Bonus Difference Makers Discuss 2 - Difference Makers Round-table discussion

back to both of you. Just looking at the time, we have just over 15 minutes to go through a bit of a round table and and pull questions from the audience. So please keep your questions coming through. But to kick us off, I think let's talk a bit about equality, diversity and inclusion initiatives, because I think we can all agree that they are a good thing. But in the same way that diversity doesn't always equal inclusion. Inclusion doesn't always equal

equality. So I think my question to the two of you is, to what extent do you see that we maybe have increased diversity and inclusion of certain groups, but that doesn't always equate to fairness and equality? And, Vincent, I'm going to kick off with with you first. And then Carolyn, we great to hear from you. I think I think it's it? I think it's great question. And it's one that I think about often.

And I think that within, within the accounting profession or within other professional services organisations are commonly in use, rightfully so we work really hard on improving diversity within their organisations. But typically, what I find that looks like is an increased diversity at entry level. And those those individuals still aren't making it through to the senior management positions. And we have higher attrition rates amongst African minorities, and amongst other under other

underrepresented groups. So I do feel that we have come some of the way our journey but we still have so much more to do to get true equality and what true equality and equity would look like, would mean that there were no barriers for people from any group with the right talent, felt that they wanted to get to the senior positions in the organisation. There shouldn't be

any barriers for them. And unfortunately, at the moment, we still don't have that activity, we are working quite quickly towards it. Yeah, absolutely. Agree with offensiveness and I suppose I might just draw back on the experiences from Saudi Arabia, just when when looking at the

whole concept of equality. So I mentioned and just some statistics that we look at the gender equality rankings, regardless of all of the progress that has been made, and as regards the inclusion, the diversity and inclusion of women in the workplace, they're still ranked at 147 out of 156. So there is still a very, very long way to go. But I suppose where I would see real hope in that is the progress that has been made, and even a very short length of

time. And when you have a willingness to move to or forward with this agenda, it is amazing what can happen. And as I said, just to draw on some of them the points that I haven't mentioned about Saudi at this point, for example, and many of you may be aware of them, there was huge media reports about it in 2018, when women were allowed to drive and again, while you know, people can look at this in quite a negative way, and say, you know, it's, it's 2018. And it's only no people and like

women are allowed to drive. But that is huge progress for the country. Because again, it's culturally very, very different. And as I said, but that progress, it is progress, and it's all going in the right direction. Equally when I wouldn't went out there initially in 2013, and we would went out to visit companies because again, we were looking for different placements for our students, we would go into a different section of the organisation. So there'll be a women's section and a male

section. And again, it was while there was inclusion of women in the workplace, there was still segregation and there wasn't equality. Again, you move on a number of years, that is now not the norm in Saudi Arabia to have that level of segregation within the workplace. And there's much more integration. And a lot of the time if women want to work within groups of women, that is there a choice. And I think that is a real, that's the real key there when it's choice, it's

completely different. And as I said, if we are going to move towards equality by again, with the example of Saudi, there's still a lot of progress to be made. But a lot of progress has been made. And I think that is to me a really source of encouragement.

Thanks both for sharing and I think, you know, it's something that we can all take with us as when we do see kind of these initiatives in our, in our businesses to really hold leadership accountable to you know, to say there is a difference between inclusion and true equality. So I think you've both given good examples to where it does and doesn't happen and always important to kind of stand up for it. Something that we haven't really touched on in the in the show is is racial

discrimination. So I AMISOM, Carolina, I'm going to start with you. And really ask you, whether you feel that race is still a factor in exclusion of people in in the business and finance sector in specific. And feel free to touch on your experience in the various countries as well. Absolutely. So this was, again, it's something that because of my experiences in Saudi Arabia, again, my eyes have been opened up to, I suppose, then this whole concept of, as you say, its diversity, inclusion and

equality. And as a result in a role of as a researcher, as well as something that I have started to look at a lot of from a research perspective. And interestingly, I came across a McKinsey Report, it's quite recent, it's only in the last year. And it actually outlines that while a lot of progress has been made, and particularly they were focusing on the financial services sector, they specifically outlined that a lot of progress still needs to be

made. And there isn't equal representation of people from different backgrounds in the sector, and then recalling for people across all types of organisations to keep this at the forefront of their agenda, it needs to remain a business priority, because in order for us to actually make the progress that we need, it needs to remain there. So I suppose from my experience on this, aside from looking at from a research perspective, I think there is still a long way to go on this.

But again, I will be quite encouraged by looking at the progress that has been made and to date. And I would agree that progress has been made with it, there is still a significant amount to do, I think that I look at the accounting firms, looking at the top 10. Within the UK, as an example, I think you could probably count on two hands, the number of black partners across festival services in general.

And that's what I'm saying that we were, we are making progress, I feel like entry level or maybe mid manager level. But we still haven't seen the strides that we need to see at partner level, which is fundamentally important. So I do believe that there are still barriers to exist. And one of those barriers is reached. And one of the barriers is unconscious bias.

