting for the right one. Waiting for the right one. So then Josh just says that after that next conference is when he began working on opening up his car lot and preparing for marriage.

So then a few weeks later after this other conference, Pa and Anna are out running errands together, and Pa asked her if there were any young men God had been speaking to her about. Anna says, quote, my dad had never asked me a question like that before, but I knew what he was getting at. So I told him how I felt God was speaking to my heart about Joshua. To her amazement, she says,

Pa said that he believed Joshua was the one for her and to pray for Josh and his family every day. Then Anna says, about a week later, we had special company. So, paraphrasing, Josh ended up staying at the Keller's house because he was in the area buying like a truck for his car lot or something. A bunch of, you know, unnecessary details that I trimmed out. But of this visit, this is what Anna says.

She says just before he left, Joshua was talking to my mom and he told her that he was excited about starting his business and was looking for a house, trying to get ready for a family of his own. When I heard that, my heart jumped. It was very hard to patiently wait on the Lord to bring us together in his timing. I constantly reminded myself that I needed to trust God with my future and let him dictate every sentence of it.

Well, she should know about serving sentences. Honey, you're going to know a lot about sentences. That's just... The verbiage is so weird on everything. Yeah. And the idea that like you would have a daughter that's older and you would go, has the Lord spoken to you about any young men recently? Yeah, it's so fucking weird. Yeah.

so then in december of 2007 anna's brother called pests and invite him to like come help him with this anger resolution seminar down in florida at a state prison so once again getting getting better get used to that kid So then it's in January of 2008 that Josh travels down and he does that.

And Anna said, I really felt I had given Joshua to the Lord and was content either way about the whole thing until Joshua called. He was on his way. Time and time again during Joshua's visit, I had to give it to the Lord. Damn. I still did not know if Joshua had any interest, but I knew God was more concerned with bringing the right one into my life more than I could ever be. And if it was his will, he would bring it to pass.

there's like somewhere like i'm the reason i sound like i'm stumbling is because some of the way that it's written is like kind of fucked up so i'm trying to like half correct it while i'm saying okay like you mean like they made mistakes or they have weird syntax

Because I feel like some of these aren't them being like, oh, we just made a mistake. I feel like it's just that weird way that they talk. I think it's a combination of both. I think she honestly can't write super well and that. So it's like my brain is trying to compute while I'm reading it.

um anyways so um i didn't know it would be a lot sooner than i expected so she's talking about god's will and timing didn't know it'd be a lot sooner than i expected a lot sooner remember wow quick right so after finishing up like the first week of those seminars Anna's with Anna's brother pest and him return to the Keller's home and Josh says

Quote, I could not wait any longer. I knew that the ball was in my court. After dinner and sharing the evening with the family, I asked to talk with Mr. Keller alone. Everyone else quickly hurried off to bed and I fumbled to put my thoughts into words. Finally, I got it out. After asking this, Mr. Keller gave me some encouraging words, ending our discussion by saying that he would...

need a month to pray about it. But that does not happen. Okay. Because the very next morning at breakfast, Pa pulls pests aside and told him that he prayed about it. And then Josh says, though he wouldn't quite say yes, he gave me a thumbs up and said all lights are green. So that means yes. I know, right? So, so much for that fucking month of prayer, huh? Funny. We'll talk more about that later. Anna says, over the next few days, we had great time of fellowship while Joshua was visiting.

When he left, it seemed like it would be an eternity before we would see each other again. I was so excited when I found out that my family would be taking a vacation to Arkansas at the end of June, just a few days after my 20th birthday. I could hardly wait.

I often spent evenings crowded around the phone with many of my siblings. It was so fun to get to know the Duggar family better and encourage each other in ways of the Lord. At the end of our phone call, we would always exchange prayer requests. And without fail, one of our siblings, usually a Duggar, would have an unspoken request, and then everyone would bust out laughing.

Needless to say, Joshua and I are grateful for the prayers of our siblings. My mom and I were also able to spend a lot of time together talking about marriage and being a wife and mother. Do you think this is when she got the seven basic needs pamphlet? I hope so.

