What Is Some Practical Psychology For The Workplace?

so, Coby, you're on the hot seat. Ah, the  first one that I want to ask you about is  

the actual definition and differences between  introversion and extroversion. just as a little   bit of a preface, Although I think the vast  majority of people are going to be familiar   with the actual terms, I think there's  a lot of misinformation about what they   actually are. So can you walk us through  what extroversion and introversion are?

be overly active in their social life. Where   extraversion is obviously the opposite, where  people think that it's about this desire to be   the life of the party, the big attention grabber  that super outgoing and super charismatic and just   like, you know, anywhere there's something going  on, they will to be there. It's a preference to   kind of be in the mix of it all the time. And, you  know, just being you, this huge social butterfly.   And the thing is, is that if that's what people. 

If that's what you listening to this thinks,   you're wrong. That's not what it is at all. What  introversion and extroversion are actually all   about. It's actually about your kind of energy  source. It's like your social battery charging   point. Because introversion is about what gives  you social energy and what gives you kind of   mental energy and what takes it away. Because if  you're an introvert, then Being alone or having.  

Or being with kind of a small group of trusted  people that don't require a lot of almost like   social use charges your battery. You're, you know,  being alone, kind of having some solitude, not   requiring a lot out of your, you know, out of you  and you kind of in the use of your social muscles  

is what fill your battery up. But then when you're  in situations where it does require you to be,   you know, using your social muscles and kind of  being involved in more people and they re trying   to balance social interactions and all the kind  of complexities to kind of go with interpersonal   communications and connections that drains your  battery. M Whereas extroversion is the opposite.   It's when being with others is what charges 

you up. You're feeding off the social energy   of others and you know, being around them, is  what gives you that extra boost of energy and   you feel more alive and you feel more charged  and it becomes very kind of like, know, like   sustaining that sense of energy and kind of just  that social muscle presence. Whereas being alone,   feeling more isolated, feeling kind of more  apart from people, it's kind of like that the   battery starts to drain because it's not you 

being recharged. You're not using your social   muscles enough. That ends up kind of kind of  drying you out and you end up feeling like,   you know, you just, you are under stimulated and  so you start to dwindle a bit. And that's really   kind of stimulation piece is kind of a good way to  understand it. Between, you know, overstimulation   with introverts can drain their batteries where  under stimulation for extroverts can drain their   batteries. And most people really don't think 

of it as energy sources. They really do think   of it as a preference with social behavior. And  that misconception, can create a lot of unfair   judgment and unfair. Kind of like putting  people implying people are breaking social.

self, assessments, Myers Briggs assessments. And  every time I land right on the line of hovering   between introversion and extroversion.  Because I personally I enjoy being out   and around people for a limited amount of time.  And at first that will jazz me up. I'll be out,   I'll be talking to people, I'll be energetic. But  if I'm doing that too long, it's exhausting. And  

the same is true for like. So I kind of. And  I think a lot of people are probably this way   where it's an element of both that gives them  energy. And maybe it's more one than the other   for some. But I think the common understanding and  I think the reason why I wanted to ask about this   in terms of how does this relate to the workplace? 

is because if we are thinking about it in terms,   if we're not thinking about it in terms of  people's energy sources about if we're not   taking into consideration how people recharge  their batteries or don't, then we can put   people in a situation where they're not able to 

perform at their best. If you put a person who   is actually introverted, who needs a bit of  solitude or you know, less stimulation, in a   very overstimulating environment, they're going to  not be able to perform in this necessarily in the   same way that they could if the environment was  tailored to how they actually need that to happen.

So when they are, were allowed to kind of work  more from home and removing that again the use   of their social muscles, it did amazing things for  a lot of people. Their productivity skyrocketed,   their, their sustained productivity, their  performance and all that kind of stuff what's   great. But at the same time it also was a, a big  switch for people when a lot of the extroverts   who thrived in those highly kind of like not  necessarily chaotic but very involved, very active  

workplaces were kind of put into isolation. A lot  of their performance really dropped because they   were craving that again the use of those social  muscles in that stimulation piece. And it was one   of those things where kind of the problem that  kind of comes up when we don't view introversion   and extroversion as energy sources, review them  as social preferences is that we don't realize,   like you say, that we're putting people at  disadvantages by expecting everyone to thrive in  

