DGC Ep 465: LoZ Majora's Mask (part three)

Hello and welcome back to Dev Game Club, the weekly podcast in which two veteran game developers look at games from the past to discuss their relevance and impact today. I'm Brett Duval and I'm joined as always by my co-host, a man who just has to get himself together and save those other three Tim Longo. Those other three what? We don't know. Three sandwiches we we're not

Um Is that after after you save the spirit from That is after you save the Spirit in the swamp dungeon. That's sequence, by the way, afterwards. Yeah, we should we can just leap right into that. Why not? Majora's massive. I mean that is one thing actually and not a topic we talked about before, but The thing that I I'm I found kind of remarkable is like literally every time I put on that Deku mask.

And it's like this horror show of like, you know, it's just like like the camera's doing weird Dutch angles and he's like, you know put his hand up to the side of his head and you can sort of see these like the I don't know, the fire in his eyes or something. It just like it looks like he's in terrible pain. Which maybe he is. He's kinda shrunk down after that. So maybe his body's like getting compressed.

Um, maybe it is really painful like in um American Werewolf in London or something where it's just like, what is going on here?

Um and every time it's like that. But yeah, the the tone of the end of the swamp dungeon is sort of similar where it's like you're in this weird liminal space. You can sort of hear this song in a dis from the distance. It's it's very strange. It's strange stuff. Yeah, you can skip uh you might know this, but you can skip found that today, yeah. Which I was thank goodness because I focused on the force so much. It adds a it adds a few seconds every time you're like

Really? Again. Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah, the the the the I'll use that ending sequence there and then we should go back we should go back and talk about the dungeon. Yeah, we'll talk about the dungeon, but it's start at the end. Yeah, but I think it is w we were talk I think some folks were talking about this on Discord and and um and maybe we got an email last week about it too, but yeah.

The surreal nature of this, I mean, Zelda as a franchise is already pretty weird at times. Um and for various reasons. Or not I guess I guess I won't say weird, but it's just very specific. Um And the surreal nature of this one, like, is such a m has such a multiplying effect on top of that. Um, and they're also like kind of

because we know they're reusing so many things, it's like they're trying to be really creative with what they have. So it's it's really interesting. So that ending sequence, I think it takes place basically in like a circular waterfall basin. And That creature that you save who is trapped in the mass. It is super weird and it talks like a whale. Then it sings and gives you a song. But it's all just so vague. And so and I think somebody brought up Twin Peaks.

Um that's right. That was what the email was about. Yeah, right, right. Um and I apologize I don't remember. Yeah, I f I uh so I mean I'm starting to understand wh why the why the person that emailed in I'm blanking on who it was. Drew. Well, his name is Drew. Drew, right. Why what Drew was talking about there. Because now that Drew has mentioned that, I'm looking at the game through a different lens.

an additional lens and that sequence. The other sequence, oh, that I don't want to spoil for you that's that cards. Guns. Don't worry about it. Yeah. Well when you get the Goron Mask, which I which I have done

that sequence is similarly like surreal. Um and and and I thought very, very interesting. And the thing that I'm loving about this game, though there's things I'm not loving about the things that I love about the game are very much that they are for whatever reason Feeling the freedom to do different stuff. Yeah. With it than I think traditional quote unquote traditional Zeldas would do to be more safe, you know,'cause the Zelda has a bit of a formula.

Even even Breath of the Wild being an open world game, they're still it's still a Zelda game in mo in most ways. Right. And they're safe about it. But

This one is not safe. It's not safe, but I also think it's a production reality of like They don't they're not animating a dude, you know, getting down into a crouch and telling you his story. Like they don't have to make a story that makes sense, right? They can just kind of be like, and then this dreamlike thing happened where a Tall man sang to me out for some we a very weirdly shaped man as well. I may uh

Yeah um, you know, sang at me from the distance in this fog. Yeah, it was totally that's a good that's a good poll. Very much that kind of style of like, what is this I'm looking at? You know, like a like a You know, sort of a Seuss thing, but not as kind of, I don't know, noodley. Um

But uh yeah, I mean just like you're like w I don't understand what I'm looking at here. But okay okay, but it's never on the screen that long. It's through a fog, it's in this w sort of white cloudy liminal space and you're just like Okay, well that happened. You know, at the end of it you're like, Oh okay, you know, I don't um Yeah, you have no idea what to do with that song now too. Right, yeah. Um and it's like c it's a weird something of the order, song of the order.