But I do believe that the accounting world needs to focus on the significant other barriers that exist for ethnic minorities, and better understand why those outcomes are the way that we have or the way that we are unconscious bias is one of those factors. But if I speak for another one, if you are an ethnic minority, then your parents are more likely to be, you're more likely to be a first or second generation

market. And because of that, it means that you don't have the networks within this country that allow you to succeed in the business world. So if we were to understand that, then we could better focus on providing support more support for ethnic minorities, when they when they enter the when they enter the workplace. I think another thing to look at is, when my firm did a study, and we looked at when we realised that we had a representative number of ethnic minorities applying for jobs.

But when they got to the psychometric tests as part of that of the interview, that's when we found significant proportions dropped out. And then we started to look into the socio economic backgrounds and realise that if you were in the minority applying for this company, then you're more likely to be from a luxurious

background. Which means even if you've got good grades, you're less likely to have done psychometric testing, let's not do a bid on an interested party to do it, and less likely to be able to afford to take psychometric test, finally, so what we've done is we met that now. Now anyone that applies for jobs, has access to free psychometric testing before they

apply. And it is making it is investing that time in understanding why ethnic minorities typically have worse outcomes in accounting, and then putting in the right interventions to change that that will make the difference. And it's moving the conversation from equality, which is providing the same things to everyone to equity, which is providing support as needed. Absolutely. And can I just actually link in on the points that he's making there, I think you have made so many important

points. And I just want to link in the piece on education. Because as an educator at third level, it's so so important. As I say, by the time you get to just choose their passion, because that's the profession we're both members of, but it needs to start much earlier than

that. And again, you see the different initiatives that are happening and to try and target people who are from, say, disadvantaged backgrounds, but there needs to be a lot more there needs to be and again, a lot of this needs to be government backed as well. So that it's not just certain groups that may be disadvantaged, that's actually collectively that everybody can, you know, can get the same opportunities. And again, just from some of them, actually just an experience I had over the

last two weeks. In Boston College again. Two weeks ago, there were a lot of different Irish delegations visiting America as a result of St. Patrick's Day, actually and Bob within that, I actually got the opportunity to meet the Minister of Education in Ireland, and equally saw some of the initiatives that are happening between America and Ireland. And I just was really, really inspired by one of these initiatives. And it was called

city connects. And really the whole objective of city can access to basically provide funding. And again, it's a link between America and Ireland, but it's provide funding to get access to children who are from disadvantaged backgrounds to give them access to education, so that they can get into the education system and very early, and then that they will have equal opportunities. So I just thought, you know, and again, I've never heard of that

initiative before. It's just it shows the really amazing things that are actually happening out there. But I suppose then, from a government perspective, rhythm and surf education, was actually looking at this, she was saying, you know, if this can be rolled out, I suppose at national level in different countries, we can capture a lot more people. And again, it can really help to, to bridge that divide. Thanks, both. I'm going to ask you both to I think get fit for

this next question. Because it's the answer needs to be very short, and something people can take away with them. And as you're listening today, maybe you reflect also on on what that one thing is that you want to put up and we'd love to hear from you will find the hashtag, and chart and tagging taught to accountants worldwide. But the episode is called the value of diversity. So just in a very few words, what would you say is the true value of diversity for an

organisation? Caroline, let's start with you. Thanks, Mandy. Yeah, I think for me, the value of diversity is really, it's about fostering innovation. It's equally about challenge and perspectives and a reader really positively. And when you do all of that, if we look at it from an organisational perspective, I think with those ingredients, you will attract the right talent then. And I think in a nutshell, that is what diversity really means to me, then sent over to you.

In a nutshell, I think that it is becoming increasingly impossible for any business to be at the forefront of their area without having a diverse workforce. So investing now and having a diverse workforce will mean that you can build up a sustainable, competitive advantage over your peers, and produce the business that we all will the type of business that we all want to work in. Couldn't agree more with both of you. We are going to go into our last five minutes at the moment.

So I'm going to suggest that I pick an audience question for you, Vincent and you, Caroline. So if you could jot down the questions, I'm going to ask them up front, and then we'll go to them. So for instance, I'm going to start with you this is a question from Jacob in Zambia. And he asked How would you describe the true value of diversity with a focus on the interaction with equity and inclusion in the workplace? And furthermore, what is the impact of the lack they have in the

accounting profession? So maybe ties in actually well with with the answer you've just given? But if you could respond to Jacob in a bit. And Caroline, I'm going to pull a question from mica from Indonesia. And they have asked how can a company and its employees adapt to different languages, cultures and genders in the workplace? What's the balance between employees adapting in the company culture, and companies adapting to be employees? So Vincent, I'm gonna go over to you first.