the same environment. And that is a big piece of  like you know, when we are saying that, you know,   when we give people the idea of flexible working  locations. So for industries and businesses that   you can provide, you know, more flexibility in 

when and where people work. Allowing people to   kind of build a schedule that not just works with  their like, you know, their commitments and their   responsibilities, but also kind of works with  their energy levels or their energy sources can   be a more a better way to give people what they  need to get the most out of them. And I mean,   and like I said, you're right. When you kind of  say a lot of people are kind of in the middle,   there is kind of a middle term. I don't really 

love it. It's called like an ambivert. It's not,   I don't know if I'm going toa mention it, but I'm  not really confident to kind of say or say that   it's a legit thing that people, you know, is kind  of that middle road. Because in reality it's that   you know, very few people are 100% extroverts. 

Right. And very few 100% introvert. That there   is that blend and some situations can, you know,  you know, they, they're introvert place might be   the one driving the bus and other times it might  be their extrovert. And again it is kind of that   balance. But realizing that sometimes your social  muscles fuel themselves by being around people and   other times it drains you and kind of getting to  know yourself. And even if you think about this,  

you know, we're not. The intent of this episode  is for kind of, for you listening to have a bit   of better understanding of those around you  and not necessarily about helping you better   understand yourself but if you are someone  that is hearing this for the first time,   that it is about your energy levels, knowing  when and where you feel more charged and when   and where you feel more depleted is helpful  to kind of know about your optimization of  

what environments are going to give you  the best opportunities for performance.

those that you work with. Because like, you, there   are some very outgoing, very, you know, like, you  know, like, charismatic and very like, you know,   like involved life of a party. People that are  still having their batteries drained by being that  

person. So expecting that just because somebody is  good, you know, in some situations or for a short   amount of time, that they're gonna thrive all the  time in that kind of environment is a bit of an   assumption that you might be making about people. 

Or assuming that this. Because someone might be a   little bit more reserved, a little bit more kind  of laid back and not necessarily any kind of step   in front of a group doesn't mean that they're  still not really being a good or really would   not thrive in a more active environment. Because  again, a good example of a outgoing introvert is  

you. So you know that you can carry that life of  a party for a set amount of time, but then you're   going to need to kind of like know, call it early  and then go recharge your batteries. Whereas there   are some who might not want to be in front of the  group, but are just so jazzed up by being involved   in the group that they could do it forever  because it is totally filling their batteries.   They're just not the one that you're looking at.  Right. They're not the one that's drawing your.

environment is. Part of it is asking them, you  know, the question, talking to them, you know,   not just giving people opportunities or putting  them in a situation based on your assumptions,   but actually making sure that you get to know the  people around you so you're actually optimizing,   what they feel is the best environments for  them, but also when it comes to things like you,   when you have opportunities to kind of assign work  locations or work tasks, again, try and tailor  

it to what they actually do need, not what you're  assuming based on behavior that they've shown you.

recognizing that people need different. I mean  we talk about this in a lot of different ways   that we really need to tailor our workplaces  as much as we can to allow individuals to   thrive. Right. And so the more we understand the  individuals who make up our teams, I think the   better we will be able as leaders to actually  get the performance out of them that we need.

might not be a bad way to go. But even just kind   of, you know, if you're in a workplace, let's  say you're in a retail environment and you're,   and you've got a fairly large team and you've  always kind of been putting like you say,   the most outgoing people in the most  customer service positions and the most,   the most quiet or shy people in the most, you  know, like solo things or solo positions that   might work, but it might not hurt to talk to 

the team and kind of say let's start moving   people around and trying different people out in  different roles to kind of see. Because again,   who's great the first couple hours is not  necessarily who's great for the whole day.

Dwindle. So switching things up or trying   things out in different roles, again're if you're  actively trying to get the best of your people,   not acting on assumptions is  probably going to be the best.

actually the curse of knowledge, which sounds  really cool. or so sometimes referred to as the   curse of expertise as well. So Coby, what is the  curse of knowledge? And is knowledge a bad thing?

knowing that piece of information. So in our  engagements and communication with other people,   we kind of start from where we think the  most natural introduction to an idea is,   which may be levels above where someone actually  is or knowing or stuff that we assume is common   knowledge is a much higher threshold than what  the average person would feel common knowledge is.

course your way into. So a lot of, there's  a lot of awful adult education practices out   there where experts who ah, are living with  the curse of knowledge are just blowing it   as educators because that's not what they're  specializing in. So realizing that you know,   you can't just make anybody an educator. The  educators is a special calling that you and just   becoming because you're an expert and something  doesn't mean that information will pass through.  