It was a great time to learn and prepare for the future. So then Josh says that I wanted to make our engagement very special. And remember when he says special, he means special. So then, you know, Josh just rehashes the calling of Pa and proposing that we talked about earlier.

Anna says, when my parents said they wanted to take me out for my birthday, I had no idea what was really going on. I was so focused on leaving for Arkansas in two days that I did not notice how nervous my parents were as we prepared to leave for the restaurant.

They're like, oh, we're going to Gator Landing. Gator Landing. Yeah, I was racking my brain to remember what it was called. After a few minutes where we were seated while looking at the menu, I heard a young man say, happy birthday, Anna. We're telling him this is funny. I looked up and was shocked to see Joshua standing there with a dozen happy birthday slash I love you balloons. I was so excited and so nervous all at the same time. A few minutes later, Joshua slipped out of the booth.

onto one knee and asked me to marry him, and I said yes. We thank God for bringing us together in marriage on September 26, 2008. Okay. What a thrilling recap. So that may have been a little bit painful, but I purposely had to read some parts so you could hear their description and their weird fucking wording.

there's kind of a point to it but because of all this like weird way that they play it it's just kind of hard to pick up on the timeline of it because there's so much extra so here's a here's a timeline breakdown 2001, Anna first learns of the Duggars from that article at the age of 13. 2004, she watches their first special and is impressed by Joshua sharing about guarding his heart and all that bullshit.

So then in early 2006, they meet at the ATI conference and, you know, he guesses her age. Such a smooth move, man. Pickup of the century. And then this, of course, is when Pest first tells Boob that he's... Interested in Anna. At some point later in 2006 is when the Kellers go visit the Duggars in Arkansas. Then in 2007 is another ATI conference, which of course they hang out, you know, this time.

It is a few weeks later after that conference that she has that conversation with Pa when he tells her to just be quiet and pray. Of course. And then another few weeks after that, that he stays with the Kellers in Florida when he's there for the whole car thing, right? January 2008, Pest helps Anna's brother at that seminar down in Florida.

And that is also the same time that he talks to Pa Keller about courting Anna. Okay. Pa gives the thumbs up and the green light. But he didn't say yes. But he didn't say yes. um then fast forward to june and they're engaged so i just wanted to kind of break that down in a way that you can kind of feel that timeline right

Okay, so now I'm going to be referencing that AMA of Anna's childhood friend that happened just a week ago today when we're recording. Specifically... that are regarding their courtship and engagement. So the first tidbit of info was that the Kellers and Duggars were actually first introduced by people by the name of Ken and Dot Sparks. Dot.

Ken and Dot were more acquainted with the Kellers, apparently. And although not a part of IBLP, they were approved. Thumbs up. Green light. Oh, okay. They weren't heathens.

The reason, though, they're approved is because they were the longtime hosts of a children's Christian radio show on BBN, which is the Bible Broadcasting Network. Is that a... like a national thing or is that just like a local no it's not like it's in other countries too huh okay i had to do look it all up i'm a tbn uh fan myself oh so got it yeah So not IBLP, but A-OK in their book because, you know, Bible.

So the show was just a little sidestep. Because Bible. That's going to be a statement I'll make throughout. You know, because Bible. Yeah, you know, but that's how it is. Because Bible. Yep. So their show is actually called Captain's Club, where Ken, so they're a married couple, if you can't pick up on that. Ken played Captain Chesterpeak, and Dot was Sparkle, the Captain Club's secretary.

Oh. Sparkle sounds like a stripper name. That's what I was going to say. For kids like Christian, they sure gave her quite a name. Yep. This is my secretary cinnamon. Yeah. Secretary Sparkle checking in. Why don't you get your co-secretary Diamond out here and we'll see what's going to work with you. You have a call on line one, Captain Chester Peek.

um so yeah so it sounds like they had zero to do with the actual like bringing together josh and anna but just a little you know interesting background on the introductions of the two families that even though they're both in this iblp world they hadn't actually come across each other organically right um brought together by this couple it's unclear at what point they the families were introduced because it sounds like they met for the time at that

first time at that one ati conference yeah so i'm not sure where this introduction kind of works in but that's what two people actually said this the the girl doing the ama and then someone else also chimed in that was like yes i kind of know of the families and this is true okay um anyway just a little extra on their initial introduction um so when talking specifically of pest and anna's courtship this friend of anna said quote

They had a courtship if you define courtship as two families having back and forth negotiations without the actual input of the girl involved. There was no wooing. but several weeks of phone calls with sibling chaperones on the other line. To me, it sounds like there was wooing. He guessed her age. If that doesn't mean I want to bang, I don't know what does. Hey, girl, you 22? Tim used to always joke to me and go, hey, girl, you got a job? What up, girl? Got a job?

