You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects to elders, past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has been a fundamental part of indigenous culture. This episode of Diary of a Birth contains discussions of infertility and miscarriage. Please listen with caution. Hi. I'm Cassanya Lukitch and this is Diary of a Birth.
I've been pretty candid about my struggles with infertility with my first baby, but after two years and IVF, we were fortunate enough to conceive. But there are many couples out there struggling for much longer, and it takes an extreme emotional and physical toll. Your life starts to work in cycles. Everything centers around it, and there's nothing more frustrating than having to cancel a transfer because something hasn't lined up.
The cycles were canceled, which is also a difficult experience because you know, I would go to all the appointments and the scans and have all the injections and then get to the transfer time and they'd say sorry, it's not thick enough, we have to cancel.
After so much disappointment, Today's mum turned to sarrogacy and after years of heartache, was finally able to hold her baby in her arms. So let's meet today's mm.
Hi. I'm Kirsten. This is a diary of my surrogacy birth with Spencer.
Becustin. First of all, your story has so much before Spencer, and you wrote a book about it called This Is Infertility. I guess what I really want to start with first is a little bit about your struggles with infertility before you turned to surrogacy.
Yeah. So, as you mentioned, our Sun was born through gestational surrogacy, So he was born in twenty nineteen in Utah in the US. But this was after a six year infertility journey. So when my husband Ryan and I first tried to get pregnant, we thought it actually would be quite easy. We were in our early thirties, we had no fertility issues that I was aware of then, and so we just expected it to happen quite quickly.
And it was after about nine months of trying to get pregnant that I became really frustrated and confused that I wasn't pregnant yet, so we went and saw a fertility specialist just to get some of the routine tests done. So Ryan had his sperm checked, I had my egg count and quality checked and everything came back normal. However, through an ultrasound, the specialist picked up that I had some polycystic ovaries, so to make sure that I was
ovulating regularly, she prescribed clomid. Three months of clomid later, still no pregnancy. So we then tried UI, which is where they pop a cafeta up into the uterus with sperm tracking your cycle, and so I did three rounds of aUI still no pregnancy, so we then decided to move on to IVF. My first IVF transfer failed, which
is quite common for the first transfer. With a second transfer, I had what's known as a pregnancy of unknown location, which, as the name suggests, the mbury had implanted somewhere in my body, but not in the uterus, so it wasn't a Bible pregnancy and not in the filopian tubes, so it wasn't a topic pregnancy, but it would have been
dangerous for the pregnancy to continue. So I had metatrix E, which is a chemotherapy agent to end the pregnancy, which was a really difficult experience, and at first we did think that we were pregnant. It was the first positive pregnancy result we'd had, so obviously was a difficult time. Given I had the metatrics eight, I needed to take three months off fertility treatment as it needed time to
work its way out of my body. Then for the next couple of ivy of transfers, my cycles kept getting canceled. And the reason was I had this thin endometrium lining, and I had absolutely no idea what the endometrium lining was and why it was important. I started to research it and found that the lining is actually crucial to falling pregnant and staying pregnant. For a transfer. In Australia, the requirement is six milimeters are more to go ahead
with a transfer. In the US it's about eight milimeters, and healthy lining is considered between ten to twelve millimeters, and mine was always in the fours. So whenever it was in the fours, the cycles were canceled, which is also a difficult experience because you know, I would go to all the appointments and have all the injections and then get to the transfer time and they'd say, sorry, it's not thick enough, we have to cancel bought missions.
So that was really difficult to go through. When it was in the fives, the lining, they were like, well, close enough is good enough, and they would go ahead with the transfer and it would fail. So I started to research myself and found out that actually close enough
is not good enough. The endometrium lining is crucial, and a thick lining, you know, results in a successful transfer pregnancy, but for a thin lining, the transfer success rate is actually very low and the miscarriage rate is very high. So when I raised it with my specialists, unfortunately, she didn't really have any insights, just kept saying, well, you know, people do fall pregnant with thin lining, let's keep trying.
