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Hey guys, it's future Tim and future Whitney and we just wanted to reach back in time and address something real quick. Do it. We've seen our numbers go up and we've had a lot of new listeners to the pod recently. Now, when we first started this, we've never done anything like this before. Not remotely. No, we've never recorded anything. I was a musician in school, but I never recorded anything. So we started with some very...
cheap, entry-level equipment. Bad equipment and inexperience. Absolutely. So I bought Whitney this, like, sound... podcast deck years ago for christmas um and it sat in our closet for years went through a house move we came here we finally started using it and realized
this thing don't work so good. This ain't gonna work. No, no, it was real bad. So we just wanted to reach back in time to anyone who's joining us for the first kind of chunk of episodes and just let you know, we know that our audio is rough. We get it. We know. No, we're painfully aware. Painfully aware, and we look back so embarrassed at it. But we stick behind our content. Yes, I do.
I feel like our content is great. So all we're saying is we hit our stride probably a few episodes into the pod. So just stick with us. Yeah, just, you know. Stick with us through the growing pains. I promise it gets better. And this was actually a huge moment of growth for me to jump into something without mindfucking it to death and not being totally prepared and whatever. So I just appreciate.
If you guys do stick with it, because, you know, there's something to be said about being one of those people that you're like, I was there for the beginning when it sounded like two different volumes in a fucking tin can. And then really bad Spotify tags. Yeah. Just stick with us. We promise you we feel like we stick behind our content and we hope you guys love it too. So we'll hit our stride.
Hey guys, it's even farther in the future, Tim. By like 45 seconds. Yep. I told Tim, I said, I want to say something. So when we were recording this, I had to stop about four times because I kept saying we've had a lot of new users. And I was like, listeners. Listeners.
I'm like a bad actor on like a movie or a commercial or something. It made me think of Joey and how he kept saying, mmm, noodle soup. And they're like, damn it. So Tim was noodle souping through that whole thing. And I was like, do we need a script? But anyways, I think we made it through it. That's all I wanted to say. Thanks users. Okay, so I guess this is a ROM.
Well, I guess welcome to the very first episode of Digging Up the Duggars. Welcome. So I'm Whitney. I'm Tim. We're married. Are we? We are. And, yeah, so this is – I don't even know how you start these things. You just say, like, welcome. Yeah. So I think one of the first things we should do is – Obviously, the whole Duggar situation has been around for a long time. So I guess start with how did you come across them? How did you start in watching them? Okay, so they came out.
on tv like i've been watching them from the very beginning from when they were before they had their actual tv show when they were just specials on discovery channel so i've been watching them day one um you know the beginning is just fascinating and then after a while i i don't say hate watch because i feel like hate watch was like
At the time, it wasn't hate watching. I cringe watched them for years. I watched them. I would go in and out, but I always pretty much kept up with it, even if it was a little bit, you know, delayed. I watched Into Counting On and all that. But really, it was really reignited recently because of all the stuff with Josh Duggar. And then there's you. Which I, the only like semblance of.
show that i watched kind of on discovery was like the man stuff it was like the orange county choppers and like the things where they were just ripped cars apart you know my dad and i used to watch stuff like that so that was kind of the only semblance of of like discovery TLC shows. So the things like that didn't really pique my interest at all. So like, you knew I watched it, but really it was when it was when Josh Duggar got arrested last year.
I remember we were at House Murphy eating German food. I remember very specifically. With that cute man playing accordions. What was his name? I don't remember, but we went there. We're in this outdoor alleyway. This man starts playing these old polka tunes on this little mini stage. And he was wearing lederhosen. And he was 100% legit. And his cute little wife was cheering him on.
Anyway, go ahead. It was during that meal, meeting him, that everything came out that Josh was being arrested. And I remember telling, and I was like, oh, my God. And I was all in. And then, so, you know. Fast forward to the actual trial this past December. I mean, I was fully in. I could hardly work because I was refreshing my phone to watch the fucking sun coverage because only once I had like live-ish coverage because there's nobody in the courtroom.
and in typical you know it was that typical situation where you couldn't give a shit But I was coming home every day and telling you everything. And you played along. It's just that typical thing where you're into something. So you're just like spouting off everything to your partner. And they're just kind of like nodding their head and like, yeah.
Yeah. You mean completely enthralled exactly like you are because I love you? Totally. Yes, you were just as enthralled. So yeah, it was just that typical thing where I came home every day and I was just like... telling you all of this um but you have you don't have any history you have no basis so as i'm telling you stuff you may have thought things were interesting but you couldn't connect it to anything right
No, not remotely. I always felt like the idea that these people were getting notoriety for having a bunch of kids was kind of asinine. And I understand the intrigue. And I think we follow an Instagram page now that kind of talks about how they feed a group this big and how that, you know, so there's like those little like life things that you're curious about that is interesting to see that.
Because you can't relate to having that many people to feed. But the fact that these people were getting popularity for that, I just don't understand. Yeah, so you had nothing to relate any of this I was telling you to. But it was like through this whole thing and being so hooked on it.
I was like, I need to do a rewatch. It's always when things pop back up that you're like, God, I need to do a rewatch. So then I had already decided that I wanted to do that from the very beginning with the specials, even before the show. And then it just popped into my head one day. I was like...
oh my god you need to do this with me because it will it's two different perspectives now like we're already going through the perspective of looking back like it was bad then but before you're like well it's fucking weird and that's a little cringy and whatever they're beliefs are bullshit but you kind of before you're like whatever works for them but now hindsight knowing how things turned out I feel like it'll be completely different going back and watching it for me because
Things that may have been a small flag before are going to be like a giant fucking red flag. Of course. And then, you know, just... what was different what did i think then where i was like that seemed normal watching it as a 14 year old i'm like well that's okay yeah and then now uh you know a 32 year old woman you're like oh that's bullshit yeah well i think one of the interesting um perspectives of this
podcast specifically is we watched the first special together and that's what this episode is going to be about. Those are the things that we're going to break down because I have no semblance of understanding of kind of their whole thing. I'm watching it from... I'm kind of ingesting the special itself. And I can only fill in with some of the things that Whitney's told me.