This is the fundie version. What are you? 26? That's kind of like the cheesy old... stereotype of a pickup line and being like yo girl what's your sign yo are you a virgo you look like a virgo so when asked if she knew if there were like any other prospects for anna

that she might have had her response was quote i don't believe her dad was pursuing anyone else around that time it was a business deal which i mean that tells you everything you need to know right though yeah courtship is about two dads getting together yeah and then by the time

it even gets to presenting it to the daughter it's a fucking done deal yeah so for her to be like well i don't think he's pursuing anybody else you're like that's a mouthful She also said, quote, their family wasn't allowed to court before 20, but the goal was to be engaged at 20 immediately. So they had everything prearranged so that at midnight when she turned 20, they could be courting while he drove to Florida to propose. So instead of doing like a power hour.

Like when you turn 21, they do a power hour of you getting engaged. She needs a fucking sash that's like courting, and then she can flip it over a couple hours later. yeah so this is you know i have to i guess i have to own my shit this is where i have been spreading misinformation okay i've been sitting here this whole time saying that there was no courtship and they you know jump straight to engagement but clearly

As we've been told, there was a courtship from midnight up until the very special launch at Gator Landing. And it was a courtship. between josh and pa keller he was quite he was essentially courting pa keller no it's absolutely true yeah but yeah i'm thinking if he guessed his age right he's like what do you uh 57 and he's like I'm 44 um

But yeah, so clearly I need to apologize for spreading that misinformation. I think the sash is a good idea. She could have one side of it that says courting and then afterwards she can just flip it up a little bit and then it says engaged. Okay so I'm paraphrasing this part a little in the beginning but she goes on to say that Anna probably did expect of course because of this family situation to be engaged very soon but that she was genuinely shocked the day that he came and actually proposed.

but um my favorite part was how she ended it saying quote or maybe she was just head over heels at a man proposing with balloons That seems like such shade. There's like an undercurrent. The fucking shade of it is so good. But I'm just also like, oh, poor Tim. But now that I know that Jabloon Man has knocked it down to three, I was like, man, he puts effort into that balloon bouquet.

I mean, he did. Don't get me wrong. Third place is not a bad place to be. Like, third place on a show of just the main characters being 20 people.

Like, that's a sign. You know what I mean? Okay, that's true. So I think it's the balloons that really did it for Anna. You know, it's those balloons. See, so he was the linchpin. Yep. So when someone... ask something along the lines of like what would what would happen if anna had said no her friend's response was um that's a rhetorical question you don't say no that's true which is exactly yeah that's exactly right for these girls if

If it hits this point by this time, clearly their fathers have approved and set this up and given it the thumbs up and green light. Correct. So, you know, they're on the ride and there's no getting off, unless you're Josh. But you're on it. Yeah, you're done. Full speed ahead. So she did also touch on what was known in the circle about Josh and his behavior and past. Predilections. Yeah. You know, all of his past stuff, which I'm not going to get.

too deep into right now because it is something that we will discuss more in depth in the future but one thing i want to note was that she said anna's brother said that when they were in like the pre-courtship stage when you know basically the talking stage where you know their family was all around on these phone calls Anna's brother and this is her words were quote was one of the most perverse disgusting guys he's ever met

And that he was pissed Anna was going to be subjected to that. And she says that the molestations, as far as she knew, were pretty well known. So again, we'll talk about this more in the future. But all signs of that point to Daniel because... he's her only older brother her other little her other brothers are all much younger okay to me far too young for this to be coming from one of them correct um also just a reminder he was the one who called pesta pig

and was the one that offered Anna help to get out. Correct. But if Josh and Anna's story has any truth to it, I feel like he'd also be the brother. that called to invite him down to the seminar yeah so i was like wait but then again i'm like that's probably like pa keller being like calling josh josh you know so it's like that at first i was like wait that doesn't make sense i'm like no none of that fucking matters they would just be like call somebody to you know yeah

