Episode 14 - I’m Your Jurisdiction

Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe it? We are from Arkansas, no? episode 14 this makes it the justin episode is there really a justin there is but you know what the funny thing is he's the last one next week you're gonna start seeing kids we watch them give birth like her have okay so this is the last kid before they started with the specials

Okay. Again, we came in with the names late. I wish I thought of it from episode one. It pisses me off. But yeah, this is the last kid before you'll recognize the names, I think, a little bit because we watched them being born. Okay. So anyways. So today's episode is called Big Family Reunion, and it debuted on November 3rd, 2008. I feel like it started so apropos. So...

It started with... So, of course, Baby Cannon. She's fully loaded up with number 18. She's 20 weeks along. And, of course, they have to... you know load up the whole brood to go to the doctor's appointment together it's like a field trip it's like literally like having there i mean like was there permission slips for them to sign right

Can I preface one thing? Absolutely. So before they did the intro where they do the whole, this is my family, you know, we're not traditional, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. They'd usually do kind of a cold open. with some clips from the show that are about to come up. Yes. Spoiler alert, they go to the Creationist Museum. Spoiler!

um in this episode but there's a point where there's an animatronic audio animatronic audio animatronics of noah from noah's ark and it's him and he has like bugged out eyes and he goes something terrible is coming i didn't notice that they had that in the beginning you're not wrong noah you are not wrong not wrong all right

He's talking about a flood. We're talking about something different. All right. So Baby Cannon is going to get the ultrasound. Yes. We're... debating the uh chance that they had permission slips yes that's where we're at okay did they have to pay their three dollars like you know whatever put in an envelope right so

While they're waiting in the waiting room, they have this little part where they're talking about, like, Michelle's like, the kids had some great ideas for names. And they just kind of flash around to different stuff. And Jed, I think it's Jed. I'm going to say I think after a lot of things when I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it's Jed. He has such a fucking square face. Jed. I can't stand Jed either. You'll see. Jedediah.

Jedediah. Oh, okay. You said Jed, and I was like, is there a kid that I've never heard of before? It's just the shortened, and people call him bunk bed Jed. It's a whole other thing. Anyway, so Jed, I think, says, Jefferson Thomas. See what he did there? The little switcheroo there on Thomas Jefferson. Look at that. Look at that. Ginger says, Jesse Grace. And then Geppetto says, uh. And that's it.

He doesn't give anything. He's just like staring there stupidly. Yeah, pretty much. And as always, they vote along gender. lines gender gender uh someone in our messages they were like gender because of last episode they're like gender if they'd had baby number 20 that would have been the name like it is very close to ginger but it's gender

So they vote along gender lines. So go figure. The boys want a boy and the girls want a girl. Just full surprises these Duggars. I bet some of them like pickles. Oh my God. You know, some of them don't. They're so individual. So then when they're in the actual room, like back in the appointment, Jill says, other ladies a lot of times like to show off their pregnant belly. My mom is different. She likes to be covered as well as possible. So she'll have someone hold a drape or something.

Then it cuts to a talking head of Michelle saying, there's no skin shown until the baby's born. And then you see the baby's skin. And that's the only skin I want to be seen. I just like to be modest. So in other words, be ashamed of your body. Well, it's just it's so over the fucking top and ridiculous. It's like you're making this a way bigger deal than the rest of the world is making this. Number one, personally, I don't find stomachs that.

offensive that's a good news for me as he's sitting here shirtless damn right as we're recording this all could be yours um so i don't find stomachs that offensive number one but number two like It's a pregnant belly. Like it's very different. I feel like even people who do not normally show off their stomach.

are not like oh my god during an ultrasound it's you're you're having you're growing a fucking baby like get over it like it's just so ridiculously over the top i'm like you are creating this problem this like sexual type thing that does not exist if you weren't making it such an issue yeah i don't know and also lady you've done this like 18 other times like

It's fine. She treats it like she's in stirrups and like giving birth and her kids are watching. It's like, it's your stomach, lady. Move the fuck on. It's ridiculous. And like the way the. The cumbersome way in which everybody's having to hold a drape and look away. It's so ridiculous. I can't think of another way to describe it. Yeah.

I think you hit it on the head, though, like the you're making a bigger deal out of this than it would be if you didn't make a big deal out of it. I have never watched a TV show where people are getting ultrasounds and I'm like, oh, look away. Like, you know, there's certain things where you're like. No part of my like, oh, my God, their stomach is showing like they're putting gel on you. And they're like, I mean, you're it's not like you're naked. It's your stomach. Yeah. And I think that's.

kind of a societal thing i think there's leftover tracts of like be ashamed of the human body and everything should be bad and we're going to create this veil of mystery around it that it doesn't really need. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So, I mean, we're used to this shit, so it's pretty, it's over and done with.

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I forgot to say the key thing. It's one baby. Because they're like, is it two? It's one baby and it's a girl. I almost skipped over this because that's how anticlimactic it is because we're so used to this by now. I did think it's funny that when they... kind of do the announcement then the camera pans over to look at all the kids sex pest is on the cell phone he's probably talking to anna yeah it's

Probably with some sort of like adjacent person, but I did think it was funny. All the kids are like, oh, and he's homies on the phone. But you remember how when they did the last announcement on the Today Show and he was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, he like acted like I'm just.

so shocked i'm like no you're not now you're on your fucking self but like you don't give a shit was this the same pregnancy oh it was the same pregnancy oh yeah oh my god see what i mean this was the same that was the announcement of it right okay

20 weeks. I'm just so used to her having fucking babies. I can't even keep track of who is who. All right. So the next scene goes to Michelle saying, we're packing today. We. Are we? We, Michelle. I used to do that when I was a server where I would go to the table. I used we for everything. How we doing today? Like it was like I was a part of the journey. You're cooking that. We are working on your food. We're going to get that food.

as soon as possible we so yeah sure michelle uh they're packed so uh jessa's packing because and there's even a point where she kind of shows like how she's like this under part of the bus is joseph through blah blah blah and you know whatever um i don't feel like we have to get into those details so much anymore but they're packing because they're headed to her family reunion and it looks like they all need coffee

Yes. It doesn't look like there's a morning person in the house. And they kind of talk about it more in episodes as we go forward, but they're night owls. And you'd think with that many kids, I'd be like, go the fuck to bed. Go the hell to bed. Yeah, I know. Go the fuck to bed. But then again...

doesn't matter it's like the sister moms are taking care of the kids so what does michelle give a shit right but they they stay up late and they wake up late so yeah they're not mourning people so then the next morning It's bright and early, and they leave relatively on time for Duggar time. Like, Jim Bob seems impressed, and it does look like they got it together, and it's not as frantic as it has been. Well, didn't they say that, like...