She did so much research. She has this master timeline that she's keeping. So once we sit down and have this conversation, now you can look at it and be like, oh my God, this is when this had happened. And even watching...
it together that there was already things where she was pausing and being like, no, okay, so around this time. So I think that's kind of one of the really interesting things that we want to do. And then what we actually talked about was not watching the episodes together anymore. And maybe like here or there. But I think it'll kind of keep my perspective with no experience very pure. And then she can kind of fill me in with all the deets. I tried not to say anything while we're watching it.
And she looked like she wanted to burst. Yeah, but also... Like, there were times where I was going back and rewinding and pausing, and I'm like, that's like giving away things. Like, you know, so it's like we're going to watch separately going forward. But like he said, I am putting work into this. I have consumed so much.
much Duggar literature. It is disgusting. But I'm tabbing things. I'm highlighting things. Like you said, I have a master timeline. I have quotes. I am putting in the work with this. I want you guys to know that I'm trying.
my best to make sure that this is comprehensive it's legitimately like she's trying to get her doctoral thesis uh that's how it feels because i'll look through books and there's just like notes and things in this and this little book this page is earmarked and yeah it's insane Okay, so kind of with that in mind, we'll just talk about how we're going to structure it. So we are, like we said, starting from the beginning with the specials. With the specials, each episode will be its own.
episode of the podcast maybe going forward when we hit the actual TV show we may combine a couple of them because like I mean by the time they got their own show it was like we're going paintballing today and it's like how much can you
how much can you extract out of this paintballing episode but what colors were the paintballs that's not very godly um But I feel like what we're going to be doing is recapping what happens in the episodes, however we see fit, whether it's like the one or two or whatever it's going to be. And then just kind of recapping what we saw. And then I'm going to use opportunities to deep dive into things as I see fit as they pop up in the episodes.
So the hard part is like right now, I want to tell you a million fucking things. Like so many things. But... I have to restrain myself because I'm going to wait for when it's more naturally a good time to bring up certain topics. Which I kind of feel like that aspect is a little bit of your personality in general, even if it doesn't have to do with the Duggars because you're such a details-oriented person.
So when I think every married couple can kind of relate to this, but there's whenever I've, I talked to somebody at work about something when he's like, what did you ask her? Blah, blah, blah. And I and no. And she's like, why didn't you like it blows her mind that I wasn't really interested in details, details, damn it. So I think that's what's so fascinating about this, too, is that.
Regardless of experience, regardless of all that, we also have different perspectives we're looking at. And hopefully, no matter who's listening to this, whether you watch them forever like me. Or maybe you're a Tim where you're watching it for the first time. Maybe you're even just hearing about it for the first time because we're explaining it to you. But whatever camp you're coming from, one of us is going to be looking through that same lens as you are.
So I think we're going to take one small break. And when we come on back, we are going to actually get into the heart of that first special. What was that first special called? 14 children and pregnant again. There you go. So yeah, so we're going to take a little break and we will be right back. Alright, so we are back. We are, once again, we did a full rewatch of that first special together. So as we went through, we were both just kind of keeping notes. So I think...
Whitney, you should lead it off and just kind of guide us through, and then I'll drop little nuggets of weird things, I think. Okay. So, 14 children and pregnant again. premiered on september 16th 2004 so nobody cares but that means it was my freshman year of high school so
But first of all, this first special, I was rewatching it. I was like, oh, it's so surface level, like compared to what I know now. I'm like, oh, they don't even tell you anything. It's very surface. And I kind of wonder at this point if they thought it was going to be.
standalone thing or if they knew they're going to do more things going forward but it definitely doesn't get too deep into stuff so it's like I'm really gonna have to restrain myself as we go through this because there's so much more I want to say I also felt like it was definitely a vibe. There was that 90s, early 2000s vibe of that era TLC. But did you notice? It's 2004.
And the way they're dressed, it looks like it is 1983. They got the bib dresses. Michelle's hair. Oh, good God. Ooh, the hairstyles were real bad. But anyway, so they introduced the family. It's kind of, you know... basic run-of-the-mill they had them like all in a line from like youngest to oldest uh what is i think josiah is it josiah i think josiah can't remember his own name he says somebody else's name yeah anyways um
But yeah, so some of the details, I just wanted to point out that they live at this point, they live in a three bedroom, two bath house. And I, in my book that I read, which was 2,200 square feet. That is only 400 square feet more than the house you and I and our cat live in right now. So, granted, it's more space than we need for two and a half of us. Sorry, Mildred. Mildred's the half. Like, when you...
There was 16 of them in 400. It's crazy. I'm like, that's... Yeah, it's gnarly. I think one of the notes I made from that lineup thing was... These kids are all creepy, even the littles. Because even the little ones were like weirdly awkward. You know what I mean? And not like cute, charming little kid awkward. It was weird. It's unfortunate. I mean, when those are your parents, I mean, what are you supposed to do? Facts.