Yeah, right. Or the oath or something. The oath of the order. Yeah, the oath of the order. Which is like What? Is that a is that a localization thing? What is going on there? Um but it's mysterious, which I like. Uh yeah, to your point, no, I think it's I think we're seeing production reality constraints all through this game. But I guess the the other part of for me though is that lots of games have production realities constrained.

And you just have to choose you still have to make decisions on how you're gonna approach those. And they with almost every step when they had a production reality issue. Or decision they needed to make, they went weird with it. You know, it's like they could have chosen other things. I I mean there's other reasons why you wouldn't do this, but they could have just had a tech.

scroll, you know, for some of this stuff if they you then you have localization problems. The mask guy show up. Yeah, there's lots of things they could have done. Which would've fit you know, fit thematically with well. It would have also like introduced that guy, you know, as like

s like tied into all what's all that's going on, like in a way that you know would would also feel weird. Like there's a lot of directions it could go that wouldn't have been expensive. Um but they've definitely picked one that is like abstract and archetypal, you know, in a way that I mean, it's it's a legend, right? It's um you know, so maybe that's a good you know, good way to think about it. It also it it kind of reminds me also of sort of

with this sort of tie to nature and all of that of like a Nordic tradition of myth, you know. Um You know, like the like more metaphorical Norse gods that are just they're very different from our, you know, giants that, you know, I don't know. I I just kind of I mean part of that is the most recent uh God of war. takes place in Fimble winter, so everything's white, you know, in in

the whatever the mid the mid mid guard, I guess. Um you know, where you spend a lot of time. It's you know, sort of reminded me of that too. Um, that's just kind of illusory, I guess. But it but it also is just like those sort of like you don't really understand these people. They're not people like, you know, they're not human, you know, and their concerns are very different from ours, you know, it's it's it kinda has that feel to it as well. Like it's from a different age, these

These spirits that we're running into and gonna free or something like that over the course of several dungeons. Yeah, it's got a yeah, it's got a Tom Bombadil fail feel is what I'm saying. Yeah, that's a good That's another good poll because he is a he is um disturbing. Yeah, and he's from the second age, right? He's from he's from prior age, you know, of of middle age. And it shows. Yeah. Uh

Uh oh good old Tom Bombadil jokes. You know, you don't have enough of'em. You know, I'm you know, I'm the singer here who, you know, sings the reviews. You know, I'm like Tom Tom Bombadil. Yeah, you definitely are like Tom Bombadil. Um, from a different age. Uh there's another section that I won't spoil for you and I know you don't care about spoilers, but this one I don't wanna tell you about. But I all I'll say is and this is related to this sort of like they're making

the the they're kind of I feel like they're just having fun. I don't know if it's like they're they're like, okay. This is my obviously my internal headcanon for this. They're like, okay, they're giving us a year and some change. All right, then we're just gonna do whatever the hell we want and we're just gonna go all in. There's this section. Um in the Goron area, the next place you're gonna get to in the village. Where

I have not turned the volume of a game down in a long time. I couldn't even tell you the last time I ha I had to turn it down because I just couldn't listen to what was happening. And they did it. And it's for a very specific reason that is Like I feel like somebody on the team w was going through a specific phase of their life and they decided to put it in the game.

