Episode 11 - In-dih-vidg-ee-al-ih-tee

Mother is believing. At least I have a husband, you know. Does anybody here believe it? We are from Arkansas, no? episode 11 this makes it the jeremiah episode still don't know which one that is yeah i mean i i think that tim sees a new kid every time he watches For real, like the intro they go through and they introduce all of them. There's always one where I'm like, there was a Jeremy? Later. Later. There really is a Jeremy later. Anyways, so this is episode 11.

The episode that we watched is called Bates versus Duggar Smackdown. Smackdown. And so as you can guess, it's just a continuation of the two week Bates visit in Arkansas. So the episode kind of just starts off with Jim Bob announcing to both the families that he thought it would be fun if they shot at each other. So they're going to go play. He talks about going to play paintball.

Oh, and actually just really quick. This is kind of like a not much to it episode. So we might go through it kind of fast. Yeah. I say that now and then before you know, it'll be 36 minutes in. We always say, oh, it'll be a fast one. But anyways. They did say it's been seven years since they actually hung out not at conference. Which is funny because they didn't really mention that in the first one. So I did get...

the idea that they were trying to be like oh we know each other so well but now they're like yeah we haven't seen half these kids so that's much more clear in this second episode yeah they were saying that like the older kids were the age of the younger kids the last time they saw them yeah And then at one point, Lego hair.

does the math with how many people they have between the two families. And it was just this very socially painful thing of him being like, we got 16 kids and they got this many kids. And if you do the math, there's that many kids. I was like, thanks. Thank you for that five minute math TED talk. Yeah. Well, you know, they're always looking for opportunities to train the children. Can't pass up opportunity to talk about math. Math. Math. Math.

Okay, so they're getting ready to go paintballing. So they're getting the kids dressed in like thick layers so that they don't bruise as badly. And they still get bruised pretty badly. I felt like this was the first episode where I felt seen. Why is that? because they're getting ready they're talking about how you have to put on like a couple layers of clothes so it doesn't give you like a giant welt and one of the lost boys comes out with the giant jack and goes it's a nice chubby one

And I felt like I was seen. Thank you, Josephus, or whatever your name is. He's talking kindly of you. Exactly. Maybe I should learn his name.

So when they get to the paintball place, the facility, they're filling out all the waivers and everything. So obviously it's a giant stack for each dad. The moms are nowhere to be seen. This is a dad activity. So they're filling out these giant stacks of forms. And Gil starts to tell a story about how one time when they were in Georgia, for whatever reason, some guy stopped him and offered him $100.

If he could name the birthdays of all the kids that he had. Now, the part that he leaves out, I'm like, what point in this sea of children was this? Was this when he only had six? Like, I don't know. Like, he doesn't specify how long ago this was. Because there's a big difference between four. 10 and 16 you know agree but he says that he was able to name all their birthdays and so he got the hundred bucks and surprising to fucking nobody jim bob follows it up saying

End quote. I'm afraid I wouldn't get the $100. No. And we know. We know, Jim Bob. We know. Not at all. Sidestep for a slight second. Hope you don't mind. Takes me back to my father. Okay. Trash. but um he has four kids i'm the youngest of four girls only four and i remember one time asking him like dad when's my birthday And he was like, um, December. And I'm like, oh, that's the month. There's more.

i'm like you don't even have to name the year give me the birth date and he says the 17th and i'm like nope sister right above me is june 17th then he goes december 21st and i'm like that's the oldest sister's wedding anniversary he couldn't name my birthday so at this point i saw myself while i was watching this like for a split second being like good for you gil but then i'm like wait wait a fucking minute the bar is set in hell like yeah that is not that

like that's not something really that commendable but here i was for a split i mean good job just because my dad is trash so anyways just a funny little thing that i could relate that to that i'm like that's really not saying much i shouldn't be impressed it's kind of one of you digging stuff out of yourself of like why are we giving people

like kudos for bare bones basic bullshit you know exactly so just kind of a like a moment within myself i was like huh you know interesting i also feel like every kid goes through that mode where you're like i'm gonna test my parents Because I definitely remember that period where I was the annoying kid asking my dad 27 questions just to see if I could get one on him. You know what I mean? Could your dad name your birthday?

Yes. Oh, good. I was also an only child. So if you couldn't, that would be real bad. Yeah. All right. So after they fill out all the waivers, they start paintballing and go figure the girls are still wearing skirts.

what when they were getting ready they showed them all clustering kind of in their like starting area yeah and one of the the blue because they both had different jerseys on the blues were the Duggars yeah so one of the Duggar girls is holding her paintball gun and then she looks at her brother and goes say hello to my little friend i didn't catch this

So that's a Scarface reference. Yeah. So there's no chance in hell that those kids understand a Scarface reference. No way. Because number one, they don't watch enough TV. And then number two, they wouldn't be watching damn Scarface. Yeah, I didn't even catch that. So that was...

obviously like the cameraman or the producers being like hey you know what'd be funny maybe you should say or they've heard it randomly somewhere and still just have no idea what it actually equates to like because there's another one later on in the skydiving segment where uh lego hair is looking up at whoever's skydiving with it goes look it's a bird it's a plane it's it's cousin amy

And I'm like, none of your kids are going to get a Superman reference because you don't let them watch media. Yeah, right. Lost on them. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. No, so you're good. But I digest. I digest. But I digest.

So, yeah, so the girl's still wearing paintballs. I really didn't, I didn't really write down them because it's really not that interesting. You watch them paintball. There's a lot of shaky action shots. Yeah, they kind of like did the whole like make it go a little bit gray, a little bit slow mode while they're like falling down. But really, it's very boring. One of the funny things is one of the Bates girls in the middle.

age-wise, was like, yeah, I think we're losing this one. There's just too many Duggar boys peeking around the houses. It was Aaron, yeah. You're not wrong, sister. There is too many Duggar boys. Yep, yep. But that's all I kind of, I kind of moved on from that. There was really not a whole lot going on with paintballing. Do you have anything else to add? No, there was just like a tug of war scene. They showed them like tug of waring outside the house.

