Mitch: I mean, we're going. We did all that talking about, uh,
Austin: [laughing]
Mitch: planning, and we didn't plan out the actual-
Austin: I know
Mitch: introduction. It just says intro [laughing]
Austin: I'm Austin,
Mitch: And I'm Mitch,
Austin: and this is Devil Town.
[Devil Town theme music]
Mitch: What is the tagline I put on the logo? I said, "A thematic explanation of Friday Night Lights?"
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: I think that's what I said.
Austin: Yeah. It sound like an actual, like, technical paper.
Mitch: I realized when I was listening to our past recordings, like, at no point in the first two episodes do we say what it is we're doing,
Austin: I know.
Mitch: exactly, so we need to. Right now.
Austin: Yeah, so that we can splice it and put it in front of them.
[both laughing]
Mitch: Essentially, we're taking the tv show Friday Night Lights, we're not going through episode by episode, we're more picking themes and ideas and events from it. And then looking at them, both in the show, but more importantly outside of the show, in the real world.
Austin: Well the show's really good at hand picking things from what actually happens in real life and then making it into a drama.
Mitch: Yeah yeah
Austin: And it feels real. Like, it really does. As real as you can get from NBC.
Mitch: It feels more real than most tv shows.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: 'Cause yeah, there's tons of "ripped from the headlines" tv shows. Those usually aren't the most real feeling.
Austin: Usually produced by Dick Wolf.
Mitch: The Good Wife and, yeah, Law and Order. We were thinking, like, if you wanna talk about "real issues," what tv show gives you material to talk about? I can't think of any that are more appropriate than Friday Night Lights.
Austin: Well I think it's moreso, we also have the background from characters in Friday Night Lights.
Mitch: That's important.
Austin: It feels real to us because we've lived those situations.
Mitch: Some of us.
Austin: Some of them.
Mitch: Some of us, some of them.
Austin: We can all...
Mitch: We did talk about that in the first episode.
Austin: Yeah, yeah, we can empathize and sympathize with the characters because we know who they are.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: I know exactly who these people are.
Mitch: Oh, it's like, King of the Hill and Friday Night Lights are the two shows where it's like, I know a version of every single one of those characters in real life.
Austin: Once we finish with Friday Night Lights we're doing King of the Hill.
Mitch: [laughing] Yeah, I'm doing both at the same time.
Austin: [laughing]
Mitch: Hank Hill was the best running back in the state his senior year of high school, according to him. They didn't win state his senior year, but they went to state, and he refers to himself as the best running back in the state. Which, like, [laughing] there's no way.
Austin: Based off of his posture alone, no.
Mitch: Also, I don't know if you've seen an episode that has young Hank Hill, he looks exactly like himself, just younger. Like, they aged down his face a little bit, and that's him.
Austin: No
Mitch: He was a star.
Austin: Sure, Arlen Texas.
Mitch: Eventually I do wanna talk about the portrayal of football in other things that aren't Friday Night Lights, and I will wanna talk about King of the Hill because... They don't talk about football that often, but when they do I feel like it's, like, as much as it's jokey, they also get what football is in a town like that.
Austin: Yeah. Well, and then we can talk about bad situations and bad movies like Remember the Titans.
Mitch: [laughing] Remember the Titans
Austin: I'm putting it on blast now. It's a shitty movie.
Mitch: It's not a good movie.
Austin: It's a bad movie. Radio: bad movie.
Mitch: I didn't see Radio. That kind of thing... I don't like that kind of thing.
Austin: Oh, Cuba Gooding Jr. just like... it's bad football, it's a bad movie.
Mitch: Cuba Gooding Jr. was in two bad football movie, 'cause he was in Jerry Maguire too.
Austin: I don't consider that one a football movie. I mean it's about football, but moreso it's about, like, paydays and stuff. [whispering] I actually didn't hate Jerry Maguire.
Mitch: I didn't see Jerry Maguire either.
Austin: You said it was a bad movie.
Mitch: Yeah, I know it's a bad movie. I've seen clips. I know how Tom Cruise is on film.
Austin: I hate to say it, but I enjoy watching some Tom Cruise movies.
Mitch: We're not gonna talk about it this episode, but what is your favorite movie portrayal of football? Mine is Bend It Like Beckham. I'm not joking.
Austin: Honestly, Friday Night Lights comes close.
Mitch: The movie? I need to rewatch the movie.
Austin: It does. The problem that Friday Night Lights has is that it goes too visceral.
Mitch: Mhmm
Austin: And the tv show does this too. It shows... The one thing that bothers the living hell out of me is the amount of facial injuries that these kids get. Does not happen in real life. I can not... I did not have...
Mitch: Oh, you mean like, when they take the helmets off they have a bleeding eyebrow, or like...
Austin: Yes!
Mitch: That doesn't happen?
Austin: That doesn't happen. No.
Mitch: Oh, I thought it just did.
Austin: No, it happens occasionally, but not like multiple people on the team each game, no.
Mitch: I was curious about that. Like, when Tim Riggins constantly has a split eyebrow, what is hitting his eyebrow?
Austin: Himself.
Mitch: Is it himself?
Austin: I almost guarantee it. Like, [laughing] in the locker room, we would have guys, and I was not one of them because I don't like hitting my head against things, but they would hit their head up against cinder blocks.
Mitch: With a helmet on or without one?
Austin: Both. Walls, chairs, each other. The amount of times it...
Mitch: [laughing]
Austin: If you didn't get CTE during practice or a game, they probably got it in the locker room, doing just stupid, stupid shit.
Mitch: They'd probably say it's worth it.
Austin: I mean, they probably brainwashed themselves into thinking so through CTE.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Not that we're like-
Mitch: That's also a topic for another episode.
Austin: I mean, it's... [sighing]
Mitch: [laughing]
Austin: The Devil... is football.
Mitch: Yeah, no, that's the point of the show.
[both laughing]
Mitch: "Foosball's the Devil." That's a good movie portrayal.
[both laughing]
Austin: God bless her.
Mitch: What is that? Is that The Waterboy?
Austin: The Waterboy, yeah.
Mitch: Kathy Bates.
Austin: When I was in little league football, boys club football, we had a play called waterboy.
Mitch: What did that entail? I've seen Waterboy before but I don't remember it, I don't know what it's about.
Austin: Just think about, everybody on the defense not having a man, just finding the football and destroying it.
Mitch: Oh, that's how little kids play soccer.
Austin: Yeah, but this like, football.
Mitch: [laughing] Is that...
Austin: They say hut, and then everybody blitzes.
Mitch: I feel like that's how a little kid would play football if you just didn't give them any direction. Like, every little kid wants to go for the ball in every sport.
Austin: That's true. The issue is that you have to teach a kid discipline.
Mitch: Yeah yeah yeah
Austin: But sometimes coach - I say coach, it was my dad [laughing] -
Mitch: He just embraced that chaos.
Austin: He would do this, basically just a sign that we had cups of water and he was pouring them on the field,
Mitch: Oh that's what that is.
Austin: and we would all scream at the top of our lungs.
Mitch: [laughing]
Austin: The other team could not hear the snap count, and then the ball would hike and we would all just go ballistic.
Mitch: I mean, I like that style of coaching. That strikes me as, like, every... That whole genre of 90s kids sports movies? I didn't like a single one of 'em. Like, Little Giants, Heavyweights - I don't know if that's sports or not -
Austin: Heavyweights is not.
