Episode 21 - Not Down with the Pronouns

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Visit lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe that? Arkansas, no.

Okay, so we are back with episode 21. So we've made it through... all the living kids i even last week gave a honorable mention not living child so this time i am giving a what's the what's the phrase kind of like a oh what would he be but this is going to be the jatiler episode i guess he's actually kind of like an honorary dugger i guess that's that is the phrase jatiler is the one that they end up adopting later on we'll see him

way way way later but because he lives in the tater tot mansion i felt it appropriate to give him an episode okay next week you'll see the next direction because we're officially out of children this was stretching it right Next week, you'll see the new direction. Well, we didn't do the parents, right? Like, is there going to be like a Lego hair and Michelle episode? Well, tune in next week. Oh. You don't even know. Tune in. I didn't know I was getting later at 11. Yeah.

Tune in next week. Okay, so before I actually get into actual episode, I want to cover a couple things first. A little bit of housekeeping, as they say. Housekeeping. First of all, last time we recorded, it was the day before Josh and Anna's, or as Tim hilariously said, my kind of joke, their anniversary. Get it? Their 14-year anniversary.

i had put up a poll that night do we think she was going to post because she had posted for the anniversary of their engagement her birthday right so not only did she not post when i really thought she i thought she would I didn't think it would be a lot, but I thought it would be something. Is she generally pretty active on social? Not these days. I mean, she was before, but post-scandal, no. But because she came out of the woodworks for their engagement anniversary.

I really thought she would. She posted nothing. But not only that, two days ago, she deleted her Instagram entirely. So now she's really not active on social media. Yeah. So interesting. You could take that a bunch of different ways. is she just sick of the shit doesn't want the pressure of it has no she's not going to get any sponsorships moving on you know right right or of course there's like the hopeful people being like does this mean that she was like not

She didn't want to talk about their anniversary. She wants to leave because she's having feelings. Who the fuck knows? But I do think it's something noteworthy. So I just wanted to bring it up. I text him. I was like, Anna deleted her Instagram. I got a frantic text at work. Yeah. I don't really keep them up to date on a lot of new stuff. And I'm trying not to look anything up about them now. I'm not.

I'm trying not to like follow any of them on like Twitter or Instagram or anything. Like I'm just trying to stay. Yeah. He's staying pure. You know, he's, he's, you know, we're really into the purity here. Well, yeah. Yeah. So, but I had to let him know. uh jean dress fits yep okay so that was just what i wanted to cover is there anything you need to cover before i get into the episode okay so this episode is called duggars on safari

And it premiered on January 27, 2009. And, you know, it really starts off with a bang. The opening scene shows them eating breakfast. And there's a very staged moment. I say staged because Michelle is shown placing cinnamon rolls on the table for everyone, which we know that was all for show.

because jill was probably the one about to do it and she was like no no no let me let me because if you notice jill's nowhere to be found like some of the older you know it's just kind of fun i'm like that was probably like a look at mom making breakfast exactly i feel it was very um staged in my opinion yep so jim bob announces at breakfast that they will be spending the day at the wild wilderness safari drive-thru

And Boob says that this will be like traveling over to Africa, like going inside Noah's Ark. Like going inside Noah's Ark, yep. Yep. We already did that. We saw that in the museum. Don't get me started on fucking Noah's Ark. It's a whole thing with me. And then he says, and it's, quote, and one of the best kept secrets in mid-America. In mid-America. Which, more on that and why that's a complete lie later on.

So apparently they're going to be volunteering for the day. So Jim Bob gets all into about how, you know, it's good to have a servant's heart. And I didn't write down like a lot of it because it's just, it's whatever. It's just like Jessa being like, it's really good when you serve other people. I mean, it's just like whatever. um i do want to say that when they asked jessa i knew it was her before her name was on the screen too i just want to point that out good job tim really i i'm sorry with

certain swaths of that brood. I just have like face blindness. He does. He really, that's why if you've seen in some of my like captions and visuals, I'm like Ginger or Jessa, Tim, because he really struggles the most. i feel like we've all come to the like like as a group everybody's accepted okay you can't fucking tell who the lost boys are like i feel like everybody accepts that right but for some reason i'm dead set on like getting tim to understand the difference between ginger and jeff

And it sounds like you did this week, so that's good. Well, they both have sassy faces, and they're both kind of snarky. And they both do the poofy bang in the front, and they both have crunchy hair. Jana has her very own look. Jill has her own look. Not saying that Ginger and Jessa actually... do look alike but i could see how someone like tim like a boy maybe not pick up on these things damn there i am talking down to you again you you all heard it

You all heard it right there. But what I was going to say was that when they asked Jessa about having a servant's heart, she was, you could, you could visibly. visibly see when she kicked into i need to recite the lyrics that i've memorized yeah yeah and and i wrote poor jessa went dead eyes and and read her script yeah

Because it felt like you could see her brain kind of shut off because then it became that like... Line, please. Cool. Yeah, it became that thing of like, I've memorized the song and now I know what to say. So my brain can shut off for a little bit. Yep. it's autopilot okay here we go kick that off um let's see where am i so oh i just i did write down what josiah says so the producer asked josiah so you don't mind working for free and he says

I don't mind working for free. It's a lot of fun. And basically you do get paid just in a different way, not with money, but you get paid in, as you know, you're helping someone else. And, and then he kind of like puts his. like his face to his chin like his hands to his chin and like that kind of like wondering manner i'm trying to like describe it to people you know when you're kind of like thinking and he says okay i want to think um

I'm just at a loss for words. Yeah. So the script ran out. So then Jim Bob heads out with the older kids and the youngest two are left with Michelle to come later on. So Michelle, I'm sure, is fucking panicked at the thought of having to... you know underneath her iblp like perma like gaze you know and like smile i think there's some deep panic in there that she's actually left to take care of her own children but i could be projecting hey she

She's ready for it. She already put a staged pan of cinnamon rolls on the table. That was in preparation for the day ahead.

So they arrive at the safari. They take the bus. I didn't have anything noteworthy of the bus ride, did you? Okay. I knew from the cold open that this was going to be a fame-y, heavy episode. Because they... put her front and center famy cannot miss an opportunity for some camera time and especially if it's like an outing oh yeah i thought the wedding was rough this one was a little this one was rough

So they arrive at the safari and they start by feeding the kangaroos and they're feeding them bread. The kangaroos are very cute. I like them. um and jim bob is telling famy because of how i wrote because of course famy is there just like we just kind of talked about uh he's telling famy to kiss a kangaroo and she says I thought I was supposed to wait to kiss until I was married. Yep. So there's the examples of why the producers love having Amy around. She's... Even though she...

She's just as annoying. She's the anti-Jim Bob. Yeah. And it's hilarious. In like a middle ground kind of way. Correct. Yeah. It's not antagonistic, but she can get under his skin. Yeah, exactly. So then they start this thing where they're trying to do like the whole lady and tramp thing, but with bread.

instead of spaghetti with the animals yeah this was weird and like ginger is trying it with a kangaroo and then like later on amy's doing it with like a buffalo like they're just like holding the bread between them and it's never successful it's just like but they're so like they spend a lot

of time on this and i'm like okay next next so yeah that was a little weird this episode's weird because there's not a light a lot to talk about because it's so many shots of just them still feeding bread to a different animal so i could sit here and be like well now they're feeding bread to the you know yeah to the goats when they showed up can i have a go back oh yeah yeah

And can I reference me having to raise my hand? Go ahead. Okay. Because it's something that we've been talking about. So, Whitney... leads this podcast. And that's fine. Women are never supposed to lead. I say she's the talent. I'm not a good wife. I'm never supposed to take charge. I'm just the producer that kind of helps every once in a while.