Osmosis does have to be this effective knowledge  transfer which can only really come for someone   skilled and trained as an educator. So there is  a bit that curse of knowledge does live there.

This happen, this seems to me to happen frequently  when we have like a deep technical understanding   or knowledge of the job which ends up getting  us promoted into a leadership or management   position because we've done the job really,  really well. So obviously we want to put   that person in a position of leadership  to help other people do the job really,   really well. Logical. But I think there's some 

logical fallacies in there as well. And so   can you talk about the curse of knowledge  from kind of that leadership perspective?

like to not have this high level of expertise. so  the fact that you, my employee or my trainee or   my apprentice or whatever it is can't function at  the same level that I'm on is frustrating us both   and making this a terrible mentoring situation, a  terrible management situation, or just a terrible   employment situation sometimes because 'there is  this inability for the person who has the curse of   knowledge to just relate to the growing pains, 

to the uncomfortable you know, awkward getting   know like transformation piece from you know, from  beginner to Intermediate. Right. So there's often   a lack of patience. There's also a lack of how can  they not get this? Or there's just skipping steps   that are vital to learning but are always over,  you know, but are always kind of like jumped over   when someone has it had experience, mastery of  something. And again, it's the idea of preping  

people for how do you educate? How do you transfer  knowledge? How do you bring somebody up from a   place that is that you have a hard time relating  to into a place where you need them to be? And   like, as much as I'm. And you and I are both the  big supporters of mentoring, but we're supportive   of strategic mentoring. And strategic mentoring is  a about at recognizing that the curse of knowledge   is one of your biggest barriers to effective, 

training, onboarding, skill development. When   you don't have someone that can almost like  critically reflect or critically think about the   stages and steps involved in upskilling somebody,  so they just assume that everybody's, is at their   level and you're again, kind of like you're  asking someone to become an educator without   giving them any training, support, resources  in order to actually do that effectively.

And I think this is one of the issues with   where mentoring fails is when you assume that  anyone with a depth of knowledge can become,   can be a good mentor. Just like when you assume  that anyone with a depth of knowledge can be   a good educator. It'that to understand  that the transfer of knowledge requires   a different skill set. It is a skill that can be 

taught. So if you have people who, if you have   a M mentorship program and you have people with a  deep depth of, understanding of how your workplace   operates and you want to use them and leverage  them to help new employees along or to, mentor the   growth of employees that you have targeted for,  succession planning, wonderful. Do it. But provide   your mentors with some skill development around. 

How do you actually train people? How do you, what   are those adult education principles that they can  use to actually be able to train, transfer that,   knowledge effectively? Because then everything's  going to get so much better for you.

Are they missing core pieces? Because m. Most   people in this realm don't have that depth of  understanding about how adults learn or are about   effectively educating and transferring knowledge.  So it's one of those things where we tend to kind   of like get. I try not to be too uppity about it.  I try to be a little bit, I try to kind of be very   like understanding of the situation, the your. 

With the people that you have around you and with   your experiences so far you've done it, how far  you've come, which is usually you don't want to.

jump over steps. But we've run into this too when  we've done some of our programs around recognition   or around motivation and purpose where this is  stuff that we've researched and we've implemented   and we've worked with leadership coaches and we  work with other consultants that specialize in   business performance and we kind of go into  these companies to try and help them resolve   major organizational culture, challenges and 

improve performance productivity. And we always,   we're always surprised and that the stuff that we  think they need to reach optimal performance is,   you know, we're always kind of saying we think  they're probably going toa want to be at you know,   level two but usually they're at like level  point one because like you kind of forget,  

right? This is the curse of knowledge. This is  us assuming they know all about these, you know,   forms of recognition and all about these, you  know, connecting purpose and meaningful work to   kind of the everyday and the communication  practices that kind of go around them. We   assume all this stuff is just everyone  else knows it too. Like all the other,   all the HR professionals, all the leadership team 

does that. They get this and we remember, right,   this is us flung into the curse of knowledge.  We have to take a step back and help them get,   and meet them where they're at, not meet  them where we think we would be if we were   in that role. And that's big. The big critical  reflection piece you have to go into is remember,   you got to meet the, the audience where they're  at, not where you expect them to be if it was you.