Mitch: The Big Green,
Austin: The Big Green was soccer.
Mitch: Yeah, all those, I feel like that's how sports work in those movies. The coach has like, some wacky thing that usually involves them doing something that looks good in movies.
Austin: It was a lot of fun. I will say that.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: I actually kinda like Little Giants.
Mitch: I don't remember it.
Austin: I love Rick Moranis.
Mitch: Oh, I do like Rick Moranis.
Austin: [whispering] I love Rick Moranis so much. And then corporeal Casper is the quarterback. I can't remember what his actual name is. He's like the teenage heartthrob.
Mitch: Yeah, Casper's the quarterback. Ham was in that one, from Sandlot, wasn't he?
Austin: No.
Mitch: What was he in?
Austin: He was in Big Green. He was the goalie.
Mitch: No, he's in a football movie too, though.
Austin: Was he?
Mitch: Uh huh
Austin: What movie?
Mitch: I don't remember. I didn't like any of these movies as a kid.
Austin: The Great Hambino?
[Devil Town theme music]
Austin: But yes, the Devil is football. The Devil is… In this situation, the Devil is…
Mitch: The Devil is racism.
Austin: Racism. That’s a very, just, broad statement-
Mitch: I mean, it’s not wrong.
Austin: It’s not wrong. But I mean… If you were in a debate and somebody said, “give me a specific example,” and you said, “racism.” They’re saying, “You’re not wrong. You’re not right.”
Mitch: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Specifically, we are gonna talk about the type of racism we see in the season one episode called Blinders.
Austin: Blinders.
Mitch: It’s the episode where Coach Mac McGill is being interviewed, and the reporters kinda get him talking about race. And he implies that a player like Smash, like the other black players on the team, wouldn’t make good quarterbacks because they’re uncontrollable, they’re, they’re primal.
Austin: Yeah. They’re more suited to be a running back.
Mitch: He calls them… I can’t remember why he said junkyard dogs. He’s trying to say that they’re…
Austin: They’re more animalistic.
Mitch: violent and aggressive, but uncontrollable to an extent.
Austin: Which is wild because he mentions Voodoo Tatum in that little-
Mitch: Who’s a quarterback.
Austin: that little interview, who is a quarterback. Who is known as a great quarterback in the state of Louisiana, if not the entire Deep South area.
Mitch: Anyway, Mac McGill says that in an interview in the locker room. I was kinda surprised rewatching it, ‘cause I haven’t seen the first season in a while, how it’s not a big deal to most of the players on the team immediately.
Austin: Right.
Mitch: Like, none of them react in the moment, really, much. The assistant coach does, and coach Taylor does. Um, but then we see the repercussions of that afterwards. Smash isn’t initially bothered by this, but Waverley kind of shows him why he should be bothered.
Austin: And then he goes to talk to Coach Mac,
Mitch: Mhmm
Austin: and it does not go the way he wants it to.
Mitch: Tensions rise between the other players on the team and the school in general. Eric Taylor just sits back and does nothing the whole time.
Austin: Yep.
Mitch: And we’re gonna talk - I think we’re gonna make this like a loose two parter - we’re gonna talk about their protest, their walkout next episode.
Austin: Next episode.
Mitch: Today we want to talk about specifically the type of racism that Mac McGill showed, the coded language…
Austin: The - in terms of this, I think it was from that Georgia Southern article - the microagressions.
Mitch: Yeah, that’s what they call it. But yeah, the use of coded language, both intentionally being racist and unconsciously being racist.
Austin: Right.
Mitch: And we wanted to start with data that disproves the assumption that Mac McGill was talking about.
Austin: Yes.
Mitch: ‘Cause like, in all the research we’ve done, I feel like one of the more important things… Before we can really talk about how this type of language is harmful or not harmful, it’s important also to say that it’s not true.
Austin: Right, no…
Mitch: Like, the idea that Mac McGill was saying. ‘Cause in the show, a lot of the characters seem to have the idea that, like, “well yeah, he shouldn’t say it out loud, but is he wrong?” He is.
Austin: Tim Riggins.
Mitch: He is wrong. We have the data to back up the fact that he is one hundred percent incorrect.
Austin: Tim Riggins to a T.
Mitch: Even - we haven’t seen enough yet, but like - Eric kind of gives that impression,
Austin: Yeah.
Mitch: that he doesn’t fully disagree with him.
Austin: Right.
Mitch: He just thinks he needs to be smarter about how he talks. I think it’s important that we, right off the bat, give some proof that that’s not true.
[both laughing]
Austin: We’re making a hard stance on this podcast. It is wrong.
Mitch: It is though, you know? It’s more that I don’t want… I don’t like the idea that, like, - and this isn’t just with this argument about quarterbacks and running backs - I feel like I’ve heard a lot of people says things like, “well, we all know this is true you just can’t say it in polite company.” That’s not what we’re doing, like…
Austin: No.
Mitch: The, the, the primary problem with Coach Mac in the episode, for me, is that he thinks it in the first place.
Austin: Yes.
Mitch: The fact that he said it is also wrong, and he’s putting that hurtful stuff out in the universe and that’s a problem. But I would not say that it wouldn’t be a problem if he would just keep his mouth shut. The fact that he thinks that way is a problem.
Austin: It… As a coach, as a “molder of young men,” yes. It is the ecosystem that breeds this.
Mitch: And that’s one of the things I wanna talk about later is, you know, of course you shouldn’t use that kind of language or say those things in a way that is going to influence people. But if that’s how the coaches are thinking, even if they police their word choices, they’re still gonna communicate that message.
Austin: Yeah.
Mitch: Just in subtler ways, and that’s also a problem. Anyway, you wanna tell us about a specific, kind of, case that disproves this. I don’t know who these people are. Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen?
Austin: Yes.
Mitch: Who are they? What do they do?
Austin: Ok, so, they’re both quarterbacks in the NFL as of right now.
Mitch: Are they friends?
Austin: I don’t think so. Maybe they are? I don’t know. I can text Lamar real quick.
Mitch: [laughing] You’re friends with Lamar?
Austin: [laughing] No, they play for the Ravens and the Bills. Lamar Jackson plays for the Ravens. He was drafted thirty-second in the 2018-2019 draft. 2018 I wanna say. I think that’s what it was. The same draft, Josh Allen was drafted seventh, to the Bills. Now, uh, the reason that we kind of put these up against each other is that, you have Josh Allen, who is primarily - he was from the Mountain West conference, which is like, far west. It’s a bunch of teams that aren’t, honestly, worth a damn. Like, he played for Wyoming. Just, technically D1, not a good school, and not a good football school. But if you look at his measurables, that’s almost specifically why he was drafted. He was six five coming out of college. He was 233 pounds. And he had a big arm, which just means he could probably throw seventy yards standing still.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: I mean, that’s a pretty big arm. He’s got a cannon.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: Lamar Jackson did to, I mean, but that’s one thing that people mentioned. They didn’t mention the fact that… Yeah, whatever…
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: So, um, but, I’m not saying that Josh Allen’s a bad quarterback by any means. I’m not. But what I am saying is that… What I am going to try and talk about is that Lamar Jackson - who had all of… Who was, measurably, not as, like, measurably gifted in terms of, like, height, size, whatever -
Mitch: Who did Lamar Jackson play for in college?