Yeah, and Jim Bob says like twice that he'd think they outweighed them. It's because they won because the Duggars won because they outweighed him. And I'm like, is that a short joke on Gil? Or are you calling people in your family fat? I don't know. Weird flex, bro. I know. I was like, what are we getting at here?

So then Kelly Bates and the girls are just kind of reciting that same... like scripted bullshit about courtship same as always and you know Aaron Bates again the same one that talks about all the little Duggar boys she says that it's you know it's there so you're not playing around and you're having a purpose

And then it cuts to a scene of Jim, Bob, and Michelle sitting on the couch with Gil and Kelly. And we find out that Gil was 22 and Kelly was 21 when they got married. And then Lego Hair says, oh, that's old. because he was 19 and Michelle was 17. So it's funny how to them they're like, damn, you guys are old.

And then Amy, she says that the families have the same beliefs and values and that they, quote, they all have the same kind of personality, which I thought was funny because think of all the times that they were like. we're individuals like you know oh yeah there's a talking head later on oh yeah we'll get to that which is great but i just wanted to like you know really emphasize how much they talk about things like that

So it's funny that Amy's like, no, you're really all kind of the same. There was a bunch of talking heads during this part, and they were talking about... Lego Hair says, it's important for our children to have friends outside of our family, but ones that reinforce their values. And he was like, you know, because we don't want friends that are trying to influence them or get them into things that they shouldn't be into.

And I think it goes back to what we saw in the last episode of that. Like fear is the motivator for a lot of this. It's like don't have friends that aren't like you because that's scary. I know I've mentioned on here before, but it's just like my dad telling me that like. would every once in a while throw in that like my friends were worldly so it's like that what was the uh

You've told a lot of stories about having a Matchbox 20 poster. Oh, yeah. What did your dad say about that? We had a Matchbox 20. Okay, think of Rob Thomas, you guys. Rob Thomas. It's not like he's fucking Alice Cooper or something. No, he's very family friendly. Rob Thomas.

And it was on the back of our door that my sister Kinsey put there to basically try to avoid my dad looking as much as possible because you knew this was coming. And I'm going to... Oh, my God. It's going to go in the visuals this week. I'm going to find the poster. The exact poster. But my dad was like, he looked...

like he's on drugs and like rob thomas are you kidding he looks like he sells pharmaceuticals illegally right and he must have a car with rims and a custom sound system too christ almighty god Anyways, those worldly things like Rob Thomas. One of the Bates, going back to it, one of the Bates girls did say that dating should only be to get a spouse. Yes. Well, not dating, courting.

They don't date. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. But it's just interesting that that's your end goal. That's the only thing. It's not to... Get to know a person. It's...

It's not to learn about yourself, figure out what you like, figure out what you don't like. I have a close friend that listens to the podcast. Thank you. But she was... mentioning about how you said how mormons kind of push their kids to date like yeah like go out like learn what you like learn what you don't like figure out you know before you do choose to settle down you know even though it's not you know physical

They have all the same purity standards, but they actually speak, like they promote multiple people and not having a boyfriend and a girlfriend. Right. So I just, she brought that up and she remembers thinking the same thing where she met somebody who was kind of a little bit more fundamental than they are. And she was like, oh man, really? That seems really repressed. I'm like, it's funny that the Mormon girl's like, hmm, really repressed. I know, it's really funny.

that we're looking like my childhood looks fucking liberal in comparison which is why you're hippie dippy parents oh anyways let me find where we're at i lost track

Okay, so then a producer asks Kelly what she would say to people who say that they shelter her kids. She looked so defensive. I wrote this so we could get it word for word. And what caught me is that she's so cool. quickly replied i'm like either this was rehearsed or she has had this canned answer ready to go because you know that they probably do feel defensive of people asking these things so i'm like she was so quick on it there was no like look up

There was no, I'm thinking like she rattled this shit off quickly and with like purpose. Oh yeah. And right before she was going to answer, like when the.

when the camera guy or the producer was finishing the question, I wrote, she looked so defensive and smug where she was like, I have an answer. She was fucking ready. Yeah. So she said, I would say it's wise to shelter a young plant, to put it in a safe place until its root system is healthy and hardy enough to survive the winter and the cold and harsh weather.

I would say there's a time for shelter and there's a time for putting it outside and letting it bloom and blossom. But I think you can do that too early. Yep. Yeah, you can tell that she's had that one in the chamber for a long time. Then it cuts to Amy talking about them all dressing the same. And she says that she prefers, you know, kids having their own personality and dressing how they want to dress. And then it goes immediately to Jessa.

saying um the baits like more of the uh and she has like she like scrunches her face and she's like western type stuff and we're like a face scrunch modest modern question mark like you know and it's like sure jessa sure it's like a sure jan mower it's like yeah modest modern but it totally reminds me of like

my my teenager days in church when they were really trying to make the slogan like modest is hottest like a like a thing like it was i felt like it was in mean girls where it's like with fetch it's like stop making it trying to happen it's never gonna happen like they were really pushing like modest is hottest but you just know jessa is fucking loving this right now because the baits are making them look like hip and cool so she's like thank god they came to visit because

Comparatively, they do look modern. For her, she's like, fuck yes, we look cool next to these people. I thought the long denim dresses made them look like Little House on the Prairie. The bait's a really little house. Yeah, so Jess is eating this shit up. She's like... Wasn't that that Jewish rapper, Modest Modern? Oh, that was Modest Yahoo. Never mind. Sorry. Not the same.

So then it goes to this talking head about Michelle. Come to find out Tim and I both wrote it down word for word. So I'm going to let Tim take this one. Oh, how nice of you. I'm a very generous person. In a talking head, she says, quote, you hear things about individuality. Real quick. I wrote down phonetically how she says it. She does not say individuality.

Did you catch how she says it? No. I have to read it phonetically. Hang on. Maybe you should read it. Individuality. Individuality. So I wrote individuality. Oh, my God. That dining room, that, you know, education is doing real good. So she says, you hear things about individuality and then you go out into public. And the thing I... If I'm going to pause, I know this is disjointed. This entire time, she's looking up.

and to the side and i remember watching a thing during the amber herd trials where they were like evaluating body language and different things and when people lie a lot of times they look up and to the side because they're trying to think of what they're going to say next so we've talked about like hypotheticals like they use a lot of be afraid of this hypothetical situation even though they've never been through that

Like that's never happened to you, but you're afraid. But it will happen. Correct. So that's what I thought about this because I'm like, this situation has never happened, Michelle. Okay. There we go. You hear things about individuality, but then you go out into public and you see this herd of kids all dressed in the same color of shirts or all in black, you know.