okay, cool. We can kind of meet them, you know,   at a bit, at a bit of a higher level if you  really want to hit that optimal performance. But   then other companies we've come into and like no  one's ever taken a self assessment thing before.

survival mode. There has been a lot of stuff  happened in the last year and a lot of stuff   happened in the year before that. And let's  face it, every year we are bombarded by a   lot of stressors, a lot of different factors  that influence our personal and professional   well being. And we end up. So what is the impact  of people living in a prolonged survival mode?

whatever it is. So survival mode in a lot  of ways it's about a much more like core,   I'm gonna say primitive but like, I mean that in  more of like an standpoint, kind of like brain   function, it's not about thinking about all  of the kind of all the social complexities,   all, all the different levels of like three  steps ahead is really about thinking about   moment by moment is really kind of what 

survival mode is like. We. And you're right man,   2024 for so many people has been just an absolute  nightmare. And we're hearing it kind of this kind   of growing involvement. All of us have a lot of  optimism for now, for 2025, but it's this idea of   people have been in this sustained level of almost  like, like more basic, more you safety focused   cognitive functioning because they're trying to 

live moment by moment. And I mean I always tie   survival mode back to malsow's hierarchy of needs.  Right, right. Because knowing the hierarchy of   needs, you know, to just refresh folks the basic,  you know, the bottom foundation that you have to   kind of, kind of build and work through is bas  your basic needs like you know, shelter, food,   water, that type of stuff. Then you move up to  safety and about safety of self, safety of family,   safety of kind of situation, safety of income. 

And then you go on to belonging and then self   esteem and then self actualization. And it is such  a great way to kind of really understand survival   mode because so many of us have been kind of like  rocked to our core with traumatic situations in   our personal lives or in our professional lives  or kind of just you know, or even kind of like   seeing kind of the institutional betrayal of our  systems or our governments or our like, you know,  

just. Or kind of the institutions that we rely on  are, you know, we feel betrayed or we feel that   are failing us. So a lot of us are, to protect  ourselves, are stepping back into survival mode.

matters. That's where your focus is. I see this  prolonged survival mode in that same way of if,   if we have all of these external factors that are  forcing us to narrow our vision and only focus on,   you know, am I going to be able to pay my  bills, Am I going to be able to keep my family,   keep a roof over my family's head, am I  going to be. Whatever those stressors may be,   it has a direct impact on our ability to perform 

in our jobs. Right. Let's make sure that we are   making this relevant to the workplace because as  important as it is individually and as impactful   as it is to that individual, this does impact  our businesses as well. Which is why I think   it's really important for us to make that 

connection. Because as a business owner,   as a business leader, you may not be able  to control all of those external forces that   your employees are experiencing, but it's  going to impact your workplace regardless.

the prolonged survival mode? And a lot of it is,   again it's the inability to kind of maintain the  level of executive functioning, to effectively   manage social situations optimally, to effectively  think two or three steps ahead, weeks ahead,   months ahead. It's really about almost like  just trying to keep yourself protected moment   to moment, day to day. Is kind of often the high  end of the forward thinking. So people are more  

impulsive. People are really kind of sacrificing  their long term, success for short term gain   because they can't see beyond the short term gain.  there is this kind of idea of people having a bit   of hopelessness in stuff that's a little bit too  far removed from them or a little bit too far down  

the road for them to really conceptualize. There's  you know, it's fun last episode and I'll make sure   I put identifying the show notes to the last  psychology kind of practical psychology of the   workplace episode that we did last season. Talk  talked about self sabotage. Self sabotage is kind   of a common scene of prolonged survival mode. Just  because again we're too focused on the short term,   that we can't see beyond the short term to  have any kind of future in the long term.

I worked in community education. So when I was  working in community education and I ran some   workforce programs, kind of some of the stuff  that I did involved working with people who   were like in dire straits, trying to kind of help  lift them out of the situation that they were in,   to help them reengage into the workforce. 