Austin: Louisville.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: Yeah. Big, uh, was it the Big East? I think it may have been the Big East at the time. The ACC? I’m not exactly… I’d have to look that up. But he played much better teams. And his junior year, ended up winning the Heisman. His senior year he was a runner up, to Baker Mayfield.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: So, I mean, he’s got the accolades. He definitely does. But strictly looking at the way that they were characterized coming out of college, going into the draft - you had Josh Allen, who was drafted seventh to the Bills, like I said. Bills were not a good team, that’s the reason that they have the seventh pick in the draft. Drafted for the big arm, they see upside, is what they said a lot at the time.
Mitch: What does that mean?
Austin: Upside is that you… In the NFL you look for these measurables because these are prototypically the quarterbacks that succeed more often.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: So you have these very tall quarterbacks. Six five, six six, six four. Tom Brady’s like six four, six five. You have, let’s see, uh, Ben Rothlesburger’s like six three, six four…
Mitch: And huge.
Austin: Yes. Big, big, big guys. That’s what they’re looking for, is that prototypical size.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: Not seen as a… I don’t think he was seen as a duel threat quarterback. Which is weird because primarily his… he ran just as much as he threw.
Mitch: Yeah yeah
Austin: And his numbers, throwing, do not back up the fact that he has any type of good decision making on the field, what so ever.
Mitch: So he can physically throw the ball far, but he doesn’t have the stats to show that he’s, like, a good passer?
Austin: No a… not…
Mitch: Not a strong passer?
Austin: Not a passer as good as Lamar Jackson, by far.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: Lamar Jackson put up better numbers his junior and senior year. He won the Heisman for it.
Mitch: Which is… Yeah.
Austin: But Josh Allen was not, he was not even close to that. But very rarely was he ever talked about… as, uh, his negatives were, “oh, well he has bad decision making.” They do mention those things,
Mitch: Yeah, yeah.
Austin: It happened a lot more with Lamar Jackson. Now, going to him: coming out of college he was six two. He was like two hundred and, I wanna say, eleven? No like, two hundred and sixteen pounds, something like that. Very fast. I mean, we can get into the language of dual threat quarterbacks, dual threat quarterbacks as opposed to, I mean, as opposed to pocket passers. And how dual threat is almost always associated with a black quarterback.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: We can get into that. In this situation Lamar Jackson definitely was a dual threat quarterback. He ran a ton, he had a ton of rushing numbers. He also threw pretty well in college.
Mitch: But you’re saying, both Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen did things that would get them labelled dual threats,
Austin: Yes.
Mitch: only Lamar Jackson was labelled as such.
Austin: I would have to look that up just to make sure,
Mitch: Not, like, universally, but like, generally.
Austin: Right, yeah. Josh Allen was seen as - ok, he’s got a big arm. That’s measurable. Done. That’s why we’re bringing him into the NFL. He can throw the ball real far. Throw the ball a quarter mile type shit, you know?
Mitch: Yeah yeah yeah
Austin: Lamar Jackson, he was drafted thirty-second. Thirty-second. The end of the first round.
Mitch: Heisman winner.
Austin: Heisman winner. Drafted thirty-second.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: Yeah. That same year that he was drafted, Baker Mayfield was drafted number one, who was a Heisman winner as well.
Mitch: I do support that, ‘cause I do love Bakeer Mayfield.
Austin: [laughing] But, um, so just looking at… We’re gonna look at Lamar Jackson’s numbers real quick.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: So this is looking at his NFL numbers from this last season. Mind you, Lamar Jackson won the MVP.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: So he is, effectively, just through all that shit that people talked about him, under the bus… Even in one of the interviews that he had after one of his games - he threw for like, I forget how many touchdowns it was, it was like three touchdowns or something like that - and the week before somebody said that he was basically just a running back. And he goes, “Not that bad for a running back, huh?” [laughing]
Mitch: That’s why I feel like maybe we kinda skipped a little bit. How was Lamar Jackson characterized in, like, the way commentators talked about him?
Austin: So, um… Bad decision making.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: Freakish athlete was used a lot.
Mitch: Yeah yeah
Austin: His throwing ability was not talked about enough, like, not talked about that much. It was mainly, “he’s primarily a runner.” He throws, obviously, he’s a quarterback.
Mitch: Yeah yeah yeah
Austin: But what a lot of the talk was, was whether or not he was gonna switch to a wide receiver position. And that’s because he has the speed, and he has the athleticism. But they did not see his arm being good enough to play quarterback in the NFL. We’re gonna look at his… Actually, I wanna look at his college numbers.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: Because, just looking at college numbers alone, you can kinda, it’s like a weird thing. It’s not weird, it’s, it’s purely just prejudice, that’s all it is.
Mitch: Mhmm
Austin: As a junior: this is the year that he won
20:40
Austin: As a junior - this is the year that he won... Was it the junior? Let's see... He only played three years at Louisville. So it wasn't his junior year that he won the...
Mitch: It was his sophomore?
Austin: It was his sophomore year-
Mitch: Oh my goodness.
Austin: that he won the Heisman. So we can look at, I mean we can look at both of them to be honest. We'll look at his senior year, just for the sake of it. So his junior year, he had a fifty-nine percent passer, uh, completion rate. Um, he threw for 3,660 yards and his yards per attempt were 8.5, which is a good number.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: 8.5 is not a world beater number, but it's a good number. His average yards per attempt were 8.7, it's right around the same. Now, he threw for twenty-seven touchdowns and ten interceptions, and had 146.6 passer rating, or QB rating, it says rate on here. Both of those are two completely different things.
Mitch: [laughing]
Austin: I do not know the difference. Um, but, in this situation, that number, 146.6. It's a damn good number. So we look at that, he was second in the Heisman race that year. Second or third, I mean. Baker Mayfield won.
Mitch: Yeah yeah
Austin: Baker Mayfield also broke the record for highest completion percentage. It was either that or, like, highest quarterback rating of all time. Now, looking at Josh Allen: Josh Allen's college stats out of Wyoming that same year, 2017, he was also a junior. He had a 53.6 completion percentage. He only threw for 1,812 yards. And his yards per attempt was 6.7. So, far and away, that's a two yard difference. That's, like, a pretty big difference when it comes to that.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: He only had sixteen touchdowns and he had six interceptions. So instantly his touchdown to interception ratio is a 2.3 as opposed to Lamar Jackson's, which was a 2.7.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: You know? But his quarterback rate was 127.8. Now, you can look at his sophomore year, he had better numbers, but him getting older, he regressed. And so, you have to... At that point, they're looking at the upside, at that point. Purely based off of what he can do.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: What he could do, possibility. We've already seen what Lamar Jackson could do, that's win the Heisman.
Mitch: Yeah. But also it's... what, what, what I'm noticing, it's like, the things that Josh Allen seems to be valued for over Lamar Jackson, it's not like Lamar Jackson's not strong in those areas,
Austin: No
Mitch: They like Josh Allen 'cause he's tall and big and strong, Lamar Jackson's also very tall and big and strong, just maybe like an inch or two less than Josh Allen.
Austin: Yeah, both of them are, like, adept runners, too.
Mitch: Yeah, like, they're pretty similar, but in pretty much everything you can measure, except for literally just height and like size of his biceps, Lamar Jackson's better on paper.