So not satisfied with that answer, we actually changed to another IVF specialist, thank goodness we did, and it was actually at that very first appointment that he said to us, you know, fin lining is are rare, they're often difficult to treat, and your best chance of having a baby is through surrogacy. And that was so warming.
I can imagine. I've been through the IBF process myself, so I really empathize with that feeling. Of frustration, the miscycles, the having to wait, the cancelations, and it's just constant disappointment, and it really is one of the most challenging times, not only physically on your body, but mentally and as a couple. And I really truly empathize with that process. You've decided on surrogacy, and we've had a surrogate on our show before, but they were based in Australia. You
chose a surrogate in the US. Can you tell us about choosing a gestational surrogut in the US.
Yes, So in Australia, the surrogacy process of it not as common and actually ninety two percent of people do international surrogacy rather than domestic. So with the US it is quite a smooth, easy process. They have sarrogacy agencies
which we don't have in Australia. So we were matched quite quickly with the surrogate, actually only took a couple of weeks, whereas in Australia, because there's no agencies, it's illegal to advertise and actually surrogacy in some states international surrogxy commercial surrogacy is illegal, and so we just found the process in America just you know, so smooth and easier, and we'd already been through so much prior to that, so we suppose you didn't want to waste any more
time as well, Like by the time we got to Saragxy it had been four years of fertility treatment and trying, and so therefore, you know, America was a really smart option for us.
Did you fly over there or was this all done remotely?
Well, we actually started saragcy the first time in Canada. So Canada is altruistic surrogacy, not commercial surrogacy. With Canada, because it is altruistic like Australia, it can be a longer process. There are more intended parents than there are surrogates. We were fortunate we actually matched within a few weeks with the surrogate, but it can take one to two
years in Canada. And we transported across our embryos from Melbourne to Toronto for the surrogacy, and we did flow over for the first transfer, but we actually had a very negative upsetting experience in Toronto, so flew over. We'd match with this beautiful lady Julie, and we're there on the transfer day. We're all sitting in the waiting room and the transfer time came and went. We were so confused what was happening and we kept going up to the reception. They said, all so, ione will be with
you shortly. Eventually a NICT came out and said, you know, the specialist would like to see you and Ryan and Julie in his office have a private chat. Always no, that's never a good sign. Went into his office and you know, he came in. He had this grave look on his face, sat behind his desk and he said, I am so sorry, but the container of embryos that
you transported across from Australia is empty. So he said, you know, we went to open the container about half an hour ago to start the thaw process and there were no embryos inside, and we were completely shocked and devastated. We still don't know actually what happened, but transporting embryos is a very standard common practice. People transport eggs embryo spam every week where they're changing clinics or doing surrogacy. And we found out that what happened to us was
extremely rare, less than one percent chances of happening. And we spoke to lawyers in Canada and in Melbourne. No one had even heard of this happening before, so it was really devastating and at the time, I thought, this is the universe's of saying we're not meant to be parents, Like this was not a scenario I ever dreamed that would be possible. So that was our initial sarrogacy experience, and believe it or not, we did actually continue to
pursue sarrogacy in Canada. So we transported across more embryos through a different company and we did three transfers in Canada or with genetically tested embryos, and all three transfers failed. We have absolutely no idea why. There were no obvious complications with our sarrogate or anything. But after that experience, that was when we decided to change to America.
How many embryos did you have at this point, did you have to go through multiple retrievals.
Yes, so we had. We transported across two embryos. They were our final two at that point. So that was the other really upsetting part is in the back of my mind, I was like, what if we don't get any more embryos, But we did manage to get some more. So when we went back to got back to Australia another a collection that managed to create some more embryos.
Thank goodness, you've now transported your embryos across You've then another egg collection moved to the States, and you described that process as being quite easy. What made it so easy.
