What Lessons Can We Learn From 2024? - podcast episode cover

What Lessons Can We Learn From 2024?

Jan 01, 202550 minSeason 3Ep. 9
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Episode description

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In this episode, we examine some of the business trends from 2024 in hopes of identifying some lessons to aid us in 2025. Largely, there have been many reactive and performative solutions that are causing fatigue among leaders and HR professionals and causing ongoing issues and struggles.

Our prescription for this episode is that in 2025, we need to take steps to better understand the complexity of our issues and tackle problems with strategic intent.

You can reach out to us to talk more about getting ready for 2025, just contact us at info@roman3.ca or through our LinkedIn page at https://www.linkedin.com/company/roman3

Don't forget to sign up for our New Quarterly Newsletter that launched this fall!

About Our Hosts!
James is an experienced business coach with a specialization in HR management and talent attraction and retention. 

Coby is a skilled educator and has an extensive background in building workforce and organizational capacity. 

For a little more on our ideas and concepts, check out our Knowledge Suite or our YouTube Channel, Solutions Explained by Roman 3.

Transcript

Intro / Opening

[ANNOUNCER]

Breaking down everyday workplace  issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,   not just the obvious symptom.  Our hosts, James and Coby.

[COBY]

Did we lose a patient?

[JAMES]

No, that's just my lunch.

[COBY]

Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby,   he's James. And let's get started with a  question. What lessons can we learn from 2024?

[JAMES]

Well, first of all, happy New  Year. And if you're listening to this,   on New Year's Day, when this episode actually  drops, then congratulations on starting your   new year. Right. looking back over the last year,  I think on the Roman 3 front, at least a lot has   happened this year. we've developed some really  cool, exciting new partnerships that we'll see.   new products and new projects launched in  2025. And coming off kind of a slow summer,   we had a very busy fall, which has been 

fantastic. we launched our podcast newsletter.   We've onboarded new clients and we've had a lot  of fun just ranting about a whole wide range of   topics on the podcast. And what's kind of cool  is, two and a half or three years into running,   this podcast now have over 60 episodes.  We've got listeners in 124 countries and   we've hit six or seven different, you know, 

top recommended podcast charts. And people   are reaching out to us all the time, which has  led to some really interesting conversations,   new relationships, new projects, and some really  cool opportunities. So I really want to thank   you for listening. Not you, because you don't  matter. you, the listener. it's been a really   cool journey and I appreciate the fact that  people are willing to take this journey with us.

[COBY]

Yeah. And, we haven't really kind of  plugged it in a while, but we really should get   better at it. It's like, you know, there's  a link in the show notes to our podcast,   newsletter sign up if that's something that  you're interested in and you. We kind of,   send it out out quarterly and drop information.

[JAMES]

And if you're listening to this  on New Year's Day and you obviously can't   get enough of us, so sign up for the newsletter  and you can hear our voice and text and we can.

[COBY]

Be in your inbox, not just in your ear.  but yeah, no, this has been ye. So, 2024 has been   kind of a cool year for Roman 3, and I'm really  excited for 2025. And honestly, we never get   tired of folks who enjoy the podcast reaching out  to us and kind of connecting with us again like   some Cool projects have come from that. Some great 

partnerships. We've met such cool people. So this   is one of our favorite kind of tools that we use  to kind of help with kind of getting some of our   business ideas out there and kind of help sharing  and creating a dialogue with cool people. So if   you've kind of always wanted to kind of chat with  us, you just kind of feel like I'm sure they don't   want to hear from me. We do. So don't be afraid  to reach out. And some contact information how to  

get a hold of us is right in the show notes. But  that being said, let's actually get into with the   question of the podcast, which is what lessons can  we learn from 2024? And there's a couple things   that there's a few things that we kind of want  to talk about. I mean this year there wasn't in   a lot of ways as many big like news, you know,  shaking the kind of the business world kind of   stuff that kind of happened in past years, like  with strikes and this and that and this sort of  

thing. This year the stuff that kind of came in  was a bit more subtle, was a bit more kind of   continuation of stuff that happened in the past  years. But it's all really worth talking about   and it is worth reflecting on as we move forward  into 2025. So I'just gonna give you a quick   summary and then we'll dig into the first one. But  the things we want to talk about are these kind of   steady rollback of DEI strategies and positions  in many, many companies kind of kind of across  

North America. we want talk about kind of there's  still layoffs going on in the IT sector and not   necessarily for the same reasons that they were  kind of happening kind of in 2023. companies are   getting really tired of trying to solve complex  problems and that's go going toa be the interest   one that we're going toa talk about. Yeah, and  then we're seeing more and more businesses falling  

into the action is reaction, fallacy. So I think  that a lot of these are going to end up kind of   overlapping a bit but I think we can get started  to jump into talking about the rollback of dei.