Austin: [laughing] Yeah
Mitch: In every single way.
Austin: So...
Mitch: And he's been more tested and had more opportunities to prove himself against harder opponents.
Austin: Oh, yes, definitely. And he did it. Now, when it comes to the NFL, you can look at the numbers. Lamar Jackson is - it's kinda hard to say his rookie year, just because Josh Allen got thrown into the starting position immediately,
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Well, pretty close to immediately. He took over for Nathan Peterman,
Mitch: On the Bills?
Austin: Nathan Peterman's very bad.
Mitch: [laughing]
Austin: He was a placeholder at best. Um, but Josh Allen took over. He was the first quarterback in NFL history to run for at least 95 yards in three consecutive games. There's that.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Still didn't lead the league in quarterback rushing, that was Lamar Jackson [laughing]. But Lamar Jackson holds tons more accolades. I mean, now, look at this last season. We have Josh Allen's stats. In Buffalo this past year, he threw for 3,089 yards, he had twenty touchdowns, and nine interceptions. Not bad, I mean, it's good. He's gotten much better from his rookie season, which he threw for 2,074 yards, ten touchdowns, and twelve interception.
Mitch: [laughing]
Austin: So he's much more efficient. He had an 85.3 QBR, that's quarterback rating. So, honestly, he exceeded what I thought he was gonna be.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: When I saw him going in, I saw exactly what... All I saw was the measurables, I didn't think he knew a damn thing on the field.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: He's, he's proved me wrong, to an extent.
Mitch: I mean, yeah. What we're talking about, though, is like, it's cool, it's great that he had the chance to prove you wrong, good for him. The fact that he was given the chance without having to be subjected to all the judgment and hypothetical criticism, like... There's a lot you could have said about him before he got drafted, that seems like it mostly wasn't said by commentators.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: And they drafted him, and he improved, and that's great. But seeing how they talked about Lamar Jackson, who was, on paper, better in pretty much every way,
Austin: Oh yeah
Mitch: Would a Black quarterback with Josh Allen's stats and style be given that opportunity?
Austin: I can actually give you almost an exact, like, reference point for that. Tyrod Taylor.
Mitch: I don't know who that is.
Austin: Used to play for the Bills.
Mitch: Ok
Austin: Was the starter for the Browns before he got injured and Baker Mayfield took over for him.
Mitch: Ok
Austin: I actually think Tyrod Taylor's a much better quarterback than Josh Allen ever will be. He's known for not taking too many risks.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: But he's incredibly smart, he's incredibly good with the ball, he does not make mistakes, he's just not a risk taker. Um, so, I mean, you can say what you will about that. He led the Bills to their first playoff game in decades, like three years ago. So, I mean, that's pretty big.
Mitch: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, you, you, you... Getting rid of these racial biases and not having these stereotypes is important for it's own sake, I think like... I want these things to go away because they're wrong. But also, it would benefit the teams, like...
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: If you're a coach, you're better off not having these biases, like...
Austin: Well, yeah, in this situation you have Tyrod Taylor, who was seen as, um, the things that… ‘Cause it seems - and this sounds so, so bad - but, I don’t like the way Tyrod Taylor plays because he’s kind of boring.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Same with, same with Josh Allen. Like, they don’t take too many risks.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: But whenever it comes down to it, Tyrod Taylor is, he was ostracized to an extent for being a game manager. For somebody that didn’t take risks. Josh Allen does the same exact thing-
Mitch: He was criticized for things-
Austin: and he has the upside.
Mitch: Yeah, yeah. You know. It’s not… Sometimes it’s gonna work out, sometimes it’s not gonna work out, players are gonna get better or get worse. We don’t know what’s gonna happen. But there’s a very obvious pattern of two players doing similar things, one of them’s given a chance, one of them’s not.
Austin: Yeah.
Mitch: One of them’s talked about positively, one negatively. When you look at any one specific case, and then try to decide, like, well was it worth it, was it not? Did it work out, did it not work out? That really doesn’t matter.
Austin: No
Mitch: Because as a whole, you know, over time, as a coach, as an owner, as a manager, why would you close yourself off from opportunities for things to work out right?
Austin: Exactly.
Mitch: Yeah, and like, it’s very possible that there would be a black quarterback that you could take a chance on and that would not work out, because not everybody’s gonna be everything all the time.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: But you’re setting yourself up for a loss not even taking the chance.
Austin: Right.
Mitch: And lowering the number of people that you’re getting to take a chance on, for reasons that don’t, that don’t prove to be important in the long run.
Austin: This’ll be the last thing that I talk about, ‘cause I’ve gone on way too long, but yeah. Lamar Jackson’s numbers this last year, he won the MVP for this season. The offensive MVP, because he was far and away the best player in the league. I mean, just, throughout the year, most explosive in terms of just, like, massive plays. But, honestly, like, he proved everybody wrong. Like, he was pretty damn efficient at passing.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Which, he had not been able to show that, necessarily, and he just proved everybody wrong. Like, that’s all that happened. He ended up throwing for slightly over Josh Allen did.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: 3,127 yards. So they’re within a hundred yards. But he threw for thirty-six touchdowns and only six interceptions. And he had 113.3 QBR.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Just blew him out of the water. And that team, the Ravens? Were touted as, going in to the playoffs, I for sure thought that they were gonna be in the Superbowl, because he was playing that well. And I have no reason to think that he’s not going to just blow it out of the water this next year.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Like, he’s gotten so much better. And like, based off of what I’ve seen from his rookie season, into this season, you know?
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Josh Allen, it’s been baby steps. Lamar Jackson was like, “Oh, well, I learned so much that first season, I’m just gonna do whatever the fuck I want to now because I understand everything.”
Mitch: Hearing it about a specific person just makes all the stuff that I was reading seem more ridiculous. The idea that a year, two years before all this happened, people were saying that he probably should get moved to wide receiver, like -
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: Now we know, not only would that have been a bad choice, you would have been missing out on the best quarterback that season.
Austin: Yeah. Well, it’s the same thing that’s been happening this last year with Kyler Murray,
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: they weren’t saying that he was gonna go as a wide receiver, they were trying to say he was too small. Which is, honestly… I mean, he’s short, but he’s got a cannon. What the big thing was was they were saying that he was too dumb. And we can get into Wonderlich scores. He scored a twenty, Dan Marino scored a sixteen. Dan Marino is in the hall of fame.
Mitch: John Elway was sub twenty.
Austin: Yeah, Trent Dilfer is like a fourteen.
Mitch: Yeah. Well and also-
Austin: Are you fucking kidding me?
Mitch: Some of the… I don’t remember names because I don’t actually know anything about football, but some of the highest scores I saw were good quarterbacks, not the best quarterbacks in the world. Like,
Austin: Ryan Fitzpatrick
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Ryan Fitzpatrick is a… He… They call his Fitzmagic because there was like a three game stretch where he threw for three or four hundred yards with the Buccaneers. And then just disappeared. He’s from Harvard. Incredibly intelligent.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: There’s a reason he’s been playing for eight different teams in his career. It’s because he doesn’t… he can’t keep it up.
