Difference Makers Discuss Live - Breaking Barriers in Finance: Asma Shahbaz’s Journey to Success as a Chartered Accountant

Asma is an experienced member specialising in the governance and risk space , particularly in financial services arena .

She's held roles in Standard Chartered Bank , has also been head of risk and reporting and analytics at Habib Bank , which is the largest bank in Pakistan , but currently she is head of process governance and business ops risk in Mashreq , which is a digital innovator bank . So you know a lot of different employers there .

But , asma , I want to pass over to you now . You're very welcome and thank you for taking the time to talk to us today . Do you want to fill in the gaps for us there ?

I kind of gave a very , very potted history of your last few roles , but I know there's been a lot from the day that you decided to be a charged accountant and how you got to where you are today .

I think it was , um , it was , you know , really back in school . I remember , and you know , my , my uncle , my mom's brother , mentioned that you know , a friend is a chartered accountant and he's doing very well and like that .

So my decision really was driven by the fact that , oh , I mean , you qualify and you become independent very soon and , you know , financially independent very soon and you know you'll get paid well .

So that was , I'll be very honest , the very first uh reason why I , you know , instantly decided okay , this is what I want to do , uh , and from then on , you know , you know , just did my uh intermediate and all of that and got into an accountancy school and all of that and uh , so , whether it was , you know , a lot of hard work that I had put in , I

mean , I did probably put in a bit of hard work , but my mother's support , and you know , I think , and I did get lucky , and that I would say , with my mother's prayers definitely , that it didn't , alhamdulillah , take me very long , because you know I had heard that people grow old doing chartered accountancy and you know there's a very little passing percentage

and all of that . But I did qualify at , you know , as young as 22 years old and you know that .

So I mean , and there were times in between when a lot of my batch mates were leaving and they were pursuing , you know , graduate , like , you know , bbas , and you know they were moving into business management and ACC , and all of that because of the fear that you know , if they , if they fail , they won't be able to , kind of , you know , take that and all

of that . So there was a time and I also changed my mind and you know that was the time that I got support from my , my uncle , that you know you have to have believe in yourself . What do you mean ? You're not going to be able to do it . So , um , yeah , so , a lot of um , I think , uh , faith in yourself , uh , family support and all of that .

Uh , you know I crossed that , uh , you know I , you know , took over that fear and moved on and alhamdulillah , you know , uh , you know god was very kind that I was able to finish it in time .

I did my articles from PwC in Pakistan and after that , so that was the era , you know , when I was looking at external audits and auditing a lot of different banks and financial institutions and in between you know , some very interesting clients , which is like biscuit manufacturing and like those . Then I moved into uh . Then I moved into industry .

Uh , I had mainly because I had been associated with the financial services industry . So I my first job in the in the industry was with a multinational bank , uh , in pakistan , in the internal audit function .

And though internal audit sounds like you know this is also audit and you know I had been doing external audit sounds like you know this is also audit and you know I had been doing external .

But there was , you know , quite quite a bit of uh difference , I would say , between the two worlds because , uh , as a , as an external auditor , we were really , you know , number crunchers uh , but in internal audit you really have to see , you know , um , how are the controls working , and you know you're more focused on that .

So that was , you know , huge learning . I was part of the internal function for like five , six years around five years I would and then came a time so I'll talk about that break later but that came .

There came a time when I took a break of a couple of years when I had with my elder one so he had turned three at that time but , yeah , that was the time I decided to take a break . Then , you know , I my next role was , as you mentioned was one of the biggest banks in Pakistan . It was Habib Bank .

I spent two years there , but they were very rewarding years . I got the opportunity to lead a very big project and it was . I think it added a lot to my experience . And , yeah , so currently I'm with Mashreq Bank and so this is now the first line role .

So it's been a lot of learning all throughout , from being an external auditor to being third line of defense and then becoming a second line of defense .

So congratulations , um , as my , you mentioned your family there quite a bit your uncle and and , and your mother , they they obviously are are big influences in your life and and is you know ? Is that something that is is is usual in pakistan , or is is ? Are you , are you very different in that regard ?