Whitney, as the talent and as the knowledge, is the one that leads this. She is the one that's keeping the tempo. I'm driving the Duggar bus. You're driving the bus. I'm Jim Bob in the seat of that 15th passenger. Awful. Awful. Not the role playing that I want. So somebody, I think on a review or something, said that every time I want to bring something up, I have to kind of go, can I interject? Can I interject?

and I just want to put it out there the reason why I'm doing that is because I want to make sure that Whitney's done with the point and then just be like I know she's trying to like get to the end of the episode so I'm like hey real quick can I have a go back and also we watched it separately take our notes separately yeah

And then I'm writing down every scene, all the quotes. And then he's kind of, you know, he has his own thing. So you'll sometimes hear me go like anything else, anything else. And literally a lot of the times when he's catching my attention, it's because I'm looking down and he wants to make sure I don't move on. Or she, yeah, or she.

moves on and i go hold on can i go back just like i did right now so so what i wanted to say what i'm talking down to you we know we we can hear it um so when they when they get to the farm or the right ranch or whatever you're going to call it the safari um all the kids are around and lego hair is talking to the the owner just about how many people he brought yeah and there was one thing i noticed

John David had a shirt that looked like an old, like, Aeropostale. Well, I mean, that's very 2000s. But when you looked at it. It said Our Apostle. Oh, I didn't even catch it. Oh, shit. It said Our Apostle, but it was in that same where it was like the parabola arc and then the little symbol underneath that looks kind of like a college crest or something. Yes.

Oh, my God. I'm going to have to go back in visuals and catch it because I'm glad you caught it. I didn't catch that at all. Because I looked at it and I was like, oh, it's one of those shirts. And I'm like, oh, why would they be wearing like... that i wonder what it says in the little crusty thing like which apostle like we could probably find the shirt for sale or something you know yeah so i thought that was good catch all right where am i

he was witty him and his witty t-shirt john david gd come oh i said gd jd no gds was the person complaining about all the gds and f-bombs um jd coming through again Okay, so where am I?

All right, so this is after the weird bread lady in the train thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then they're doing all the bread shit. And then there's a talking head of Jim Bob, and he's asked if at any point he was concerned for the safety of his kids. and go fucking figure of course he laughs and says no i i don't think he's overall very concerned with their safety you know whether it be letting their kids around animals like you know the buffalo or josh

Or Lawson Airport. I just don't think that's really a concern for him. No. And it was one of the Lost Boys. There's a sign that says don't chase the animals. And James. And he was chasing. Chasing a pig. Is that the one that the crew said would do weird shit to animals? I was wondering if he'd pick up on it. Because he was, and I don't even remember exactly what he was saying, but he was being a little. And there's the part of you, of course, that can be like, he's being a little boy.

But then there's that other part of you that goes... Well, it's because he was like kind of like yipping at him and then he was chasing after him going, I'll get you. I'll come get you. And I'm like, if you put creepy like piano music to that horror movie. And then.

of course putting that with what that person said you look at things a little different so you're like is he the because i remember him being like he's gonna be a fucking serial killer he always went after animals so to watch him going after an animal was interesting yeah i was like it's james when they have the talking head and they're asking lego hair did you ever worry about the safety of your children he had that like dumb blank

like IBLP look on his face. But right before he talked, he got the guilty look on his face. And he got guilty and he looked to the right instead of into the camera and then looked down and was like, no. You know what I mean? But you could tell he was like, this isn't going to look good for me. You will very distinctly be able to see it. So when you do the visuals, I want you to pinpoint that moment. Okay, I will. Because you can see it where he's like, oh, shit.

I should probably be saying something else. Oh, shit. I don't care about my kids. Yeah. So the next thing, they're heading out to feed more animals. And this time, they're in this giant truck full of bread.

Like, it's literally just, like, full of bread. I feel like they're feeding these animals too much bread. I'm like, where is the protein? I'm like, all carbs, man. Can you imagine the carb counts on these camels? Like, they should be eating... like vegetation and they literally had like a dump truck full of old bread which things will kind of make sense when i talk about some stuff later but um yeah there's just like a big truck full of bread to the point where like the older kids like amy and

um not ginger it was jessa see oh see i started to fuck up there oh geez so like maybe it's not that easy it was john david famy and jessa they're sitting in it and it's just all this bread it's like At least a week's worth of Duggar heels. Like, you know, the butts of the bread. And bagels. It's like a week's worth of Duggar discard. Duggar discard.

And actually, there's a little pop-up that ends up saying that this truck holds 3,200 loaves of bread, which is actually a year's worth of Duggar bread. To me, it looks like a week. Who's looking at specifics? So they're just driving along and it's basically John David doing all the work. He's shoveling the bread out to the animals.

famey can't resist being famey she's throwing bread at people and it's like food fight but it's stupid it's just i don't know i didn't have much to say about that it's just it's a whole lot of nothing really happening So I'm just going to move forward into the monkey portion. Are you okay with that? Last thing I got is that there was multiple things where they had a lot of camels. Yes.

The camels were cute. I think camels are cute as hell. I like camels. I like their puffy muzzle. I know. They're cute. I just like them. I mean, I just like animals. And they have big, long, lavish eyelashes. They do. Yep. Gotta keep that sand up. They don't have to get fucking, you know, extensions.

It doesn't seem like anybody likes the camels. I know. The Duggars don't like them. They're talking shit. One of them was like, ew, it touched me. Yeah, like Ginger was all like, mm, the camels are gross. Yeah, the little boy, like the little boy of the family, they were asking him how it is to live.

with all these animals and even in his answer they were like how's it living with all these camels and he was like not good not good i feel bad for camels they're fucking cute and they make a you know they make the pink cigarette i smoked in high school you know anyways

So now they're in the monkey area and they're watching this certain ape that he's really active and it's kind of fun. And he's jumping around and running around. And of course, Boob takes this as an opportunity to interject his beliefs. And he says with, you know, both. I'm putting both hands out right now, right? You got to open palms. You're like doing the gesture. And he says, man did not evolve from apes. And he follows it up with, although my children do act like this.

like them some of the time and that got some laughs from the children yeah but of course you know can't miss that opportunity we know how they feel of course Then it goes to a scene of Joy feeding a black bear that she's doing this through a chain link fence. And Boob says, that is a chance of a lifetime, Joy. You'll probably never do that the rest of your life. And then he immediately follows it up with. In the wilderness that would probably be dangerous I guess.

Did you catch that? No. Which I'm like, that says everything we think about Boob and his kid's safety. And that might be dangerous, I guess. Yes, I'm assuming.

Meeting a bear and feeding it in the wilderness might be a little dangerous. Oh, man. But I just felt like that really punctuated the whole safety thing for this episode. It doesn't... he's just so used to not giving a shit i know he doesn't even realize how bad it looks like he just doesn't care all right um and then i just wrote oh my god hippo is so fucking cute That hippo was cute. That hippo was working it, too. Oh, my God. I love the hippo.

Yeah, I love him. That's basically it. And then they end up going to see the tigers. I was a fucking tiger freak as a kid. I love cats. Which Mildred appreciates, yeah. We've both talked about how we love looking at... big cats act like house cats yeah they sit in boxes just like mildred yeah it's like they'll give them like a refrigerator box and there was like this like three-stage picture of it kind of like sniffing it like pawing at it

And the next day it was sitting in it like a turkey. It's the whole if I fits, I sit. All you can see is its eyes and its little pointy ears. Besides the fact that they can fucking rip you apart, they act like a cat. I love it. I'm not going to lie. There's an Instagram page I follow now that's like a like a bop cat rescue or like a wild cat rescue. And they're just they're medium sized. They're mean as hell. Oh, yeah. You sent me this. Yeah. Yeah.

But it's like they look like the University of Arizona logo. Oh, yeah. They look exactly like, yeah, like the stripes and like the little fluff on the cheeks. I just love kitties. I don't care if they'll kill me. I love them. But they end up saying that little fact is that each of them eats six chickens a day. So good to know they're not getting bagels. They're not getting bagels like the camels. These malnourished animals. I know.

So then the episode actually ends with them all getting to pet a baby tiger. And that's kind of it. We kind of ran through this. I just want to point out, did you notice that we never actually see Michelle come with little kids? Yeah, they mentioned that they'll be like, oh, you'll be coming with mom later.

So it made me wonder if they did go back later or if that was just their way of getting the little kids to... not shut up freak out about yeah and then like hopefully they forget granted i mean it literally they could have come later because this was them feeding versus like maybe they came later and they actually went through stuff yeah but i was like oh they never showed the little kids come so i thought that was interesting

Okay, so I'm going to do something. Do you have anything else to say about the episode before I move on? Okay. I'm going to do something slightly unprecedented. I'm going to do a mini deep dive or maybe like a snorkel on this that's not the actual deep dive. Okay. World, world, world premiere. So earlier I said I would tell you a little more about the facility and how when I was saying that, like when Jim Bob said that, I was like, that's not right. Like when he said, well.