Mitch: And this is what… I said this earlier, I said it off mic, but like, the Wonderlich strikes me as one of those things that, like, it’s a useful tool when you need an excuse or a reason. If there’s somebody that they want as a quarterback, they’re not gonna let a low Wonderlich keep them from getting them,
Austin: No
Mitch: What they will use it as is, if there’s somebody that they’re looking for an excuse not to take, “well, he has a low Wonderlich score.”
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: So, like, yeah, it’s just waiting, if you need some plausible deniability on why you are choosing or not choosing somebody. If you want somebody, and you aren’t taking it into account, no one’s ever gonna mention it.
Austin: No
Mitch: I feel like that goes into what I wanna talk about next, which is: you know, you just fully convinced me with Lamar Jackson, how wrong all the assumptions people made about him were. The sad reality is, it doesn’t matter.
Austin: I know.
Mitch: Those commentators who said that he wasn’t gonna make it before he got drafted, they didn’t change their minds now that he proved them wrong. I was looking at, kinda like, the history of some of these stereotypes.
Austin: Well, that was just one example, this happens…
Mitch: But that’s what I’m saying. You can’t disprove it.
Austin: Right,
Mitch: These people that hold these biases, if you sit them down and show them the stats and prove them wrong, it’s not gonna change their mind.
Austin: No
Mitch: And, and, and it just goes to show that, like, there are definitely some people who are, internally, know that they have racist bias. There are a lot of people who don’t realize it about themselves. Like, we all have implicit bias just because we have heard the same things our whole lives. Everybody has grown up in the same system,
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: history shows that even when those things are proven wrong, even when they’re proven so wrong for so long that the bias disappears, the racism doesn’t go away. It’s just replaced by another one.
Austin: No, it evolves.
Mitch: Yeah, the evolution. I didn’t… I hadn’t read about football specifically, you know… I was aware of what these biases were, that, you know, Black players were seen as faster and stronger, but more animalistic, less intelligent. White players were seen as harder workers and smarter and more committed and good managers and team players. Those stereotypes weren’t always true in football. Before football was integrated, the common stereotype that, like, coaches would give as reasons they weren’t wanting to draft Black players is they didn’t think they were as athletic as white players. They were like, “Well, you know, we would cast…” Cast…
[both laughing]
Mitch: “We would put Black players on our team, but they’re not as fast as white players, or they can’t throw as far, or they’re…” They would say that, like, they couldn’t… that their bones and joints were weaker so they couldn’t take as much damage over time.
Austin: Which is the complete opposite of what, like recent…
Mitch: So then in the forties and fifties and sixties, when integration does start to happen in sports in general, obviously all that was proven wrong. Then they replaced it with, “well, yeah, no, we know that they’re just as athletic, but they’re not as smart.” And then you prove that that’ wrong, and they’re like, “Well, yeah, we know that they’re just as strong and just as smart, but they’re not as good at team cohesion and reading the field.” And then you prove that wrong, and it’s like… There’s always gonna be something.
Austin: It’s always going to evolve, they’re always going to find something to be prejudiced about.
Mitch: Which is why I think it’s important to, you know, take these ideas… ‘Cause yea, you have somebody like Coach Mac in the show, where it seems like he’s pretty aware of what his biases are, and he doesn’t think they’re a problem. I think it’s also important for somebody, you know, maybe like Coach Taylor, who doesn’t realize how ingrained these biases are, just acknowledging the fact that some of these stereotypes have not existed for that long. And, you know, they seem really set in stone and they seem so universal now, but those stereotypes weren’t the same forty years ago, or eighty years ago. They won’t be the same forty years from now. So there’s really no reason to hold on to them. Like, if you discover that there is a bias that you didn’t realize you were holding, just know that it’s not universal. It’s not, like… yeah…
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: That’s what’s frustrating to me reading this, is how recently some of these assumptions started appearing,
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: for how strong they are.
Austin: Yeah. Well, and it… [sighing] It’s so frustrating
Mitch: And the fact that… you know, uh, I can’t remember his name, Doug Wilson? Is he the first Black quarterback in the NFL to go to the Superbowl?
Austin: Uhh, yes, played for the Redskins.
Mitch: It was in the late 80s. Like, if this were to work out in the optimistic way, of like, “Well…”
Austin: Doug Williams, I think.
Mitch: Doug Williams. Is that now what I said?
Austin: You said Doug Wilson.
Mitch: Oh. Doug Williams, it is. It’s Doug Williams. Yeah, this idea - and you see it in the tv show a little bit, of, you know, it’s the responsibility of these players to prove them wrong. The players in this situation are between a rock and a hard place, it’s a lose lose.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: If that was ever gonna work, this quarterback debate would’ve ended in 1988 when a Black quarterback won the Superbowl, but it didn’t. It flared up and got really heated fourteen years later, when they finally got more than one Black quarterback at a time in the NFL.
Austin: Well, before that, yeah, you would’ve had Warren Moon, you would’ve had Randal Cunningham, you would’ve had, um…
Mitch: But that’s why I think the responsibility is definitely on the people in power. There is nothing that these players can do to fix this problem. They are put in a really tough position where they’re constantly having to decide whether they’re going to try to fight against stereotypes or fulfill them, and then deal with the guilt of having fulfilled a stereotype. Whatever they do, they’re not gonna change the fact that these stereotypes exist. The only people that can change it are the people who are actually in power, being willing to admit that they have had them in the past and actively trying to change them.
Austin: This is exactly where it falls into the show, where you have Smash, who is in a situation where he tells Wav that it’s not that big of a deal,
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: and then she’s like, “No, it is.” And he said, “Well, I’m gonna get angry,” basically. And she said, “Well, you can’t do that.”
Mitch: Yeah. And we see it in the bank with his mom, not football related. He’s not wrong to be angry, but he can’t be. He’s in a lose lose. He can do what he feels is right, and know that he is “hurting the cause,” or he can put in way more effort than everybody else has to not only be the best football player but also fighting these things from within his own team. It’s setting him up for failure no matter what. And, while he’s going through all this, setting him up for a lot of internal turmoil and, like, mental hardship that other players don’t have to put up with. It’s not…
Austin: Well, and, this is, this is… This happens essentially right after he got caught taking steroids.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: So, like, the amount of just shit that he’s flying through.
Mitch: And the expectation that if they’re gonna they have to be perfect.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: ‘Cause yeah, it’s… Tim Riggins is not… Tim Riggins doesn’t have to be perfect for people to want the best for him.
Austin: Right
Mitch: But someone like Smash knows that the minute that he gives anybody a reason not to believe in him, they’re not going to anymore.
Austin: Tyrod Taylor said that exact same thing.
Mitch: Ughh
Austin: He said, basically, I think the last line that he was quoted on was, “We have to be as close to perfect as we can be.”
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: And that… it’s sad.
Mitch: It is. It’s sad. And that’s why I don’t like, like, you know - and the show does this a little bit - the focus of these stories should be the players, but I don’t want the implication to ever be that the players are responsible for fixing the problem. ‘Cause they can’t. The system has been set up in a way that there’s nothing that they can do to fix it. It frustrates me a little bit, watching the show, ‘cause I like Eric Taylor the character, I’m like rooting for him - his immediate first response is in private to Tammy, bu this first response is, “well I know Mac isn’t racist, so this whole thing needs to blow over.” That is exactly the kind of attitude that means these things never change. And the fact that we watched that whole episode and this goes on for, you know, days, maybe close to a week, and he never talks to Smash or any other Black player on his team,
Austin: Nope
Mitch: His immediate response is, if he to acknowledge that Mac might have some racial bias, he’s admitting that he has worked with and hired, or at least worked with, a racist. And he can’t admit that to himself, so his solution is, “Well I know that I can’t be racist, I can’t be working with a racist, that’s impossible because I’m not a racist, so they must just be making it up, or exaggerating, or overreacting, or whining.”