Most of the little boys were sleeping on the bus already. Yes. Which is smart. That saves you some stuff. If you have that opportunity. They were fully dressed. Like they weren't in pajamas. Yeah. They were fully dressed and sleeping in the little. bunkhouse tour bus thing so that they didn't have to wake the kids up so it's just the older kids and parents i say that with being generous um getting

You know, just kind of getting ready and then getting on the bus. Right. So they leave relatively on time and they're road tripping their way to Ohio. So that's where the family's at. And I don't know if you noticed, but there's a really quick shot while they're on the bus where Jill and Jessa are holding up a cell phone in between them. Oh, I didn't notice that. As if it's on speakerphone, right? Okay. And it's like between their two faces and they're holding it up and it says Anna Keller.

so i was just like i thought that was funny that they're just like so they obviously like talked her i don't know if it was like oh josh let's talk to your girlfriend or like you know or whatever but yeah it says anna keller and they're talking to her

So along this road trip, they do make a pit stop. Yes. They stop at the Creation Museum. And the founder of the museum, his name is Ken Ham. And he he actually gives like a personal tour to the family, like the whole time that they're going through it. And a little background on Mr. Ken Ham. He was a high school science teacher, and he says that he saw how evolution was a real stumbling block for people, even listening to the message of the Bible, and he felt a real burden.

to create i'm like isn't a burden of that bad thing like i thought that was i don't know he felt a real burden to create a creation museum to challenge people to another point of view because we don't have enough people trying to push their bible on us so you know we need a whole fucking museum now yeah um did you know anything about ken ham before this i did not did you yeah oh you did oh okay see i don't yeah

I've been on Reddit for a long time. So like when things came out about the place, they had some funding shenanigans happen where people were like, there's no way they can keep this thing running just on donations. So where are they getting the money? And like, yeah.

it's it's been a mess okay and don't quote me but if i think i remember the last thing reading that they went bankrupt recently bankrupt bankrupt i'm not surprised i mean if you're fully um like donation based for the most part and that could be hard like yeah i mean even like you know the like regular museums usually have some sort of uh

government funding that they can tap into you know what i mean i don't think that one and i feel like a regular museum you might get more like do you just get more like local like support where this is i don't know i shut up what the fuck am i talking about what do i know nothing So anyways. You heard it here first, folks. I know nothing. You guys heard it. It's recorded. Tim, I'm just so glad I just said that. You said it, not me.

Okay, so then Jim Bob says they wanted to bring the kids to reinforce the fallacies of evolution and how it was impossible for this world to just all happen by chance. And then... It's funny because then there's this moment where Ken Ham tells them how the exhibit that they have that has like kids and dinosaurs together has become the icon of the museum to the secular world. Because it's ridiculous. I don't think that's the big home run swing he thinks it is.

And then Jim Bob says, evolution is something a lot of people are teaching, but it's totally unscientific. Then Michelle talks of how God created the heavens and the earth and that science backs it all up. Every time she has to like explain her beliefs or say something religious, she gets like... crazy eyes she does like it's like yeah yeah like there's less of a chance that you're gonna disagree with her if she looks like she's gonna murder you in your sleep

God created everything. And if you don't agree with me, I'll gut you like a fish. And then she'll have Jill cook you for dinner.

so then there's this funny part where so i do i like i don't think i noticed or remembered maybe i noticed before and i just didn't remember it but i do enjoy the parts where the producers kind of ask the questions that the rest of the world you know yeah

It is kind of sad to watch the kids after everything in this scene, though. So the producer asked Josiah if he thinks his parents are censoring. And he says, do you know what censoring means? And Josiah, he basically is like, yeah, it means like leaving stuff out or like whatever. And he asks if he thinks they're censoring him from seeing the other side of things. And basically, Josiah just says no. Yeah. Yeah. And then Jill says, the world is 6,000 years old like the Bible says.

And then John David, which did you notice that this is really truly the first episode that there are more talking heads than like Josiah and Jill. John David. Like John David had never. Exactly. So this is like a real turning point. Right. So John David. And he's awkward as hell. Yeah, he is. He still is. He says, it's pretty obvious once you start looking into it what really would be more factual.

Then Jessa says it's actually more scientifically proven than billions of years old. I just love that it's so much like this is what my parents have said. So I'm going to use the exact verbiage that they use. you know it's again the parodying like we always talk about yeah and i think them in particular and i hate like you see this in a lot of like polarizing ideas they feel like they can say anything without any sort of analysis because they feel like they have it all figured out.

Like we have it all figured out. We know better than you. So I can say these things and I can judge you negatively because I understand it. And you just don't get it. Yeah, exactly. Well, so then Jana says she says. Bible clearly displays all that. Some things, and she really says some, like some things they say in evolution, they make sense. But then if you read it and it's like, stop right there. Stop right there, Jana. You almost had it.

Then if you read the Bible, it lines up to where it's not correct. It's totally different. Yeah. There was a lot of use of verbiage that was around... it's pretty obvious. Oh yeah. It's just like, if you don't understand, like you're stupid. Like, yeah. It's obvious. Yeah. And it's easier to assume.

that it is very obvious and everybody should understand as opposed to maybe having to think a little bit deeper about your own beliefs you know what I mean it's a lot easier just to be like well you just don't get it

It's the equivalent of, well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. No. Go read the Bible. So then there's this pretty great montage of the producers asking people on the street. questions that relate to this and obviously this is again kind of like having the cousin amy there almost this is uh we're going to show you the opposite end of the spectrum type the straight man yeah so

I just love the snark of it all. There's just serious snark behind it. So they ask if they think if the world is 6,000 years old. Guy one just says no. Guy 2 says no, and the producer asks why, and he rattles off, well, fossil dating, carbon dating, common sense, I guess, probably is the biggest one.

Then the producer asks, do you think dinosaurs and humans existed together on the same planet? Guy number one again just says no. He's very like to the point. No. Then there's a lady and she says, no, I don't think that happened. then there's a guy three that pops in and he says and and he says it like there's like a tone or like kind of like a look to him that's very much in like a kind of like a duh way why are you asking me this like this is dumb

So it's kind of like this questionnaire yet like kind of like squinty eye kind of feel. Yeah. And he says dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago and humans didn't. And then some other guy later says. Oh, it was the same guy. I'm sorry. So the same guy kind of says later on, he says science is based on research and theories that are supported by research. And creationism is more of a belief. It's a good way of putting it. Yeah. Because one of them, one of them.

is based off of analysis and seeing quantifiable data. And the other one is, if you don't believe this, you're obviously lesser. Yeah. you don't it's more guilt it's more guilt well yeah that's what they're the best their religion is the best at guilt yeah it's how they operate so then going back to guide number two if you remember guide number two is the one that says uh i guess common sense is probably the biggest one

Well, that same guy flipped the page. He says, I don't know that dinosaurs and humans were kicking it together back then. He said, how about to each his own? So he has a little bit of a...

A little snark there. A little tood. So basically, the museum is a walk through history of the world, but through the lens of the Bible. So there's a part with Adam and Eve that is... defrauding her luckily so eve's hair cover her tatters but uh adam's are his nips are in full display and and they're just like look at adam and eve

Eve. And I'm like, you're allowing this? I wasn't even looking at either of their countenances. I know. All I was looking at, I was like, well, Eve has pretty long, her hair looks pretty well maintained. Good conditioner, maybe. But yeah, I thought that was funny. I will say that regardless of whether the beliefs based off of scientific fact are pretty ass backwards of a lot of this stuff, their animatronics seemed really high quality. Did they? So I did feel like they were...

They were well put together. So they got some good donations on those. Exactly. Good funding for the animatronics. Oh, yeah. And I just wanted to point out, though, did you notice that the Dug Girls are... wearing the same ma keller and anna yes it's which is also what they wore when they went went to silver dollar city so i'm like this must be their like going outfit like

Clearly, this is their like, oh, we're going somewhere. Get out the pink polo with the stripes. Right. They're going out Luke. So that's kind of it as far as the museum. My whole thing is like at the end of the day, like I, I believe in the science end of things. That's my personal belief. But at the end of the day, I really don't give a shit what got me here.