And their hair is all the same and they're wearing the same nose and earrings and belly rings. And you're thinking, hmm, a lot of individuality out there. Oh, yes. She says it so smugly. Oh, yeah. And it's all like. And she, like, shakes. She bobs her head. Like, I was so, like, triggered, like, disgusted. Oh, yeah. Because it was, like, this bob. And it was, like, hmm, a lot of individuality there. And I'm like, this didn't.

Stupid bitch. Yeah. Talking number one about a herd of kids. You got your own fucking herd. Number two, all your kids wear the same shit. And you know that the situation's never happened. Yes. You know she's never gone in public and looked at the other people's dress and noticed their jewelry and their hair. Like, that's never happened. But even if it did.

And these kids are like that, and she's saying that they look like the rest of their friends. At least they're choosing to look like your friends. You're forcing your kids to all look the fucking same in their fucking Target outfits. Like...

they mirror each other so you have a problem with it because you say that they're dressing like their friends but you're also forcing the same fucking herd of kids at home to do the same thing but to your standards yeah what's the difference yeah there's not as much individuality in your family as you like to

think that there is yeah and that's why they get so uppity about it remember all the questions in the early specials i really can't stand when they say we don't have individual you know we don't have our own well you're getting mad because you know it's true yeah

That's why you're so triggered by this. Yeah. It's easier to get mad than to be like, hmm, maybe there is a little nugget of truth in there. And then she ends it with like a laugh and she says, I'm thinking it's so funny. Yeah. God, Michelle.

so smug okay so then the next thing we actually it's the next day or something and now they're going skydiving And the guy is going over the risks and they're signing their little waivers and stuff. He was dressed so inappropriately. Oh, no, you're talking about the guy that helped them. I'm talking about the guy that's helping with paperwork.

so amy asks him if she has to go up in the if she goes up in the plane like does she have to come down meaning like can she change her mind like does she have to jump can she go up in there and then decide no and then just come down with the plane and gill says When you say I do, that's the way we view marriage around here. You just jump. You're committed to the end of the road. And it's like, yeah, we know Gil.

we've seen that that's you guys just don't know somebody you marry them and then you're in it for the long haul like anna and they're fucking going to prison and you're still gonna stand whether your husband's a pedophile or not yep so it's like yeah we know gil we know Now I guess you can talk about the inappropriately dressed man if you'd like.

So the guy that's kind of walking through them physically, what they're going to be doing, he's talking about putting your thumbs into the harness in chicken wing position is the most safe. um i just thought he was dressed inappropriately because he was wearing shorts and a tank top and his nipples would show because there's one of those brutal uh over like workout like gym tank top like it would move the wrong way and there'd be a nip slip and that was defrauding

I was going to say, what was the Bates thing? He's creating desires before they should or whatever? That's the definition of defrauding. It's like stirring up desires that cannot be righteously satisfied. I still don't know what the... definition of that i use it in a sentence every day and it's not right yeah yeah i'll look at something i found in the kitchen and be like hmm this is oddly defrauding and then i'll look at whitney to see if she gives me a nod nope nope

So this is actually the first appearance of Deanna, who is the sister of Jim Bob, mother of Amy. And she says that Amy gets her craziness from her dad, although he wouldn't jump out of a plane unless someone was giving him a million dollars. And then Amy is getting ready to jump first.

And I just want to say real quick, I'm sorry to side tangent for a split second. I feel like every time I watch an episode, I pick up something different about Amy that takes me back. So last episode, it was like her headband and her clothes. This time it was her tan. And I'm like, this was 2008. This was like, we were all hitting those beds, myself included.

Amy looks like you can just see like a bed tan versus like a like a natural one, you know, like Amy looks like she may have even hit up like the tingle lotion. Like you can just kind of tell by looking at her. And yeah, just take me back. Like this back and then is when I was going to like Jamaica me tan. That was my spot. Jamaica me tan. Jamaica me tan because they let me tan without a waiver from a parent before I was 18.

so that's why I hit up Jamaica I really hope they're not still there because you might have just called them out they don't they don't exist anymore and then after that I switched to tangible tanning because they were a little closer and now I was 18 I could you know I didn't have to skirt around but yeah

So it just really takes me back to those tanning days, man. Because now people do more spray tans. Right. But people didn't care about melanoma, I guess, as much back then. We were all just frying ourselves. Yep. And putting stickers on ourselves. And you just had a really fat palm tree because you couldn't place it the exact same way every time. But yeah, I was like, I could tell. Cousin Femi hits the beds. Cousin Femi hits those beds. How defrauding.

oh wait no that's still not the right not not quite no no maybe when she's in the bed and like naked so that could kind of work there you go there you go so then amy jumps and she's just kind of amy very amy i don't know just kind of

Over the top, a little, you know, compared to them, she's a lot, I guess. Super attention-y. Yeah. So Amy jumps. She's Amy. She lives. Then the younger kids get taken up in the small plane so they can, like... you know see some sights and they get to steer and then so there's only five of them that jumped jumped total but they only actually show amy and jim bob correct so then jim bob is getting nervous to jump

And Amy starts, like, giving him shit. Yeah. And she says that, you know, you told me to face my fears. What happened? Are you not going to face your fears? And then she follows it up with. I thought you were a role model in my life. And you can tell. You said a mouthful there, sister. Just wait. Oh, yeah. And you can tell in.