The Wild Wilderness Safari Drive-Thru just shut down March 9th of this year. Okay. So this is following several scandals and violations over the course of the years. Oh, God. In 2017 a complaint was filed against them citing 68 citations against the Animal Welfare Act between the years of 2012 to 2016. Damn. Giving them all fucking bagels.

In 2019, they had to pay a $75,000 fine just to reopen. And some of the violations included at least 13 instances of failure to provide adequate veterinary care. 43 instances of dirty and inadequate conditions and then also insufficient barriers between the animals and the public like joy with like a fucking bear like right there yeah So some more specific instances that were, were that some animals were getting frostbite from being left out in the cold. Fucking awful.

and animals being mixed in cages such as bears goats and ponies oh my god are you fucking kidding me so in fact there's actually a video that surfaced in 2019 that showed a bear attacking a pony geez so the funny part that it being about a bear and then like him talking about joy this is a once alive they might be uh i guess dangerous like makes it extra funny not funny

The safari was run by the Wilmoth family and it started in the 60s when Ross Wilmoth got three buffalo and just slowly started collecting more wild animals. Oh my god. because that's how it should go of course so i mean that's your issue right here like like right there it's like wild animals are just not something you collect like a fucking beanie baby

Like, what does this guy know about wild animals? Clearly nothing. So by 1975, they were starting to charge admission to people to come through and see the animals. So that's kind of how it got all started. It was his own personal thing, 60s. 75 he starts charging this feels like real quick it feels like brian fellows from snl i'm brian fellow

One of my favorite Tracy Morgan characters he ever played on there. I think you've talked about it on here before, too. Yeah. But it was... I've probably said this exact thing. But it's funny. But if you don't remember... Go for it. At the beginning, it was supposed to be like a show where... A kid's show where they had like...

people from the zoo come with different animals and they were on there and he knew nothing about them and he was kind of he thinks they would be trying to steal his credit and like all sorts of dumb stuff ensued but at the beginning during the theme song the announcer I goes, Brian Fellows is not an accredited zoologist. He's just an enthusiastic young man with a sixth grade education.

And a love for all of God's creatures. I feel like that's what this sounds like. No, it literally is. And I keep thinking about when he was all, that bird is a liar. Yeah, they taught. They taught a parrot to say, I'm Brian Fellow. And he gets mad. That bird is a liar. The bird keeps saying, he was all, no, you're not. If you can't tell, I fucking love this sketch. Anyways, and I might be a little drunk. So Ross Wilmoth is not an accredited zoologist. Yep.

Oh God, I gotta find myself. Okay. I just wanted to leave this with this last quote from Leon Wilmoth, which he's actually, so he's the son of Ross. Okay. And we saw him in the episode. He was the one who greeted them when they got there. Okay. So in an article about the closing just this past year, Leon said, there were new challenges and requirements every day in operating the business and it was just getting to be too much. Okay.

All the requirements from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which licenses the business to show its animals to the public, is the biggest hurdle. Okay, yeah, so those are in place to keep the animals safe and people safe, like everybody's safe here. You know, these people that are just trying to make sure we're doing everything safe, they're the real hassle.

right and i mean and i don't have a whole lot of trust in the usda so if the usda says you're doing it wrong you're doing it way wrong like you know what i mean former school nutrition worker right there Can you tell? This is just exactly why it's not okay for Joe fucking Schmo to just like one day be like, I'm going to start a safari. It's the Tiger King thing all over again. Yes, it is. It's exactly. Anyways.

I just really wonder what happened to the animals. That's my concern right now. So that's it. So that was just like a mini snorkel that I just felt like I had to talk about of the place. Yeah, definitely. So that's not the deep dive. God, I always hope that they're like on the up and up. Yeah. Like when they went to that amusement park, I'm like, okay, how many people died from like poisoned? candy apples or something. You know what I mean? There's always like some scandal. Yeah.

Here you thought we were going to get through this quick and then I had to add something there then. I have a way of coming in and fucking it up every time we're going to get through something fast. Women, am I right? Am I right? All right. Anything else to add before we move on to deep dive? Nope. Let's move on. All right. Take a little break. Good evening, and welcome to Brian Fellow's Safari Planet. We were just talking about that. Because...

He wasn't an accredited zoologist. He was just an enthusiastic young man. So it's like he didn't know any facts about these animals. So the one with the parrot, he was like, my next guest just enjoys singing and being in a cage. I love it so much. It's so good. If you haven't, look it up, guys. It's hilarious. Anyways, that bird is a liar. Okay. Anyways. Hang on.

Okay. So today's deep dive is inspired by the date of the episode. Okay. It's airing, at least. So like I mentioned earlier, the episode we're talking about today premiered on January 27th, 2009. Okay. The focus of today's deep dive is on a post that was made by Rebecca Keller's. Then at the time, McDonald. Made by her husband. If you remember, Rebecca in the wedding was the ringleader of the ringlets. The very blonde one. With the glasses. Okay.

So she was married to somebody named McDonald. Correct. Okay. So her husband, also a Josh, Josh McDonald, he made a post on Duggars Without Pity blog days, you know. pre-reddit and stuff um Duggars Without Pity on January 28th 2009 so a day after the episode we're focusing on now but three days after the wedding episode which aired on the 25th

There was this week where there was a ton of fucking episodes. There was the wedding. And then last week's episode was on the 27th. And then today's episode is on 27th. So anyways. Okay. So the day after what we just, what we're talking about airing. So I'm actually going to read you the actual post.

I'm going to read it in its entirety, but I'm going to try to kind of just like muscle through power through pretty quickly because it's not the entire point of the deep dive. But I do think for context, it shows us his. his thinking at the time okay so josh posts where to start this is a post i've waited to write for a long time and i can finally do so now that the wedding episode has aired before now i was not permitted

permitted to speak of such things. There have been many comments about the integrity of the Keller family, and I would like to reveal some information that may set the record straight. You may ask how I can validate the information I will give. I am the guy that married the second Keller girl, and I was in the Duggar-Keller wedding as a groomsman. I have been following this thread since August of last year and have enjoyed a lot of the snark which I think is funny.

However, there are some items that were offensive because even if I don't agree with my in-laws on a lot of, or in parentheses he puts most, there are most things, they are still my wife's family. That and TLC did what media usually does. They twisted things to make them say what they wanted said. The supposed focus on sex, at least on the Keller side, is nothing in all caps compared to what TLC has made it out to be.

They want everyone to think that this is what conservative fundies are focused on, but at least with the Keller family, this is the furthest thing from the truth. TLC has done a good job of using their show as a tool to change some things into unreality.

I just want to take a sidestep for a second and say that I can see where people will come off with like, okay, they made this a focus of an episode, but these beliefs actually exist. I think they were going to give him those sex books and shit anyway. Of course TLC would fucking chomp at the opportunity to put this on camera.

But I think it's one of those things where it's like, okay, you see it as they put too much focus on this. Correct. But of course, TLC, as a reality show, is going to focus on the things that are the most interesting. Yeah. Having a fucking sex talk. is gonna be interesting right correct got to create that content right he says i can't speak much regarding the duggars as i don't know them at all outside of the wedding experience however

And then he puts insanity in like stars. So like wedding insanity. However, the Kellers are a very sweet family that don't really deserve the level of smirk thrown at them. dad keller which is what the older son-in-law and i call him is not the child molester everyone is making it out to be and i had to look that up and people were just saying he was like creepy and stuff and like gave off child molester vibes no actual real

like accusations. He has struggled severely with a chronic health condition over the past 10 years, and it's a miracle that he can still walk. He has a heart of gold that is intent on ministering to young people in the detention centers throughout Florida, and he has served faithfully for many years in this area.

Several of his older children have worked in the detention centers with him including Anna and my wife. I have been with him to these centers on several occasions. It is a difficult job. but one that he has willingly taken on at the detriment to his family's income. At this point, Florida will not allow non-residents and detention centers anymore, and therefore I'm not allowed to accompany with him, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

As he and his wife live in Texas. As far as our beliefs are concerned, there are many areas where I disagree with my in-laws and my own parents for that matter. This is where it's a little more interesting. I was raised in the same ATI slash Bill Gothard slash homeschool sect as the Duggars and Kellers. And as I grew older, I found the lack of truth.

in the teachings of this person and organization and developed my own convictions and standards. My wife and I are both beyond many of the things we were raised in and have left the quiverful movement and its associated mentality behind. The heathens. Right? That's not to say that we do not claim conservative Christianity. We both do. However, the fundamental junk that has permeated into... Junk! Junk? Oh my, such strong language. My goodness. It's like when Alice said tush.

has permeated into a legalistic mindset of supposed relevant standards and lifestyles are all sickening to me. The sad thing about it is that a lot of people raised in this lifestyle never even stop to think for themselves and consider what the Bible really teaches. I did, and that's why I fall on the other side of the line from the rest of my family.

snark at me for being a conservative christian but don't snark at me for thinking for myself it's starting to get a little more you know whatever The producers of the show. This is where he really just kind of rails on TLC. He has a fucking bone to pick with TLC. He says the producers of the show did a fairly lousy job of revealing the reality of who the Kellers are. The show's not about the Kellers. So, I mean, you know. That's true.