I think that's just what's so different. I'm like, they're so focused on like... oh but it has to be this i'm like who gives a shit we're here like what the fuck like i don't know that's just where i'm different i also don't care where the fuck i'm going after this either i'm like i'm gonna make the best of what i'm doing here and be a good person and that's all i care about but anyways that's a whole other conversation but it's just

To get so up, I'm like, it doesn't matter. Why does it matter? I remember, so when I went to U of A, I went for a science degree. I went for biochemistry. And one of the biggest things about science is just the... The idea of science is admitting that you don't know something, but you want to learn something. And they'll want to call you out when you make changes because they're like, see, and it's like, well, no, that's part of the process. Yeah.

I analyze new information. As you get more information, things change. Yeah. Yeah. So that was one thing that I keep thinking through with this is that, like, being... beholden to science is admitting that you don't know everything yeah whereas they wanted yes yeah you know where i'm going like faith is the idea that like nope i'm 100 sure it is absolute and there's no going against it yeah because if you

If you ask to dig a little bit deeper into what those beliefs are, you're attacking them personally. And also they don't have anything else besides it's what the Bible says. Correct. So they're just like, for them it's, to them it's simple.

The rest of us, maybe not so much. But to them, it's like, well, that's the Bible. I don't even get why you're asking this question. This is the beauty of this, like we've talked about, where we see different things. So like you ended there. I still have a couple nuggets from the museum. Hit me with it. So they go into the portion of the arc. Don't even get me started on Noah's arc. And Kenan.

Ken Ham says that they built 1% of what the Ark actually was. So it's like this little room and like where the... Like the windows would be, there's like TV screens and it's playing this stuff. And there's a couple animatronics inside. Apparently the dude from the Big Lebowski, Big Lebowski.

The dude from The Big Lebowski was on Noah's Ark because one of the animatronics looks exactly like him. I actually remember now that you say that. Like, I didn't think that, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Somebody get that animatronic, a white Russian, please. And then one of the things that the animatronic says is, with each passing day, judgment draws nearer. Be careful, Josh.

That was what was going through my whole time. I think they're... Is that the moment that the countdown started on his? Yeah, exactly. You know, God has a plan for all of us. So God knew this was coming, right? It was meant to be. I mean, he knew. There was also a point where they asked Ginger, hashtag free Ginger, are you having fun here? And she just like sneers at the camera. I don't remember that. They're walking through...

Like the Jesus section where it looks like he's in like a forest. Okay. And it was the one where Ken Ham was like, look, he has a lamb. And then they show this like Jesus animatronic with like a little lamb next to it. And yeah, so as they're walking through that, one of the cameramen or producers asked Ginger, are you having fun here? And she just. gives the most, like...

teenager angsty look at the face or look at the camera. I'll have to go back. But yeah, I don't remember that. But I don't put it past her. I mean, I think that they knew. And so like every episode, they're like, when can we ask Ginger? Where can we make Ginger look miserable? And then the last thing I have from this section is Ken Ham was taking a break. So they had like a an assistant guy that was walking through a part and it was supposed to be.

After Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Oh, the dinosaurs. And introduced Sin. Yes. And there's this scene that has like a velociraptor looked in dinosaur. And it's like roaring. And now all of a sudden the dinosaurs are not nice and friendly. Now they look mean and their teeth are sharp. The fear. Right. And then the guy explains that. Since Adam and Eve introduced sin into the world, now the world isn't as good as...

As it used to be. They're not vegetarians anymore. So now the dinosaurs are eating each other, which did not happen because before that, all animals were vegetarian. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like... So I'm... I don't know. I can't even... I paused the DVD and just sat. And I feel like it was that meme I've ever heard. heard anything so stupid it gives you Forrest Whitaker eye because I felt like my right eye was twitching as my brain was trying to process the fact that all of these animals

Used to be vegetarian. I know. And he said it with such conviction, man. Yeah, I remember. He was so sure. Fucking Eve, man. She's the reason nobody's vegetarian anymore. Women, am I right? I mean, in that case, why isn't like biblically, why aren't the Duggars vegetarians then? If that was before things went wrong, right? Why aren't they fucking vegetarian? Tater tot casserole, theirs has meat in it. And no vegetables, by the way. Anything else on the museum? No, it was...

It was definitely a thing. I could go on soapboxes right now. Like I have a huge, Tim knows, I have a huge issue with Noah's Ark that like I rail him on forever. But we will move on. There was a... a picture that they had up of Noah's Ark for real. And it was like two elephants, like carrying like two by fours up a ram. I thought that was funny in general, but then on a side tangent. Very helpful elephants.

There's a bunch in the show Futurama, there's a bunch of like climate changey type things going on, weather. And I just told Whitney about this the other day. So there's going to be a giant flood and this gay man makes a giant boat. And he puts two animals of every kind. And one of the guys goes, but all the animals that you put on here are male. How are you going to save them? And he was like, there's parts of the Bible I like and parts I don't like.

It's so funny. Or there's a meme that's been going around Reddit where it's like from some... children's picture book and it's showing all these animals and the two lions that are going up the ramp are both male are both male lions good luck saving them lions i know god they both they both got the mane like you know So funny. Oh, man. I could go on forever, so we will move on because I have a serious issue with Noah. Oh.

Gather myself for a second. So then we're finally to the point where they're getting to Michelle's family reunion again in Ohio. And it's at her sister Kathy's house. And they end up, her sister has two pontoon boats that the family has to ride over. Because it does look like she has a pretty big, nice property along some water.

and yeah so they have to take the boats over and kathy says how you know i'm gonna have to be reintroduced to all these kids oh my god like and she seems kind of like embarrassed by it but it's like i don't fucking blame you lady i don't think michelle knows her kids so it's like we can't expect you

and we find out that it's been four years since they've seen it so think of how many kids there have been at least four kids born and yeah it's like michelle doesn't know her kids it's okay kathy we forgive you This is also the very first introduction of their modest swimwear. Yeah. But you really only see it on one little girl. Yeah, they don't really show a lot of it.

on somebody. So just you wait, Tim. You don't even know what you're in for when you see it on like an older person. I want to buy one of these for me. Just you wait. I can't wait for you to actually see it. So I felt like I had to acknowledge that it was the first showing of it, but it's not really a great debut. And Lego Hair decides that his explanation about the swimsuits talk about how...

It's better for people to be focusing on your countenance while you're swimming and not showing off a bunch of skin. And with Josh around, it's probably better that the family's not showing off a lot of skin. Yeah, yeah. There was one thing he got a little right there. So then Michelle's sister, Frida, and I can't help but say Frida because we both love the nanny and Frida. So Frida talks about how she was 18 years old when Michelle was born and how she helped feed and diaper her.

sister moms again yep go figure this is why michelle's like this is fine this is what happened to my family's fine it's normal yep And they're having the get together because Michelle's dad is in early stages of Alzheimer's. So they just wanted to get the family together while he was still able to kind of.

get around and know what's going on so it was kind of sad Frida didn't want to say what was going on with grandpa and then they were showing kind of a talking head with Michelle and like she wouldn't say what was happening either like it was like a niece yeah Frida

Frida was like, well, you know, it's been, he's been doing well, but it's been, you know, he has, well, well, I don't want to say it. And then he like kept, she kept moving on and then Michelle did the same thing. And then her niece was like, he's got, he has early said Alzheimer's. Just fucking say it. It's not shameful. It's a part of life that happens. You're not going to make it worse the more you say the word. Seriously, don't say it.