So just interesting. They never specifically say which brother that was, but it just all points to. But she does say that despite all of this, the circle still viewed Anna as marrying well due to the TV show. Yeah. Because power and visibility was more important to them than moral character. Or child molestation. Right. And she said, I mean, of course the Duggars were considered.

higher class and a family of power and of course Anna never worded it that way by any means but I can't help but feel like to some degree like she felt like she was fucking bagging like right or strong Or like I was more of a JTT girl myself. But if you think about it, she talks about seeing him in an article.

when she was 13 and then she's watching him on tv you can't tell me that that didn't play into something for her because this is like if you're in this like bubbly fundy world that's your fucking fundy heartthrob right like gross it's disgusting to think about but like

I mean, it obviously played into it for Pa. And I can't help but think that Anna wasn't like, oh man, I'm getting like, of course she's going to think that she's getting like a sweet deal. Like this is a sweet gig to be in with this family. What's the fundy version of Tiger Beat? Oh. We should think about that. So it'll be Tiger Beat and then the front of it will be all the different.

iblp royalty see like the the mormons like for kids the magazine is the friend okay so yeah i had the friend oh all right then um Okay, so of course this AMA had a ton of different questions that covered a huge variety of topics. So with that in mind... When she was asked what her hottest take was or basically your biggest takeaway or something you just want to leave people with, she said, quote, courtship is human trafficking. Oof.

So out of all the things that she could have chosen to highlight is important. That's what she emphasized. And I feel like that says a lot because we're talking to a girl who escaped IBLP, like literally escaped and was living in a shelter is what she was talking about. Left without a dollar to her name.

So she probably has a million things that she could say or, you know, a lot of thoughts about a lot of things. Yeah. So to me, it is incredibly telling that her big takeaway that she wanted to leave people with was courtship is human trafficking. Damn. But. I just want to leave you with a funny note from this AMA because why not? It's great. When asked what she thought Anna's type was pre-pest, she said...

I think she was more attracted to tall, non-sweaty, non-greasy guys. So Josh really came out of left field. Fucking good. Oh, man, that's pretty funny.

I loved it. Okay. So. Now we have covered the three. I know it probably sounded like I just kept giving you. the same information from different sources but i did that you know for a reason and it was to highlight the tone Or kind of like the spin or just like the different ways it was presented or taken by, you know, the different.

the different ways so in the TLC version that we saw on TV it was very much like a like you know like look at these fucking fundies they didn't even hold hands until they're engaged or um like Look at this guy proposing with balloons in a booth. Like it was done in the way that TLC, I feel like they always kind of do it where it's like, let's focus on like the freak show aspect of it all that makes them different from the rest of the world. Yeah.

But like really devoid of any real detail or like substance for real. done so of course purposely because you they want to draw enough attention to it that people find it interesting like the freak show thing will draw people in oh my god this is so fucking weird let me keep watching but at the same time they can't reveal too much or get too deep into it

because it could backfire and then people are gonna be like it'll put people off this is you know this is insane yeah so they can't give the details of all of it but also what really worked i feel on tlc's end is that The engagement was like three episodes into their reality show. So people were kind of probably safely assuming we just didn't see.

these two kids getting to know each other you know it was really it worked out really well for TLC in that right in that respect we're also what do you what demographic are you gonna hit I think you're gonna get You're going to get viewers based off of kind of what you said, the freak show accent. Of the fact that like, oh, they have so many kids, how difficult their life must be. Yeah. And then you're going to get the people that are not necessarily IBLP, but are maybe just.