Lego hair's facial expression that he does not like when people razz him. Even if it's deprecating humor, there's a way to do it where it's not... um like offensive just like most of our relationship is built off of roasting each other oh yeah that's our entire we always say that like we're dan and roseanne like the original roseanne show tim and i are dan and roseanne we're we

Largely based on roasting each other every day. Yeah. But you can tell that he is not about that. Nope. Nope. He does not appreciate it. That was where the Superman reference came from that I talked about before. When she was coming down, he was like, it's a bird, it's a plane. And they're like, okay, cool. The last thing from the skydiving thing. uh for me was right before they went when they were showing um nip slip instructor guy oh yeah um

He was explaining to all the people that were going to jump what it was going, like, essentially what it was going to be like, you know, your chicken wing pose. And he pulled... lego hair over because he was like hey i want to show them what this is going to look like so lego hair like awkwardly walks over and nip slip instructor man flips him around so he's back to front

and then he like pulls him against his body because that's what it's going to be like when they jump yeah and then he was like all right do your chicken wing pose and lego hair does chicken wing pose and my favorite part is because you're falling your head is going to be pushed back

So he grabbed his forehead and put it on his own shoulder. And Lego hair looked so uncomfortable. Unalarmed. And you see him... pick his head back up and like the guy grabs his head shoves it back again yeah like the guy was not gentle like and i i'm thinking i'm like He probably is more gentle with other people. Like, I think he played this up because he's like, oh, I'm going to fuck around with this guy. Oh, man.

he looks so awkward you should put that in the oh in the visuals for sure yeah maybe do a little like video clip it was so good so jim bob jumps not much to report it just kind of it's whatever It is what it is. And then it, the episode ends with both families back at the tater tot mansion singing amazing grace. Yep. And that's it. With like an opaque. uh montage of like some skydiving and the kids in the planes and yeah it was very that felt very like 2000s yeah very that's it really um i think

Overall, it was a fluff episode. It felt very reality show-esque where you could tell it was like, okay, we only have a little bit of content. Let's show them doing things. This is the fill in between.

the engagement and then they're gonna have the wedding coming up but in between it's like what what can we have these people do hey you're gonna go skydiving yeah so we'll see that going forward where there's always like an event fluff for a couple episodes and then an event and then more fluff yeah And the biggest takeaways are both families.

get real defensive when you question them about their beliefs and their individuality and their individuality and there's too many Duggar boys little Duggar boys coming around the houses So we're going to take a little bit break. We'll be back with the deep dive. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft.

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So for the deep dive portion, the third member of this podcast team, our little podcaster Mildred, is sitting on my lap. And what am I supposed to do? Make or leave? That's true. So can you hear her? I don't know. Can you hear her? no there it is i could get a little bit of that purring so she's sitting in my oh there okay i think we're good now she left she doesn't she doesn't like to be the star yeah she just likes to be behind the scenes okay

So for today's deep dive, we're going to kind of address the elephant in the room. Not Josh's new prison look. He's looking a little elephant-y. Not that. But we're going to talk about what is what is their religion? What is their cult? I feel like I have kind of like vaguely been kind of like skirting around it because I knew I needed to do an actual.

deep dive on it but we just had so many things that had to be addressed like current situations that has kind of gotten kicked yeah kicked down the road you know a little i didn't know if that was a pun because they wear floor-length denim skirts you've been skirting around it i didn't get a good one high five pretty good okay so let's start with what is their religion so technically their religion is baptist but that's really not like the culty part of it

Okay. The culty part of it is that they're a part of the IBLP, which stands for the Institute in Basic Life Principles. So what I'm going to do is... I'm going to just give a little bit of history about IBLP and talk a little bit as we go through that, like what actually drew the Duggars in.

But we're not going to get into super specifics because this is just going to be kind of broad. And then later on with more deep dives, we will. I mean, there's so much. Oh, my God. There's so much that later on with future deep dives, I'll be able to really pull from.

some of the belief systems which we already have done with like talking about like the courting and things correct but we will have a lot more to talk about as time goes on okay So the IBLP is described as a non-denominational Christian organization that serves as an umbrella organization for several ministries.

Go figure, of course, this makes them tax exempt and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. And on their actual website that you can go to even today, this is how they describe themselves. IBLP was established for the purpose of introducing people to the Lord Jesus Christ and is dedicated to giving individuals

families, churches, schools, communities, governments, and businesses clear instruction and training. There's that training word they always use on how to find success by following God's principles found in scripture. They say that this is done through seminars, educational programs, printed literature, and operations of different facilities and centers. Okay. With certified lust counselors? Exactly. Non-certified.

non-certified less counselors that's a throwback to episode one yep so let's talk a little bit about the history so it was founded by bill gothard Bill Gothard was born November 2nd, 1934. So he's an oldie. And moldy. And moldy. We will definitely... be doing a deep dive on bill gothard himself i just could not combine it all it would just be too long so today is very very broad building the foundation exactly

When he was 15, apparently Bill just, you know, took notice of all the bad choices that his classmates were making around him. Bad choices. Yeah, my nephew, he says bad choices. He was really about this kid at school making... bad choices so we always say that now making bad choices no thank you anyways he noticed i'm making bad choices And that is when Bill decided that he would dedicate his life to helping young people make wise choices. Okay.

I feel like that's more of like one of those things where like your hindsight, you're like, oh, yeah, that makes a good story. When I was 15, I decided like, oh, yeah, you really do you think he really had a day at 15 years old? He was like, that's my life's work. Right. It just is like a it's like a great story to tell. Yeah.

So fast forward to 1961, and this was the first time that Bill Gothard really put something together like officially. And it was based off his thesis that he wrote at Wheaton College. He created the campus teams program that he ran out of his house. And the program was designed to help like.

troubled teens and help them resolve conflicts between them and their families so then and three years later in 1964 after he'd already graduated from Wheaton College The college invited him to create and teach a college course based on his work with teens.

Great. This is what we need. Somebody giving this fucking asshole a platform. It makes me wonder, is this the point? Had he kept doing it out of his house, would he be where he is at now? You can just see these pinpoint moments. You're like, this may have been the time that we...

gave this person too much of a platform and it all went downhill from there yeah like did he he probably networked and like became friends with people at the college and then was like camp kind of campaigning for it too probably i'm assuming yeah I'm assuming. Like creating those opportunities for himself. So when he created this class, the first class contained 46 students that were youth pastors, teachers, and people all registered for the class.