The interview where Dad Keller is talking about the wine grape juice thing was about 45 minutes long. They only put two clips in it to make the dramatic statements that everyone wants to see. How do I know? I was sitting in the sanctuary the whole time waiting for the wedding pictures to start. We were supposed to... Hang on, I gotta flip my page.

be ready at five o'clock the evening of the wedding I was ready but no one else was I sat in the sanctuary just off camera yet still able to see my father-in-law no I don't agree with everything he said but that's besides the point okay so understandably a 45 minute thing is not going to go into the episode.

Of course, they're going to pull the point. But I don't feel like I feel like he's very focused on the fact that you only pulled these points, but it doesn't take away from the context. Does he really believe that it's grape juice, not wine? Yeah. Yes. So. So you're saying that there's 45 other minutes of this, but what he said is not untrue. You know, like that's what he believes. So I feel like he's kind of like, yeah, that's how.

That's how reality television works. They record for hours on end. Yeah, you know, and they pull this much. That's just, like, that's not even, like, reality TV doing it for ratings.

I remember when we first opened the hotel, we had Channel 3 there. And they filmed like 50 minutes of stuff. You know how much made it into it? The interview with our GM. Yeah. And like... four second flash where they were like kind of panning through the restaurant yeah they were there for an hour exactly you know yeah

yeah i'm like you're explaining to us how tv works but i kind of take it back to alice when alice acted like it was some crazy thing that like tlc paid for those trips and it's like yeah um yeah like i don't know if these people are just if it was early enough in reality tv that a lot of people didn't understand that or if these people are just that naive but it's like yeah that's how tv works or are they just trying to find something to be angry to support their you know

He says, why weren't we interviewed on the show? I despise the whole TLC thing. The producers asked my wife three times if they could interview her and she refused each time. I told them point blank that I didn't want to be on the show. Why were we in the wedding to begin with? because we love Anna. Which I get that. I get the fact that they were like, we didn't want to be a part of this. But then you can't rail against the circus because you knew what you got yourself into. Yeah.

Like you knew that that was involved in this wedding. So it's like if you were so staunch, you shouldn't have been there. Yeah. Or you shouldn't have been in the wedding party. Well, I'm going to get into that point. He says, I'm going to sort of paraphrase. He says that he was asked to sign an optional waiver.

that they couldn't use his name and that they would blur out his face but he was told it was optional and so he said he didn't want to sign it blah blah blah blah and then he says that when they were taking pictures for the wedding that the main producer as he says good old sean

he has a major bone to pick with Sean, confronted me on this platform in front of most of the wedding party, including Josh and Jim, Bob, and the other 50 people sitting in the sanctuary. He told me in a loud voice that I had to sign the waiver. We got in an argument.

about it in front of everyone and when I refused because it was optional he said that if I didn't he wouldn't permit me to be in the wedding because he wasn't going to destroy his show over one person who didn't want to be on tv then he just puts jerk

Period. Which... Go ahead. Once again, if you knew what you were getting yourself into, you knew there was going to be stipulations when it came to it, now it feels like you're trying to... martyr yourself yeah to be like the i'm not going to stand for this for them making me do things and it's like you put yourself in that situation

so he says he signed the waiver to keep the peace with the family but that it was evident to him that the Duggars weren't in control but that it was definitely TLC but it's like yes that's what the show that's kind of how it works He says, oh, and Sean, because I know you read this forum, your assistant producer lied to me about my wife signing the waiver. He used that as a ploy to try to get me to sign it. She was never approached about signing it.

And you filmed her and used footage without her authorization where we saw her terrible hair. Which I remember correctly is against the law.

He said that the whole thing ticked him off. Whoa. Strong language again. He just says that as far as he's concerned, Anna loves Josh and the whole Duggar family. out of all the Duggar girls that she's the one who sincerely does want like a lot of kids.

how excited is she about the media attention I don't know she always was the one who didn't want to be on camera but like I said she really does love Josh and Josh really does love her oh then he talks about Ma Keller let's talk a little bit about Ma ma keller oh ma keller and them games right he says my mother-in-law she is quiet and always has been however she loves her children like no other mother i know

and not in an overpowering protective way she for one hates the cameras on her she doesn't like the camera and hates to be put on the spot but that's just who she is yes she is kind of stuck in the old fundamental extremely conservative appearance but she likes it so just let B.

Oh, and then he talks about their property. He says their trailer and property. Dad Keller gives roughly 15 to 20 hours a week to multiple detention centers and prisons throughout Florida. Their home allows him access to these multiple locations from a central spot. Yet again, TLC did a lousy job of depicting the Kellers. They live on multiple acres and have a tennis court, swimming pool, and soccer fields behind the trailer, which was never shown on the shows. From what I've seen...

The tennis court is literally a dirt. It's not like it's like a... poured pad it's an above ground swimming pool so there's like this like middle ground he's saying TLC is trying to make them look poor and terrible but then he's like but they have all this but it's like you're making the stuff they sound like sound like it's like

It's not like they have some resort tennis court and pool. There's a middle ground here. Yeah, they don't have grounds and... Well, you run out to the atrium and figure... But I also don't think that TLC showing their literal house is a...

an unfair depiction. It's their house. And once again... the show wasn't about them exactly like to show the fact that this is their house that is their house what do you want them to do like i don't know so and it makes it sound like i'm standing it from tlc but i'm just saying that like to film their literal house without showing all the property around who know who expects you to show

but they also have a swimming pool like that's their fucking house anyways um it wasn't a it wasn't a like a slander job yeah that was being pushed on tlc yep They have invested their lives in the ministry they're involved in at the detriment to their family. Spending tens of thousands of dollars of their own money to print books. I have some of his books and they are badly printed by the way.

They literally are going off the page. I'm not kidding. Oh, my God. They regularly have guests over. Their children are socially capable and adequately rounded young people. Sheltered, yes. Stupid, no. They are fun and engaging. I wouldn't have married my wife if this weren't so. Their church, they attend a church in their area, not the one that the wedding was at, basically. Let's see what else.

Trying to like skip some stuff. Just for the record, the whole Jim Bob's Josh sex talk on the day of the wedding was staged. I didn't think it wasn't. I mean, you know what I mean? It's like everybody knows that it was like we're going to do this. Yeah.

But it still would have happened if it wasn't aired. You still think he would have given him the book and everything? Maybe not at that church. I think it was like, well, I was going to do this anyway. We might as well make content. I think it's like might as well turn it into content type thing. Which is a very, obviously we see how that is in our kind of media.

society now you know what i mean it's like you got to get them follows you gotta you gotta get the the interaction to push you deeper into the algorithm you know which is basically what he's calling this out for yeah but he says shawn and the camera cruel crew told Jim, Bob, and Josh to have the talk. They said they needed it to get it for the show. Yet more evidence of how the producers are skewing this focus of it more on sex.

They filmed non-stop from Thursday night to Friday night at the hotel. It was literally non-stop with two different crews all over the ground. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. it was their wedding it's like yeah but they chose to use stage questions and elements that they wanted to make the show that what they wanted but i digress that's how tv works um

What about me and my wife? We are happily married and have two children. I have a solid career in technology. I am heavily involved in my church. I don't know if I will homeschool my children or not yet. No, we aren't going to have 20 kids. Yes, we will probably have one or two more. No, my wife is not pregnant. No, we don't want a reality TV show.

This is just kind of funny because you pointed this out in the wedding episode. Oh, and the wedding dress was my wife's. My wife graciously loaned the dinner napkin to Anna. Yes, I was ticked about the train getting ripped off. Just the beginning of Josh fucking things up. Ticked. Ticked. um blah blah blah he talks about the suits I don't give a shit um you can believe me if you want to forget if you don't I think I have included enough detail to convince you blah blah blah

I just wanted to set the record straight in regard to the Kellers and TLC did a horrible job representing them. Sean, I waited until after the wedding episode to post this stuff. You're welcome.