So then Michelle's like, there's just kind of like little flashes of different moments. So I'm just going to kind of, I'm just going to talk about some of the highlight ones. If you have different ones. chime in but michelle's nephew says i'm older than her by two years but i still have to call her aunt and i still have to call him uncle and he says it kind of like with like a like a little bit of a tone i gotta call him uncle yep

And then her sister, Evelyn. So if you remember, Evelyn was the one that people were like hoping was Alice because she's Evelyn Alice. Yeah. But. She's not. But Evelyn says, I think my mother and father wanted two different families because Michelle and Carol are the second generation and the rest of us, the first five, we were pretty much grown when they were younger.

and then grandpa finally arrives did you have anything else you wanted to pop in before that okay so then grandpa arrives and i will say there is sort of a sweet moment where he cries when like the little Duggar boys like give him pictures because he and like yeah he just he just kind of cries and I don't know it's sort of sweet yeah there's a really awkward I don't know you family hug yeah

um and michelle's like oh the boys can't wait to hug you and it's like i'm sorry like the bottom half of your family doesn't know him yeah and there's this really awkward thing of one of the lost boys like Giving him that awkward side hug. And I know you said your family didn't do that. My family's Mexican. You have to hug everybody. So it's like I would stand there with somebody that I've never ever met before. My mom would be like, hug them.

And then give me like the mom eyes and then I awkwardly have to like hug this man that I've never met before. That's why I struggle with... get-togethers in general with Tim's family because like I have anxiety it's social anxiety on top of it so I'm constantly like oh god when I get there I have to hug everybody when I leave I have to hug everybody and like when little kids get sent over to me I'm like you don't have to hug me it's okay I promise

move on to the next person yep okay so that's all i have for the episode do you have anything else there was just one point where josh did like a little speech Kind of to everybody that was there. And he was like, we all want to hear what Josh has to say. Yeah. And they.

cut into it at the end and he was just like you know one day i really hope to have this kind of family when i'm your age and it was it was just as awkward as when lego hair talks where like it felt staged and it's like dude just well my takeaway from it is I feel like Josh really thinks that he's like, has something to say. Like he's really saying something of value. And it's just like, you're not really, I don't know. You can just tell that he thinks that like when he speaks, it's something.

And you can tell with his mannerisms when they were driving to the amusement park. and the SUV that had all the things. He thought he was hot shit in a champagne glass when he was talking about all the features that this car has when they left their sisters in the middle of the driveway. fix a tire and he was driving away in like a Camaro or a Corvette or whatever it was you could tell like when he was getting in like he thinks he's hot shit. Oh yeah he does for sure.

Yeah. It's just funny to see it because then now we know what we know. So you're like, you don't even know what's coming for you, bro. Yeah. I mean, that animatronic knew. Oh, yeah. Judgment draws near. Who was it? Was it Noah? It was Noah. It was probably Noah, yeah. Fucking Noah. Or the dude, either way, you know.

Okay, take a small breaky break, and then we'll be back with a deep dive. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our U.S.-based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans, or financial losses alone.

Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. okay it's deep dive time and i just want to say that like clockwork mildred was not around for that first half And then she came in here and she jumped into my lap right as we were getting started for Deep Dive. Because I feel like she's like, oh, yeah, I was I was part of this. So I'm here for it. So we just posted. I had just posted a picture yesterday.

of how mildred was helping air quotes helping me with the deep dive so she wanted to be a part of this she's gone already but um she she showed up she made face just want everybody to know she was here

It's a cute little face. It's adorable. Okay, so today's deep dive is all about Michelle's background up until pre-Jim Bob days.

So that's where the cutoff is when she meets Jimbo. When it all went downhill. Pretty much. Okay, so the first thing... gonna do is give you a little bit of background on her parents just because i find i'm a slut for details and so i just like to hear like little things you know kind of paints the picture a little bit more so let's start with her dad who we saw in the episode His name is Garrett Rourke, and he was born December 7th, 1924. Garrett was the third of four kids.

And sadly, when he was four, his dad died like very, very young. So that left behind his mother, who was only 22 years old. Fantastic. With four kids ages six and under. Oof.

in 1928 just as the great depression was like getting underway so she had her first kid at 16 yeah like i mean yeah so there she is 22 years old she just she's a widow the great depression is rolling and she's left with four little little kids so obviously she's left completely broke and she doesn't have a whole lot of options so she ends up turning her kids over to a children's home

The oldest, who happened to be a girl, she was placed in a foster home, but the remaining three kids, which of course includes Garrett, they were placed in an orphanage and they ended up being there for eight years. until their mother was able to remarry and then be able to afford to get them back. So they do eventually get to go back to their mother. And it sounds like they had a pretty good relationship with the stepfather from what I could kind of tell. Okay.

So that's just a little bit about her dad. So then Michelle's mom, her name is Ethel. I love the fucking name Ethel. I love it name. Ethel's maiden name was Hardin. So Ethel Hardin was born February 19th, 1927. And she was one of eight kids. I couldn't find anywhere specifically stating where she was in the eight. But she's one of eight. Okay. And she too also unfortunately had a parent pass. When she was 14 years old her mother died from a diabetic coma. Oh damn. So that's.

Like yeesh. So they both lost parents at a very young age. So then Garrett and Ethel, they got married on April 21st, 1943. And so... that makes them roughly and when i say roughly i'm just taking the years and subtracting i'm not looking at months like right too too much work to look at months and figure out exactly but just subtracting the years that makes them roughly garrett being 19 and ethel being

16 which is if you think about it that's roughly the ages of boob and michelle they were 19 and 17 right they're 19 and 16 which is just funny because 19 and 16 common in 1943 not common in 1984 right like boob and michelle were young for getting married in 1984 So Ethel quickly got pregnant after they were married. So Apple doesn't fall far from the tree with Michelle. But Garrett had just joined the army and he was sent to go serve in World War II.

So the oldest sister, Pam, who we saw in this episode and we also met her in one of those early specials. If you remember her. Oldest. Pam, she was born June 14th, 1944, but it was three whole years until Garrett was able to come home and even meet her. So the beginning, the first few years of the marriage, they weren't even together. He wasn't even around his child.

Right. So that's just a little bit of background on the parents and how the family came to be. Now let's just get into the kids specifically. So we just talked about Pam, oldest. Born in 1944. Then we have Frida. She was born in October of 1948. Then there's Evelyn. Wannabe Alice. She was born December 1950. Then we have Kathy. That's where they were having the reunion at. Kathy was born in September 1952. Then Garrett Jr. He was born June 1954. That's the only brother.

The only boy in the lot. Yep. Then there's Carolyn, who was born in November 1961. And then Michelle, September 1966. So the reason I rattled off all of that is just to really paint the picture of the considerable age gaps. Correct. So there are 22 years between Pam, the oldest. And Michelle the youngest. Like, 22 years is a lot. So, if you remember from that special, Pam was pregnant with her third at the same time that her mother, Ethel, was pregnant with Michelle. Correct.