practicing christians or example exactly or even like conservative christians that'll be like oh look like somebody adjacent to our worldview is is making it big yeah you know what i mean so you're gonna get that aspect you're gonna get all sorts of different things so i think it's how do you maximize how many people are watching your show

and what demographics can you draw off of and you know jim bob michelle always talk about how we told them if we're gonna do a show that they had to keep our faith in and so they're giving just enough of it to still be like

look we did what you asked yes but we can't get too deep or people are gonna turn on it just the same way the reason the show got canceled is because of all the fucking scandalous shit right yeah um but it's like we don't when it had like uh we're doing this and we're squeaky clean yeah Exactly. So now let's talk about the Anna and Josh account of their story. Okay.

um first of all i just feel like it's definitely a lot safer on their end that they're sharing this now after the fact when they've they're already married because even if people were like um what the fuck how did this all you know if anybody questioned anything or about how did it unfold

or anything at that point it doesn't matter because they can be like well look where they're just like happily married and look at that you know they follow god's you know it's all good yeah they're married now so it was it was a safer way to give a little more detail yeah But what really stuck out to me was in their version how, I don't know if it was done super on purpose, but I feel like it was definitely like, oh, look, it looks like it took place over the course of like two years.

They met in 2006 and Josh just knew she was the one. But they didn't get married until 2008. So this was two years in the making. But what... you have to read into, if you're just reading it at face value, that's what it sounds like. It sounds like, Oh, these kids were patient and waited for the Lord and blah, blah, blah. Right. And then over the course of two years, this, you know, this wonderful, you know, love story unfolded.

Yeah, or even like they already had a semblance of a friendship and then they just decided to take this next step. But they really, it just completely glosses over the fact that in those two years, they didn't really get to know each other in any kind of meaningful way. So they really don't count. It's not like two years of dating. Dating. Yeah. So also in Anna's telling of the story, I quoted a lot of hers because it's the naive way in which she...

Like she kind of makes everything sound like like happenstance. Or no, I guess they don't believe in happenstance. So I guess it would all be God. But it's the way that she always acts kind of like, and then this happened. Isn't that like, oh, wow. And I couldn't believe. Yeah. So let me give you some examples of that.

So like how she first met Josh at ATI in 2006. And then she says, I was surprised a few weeks later when my dad announced to our family that they'd be going to Arkansas to stay with the Duggars. Like, let's be fucking real. This is 100% boob calling paw or whatever after that conference because that was when Pess first told Lego that he was interested.

so you know you're gonna tell me that all of a sudden out of nowhere like their families are just getting together and it's just it's like look my dad just decided we're gonna go on vacation there yeah yeah none of that none of that sounded like it was like

Hey, remember that Arkansas vacation we were... we were planning wow it just so happens this boy lives there you know what i mean so it's like it's 100 that the dad started talking and they figure bringing the families together and you know i even thought deeper into it about how she was like and then I was friends with the girls and the boys were friends with and that's how it's supposed to be it it's like if we make if we bring the families together

It makes it seem more organic than it really was. But this is really just when the scheming began. Yeah, it was all engineered. Yeah. So then again, after that, Anna talks to Pa. um about asking you know when he asked her is there any young men god had been speaking to you about so when he asked that like like that wasn't oh away that paw to get Anna to say it herself like I feel like that is totally like

oh see see how natural this was she brought it up well this was your idea exactly like not that you're totally like okay well now we've spent time with this family and now we've done this and now i'm gonna be like so are there any guys you've been thinking about when they're the same I've been putting you around for the last... Yeah. I mean, she brought it up.

Oh, I also just like, I especially love how Pa tells Pest that he would need a month to pray about it, about courting. And then the very next morning, he's like, she's all yours.

like uh like it's like pa was attempting to play it like play the game and then he like failed miserably he's like ah fuck whatever fuck it she's yours you know completely just like not forget it but if you think about it um it's like it's almost like a way for it's like it makes a good story again yeah the story of it all so you know in the beginning it's like you know i'm gonna be a good headship

And I'm telling him, well, you know, I really got to talk to God and it's probably going to take a month. But then if you say that the next morning you gave it the green light, it makes it sound as if you got this very clear, strong answer from God. Maybe he did. Oh, did he? Maybe in that, you know, before he went to bed. Oh, I thought you were about to say something else.

no no i was like before he went to bed that's where he got that i was all waiting i was like oh did i miss something yeah so then it's suddenly after that visit where you know pest gets that clear from pa um that