Or if that support is not there , I have now I see a lot of , uh , children , you know , who are kind of taking that initiative and even when they don't have the support , but I think the support , having the right kind of support , is very , very important and I do see , like around me , like you know , even families who are not very educated themselves , or

the mothers who are not very educated themselves , they are now being big sponsors for their children . So , yeah , that is something that I do see , you know quite a bit around me and it's not something very uncommon . You know quite a bit around me and it's not something very uncommon .

But , yeah , there are , but they would be probably , you know there would be regions or you know some some , you can say backgrounds , where probably , you know , the education is not kind of supported that much .

But yeah , in the city where we kind of operate out of , yes , it's very common that women do get the support or the children do get the support of their parents , or , yes , it's very common that women do get the support or the children do get the support of their parents or their families when they're trying to pursue any education .

But if the question is specifically for chartered accountancy , I would say that there is a bit of a , I would say there is a bit of a hesitation that comes in that , oh , it will take so much time and especially in case of women you know , girls it's like , oh , you know , by the time you will be of the age where you need to get married .

What if you're still , you know , kind of studying and like that . So I think that has been a factor . I have seen women giving up , you know , their studies , but I have , you know , also seen women who have continued their education even after getting married and even after having kids .

So I mean , so I have seen , you know a lot of families encouraging their daughters their sons for that matter to come into childhood accountancy .

It's something that is really dear to me to ensure that there is that ability to be able to do both , whether you're a male or a female , have a family and have a very successful career , and it's something that , the more I speak to the global difference makers in this , these podcasts . It is something that charged accountancy offers .

Um , so long long may that continue . And and and and . May we be good ambassadors for that . Um , as my just picking up a little bit about your career there . So you trained in external audit and then you did the flip into internal audit .

It's always a a trajectory that I'm interested in because , you know , whilst they're same name , they're very different cousins , aren't they ? I mean , what would you ? What would you ? What would you see as the learnings that you got from both ?

And even so , in external audits as well and a lot of you can probably relate to that that you know we do have to do test of controls . There was this thing that you had to do , but I think the focus was just really , I mean , I feel that you know it was kind of a tick box exercise .

I'm not saying that we were not doing it , but probably not with that rigor that we do in internal audit and in it when , like moving into it , like I just saw the , the beauty of external audits was that you know I would go in , I would go look at the financials of different companies and I would have to understand their businesses and you know , kind of

try to make sense of , okay , what's generating revenue and what's driving the cost and all of that , but and similar . So , but for internal audit , I think that learning started becoming where you are understanding these businesses , not to understand the numbers but to understand what kind of risks can be there . That can you know .

That can make things go , you know , south , although you know they're both called audit , as you're mentioning Sinead , but yeah , they're completely . I would say they're completely different worlds .

To be very honest , I mean having that mindset of okay , if you know you need to have a , what kind of risk you know are there in the business , so for that you have to understand the goals of the business or the function , what's the purpose of that function , and you know , hinder uh that function from achieving that uh goal or that objective .

Uh , so it's , yeah , so it's a very different lens . I would completely agree with that .

So , and you know that that's always a uh , a kind of a battle also that you know , even in external and internal audits , we always used to hear that you know , you guys know nothing . We are the ones who train you . We tell you know what we do and you come and you audit us . So but I always then you know , I got very used to it .

I was like , but that's that's how it works , right , that's our job . Uh , you know , I got very into it . I was like , but that's how it works , right , that's our job .

You know , we'll take information from you , understand what all you do and try to tell you know what is doing as per the procedures , policies , and you know what's not going as per as it should be going . So , yeah , I think that's a great place to start your career , from you get to , I mean even an internal audit .

I was lucky enough to have audited , you know , areas of retail banking , areas of corporate banking , so it really gives you a full spectrum . I can say Mm-hmm , brilliant , brilliant .

Talk to me a little bit about that role and you know what you liked about it and what you learned .

kept increasing year by year , only kind of emphasizing on the fact how you have to become more efficient and you know , and do audits more smartly .

And that's not only true for for audits , that's very true for , um , you know , for any governance function , any second line function , even any , I think , first line function , uh , so , yes , so my , my , my role at uh , hbl , uh , I was hired for the role of , uh , you know , risk reporting and analytics and you know it really .