So remember how Evelyn spoke of like the two generations, essentially. So the first five are born within a five year. I'm sorry. First five are born within a 10 year period, 1944 to 1954. Then there's a seven year age gap between those two, quote unquote, generations. Yeah. Where Michelle's sister Carolyn is born. Then adding to the gap even more, there's a full five years between Michelle.

and carolyn right so it's like there's gaps upon gaps upon gaps right like it's pretty considerable to me and it's like i can relate to this to an extent so i too um the baby in the family like michelle i'm the youngest of four and we so but i'm the you know the youngest and my oldest sister brie there's 12 years between us i thought 12 years was a lot and then they've got 22

22 years and then we also kind of have that two generation feel yeah because my oldest sisters are like two three years apart and then there's this giant six-year gap whereas between their two generations there's a seven-year gap we had a six-year gap my sister kinsey right above me she's three years um older than me and then there was me much like michelle

It sounds like we were both accident. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My mom says I'm not an accident. You're a surprise. I'm a surprise. Because accidents are bad and surprises are good. That's from Roseanne. Is it? There's a point in Roseanne where DJ runs in and then he's like, Darlene keeps saying I'm an accident.

And she says, you're not an accident, you're a surprise. And he's like, what's the difference? And she's like, well, one of them, you're not excited when you get it. And the other one, even though you weren't planning on it. You love it once you have it. All of us youngest, man. All of us unplanned youngest are like, our parents are like, no, you were a surprise.

That's what my mom used to tell me. Surprise, huh? Accident. So in these weird ways, I can kind of relate to Michelle. So mine wasn't quite as severe, but I definitely... I felt that where it's like my two oldest sisters, their experience of their childhood is entirely different than the experience of me and Kinsey. Like it's two very different things. So in one way, I do have that.

in common with her yeah but that's it yeah ending right there right there it ends so let's get into michelle's childhood so when michelle was in grade school Those older five children were basically out of the house and starting their own families and moving on with their lives, leaving just her and Carolyn at home. Michelle has described herself as a tomboy.

She said she liked to climb trees and catch frogs and loved anything athletic. So she loved gymnastics, speed skating, riding bikes, etc. And she talks about how as a kid... She was basically allowed to roam free in her neighborhood. She's like, I kind of got to do whatever I wanted, wherever I wanted. And she said that her neighborhood was mostly little boys and there was only one other little girl.

she said the boys would be building forts and that she would want to join in on it and they'd be like no you're a girl you can't join and she said that she would beat them up so it's really funny to me to think of michelle like beating up a little boy but she said that she was like known as a neighborhood bully because of that i just imagine um the little redhead girl from up

Ellie. Yeah, like Ellie is a little girl where she's just like... running around and getting shit and getting dirty and well and like literally as i imagine like a little michelle being like that and i'm like oh before you had everything beat out of you like when you were actually a person it is sad like it is sad when i think about it like that

And I think as we go forward, you'll kind of see the parallels with Joy. So we'll kind of see that. So Michelle also describes herself as being a little spoiled. being the youngest. And she kind of talks about how her older siblings were like continually giving her crap about how spoiled she was and how they had such a different upbringing from her.

They were like, you don't even have to keep your room clean, let alone do household chores. So they clearly didn't have jurisdictions for little Michelle. And her siblings talked about how when they were young, they had to learn to cook.

and they're like you don't even know how to make french toast i'm like she still doesn't she still doesn't do the cooking like where's jill when you need her So when it comes to money, it sounds like her family wasn't rich by any means, but she says that they're always comfortable. And that she never even had to earn her money. So she didn't have to get like three cents per jurisdiction. Her parents actually just gave her spending money as she wanted it. Oh. Which is what Michelle says.

is what makes it even more scandalous about what she did as a child. Ready for the sin and the scandal? It's a good thing I'm sitting down. I'm assuming there's pants involved.

All through her childhood, actually. So it sounds like this was in her junior high years. And she went to the public swimming school pretty much daily during the summer. one day and she says that to this day she doesn't know why she can't she doesn't she can't figure it out because like I said she's like I had money my parents gave this to me

So she doesn't know why she did it. She stole something. But she walked over to a woman's open purse and took money out of it. Wow. And she proceeded to walk over to the concession stand and stand in line to buy herself a little treat. With the money she just stole. I bet she wasn't wearing a modest swimsuit either. I bet not. That's where she went wrong. See? The connection. It's an entry sin. Exactly. You wear a swimsuit? Fucking thief.

A gateway sin. That's what I was thinking. So the lady who she stole from realized what the fuck just happened. And she came up to Michelle in the snack bar and she grabbed her by the arm. The lady got... the pool manager involved and there was a debate about what they were supposed to do and she says at one point they're like do we call the police i'm like did they really like i don't know like sometimes like i'm like is this part of like playing it up in a book right

But they ultimately decided to call her mom. So her mom comes and gets her and Michelle talks about how the car ride was just terrible. But even through all that, Michelle denied it up and down. Wow. And then even when her father got home, she still denied it. Training her for having a sex pest son. You know what? This is where it went. This is where it started. Deny, deny, deny, deny. Yep.

So she doesn't specify exactly how long it is but she says it was some time which I don't know what some time means but it was some time before she finally ended up confessing to it and of course her parents knew all along. She said that after this she was just like riddled. with guilt and for not only being a thief but also for lying about it for such a long period of time

And she said she was just kind of overcome with feelings of fear of people finding out and knowing that she did this. So she ended up spending... you know like her younger years trying to win people over with kindness and being outgoing and like to just prove that she's not this like thief type person okay so now let's talk about um

high school years so by high school she is now essentially an only child so you're not she's not an only child but she kind of is at this point right correct so she went on to become miss congeniality and a cheerleader Which... we know scandal i mean i feel like there is no shortage of like bringing that up whenever possible like they highlight that in the show whenever yeah i was a cheerleader and like tlc is always like you know i mean i just think that they love

the dichotomy yes yeah so no shortage of highlighting that a former classmate of michelle's i just wanted to say what they what some people had to say about her okay his name was joe So Joe described Michelle as a very pretty, very popular cheerleader who definitely dated a few guys before Jim Bob. Slut. It must have been the voice. Oh, that's whisper. She's like, hi, I'm Michelle. See, she's missing it. She could have done ASMR.

She could have been one of those phone call people. Sex line operators and 900 number. Hi, how are you? Do you want to party? What's your jurisdiction?

it's gonna be you baby i'm your jurisdiction okay and so joe also said that she was always part of that group of cheerleaders and jocks who partied together i want the fucking deets on what partied is right because like i there's like my like when i was in high school like what i thought it was like a party and then when people tell me oh i went to a party i'm like you mean like fucking hanging out now

Do you know if their family was religious at all? We're going to get to that. Okay. A little down though. Oh, it's the next point. Would you like me to just go right to that? Please do. So my next point is religion. See, I'm a podcast professional. I don't know if you know this. You know, it's like we're just like completely insane, too. You know, it's like I left you look at my notes beforehand or something. I didn't. Bye, bye, bye.

So Michelle's family wasn't religious growing up. In December 2020, she was on an episode of Ginger and her husband Jeremy's now defunct podcast. And she said... Quote, and I wrote, when I was 15 years old, I met Christ for the first time in my life. I'd grown up in a very loving home, but my life was empty and void. I was searching for meaning in life.

i know like i think it's just like later on it's so this idea that everything was so bad or like before you i just feel like that's like people with religion like it's a good story to talk about how lost you were like you know oh and then i was found it's like

and then everybody else goes oh oh they must have done all these bad things and then now they're good like it's like she dated two boys and all of a sudden she's like yeah miss me with that shit yeah so and then later on in the interview she heavily refers back to the guilt of being a liar and a thief i don't think in this in the episode i could be wrong but i don't think she necessarily tells that story i don't know but like she talks about just like feelings of like of being a liar

so let's talk about she you know she just said that she first met christ when she was 15 right i mean he just like showed up one day um yeah so let's talk about what happened when she was 15. uh-oh

Michelle's friend Janet Smith, goddammit Janet Smith, Janet Smith was spending the night and they were discussing an end times movie that was popular at the time. Michelle was basically scared shitless. I hope it was Planet of the Apes. Talking about this movie. And she was just telling Janet how she knew if she died right now she would go to hell. For what? Like what the fuck?