Oh, and that waiter was classic. I will give you that much. So his little nod to Jeffrey Knight, tantric dancer himself. Yeah. Okay. So I knew that I would cover just that because I thought it was funny. Clearly just kind of in defense of the Kellers and just talking shit about TLC and the whole thing. Trying to explain how TV works. of like this funny thing or whatever but of course i could not leave it at that so i had to keep diving a little bit more on josh mcdonald correct um

Okay, so we know that he and Rebecca divorced in 2015 after 11 years of marriage and, you know, Bush League two kids. Okay. So the reason for their divorce was listed as discord or conflict of personalities that destroys the legitimate ends of the marriage relationship and prevents any reasonable expectation of reconciliation.

We know that Rebecca ended up remarrying that fucking ancient guy that's like literally in the 70s. And it appears as though, as far as I can tell, Josh did not remarry. Okay. So they've been divorced like seven years now.

um in 2017 there was a restructuring of their custody agreement as josh had fought for more time with their kids okay he was just had like the typical like weekends and now he has more time than that okay so just a little recap here's what we know he grew up in iblp but he moved away from it which um he kind of left for like a more mainstream conservative christian type feel

But he spent five years as the pastor of an evangelical church. I wasn't able to pinpoint what five years. Was that while he was with Rebecca? After? not not entirely i don't think it was after i think it was either at least some part of their marriage i believe okay don't quote me though but let's now let's now talk about Josh McDonald of 2022. Okay. So when you go to his social media profile, right off the bat, his bio says, he, him.

Which to me already speaks volumes to a more progressive mindset. Correct. Because most uber conservatives are not down with the pronouns. That's my experience, at least. They're always bitching about it. My friend Angela, five years ago, was the first one at our job to do that.

and like in her email signature and I remember another like coworker of mine like being like oh my god and i'm like why the fuck do you care why do you care yeah it literally doesn't affect you at all we got fucking what's her face over here that has like the the clip art like blinky like

bouquet of flowers and the the scrolly fucking words in purple you can't fucking read i can't stand that as her email signature but i don't go fucking around telling everybody about it like why do you care yeah anyways so yeah so i was like huh like literally the first thing i saw and then under that it says empath dash bridge builder and then it says exvangelical which i just wanted to say he doesn't say ex evangelical he just like makes like a word like exvangelical

um he's an avid hiker mountain climber and he has a youtube channel where he has some videos of him like with his various hiking and he's like got a jeep and he does all of those like crunchy granola he's an outdoor as you type right also on his youtube channel is a video that he also uses as a podcast episode okay so far there's only one episode of this podcast

Which is 32 minutes long and it was released in December of 2021. And I did listen to that episode. It wasn't super riveting to be quite honest. I'd be curious to listen if he has... would do more but he hasn't up to this point okay but the episode was all about frameworks which is actually the episode title and it's just the gist of it is that our life is full of frameworks or ideas that basically dictate how we see things or how things are run.

So he references like the constitution. That's a form of framework or being American. We have this like framework and I heard of like, we're so much better than these other places. Like he just kind of like uses that. Like we have these frameworks in our brain. Right.

That's the basic gist of it. But what I really want to focus on is an entry he has on his website that was actually just recently posted. august 28th of this year so just a little over a month ago it's titled worthless okay so i'm going to paraphrase most of it but we'll get to a few points where i'm gonna all do some quotes so he starts off by saying quote one of the largest impact craters christianity left behind in my life was my sense of personal identity

Then he goes on to say that it was compounded by his homeschooling and how he was philosophically isolated and his knowledge development was restricted. We know. he talks about how like none of this really occurred to him and then suddenly he's like a 40 year old man and he finally sees it for what it really was and he says quote lonely isolated and without context beyond the teachings of christianity

He talks about how Christianity centers around the idea of framework. Again, using this. This is obviously a phrase he's kind of like honed in on. framework that the fundamental nature of humans is centered around sin. obviously because of original sin so he breaks down in you know very basic terms the story of adam eve and how because of original sin no one is inherently good

And he always has goods in quotation marks because it's like, what the fuck does good actually mean, right? So no one is inherently good and that nothing good can happen without the help of God. Which is something you and I have talked about a lot. Yeah. So he says, quote, from this perspective, the way I viewed myself as a child was rather worthless.

He talks about how you're putting your trust in Jesus to save you to avoid hell and like all that stuff. And then he says, quote, and this is where I struggled with my own identity as I left Christianity. Up to that point, any good. again in quotes, in my existence was there because of Jesus. When I removed Jesus from the formula, all that remained was a sinful human that was worthless.

Then he moves on to the topic of how Christianity prohibits any sense of self-love. So I thought this was interesting. He lists a variety of things that he heard over the course of his life as kind of like examples. I just whittled it down to three that kind of stuck out to me the most. One is the greatest way to love yourself is to love God and obey his teachings. Okay. Yeah. Feelings are fickle and will lead you astray.

I have so many things to say. Now or do you want me to get through these three? Real quick. There's kind of two things that are swirling around. I love Pete Holmes and I love his podcast and I think he's a funny standup. Um, he was married in an ultra Christian, not. Not IBLP, like super conservative, but he was definitely just kind of like very devout Christian. And him and his wife got divorced.

And then she left and got with another guy and got married right away. And he was kind of stuck in this really like shitty spot. And he said he will never forget going to a priest at his church. And asking, he goes, now that I've been to therapy, like... He essentially, when he went to this priest to ask very like self-help or mental health questions because he had been taught everything you need comes from the church. Yes. So once he went and he was asking him questions to try to figure out.

how do I deal with kind of this sense of betrayal? How do I deal with this sense of loss and this mild codependency that now I have to get over because now I don't have that person in my life? And the only answer he would get was that he needed to pray about it.

And I actually love that you point out that it can happen anywhere. It's not just IBLP. It's not just whatever. This is a much bigger thing than that. It's much more widespread than just a specific... cult that's a religious type idea and that priest is not trained in helping somebody get through this yeah and that's okay

But there's such this fight against sending you to somebody who doesn't believe what we believe to try to get out because they're afraid that it means that they're going to lose their control over you. Yep. So we don't want you to be mentally. and emotionally okay if you are not still part of our club yep so and then my last interject this one's a real short one um a A story came out in multiple outlets about how there's Jewish traditional schools in New York City that...

get state funding. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because they say that they teach, you know, X amount are legitimate kind of like educational standards. And then they got the funding.

And then what they found out is this long-term kind of analysis of what they were actually teaching. They were teaching no reading or history or like... language comprehension or they weren't teaching these kids anything they were just teaching them the religion side and there was all these they interviewed so many students that were like

I got out of there assuming that, like, cool, I got to the end. Like, I graduated. Cool, I'm ready to go on the world. And then I realized that I essentially couldn't fucking read. But they got the religious. side side of it so they're good to go out into the world you know yeah so anyway i it's just two times where it was like people needed something and they're told that's what they get And that's where they go. What you need is just religion. You don't need education. You need religion. Yeah.

So the last one is to yield all your desires, rights, interests, and feelings over to God. Let him have them. Let him give you the desires, rights, interests, and feelings so that you can live your life for him.

So those are things that like stuck with him, right? So then I'm going to directly quote a part that he said that I found actually really good. He says, the Christian identity is not your own. It is the identity that God has already prescribed for you. And unsurprisingly, it often looks much like those who have gone before you. Or, at minimum, it is the identity permitted to you by your parents. your pastor, your church, or your perspective of God. Without Jesus, I had no worth.