The Rollback of DEI

[JAMES]

Yeah, I mean we've seen a lot of large  companies very publicly talking about rolling   back their efforts. I mean even Sherm has renamed  its DEI function and really dropping equity from   it. Microsoft was very public around the laying  off DEI employees. Walmart has made some really   big announcements about their rollback of DEI  initiatives. This is only going to keep, this   is going to be a trend through 2025, I suspect.  In many ways it's unfortunate and I don't want  

to get into necessarily. Well, I think there's  a lot of contributing factors to it. and I think   part of that, part of the contributing factors are  people been. We haven't done DEI very well in many   companies. It's been largely performative or it's  been tick boxes. It's been perfunctory lack of   strategy. It's an annexed off the side department  in and of itself that really isn't integrated into   regular business operations. there's a lot  happening in this space that is noteworthy.

[COBY]

Yeah, there has been this, you know,  like, like the kind of, there was a need for us,   like kind of a sweeping interjection of, you  know, support around kind of you improving,   you know, representation and kind of inclusion  and kind of like firm commitments around things   like pay equity and equal treatment and  that kind of stuff that, you know, again,   as a kind of fundamental elements that really kind  of will benefit a business and really should be in  

place. And it's embarrassing that in our modern  world these things aren't in place. Absolutely.   It was the good thing about kind of the ramp up  or the immediate kind of need or desire to kind   of jump into improving dei. even the formation  of the term DEI came from you know, something   where people were starting to finally recognize 

this stuff is important. And I think though,   and we've been saying this kind of from the very  beginning that we appreciate the fact that a lot   of people kind of like go, oh, they can of  came to realize that this stuff does matter.   But then everything that kind of happened after  that were things that we always kind of saw as  

being unsustainable. And we've done podcast  episodes where we've talked about, you know,   like, things around like doing inclusion wrong  and what does DEI really mean and all this other   kind of stuff like that. And we've been kind of  critical of the DEI infrastructure that's been   out there. And I think a lot of it kind of comes  from just this immediate almost like, okay, we   need this. So let's just take the first idea that  kind of comes to mind and then that first idea  

kind of spread. And whether it was a good idea was  never validated. It was just, almost just like,   we need to have some something, so let's have  something now. And I think that's where a Lot   of the perform stuff comes from because whatever  we do, we has to look like we're doing something   right. Whether it had any impact or all was almost  like something we'll figure out after the fact.

[JAMES]

Yeah. And we've talked about this, many  times before. The idea that the approach that most   companies have been taking historically around  DEI is that diversity plus equity will create   inclusion. D plus E equals I. That's not a true  statement, but I understand how we can get there   and I understand the thought process behind it.  Need representation is very important. We need   more people, in our workplaces who represent the  communities that we serve, the clients that we  

serve. It is an important element and diversity  of perspective is an incredibly valuable, resource   for businesses to capitalize on. But we've  talked about the difference between inclusion   and integration, when just bringing people into  an organization and having them coexist does not   automatically create an inclusive environment,  it creates integration, which is not a bad thing.   We want people to be able to coexist who have  divergent backgrounds, experiences, opinions,  

what have you. But this has led to a very  unsustainable model of DEI because it's not   creating an environment where people actually  feel like they belong and the movement. I   don't necessarily see the rollback of DEI in  many ways as necessarily a purely negative.   I'm not thrilled with the trend as it's happening.  I would rather we get to the solution by enhancing   our DEI efforts. But I think long term it's 

going to give us an opportunity to look at. Well,   the concepts are still vitally important and  there's real valuable business outcomes that come   from creating an environment where people belong  and leveraging diversity of perspective in our   organizations. I think we will have an opportunity  to reframe what that looks like and not take   the solely performative idea of how do we make  ourselves look good on the company newsletter.