Pa again announces another trip later in the year. This is fucking January. So then it's just this... wild thing that all of a sudden paul's like oh by the way we're gonna go stay with the duggars again in june a couple days after your 20th birthday the age at which we allow you to start courting and getting engaged It's like when you really put it all in a line like that it becomes like so clear how calculated and like the planning and the planting.

of everything that was happening behind the scenes and anna's just over here presenting this story like and then my dow and then he asked me and then we went and stayed with them and that you know like it's all just like can you believe it

I do have to say the image in my head right now of you putting all these pieces together. is from It's Always Sunny where he has a cigarette in his hands and he has the wall full of articles and paper and yarn collecting them and he has crazy hair and the cigarette in his hand. That's what I imagine you do right now. That's me. I'm like ATI Conference 2006.

Like 2007. But he said a month. I actually feel like that. Yeah. So it's like Anna very much. It's like she wants to believe it's this sort of like.

like this fairy tale or i guess um they wouldn't believe in fairy tales serendipity a biblical story yeah there you go but then those always end up bad but then so did josh and anda so i guess this really is a biblical love story um but yeah she just has this whole like oh about it all when you're like are we just not going to acknowledge you can like do you think she sees that stuff like i don't know um

So yeah, in summary, the telling of their story is very like, look how blessed we were for following God's lead and through our parents. Meanwhile, it was all very carefully planned between paw pests and Lego. So it's like it's anyways. I just feel like it perfectly depicted exactly what her friend said.

when she said that if a courtship they had a courtship if a courtship is two families negotiating back and forth yeah i mean when you literally look at the timeline i feel like a true crime person like when you look at the timeline you can it's like you can literally see the negotiations back and forth like then we're gonna do this and then you're gonna plan a visit to come see us and then i'm you know yeah

Without her involvement at all. Yeah. And make her think that she's thinking of it all. So you got any guys you're thinking about? Oh, it's so romantic. My father negotiated my wedding. So which leads us to the AMA version of the story. I mean, this is pretty easy to sum up. Basically, she's just saying everything we've all been thinking and saying.

for years but it's just confirmation of it all and it's really nice to get that confirmation from like an inside source there you're like no what we're thinking was all the these you know suspicions are exactly how it happened correct so that's just really nice um they were total fucking strangers and so as i'm watching this kind of like i mentioned earlier it was when i was watching this episode that i was like god

They've been married two months. They don't know a goddamn thing about each other. It's even worse than we thought. Yep. It's so much worse. And it's like, you know, a few family trips. Some conversations at the ATI snack bar or being on the phone with your little fucking sister on the other end does not lend itself to.

Getting to know someone on a deeper level. A basis for a relationship. I'm not even convinced they knew each other on a surface level. Right. They knew each other through the lens of, oh, he believes in these things. That's it. Yeah. Like. that's it it was like oh you believe what i believe that was the entire that's all they need that's it yeah they don't need anything else what else is important well i'm that's you know absolutely you're right you know and you know and i was thinking that they

It's essentially marrying your first boyfriend or girlfriend. And actually, I think that's generous. I think it's more like marrying somebody you're attracted to on the street. It's, it's marrying your first and like more intense crush. Not just like when you're like in first grade and you're like, they're kind of cute. Like the first one that you start noticing.

some actual like traits or whatever but like that does not make you like i'm trying to envision myself like even just marrying my first boyfriend and i'm like oh my god not that they're a bad person but that doesn't mean you're compatible but then again

fucking pal to you know they don't care about that because you you become it's everything your husband says wants whatever so you don't need to have a personality or be compatible when you don't have a personality anymore or thoughts of your own yep

so then you know every time i think it all doesn't make sense you see how it makes sense in their realm because compatibility isn't a fucking thing it's not important yeah yeah um let's see do i have anything else i want to say oh yeah i do have another thing so um one of my things that I just couldn't stop thinking about and I wrote this ended up writing this all down like later so in that AMA that where she says that the Doug the Keller rule of no courting

before 20 while simultaneously pushing for engagement at 20 um it just made me realize that you because of that i feel like we can personally i place a lot of the blame on paw color for this and don't fucking get me wrong i am not saying i'm not letting you know lego or

pest off the hook in any means. I'm just saying that I feel like he shoulders a lot of this because of him really not allowing them to get to know each other and just going straight to engagement and the reason i say that is because you'll see going forward um a lot of the the dugger kids They have much longer courtships. And by much, I mean like six months or like whatever. So again, I'm being very fucking generous with my words today. But.