We went through the Utah Fertility Center, who were amazing, So the very first meeting that we had with them, they were so invested in helping us have a baby. They really empathized with everything we'd been to and they didn't rush us at all. It felt like quite a different patient experience to Australia, to be honest. So that was the first part of it. We had really good patient care. We then went through a boutique surrogacy agency
called Rocky Mountain who matched us with our surrogate. And the first skype that we had with our surrogate, Lea and her husband Josh, we just had an instant rapport and connection with them and it felt like we'd known each other forever and we just had a really good instinct and we just knew that Lea was the person
who wanted to carry our baby. So having Leah, having the clinic, the agency, just everything felt very smooth and easy, and everyone just seems so invested in helping us finally have a baby.
I know that you didn't have a successful first transfer with Leah. You did actually have a miscarriage. Can you tell us about that?
Yes, so, our first transfer failed and it was on our second transfer that we did for pregnant and we had a scan at seven and a half weeks and everything was great. The baby's heartbeat was strong, baby was measuring well, Lea's hormone levels were good. So we thought, oh, finally this is it, we finally have our baby. Everything was looking great, was the furthest whatever got to at
this point. The next scan was at nine weeks, and given the time difference, it was three am in Utah, so we decided that Josh would video the scan and take some photos and when we'd wake up, we would give them a call. I woke up at six am and I checked my phone and there were no messages. And Leah is an excellent communicator, so I expected just to wake up to multiple messages and videos. So I
just knew that something was wrong. And Ram was fast asleep, but his phone was on the bedside table and I saw a WhatsApp message from Lea's husband Josh, and all it said is I'm so sorry we've lost the baby. So obviously that was devastating. It was also really challenging with international cerrogcy because in that moment, all we wanted to do was be together, grieve together, hug each other,
and we couldn't. And we learned that what had happened was a sub chronic heemotoma had caused the miscarriage, so it had cut off supply from the BLASCENTA to the baby. Chronic chemotome is quite common in pregnancy, not that common to cause miscarriage though, and they're one of those things they can't be prevented, they can't be treated. So once again I was thinking, oh, this is the universe's ways saying we're not meant to be parents. You know, something
rare has happened again. So it again was a really difficult time for us to go through.
You have been through a lot, and I remember with my own journey, it was like, what's wrong with me? This is the universe telling me that I'm not supposed to be a mother And it is truly gut wrenching to feel that way. What gave you the strength to keep going.
So I started to see a counselor who is also a hypnotherapist, so she definitely helped us during that really difficult time. But really it was my husband and also a surrogate, Lea, who convinced me because they both sort of took a positive from it that we did for pregnant, that what had caused the miscarriage was something so rare that could happen to anyone, wasn't to do with us specifically, and there was one transfer left in the contract, so one final try, so Leah was determined to help us
have a family. Ryan really wanted us to try again one final time. So I went in to the final transfer feeling a bit negative to be honest, and thinking this is not going to work, but fine, I'll just do it. We've got nothing to lose. They both went in sort of cautiously optimistic, and yeah, fortunately they were right, and we did our final transfer and nine months later Spencer was born.
Coming up.
She absolutely did risk her life to help another family have a child. So I mean, I just think that surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing. If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, We wouldn't have a family, So no, we owe her everything.
Okay, so you're going to be apprehensive in those first couple of weeks. You get to that kind of twelve week mark, which is our mark where you go, okay, we're kind of in the safe iwhere through the first trimester. What did it feel like for you and your partner and Leah in the States, like you're almost like a quad here. What was that moment of getting through that first trimester?
Look, it was amazing, But I'll be honest, I felt apprehensive until Spencer was born. So even though I definitely felt better at twelve weeks, and I felt better again at twenty weeks, and I felt better again at thirty weeks, with every scan further and further as we progressed, the
anxiety started to lower. Until Spencer was actually born and held him in my arms, I didn't feel one hundred percent joy, to be honest, which I think a lot of people experiencing infertility can relate to, especially if you've had pregnancy losses in the past. So I think if pregnancy has come easy and you've never had a pregnancy loss, then probably from that very first pregnancy test. You're feeling excited and happy for the whole way through. But that was not my experience unfortunately.
When did you end up flying over to the US.
Two weeks before Spencer was born?