Wow. And you'll know what I mean when you get there. All right. And I was like, Oh my God, I can't listen to this anymore. I have to turn this down. It's the I mean I actually turned the game down today as well, but it was just'cause the uh we talked about last week that the audio mix is a little You know, a little rough. It's rough. Yeah. And uh and defin and there are actually, you know, as I also mentioned with this particular, you know, GameCube.

um yeah disc it also is like they say right up front, yeah, there's some audio problems. Yeah, yeah. You know, so it's bugging you. Yeah. So it it just like I I turned it down'cause like it's just in my face way too much. And like Yeah, certain sounds that are charming in some contexts are just like they go t they go on too long here in a lot of scenes. So I'm just

Turn it down. Yeah, that's true. The songs are yeah, and that's maybe another production reality. But this thing again that I'm alluding to is just the funny thing about it is I don't think it would have made it into

Oh sure. It it wouldn't have been approved. I think that's true of a lot here. Of a lot of things. And I think this was one of those this might have been the team that was under the radar w radar while they were making Wind Waker. They're like, Can you put something out because you need to buy us time?

so we can finish Wind Waker and we have this new system and all this stuff. So it's like okay, this other team and this is a ironically, this is the team that kind of became the up and coming team and now leads. you know, leads uh the franchise. Right. Um, so they did, you know, they did prove themselves, but I feel like they were left the kids were left alone in the nursery and and they're like Good you know it would be hilarious. What if we did this? And like

And then they just left it in. It was like, Oh no. I mean, neither of us have played it, but I wonder if there's a feeling like that with the tail uh Tales of the Kingdom, Tears of the Kingdom. Um You know, with all the physics gadgets that you can make and that open world game, I mean,'cause I I've having not played it but having heard a fair amount of commentary about it, you know, it definitely sounds like

They just sort of like, Yeah, go ahead, break the game, you know. Um you know, as far as that goes. And that I mean, that's not really in the story domain, you know, where which is more what we're talking about here. Um but it is a tone. A sort of yeah, it does change the the tone of the game for for sure. Um so I don't know. I mean I wonder if they're there's they're still carrying some of that.

You know, if they're all secretly they go home and they've got Majora's mask in their in their closet. Um the developers on uh on the team today. The at least the ones have been around for a couple of decades. Well I think that are I mean they're not as a company, they're not ones to shy away from doing experimentation, you know, experimental things with Um with their big franchises, I would think I would call out that recent game where you play as Zelda that I'm playing.

Oh right. Um yeah. Uh or say well, I mean, even Link's Awakening came up a little bit. Though the structure of that is I mean, general. a you know, a a a regular Zelda game. Pretty pretty straightforward, yeah. But um but I guess the thing with Majora's and to your point on tiers, these are intended to be the next

sequel in the main line. Right. You know, so it's just surprising how far Majora's goes. And I think the funny thing about it, which we see I can't think of an another example off the top of my head, but something will come to me. Um the the thing about it is that isn't we got we got mail about it, there's people on Discord talking about it. It's a beloved game, Majoris.

Yeah. And I th and it's because they took these risks, I think. Yeah. Because they just went so far. Yeah. It's like it's like, oh, this isn't your normal this isn't your typical Zelda coming off of what I think is one of the greatest games of all time. Uh personally, for me. Um one I'll say one of my favorite games of all time. Um now uh it's just such a such a you know, a a sharp turn.

Um I I wonder too if that is in part, you know,'cause we you know re referencing the Discord, those are folks who would have been younger. Uh yeah, when they played this, right. And I wonder if there's also the some of these kind of horror elements

You know, like as a person who read way too much Stephen King at an age where I really shouldn't have been. That's the my wife as well. Yeah. You know, it just is like you know, you're with that person for life, right?'Cause They they took you places where you weren't really ready to go, but like just changed you. Um, you know, in a way. I I wonder if there's uh there's something to that as well of like it's it's not so much that they took it's more that you like saw

things about life that you didn't know or understand. And you still didn't understand. Like even after you read, you know, some of those early books of of Stephen Kings, you're still like, I don't really get what happened. Like, I just know it felt really private and strange. And this game sort of feels that way too at times, where it's like

you know,'cause it's kind of dreamy or nightmarish you types like the the masked guy shaking Link, you know, like like gr literally lifting him and shaking him. And you're like, you don't do that to kids. Like, you know, um Especially now if they're wearing a mask on their head and break their neck.

Um I don't know. It's just it's just like it's so kind of on the edge in that way, in a way you're like, I don't really like I don't really understand this, you know, in a way, and and that's enticing. To a certain a certain player.