Can I make one note real quick? One of the things that I always think about when you see families that have more than seven or eight kids, I feel like there's an assumption that they're either hyper-religious or real creepy. Or a combination of the two. Or both, yes. So the next thing that they go into is talking about their buddy system. and I took the quote of Michelle saying, the buddy system means mom can't be everywhere at all times. She's been working on that voice. Have I? Which...
You know, there's truth in that. Here's the thing. Like, when you dissect it all, there's truth in some of these things. It's true. Moms can't be there at all times. And even a mom with two kids can't see, you know, two kids can't see what they're doing at all times. But I'm like, this is to the extreme.
So the buddy system is that you have a big buddy and they may dress you, get you breakfast, change your diapers, keep track of you when you're out in public. They do the parenting of these select children. I noticed that specifically they just said Jim's Bob buddy is Michelle, which Jim Bob, of course, is the husband. So it's literally like they're saying, he doesn't have responsibility of any of these fucking kids. His buddy is his wife. That's it. Isn't that every marriage? I'm your buddy.
And Michelle's buddy is any baby until it's weaned. And then she's like, oh, here you go. And then she hands it off to her other kids. She hands it off to the sister mom. Oh, the creepy. Yeah, so this will all... I mean, as time goes on, we will talk about this more. I just think through this entire point, the thing that kept going through my head is...
We've been talking about, like, parentification recently of, you know, parents kind of offloading their responsibilities onto their kids, whether it's for...
monetary reasons because they have to work all the time or whether this, because there's just so many goddamn kids. You know, so that was like throughout this entire thing, that was just something that kept flashing through my head was like, you're once they're weaned you don't parent your children anymore like it just felt weird just you wait there's more but um yeah very surface for now
So then they kind of lead into how Jim Bob and Michelle met. Again, not very detailed, but they met when Jim Bob was 17, Michelle was 15, because Michelle worked at his mom's. the yogurt shop that she managed or something like that. And he invited her to a senior banquet, blah, blah, blah. They started dating. He proposed six months later and then they married about six months after that, which was like July right after.
after she graduated high school. So they were very, very young when they got married. But my biggest takeaway from this flashback, Michelle was actually fucking cute, and I hate to say it. She was. Did you notice? She was cute. She was like a cute girl of that era. And then you see her in her fucking bibbed dresses with her white hose. She was wearing the tights. It's just so unfortunate. She used to be normal and cute.
Anyways, that was my takeaway from that. Anything else you want to touch on with that? No, I did think that was interesting that they had known each other for so long. And I will get into it later. But I know you said that she wasn't. Did you say she converted? Was she part of that religion before or no? Yeah, we're going to have to touch on religion and a whole other... You're skipping lots of... Every time I ask any questions, I get the... We'd be here for eight days straight.
um so they kind of talked more about how in the beginning they kind of like hustled They flipped cars. They had a towing business. They sold insurance. They did real estate. One thing I didn't know much about until this episode and then reading it in the book, they had a convenience store. That kind of gets brushed over a lot. um and then they they uh decided on a few years into marriage that they were not going to have any debt
And this is the first time, episode one, you hear their famous motto. You're going to hear this all the time, Tim. It's buy used and save the difference. Yep. So that was it. I wrote that down because that was before they even got into that. One of the things that I wrote was how the hell do they make money? I mean, I think that's the that's part of the episode is like the kids all like saying.
like in their little talking head type things what do they get asked when they're out and everybody's like how do you feed all those kids are you guys a school group blah blah blah but like everybody everybody's like how the fuck do you pay for this shit yeah
Like, it's not an unfair question because it's like, what the hell? I also want to just point out before you move on that the only other note that I put in that part was, Jim Bob has nothing behind the eyes. He's like, and his fucking Lego head. Because there was a point where when he was telling the story of how they make money and the decisions they make and all that. And that's what I just kept thinking. I'm like, there ain't nothing back there. Nope. Nope. All right.
next thing is they talk about how which is surprising to me when you when someone has 4 000 children i do think it's funny when you hear that they didn't have their first child until four years into marriage So they had sex pest. Obviously, he was child number one. And then after that, they say that they decided to leave it up to God.
But they gave no details. Of course, I know all these details. But because it's kept vague at this point, we're going to talk about that in the future. But where do you go from four years into marriage having no children?
to having all the fucking kids so obviously something changed and we will talk about that some other time oh man you got to get that tease next um they went on what everybody wants to know like how do you feed this fucking army of little children um so we follow them as they go shopping at aldi
Which you've learned the love of Aldi recently. Only recently. Arizona didn't have them. It's like a mainstay other places, but it's brand new here. So this is a novelty for us. So they go shopping at Aldi. And just because I'm super into like inflation calculators, I'm so into that shit. Like I love seeing the prices of something in 1962 and blah, blah, blah. So their shopping trip for anybody else who gives a shit.
Came to $828.32 in 2004. And according to the inflation calculator, that's $1,260.70 today. I think it's more. It feels like it would be more. And do you know, was it that they were... They would only shop like once a month, right? Or was that like once a week? Do you know that? Like this was like their stock up the pantry again, like show blah, blah, blah. So they were getting like canned and like frozen shit. But I think I ended up reading in their book. That's.
a few years later but they spent about they spent about three thousand dollars a month okay so this was one of three or four trips you know um one thing i did want to note that i saw that i thought was hilarious was they're showing
The kids like heaving and hoeing this like heavy shit in and out of the carts. Like all these kids are doing the work. And at one point there's a scene where they're unloading the van to bring it inside. And I think it's Ginger that's like dropping shit because it's so heavy. She's like this little girl and then fucking sex pest walks by and he's like carrying like two small jars. So he's like 15 or something and he's doing jack shit nothing and like his little sister's like dropping heavy ass.
boxes it just shows he's a piece of shit from day one hey if his parents can uh pass off the parenting to the other the younger kids he can do this So then after shopping, they segue into jurisdictions, which is what normal people call chores. So jurisdictions are their assignments that everybody has. Did anything in this moment, in this segment, make you say what the fuck like I did? Did you catch it? The girl cleaning her parents' room? Exactly. Dude.