And I thought that was really like, you know, to say something corny, I thought that was a powerful statement. Like out of his whole thing that he wrote, that was the thing that I was like, that stuck with me the most. Like you don't have your own identity. Yeah. So his next section that he writes is called Christianity requires people to believe they are not valuable in their own selves. He talks of the ideas of how left to your own devices, you're pretty much just, you know.

gonna go to hell um destined to hell and that the values you have their value comes from jesus um how he talks about christianity and fort christianity enforces a sense of gratitude that you know such a sacrifice which was of course jesus

for you on the cross and blah, blah, blah. Such a sacrifice would be extended for such a wretched person such as you, you know? That's Catholicism to a T. Right? The guilt. He says as kids that if he... if he was paid like any form of compliment or recognized in any kind of way it would be work he did just anything

He said that he was taught to say thank you, but then to immediately also say it is only by God's grace. I know people like that. Really? See, that's new for me. That's not something that was common in my... mormon circle or anything like that like that's to me is like extreme you know um so yeah so nothing can be about you yeah it's god doing this

You know, it's nothing about you. And you just, you couldn't possibly do it on your own. So you learn how to be a woman in an IBLP. Pretty much. Okay. Got it. Then he talks more about how because of this, he says, quote, owning the reward and value of my own actions that created good in this world is still a foreign feeling to me. It's very interesting.

it's like you're like it's not being able to accept a compliment but just not just like i feel awkward it's like that no this wasn't even done by me this was like you know like trying to be like oh i actually did this so and i think When I was in church and we did things and they were good things for the community or whatever it was, I don't think I ever had anybody that 100% of it is like, well, it's not you, Tim.

It's the Lord working through you. Like, I felt like the people that I was around were very much like... You are doing the right thing that you feel should be done that is beneficial to other people. You're having a servant's heart, as it were. But then it was never like... Well, you couldn't do it, trash ass. It's all because of the Lord. It was very much like it was a...

It was a two-tone thing. Yeah. It was a thing where, yes, you are doing the right thing and that is fantastic. And that's kind of your way of showing that like you believe these things. So I felt like even though I came from a super traditional kind of like Mexican Catholic.

background i still feel like they didn't take away the fact that like you are part of doing this yeah and it shows good on you because of this and i have to say that i don't have i can't relate to that at all like i don't remember like i'm not saying that people wouldn't be like oh thank god or like whatever but i don't feel like it was like you don't do shit like you know it was just kind of a not not maybe in some of the like other teachings but not so direct like this yeah you know

And he just, yeah, he goes on to talk about how all of this, of course, leads to a lack of self-identity, depression, and loneliness. Go fucking figure. Well, there was even points. I was thinking about it. when uh you were doing an earlier part like i remember feeling i've been saying the word community for a long time like you look for community you look for community in in

All sorts of things. That's why comic book shops are fun. Because you go in and it's a bunch of nerds and dumb comic book art things that I get excited about.

the cashier guys getting excited about it too you know what i mean yeah so like when i was in church and younger i did always feel like when we were in town we were just kind of going through the motions everything felt so uh showy it was a pageantry there was no real relationships I was fostering because everything was this kind of like facade of this being a real thing

So when we went on like youth group trips, I think that was why we loved the youth group trips so much. Because kids can't fake it for that long. And when you get a bunch of them together that are of a certain age, the real people start coming out. Yeah. And I always felt good coming back because I was able to go, cool, look, I did something church related.

And I also had real conversations with people. I had real, you know, interactions with other human beings that are kind of in this community. So then when we came back and it... Because it wasn't just an hour or two at church. It was like, you know. Exactly. So it's like when we came back, it sucked because it kind of felt like.

That was the part that I liked about this, and it had nothing to do with hanging out with my friends. It was the fact that it was real. Yeah, and you're like, now we're back to faking it again. Exactly. Putting on a show. Yeah. Yep. And so I really paraphrased what he said. It's actually, I might even link it at some point in stories this week. It's an interesting read. pulled on the things that i thought were the most telling so i'm at the kind of the last part that i pulled right now but

To quote him, he says, So when I finally decided that I could no longer claim Christianity as my belief construct, I was met with this huge question. Who are you? Who is Josh? Paraphrasing now, he just says that the answer is still evolving and that it required letting go of those beliefs and choosing to believe that he is worthy and valuable and has value. I think he probably...

hear that exact same sentiment echoed and people that leave kind of any religion yeah oh yeah it's just you know which i think just kind of leads us right into the wind down um Okay, so just starting with the, you know, the funnier stuff. First of all, I'm just very curious to, I just wonder, what does this 2022, Josh? What would he say about that 2009 post that he made? To me, he clearly sounds like two very different versions of himself.

um and that original one in 2009 he's you know he's very protective of the kellers and pa which i you know you know i i get to the extent of like that was his family he was at that point sounds like probably i don't know if he was happily married but he was married like you know i don't know like who the fuck knows but you know he's not just obviously he had some sort of fondness for them he was trying to

not come out and like you know bash them and whatever right but i'm just curious to hear what he would think now with obviously his sort of change in mindset and also knowing now that pa keller you know has completely backed someone who has hurt his daughter and grandkids and you know wrote a letter to the judge about josh being a good daddy like i just would love to hear what this he him

you know, version of Josh McDonald would think now. Because he doesn't have a connection to them anymore. Yeah. And also he just is like an entirely different place in his life. Yeah. Entirely different.

Overall, I just, I find his evolution interesting. Oh, I'm sorry. Evolution. Jim Bob said evolution doesn't exist. So I'm sorry. I don't know what else to call this, but you know. Phrasing, please. um you know i just find his change does that work yes that works um i find his change interesting so he goes from growing up in iblp So then 14 years ago, so mathematically that makes him about 26, 14 years ago he's saying that he's out of like the cult mentality.

And he doesn't believe their teachings, but he does completely self-identify at the time as a conservative Christian. Then going so far as to being an actual pastor of it at some point. to then where he is now, which is basically, I don't know, I take it as pretty much basically denouncing Christianity as a whole. So I just find it really interesting.

And I feel like it really speaks to the steps that it takes to pull yourself out of these types of things. And how it's just like a step by step, like small process at a time. There's just like so much. for you to deconstruct you're undoing a lot of like micro trauma yeah and so i feel like you have to start at the top with the things that are like the most obvious and then like work your way down to the roots right yeah so

I think that's why a lot of people, they'll just kind of settle in that middle ground. So it's like, get rid of those glaringly obvious things like, you know, four million kids, the long skirts. The long, crunchy hair. You know, ATI. Like, no music or TV. Like, I feel like they kind of just get rid of that kind of freak show aspect of it that makes them stand out. You know, differentiates them.

And they get rid of all of that so that they just kind of blend in with like the mainstream conservative Christian. Right. Which is to me like a ginger currently. I know you don't know a lot about like current ginger, but to me this describes like a current ginger.

pull out all the stuff so on the outside you look like man you're like a with it you're you're out because look at you wearing pants look at you you just went to a concert this week like but their base her base beliefs are still a lot of the problematic things i feel you know things that i think are problematic yeah but i just feel like digging any deeper i think it's just more than most of them want to do

It's because you know it's going to get shitty before it gets better. Yeah, it's more than they're comfortable confronting. So that middle ground is easy. Let's shave off the shit that makes us look like a freak show. And just kind of land in and we're blending in with the crowd, you know? I think if there is any sort of serious things that way, it's kind of like the maybe you don't want to dig that far down because it'll probably... ruin your relationship with your parents exactly it's a

It takes it like, you know, it's a little bit more like, okay, my mom accepts that I wear pants and my mom accepts that, you know, I might be listening to Christian rock, you know, or whatever the fuck it is. Like Ginger went to a Michael Buble, you know, concert this week.

And I just have to tell you, Femi, of course, had to like insert herself and her comment. And because you know how like what those people like people that they're actually friends with the comments go on top. So, of course, Femi's like, I'm so excited. You're getting to experience. And it's like her wave. like, knowing that, like, she could just make something into something. Like, she just can't fucking not, you know? But, yeah, so...

I just feel like you're like, okay, if I just don't do this and this, but it won't completely separate from my family. But something like this Josh guy, I think that his experience... What he's doing is, I feel, extremely rare in their circle. Yeah, definitely. I mean, going from literally one extreme to the other. From his upbringing to where he is now, it sounds like. That is literally his opposite.

like as you can get obviously it took a lot of years he's in his fucking 40s now but that's still i just don't feel like a lot of people land on the end of like i think christianity might be bullshit right Yeah. So it's just it's for all the reasons that he mentions that completely uproots your entire identity. And most people don't want to do that. Yeah.

he of course he kind of focused on like the jesus aspect like the value aspect of you know like kind of like owing everything to jesus but you know it just goes so far beyond that it's everything you said it's Your relationships with your family. It's all of that. It's everything you've ever put any kind of attention to in your life or anything that's ever surrounded you is just completely different.

Well, I think the general idea too is like you see it whenever there's conflict among family members and then there's like a holiday. It's always the mindset of like... well, that's how family is. We're going to come and be miserable. You know what I mean? Yeah. And we've had this discussion a lot with like family parts that you like cut out of your life.