For taking a lady's money at the snack bar? For partying too hard. That skirt you're wearing is a cheerleader. Man. But you know, her friend Janet, she was calm. Calm as a cucumber. Raise a pickle if you're a dugger. Janet was calling. And, yeah, Janet just started to share with Michelle, like, her faith and her testimony.

And she invited Michelle to come to church with her the next time church was rolling around. Okay. So Michelle goes to that church service. And of course, what do you know? She hears everything she wants to hear. She heard that she can be forgiven for everything she has ever done. And that God loves her and has a special plan for her life.

So it's like, okay, so the feeling, you know, being able to be forgiven for everything, that's now pandering to her feelings of guilt, right? And hearing that God has this special plan for her. That just is completely going with her feeling empty and searching for meaning. Well, it's like, well, now there's a plan? Sweet. So she just heard everything she needed to hear.

So then the pastor invites anyone who wants to give their life to Jesus to come forward. Michelle jumps up out of her seat. She said she didn't even really know what that meant or what she was doing exactly. But she jumps up out of her seat. And she runs over there and she was the first to be there. And she gave her life to Christ. She was saved. And the rest is history as far as that goes.

And then years later, she gave her life to TLC. Yep. So it was one month after this whole sleepover and giving her life to... to Christ thing. It was one month later when Jim Bob showed up with his friend Fred at her house. And made no impression whatsoever. Yeah. And then it's a year later before they actually, you know, like go on a date and stuff like that. Because once again, he made no impression whatsoever.

So now you can kind of line these two up that they are a month apart from each other. So I want to... That was a bad month for Michelle. Yeah, right? Her whole life, she had no idea. This is where it all started, the trajectory, you know. So now let's give a few little bonus tidbits, okay? Okay.

So we talked about how they're discussing this movie, right? So Michelle has never specifically named the movie, which number one, I find is interesting for, okay. If this was the thing that scared you enough. i'd like what if okay if your whole we know that they're their whole lot in life their whole meaning is to try to like bring others to christ right correct if this is what did it for you

why wouldn't she just say the fucking movie? You know? So I think that's interesting that she won't just say it. I think the story's made up. But also, is it because it's too secular of a movie? You know, there's just a lot of things. I don't want to promote. Any of that? Yeah, because it's not an IBLP production. So she never specifically... Now I'm just thinking of all these movies and watching a young Michelle clutch her pearls. I'm Planet of the Apes.

i'm voting planet of the apes well okay so of course speculation she's never named it we don't know for sure but it is widely thought to be a thief in the night okay a thief in the night came out in 1972 but it was heavily circulated amongst evangelical groups and especially youth groups because what do you want to do to a kid scare the fucking shit out of them of course

get them on your side by scaring the fucking piss out of them yeah and it's actually um sort of like oh actually how about i give you a little description of it so when i went online the actual like written description is It's the story of Patty, a modern young woman caught up in living for the present with little concern for the future. As dramatic, earth-shattering events begin to unfold around her,

Patty realizes she is living in the end times spoken of in the biblical prophecy. Okay. Okay, so I'm going to give you a little more of a rundown of what actually happens in the movie. Okay. So Patty wakes up one morning to a report on the radio that millions of people, including her own husband, are missing. And apparently as the movie goes on, there are like flashbacks.

to parts of her life so there's like her and like comparing three lives okay her friend that was like very devout accepted christ blah blah blah then there's um patty who like Thinks she's accepted Christ but isn't really living life as a Christian, I think. And then I think there's her friend who's off doing whatever the fuck ever, right? And so there's these flashbacks and then in this there's...

like a whole mark of the beast thing like now because of all of the millions of people being gone something about like the the government or whatever i could be describing this a little bit wrong but you get the idea okay the government like to like buy and sell stuff you have to get this

mark or whatever so right of course biblically they're calling this like the mark of the beast yeah and it's her patty being like well she she doesn't know she fully accepts christ but she also doesn't want the mark of the beast And they end up capturing her and she breaks away. And then when she does break away, she ends up escaping. After she escapes, she like falls to her death in the escape or something.

Then she wakes up, realizes it was all a dream. So, of course, she's like, whew, right? Patty's all relieved. But then she hears the exact same radio report about millions of people being missing. Again, realizes her husband is missing. And then at this point, she realizes the rapture has actually occurred and she has been left behind. Dun, dun, dun. Oh, man.

powerful powerful nothing like a good scare tactic to you know try to convert people right so it's funny because when i was reading online people were saying that like This movie legitimately scared the shit out of them. So now I have to watch it. This would be a good mystery science theater type watch through where we kind of just talk shit over the top of it. So now I have to watch it. But...

it's actually i i cracked up because one comment online specifically mentioned about how like they're like my parents would not let me watch disney movies because of witchcraft which took me back to episode four with slutty sea witch it's like you can't watch disney because that's bad and that's witchcraft and they're like but

parents sat us down very young and made us watch this movie and they're like this scared the shit out of me more than any fucking disney movie ever because yeah so um for two reasons Number one, because I guess the idea behind it is that this girl thought she was saved and then isn't. So it's driving people who are already religious going like, what if what I think I'm doing isn't enough?

correct so then they're like even more scared because like they're like i thought i was a good person like you know it's a whole another control tactic yep scare them even more and then i guess just for the times like being in the 70s i guess it was just like When I read online, it was almost described as being a pivotal sort of, I don't know how to describe it, but just like in the Christian community, it was the first time that they took like horror.

and like rock music and you know like things like that and put it into a christian thing so they're like it was to appeal to the masses because it's this horror type thing but then make it religious so it's this brand new thing watching a religious movie so yeah so it's just so funny that you don't want them seeing all these worldly things and like whatever but then if it's a movie that scares the shit out of you to join our side it's okay of course

So, yeah, a lot of people talk about they're like, yeah, I just remember this movie completely scaring me out of a kid because even just for the horror type aspect of it. Yeah. And you I'm reading kind of a page about it, too. The part that it says is, the film has been described as traumatic for children who made up a significant part of its original audience and criticized for using scare tactics to produce religious conversations. Yep.

I bet. I bet. Yep. and are left behind a quarter century later i was thinking about this because when i was the last time i was involved in church stuff like sophomore ish year of high school fred is freshman and sophomore um

the left behind books were big. That was when those were coming out. And I remember the adults in my... catholic church were all pumped because they were like look it's new like it's in the zeitgeist like people know about it whether they're religious or not well i just feel like the religious community gets pumped any fucking time that something kind of makes it semi-mainstream like passion of the

christ remember when passion of the christ came out and it was like look at this and like they just get pumped anytime that they can and what was the passion of the christ it was rated something that i would it was rated r wasn't it because of the violence yeah

any other time my dad would not let me see a rated r movie of course but when it's passion of the christ it's fine and i'm like so i'm like oh because you think that this is a real story like i don't know it's just it's funny to me that the tactics of like it would be that's bad any other time but yeah it's okay now like oh they don't like you know josiah said that there's really nothing to it when it comes to rock music but in this movie that michelle watched is like they used yeah

OK, so one last little tidbit. Obviously, the purpose of this was just to point out, give you like a little picture into Michelle's life pre Lego hair. But I just wanted to touch on one thing that happened in her life.

post lego but i do feel like it has just like you know worth talking about michelle uh pl oh so michelle's mother passed away in 1991 at the age of 64 when Michelle was just 24 years old and at that point Michelle had three kids so she had Josh and the twins and I just kind of wanted to emphasize it because I I think it's very interesting that both her parents lost

their lost parents young and while 24 is not obviously as young it's still young considering like she didn't get to have her mother there as she was like raising her children and stuff correct but Not that it means anything, but I thought it was funny. So her dad lost his dad at age four. Her mom lost her mom at age 14. Michelle lost her mom at age 24.

oh wow isn't that weird like but like 10 years apart four plus 10 plus 10 i don't know just this one thing that as i was going through everything i was like oh that's kind of funny so let's just go i'm gonna end it with just like my little takeaway My opinion. So obviously going forward, this is my opinion. Take all of that with a heavy dose of salt if you'd like. A few more than one grain.