So they're interviewing Jana, which Jana is the oldest daughter. She's awkward as hell. So Jana says her jurisdictions are to clean the girls' room, the living room, and her parents' room. On what fucking planet? Is it your child's job to clean your fucking bedroom? I feel like I squinted a lot at this. You know when you hear something that sounds dumb or doesn't make sense and you squint real hard? This whole part had me squinting real hard. That's not normal.
Like, if my parents had been, like, cleaning my room, I'd be like, the fuck? I mean, but, like, my students, I mean, my parents didn't clean, that's a whole other thing. But, um, but, yeah, I thought that was really odd. I'm glad you picked up on that, too, because I was like, the fuck? Next thing they talk about homeschooling. It just, there's this scene of them all sitting around the kitchen table. And I was so taken aback by the fact that it was, you know, Josh.
like 14, 15, all the way down to Joy, who's five, and they're all sitting there together, and Michelle is like... bankruptcy now that doesn't mean going to the bank and getting money out and i'm like why are we talking about one topic They're treating it like it's the old days of the one-room schoolhouse. Well, they dress that way. They do. They do. But...
I'm like, why are we talking about the same things with a 15-year-old and a 5-year-old? The 5-year-old's like, I don't know my colors, but would you like to talk about bankruptcy? Bankruptcy! I look forward to more insight on the schooling in the future.
because it's like how much of that is was that like let's set up a shot of them all talking about something was that just set up or is that actually how they operate so we'll see going for you know i want to make a comment about that one of the things that i wrote down um
right before when they were at the grocery store was i remember there was this really awkward thing where jim bob had like grabbed a pack of cookies and they were like well dad wants a sweet treat and he like awkwardly walks it over to the grocery cart And the thing that I wrote down was awkward man, real like man or TV factor.
And I was watching his behavior and that was the thing that I kept asking to myself was, is he like this because it's on a TV show? Is he like this because this is how he is? I'm not... understanding if it's real or not you know what i mean because it kind of doesn't feel real at times well and it's the first one so it's like again
way more i don't know if i want to say way more produced but yeah like yeah maybe yeah like because it's very like i mean reality shows are anyway they're like you're gonna go do this day like i said today you're gonna paintball so we have content but like not knowing if this was really meant to be like a standalone thing or not like it's it's interesting so yeah um so after homeschooling oh actually kind of in that same
um topic-ish it was like the segue for that they talked about how they liked uh they liked homeschooling because then they could have field trips and it's like look they're on this field trip to go look at this thing about you know foam insulation Which is really just them saying that they're teaching their kids when they're using their children as child labor to build their fucking house. Because they are building their own home. The tater tot.
house the the tin mansion themselves so then they go into the hole each kid is helping build and blah blah blah they don't uh stay on that for too long but you you do see that they are building the bigger house to get out of the you know 2200 square feet and 16 people sharing two bathrooms and
one standard water heater as they say which i respect the fact that they were like look we need something bigger we have the means to kind of make what we need so like i respect the fact that they did that work But the fact that they were taking their kids to learn about foam insulation just feels so like veiled.
They're like, this is essentially training for what you're going to be doing later. Don't put it under the veil of, we're having a fun... Education! It's a field trip! We're having a fun field trip! No, you're essentially doing orientation for your laborer's labor. It's like when you convince your kids that dusting's fun. I wish we could teach Mildred that dusting was fun. Yeah, she's not on board.
um then they very okay well i do have to mention really quick that this is on youtube currently they go they blip off and on so we're really lucky that they're on there right now i think it is pretty ironic because the next scene is talking about tater tot casserole which is a huge thing in Duggar world it gets talked about all the time going forward and it is brought up in this first special but YouTube cuts out right at the part where they're about to give the recipe
And I was like, was that done on purpose? So it's like, they're like, get ready, two pounds of turkey. And then it completely cuts out and goes to the next scene. Gotta protect them family secrets. So sorry, guys. We can't give too many other deets about tater tot casserole this time. Maybe next time. Next scene is they're talking about how they hang out with this other family.
This is where it's interesting. They go ice skating. Do you remember this? They go ice skating. They talk about how they go to kids' night at this local restaurant. They probably fucking annihilate this local restaurant because they go on kids' night, which probably means that... They're like feeding their family food. It's probably kids eat free. Probably. And then they show up with their 14,000 kids and then...
There are other friends that have eight kids. As a food service professional, it made me cringe real hard. Yeah, I was like, these poor people. They even interviewed the lady, and they're like, they come in here about once or whatever, and she seemed like she seemed overwhelmed. She was not having it.