So before that I thought , you know , I , I , I had done a few uh cats and all of that , but that was really uh , it opened up my eyes to a , to a much bigger universe , right ? So , uh , you know why . Why is it so important ? Uh , why is the quality of data so much important ?

I mean , we , we as traditional , you know , conventional auditors , we would , you know , pick up a sample of 30 , you know 25 , 30 transactions and review them , and you know if we are , you know , even more curious or you know to know more . We would probably pick up a sample of 5 , 10 more and like that . But analytics really kind of opens up another .

You know the whole world to you . I mean , you don't have to now look at just a sample of 20 , 30 , 40 , you can actually learn about the whole population . So you , you know , you kind of pivot , you know different aspects of data and you can see that . You know , you know what all is going wrong .

So that , really , I think it's a , it's an excellent um . It can be used as an excellent risk management tool . Uh , so , and you know , I would so even like um in any job , like whatever you're doing , uh , today , I think there there is a big role that analytics can play .

Uh , how it can really , I think , empower you information , and then it's up to you you know that , what kind of actions you're taking , but it really it gives you the power of knowledge that you know . Okay , so this is your portfolio and all this is you know what's green , all this is what's red , you know so what's working .

What's red , you know so what's working , what's not working on the on the whole , uh , you know , uh , on the whole population , rather than just a very selected sample that we have always been . You know , uh , doing as you know , trainees and all of that , or even , uh , you know , during my tenure as an internal auditor .

So , I think , analytics , so that way , yes , I'm , I think I'm a big supporter of you know , using analytical tools and you know having dashboards , and I think that's a very good management tool as well .

Uh , I think they understand numbers , right , uh , but the tools that you have to use for , you know , data analytics , that is something which I feel is definitely you know , till the time I was in touch , you know , with academics , it was very much missing is taking a lot of steps to kind of , you know , introduce these courses , these diplomas , where the

students can , you know , enroll and learn more , you know , and kind of become experts even at data analytics .

So , you know , a lot of appreciation for what ICAP is doing , but definitely , I think we need to look at and probably they already are looking at it , you know , pardon , my , you know , lack of information there , but definitely I think this is one area that needs to be incorporated in the curriculum for sure .

So , you know , I do think we need to keep that and keep those skills to the fore . We need to keep that and keep those skills to the fore . Asma , when we talked previously , just as we were kind of preparing for this podcast , you mentioned to me , you know , the importance of building relationships .

So , going on the complete other side of the fence of interpreting data , the importance of building relationships and managing stakeholders , relationships and and and managing stakeholders and I know you've got some quite you know , um , strong views on on how that is maybe different for males and different for females um , can you , can you share a little bit with us

about that ?

Uh , I think that is that is one thing that I have learned is absolutely important , uh , you know , for for any professional , I mean , uh , so , so , as , uh , you know , so , thinking uh , from the point of view of uh , of a trainee who joins the , who joins an audit firm and , you know , starts auditing and tells the client that , okay , I need this

information and information , and you know , and like that , and if they don't get the information , then they are like escalating it , hey dear , like so and so I've not received the information , back and forth of emails and all of that , and I think that's also fine .

You know , somebody has to get the job done , but the point being that you know you get the work done in the best possible way when you have a good rapport with the people who you're working with . I think there are absolutely no two ways about

it . And , as you , you know , as you become , you know , senior and or , if you want to , kind of progress and , you know , become a leader . I think that's one quality that for sure you need to have .

You know , which is to , you know , be able to engage with all sorts of stakeholders and be able to , you know , sit with all sorts of people and sort out an issue . And you know that will only happen if you kind of , if you kind of , you know just appreciate that .

You know so , even when you are having a conflict with somebody , you know just appreciate that you know so , even when you are having a conflict with somebody , you know just keep the doors open and , you know , keep the conversations going .

And I think so , as I think , naturally , when you are an auditor and I don't know I might be wrong there , but I think you're more in the phase where you're like , okay , I need this information and you know you're going to give it to me . But there are many . So when you move so you don't not everybody always remains an auditor .

All the chartered accountants , you know they move into different positions in finance and risk and , you know , in audits , even in the organizations . But you have to kind of , I think , understand that people will .