The next time he did the class the following year, it grew to 120 students. So Homie was feeling himself and he was like, oh shit, I tripled my people. Correct. And he was feeling good about it. And then unfortunately, it continued to grow, went to a seminar. So it went from just being like this college course that people got credit for. But then it became a seminar. that roughly 10,000 to 20,000 people were attending each time. Wow. Which is insane.

So then in 1974, so 10 years later after it became that official course at the college, 10 years later in 1974, he changed the name of it to Basic Youth Conflicts. Okay. Does that ring a bell for you? Basic youth conflicts? Yes. Does that ring a bell at all? I don't think so. That is what Pa Keller attended that made him become a Christian when he was 19 years old. Oh. Okay. So we can kind of see this is how they...

This is how they lure the people in. You take someone troubled, you take someone who's vulnerable, you get them in that way. And really the 70s was like a major fucking heyday for IBLP. And for Colts in general.

let's be real no yeah you're totally yeah totally every that's true like every time you think of a cult it's like 70s yeah like post hippie era like pre-technology boom of the 80s when everybody started drinking the flavor aid yeah the grape flavor aid yeah And then doing nothing after that. But yeah, so it really attracted that boomer crowd. They weren't boomers, but it really attracted them, all of those vulnerable youth.

So then from there, it continued to expand into other seminars and teachings. It really started as this youth thing, right? But, of course, he was like, you're feeling the high of people listening to you and eating up everything that you're saying. So, of course, he starts adding on to it. He's adding on different topics and different seminars. So then that brings him to change the name yet again in 1989 to what we know today, the IBLP Institute of Basic Life Principles.

And so it's been that ever since, but we went through three name changes up until that point as it kept adding on different things. All right, so let's talk a little bit about the different programs that it offers. So first there is the seminars. The first one being the basic seminar, which is just kind of like the intro to all of Gothard's like teachings in general. It's 32 hours long.

oh damn usually taught over the course of six days yeesh wow it focuses on the seven basic life principles which are design authority responsibility suffering Ownership, freedom, and success. So I guess the idea behind it all is that he's teaching people how to view life, like all things in life through the perspective of God.

Okay. So then it's kind of funny because the alumni of this course are, once they pay for it that first time, they're allowed to retake this basic seminar anytime they want to. Which I was like, that right there, red flag.

yeah oh yeah do you know what it reminds me of what's that so tim and i met in culinary school and paid way too much money to learn fucking nothing they robbed us and one of their selling points was that oh and after you after you go here you can come back and take a class at any time yeah red flag i never saw a single person in any of the classes were be a repeat right but our school no longer even fucking exists anymore doesn't exist

So I was like, this sounds like our school. I did get two great things out of that school. You. And then the other one is... The best vegetable peeler I've ever had in my life. I still use it to this day. If anything ever happens to that peeler, I don't know what I'm going to do. It's the best peeler. It's an expensive peeler. It's so good. That's so, yeah, that's my two takeaways from that school. They robbed me blind. But I got you an appealer. Very appealing. That is a good merp. I know.

And it's a really good peeling. It's so good. I've never. I look. She's still going on about the peeler. No, I look. Tim, I look. The teeth on it are so good. It's like they're fine. And it's not a straight edge. It's got little teeth, but it's so good. Ooh, damn girl, them tea fine. I'm still looking for one comparable because if something happens to this one, I don't know what I'm going to do. Anyways, next seminar. That was a seven-minute diatribe about a peeler. The best peeler.

Shout out, Master Meister. Right? One of the only good things they gave me at that school. Alright, so after the basic seminar, there's the advanced seminar, which... prerequisite you have to take the basic to take the advanced and it builds upon that basic seminar but this time it brings more of like marriage family and finances into focus

Then there's also the anger resolution seminar, which sounds, I mean, it is just what it sounds. They say it's kind of a reworking of the basic seminar, but through if you have anger issues. Okay. Then there's the Financial Freedom Seminar, which the thing about this one, it was the Financial Freedom Seminar is what initially drew in Jim, Bob, and Michelle. That was the very first link between them and anything related to IBLP. So this will be a future deep dive, maybe in a couple episodes.

We will definitely talk about it in depth. But this is because there is the funny Jim Bob and Michelle never straight up address. This is when we joined IBLP. Right. But I think it's because that's not usually how it works out for most people. It is kind of this gradual thing because they have all these different facets, all these different umbrella type things that I think that people just.

if one thing and that's how they get you in so they were really attracted to this financial freedom thing right and then it's like well what else is this amazing man teaching us correct and so yeah so that's why i think that there's not like oh one day you're just iblp because it could it varies from person to person it's kind of like a slow slow burn type thing you know yeah my my best guess about when this happened so i know from reading their book that it was after

they had the twins. So, you know, they had Josh and then they had John, David and Jana in January of 90. So my best guess is that they took these, the seminar somewhere in 90 or 91. Okay.

So that's kind of it for seminars for now, but let's talk about some of the other umbrella ministries of IBLP. Go figure, they have prison ministry. And I just want to read you this quote from their website that's currently on there because I think it's funny. Okay. It says, what is powerful enough to make a person want to stay in prison?

One inmate who was about to be released asked if he could remain in jail to complete the basic seminar that was being held at his jail. Okay. This seminar has changed the attitude, behavior, and outlook on... on life of hundreds of inmates each year they just love tooting that horn of theirs oh yeah so then they also have various educational programs one of which of course is ati

which stands for Advanced Training Institute. And that is a homeschool curriculum created by Bill Gothard that is based on the Sermon on the Mount. We have seen that that is where they go on their trips every year at Big Sandy. That's where they climb walls and learn about God. And that's where Josh met Anna. This is the place. This is where they saw the Bates.

So ATI is the second thing that drew them in. So the first thing they were doing was those financial seminars. And then in 1992, they started to research and bring in the ATI curriculum into their home when Josh was four years old. Okay. When you say ATI, I think of there's a mechanic school here in town that's called Automotive Technical Institute. So when you're like ATI, I'm like, oh, so he was learning about like carburetors. Close.