So I want to the second column question trust. I think the impact of a lack of diversity in fashion means that your company will be less likely to have the right voices in the room. And because of that, you're less likely to be able to challenge established norms, which means you are hampered when it comes

to innovation. And if you cannot innovate, then a business is less likely to be able to survive, because other businesses are coming up with quicker, better, more efficient ways to do things at a much grander and faster scale than you're able to. So it's unlikely that your end consumer will continue to choose you over your competitors, because they can do things either with more quality or cheaper than you'll be able

to do. And it's really important, then we'll be discussing the lack of the impacts the lack of diversity in the profession. That handle handle of that, we discussed the impact of the lack of inclusion in the profession. Because having a group of diverse voices in the room doesn't mean much if these individuals don't feel able to offer offer up their ideas. And I always compare it to everyone will have a WhatsApp

group with their friends. And if you if you're talking about going on holiday, for example, if I put in a rubbish idea about doing a holiday in that Whatsapp group, my friends will tear it to shreds in seconds. Tell me why. And then we'll move on to the next idea. Whereas if I was in the workplace with a bunch of colleagues that we that adjustment, I'm very like, I'm much more likely to go along with something that I actually

don't agree with. Just because I don't want to rock the boat and I don't know whether that's a safe environment. I'm free to actually offer what I think about first. So lack of diversity will harm you, but a lack of inclusion, once you have diversity, what I'm further and the interaction between equity and equality. For me, it's more about getting a balance between equity and equality and understanding what they actually

mean. Equality would be equality for me doesn't necessarily mean having a representative population, or equality for me means that anyone with the talent that wants to rise to senior positions within the firm has the exact same, the exact same barriers or lack of barriers as every single other person. That's what equality means to me, if someone wants to do it, and they choose to do it, then they should be able to go

forward and do it. And what equity for me is, it means that there are pre existing barriers that are the fault of no business. But these pre existing barriers exist. And it means to put people on an even keel, you need to provide support to those who need it the most. And that's how I think we can have equity, and will that will lead to equality of outcomes. Thank you over to Caroline. Great, thank you,

mica for your question. And so just very briefly, and again, I'll just draw on my experiences of when I actually moved to Saudi Arabia, and you asked about the challenges in terms of adapting to different cultures and languages within an employment setting. Again, if you think about we went to Saudi Arabia, again, I didn't really know that much about the country, I didn't speak Arabic.

And what I found was the absolute critical success factors to make that partnership work was number one, having respect for the differences in between our team and the team that we were joining, and equally collaborating together to make it work. And I have to say, over the over the space of time that we were there, we very, very much found that we had to collaborate together, we

had to work together. And what we learned from the Saudi staff and what they learned from us, it led to this really, really, I suppose, successful partnership, where we all collectively together got to, to work on such an important project. So again, for me, really, in a nutshell, Mark was so important, there was just respect for everybody in your team. And I think when you have that you can achieve so much such a great summary of it. I'm going to take one last question

from the audience. Because I think it's important and Vincent coming thing from kind of the big four, background and corporate world that you're in now. And the address asked if there's any sense that large organisations are talking diversity and integration, but not really doing much about it? So is it more of just a talk shop? Or is there a real action in business? I can, I find it difficult to be for other companies, perhaps

speaking for mine. And speaking from the interactions that I have had with other company, I truly believe that at the top level, I think that the senior leaders get it. And I think that they are trying their best at senior leadership level to make to make strides forward. And I believe that because I've had the opportunity to work with my senior leadership team. And I can truly say that there is no

bigger priority for them. And I feel that that has mirrored when I've had the opportunity to speak with senior leaders from from other companies. And that's because even more so than the moral case, they just understand naturally the economic imperative for diversity. And they know that it's so important for the survival of their

businesses. And what where I find more trouble is actually in, we look at our senior leaders, as superheroes, and to some respects they are, but then the environment that they're in that were being technically strong isn't good enough, where you have to be a politician, where you have to be in tune with what's going on today, where you have to be up to date with external events. And you have to know what to say when to

say a new tip quickly. I feel that we need to somehow timeframes, have more patience with them on that and give them the space to get things wrong as well, because they've been fostered, they've been fostered into a role, which there's no adequate training or preparation for. And because of that, it may seem that they're not moving quick enough. But I do think that they are trying, and senior leaders are the ones that come up with policies, but it needs to be implemented at manager

level. And I feel that the manager level was actually well, sometimes we find the biggest barrier to having a diverse and inclusive workforce in the future. So So I do, I do truly believe that our senior leaders are really trying to make a difference. But that difference is going to take time, they're going to get it more often. So we will have to be patient with them. And we need to ask for more from that mid manager, therefore to implement these inclusive policies within our work bases.

Thanks so much, Vincent and Caroline, I think this has been such a valuable session. Thank you so much for your time. I hope this is the first discussion of many and that we'll see you in many different platforms. To everyone in the audience. Thank you for joining us tonight. Please look out for the invitation to the next difference makers series. It's happening on the 31st of May. We'll be talking about what's become known as the parallel pandemic which is mental health.

but really thinking about why Mental Health Matters and how you can make it a priority in your life. So, thank you so much and look forward to seeing you at the end of me