But people will kind of support you when they see you as you know , somebody that they can talk to or who understands their problem , and that only happens when you have a good . I think you are emotionally intelligent , you know you , you have that emotional quotient .

So I think that is , uh , very , very important and , uh , you know , just , uh , you know my views on , uh , how you mentioned how is it different for men and for women .

So I think , so that's very , uh , that's very , that's a cultural thing , uh , maybe , but I think for women , uh , sometimes we do that , you know , you know I cannot talk to a male colleague , for example , very friendly and especially , you know , when you are very or very early on in your career , when you're very , very young and you think that you know , okay

, and this is I'm talking more culturally you know , and I hope that you know , females or the , you know CS students who are watching from who you know are from Pakistan , who are watching from who you know are from Pakistan or this region .

They , they can probably take something positive out of this is that you know they're mostly afraid of , you know , kind of , you know , talking to the male colleagues or having , you know , having that kind of a professional relationship where you know they would , you know they can rely on somebody else to be helping them . So I , you know they would .

You know , they can rely on somebody else to be helping them . So I , you know that that is something that I've learned . It's okay , it's actually , it benefits you and one shouldn't be afraid , I mean , of having a good professional relationship with a male and a female .

But , you know , don't be afraid of that , although in our culture it's a bit difficult and there there can be , you know , I think women are much more afraid that . You know , if you know the people , can , you know , start saying , okay , this person is a little too friendly , and all of that .

But I mean , that is something that you have to , I , I think , put aside and I think Sinead , as we discussed another discussion was around I mean , probably , you know , be in touch with people who you know you share values with , and not with people who are always , you know , kind of ready to take you down over one thing or the other .

That is also , I think , very , very important and I think so . And if you want to progress , you know , whether you're , I think , male or a female , but I think females are a little bit more , you know , they're a bit more sensitive . I would say that's at least that's how I have been and I've seen a lot of my friends being like that .

So you know you have to have a very thick skin and , you know , be very focused . You know this is what I want and you know this is the way I need to go about to get to my goal .

So I think it's very important to surround yourself with people who you know , add to your energy , who add to your , you know , basically , aspiration , rather than taking anything away from it .

Uh , so I think for so , um , as long as you know that your direction is right , I think don't shy away just because somebody oh , you know people will what , will people say .

I think that's that's something that women should start thinking less and less off , because I think it's more in your own head than anything else and it only takes away from your , from your , I think , aspiration and from your own the fire that you have inside .

I think the first thing is the importance of a relationship , in that you know , being a charged accountant or being an effective professional and an effective professional in whatever you do is not just about the output , it's not just about the deliverable , it's about how you do it and those relationships that you make along the way .

I think the second thing that I took from you there , which which I love , is surround yourself , or try and surround yourself as much as possible with people who you have shared values with , um , and I think that's that , that , that , that that's profound and also positive people , because I , you know , I know you feel that negative people bring you down , um .

And then the third thing that I heard , which I think is really important , is um and I might unpick this a little bit is have a thick skin , um , so , you know , that's about , about resilience , that's about um , again , maybe surround yourself with the positive people , but , uh , you know , uh , having a thick skin is , is maybe something that comes with experience

, with maturity .

No-transcript .

So as long as you know that what you're doing is right , just you know , have faith in yourself and carry on .

Then , moving on to another multinational bank , you know you get to learn a lot , I think , when you're working with a global name , you know .

Moving to Habib Bank , again , I think it was a very good decision because , being the largest bank in Pakistan , I think I learned a lot of things that probably , you know , you couldn't have learned in a , in a , you know , bank or or an organization which is much smaller in size , and the and the things and you , you can , you know kind of , you know , apply

your learnings . I got the chance to apply my learnings there . Move to my current organization . I think it was simply driven by the fact that they were bringing something which is organization .

I think it was simply driven by the fact that , uh , they were bringing something which is uh , which is new to the market , and I would never want to miss the chance to , you know , be part of something which is being created , which is uh , which is innovative , which is exciting , and it it like , was , it was like an invitation to learning a lot of new

things , and that I think that was simply uh , you know what convinced me instantly uh to you know , uh , kind of come on board so it's that creative side of your brain and you .

Man , I know you're busy , you're , you're a mom , you've got a lot going on . Um , what , what do you ? What do you do to relax , or do you get time to relax ?