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: That’s a, that’s a really, that’s a really easy trap to fall into, but that only makes the situation worse.
Austin: My favorite part of his arc, which is nigh non-existent for an entire episode,
Mitch: [laughing] yeah yeah yeah
Austin: is, you have some fairly, not good but poignant things that he says throughout the show, and he basically just comes in and like says them and then disappears.
Mitch: yeah yeah yeah
Austin: There’s no, like, actual character development for him.
Mitch: For Mac or for Taylor?
Austin: For Taylor. It is… He comes in and that’s all you get of his character. But my favorite part of that whole thing was when they do… the start of the walkout. It’s when Mac tries to get them to move. And they do that shot of him just with his hands on his head, and he has the whistle in his mouth and he just… You can see it in his face, he’s just like, “Ahhhh shit.”
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: “I fucked up”
Mitch: That’s when he realizes that this is happening without him.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: Like, he had an opportunity to be a part of whatever was going to happen, and he missed the boat.
Austin: Oh yeah, yeah
Mitch: Like, it is happening without him and now he’s gotta play catch up.
Austin: Mhmm
[Devil Town theme music]
Mitch: On thing that is not talked about in the show - and it doesn’t fit into the story of the show - that I was… like, some of the papers that I was reading… One of the ways that this affects people is not just in whether they get drafted or not. I’m not as familiar with football as a sport, so I didn’t realize how much disparity there is in, you know, when you… when there is all this pressure for Black players to be put away from quarterback, because of the way that football is set up, that’s also putting them away from leadership roles, also the highest paying.
Austin: Mhmm. Yes.
Mitch: And that, like, it… It leads to this system where there are, you know… I think the stats… I have it written down. In 2007, it’s the stat when the paper I was reading is from, seventy percent of the NFL’s players were Black, only nineteen percent of quarterbacks were Black. The rate for coaching staffs is even lower. The rate for, like, behind-
Austin: Owners
Mitch: Owners, and professionals that aren’t athletes, is even lower. These biases are not only hurting the players in their positions on the field, they’re also standing in the way of -
Austin: Executive positions
Mitch: Black players moving into the leadership of the sport. Because quarterbacks are the leaders on the field,
Austin: Right
Mitch: coaches are the leaders, the stereotypes that say that a Black player is more suited for a physical position like running back and less for an intelligent position like quarterback… How is that player eventually going to build up the reputation that it takes to become a coach?
Austin: It is, it is… You can’t.
Mitch: You can’t. It’s set up against them.
Austin: It is from the very beginning. And I think it was that Young Turks video that I found, they pulled a stat that was, I think it was close to sixty-four percent of Black quarterbacks in high school decide to change from quarterback to some other position, most likely receiver or running back, when they go to college.
Mitch: That crazy.
Austin: And it’s because they don’t see a future in it. Not because they can’t make it, but because they are taught that they shouldn’t be able to.
Mitch: That’s what… These things being ingrained,
Austin: And it, it…
Mitch: It’s not like it’s just, white people had these ideas because they’re secretly racist, these are ideas that are ingrained in everyone.
Austin: Everything. And just imagine… Yeah, it’s not just football, that’s, that’s…
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: indicative of everything.
Mitch: So then you have, when you’re trying to hire a new coach for your football team, there are probably gonna be fewer Black applicants, because there are fewer Black people that have been given the path to try to be a coach.
Austin: Exactly. Just thinking of, if it is that ingrained, and people getting pressured, like, Black athletes getting pressured into doing that when they go from high school into college, or whether they think that that’s what they need to do so that they can succeed,
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: it is, it is ingrained in them so early, not even close to the age that they are supposed to be professional. Not in sports, but like, in life in general.
Mitch: And you can even go back further, how many quarterbacks… They’re talking about Jason Street, how he was working with him as a quarterback from when he was in, like, little league football. Some of this is happening when kids are nine and ten years old.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: You’re already falling into the pattern of, you’re more suited to be quarterback, you’re more suited to be something else. And, you know, we like to look at it and think that it’s just based on physicality, but it’s not.
Austin: No, it’s not.
Mitch: You know, you’re maybe gonna be a kicker versus a lineman based on physicality, but for a lot of things, it’s not. It’s purely… There’s no ten year old that is set in stone only suited to be one thing or another.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: Kids at that age should be given the freedom to explore-
Austin: Do whatever they want to.
Mitch: and you know they’re not.
Austin: This… We could open up a can of worms on pretty much every aspect of this.
Mitch: That’s what… I didn’t think we had time to get into it, but I hadn’t thought about it in terms of leadership and power and money.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: How, you know, it’s not just about having to put up with it while you’re playing, it’s also, you know… There’s a lot, you know… NFL players make pretty good money across the board. The lowest paid NFL player is still making pretty good money. But the more proportionally Black a position is, the lower that position is paid.
Austin: Mhmm
Mitch: The higher… Like, quarterback is the most likely to be white of all the positions in football,
Austin: It’s the highest paid.
Mitch: and they are definitely the highest paid.
Austin: One that we’re looking at now, and it’s a fairly recent thing in the NFL, but running backs, running backs recently have been deemed expendable.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: Essentially
Mitch: Well yeah, and that’s some of the language I was reading in one paper, was when integration first happened. In the first days of integration in football, in college, there was… Some of these coaches were put in a catch-22, where like, you know, not every single one of them was trying to do it the wrong way. It was an impossible situation. But, when integration was first starting to happen, you’d have coaches in the north, or in places that were, you know, less outwardly racist, some of them wanted to draft Black players and would draft Black players but they knew that if they played a team in the south, they were opening themselves up to a lot of problems. Both in their school… So you have the pressure of, you know, if you put too many Black players on your team, you’re gonna make white students not wanna go to the school anymore, or you’re going to put them in danger when you take them to these other towns you travel to. They had a lot of what this paper calls gentlemen’s agreements with other schools that integrated teams would only play their white players when they were playing non-integrated teams. For years this happened.
Austin: Oh my god.
Mitch: So, if you’re a coach, let’s say you’re a coach, hypothetically, who’s not opposed to Black players, if you know that for half of you’re season you’re not gonna be allowed to play them because you have this gentlemen’s agreement with non-integrated schools, you’re not gonna put a Black player at quarterback, you’re gonna put him at kicker or a lineman where you can put him in and out, game to game, and it’s not gonna ruin your team. So for the first, you know, decade or two of integration in college football, the players that were let into college football were only let in in what wer non-essential roles.
Austin: Right.
Mitch: And that doesn’t… You know, if that’s how it starts, that doesn’t just go away,
Austin: No
Mitch: once the barriers come down. That’s a part of the history that I did not know. This whole section of this paper is… The one that I saved that I said I’m gonna come back to for other episodes, it’s called Keep the Quarterback White: Rush Limbaugh’s Social Construction of the Quarterback, it was written by Jennifer Van Otterloo, from the Undergraduate Research Journal at the University of Northern Colorado.
Austin: Ok.