I felt bad for her. But what's interesting about this scene is... you know anytime i've really watched this before i mean you didn't file away names before because it didn't mean anything now going forward i was like oh my gosh and this is actually part where i think i paused it with you because this family that they were with
are the holts which we will get into that later but just keep that in mind um so after this whole like montage of hanging out with this other family is the actual birth of their 15th which is um jackson levi on may 23rd 2004 and you actually made a really good joke on this one do you remember they they had to do an emergency c-section on her or just c-section because he's transverse and you were like transverse that's that's our biggest nightmare to be trans
So yeah, Jackson Levi was trans, so they had to have a... um so that would be their nightmare then fast forward it's funny because obviously like i said earlier this um premiered in september 2004 so this obviously this last part had to have been some sort of add-on later on Because they fast forward a year later where like Jackson is like walking around and everything. So it has to be around May 2005 ish. I'm just saying ish because they don't.
tell you exactly it's showing that they're having to move out of that house because they had sold it to the church next door and they had been renting it back from the church like so they'd already sold it but we're renting it month month to month and the church was like we need to
bulldoze it their house go figure still wasn't ready so they had to get another rental so where they are showing them moving with all their friends and blah blah blah then after that it's all very rushed at the end like that part's very very rushed And then there's showing them like even more rushed going to ATI, which is like their homeschool conference, which you will see going forward that that is like almost in every season. It's like the social event of the season. Oh, man.
It's how they meet their spouses. It's how they interact with people that don't think they're super creepy. Other people equally as creepy. there you go because i literally that the only note that i have from that part because it was so quick was great a conference of culty weirdos well and i i wrote down one quote that i thought was funny because michelle says that they're there with
Quote, other families have a lot of similar goals in training our children. Their children. I think the use of the word training is a very interesting choice of words. You usually only hear that with like...
potty training or if they're in any sports but obviously they're training their kids to build their house for them so training's a normal thing for them training huh like not like similar goals and values not similar goals and like but she said similar goals in training yeah children yeah it's weird
So that's just like one of those like little tiny things that just kind of go off in your brain. Yeah. That I'll be paying attention to going forward. And then it ends with her go figure expecting again. Number 16. And then it, um, it ends with like the black screen, like saying Johanna Faith born October 11th, 2005. So. Again, I think that these are kind of added on later on because I think actually the next special we'll be watching covers actually parts of these.
things that they're referencing in this so there's kind of some weird overlap and weird timeline stuff so which is why I'm having to keep such a close eye on the timeline because there is some weird overlapping so it i definitely felt like they added it on at the end um i think it was also maybe they weren't sure if this was going to be anything else wrapping it up kind of yeah and i think it wraps it up and i think they could also
gauge if if they gave you a little bit potentially like would viewers be like no we want more we want more you know what i mean so it was a way to lure viewers back if they were still interested and then also gauge interest in it you know So, yeah, it's kind of, it's really rushed, this weird little odd ending thing. But that's the episode. It's not super riveting. It's very... surface level very quick everything is super fast so not really too much to talk about there but like i said
I was like, remember this, remember that. Now we're going to do a little bit of deep diving of the things that are actually happening behind the scenes around the same time period. So we'll get to that next. Yep. We are going to take one little break and we'll be right back. Alright, so we are back. Before Whitney puts on her swim cap and dives super deep into this, there was a couple things that I kind of made notes of that I think...
for Whitney is just very normal in obviously watching this family throughout all the years. And for me coming to it with fresh, like just a couple of things. So, um, one of the things was the clothing. Obviously they have, Awful, awful tasting clothing. Like you said, the bib dresses and the tights. The hose.
The hoes. I only know that from later on. She says hoes later on, like in different episodes. She's like, are ladies hoes? Anyways, go ahead. So one of the things they said was that the reason they dress that way is because... Clothing is not to draw attention away from their quote countenance, which is their face.
So obviously not wearing anything revealing, not wearing anything kind of like tight and form-fitting. It's just the word countenance is triggering for me. It makes me think of my church. And so it's just like, I hear that word and I just cringe. I'm like, like countenance, like there's certain words you forget about until you hear them again. And that's one of them. I'm like, oh, good God. Yeah.
There are definitely very specific words in a lot of religious vernacular that... are kind of that way where they're just kind of like icky and that's what like that's what i mean by like being able to like dive into stuff later on because like this stuff will come up naturally so then later on it'll be like oh let's talk about some religious stuff because things like this will correct up but yeah no it's ick TMI, too much ick
The other note that I made was about instruments. I used to play an instrument when I was a kid. I was in band all the way through college. I loved it. So anytime you see kids learning how to play an instrument... I love to see it. I think it helps in a lot of like, you know, the development of the brain and kind of helps in like math and kind of reading comprehension and kind of all those things. So I'm on board, but they all play the violin.
So when you have 14 kids that are all playing a violin kind of shittily, so it's like super out of tune. It's not done well. I just feel like it felt very Hitchcockian where it was just a room of creepy kids playing.
instruments at the same time and all i could think of was the psycho violins honestly some of the girls look very malnourished at the time oh yeah like yeah so it's like these malnourished looking kids like playing the violins that they can barely hold up so those are just two kind of funny things the last thing i i brought up was there was a i i'm assuming what it was was a worker at the restaurant
one of those probably tired workers on kids night with all those kids there. Well, I want to find them and send them 20 bucks. Somebody send them an edible arrangement. So... I think they probably didn't want to be on TV because they were wearing like surgical masks. And I just pointed out that it is very funny seeing masks pre-COVID.