[COBY]

Yeah, I'm kind of on the same page with  you as far as there's potentially some positive   things that can come out of the rollback in as  long as certain conditions are met. But I think   it's also important for us to consider what is  the kind of fundamental difference between the   DEI concept, the focal point, theire the intended  outcome, Versus the dei, implementation efforts   and strategies that were commonplace in 

our workplaces. Because you and I firmly   agree that the intended outcome is excellent and  that is something that we should have and it's   embarrassing in the fact that we don't in most  of our workplaces. But you and I have been very   be consistently critical about the way that the EI  gets implemented and the common kind of narrative   around it about what it looks like. Because you're  right, there's a lot of performative solutions.  

There's a lot of like tacked on, you know, like  people hired with no to do DEI roles with zero   authority. You, they're an appendix to kind of  every other department and they're supposed to   kind of lead from like you, the janitor's closet  down the hall on something that's supposed to be   transformative to an organization. Right. The  thing that you and I have always said, and   this is something that we talk about in a number  of different fashions, is the concept of chaos  

solutions. dei, the implementation of it, the  performative approach of it. Again, the reactive   implementation of some type of DEI concept of  tacked on training and tacked on positions is a   chaos solution. And this to refresh people. Chaos  solution is when you implement a strategy or a   plan that you expect will have a transformative  effect but you've not done the prerequisite work   to ensure you have a foundation to build from. 

This creates unsupported and unsustainable   endeavor that will ultimately cause more harm  and turmoil than create a positive effect.

[JAMES]

Is that not exact? Yeah, that's exactly  what has been happening with many DEI efforts.   The complete lack of strategy, the lack of  focus on any type of organizational change,   meaningful organizational environmental change  and structural change to support it. Plunking   in these programs that have wonderful  and important intentions and outcomes   around them that are being cut off at the  knees before they can ever get started.

[COBY]

Yeah, well, I mean if you take people out  of there every day and sit them down into like   anti bias training, cultural sensitivity training,  which is what a lot of DEI stuff was after right   of the gate in kind of 2020 and 2021. And then  you plun them back in their everyday work and say   cool, DEI achieved. That's like an absolute  chaos solution. No prerequisite work done,   no larger strategy. Just insert this one thing 

and problem solved. And we can check the box or   we've done something, we've performed an action  that has created dei. and again. Or they hire   people into these positions that sound really good 

that people were very excited for. Come to find   out they maybe have a director level job title,  but their authority is that of a payroll clerk,   like, you know, very much just unsupported and  very performative and people with great skills   who could probably done amazing things in a lot of  these major corporations to create Very effective   transformative change relegated to just a fringe  role that was doomed to fail because it was not  

designed with any kind of strategy. And the  speed the, a lot of the stuff was implemented   really speaks to how chaotic these solutions were  in many companies. So then the fact they're like,   well, clearly DEI is not important, otherwise  it would have made a difference by now.

[JAMES]

And obviously it doesn't work. So why  are we going to continue going and doing it?

[COBY]

Yeah. And that's the piece that I'm upset  about is, and we talked about this kind of in   past episodes, why cultural transformations  don't often take off the way they should is   because it's not necessarily the apathy that we  think, to change that most people think is the   biggest barrier. It'd the existence of perform  solutions that failed that people can now say,   well, we tried it and it didn't work, so 

we're just going to give up on it. Yeah,   but you tried a chaos solution and that you  set yourself up to fail and then you failed.   No surprise. So it's. So you really can't  claim that chaos solution that you tried was   a sincere effort because it was just again  was. There was no prerequisite work done to   build the foundation off of. And it was.  And it was unsupported and unsustainable.

[JAMES]

Yeah, it is disappointing.  Like hearing, seeing the news headline,   seeing major corporations, publicly coming  out, not necessarily against, but certainly,   rolling back what they're doing or deprioritizing  it. It is discouraging and it's got to be   discouraging for the, DEI professionals who are 

working in this field. but I mean, it's also got   to be discouraging to be in a position where you  have the potential for such meaningful change and   outcomes and to be constantly cut off at the  knees. So I'm hoping that good can come from   this. I'm choosing to remain positive, that we  can actually learn something from this. And as   we begin to look at not what are the performative,  pieces that, because DEI is no longer a buzzword.  