Mitch: Don’t know who she is, or what this college is, but this paper is incredible. Like, just as a piece of writing about football. That is where I pulled all the history that I did not know. The fact that, like, Darryl Hill, now he is termed the Jackie Robinson of college football, because he was the first one to get major playing time in a vital position, but he would make a public statement before they play in “racist towns” where he said publicly, “I am not trying to be the Jackie Robinson of football.” [laughing] Because he knew that he couldn’t, like…
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: There was no breaking of the color barrier in football, it was a trickle of, “We’ll let a few in, but only in the least essential positions.” And it took decades for it to fully be integrated. So now you look at the league and most of the players are Black, but you can still see the patterns
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: of that system. The patterns have not gone away, even though the percentages have changed.
Austin: Yes.
Mitch: That was new information to me, but just very frustrating to read about [laughing]
Austin: Right. One, I think that… Like, there’s a big elephant in the room, not necessarily in our room, but [laughing].
Mitch: In this room?
Austin: But in this conversation. And I think we’re gonna touch on it a lot more in this next episode. But we can talk about the, the… and it plays into this false narrative that Black players aren’t good enough to be a quarterback, or not smart enough, or what have you. Colin Kaepernick.
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: That whole argument. And there is a great, great video from Jon Bois,
Mitch: Yes, it’s such a good video.
Austin: it’s like nine minutes long, and it’s basically saying that, like, Colin Kaepernick, not the best quarterback in the league, but very competent and much better than most.
Mitch: The point is that he is good enough that he would be playing if…
Austin: He should be starting somewhere.
Mitch: Any excuse that is about, you know, his playing or his stats, is an excuse.
Austin: It is.
Mitch: The decision was made based on his politics and his race,
Austin: Right
Mitch: the justification was his stats, but you know, you can prove on paper that those are not a valid reason, they’re just an excuse.
Austin: Yeah. It’s just an excuse.
Mitch: We are running long.
Austin: Oh yeah.
Mitch: I do wanna talk, before we end it - Most of the research both of us were able to find was focused on professional and some college, I wasn’t able to find a lot about high school. One of the things I did find was this paper… I found this paper from 2010, Racism in Sports in Southeast Georgia, which is also from Georgia Southern University,
Austin: Just killing it.
Mitch: I know. The researcher was Michael Landon Nelson. He went into five counties in southeast Georgia and interviewed high school athletes themselves, mostly Black, and some of their quotes were really, like… put all this theoretical talk into, like, really troubling context. Because when you look at how it actually affects high school kids… We know that it is a lose lose, there is no winning here, they’re in an impossible situation, teenagers don’t have the… can’t mentally handle that. So what ends up happening, he did this interview in five counties, interviewed hundreds of high school students. When he asked them if they ever felt like they had been discriminated against at any time while playing a sport, they overwhelmingly said no. Very few of these kids said that they felt like they had faced discrimination. When he asked them later, in a second interview, if they thought that racial discrimination was a problem in athletics in general, and he would ask them about other schools in the area, they were almost unanimous in saying, like, “yes, this is obviously a big problem.” And we see this in the show, too, like… If you’re a teenager and you have been working with these adults, you trust them, you like them, you wanna think that they have your best interest at heart. They’re going to not see a lot of these problems.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: I’m gonna quote a little bit. He says that, “for these student athletes, they know and like and trust their coaches, and are taught to think of racism as a thing you do and are.” Which means it’s really impossible for these kids to really see the problem as it exists. Which is why I think a lot of the time you see it becoming an issue that gets talked about is at the college and professional level, because that’s… I think a lot of the places where this problem rears its head in high school sports, nobody is talking about it because it’s not seen as a problem.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: ‘Cause what kind of sixteen year old is gonna… what kind of sixteen year old is even gonna have the mental maturity to recognize what’s happening, much less to have the strength and courage to call it out when they do realize it.
Austin: Yeah. They all assume the best.
Mitch: Yeah. And they’re not wrong to, you want to. It’s the adult in that situation, especially in public education, these kids shouldn’t have to fix this problem.
Austin: No
Mitch: The fact that, like, this is coming from public school teachers is heartbreaking to me.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: ‘Cause yeah, to read these… These kids in these interviews can say on one hand, they’ve never experienced racism, and on the other hand, racism’s obviously a huge problem, and not realize it yet. They’re just too young.
Austin: Well and… What I think we can take away from this whole thing is like… We have these movies - and I’m not saying there aren’t movies that talk about it, you know… But there’s tons of movies that like to, like, say that there’s an easy fix to all this. Or that it doesn’t exist. You know?
Mitch: Yeah
Austin: When in reality, football is not exempt from the problems that this nation has been, like, that it’s been started on.
Mitch: Yeah. That’s one of the things that I like about Friday Night Lights, because of the other movies and tv shows that try to tackle this, it’s presented as like, “well, football’s the place where we can forget all these problems exist.” Remember the Titans. That’s just so… That’s such a, a, a unrealistic idea. That you can, like, “We know that society is racist, and society as a whole has these biases, but on the football field everybody’s equal. We don’t see color.” So obviously not true.
Austin: No.
Mitch: And ignoring it doesn’t help anybody.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: That's pretty much all I have. Oh, what I was gonna say with these high school things. The other reason I think this is really hard for high school kids is, a lot of times these stereotypes are not seen as being negative things. A lot of these stereotypes are.. can be the positive, where it's the flip side... Whereas, if you're a high school kid and you're super, super fast, the fact that people assume that you're gonna be fast because you're Black, that might not feel like a negative to a high school kid.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: They might not be aware of the fact that, you know, most of these things are a coin where there's two sides, and everybody that's assuming that they're naturally gonna be fast because they're Black is probably also gonna assume that they're not smart because they're Black.
Austin: Mhmm
Mitch: But, you know, it's... A lot of these stereotypes are... can be positive things. We see it with - not in sports, but you know - the stereotype that East Asian people are naturally intelligent means they're given less grace when they are not naturally intelligent.
Austin: Yes.
Mitch: It also implies that they're not athletic, or they're not... uh, other things that aren't academic. For someone like Smash, obviously he has a problem with the way Mac was talking about them,
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: but it's not like that was the first time that anybody's implied that he was, uh, stronger, faster, naturally, than other people on the field. And when he heard those things about himself before this incident,
Austin: Oh, he loved it.
Mitch: he loved that.
Austin: Yeah.
Mitch: He wasn't wrong to do that. He was just a little bit blind to the fact that for everything that he heard and interpreted well, there were other stereotypes that he wasn't noticing, that were going against him.
Austin: Exactly, that nobody's actually gonna say out loud.
Mitch: Yeah.
Austin: Yeah.
Mitch: That's... Reading all this, it's, it's, it's, uh... It doesn't matter if the stereotype is positive or negative, the stereotype existing is a problem.
Austin: Yeah
Mitch: And it is not a solution to point to cases of positive stereotypes and be like, "Well look, it's even, we're good now, right?" They do that in the show a little bit, of like, in Tammy Taylor's town hall meeting.
Austin: [sighing]
Mitch: The fact that one of the Black players makes an assumption about a white player, to all the white kids in - well, not all the white kids... To the white kids in the bleachers, they're like, "Oh, you said something negative about white people. We're on even ground. We're all even, everything's good. You're racist against us, we're racist against you, you can't say that there's a problem anymore." It's like, that's not, you know-
Austin: No
Mitch: There are gonna be times where these stereotypes look positive, and there are times when they're proven right and wrong, that can never take away the fact that it's a problem.