Yeah. And it was the, it wasn't the lady that said, Oh, they come here all the time. It was like two of her workers that were in the back and they were like cleaning tables or something. And they were both wearing surgical masks. It was just very odd to see that in a pre COVID world, you know? So those, are just kind of some extra notes that I had made I know Whitney's
chomping at the bit right now to get into kind of some of her deep dive stuff so uh what you got for us so if you remember when i talked about them going out to kids night and ice skating they were with this other family and i about shit my pants when the guy was introduced himself and it was like jim holt because like i said i didn't remember i didn't like file away these types of names of people that just popped up randomly of course right
The only reason it means anything to me now is because Jim Holt's wife, Bobbie, which I would like to point out is spelled B-O-B-Y-E, so I say Bobbie. Isn't that like a subreddit thing now, too? Because I got on there. I'm like, can we all just say that, like, I mean, it's Bobby, right? I mean, it's like Kanye, but Bobby. So Bobby, Bobby, his wife, Bobby, actually testified.
during the trial against Josh Duggar. Oof, juicy. So it was funny now to go back and in the very first special see them pop up when I had no clue. so they even address in in this special that you know so jim holt is saying yeah you know jim bob and i have been friends since the seventh grade blah blah blah blah and they're kind of recounting just like a tiny bit of that and the camera pans over and
you see Josh talking to a girl. And I'm kind of freaking out inside because I know just from base information that Josh had been courting the Holtz daughter. So I'm like, oh my God, is this when he's courting her? Is that her? Like, I don't, you know, or whatever. So I don't know. It could have been her. I'm not sure because I don't know what she looks like or what she looked like at the time. But now going through my timeline.
josh is 16 during the filming of this and so at this point it could have been her in the video, but they were not courting at that point. And do you know why they were no longer courting? Ooh, man, I'm at the edge of my seat. Why? Hit me with it. I'm ready. Josh and their daughter the Holtz daughter had started courting in November of 2002 when they were both 14. So 16 in this it's been about two years. So started courting in November of 2002. March 30, 2003.
Jim Bob called Fabier, Jim, to come over to talk about what Josh had done. So the other thing I found really weird is they're always very specific to say that they gathered in Jim Bob and Michelle's bedroom. Why are you having people in your bedroom? It's weird.
But, you know, their daughter cleans it, so it's ready for company. That's true. Everyone is there. So now that Jana cleaned the room, they can have their company over. Jana, you better do a good job. We got people coming over later. So they had the Holtz over.
And the reason they had them over is because earlier that day, it was brought to their attention that Josh had Jane Doe for... which we know now to be joy remember when they were all sitting around that uh homeschool table you see the oldest is josh and that little girl at the end of the table that's joy and it was while they were reading
Bible stories as she sat in his lap. He was touching her. I probably should have given trigger warning. Everything now in the deep dive is pretty unpleasant. Oh, yeah. Everything is just oof. That had happened that day. So they were calling them over to let them know that this had happened. During this conversation, Josh also admitted to touching the breasts and genitals of three other girls. And just thing to make note of.
Each girl was at least three years younger than him. We now know who all of the people are. He ended up, Tim, you don't know this. He had five victims total. Okay. all family no um that's what i'm getting to is that okay four of them were family one of them is said to be a babysitter and i don't know that that person has ever been revealed which is fine you know obviously we don't They each girl was at least three years younger. That's how from the very beginning we knew Jana wasn't one of them.
Correct. Because she's the oldest daughter. And since then, we found out who everybody is. But at this point, they had the instance that day with the littlest. And he admitted to touching three other girls. Then they also find out that there was a previous instance in February of 2002.
Remember, their daughter started courting him in November of 2002. In February of 2002, he was touching a girl and she told the parents, and then he confessed it's not a confession if somebody is telling on you and that is a theme going forward that drives me nuts they always say he confessed when he doesn't confess he gets caught correct and that drives me insane obviously the issue
is that saying that you confessed is like, okay, they realized they did something wrong and are admitting it to somebody. That's not the case. He got caught and that's the only reason there's any sort of explanation going on. So the problem here is they know at this point it is a pattern of behavior. Yeah. They already knew that it happened a year prior. in february of 2002 and then now it has just happened again march 2003 and so now is when the courtship is called off because of this this is
There's a very distinct pattern of behavior there. So right after this, Josh is sent away to the Institute of Basic Life Principles Training Center in Little Rock. Now, can I ask real quick? Sure. So was he sent to this place? as like uh you have a bad kid you'll send him to boarding school kind of thing so what did they send him there because these things were happening or is it normal in their religion to like send them to that consider like treatment so this is like
Praying the gay way. Well, in a sense. Yeah. So while he's there, his treatment consisted of manual labor and intense prayer. Great. Hitting hard at both ends. Ready for this one? He received lust counseling. I could go for a little lust counseling right now. He received lust counseling, which Michelle later admitted in a police report that the counselor was not certified. We know. Thank you. We know, Michelle.
Can I ask how one does get certified in lust counseling? I might need to change my major. So their reasoning for sending him here was because they didn't want him exposed to other offenders and other things that they didn't possibly want him exposed to. So sending him here they thought was the best bet. Move the problem away. Please keep this in mind. Ooh. Okay. So that's kind of the counseling portion of it.
It was the two parts to this manual labor and then intense prayer and then this counseling, blah, blah, blah. Lust counseling. Lust counseling. The labor portion of his treatment plan. was that he participated in the Integrity Construction Institute program. They love the word fucking institute. It's in fucking everything. Integrity Construction Institute program.