Right. If companies are, moving away from it,  then maybe we can actually take the time for   those companies that truly value it to look at.  Okay. It's not about what everybody else is doing   and it's not about what is going to be really  visual and really, stand out on your company   letterhead or corporate newsletter or whatever 

other crap we previously focused on. How can we   actually create an environment where people feel  like they belong, where we can attract top talent,   where we can bring in diverse perspectives and  where we can make people feel valued for who they   are. Like that's what we need to get to and we  can get there if we just look at take a strategic   approach to what we're doing operate with  intent. It should not be this, I shouldn't have.

[COBY]

To say it your right. For companies  that actually wanted to achieve it and whether   they are rolling it back or not, or maybe at  least if nothing there could be benefit from   this kind of consistent rollback, it could  be a good thing if we use it as a reflection  

point. Right. And here's I think the key. As  long as companies see the failure of the dei,   implementation as a failure of strategy and  not a failure of concept, then I think there is   something very beneficial that can come  from us using this as a reflection point,   trying again with intent, as you aggressively  said, and then actually be able to not create   more chaos solutions, but actually create  sustainable supported projects that will  

actually make a real transformative difference  and not just something that looks good on social   media and sounds good when being interviewed  but actually does make a real difference.

[JAMES]

Yeah, that's what we need to focus on.

[COBY]

Yeah, absolutely. All right,  so let's move on to the second thing   we wanted to talk about looking back at  2024. so we still saw some layoffs in the  

IT Industry Layoffs Continue In 2024

IT sector that continued throughout 2024 and  it was something that a lot of the general   layoffs in a lot of different sectors kind  of did slow down but the layups and it did   seem to kind of continue. And this is something  there's been lots of different like why they did   it. It wasn't so much concern about recessionary  stuff or the economy or this. Some of it was like   talks about there being some still some economic  uncertainty or some people kind of feel like they  

had overhiired in the past. and then others  kind of talk about there being kind of this   rapidly changing transformation and approaches to  business strategy. Some like disrupting elements,   things like, like AI is a good example, but by no  means is it the only example. they found a lot of   companies kind of restructuring the way that they  think about the kind of employee skills that they  

need. And so again I think that there's this kind  of concern of this fast paced kind of like changes   and disruptors are coming into the IT sector that  most companies are in the sector are kind of just   like, well if we're going to be able to kind  of weather this new stuff, we can weather it   better if we're lean than if we're overstaffed.  So let's continue the layoffs. That way we can   pivot easier with a smaller ship. I think that's  probably what some of the mentality behind it is.

[JAMES]

Yeah, and the whole lean mentality is  what drives a lot of layoff proceedings. That   and we need to run lean or we need to get  our numbers up for this quarter, what have   you. Yah, the tech sector is an interesting case  because while I don't want to put too much focus   on AI as the boogeyman, I do think that it's  had a real impact and I think it's probably   had an impact at specific levels or authority  levels or within the tech sector because the   requirements to get started have been 

lowered with AI. And I think companies   are taking advantage of that, which I mean we  can't really fault them on taking advantage of   these new tools. I mean it happens across all  sectors. but it leaves the tech industry in an   interesting place. If you have the generative  AI doing a lot of the more manual operations   in generating first passes of code, then you need  fewer people. but it's also done an interesting  

piece around data analytics which is. And  the way that AI system is going to actually   understand and generate and visualize  data now is coming a significant ways.

[COBY]

Well and for me again I don't want  to underscore the impact the AIs had on it   too. But to me the continued layoffs about kind  of concerned about overhiiring and again just   trying to prepare for economic uncertainty, and  fear of the rapid transformation and changes in   strategy is to me more of a sign of a gut  reaction to having bad change management   practices. Right. To me that's more. What is  that again the idea of we can pivot better,   we're more agile if we're leaner, there's 

some validity to that concept. But the idea   of being leaner, having less employees, having of  people carrying more work individually than teams   do come of collectively, isn't a replacement  for being able to handle change. Lean doesn't   replace being agile. I guess it may be kind  of the summary of that statement. Right. If   you are concerned about the size of your boat  and it's easier to turn a smaller boat than a  

bigger boat. But if you're really bad at  turning any kind of boat, then the size.