Okay? And was it a planned cesarean? Was it a vaginal birth?
Vaginal birth?
Okay? So she went into spontaneous labor I imagine, Yes, so at thirty nine weeks so you were basically there in Utah waiting for her to go into labor. I mean it must have been nice to spend some time together phase to phase.
It was. And we actually lived with Lea and her husband, Josh, and they're two boys for five weeks, so two weeks before Spencer was born and the three weeks after he was born, so we're all together in the same house, and it was summertime over there. Spencer was born the day after fourth of July. Fourth of July is a big holiday there, so it was actually really lovely and fun time together.
I'm imagining that you were with her in the birth suite when Spencer was born. How was her labor and what was that experience like for you?
Yes, so we did have adjoining rooms at the hospital. And her labor was pretty good. Apparently wasn't too long. Leah had been a sorry before as well, I should mention for a couple from Spain. So this was her fourth delivery, so her two boys and then a previous sorry get baby. And when Spencer was born, yeah, obviously we're all crying a lot. My mum was in the room as well. She flew over with us, and I just remember our obstetric get Spencer out and he was like,
do you want to hold him? Yes, we'd just walk over and crying. And so I had the first skin on skin contact, which was absolutely beautiful. Ryan cut the cord. Leah had some skin on skin contact, and yes, it was just a very emotional, beautiful moment. We were hugging, we were all saying I love you to each other. It was a really beautiful time.
You obviously spent some time with Leon and their family, and you've got this beautiful new little baby. When did that finally all kick in and you realized that you were a mother after all this time?
Yes, the first the first few minutes of holding him, it suddenly felt real. So, yeah, such a beautiful emotional time. And again all living together was actually really special as well. And you know, by this point, Leah and Josh rold hands of being parents, so they were able to show us a few things, a few tips and tricks, which
was very helpful. This is how you put a napion, this is how you do a bath, all those things that you read in the books and listen to on the podcast before you're a parent, but when it actually comes to the time, you have no idea what you're doing, at least I didn't know. So that was a really lovely experience as well, doing all that together. And at three weeks we then flew back to Australia, so that also was very emotional saying goodbye to Leah and Josh.
Yeah, I can mention, and you know, you had almost become this blended family at this point after spending three weeks together. And Leah is obviously still recovering from birth. I'm not going to ask you to speak for her, but I can imagine that sort of giving over a baby while you're having those post hormonal things can be quite challenging, especially if you're living with them, as she'd done this before. Was that something that she was kind
of quite comfortable with? Were you comfortable with it.
Yeah, I think it was something she was comfortable with. She had mentioned that with the couple from Spain that she'd had the Suragad baby for that when it came time to say goodbye, she actually felt more emotional saying goodbye to the parents rather than the baby, because you know, that's who she knew, that's who she spent a lot of time time with, and so I think that was
true with us as well. And the night before we did fly out, though, Leah had Spencer for the night, so he slept in her bed for the night, and it was one way to let us have a really good night's sleep before jumping on a twenty hour international flight with the newborns. That was very thoughtful. But of course another part of it was her spending that quality time with Spencer, and I think it was also her way of saying goodbye, which was important. But I will
add that we have obviously kept in contact. We have such a close relationship, and we moved to the US my husband's work a couple of years ago, and we moved back last year, and when we were living in the US, we did actually catch up with Lea and Josh a few times, so we spent some time at their house. Then Leah came and spent a few weeks
with us. We were in North Carolina at the time, and so we actually saw each other three times in that time face to face, and then she kind of got to meet Spencer again because you know, she'd say goodbye to a three week newborn and then when we came back to the US, he was three and a half.
So that was a really special experience for her. And it's interesting because, I mean we'd obviously kept in contact and done video scouts and everything, but you know, within five minutes light Lia and Spencer, they just were like the best of friends and so comfortable with each other, and it was like that known each other for years as well, So it was actually really special.
I just wanted to quickly sort of move back into Leah's pregnancy. You mentioned your article about her having pre clampsia throughout the.
Pregnancy, Yes, post proclampsia.