There he learned carpentry and he helped with renovations of a former hospital that was being renovated by this cult. We'll get into what IBLP is later on, but this is like part of their... religion type cult thing so yeah they're like um we're gonna call it treatment and you're gonna fucking rebuild this you're gonna renovate this building for us like it's it's free labor for that if you look at the over the arc here
is free labor in all ways. Just have a bunch of kids. Need your laundry done? Have a couple extra kids. So he was there until July 17th, 2003. So he left right after this initially happened, March 30th, and he was there until about July 17th. Then also in July, which I'm assuming is after he left there and was coming home. That's kind of my assumption at this point. They had Josh confess to an Arkansas state trooper who gave him a quote.
very stern talking to and the trooper said that because he'd already been put through a program that there was really nothing else to do how do you feel about that i mean it's bullshit because it makes you wonder like Was this a real state trooper? Was it one of your Jim Bob's creepy friends dressed as a state trooper? Because for somebody who... is admitting to any sort of sexual crime and especially involving very very young children like there seems to be a lack of care
if that was what actually happened you know what i mean and that's why i'm like okay was this person in your religion so that's why they're like oh it's good so i didn't i was gonna wait and see if you like he went to lust counseling how deep we would get into this
Um, cause here's the thing about the, the state trooper. Oh God, there's, you, you got tea about the state trooper? Uh, but we'll, we'll get to that. We'll get to that later. So we're going to fast forward again. So that was July where he gets a stern talking to. after he gets home from that treatment center and so now we're fast forwarding to early 2005 and then in january through april of that year so this is if you remember
The special that we're watching, like at the very end portion, I guesstimated that it was about May 2005 that it got fast forward to because Jackson was now a year old, correct? Correct. So from January through April of that year.
josh was sent to stay with the holts in little rock so he came home just in time to then basically start filming those little scenes again wow so the he went to go stay with the holts because the holts offered to help josh unburden himself of any temptations he wanted to confess so obviously there were still problems and things happening
and so they sent they were like we'll take him on and you know it's funny because at this point he's not courting their daughter anymore they've heard these horrific things he's done so it's actually really amazing to me that's like hey just come here But we're going to help you. Was it because all their kids were a little bit older?
Actually, I did look into it. Apparently he wasn't directly in their house. He was on a property on their property. So at least he was a little bit separated. So they stuck him in a shack in their yard? It was during this time while he was staying with them that Josh actually confessed more details to Bobby. Bobby. So regarding that March 30th incident that initially, you know.
had them called over to their bedroom she very much understood like he just like touched jane doe right for while she was sitting on his lap so this is from bobby's testimony in the actual trial that this is her actual her actual quote She said when she was sitting on his lap, he put his hand under her pantaloons and under her panties. He touched her inside and out. so the reason this affected her so deeply is and you'll see going forward there is such a pattern of downplay
Talking about things being over the clothes, over the clothes. They didn't, they were asleep. They were blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because that makes it so much better. It makes it better, right? But you could tell, like, and, you know, I think Bobby's. bullshit as a like she's got some crazy beliefs still and whatever but like even just reading her testimony because we couldn't see it because it was a federal
you know, case, so there's no cameras. But I felt like when you were reading her testimony, you were like, ooh, this got her, you know? Like, you could tell it was like, oh, this is way worse than... than she originally knew it's still bad but like these people thought like oh he just kind of like touched some stuff and it's like no he was penetrating her like and I think that's kind of the you know regardless of kind of
beliefs are like you said them downplaying stuff like there's that factor of oh i should have known or i should have done something more or you know what i mean so regardless of whether we think she's a great person or not like there definitely is still that like I could have done something. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, it's not.
It's guilt. Like it's guilt over the fact that like I didn't take this seriously enough. You know what I mean? Yep. During this time Josh also told Bobby that he went up to one of the girls and I'm quoting Bobby again.
he went up to one of the girls as she was sleeping and got up under her blanket to start touching her and she woke up and hit him he told me she snitched on him like i read that and like the word snitched like instantly just like pinged in my brain yeah because number one you're such an asshole if you're saying that like you just molested somebody and it's like they snitched on me first of all and then second of all
You're going to have to keep this, and I will bring this up way down the road. The funny thing with these rewatches is it is pinging my brain of stuff that I didn't even remember I knew, you know? Yeah, because at the time they weren't... maybe super important details and then you went oh and then now like when i read that i'm like oh fuck so this will yeah this will surface again later
Well, it feels super gaslighty, too, because it's that downplaying thing. Why was it doing anything? The onus is on... her on the victim yeah for snitching for snitching yeah like it's their fault no you once again kind of got caught doing something shitty and but you're gonna downplay it that way yep you're the victim
they're not the victim you know bobby says in the in her testimony that she after he you know gave more details and she really realized like wow this is even worse than i thought she tried to tell the duggars but they Didn't want to hear it is what she said. So that's shitty. They're shitty. Oh.
In a later interview, Jim, Bob, and Michelle said that they thought the issue had been resolved so they felt he could be allowed to re-enter their home. Which to me is, oh, we have camera crews coming next month. Yeah. He can come home now. Yeah.
but you see you see that through all of it though like we're gonna we're gonna do this half-ass attempt at like sending him away to a thing that's not going to help him it's not going to solve anything you know what i mean but it's that like well we tried to do something about it well we have camera crews coming well we sent him to live with his other family well we're you know what i mean
yeah and the funny part is you know you we only know things down the road and we only know you know certain things through sleuthing like whatever but in this little added on attachment year you know year later part that's in 2005 So they initially started filming after they already knew that he's done this twice because he's already broken off his courtship. I mean, this was two years earlier that this all came out to the holes. And now, so you're deciding to do this filming.
With that already having happened twice. That you know of. It's ballsy. And then it's funny that like in that in between is when they sent him away to the Holtz and everything. And then they resumed filming again. Yeah. And obviously this is going to go on because they end up having a show for 4,000 years. So.