[JAMES]

Of it, if you're a  terrible captain, then too bad.

[COBY]

And that's kind of where I'm going.  Right. Because I mean if we are afraid of   Our ability, to handle the change. If we're not  confident in our change management practices,   in our ability to kind of evolve and adapt and  have some agility in our strategy, then I can see   this idea of like again, reducing our, our numbers  so we've got, it's easier to kind of control   a smaller group. But to me that's a reaction  of fear rather than a reaction of conditions.  

And that's something that I'm not saying every  company that is doing this is acting out of fear   and is unconfident inility to change. But I  do think that's something that is probably   a much bigger part of this story than what  most people are thinking about when they're   pointing to disruptors like AI as being  the cause or the economic uncertainties   being in the cause. I really do think that 

those are probably symptoms. But I think the   core piece is that this is a reaction to being  unprepared or unconfident in managing change.

[JAMES]

Yeah, that's an interesting  take because for those companies that   are focusing on we need to be lean, we need  to be agile, we need to be able to pivot,   layoffs is what is the strategy that they've  employed for years to be able to accomplish   that. But what happens once you do pivot  and you don't have the staffing required   to actually get back up to speed quickly in a  new market with a new product or what have you?

[COBY]

Yeah, to me I kind of see it as this  idea of going lean to improve agility is. Or as   a replacement or as kind of your main strategy  for being agile is like a boxer saying, well,   I need to make weight for tomorrow's match so  I'CUT off my arm and I'll drop five pounds. Right.   Like to me it says faulty of a logic as that  is, rather than put the effort in to be really,   you be prepared. It's a reactionary short term  thinking that ends up being kind of the default.

[JAMES]

Yeah, no, I think it's  an interesting perspective.

[COBY]

All right, so let's talk about  the third one. This is one I've actually  

Companies are Tired of Trying to Solve Complex Problems

been really excited to talk about with  you. Definitely a common trend this past   year that companies are tired of trying to  solve complex problems. And that fatigue,   that being tired of this constantly solving  problems is becoming a major strain on any   kind of progress or progression and is  going to be a continual problem in 2025.

[JAMES]

Yeah, this has been really frustrating. I   mean it's funny because in the opening  I talked about things have been great,   this fall for us personally. but I can't count the  number of times out of sheer frustration talking   with you, talking about, you know, conversations  that we're having, either prospective clients,   past clients. People don't want to change.  They just don't want their problems to exist.

[COBY]

Yeah.

[JAMES]

And they're just really tired of.

[COBY]

Feeling.

[JAMES]

like they've, they're spinning  their wheels or doing the wrong thing. I   think a lot of it comes down to things that  we've already touched on. the performative   solutions do not get you the results that you  think that you should be getting. You won't see   a true ROI on implementing new strategies  if you're focused on productivity theater.   It has been frustrating in many ways.  kind of going through and seeing this   perspective of a bit of a fatigue  around addressing crucial issues.

[COBY]

Yeah, I mean like this is something  that is so again, like our, like we were saying,   our year has been quite good, but we have tons  of colleagues in different elements or different   parts of consulting and fractional work and  interim leaders and all this other kind of   stuff that do kind of like lots of people are in  our network. And what's really kind of what we saw   a surprising trend this fall was so many people  had contracts end or get dropped or clients that  

they were onboard and kind of pull out. A lot  of that worked for a lot of people dried up,   you know, at very quickly in the last two quarters  of 2024. And so first we were like, oh, well   that's a shame about that isolated incident. But  then we kept hearing about it and I think it is   this fatigue and I do think that it is what you’ve  said that people are tired of trying to address  

these issues. They’re now at the point where they  just don't want the issues to exist and they're   just kind of like covering their ears and closing  their eyes and la la la la la. Ah, this isn't a   problem I have anymore. Is kind of the official  business strategy that we've seen companies turn   down perspective work and proposals in favor of. 