So some of the other things that they have are public service ministry, which sounds like they're print materials that they... And then I was like reading like they even have in how it mentioned that it was for governments and schools. Yeah. I saw some stuff online that I didn't get too deep into, but they do. They have sold like these like.

character key things to schools as curriculum so it's kind of wild to think that like a public school setting has used some of his materials yeah weird then the last one is that they have various training centers So that includes things like Journey to the Heart, which we'll hear about a little bit going forward, as well as the Alert Academy, which is big with the Duggar boys. Okay. Still to this day, like one of them just recently graduated from it.

Definitely going to be a future deep dive. Without diving too hard, what is the Alert Academy? Can you give me a Cliff's Notes version? They send the boys there, and it's very physical, but it's kind of like... so there was this thing where a lot of people online are like oh it's where they send people who send boys when they're like being like bad or something or like kind of like almost like the way they send away josh but then other people who are within

have left iblp or like no it's really kind of like more of like a rite of passage like they kind of send every boy there it's considered it's like boy scouts with god but like it's like going to boot camp that's what it that's what i was thinking for it's like going to military like boot camp it's very physical super um super strict yeah but then this like whole cult side of it too i feel like it's a a way to keep them from masturbating

Like, that's pretty much all of it. They're like, go to this really cool thing. You're going to be there with all the other people that are in your community, kids that are of your age. It'll keep you from wanking it. It'll be great. You'll climb walls. And learn about God. I don't think that's too far off. I think that's pretty accurate. What did you do with your summer? I didn't jack it and I climbed walls. For God. For the Lord.

Okay, but since we aren't getting too deep today and I'm just giving you these basics of what IBLP is and kind of the history and operation, I did at least want to give you like one little goody that will make you laugh. Nug. Give us the... The nougat sinner. So in 1986, Bill Gothard wrote a letter to his followers warning them of the evils of the Cabbage Patch doll.

Just kind of giving you a summary. I read a whole bunch of different people's takeaways from this. So I'm just kind of summarizing a bunch of different things. But in summary... I mean, those kids look freaky. I mean, I'll give them that. In summary... He thinks that, okay, so do you know how the Cabbage Patch dolls, when you buy them brand new, they come with that little certificate inside? Mm-hmm.

And basically it's that you are signing this agreement, like you're adopting to love it and you're adopting it, right? Correct. This little birth certificate, adoptive certificate, right? Yeah. He thinks that signing that little certificate is violating the first commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

So, with that mindset, when you signed this fake adoption agreement for a toy... you are committing your life to that as a god he says that by signing this agreement to love the doll that that is disobedience to god and violation of the first commandment So that is giving Satan the chance to get his foot in the door to your home. That is real deep for a fucking piece of paper in a doll box. I hope you stretched her back because you're reaching.

So he encouraged his followers to burn the dolls. Oh my. And in the case that you were unable to like soon, like there's some reason you weren't able to just go start a bonfire right then and there. He encouraged you to place it out in the garage, face down in a box, or facing a wall. And I was cracking up because I read this one where a girl said that she's like, I apologize to any of my friends' parents who found me facing their dolls into the corner of their room.

Thought I was a fucking weirdo. Oh, man. Do you know what his evidence is to this? I'm ready. His evidence is that someone, one of the followers, whose child was having night terrors... Suddenly, they stopped as soon as they burned that Cabbage Patch doll. Oh. So, very solid evidence. It's a rare condition, the Cabbage Patchophobia. Yep. So...

I just had to give you one thing just to be like, oh, this is some of the crazy shit that this man has said, that these people are fucking eating up. Infinity. What do you mean crazy? I'm just happy that... To hear that somebody else is saying the things that I've been thinking about. Cabbage Patch dolls. Well, it was funny because one person was like, she remembers when her parents were...

telling her like relaying this information and she said in that moment she was just so grateful she never owned one because she's like i didn't want to have to burn it if i like you know she's like the thought of having to burn your doll she's like i thought was really like sad so she's like thank god i never had a fucking cabbage patch doll

And those were like a commodity. Yeah, they're expensive. Those were the hot toy at the time. So the fact that you were going to get this and then some dude is going to tell me I need to burn it. Screw you, guy. It's like something was getting too popular and he's like, hey, hey, hey, you're letting Satan in the door. Can't get more popular than the Lord. Finally, somebody has the same views that I have.

If you don't know, there's an SNL Weekend Update character called Drunk Uncle. Oh, I love Drunk Uncle. And one of my favorite things that he says is he's like, finally, somebody's saying the things that I've been thinking. And also saying. God, I love that. It's such a good sketch. All right. So I just want to close you out now with just a few IBLP connections.

I'm going to start with like the least connected into the most connected. You got to get connected for free. Get connected for free with Education Connection. The banger of our generation, I'm telling you. That's a good one. Look it up if you haven't. Education Connection. It was a commercial back in the day. All right. Least connected. Sarah Palin. Okay. Not actually a member per se, but while she was mayor, she did attend a few of the conferences.

Oh. Not surprising. Number one. I think it also panders to... to the type of people that they want their voter you know to like the type of voters like she's looking for so it's like look at how conservative i am and it was something about like families now is there just one sorry to interact is there just one kind of conference

that's like everybody goes to or are they is there regional they have i mean they have a ton of different facilities that they have that are actual facilities but then they can also hold seminars and things like conferences just in various places that they might rent out as well so they have their own

own facilities but then also they'll just do stuff kind of anywhere because there's like video game conferences where it's like PAX East and PAX West you know what I mean I didn't know if they had anti-cabbage patch East and toy burning west yeah you know so what i from what i saw i i didn't even write down the one that she went to because i'm it wasn't like one of the big ones it's not like going to ati or going to like one of these things or it's like the actual

like the families that are going to this shit every year this is just one of those like conferences okay not not one of the basic seminars okay here's another one for you mr hike hike why did i say hike mike huckabee hike muckabee hike muckabee mike huckabee for people who don't know because i do know there are some people that aren't

They're from other countries and stuff. So Mike Huckabee is not only a Baptist minister, but he was the longtime governor of Arkansas. He was the one that they had the sticker on the back of their car in that one episode. Correct. And then he was a Republican presidential candidate in both 2008 and 2016. He didn't make it far, though.