And it's like you don't even have a big blowout. There's no confrontation. But it's like, I'm just not going to communicate with... those people and i've told those stories to like people at work or you know little one-off things here and there they're like well you're gonna like talk to him again right because it's like family and it's like but if if i wouldn't put up with certain

Behavior from a person off the street. Why would I put up with that with somebody just because we randomly have the same blood? Because they're family. Yeah. It's like if you're not a person that is upping.

like plussing my life i don't know if that's somebody i want to waste bandwidth on yeah yep um did you notice how he i just thought it was he talked about having really feeling like he didn't have an identity And I just kept thinking like, oh man, like not trying to discount his feelings. I'm not saying they're not true. I'm like, oh man, imagine being a woman in this situation. So I think it just shows how bad it is for women.

like if he felt this as a man that just because of religion in general he felt like he didn't have an identity imagine being the fucking woman in a situation where they can't do a damn thing yeah they have it's all controlled and decided for them he's saying he feels the control and the you know because of religion which i'm it's true but i'm like try being a fucking woman all this jesus christ so i just

Yeah, I think that really shows you how bad it is. And I definitely enjoyed the talk of how with God or Jesus, like him talking about basically it's like almost like you have no direction without it. Like you would just be bad. Like you couldn't possibly be good on your own. Like, you know, it's just an impossible thought that without religion or putting it to God all the time, you couldn't possibly.

Possibly have your own moral compass. Correct. It's just such a foreign idea to these people. And it actually made me think of, what is it?

is it teller of penn and teller he's a you know very known like atheist but i remember hearing about like i just remember one thing you know he says a lot he's he talks about like religion and things a lot but one thing that really stuck with me was one time when he said that somebody asked him like a religious person of course asked him well what keeps you from like murdering people yeah and he said

I murder as much as I want, which is like, I mean, I don't know the exact words, but he's like, I murder as much as I want. And that's none. And that's none. Just like this idea that without religion is a guide. You would just be out like fucking running amok. You'd be out murdering and raping. Yeah. Like you have to have religion and God and putting things to God every day to not be this horrible fucking human being.

It blows my mind that it seems so foreign to them that you could just, you could be your own guide. But then it also ties in. That tells you more about what their... forced to think rather than what everyone else is oh yeah because it's in their head there's no way outside of having this belief

That would keep you from doing these bad things. It's crazy to me. Like I can't wrap my head as much as they can't wrap their head around like how we're not out there murdering and fucking like Tim, why aren't you out there fucking raping every woman you see on the street? And why aren't you praising me when I don't?

do that today you went a day without raping and murdering but like it's just as what that's wild to them it's just as wild to me that they can't see that that's not hey i don't need to be religious To not want to do that. But you even see it in like religions versus other religions. Yeah. Where it's that idea of like. They demonize each other. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And.

It's a way to jack themselves off because it's like, I picked the right one or I was born into the right one. And you just obviously don't understand. you know you can't you know right it's just it's so fucking pious this idea that like well i got it wrong and you didn't you know or you got it wrong and i didn't you know what i mean yeah it's wild um

The last thing I just wanted to talk about how I like, I feel like now for like the millionth time we're hearing about how your own thoughts and feelings. are just completely suppressed now not saying that it's we we've picked up on that through reading the things that we've read this is the first time it's being laid out it's like hey this is what happened he's saying whatever what we've been thinking

But you're just, you're not allowed to like have your own feelings and everything is because of God. That's for God. to decide for you um or if you're a woman that's for your husband to decide for you but it made me think of how when i was a kid I was constantly in church listening to people bear their testimony, you know. And a lot of times in their testimonies, they would have these moments that they talk about how they felt the spirit.

Or that they felt an answer to their prayers. Or like felt some sort of confirmation. You know, something along those lines, right? Like coming from God. And I could just never relate. I had no understanding of what they were talking about. And I just remember being like, what do they mean? Everybody's talking about this moment, right? And of course, they would have a million reasons why I'm not feeling this. What am I doing wrong? Or whatever.

And then there was one day when I was older that like it fucking clicked. And I think I was like a teenager. And I vividly remember. I wish I could remember what song. I can't remember the song. But I remember I was listening to something secular. Not hymnal. You know, had a rock beat, I'm sure. I'm not a fan. it was i was hard boiling eggs um but i just remember i was listening to this song and i got goosebumps and like i just got kind of like that feeling you get like you're like whatever

And I remember being like, I think I fucking get it now. And then it was then that I realized that what I just experienced as a moment with like the secular song, not at all related to God. you know in any way shape or form or religion but like a moment where like probably just overwhelming emotion is probably the only way i can like describe it um was probably at my best guess at the time was i'm like i'm like this is probably what they mean by feeling feeling the spirit you know um

especially because the reason it all clicked is because of how many times people are like oh i was you know the song was going at church and i just felt the spirit and i was like they probably got the same fucking you know like goosebumps that like i just got and it was then that i like realized that all those years that i could never relate was because like I knew that those moments of like emotion or like understanding or a feeling of peace was just my own feeling within myself.

and i feel like that's like fucking corny to say like it was from within me right but like i feel like it just because they are so in the mindset of you put everything to god They don't know how to differentiate between their own feelings or it being like this sign from God.

Like it has to be this sign from God if I suddenly felt an overwhelming feeling. You know what I mean? I know that feeling too. Yeah. I remember you hit it on the head. When I was once again going to like youth group trips and we'd be up in like Prescott for like three nights over like a long weekend. And I remember. I loved a lot of the interaction stuff with me and the other like teenagers that were there. But I remember there was always those moments.

We did a lot of really cool stuff while we were up there. But none of it was important to me because of my faith or my relationship with God or my whatever. my studying of the scripture, it was important to me because of the people. And the things that we were doing were important because we were all kind of being vulnerable and we were all...

Kind of analyzing ourselves. So even though it was done through a level of religion, I felt like it was very personal and interpersonal between everybody that went on those trips. And I remember there was a couple of things where it was that same thing where... It would be like the, oh, don't you feel it? Don't you feel it? And I never felt anything. And I remember looking at, and I remember driving home from one of those youth group things on the bus.

And having this really weird like existential crisis. Because I remember going. Am I the only one that doesn't feel this? Because then it was what's wrong with me? Like I once again. I have to be the problem. Yeah. So why do I not experience this? And then combine that with those teenage feelings of needing to belong and peer pressure and.

Then I would look and I'd be like, well, all these other people were acting that way. Do they feel it? And I don't. Like it just it preys so much on your need for being part of the group. Yeah. You know.

And I remember you talk about having that feeling later on from a song. The last time I really hard felt that feeling was about... four or five years ago and it was a camping trip that me and my brothers-in-law and a bunch of friends take every year and I remember we had gone this big long ride on atvs and it was like through the forest and it was dusty and it was all this but we had a point we were all like yeah we're tired we want to go back to the campsite so we got on the highway

and rode our atvs on this highway to take the short way back so instead of it being a three-hour trip it was like a 20-minute ride up the highway and i will never ever forget It was, the weather was nice and cool. And we were kind of like going through like this really hilly, hilly, northern. Healy. Healy. What is this? Chilly, heel.

this really hilly area and we were like coming in and out of like groups of trees and like the sun was out. And I just remember the sun hit me and I closed my eyes for a while and it was like the wind. And that was when I got that feeling.

yeah it was just that like overall buzz of contentment yeah and but like it can't just possibly be a moment of peace yeah it has to be a sign from and you know and i'm not knocking on anybody like if you feel like you're getting actual signs i'm just it's fine i'm just but my point is that they may it out to be like you couldn't possibly feel that on your own correct

And that's what the part that's like crazy for that feeling of peace. God, the literal effects of music on your body. God, like we were watching Mulan the other night. Right. Because we've been.

ever since we mentioned a lot ever since we watched it a couple or talked about it a couple episodes ago i mean number one every fucking song in mulan is a banger it is a great movie underrated so good but we watched it last night to kind of get like you know get this out of our head because we've been thinking about it so much

And there's one particular scene, because I kind of knew where my deep dive was going at this point and stuff like that. I wasn't finished yet. But there's the scene where she climbs up the pole. And she's at the top and she throws down.

the arrow i fucking like i get goosebumps every time i get like fucking like oh my like i get this overwhelming feeling and shout out to brandy who listens to the to the podcast like she ever since that episode she was like i love mulan actually did that um make a man out of make a man out of you for like a floor exercise in gymnastics which is pretty cool which we know how i feel about gymnastics

but like she talks about like and i i was like that scene and she's like oh my god that scene always gets me too but it was just funny when we were watching that last night i'm like if you were like a super religious person I'm like, I feel like they would say that this feeling is the spirit, but I'm watching Mulan. It's just really the feeling of overwhelming emotion. Yeah. You know what that moment is for me in that movie? What?