So instead of us hiring you to help us solve this   problem, we're tired of this problem existing, so  we're just going to cover our ears and close our   eyes and pretend that it's not happening. Tends  to be what the normal thing has been, especially   in the last two quarters for many, many, many  people in kind of the consulting and kind of you   organizational solutions and transformation and 

all the kind of in the sectors and been. It's been   sad, especially when you consider how persistent  the problems are. The problems are not going   away. Employee retention, employee motivation,  workforce longevity, all these things are still,   they're actually getting worse. But businesses  seem to be slowing down in their focus and   commitment to organizational transformation,  choosing to ignore the problem in hopes that   it goes away. And this is where we see this. 

And this is just, I think it all boils down to   fatigue. They're just tired of this stuff, so  they're looking for shortcuts or they're looking   to just again, use denial that this problem  will resolve itself. Everybody wants stuff   to go back to normal and they're not willing  to accept that normal is no longer a thing.

[JAMES]

This is normal.

[COBY]

Yeah.

[JAMES]

Until you actually address these  issues, it's going to continue to be your   normal. It's funny, we're now into, officially  into 2025. we're almost five. I'm going to   go back to Covid because I still hear people  talking about wanting to get back to the way   things were pre Covid. We have to accept some  of the new realities, the new expectations,  

the changing priorities. I've said it before with  clients, I've said it before on this podcast that   if you had customers who suddenly stopped buying  from you, you would spend an awful lot of time,   energy and resources into investigating  why they stopped buying from you. And then  

you would take strategic. You'd create a plan,  you'd create a strategy, you'd develop some tool   implementation to change to make sure that your  value proposition is aligned with your customers,   needs that what you are offering them actually  now still meets the outcomes, the needs that they,   that you think that they need. You would put a lot  of time, energy and effort into understanding the  

problem. Yet when workforce expectations changed,  when had, when we saw significant trends in kind   of push back against the normal from years ago,  Companies didn't investigate why. They didn't take   the time to understand the new motivations. They  didn't invest in understanding the problem. They   criticized people for the changing expectations. 

If you had done that in the consumer market,   if your customers stop purchasing from you and  you criticize them and call them lazy for not   buying your product anymore, it's not really  going to help your case now is it? But that's   the approach that many businesses took to labor  problems. Rather than taking a strategic effort in   understanding what needs to change, how do I need  to adapt to the new realities of the situation?

[COBY]

Yeah, it's one of those things where the  like. We've worked with a number of businesses   that have been largely for decades, kind of  been immune to kind of the ebbs and flows of the  

workforce. And they're now facing these same major  issues with employee attraction and retention,   employee motivation, workforce longevity, like  I said before, and they're not really willing   to put the work in to actually resolving them  because the mentality is kind of almost best   summarized as well, these were problems we  didn't have before and we don't want these  

to be problems anymore. So there, like that's,  that's kind of we don't want this to be a problem   is almost like the you when you summarize  everything down to kind of to. To brass text,   that's really what they're saying.  We don't want this to be a problem.

[JAMES]

Well, they pass the. It's about  passing the buck. Right? It can't possibly   be anything that I'm doing or not doing. It  has to be a problem with the workforce. It   has to be that people don't want to work  anymore. It has to be that employees are   lazy. It has to be, you know, they're entitled  and they don't want to work. And they, you know,   everybody's focused on, outside priorities 

rather than prioritizing work. Well, okay,   even if all of thats true, okay,  what are you going to do about it?

[COBY]

Right. Yeah. And yeah it's one of those  things where like, we do get that this stuff is   complex. We do get that this stuff is expensive,  that this stuff does not have a fast turnaround.   And we do get that many companies have tried  things that looked nice and flashy and looked   like they were going to be, the silver bullet to  solve the problem in a really short turnaround   and it didn't. And they think now the problem  can't be solved. But the problem is you can't  

just not want this to be your problem. That can't  be your official position. This stuff you need to,   one, you need to make sure that you understand  the problem. And two, you have to say, you know,   solving this problem is going to be our normal for  the next two, three years, possibly, maybe more,   depending on how deeply rooted it is. Right. 