And then he also has a daughter that's in politics now, blah, blah, blah. He's had TV shows on Fox News and had radio shows and stuff like that. So not at all surprised that Mike Huckabee is somewhat affiliated. it's clear that he's taken at least one of the the at least the basic seminar i'm not sure how much further he went but we do know for a fact he at least took that one and he was quoted as saying some of the best programs available

for instilling character into the lives of people comes from this program. So, Mike Huckabee. Or Hike Muckabee. I feel like that's a pretty standard mindset from people that are... kind of heavily involved in things where they talk a lot about like values and character and regardless of whether that's true or not I also feel like it's just a way to elevate yourself over other people because if

if I disagree with something that you say, I can be like, well, they don't, they just don't have character. Oh yeah. They're totally. Oh, I guess that's not the same. I was going to say my dad used to say morally bankrupt, but that's not character related. Never mind. Same vein though. Yeah. Like calling somebody worldly and having it be a negative thing. Yeah. My dad didn't want me to join the Air Force because he said I'd be surrounded by people.

who are morally bankrupt. Good God. How I came out as well-rounded as I am, I'll never fucking understand. Next one. Hobby Lobby. This one was huge a while back. So Hobby Lobby is owned by the Green family. And the way that they have supported IBLP is by donating various facilities over the years. One of them being the Big Sandy campus, which is where Alert is at. That's where they go to ATI. So that gigantic campus, he sold to the IBLP in 2001 for $10. Wow.

ten dollars damn tax was more than anything else right um in 2000 he donated a building in little rock arkansas does that sound familiar that is where josh was sent back in 2003 so do you if you remember how i told you some of the people were kind of confused in the community thinking that he really was had gone to the that the duggars had gone to the police because they said that it was housed the police was housed in the same building Now I have a little more insight onto that.

For 10 years, the IBLP rented out the ground floor of that building to the Little Rock Police Department at the cost of $1 per year. So they have since started charging them normal rent because IBLP is on the downward trend money-wise, which is good. That's a good thing. That means they're losing support. Yeah.

but yeah so that so now that puts it more into perspective people are like oh if he got sent there well the police is right there so they would think like oh yeah so they're gonna they are gonna get this involved or it also puts into perspective how maybe even if they had taken him to we know he took him to that one pedo himself um later on but

I think it also puts into play where even if they had taken them, do you think they would have done anything? Because they're like, oh, it's this place that's renting it to us for a dollar. They're this nice organization. Do you think they would have really done anything? I don't know.

I remember when that was a big deal, when the last voting cycle was Hobby Lobby. And there was a lot of people that were like, God, they're so... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there was just a lot of like... we don't agree with what they're what they are lobbying for no pun intended that um you know we're not going to go there and that i just told you those two facilities because they're something that we could kind of relate it to but they

There's at least three more. One of them is in New Zealand. So this is pretty widespread. So they are definitely using all their money to support this type of cabbage patch. To stop the spread of Cabbage Patch dolls around the world. It's also that piousness of like, we're going to go to another country and teach these... Poor people. These poor people that just aren't good enough the right way. They need our help. It's the, it's, you know.

not turning it into a race thing but it's like the white savior oh yeah totally that's how i feel about um anna's sister as they're going to zambia it's like oh yeah with all their kids and stuff you're gonna go there with your baker's dozen and just save all the people yeah exactly gross

Just as long as they don't have cabbage patch dolls. That's all I care about. At least face them towards the wall. Good God. So that was like his suggestion for like if you were at somebody's house and they had a cabbage patch doll. Still go over and face it towards the wall and you'll be fine. Could you imagine going to someone's house and if your thing was like family photos and I was just slowly putting your family photos facing towards the table? Oh, God.

Okay, last connection, which is... Ooh, I'm ready. Very involved. Mr. Gil Bates himself. Okay. So, I mean, I don't know. You might have picked up on the fact that the Bates definitely have the same belief system and values as the Duggars. That's correct. May have picked up on that. Yeah. But the reason it's a little bit deeper with Gill is because... Gil has actually been on IBLP's board of directors since 2013.

Okay. So what we were watching today was like filmed in 2008. So it wasn't until five years later that he joined the board, but he is still on the board to this very day. Oh, wow. And I'm not sure if they...

I know at one point they at least had six people on the board. I'm not sure if at any given point in time since 74, if they've had more than six. But I do know that as of today, he's only one of three. So I find that also interesting. So they're... losing money they've been losing money for years so that's why they've been having to scale back on certain things certain properties sell off things and to me just only having three board members also says a lot as well

because you'd think there'd be a lot of people that they're like fuck they would want to be high up in this in this you know yeah so if there's not as people clamoring for it i think that that says a little something oh yeah and they probably ate that up when they had their show oh yeah like oh cool one of one of our own is out you know in the public site guys that's what's so funny so the Duggars definitely became the face of IBLP

for sure they became the face of it they were all over their website um there's still some mentions of them off the website too they did a lot of speaking engagements in fact they were doing a speaking engagement like The day that Josh got arrested, they had to, like, cancel one because they were, like, at it when it happened. Oh, damn. Gil and... Oh, the Duggar girls have even spoken at different things. Like, they're very much faces of it. So are Gil and Kelly.

even up until recently they there was even advertisements for them like in 2021 speaking at various conferences and stuff so they're still very involved so it's just funny that we take jim bob who's the face of it but never actually became like on the board of it yeah and gil who's um known but it's not quite to the same level but he's actually a little bit deeper but actually being on the board

But at the same time, and again, I think this could be something we talk about in depth in the future. But I do find it interesting because you would think of it as Gil being deeper into it being on the board. Yeah. But he has actually been. more accepting of his children kind of drifting away from iblp he now don't get me wrong it's not like any of their kids are out there liberal or anything they're all super conservative christian

But they have kind of drifted from some of those standards. Like they're wearing clothing that was made post-1900? Yes. hate when your kids stray and and they're some of them married people deep within the iblp some of them didn't so yeah but in general there doesn't seem to be the same kind of like division that there is within the Duggar families of like the way he is not accepting of Jill and Derek and it's they haven't completely cut off Ginger and Jeremy but he very clearly does not like

jeremy and yeah like you know so it's just funny so you think gill would be more judgmental when actually it looks like uh jim bob is so i was actually talking um maria shout out to maria we were kind of going back and forth on some on the comments of the last episode. And so I was saying that I think it's interesting because I think it shows that obviously the cult IBLP definitely plays into it, of course. Yeah. But the fact that...