Yeah, no, it's a I think the Stephen King reference is a funny one just'cause it's close to home as well. I forgot that both of you read Stephen King as that's that that's what Jen grew up on. Of her own of her own doing. Yeah. Oh me too. Book of the month club editions, you know, of like an uh quite quite a number of his books.

And I was just like reading them one after the other one summer and just like yeah, not not at a at an age where I should have been. So Yeah. That's a good point that that it's there's a generation here. Um generational question. I I the other thing that's interesting, you mentioned the the shaking of link that also came up on Discord.

Um there's a lot of now that I'm doing the Goran section, there's a lot of parental elements to it as well. There's there's the The king and the princess in the Deku area, um And then there's this similar thing going on that I won't again, you'll you'll find out about this one. So I don't know, I'm just wondering again, it might be the d age of the developers, right? It it happens, you know, you're making a game at a certain phase in your life and Some of that stuff is gonna creep in, yeah.

Like any any Well, and it's very funny with the princess. You know, we'll talk about that'cause you didn't uh

Let's continue to go kind of backwards. You didn't even retrieve the princess out of the swamp dungeon. Yeah, she's just blew my mind. I took I yeah, I took the I took the um you know, I took out the boss, which that boss was oof. Uh that I think I don't even remember the name of the boss, but It's not like Odalwoo or Oladwoo or something like that. That boss is another good example of not only the weird of the game, but also the on the edge of offensive, but then also like

I beat that boss and I'm not even sure how. Yeah. Like I don't even know what was happening there. It did not feel like a a traditional Nintendo boss. Yeah, which is weird because there was a there was an earlier boss where um You were using p thing you know, the new bow and arrow you had picked up plus the this was like a sort of a frog creature riding a turtle.

Oh, I love that one. That was good. And that was cool because you were like, Well, you're using the fact that you're in your deco form to like get in these flowers and pop up and which you had learned about some turtles earlier. Like if you get under them, you can knock them you know, knock them over and b basically attack them or

I guess in the original version, it's just like damage them. And in this case you knock the rider off and while the turtle recovers, he kinda like runs around the room. You could shoot him with your bow and you have to switch back and forth. And I really liked the interplay of like, Oh, I gotta be I'm a kid now, I'm a squid now, kinda, you know, um, back and forth between the mask and the unmasked. Um Although the...

the aiming of the bow and arrow is Yeah, not great. Tricky at best. Um although you can lock on. You can lock on, yeah. Yeah, and that's and how I ended up. Yeah, it's like you can lock on but it won't lead him, so you have to like figure out a good time to lock on, but um or to fire anyway. No, it's a good example because I feel like they didn't teach us enough

Well, I didn't grok, I didn't I guess I didn't retain enough. I know that the moths were a thing throughout the dungeon and stuff like that, but I don't feel like I was really even bombs were in that fight and they didn't really present them to you in any other fashion in the dungeon. Yeah, they were just the flowers over there. They they weren't introduced in the dungeon. Yeah, it's very weird. I just And I uh this will be a theme throughout all the topics for me today.

And probably for the rest of the rest of this series. But it's very seldom that I play a Nintendo game and I start m uh and I and I s I stop trusting the developers. Yeah. As I play because I just feel like they're always so buttoned up. But in this game I've stopped trusting them. And so now when I get stuck, I second guess.

Do I have everything I need? What did I miss something? You know, and that and that this boss was an example. And so case in point, the princess, she said, Oh, you don't you need f to find something to carry me in? And I'm like, Oh, I do. Oh, I guess I came in here without because this happened, yeah. Which yeah. I was like, Oh shoot, okay. I guess I gotta go find a backpack or something. So I left. So she in my game, she is still

There. I I hope she's still there, you know, and I hope it's not necessary. Um yeah, so I did reset the day. I was looking before and I was like, okay, well if you do that, it seems like you're okay because the reward seems like it's not necessary. It's just

you know, a uh kind of another overlay on it's a geocache on the world of like, oh well if you have this you can do a thing. Um that's yeah, probably sort of somewhat somewhat systemic or You know, individually placed, but it's just like another layer on the world like we were talking about, um, of stuff you can go find. But you don't need, you know, you don't have to have. Um, but it's funny because the same thing is the object that you needed for the witch.