Like if you have no infrastructure, for example,   one thing that, you know, we're seeing with  businesses that haven't, you know, haven't   had to or t haven't had a lot of turmoil again,  any kind of the ebs and flows of the workforce,   a lot of them don not have great communication  infrastructure with their employees. Like the   people that are on the front lines or people  that are kind like, you know, Odin Fields or   whatever like that they don't have a way to 

communicate with them. So these infrastructural   pieces are absolutely void. They're not there.  And if those big pieces aren't put into place,   then any effort you make isn't gonna work. So the  solutions are gonna take longer. Cause you like,   you got toa build that foundation so before  you can actually address the actual problems.   And to be honest, what I want to say to 

people is buckle up. This stuff isn’t,   you're on a long journey and covering your ears  and closing your eyes and wishing this wasn't a   problem is only gonna make the problem get worse.  And it's something that we get, that you're tired,   that there is s this kind of transformation  fatigue that you're feeling. But if you don't   try and transform your normal to be this is  what it is, then you're just going to end up  

putting yourself a greater and greater risk. And  when you do decide to wake up, you're going to   see that you've wasted a lot of time, effort and  money and the problems are only getting bigger.

[JAMES]

And I mean, this is  obviously, this is a piece that I find   frustrating. but there's a reason why we  start our engagements with collecting,   some data with an investigation. Because  you cannot create targeted strategic   initiatives if you don't actually understand  the realities that your workforce is facing,   the realities of the environment that they work  in. Not merely what you say your culture is,   but the experience that your employees have 

day to day. those investigations, that data is   essential to crafting any type of intervention.  transformation, change in a positive way.

[COBY]

Yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's  move on to the last one. And again, so the  

More and More Business Failing into The Action is Reaction Fallacy

first three we talked about the rollback of dei,  the layoffs and the IT sector and kind of this,   companies being tired of solving problems. Those  are things that are kind of like out there that is   just kind of like happening everywhere. This last  one is kind of one that I think we're seeing. And   we don't want to be, say that this is happening  everywhere because we're not 100% sure about  

that. But what we are seeing is there is more and  more organizations that are falling into one of   the things that we call the five threatening  truths. And the threatening truth that we're   seeing probably was just rampant in 2024, was what 

we call the action is reaction fallacy. And this   is when organizations think that the actions their  organization should be taking are about reacting   to things, always kind of, putting things into  place after the fact and never Actually being   proactive, only just responding to things as they  come. And that is what normal businesses are. And  

they do. And that fallacy of thinking that your  actions should only really be reactions, kind of   one actually kind of is a root cause of some of  the other one, the rollback of dei, the layoffs,   the, and the complex problems. But it is a mindset  that is so hard for organizations to ever get.   Sorry. It's difficult for the organizations to  start to actually fix things if that's the mindset   that they're in while these  problems are happening.

[JAMES]

Yeah. And this goes very like. We  see this happening in kind of within every   department within a business that we touch.  But where we see it a lot is in hr. We've   referenced it many times. We've talked about  the four faces of hr. but it's really that,   that firefighter mentality where all you  really have the capacity for because the   business doesn't necessarily support progressive  HR practices. You're just responding to problems,  

to fires as they come up. And you spend your  day putting out three fires and by the end of   the day there's five more that have been created.  And it's exhausting and it creates a significant   amount of burnout and it causes many of the other  issues that we've talked about to become worse.

[COBY]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're right.  Going back to when we talked about what we   call the highly reactive department,  which is what HR stands for. That is a,   so funy. When we did that episode, we  talked about what is HR stand for. so   many HR professionals reached out to us and be  like, yeah, you nailed what my past job was like,   or this sort of thing. I'm fortunate now  that I've kind of gone through and I'm now  

at the humans required department. I love  my job, but I had to work through a number   of highly reactive this. But it is pervasive  out there that probably you. Many, many, many,   many HR professionals work in a highly reactive  department. And it's again often in the work that   we do that tends to be the first department that 

we really get a full view of. And then it's always   the case that when there's a highly reactive HR  department, everything else, finance, operations,   everything else tends to also be highly reactive.  Just because it's rare that it's ever just like   one department. But this is why the fallacy is  so damaging is to most organizations and to the   leadership of most organizations, this isn't this  what business is supposed to be Isn't this normal?

[JAMES]

Isn't this just how HR operates?  Aren't they supposed to just respond to stuff?

[COBY]

You're like, no it's not.

[JAMES]

That's not the only  function they serve. Yeah.

[COBY]

And you know, and again it's  like the whole idea of the action is   reaction fallacy is really kind of characterized   by that people see reacting to problems  as a replacement for having a strategy.