Jim it just I think it goes to show more that Jim Bob just has a more controlling personality so you have this cult aspect but it's just his is so much worse and he has so much more control over his children yeah

because he's just a controlling person. So yes, Gil and Kelly still have these same belief systems, and he's on the fucking board of this cult, but he's not as controlling. So he's letting his kids kind of do... do their own thing not that they're being anything crazy yeah but without this like division or you know so it's just even if you look at personalities you know jim bob is awkward and kind of off-putting And as much as Gil still has fucked up, you know, beliefs on certain things, like...

He seems like an endearing man. He seems like if you met him in a social setting that had nothing to do with religion, you'd be able to have a nice conversation with him and he would move on. Yeah. Jim Bob's not really like that. He's that person where you're like, ugh.

Oh yeah, totally off-putting. So I can definitely see why Gil, even though he has kind of some looser restrictions on... his kids like you were just talking about he would it would be a lot easier to have him be on the board than Jim Bob just because you're kind of off-putting man On a random thing that I just thought about during the episode, they did a talking head with one of the creepy Bates boys. Now, I'm sorry. All the boys, which is only two of them from that family.

that they show talking super creepy like serial killer they have a lot more boys but they only show two like really like man and if those are the two that they pick the must the other ones must be real bad but then i even feel bad because they've only talked to like one of the girls and it's the oldest one yeah and she's like nice and you're like you she's not even the oldest but yeah but but it's like you're nice like

you're cute you seem normal you know what i mean like or you could be normal you know so it's kind of sad and then she's wearing this god-awful like lime green bib dress but wait till someday we talk about her wedding oh god um so When they were talking to them about courting. They asked one of the older Bates boys, oh, so do you think that, you know, maybe one of these like Duggar girls is the one? And the guy got so awkward, even more awkward. But then he was like.

Well, you know, we haven't really spent a lot of... Time with them recently. Seven years. And you could tell he was like, get out of this question. Get out of this question. Eject. Eject. Abort. Abort. Abort. No, not anymore. Eject. Eject. And then Aaron says, I don't know, maybe. She's just like, you don't know. You never know.

Dodged a bullet there, Aaron. Yeah, oh, they all did. Oh, thank God. They were always being people constantly saying, oh, do you think a Duggar and a Bates are going to get together? So far, no.

worked out better for the baits yep yeah and you know what i think the duggars helped the baits in a lot of ways because they comparatively has made them seem normal like right here we're giving like praise to gill and kelly for looking normal they're still the same it's still it's still from the same cloth

of bullshit but here we are going like they come off more normal like the Duggars seriously did them like it's funny here was Jessa thinking oh thank god the Bates are making me look cool but ultimately the Duggars did them a huge service they have made them look more warm more normal yeah they have made them fly under the radar more and you know they never made the money that the duggars did but they actually have really successful like other careers and things and like um

Yeah, I just think that. And also, whether the Bates are truly different personality-wise from the Duggars or not, you could also argue that... Maybe they saw some of the stuff that was going on with like the Duggars and they're like, oh, we're going to steer away from say, like I said, how they weren't super vocal about their buddy system. Correct. I think that they just kind of were like, they learned the things to say and not to say. Correct. Yeah.

they had someone kind of leading it before them making the mistakes first yeah yeah so i mean you could go argue back and forth are they different are they the same what's this or what's that but just from the outside they do come off differently yeah yeah definitely

All right, that's it for me. Anything else from you? No, I think this was a filler episode, but I feel like we got some good nuggets. I do like the fact that you're kind of pushing the deep dive into... what actually guides them like what are their beliefs what are the what's the letter of the law we have so much to go through oh man i'm horrified tim i forgot to tell you i should have brought this up

The internet knows. Oh my God. The other day I got an email suggesting one of the seminar books from IBLP. It was like the basic seminar, like textbook. For like $40. And I got the email that it was like, we thought this would be good for you from like Amazon. I'm like, what are you doing?

Maybe we can, like, thrift book it for, like, $4 or something. No, I've looked. Believe me, that's where I'm getting all of my Duggar material. I ordered six more books this week. Oof. You should be ashamed. I know. But the internet knows. Like, I wasn't even looking for that on Amazon. And then Amazon said, I'm like, what are you doing?

people are gonna know it's getting it's getting dicey it's very like people are gonna walk into my house and see all this fundamental shit all over like all over my house Just put a bottle of tequila next to your Dugger book so they know that you don't subscribe. We need to go get our vape, put it out, like everywhere we can. Anyway, sorry. It's getting...

Getting dicey. Okay. So as usual, we have our Instagram. I've loved hearing from you people. It has been so much fun. We've been getting a lot more like traction, just like talking, having conversations and comments again. Thank you, Maria. That was a really interesting conversation we had back and forth. lots of dms and emails just loving it so instagram is digging up the duggars pod and the email is digging up the duggars at gmail yep

We've seen some more reviews this week. Some more ratings and a couple more reviews. We love those. Once again, that helps us get found by other people. If you like what you're listening to. definitely we don't like it why are you still listening it's been fascinating i feel like we've had a lot of good interaction with some listeners and um

This week in particular, I feel like we've seen a lot of growth. I remember being excited when we hit like 500 listens. Yeah. And then I feel like we were at 6,000 and then we blinked and we're at 7,000 and we're almost at eight already. Yeah. you know so we're getting like 1500 in a day some days where i'm like oh my god like it's yeah it's i was not expecting this type of growth like

It's kind of wild to look at. And it's super awesome. This is like a niche thing that people are into. And it's obviously a community that I'm joining now. We've allowed you in. We really do need to make jackets. I was voluntold. to join this community but it's been great and I think the interaction's been probably my favorite part so yeah stick with us we appreciate it we really appreciate you guys so much

And Mildred. Oh, Mildred just walked back in. So I need to go feed her. So we're going to sign out for this week. Bye, guys.