I mean a few months is better than fucking nothing. Right. I mean that's something. And at least in courtship. as from what we've understood yes you still have chaperones and all that bullshit so it's not like you're suddenly able to be like free and really but at least the world around you is like okay these two you're allowed to talk and be with another gender without it being like completely policed yeah you're still chaperoned but it's like yeah you're like they're

There's a tiny bit more freedom to it. And again, fucking generous with my words, man. I should never say any, the word freedom should not even come into any of these conversations. But yeah, so it's at least most of the Duggars. going forward they'll have their months of courtship and then the few months of planning the wedding.

so say about six months courtship to a year some of them like i think i want to say um it was jessa that had the longest one i think she was a year but most of them are six months and under but again still better than fucking nothing yeah better than a night for your dad to decide yeah and then like josh and anna there was more emphasis on the planning of the months of planning of the wedding than there was them getting to know each other yeah

So it is interesting because Josh and Anna's is kind of an anomaly in the sense of being like that short. So to me, that clearly goes back to Paul Keller's. thing about it's like why couldn't you so if josh asked to court her in january and they end up getting engaged in june why the fuck couldn't you just let them court those six months and still get engaged at the same time that they're going to get engaged

Like, I completely acknowledge the fact that an extra six months would not change a course in anything. Correct. Anna still would have married him. because she was in puppy love at fucking 20 years old but it's like she's enamored because she's it's a boy that she is allowed to you know like he gave her attention yeah and she's and it's allowed but

So it's like that. And then her dad approved it. So nothing would have changed the outcome. But I feel like at least, just give them fucking six months to have that courtship time where they could have at least, I mean. Known some things about each other.

at all yeah at all at all i don't know i just think it's really it's but it's like paw is so he has this little fucking rule it sounds like and boob like the girls um their courtships were much longer because i think he you know because he's controlling as well but it's just to see the difference in like the dugger girl courtship times versus what pa keller does yeah and it is different so that's why

The absolute lightning speed of this and the completely skipping over actual courtship, I think it's all Paul Keller's fault. I agree with that. I also feel like Lego hair, or I'm sorry, 3901, dark tan 3901. I also feel like with all of the molestation stuff, I think with all of that, it was kind of like, this will distract him.

where he won't be in the like it kind of takes him out of the equation oh yeah for there to be potential infractions more on that same vein it's like well he's not gonna cause us any more of this embarrassment because he'll be out of the house

He'll have a wife. We're getting rid of the problem. Yeah, because if they give someone for him to fucking... rape you know if he they're if they're handing him a wife that's supposed to be joyfully available for him now problem solved to them it is like the problem was him not being able to get his yaya's out exactly and

So Anna was the answer to that problem. They had their, her eager fucking dad. He's, you know, Pa Keller is fucking eager beaver. Yep. And then they're like, cool. Josh is interested in her. Pa's eager as fuck. Let's solve this problem and let's get it done quickly. Yep.

it checked all the boxes for both sides now i blame pa keller for the ultimate lightning speed of it but it checked everybody's boxes we're getting our problem taken care of on this side and then i'm getting my daughter handed up in the you know the class and of iblp correct and it's all gonna happen on the timeline that i that i say is okay because you know she can't do it till it's 20 it's like pot treats this whole fucking thing like this weird fucking cinderella situation like

you know midnight they turn 20 and they have until midnight to again you know of the next day yeah to not only you know start courting but also get engaged and so i'm like what happens Does Anna's denim skirt like turn into like a fucking prairie dress if she doesn't get engaged by the end of the night? No. So she's like, gotta move fast. Gotta go fast. It's wild. Oh, Paul Keller.

Yep. He, he got you in the beginning there, didn't he? I remember you saying that he seemed like, and I remember going like, I just have a, like, I have like Southern charm is so nice. And I know that there's shitty people everywhere. And I know that that's not the end all be all of being a good person. But I've been to Atlanta twice for this like chef conference that's pretty cool. And that's one thing down there.