[JAMES]

Yeah.

[COBY]

And that's the thing that we're just  like okay, so there is no real plan or the   plan that you have is so it is so generic and  unspecific and unmeasurable that it might as   well. It's not worth the paper that's written  on. But really kind of comes down to we'll just   figure stuff out as we go. We'll just put out  fires as we go. We're investing in fire hoses   rather than fire prevention. And just like man,  that is such an expensive thing to constantly  

do. And. And I think so that's kind of like  the summary is that it's a replacement for   strategy. But what it looks like tends to be  the chasing those flavor of the month ideas.

[JAMES]

Yeah. Yeah. And we see a lot of  this in I don't know that I could narrow it   down to any one particular department field  industry size of. We all do it right. Oh,   shiny. let's play with the newest AI toy. Ooh,  shiny. We've got something else to look at that   catches our attention. bouncing around from  project to project, from product to product,   from idea to idea, idea to idea. The problem  is people aren't in many when we are in that   mentality of the action is reaction or 

chasing the flavor of the M month. We   never let projects have enough longevity to  m actually measure the improvements. Right,   right. If you we these problems did not crop up  overnight. Whether we're talking about employee   attraction, retention, productivity, performance,  performance management, doesn't really matter. We  

didn't get into the problem overnight. We can't  expect that we can drop a boxed product program   survey what have you in and suddenly all of  our problems are going to be fixed in a month.

[COBY]

Yeah. And I mean I think part of the  flavor of the month chasing piece is there's   a bit of fear off missing out. Right. I mean like  oh well, we don't want to be left behind. So if we   commit to something for longer term and something  better comes along, then are we just working with   antiquated technology or antiquated tools? Well, I  mean Critical thinking while you're implementing a  

strategy is always good. It's always good  to re-evaluate, always good to reflect,   always good to kind of like you assess fit.  There's all kinds of methods that you can do.   You don't have to drop stuff and jump on the  new thing or turn on your blinders and ignore   what's happening in the world while you are laser  focused on this one plan that, you know, maybe,   maybe needs to be re-evaluated. It's not all  or nothing. It's a matter of, you know, like,  

of going forward with intent. And I think  that's really kind of all it comes down to   if you're implementing strategy with intent. Part  of intent is to keep your finger on the pulse of   the environment that you're working in and all  the tools available to you. Just putting your   head down and focusing on one plan and seeing it  through regardless of what happens around you is   no better than just reacting to all the flavor 

of the month and chasing all the new shiny. And   having the fear of missing out is if you don't  have intent, then you really don't have a plan.

[JAMES]

Yeah. Looking at everything that  we've talked about today in this episode,   it all comes down to a lot of these problems  are caused because we didn't fully understand   the problem and we didn't create a plan  for how to address it based on the data,   the understanding that we've generated. You can't  expect to have transformative change by accident.

[COBY]

It's the. And whether that's the idea  of we spend more money on those machines that   electrocute our abs to, to get us all built  so we don't have to actually put the work   into it. If it's that kind of mentality  we want to pill to solve our problems   rather than proper diet. Again, there's the  quick. We're addicted to quick fixes. Yes.

[JAMES]

In every aspect of our lives,   not just business. The problem is it has huge  financial implications. In our organizations.

[COBY]

Yeah, exactly. Because when you're in  a business, it's not just you, it's the people   that you employ, it's the businesses that rely on  the ecosystem that you're work in is weakened by.   By not taking the right steps to sustain success. 

And it's one of those things where I really hope   as we move into 2025, that we can learn from  this and not be chasing the new and shiny,   not be doing action with intent, not letting the  fatigue we have with solving problems be kind of   what holds us back from having any kind of success  being building good change management strategy so   we don't have to continue just laying people off  and hope that being small is the same as being   good at change and stop chasing this performative 

solution to start actually having intent,   and truly understanding the prerequisite  work that's required. So we have. We're   building off good plans from a good foundation,   not just buying snake oil and then  surprised that it's not curing our illness.

[JAMES]

Yeah, no, I think that's a good summary.

[COBY]

Yeah, I think so too. All right,  so that about does it for us. For a full   archive of the podcast and access the video  versions hosted on our YouTube channel, visit   Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.

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