When they're singing a girl worth fighting for and they come up to the burnt up village. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's that hard cut to the fact that they're talking about a lot of really good shit, and then they get kicked in the fucking teeth with reality. That gets me emotional every time.

But like overwhelming emotion couldn't be from you. It's a sign from, you know, depending on like their situation. So I don't know. It was just a thought where I was just like, someone might say that this was like my, the reaction I'm feeling. I think they would equate to the spirit if it was in a context of.

anything remotely that they could say is a spirit. So you don't think the Lord was speaking to you through Mulan? You know, you know, I can't be 100% sure, but I'm going to say about like 98.7.

percent not you know um okay where am i okay so yeah so i just kind of finish up on that thought um very random thing that kind of stuck with me. I don't know if this means anything to anybody else, but it did kind of stick with me that he is now an avid hiker.

the reason for that is i'm not saying i have no idea about this man's life i could be all fucking wrong maybe he's been hiking even through all of his years of religion but the only reason it stuck out to me is because i feel like hiking is a good place for both like disconnection and connection all at the same time agree right so i just feel like it really lines up with someone who is kind of like leaving faith and coming into their own

like creating their own um what's the word i'm looking for like like i don't know so here's he he keeps talking about this word framework framework yeah so it's like he's leaving this christianity framework and like creating i just feel like for someone who might be possibly you know starting over like hiking is like the thing and i'm not saying every hiker every person on a hike is going through some extras you know like this huge crisis or whatever but i just feel like

It's kind of one of those places where you, again, disconnect and connect all at the same time. But it's like a place for you to really reflect. It's a very introspective place. Because you have nothing else to do. Yes. And completely outside of the space of just prayer. I mean, you could pray. I'm not saying you can't. But like outside prayer and like Bible study.

So it just kind of really stuck with me because I could totally see that as he's going through this kind of thing being like being out in nature. is like the thing that is like bringing peace and calm and letting him work through his own like thoughts. I don't know if anybody knows who Melissa Urban is or follows her. I love her. She's way more than just a creator of Whole30. She really makes you think with a lot of her posts. I'm a huge fan.

But she calls hiking going to church. So she'll say, today I went to church. She's getting emotional. That's why she stopped. I'm not religious at all.

at all but I just always find it interesting how she's just like today I went to church and she always calls God a she but the thing I like about that because even whether you think man right i just take it as a representation as like god is whatever the fuck you want it to be yeah and you see that you see that in we've had the discussion where a lot of major religions like the the lessons to be learned are the same

don't be shitty at the very core yeah don't be a piece of shit and then they end up being a giant piece of shit to so many people around them which is what's so ironic but it's it's that idea of like what if What if the big secret is that this other level of existence...

that everyone's trying to reach whether it's nirvana or god or whoever you know whoever it is that's like this other plane of existence what if it's all the same right i don't know it's just and like you talk about that like going out into nature and doing that for some people that's their way to achieve a little glimpse into this other plane of existence and when you see people that are like oh man they're

When they ski, that gets them into that place. What if that's all it is? Every single person is so different in order to find a way to tap into this other plane of existence.

And at the end of the day, I don't understand why anybody gives a... fuck what anybody actually believes whether they believe in god or not whether you know i don't know whether they think fucking noah's ark is real or not can you tell what i feel um but like you know just like why do you actually care i think the thing that the only thing i judge by is your actions how you treat other people are you harming other people are you doing better for the world i don't give a fuck if you believe

It's something I don't exactly. It is all about what you leave behind in the world, the damage or good you do. What does it matter? What the fuck you believe? Yeah. So I don't care if you're a fucking atheist. I don't care if you.

are devoutly you know believe in god and you believe in heaven and hell and i don't believe in heaven i don't give a shit i don't give a shit like i told you about that time that when i said that none of that manner i didn't care where i was going like that's not a focus and i could watch that person i worked with like literally filing me away into like fucking heathen like in that moment they could not wrap their head around i'm like i don't care i don't care

Whether heaven and hell exist. I'm living my life. How I think I should. Regardless. I don't even care. If there's a God or not. I'm not saying there isn't. I'm not saying there is. I don't fucking know. I'm saying I don't know. And at the end of the day, I don't care because I'm still living how I think I should live. I was thinking about my old sous chef, Arthur. Good old Arthur.

Oh, Arthur, we love him. Him and his sister are decently devout Catholics. And, you know, when we were going to... put an offer on our house and anytime that we've done anything uh no not noteworthy but like kind of you know momentous in our lives arthur's always been very um oh me and lynn are gonna pray for you yeah and i would always thank him and then he hit a point where he'd be like i i prayed about you last night i'm sorry and i was like what are you apologizing for yeah

And he was like, well, I know you and Whitney don't really believe in that. And I'm like, I'm just happy you're sending me positive vibes, man. Yeah, no.

My thing at the end of the day, the only time I'm going to take offense to you saying that you prayed for me is if it's in some fucking condescending ass way where you're like, I'll pray for you. That's when you can fuck right off. But if it's someone's way of telling me that they're like... thinking of me and they meet in a positive way fucking go for it cool thank you you know like i don't care like that's fine i don't

i don't know so then the people i go both ways like so then people who aren't like believers getting all mad about that's like shut up someone means as long as they're not being a condescending fucking asshole what does it matter yeah i don't know that's just me other people could have different opinions

But yeah, so it's kind of funny. Do you have anything else you wanted to say? I thought we had a pretty interesting kind of mini dive on our... our religious ideas yep um i think it's kind of funny because so recently we've gotten a large influx of new listeners this week uh you can tell number one from instagram follows but also from just like our analytics and stuff. And yeah, so I was going to, I'll talk about that in some sec, just some reminders.

But I will say one thing I appreciate about Instagram is some of the light, the banting is some of the light like roasting I get from people. Someone said this week they were just like. congratulations you made through an episode without crying i just fucked it up and i just cried but yeah almost yeah or another person they said uh i think her name's jen she's a local she's a arizona name um

I loved the roast. She was like, wow, I was really disappointed to hear that you gave away pieces of your heart to Miguel in kindergarten. Anyways, so yeah. I didn't make it through an episode. Damn it! I almost made it. I didn't think there was going to be anything this episode that made me cry, but apparently you never know. Anything else you want to say before I give some closing spiels? Nope. Okay.

So with this influx of new listeners that I was talking about, I just wanted to point out, so if you're coming in later on or if you've just never checked it out before, on our Instagram, digging up the Duggars pod, that's where we're most active.

You can start from the beginning, obviously, of our grid feed. And you could work your way through from episode one to present, obviously. But the grid feed... does not show everything because we do quite a bit in stories not necessarily every single week but most most weeks we have some stuff that's kind of fun and interactive So to capture all of that, if you actually go to our reels, we have our highlight reels, I mean.

under our highlights there's a highlight for every episode and you can just work your way through it and you can kind of catch all the stuff because some stuff even gets brought up later and we still save it to that episode so it's just kind of a fun way to make sure that you're catching all the things So go to our highlight reels. So again, Instagram, DiggingUpTheDuggarsPod. Email us at DiggingUpTheDuggars at Gmail. And yeah. Buy us a pickle. Do you know what we need?

you know like we had one of those things in my old i'm sorry um at my old old job the hospital we had one like it was a big s i forget why it was an s but it's like you kept track of all the times without instances i think we need to have like a chart in here that's like how many this many episodes without when you fucking cry yeah it's my baguette to carry though yeah we're at zero

It's been zero episodes. Without her crying. Yep. All right. Is that it? Yeah, I think so. This has been an eventful day. Our power went out when we were about to record. So we waited like five hours to get our... And we felt like our front door was going to blow in. We're missing shingles on our roof. Yeah.

It was a whole thing. Yeah. So it's been definitely been a whole evening. It was a harrowing journey to get to recording. It was. But yeah. So have a good week. I think the last thing I have to say is I taught my little friend here. a cool a cool trick uh what do you say bailey hi i'm brian fellow no you're not