It's just wild to me that you're like, oh, we have this going on, but we'll film a TV show. Right. Like, it's crazy. And what's even funnier is in that little added on, tacked on portion at the end in 2005, do you remember me pausing and going, like... a scene when they're moving and it's like everybody's eating yeah and i paused it because josh has buzzed hair yeah that is punishment in their like air like they they buzz
boy's hair when they're as punishment so that was you know like he's coming home from that like he'd had buzzed hair as part of it like there's various times that he what like when he'd get caught with porn again that they would buzz his hair and like things like that so it was just funny to actually see it on the screen and be like oh my god so something had just happened wow see that's see that's that weird thing where it's
That's very behind the scenes because you just be like, oh, it's hot. But in that arena. that's interesting to watch that like now because we have had this conversation now i'm going to be looking for those things and even though i will not have the perspective of what was going on at that time and who was talking to who and who was doing this i'm going
and I'm going to ones like you said, that's going to ping in my brain and go, okay, something else must have happened in that time frame. Yeah, it changes everything. Yeah, it's totally different the second time around or, you know. once you just know this information everything changes correct so the next thing i'm going to get into is like major trigger warning for people just because of things that are described and whatnot sexually so that affects you
That's going to be super bothersome to you. You might want to stop listening. We're going to go back to that officer that they took Josh to. That he got, you know, the stern talking to. He got the finger wag. So this officer was... Joseph Truman Hutchins on in January 2007. So this is you know like about four years after this talk with Josh. He pled guilty to eight felony counts of possession of.
Then, of course, what I read was child porn. I know better now that you call it child sex abuse material because porn is a... connotation with something that's kind of consensual yes so don't say child porn we say child sex abuse material and um yeah so he pled guilty to eight felony counts That was the person that gave him a stern talking to about what he was doing. Oof. A little bit about this man. He had a Yahoo adult profile, which I had no idea that that's a thing.
I have no idea. Like a dating app kind of thing? I have no idea. It just says Yahoo adult profile. And I Googled it and I'm like, maybe I don't want to know. Maybe I shouldn't search for this on my computer. So whatever that is, his profile name was DadsLove2002. Ick. Ick. L-U-V Love2002. Ick. His categories of interest included... preschool, kinky kids, strangers with candy, and family affairs. Holy cow. Yeah.
At one point, he role-played with a woman where he asked her to pretend that she was a little girl having sex with her daddy. Oh, man. So he's a sick fuck. No thank you. His other interests listed on the profile, this is disgusting, included, other interests included putting fat objects into small holes. Ew. So...
Let's remind you that they sent him to this treatment center because they didn't want him exposed to other offenders. And then promptly, as soon as he got back, the person that gave him the stern talking to... Is an abuser as well. Was also an offender, yeah. Yes. So, just the irony between... Of all of this is... My God. So... That was January 2007 that he pled guilty. He was released in 2010. But then shortly after, he was arrested again because of a parole violation and like his...
They found, I don't know if, I'm not really sure. I couldn't find details on whether or not the parole violation was finding porn or if there was some other violation and then they found the material, like they found stuff again in his house. Yeah. I'm not sure what. it was but ultimately they found material again and this time he was charged with four counts of distribution and possession um
So he was charged as a habitual offender, and he was sentenced to 56 years in prison. So there was way more. I mean, there's so much more on him. I almost feel like at some point when there might be a lull. Do an episode on him. Yeah. If there's a lull at some point.
where there's too much paintballing going on um in an episode or they're like ice blocking down you know whatever there there might be an opportunity to do a little more of a dive on him because i could i could really go into that for a while but i just really wanted to point out what was happening the state trooper was a piece of crap too
what was happening behind the scenes while they're filming this where it falls in the timeline and how these obscure characters that characters i say that was air quotes yeah but like are you know these characters are popping up without ever realizing and you're like oh my god it means so much more now correct so um yeah i think that's kind of sums it up i think that's where i'm going to leave that for today because there's so much more to talk about later
Absolutely. So we, man, and this is kind of something that I appreciate, but it's also kind of fun to watch at times is like when Whitney's interested in something. She will dissect that thing and get into the microscopic level of details and things. So I think...
almost every woman is into true crime. And I feel like it kind of comes from that where like you see those things. Absolutely. You know, so my kind obsession right now is the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard thing. And I'm like diving into that. Like you wouldn't believe. I always need to dive. That's also one of her favorite things in the Olympics. Ironic. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online.
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We are going to take one more break and we will come out and kind of get our last thoughts on this first special. So we will see you in a bit. Thank you so much for joining us for this first episode of...
digging up the Duggars. We are... obviously if you're here you're listening to us on either spotify or anchor so we would love if you could head over to the page for digging up the duggars and give us a rate give us a review we'd love for you guys to share kind of out there um this is kind of our first time doing this so We would love to have you guys kind of share this if you enjoyed what we did here. And now is where I'm going to listen back to this and cringe.
repeatedly and then never want to do it ever again because of the number of times I said um or you heard me mouth breathing or anything like that and then I'll talk her out of it and then we'll do episode two yeah so that's the plan um the other thing you can do I just said um God damn it. Shit. What do you say without saying um? Anyways. There you go. Please follow us on Instagram. We also have an Instagram account. It is digging up the Duggars pod.
Hopefully you can spell digging up and the. And Duggars is spelled D-U-G-G-A-R-S. And then pod, P-O-D. Go follow us over there. Eventually when we get around to it, we're going to be doing some other stuff on there too. thinking of doing some cook-alongs of some of the Duggar recipes and things of that nature. So there will be other things besides just little episode snippets. Eventually, we're going to get the gram going pretty good. That's the plan.
So thank you so much for joining us. I know just in my time as the person that had no experience with this family, I learned a lot. I learned some interesting things. I learned some horrifying things. So hopefully you all did too. And we will see you. Our next episode, we're going to be exploring the next special, and we're going to do it separate. So what do you think? Yep, so signing out. We'll see you next time.