Postpartum pre clamsier. Yes, So while you're living with her and she's going through this, like, how do you respond to that?
So she was fine during the pregnancy. At the birth, she did hemorrhage and to lose about a leader of blood. They were prepared for that because that had happened previously. So the obsetrician was amazing and they were able to treat her straight away. Was confronting at the time because all of a sudden a team or emergency team were in the room. We were kind of shuffled out of the room. However, again they were prepared for it, so
she was fine. And then her previous pregnancy as well, she'd had this post part and proclamsy up where her blood pressure would drop during the pregnancy. Her previous printance she had fainted blacked out during it, but again because that had happen previously, they were quite prepared. So she was on medication to help manage that, and she was having daily checks as well at the hospital after the birth, and so she was kind of on top of it. Also. She managed it amazing.
Actually, you have this really beautiful line of that she risked her life to give us Spencer.
Yes, because hemorrhaging and postpun and proclampcy are those dangerous conditions. So she absolutely did risk her life to help another family have a child. So I mean, I just think that surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing. If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, we wouldn't have a family, So you know, we owe her everything.
I mean, Spencer's five is almost six. What do you tell him about where he came from?
Yes, so he doesn't actually know yet that he was born through saragacy, but that is a conversation that we're having with him, most likely in the next year. So the advice we have been given is to tell him before the age of seven, and he started prep this year, so he's transitioning into school and into prep and once he's all settled, then we will have a conversation either
later this year or next year. And one of the best ways to do it is through a book, so there's lots of children's books to explain surrogacy to him. Keep it really simple as well as the advice. And he obviously knows Leah and knows who she is, so it'll be conversation of AUNTI, leiahctor mummy have you.
I'm sure he's very very well loved by you, especially after the ordeal that you've been through. I really admire your courage and strength through that because I can only imagine how difficult that whole process was for you, but I'm so grateful and happy that you had your happy ending.
Thank you.
I also wanted to talk to our resident OB and IVF specialist, doctor Bromin Devine on the importance of the thickness of the endometrial lining.
You know, it's the last frontier really of getting everything right in terms of conception and the embryo traveling down the tube and getting itself into the uterus and actually implanting in the uterress. Implanting in the utress is terribly important for the health of the pregnancy and the health of the pregnancy all the way through the pregnancy because implantation problems can be associated with lots and lots of problems.
In pregnancy, including having a very growth restricted baby or developing preclamsier things like that all have to do with issues around implantation. So the lining of the utress at the time of implantation has to be perfect. It has to be timed exactly right to accept the embryo at exactly the right time, and it has to be healthy and at a certain thickness that will allow implantation to
take place. And this is one of the most challenging things in IVF because it can be really tricky, even with all the hormonal support that we give for some women to get a uterine lining that actually gets to a thickness that will allow a healthy implantation. And when we do IVF, if someone's uterine lining is not at a level where we can feel confident about putting a precious embryo back, we will cancel the cycle and not put the embryo back because we know the chances of
that embryo taking and implanting is so much less. You know, there are some women who just for one reason or another, have a U turne lening that just doesn't respond. And we've made so much progress in the world of IVF. We're so good at creating embryos. Now, we're so good at storing embryos. We can test embryos to see if they have chromosome abnormalities, we can test embryos to see if they have genetic mutations. We can do so much stuff with IVF these days. Our culture mediums are so
much better. Our techniques for collecting eggs and collecting sperm and storing things and medications that we use. Everything we
do is just got better and better with time. In proving a uterine lining has been really challenging for us in the IVF world, and that's why some women have to go down the path of looking at surrogacy, which is phenomenally expensive and phenomenally challenging, but for some people, surrogacy offers them the only hope of being able to carry out pregnancy or being able to have a child.
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Cassanie Lukitch with expert input from Dr Bronwin Devine. If you like our show, don't forget to subscribe and rate. It goes a long way to allowing us to continue sharing your stories. This episode was produced by Ella Maitland and myself Cassanie Lukitch, with audio production by Tina Mattlov