Whether that was dealing with addictions,   whether that was dealing with homelessness,  whether that was dealing with multi barriered   situations, me as part of a team trying to kind  of help take people that were in a really tough   spot and try and help them get to a place of  stability so they could reader the workforce  

and have some sustainable success. And the  thing that was always very pressing, I was   always very aware of and I saw all the time was  the lack of use of a full executive functioning   of their, their minds. Because like we've talked,  I'm not sure if anyone studied biology or anything   like that. When you are talking about kind of  like who can survive, who's robust enough or   what's robust enough to survive. You know, like 

an apocalyptic situation. We talk about like, you   know, like you know, if there was a nuclear  explosion, humans and all the complex animals,   apes and you know, monkeys and dogs wouldn't  survive. But like the hardy ones are cockroaches   and microbes and really simple, basic, kind  of evolutionary creatures are Robust enough to   survive, the less complex, the easier it is to 

survive. And that's kind of how our minds work   when we're talking about executive functioning  in survival mode that when we get into that you   our complexity talking about social situations and  kind of all the things that we need to manage kind   of our long term future, you and those around  us is too complex for us to live with in the,  

in survival mode. It's almost like we retract  to use more primitive parts of our brain like   what's going to refer to in psychology as  the lizard brain which is that very core,   you know, when we are coming out of the  primordial soup kind of functioning.   That's what is calling the shots. Because we  can't. The complex executive functioning are.

community education. A lot of them are probably   not at that level in the workplaces but some of  them are, let's be serious. But realizing that   you are probably managing working beside people  who are working in prolonged survival modes.   They're not making the best decisions, they're  not thinking long term. They're really just   trying to get through the moment, maybe the day.  Ah, at the long part you're seeing impulsiveness,   you're seeing a bit of a self sabotaging 

behavior. You're seeing people who want to   not be in this mode but can't envision what it's  like to come out of it. And here's the thing,   when they do there's a bit of a retraction.  So it's funny, we had a client that lost   their building due to fire m and their staff  managed to work through this temporary working.

We actually, you know, we all this work,   we've now gotten to a place where we in a more  permanent spot. We have desks again. We actually   have computers again like you all this kind of  stuff. There was a bit of a retraction almost   like a bit of a rebelling against kind of the  stability. And people were complaining about,   you know, minor little issues that were so  inconsequential compared to what they had gone  

through. But there almost was a bit of a like just  that retracting or that rebelling against kind of   there being a future. They're being something else  coming. They're being that requiring to use more   executive functioning because they'd gotten  used to prolong survival mode. M so there was   this weird reaction from the leadership team.  They're like, after all they've gone through,   why are they complaining about this stuff 

now? Well, a lot of it was that bit of   that self sabotage just trying to shake off  the survival mode. That norm can be a tough   thing on its own. There's a weird transition  period over survival mode that most people,   hopefully are going to be moving into in this 

year, in 2025. But expect there to be a bit   of a one step forward, two steps back in some  ways or you know, because there is going to be   that bit of that almost like rebelling against  coming a survival mode because it's scary to.

you re. If you're in a workplace that has this   very transactional relationship between employees  where people just come do their job and pay them,   they go home and there's nothing else provided to  them, it's gonna impossible to really deal with   anything. If you know, with prolonged survival  mode, you're going to see dips in productivity,   you're going to see all kinds of major red 

flags. But if you're in a situation where you   can actually do something to help people, part  of it is just realizing that this is kind of a   basic core function and try to understand  enough about the person situation that you   can actually give them little Opportunities,  little ways to kind of help them see that there   is going to be a path beyond survival mode.  So you can't get them out of it, but you can   support them while they try to move beyond it. 

And patience is going to be the most important.

mode. If it's wellness, if it's job security, if  it's consistency, the factors, I think the factors   of the workplace is certainly an area where  businesses can take a bit of that self reflection,   to if this is a problem for you and you want to  actually achieve some level of productivity, then   there are things that you can evaluate and that  you can do within the scope of being an employer.

But knowing how your workplace is contributing  through to the factors, the seven factors that   we've talked about kind of job satisfaction  before is an absolute ideal place to start.

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