Everybody was super nice. So I felt like I was getting a little taste. You got a little bamboozled. Yeah. I've also worked with a guy that's from Tennessee. For like almost over 10 years. I think over 10 years at this point. And he's a good old boy from Clarksville, Tennessee. And he's just a nice man, you know. And so you thought Florida Pa was one of those?

I mean, don't get me wrong. Florida's Florida. But I was like, yeah, he got me with the Southern charm. He just seemed like a simple... that's how nice man yep that's why people talk about like the baits being more dangerous in a sense because they blend in and like you know um yeah i just think that's yeah and i actually have more about paw

Oh, damn. Coming up in a couple episodes. Oh, damn. I'm sorry that I'm crumbling your opinions of Pa, but had to be done. Pa Keller left my heart when I met Jabaloon Man. yeah jib balloon man definitely took over that spot so i didn't know pot was ever actually in your heart that's a little he was he was really nice at the beginning and then you told me he was a he was a thing piece of shit yeah you know

I think he just gets you because he's not as awkward. Well, he's his own kind of awkward, but it's a different flavor of awkward than Lego. So sometimes I think that you're just so used to the fucking off-puttingness of... of lego and then you're like gill and pa are great like i think the difference is and and i don't want you to over inflate the meaning of the word i'm about to use but the difference is charisma like there was a

a comedian that was talking about when he realized that standup comedians, you either, you get in in one of two ways. And it was one of those ways is being charismatic. And charismatic is that you have a personality or a way of speaking where people are drawn to you. And they're interested and invested in you because they're like, oh, I really like him because I, you know.

feel bad about this thing that he went through or you know whatever it is like charisma is pulling people in to get them invested in you as a person yeah and i think he has that personality where even though he's a little awkward even though he's a little bit kind of like

hokey like i think that is it though it's the corn it's like the little look at this little bit of corn this little old man over here corn yeah it's cone yeah um but it's like there's a level of charisma there that is involved with that personality style where you're like Oh, so I think he gives off like the little old man version of that. And I think Gil gives off like the.

the southern i'm just a southern guy just you know just being a regular guy and you're just people you know like that type of thing and that's how and then boob is boob boob is 3901 yep do you have anything else to add I don't think so. That was an intense deep dive. Yeah, sorry if it was a long one. I feel like it probably was. But, of course, I couldn't pull from one thing. I'm like, I've got to pull from three. I need a recap. I need to pull from AMA. And I need to read their account. Yeah.

yeah but i think it gives you the broad like here's all the presentations here and here's where the middle where it's the truth correct you know so i say that a lot where if there's two dissenting opinions or there's two dissenting like points of view for a scenario i'll be like well i definitely feel like the truth exists in the middle you know knowing that like each side is going to

gloss over things and curate deals details to make themselves look a little bit better you know what i mean yeah i say it at work all the time i manage human beings and there's an argument that happened between two cooks and they both tell me both sides and i'm like yeah i feel like I feel like the truth exists in the middle somewhere. Yep.

So we had the scrubbed TLC version. We have the behind the scenes of the friend. And then there's like the Anna and Josh where it's like we're going to tell some details but still make it sound flowery and like, oh, look at, you know. And it's like you had to... pull all these pieces together this is what fucking happened according to the timeline yeah you know i love my fact pulling that's true all right um the use

DiggingUpTheDuggarsPod on Instagram. DiggingUpTheDuggars at Gmail. Buy us a pickle. Yes, that's buy me a coffee. dot com slash digging up the dug digging up the dug because i ran out of characters but now it's just funny so i'm kind of okay with that so it's whatever um we appreciate you guys listening um

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you hate agree like i think it's easier to follow someone on instagram be like i kind of fucking hate them but keep scrolling you know what i mean yeah but like committing yourself to an hour and a half every week of bullshit from people you hate that feels like work yeah So I imagine if you're this far, I think you might like it. So if you do, we'd appreciate your five-star review on whatever platform you listen on. It helps us out. Yep. So we appreciate you guys. Thank you. Have a good week.