So , you know , I I try to balance everything out , uh , by you know allocating uh time slots to different things . So , yes , as you mentioned , I've got two , you know , beautiful sons , and you know they . You know they're very difficult to handle sometimes as well . I'm going to be completely honest , but I think that's all part of the game .

So I , I do like to kind of I'm into fitness a bit , and so I enjoy my walk , you know , in the evening , so I don't want to miss it , no matter what happens , and that's that's also , I think , part of the fact that I like to stay disciplined , and you know that is , that is something that I enjoy .

During COVID I learned how to paint , so that is that is one thing that you know I like to do .

I , now , I , you know , seldom get a chance to do that , but yeah , even if I finish one or two paintings a year , I'm very happy and I think it's very , very important to have , you know , some hobbies or some interests or to have some way of , I think , relaxing your mind because of some interest , or to have some way of , I think , relaxing your mind

because , even so , there were times in my career where , you know , it was all work , work , work and nothing else . But I think , and those were the times when I was very , I think that was most stressed time of my life . And now when I look back and at that time you feel that , oh god , this job is so difficult and you know , you know all that .

But I think as you mature you kind of also learn to how how to you know kind of manage your time in a better way . And now I can't even think of you know kind of spending a day without having that time when I can actually unwind . But I do understand it's a luxury .

You know , I know many people who you know struggle a lot , especially women , because I think we take a lot more , we take responsibilities for a lot more things than we have to . You know , as we try to overcompensate Many of my friends , I know . You know , as we try to overcompensate many of my friends . I know we try to overcompensate a lot .

So I think it's okay to be a bit , you know , kind to yourself and you know things do get , you know , kind of off track and sometimes it's okay , you know , even in your , in your personal life . So it's really a it's , it's really a balancing act .

Someday there will be days when you will be more spending more time , uh , on your official commitments and you know you won't have much time for your personal life .

I think it's crucial that that we all take time for ourselves , whether that is , as you say , a walk or a sit and read the book or a , whatever you may do . But but , yeah , I get it . Sometimes we get so wound up in our own , our own busy lives that it's hard to do .

But I think , look , that's another takeaway from from this chat that I think is really important for um , for people . Um , I don't want to delve too much into , into , you know , kind of the look forward , but anything , anything in your goals or life plan that you can share with us , that that maybe is an aim you want to , you want to tick off .

So you know , last year I gave myself a target that you know I will learn how to swim . And you know , although very , it's very late , uh , you know , at this age , uh , that I'm , I , I had this uh kind of um , you can say target , but yeah , so I so , yeah , so it was , um , so it's something , I think .

On a personal level also , I , I do keep a , you know , some challenge , uh , for myself that you know this is something that I've not done , uh , and I would like to do that uh .

Similarly , when you said this recent move of mine , uh , that I made , uh , you know , career-wise also , that was also like a challenge that you know that that is something that I had not done before , you know , becoming part of a team which is planning to launch a digital bank .

So you know every year that there has to be some challenge , you know , you , I , I would like to do something that I've not done before For this year .

I think it's too early to say , and I don't want to jinx it , because already I think there are certain challenges around that but yes , I do have plans , uh , at least at a personal level , uh , that you know I would like to achieve , other than the professional plans . Uh , you know that my organization has that , though .

You know that those I definitely have , uh , but yeah , uh , yeah brilliant , brilliant .

Uh , so that that is still there .

That's fabulous , um , as my I have thoroughly enjoyed talking to you brought you brought to the chat a different lens um from our other , our other discussions

. Um , you know very much the the focus on on financial services , very much the focus on on governance and risk , but your authenticity shines through and you know the the thank you for being so honest about about the networking piece , about building relationships um , and about your , your personal goals . Um .

definitely are an inspiration uh for for many of us . So really , thanks a lot . I think it's very important for uh I'm I think you know I'm making it a bit more centric on women , maybe because it's , you know , 8th of march also today , but really I do believe a lot in uh kind of empowering each other .

Uh , and you know , women like you are definitely an inspiration .

This is number five in a series of seven difference makers podcasts and I look forward to welcome welcoming you to the next two , which will finish off the series . Thank you very much and goodbye .