So it doesn't sound to me like Michelle by any means had an unhappy childhood. But I really can't help but feel like being the last born, unplanned, coming in at the... at the end of a already well-established fully grown family like i feel like in some way that has to kind of play into michelle's overall situation right it's like clearly She was an accident and her parents had been parenting for fucking 20 years. They were done parenting. Yeah. And. You know. I read online someone described.

being in the same type of situation, being the youngest with much older family members. And I thought the way they described it was a really interesting take. They said it feels like arriving last to a party where everyone else is starting to leave.

and i'm like but yeah i can i could see how this could easily easily lead to her having that feeling of wanting to belong somewhere yeah like maybe maybe if she wasn't even unhappy but just like this whole other thing happened in front of you and like i felt like that and like

small way now i had a sister three years above me so i i'm not trying to compare it to being the exact same and like i was completely on my own but like i remember being little and all my sisters being off at school and my mom fucking sleeping

like and i just like coloring by myself and i'd go wake up my mom and i'd show her the picture i colored and i'd go back and do my thing and it's like there is this sort of feeling of like you're like you're kind of feel a little bit like an afterthought yeah you know like even if it's not on purpose like but you're like you're just kind of like this this little this little thing that's hanging out here you know right um and then when you add in

Her intense feelings of guilt that she clearly had over one fucking instance. And then finally that movie. playing it into i just feel like it was like boom like this like recipe of like yeah i need belonging i have intense guilt boom yeah well i just keep thinking of you know i don't think her life was perfect by any means like nobody's life is perfect growing up but because of the way that they

indoctrinate you to come in it's that mindset of wasn't your life so much worse before this no that's so okay the fact that you said that is perfect because as i was reading things people were like oh yeah trauma leads to people being it was just kind of the conversation of converts are usually end up being more like gung-ho than people who are raised in it yeah because it's like they found this thing and they're gonna just go hard at it right yeah and it was people

like talking about their like oh yeah trauma does that and then people are like it doesn't even matter if you had trauma because they will convince you of something being missing or something being wrong or something you know and that's why when you see like rehab That's why there's a lot of rehab that has so much religious background to it. Because it gives you...

essentially you were devoting your life to a substance or an action or whatever it is that you're going to rehab for. And it's like, you need to substitute that with something else. So it's easy for you to take that devotion, even though it was negative.

and put it towards a religion when in reality why don't you just try to subtract the thing like why does it have to be a swap why can't you just try to get down to why i started doing this one thing but doesn't mean i have to go balls it deep into this other thing you know like and that's i listened to a podcast that's been around forever that somebody's kind of like in you know the public sphere

Kind of. And that was his big thing was he's been clean for like 15 years. And he's like, that's the one thing is it took me four different. programs until I found one that was not religious based. Yeah. And he's like, I didn't want that. I didn't feel like I needed that. I didn't need to.

devote my life to something because you just wanted to not drink anymore yeah you were you were drinking because you didn't have god in your life exactly he wasn't at the center of your life yeah yeah and it's like that's that's not always the fucking thing like yeah and you see that in prison oh yeah like everybody comes like all like not everybody but like they they push that hard in prison too because it's like oh you made you made

these decisions because you didn't have god in your life and once again that idea of like you can be absolved of your sins it'll be all good if you join our team yes it's so attractive to them because when they do feel guilt it's like guilt it's like People feel guilt, whether, you know, Michelle with one fucking thing or people in prison for whatever the hell happened to them.

And it could have happened. You know, people make decisions for a variety of reasons. There's trauma. There's bad, just bad decisions. There's, you know, like, you know, there's a variety of reasons. But if they can convince you that if they can play off your guilt and tell you that, oh, we've got the answer to it. Right. That's all gone if you just do this. And that's when you get people like Michelle running down the fucking aisle to be first in line. Yeah. It's predatory. Yeah.

that's why i said like oh you know she heard and she even said like it's like the pastor was talking to me i'm like of course you felt that way because that's the point yeah

That's the fucking point. They want you to feel like they are talking to you directly. And when I say this, I want people to understand that I'm not saying you can't ever come out of something with a good takeaway. Like, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying you can't hear things from other people and be like, oh, that was great. Like, I really learned from that or that really spoke to me. But in these types of situations.

We can't deny that there are times where it's like that is purposely a tactic to try to bring person because they know that's going to stir something in more than one person and make them feel like, oh my God, that's me. I feel like I rambled. Did that make sense? It did make sense. To kind of like button up that, I think I was having a debate with somebody at work about dramatic acting and comedic acting.

And one of the things that I, the point I was trying to make was that being a dramatic actor and kind of pulling at somebody's heartstrings when you're doing something dramatic. is easier than trying to be funny because being funny is so subjective and it has to do with so many factors if i'm in a there's a point to this i promise um

If I'm in a dramatic movie and I have a scene with my father and it's something about losing my father, everybody can relate. Whether you had a relationship with your father because maybe you wished you had one. Or if you did have a relationship with your father and he died. or you know there's so many things where like that can pull on heartstrings of all of these different groups of people regardless of whether they relate or not yeah and

When you do comedy, it's the opposite. Like if it's not funny, it's really not funny. You know what I mean? So it's that same idea. If you present a message in that way, it's kind of easy to pull.

For people to find something in that that relates to them. Boom. Yep. Yep. So to me, just the overall theme, again, guilt. It takes me back to when we talked about Ja'Kaleb. Yeah. How they felt such... intense guilt over what they thought was them ending a life with because of their lack of knowledge or whatever and what did that lead to where they're at now you know and what michelle feeling this intense

guilt what did that lead to her you know her first getting into like religion or whatever yeah so it's like guilt is like an overall very like a major factor it's a powerful and how old yeah it's yeah because it it kind of what i said before back in the jacaleb episode guilt makes you vulnerable and in my opinion vulnerability makes it easy makes you more susceptible to extremism yeah yeah

Brene Brown talks about shame. Brene Brown's awesome. I remember saying... ted talks of hers from years ago before she was in big yeah and one of her first one was on shame and she's like shame is the feeling that it's not that you've done something wrong in that moment. Shame is the fact that you've done something wrong and it makes you unlovable.