Austin: Exactly
Mitch: It's, uh... yeah... I don't know if that made sense. I think it did.
Austin: Seemed like it did.
Mitch: Ok.
Austin: Seemed like it was cogent.
Mitch: That was a lot.
Austin: Oh yeah, a lot a lot.
Mitch: [laughing] I think it's probably fifty-five minutes of, like, solid talking.
Austin: Football 101!
Mitch: Football 101 with Expert Austin.
Austin: Quick.
Mitch: I have a question for you.
Austin: This is Football Expert Austin?
Mitch: Yes.
Austin: Expert Austin, excuse me.
Mitch: This is Football Idiot Mitch asking Football Expert Austin a question about Football.
Austin: [laughing] Ok
Mitch: What is a waiver wire?
Austin: Waiver wire?
Mitch: Yeah, I don't know what that is.
Austin: Ohhhh, huh, ok, waiver wire has to do with... um...
Mitch: I thought you were an expert.
Austin: That's pro's.
Mitch: I don't know what it is. I don't know what this means.
Austin: No no no no like, that's a hard one, because it is, it's... you don't hear about it much. So, it has to do with, uh, whether or not the player on a team has been waived or not.
Mitch: What does waived mean?
Austin: Like, a team can waive their contract.
Mitch: Ohhh
Austin: And so, they basically can, like, say, "Ok, like, your contract's null and void, you can now sign with whoever, pretty much."
Mitch: Yeah, ok. Free agent?
Austin: Not necessarily.
Mitch: Oh.
Austin: Free agency is when your contract expires.
Mitch: Oh ok.
Austin: I would assume - and this is purely based on what I'm, like, just kind of piecing things together -
Mitch: You're the expert.
Austin: [laughing] I thought you were gonna talk more... Not, not contracts [laughing]
Mitch: I'm telling you, I have in my Google Doc, if I hear a term and I don't know what it means, I write it down. I heard somebody say waiver wire-
Austin: I played high school football, waiver wires didn't exist!
Mitch: But when I wrote it down, I didn't know if waiver wire was a play or if it was a, like, I didn't know!
[both laughing]
Mitch: You could have told me waiver wire was a position and I would have believed you.
Austin: So I'm gonna look this shit up right now. We're gonna see if it's right. Waiver wire, in my head based off of what I can piece together. Waiver wire is when somebody is waived, they're put on a list that says they are available.
Mitch: Ok
Austin: Ok? The waiver wire. There's like a-
Mitch: What is the wire?
Austin: Kind of like, radio wire-
Mitch: Ohhhh ok ok ok ok
Austin: Yeah, there's like the trade wire, things like that.
Mitch: We're putting out a list of-
Austin: Exactly
Mitch: Ok
Austin: That's what I think it is. We're gonna look this up to see if I'm correct.
Mitch: I didn't... This little segment, I didn't know it was gonna be like a quiz for you. [laughing] Like, we're gonna look and see if you were right or not.
Austin: If you had said anything about, like, a like, um...
Mitch: I can find other things.
Austin: No no no no, we're done. One second-
Mitch: No, we're done.
Austin: We're done! I wanna know what it is!
[pause]
Austin: It may be fantasy football. Oh! Ok, no no no, I'm kind of right. The waiver wire is a tool used in professional sports used to gauge a team's interest in a certain player. The waiver wire is also the official means that the teams have to make moves when the trade deadline has already passed. In fantasy football, waiver wire refers to the same thing: a list of players still available for acquisition in your fantasy league. So, uh [mumbling] The NFL waiver wire is literally an email passed among teams to determine their interest in that player.
Mitch: It seems impossible, but I feel like I know less.
Austin: [laughing] Let's see, um...
Mitch: I think I get it.
Austin: [reading] "Can someone please explain to me how the waiver wire works? Fantasy football."
Mitch: [laughing] Listen to our podcast, we won't explain it to you.
Austin: [laughing] Let's see. [reading] "Waivers are an NFL labor management procedure by which a team makes an American football player's contract or NFL rights available to all other teams."
Mitch: I'm gonna say, here and now, line in the sand-
Austin: Don't talk about contracts!
Mitch: Even if we watch the part of the show where Jason Street becomes like an agent or whatever he is, we are not doing any episode about all of that. [laughing]
Austin: Oh fuck no.
Mitch: I don't care.
Austin: It's boring.
Mitch: You cannot make me care about that.
Austin: Nope, it's boring, I don't want it. Talk about, like, the Xs and Os, not money. I don't want it.
Mitch: I don't want it.
Austin: I don't know anything about it. I like the actual act of football. Not people getting paid for it. I mean, I like people getting paid for it, obviously.
Mitch: Yeah, I want them to get paid, I just don't want to hear about it.
Austin: Yes. Don't show me numbers.
[both laughing]
Mitch: Well I'm sorry. I didn't know that's what it was. That's why I asked.
Austin: Give me like a, give me like a lob. Give me a lob. Do you have like an easy question?
Mitch: I closed out my thing. No, you kind of exhausted my questions. Last week you told me about running backs versus blocking backs.
Austin: Right. There's no way a waiver wire was in that book, though.
Mitch: No, I don't know where I got it from.
Austin: [laughing]
Mitch: The ether. The book does mention flankers. What position is that?
Austin: A flanker is a nonexistent position now. A flanker is usually a receiver who sits on the edge of the line. Usually. Sometimes split out, to where its like an inside receiver type thing. But it's usually in a running type of offense.
Mitch: Mhmm
Austin: Usually, from what I can, like, gather.
Mitch: [gasp] I have a question. I'm gonna edit it all that out and we'll save it.
Austin: Yes!
Mitch: In, uh, Blinders.
Austin: Ok
Mitch: The reason this all comes up in the first place, with Mac and the interview, is because they ask him why Smash wasn't considered as a quarterback. And the reason they ask that is because they do that play where Matt pitches to Tim, who pitches to Smash, who throws to Matt. Have you ever seen that happen?
Austin: Yes. Happened in the Superbowl.
Mitch: Did it really?
Austin: Yes. The Eagles scored on it, and it was like, they called it the Philly Special.
Mitch: I saw that in the show and it was like, super cool, but like I said when we were watching it, was it just an excuse to give all the named players a play together?
Austin: Oh that's definitely what it was.
Mitch: [laughing] I didn't think it ever really happened.
Austin: That's definitely what it was. Because most of the time, what ends up happening is that the running back in the situation, the quarterback would pitch it to Smash, Smash would throw it to a receiver who was running around, and the receiver would flick it to him.
Mitch: Have you ever seen it where the quarterback is the one who receives the pass?
Austin: All the time.
Mitch: Ahhh! That's crazy.
Austin: OU did it this last year. The Browns did it with Baker Mayfield his rookie year. Philly won, I think scored the game winning touchdown in the Superbowl to win it. We ran that play in high school. But the Eagles were the ones that got popular off of it, because they called it the Philly Special when they ran it in the fucking Superbowl.
[both laughing]
Mitch: Football is dumb.
Austin: [laughing] Yes, is it.
Mitch: All right, I think that's all we have.
Austin: Ok.
[Devil Town theme music]