And that you'll never be lovable again. Which is like Michelle saying how then she tried to counter, you know, then she was like trying to be likable, trying to be a friend to everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't want people to know what you did because it... You're afraid of them not being able to think positively about you. You're describing exactly what she was saying. Yeah. And once again, we've seen this when it comes to the baby stomach.

the the pregnant stomach during her uh ultrasound with all the kids there there's just this level of like you should never ever show any of that like don't show anybody they're not gonna they're all going to laugh at you yeah it's just everything is so built on guilt and shame and it's

sad and like so even just as you're saying it right now i'm like okay now i'm taking another takeaway from it it's getting through life accepting things that you're not proud of without taking it to a place of like ruling everything like you know So, yeah. Interesting. And it's hard, and I feel like those conversations open up if you can open enough to admit the things that you're shameful about.

it you grow from there like just from there because it doesn't own you anymore and being willing to just talk about it and not look for like oh well with god it's just forget like i don't care i don't care believe in god believe in like you know um

confessing to your sins or whatever whatever word i'm looking for right now like i don't care but but maybe that's not the end all be all maybe you also within yourself need to come to terms with it and not just be like oh well god forgave me you know like It's not just a washing of your hands.

It's an understanding why you made that decision, understanding how it affected other people, and then moving forward and changing your behavior so you don't do it again. And even if Michelle says to this day she doesn't know why, then it may be a CX accepting, I don't know why. but i'm not gonna do that again like like but she couldn't look at it like that and instead she was just like way like it weighed so heavily on her yeah so

sometimes we just do stupid shit and even if we don't know why we didn't then move on you didn't kill anybody yeah you took some money out of a lady's purse for nachos like yeah and we speak about that at work where

You have employees that you kind of coach and counsel, and then they make the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. And one of my... other directors and i our favorite thing recently has been i don't want empty apologies i want modified behavior and so that's been kind of our thing is like are you doing this because you really want to change your behavior and you believe that

that's not a direction you want to go or are you doing it because you're afraid of going to hell well yeah and it sounds like she was largely driven by the fear of going to hell yeah and it's like like i mentioned earlier in this episode I don't know what's happening afterwards and I actually really don't care. Yeah. Which I feel, I remember saying that one time. I literally remember at one of my old jobs saying that to someone. They were.

they could not wrap their mind around me they're like what do you mean you don't care and i'm like i don't care it doesn't drive me every day i don't do good Or bad every day because of a fear of where I'm going. Correct. Or trying to get somewhere better. Correct. I just try to do the best I can every fucking day. Yeah. I remember having that exact same conversation with my father. And it was the same thing. I didn't.

It's funny thinking of me as kind of a little shithead where I was just trying to counteract what my dad said. But thinking about it, I was making some salient points. And the points I was making was none of us know if that's where we go. Yeah. So why am I going to spend so much mental bandwidth worrying as opposed to focusing on trying to be a good person now? Because then you're caught up.

Oh, yeah. Because if I die and I feel like I treated people well and protected the people around me, it doesn't matter whether I go to this fancy place or not. That's all I can control. I just don't give it.

And so it's so funny that the description of the movie is Patty, a modern woman focused on today and not about the future. She sounds worldly. Well, that's fucking me. I'm a fucking Patty, okay? Because I'm not focused on... I'm focused on... making some sort of like if I die I just want people to be like oh she in some way was a good person that's it that's all I fucking care about

yeah and i feel like for the most part i can die tomorrow and people aren't gonna be like god she was a fucking piece of trash that's all i care about yeah so it's so funny to me that like for that to be the focus that's what eats away at people yeah and um

I'm the same way. Probably about a month ago, I had a real, real rough time with legacy. And it's not, I want people to remember the things that I did and like my accomplishments. So grandiose. Like, oh, he did all that. Yeah. Yeah. And what it was is we had somebody that left our an employee that abandoned their job. And like nobody talked to them at all. And I kept thinking about.

we don't know anything about this person and where they went and all we have is the feelings that they left us with like i want to if i died tomorrow once again like you were saying i want people to have a positive idea of how i made them feel yeah and it doesn't have to be a big thing like this huge gigantic accomplishment but hey and it's not like i like being around them or you know yeah exactly and i don't think it has to do with like pleasing people it's not about

like okay cool i i was a doormat and they walked all over me because then they'll think positively of me no i feel like if i died tomorrow i have employees that i've had to kick in the ass and i've had to write up and i've had to do these things that are negative but because it's also paired with being a level of support for them and being a cheerleader for them when i've had to and

I feel like even though I've done negative things to them in that arena, it's going to leave them with a positive legacy. Yeah. And I think that on the flip side... There's the Anna and the Michelles and everybody that wrote those letters that are like, look at this physical thing Josh did, giving money, doing this physical thing. But...

And so they're so focused on that, but it's like, what did he really actually leave behind in the world? Like he did this other like terrible thing. So it's like, it has to be about the good you're doing, not, and it doesn't have to be big or super specific. I feel like it's.

just your overall being you know agree so yeah i like that these episodes are getting deeper i know and it's like well now i feel like i used to be like okay it was episode recap and then deep dive now it seems to be three segments episode deep dive uh unpack and break down yeah break down yeah pretty much jesus christ christ on a crackers i think these have been good though yeah so anyways

i am not uh i have a lot of guilt in my life over little things but thank god i am not driven by deep-seated guilt that's gonna you know it doesn't like drive me into like this like like I'm the kid that I think about like I'm like oh my god I remember when I was at that sleepover and that one girl stole candy out of the Brock's bulk candy bin and I didn't even steal it and I was like oh my god she's the one I still think about that every once in a while but it's not like you know yeah

See, and I feel like I'm a little bit of the opposite. I feel like a lot of my life is driven by guilt, whether it's something that I did myself, a way that... just a way that I feel about things. I feel guilty about shit that I can't control in other people's lives. Like I just feel bad if I've remotely contributed to something involved there.

But it doesn't run my life. Me too. I still think about times in grade school where kids were mean to other kids that I didn't say something. You didn't do something. They weren't beating him up, but they were... being not nice and i'm like fuck i should have said something i'm like 32 year old whitney would stick up the fuck for that kid like you know but yeah so those are things that to this day i still think about but i don't think i'm

a piece of shit for it yeah yeah all right i guess we should end it at some point this is probably a long one i don't know where we're at but it's probably a long one yeah it's a long one it's been a good one okay so that's a little bit about michelle ruwerk Duggar. And Whitney Solgato. And Tim. So as usual, we got the... gmail digging up the duggars at gmail email account then we have digging up the duggars pod that is our instagram handle i'm hearing from you guys

People, again, we really appreciate your, if you're listening at this point, I think you might like it. So maybe leave us a positive review. If you're hate listening at episode 14, what are you still doing here?

but yeah we appreciate your reviews because like we said before it moves us up people i still have this idea like okay everybody that's gonna find us has found us right nope they're still finding us yeah like just this week we have a we have a friend from hell hell norway not the tater tot mansion as you might think correct um our friend from hell norway just joined us this week i mean so people are still getting in on it so yeah

Shout out to Sassy Sprinkles on Instagram, fellow Whovian. What up, girl? Tim likes to be able to talk to someone about it. dr who so he appreciates you oh yeah and i figured the venn diagram of listeners would cross over at some point yeah somebody's gonna get a like a kick out of the futurama reference today you know what i mean so um yeah i i love talking to people i think it's really cool that we have

uh what was it there was somebody from canada that said they were like out in the wilderness yeah super awesome we love to hear from you guys it's been a lot of fun so and if we don't get back to you right away it's just we we do get back to you at some point it's just trying to get to it in the day and whatever so you might see us on red we won't leave you on red we will eventually answer you correct we appreciate you guys being here and we'll see you again next week have a good week