Which is you just need the little empty bottle and she'll fit in there, which is bizarre in and of itself. Like it it also is like it doesn't make a lot of sense. Like I don't Like why are Dekus like an infinitely compressible substance? Like that doesn't make any sense to me. Like Well, they also didn't teach they didn't teach us that, right? Like

So, and I to be honest, I had a fleeting thought that maybe that was a thing, but I was like, nah, they would have taught me. You know, they would have, they would have given me some hint about that. So I just assumed. I needed something in town or something that I didn't buy or or find. So I left. So she's still there. I the monkey's still tied up.

And I just went on to the next dungeon. And the funny thing is the bow was the th is the key to the next dungeon. And so I had what I needed. Um anyway. And so yeah, I have the Goron mask and I'm approaching Um, I'm stuck in a new place that is also a that's what I was alluding to, that is a place on this bridge where I'm like. This can't be what they want me to do. This is way too difficult.

But it also could be what they want me to do, or I've lost trust and I'm like, mm, they haven't taught me what to do here. Yeah. Um, or I don't have what I need, which is also not like them, right? To to get to a place That you need a thing and you have no idea what that thing is. Right. Is pretty rare. Yeah. I mean that's one thing about this being so off the beaten path is

There's kind of well-worn grooves in other Zelda games. Like you understand it. Like, oh, I'm gonna need this. I'm gonna need a boomerang. I'm gonna need the whatever the sure shot or whatever, you know, the the basic you know, the the thing with the rope, you know, and things like that. You don't and you need this special item.

And I know what that item is and I know if I do this dungeon I'll get that item and they'll teach me how to use it at the end. And this game is not that. Like this game is not you didn't like You probably can have bombs in some way before you get to that room with the bomb, so maybe like I didn't find all the fairies, although I guess you did, so maybe you didn't need a bomb for those. Um I think I got like eleven or twelve. And I'm like, I don't know how I miss them. Um

But Yeah, we should talk about the fairies in a second too, at least for the first dungeon. Yeah. It's another I feel like that's an interesting It's another layer on the world. UnZeldaism. Although I'm gonna coin a new phrase, a new word. Unzeldaism. That's very uh that's very German of you. Um Yeah, so it it's uh I I do think that they because they don't have some of those things to lean on. They are

kind of feeling around and haven't really found how to do it in this kind of new style, right? In a way. You know? Yeah. And well and they're breaking some of their own rules which again, I think is probably why people love the game'cause it is so different. But yeah that goes to one of my other topics I want to hit today is is just when you choose to make the structure what you did

in this game, which we s we talked about in the previous two episodes, but um I'll explain more in a bit. When you've chosen that path and you're breaking some of your own rules. Yes, you're saving maybe dev time and you're actually creating more playtime in the way that you've structured it, but you're also making it way harder on yourself.

to make the game as clear as the other Zelda games because you are doing something very new. Right. So you've You're you kind of you're saving dev time in some ways by reuse and kind of replaying l days over and over again, but you've also made your life a lot harder in other ways. And I think the the players for me as a player, I'm getting punished for that decision. Um right now. Yeah. I do think it's more in line with

being more alert to your to to what the game is telling you at any point and like could having a more open mind. Like I I replay the witch thing and I do definitely feel like It you they're kinda crossing two streams there is one they're trying to indicate the character of these witches'cause they're kinda nasty, right? And of course they were the you know, the final boss or the near final boss or whatever of um of Arena, right? So like

you kinda if you play Darcarina, you kinda come to this with like, Oh yeah, these are these were those nasty bosses, you know, where that I had to f to fight on those platforms or pillars or whatever, um, towards the end of the game. And You know, so you kinda expect them to have personality problems, um, in a way. But like if you go back and talk to the witch about the um You know, who gives you the boat ticket?

if you go back to her after you finish the dungeon, she'll she'll say, Oh, do you wanna go I could, you know Um there the pictograph picture, they're not giving an award for that anymore. They already awarded it. Um so sorry you did that. But if you want, we could go and you could um I could fly around and you could shoot targets. you know, um, with me that I'll set up, you know, while you take the boat, cruise.

And I was like, no, I don't think so, because I was like trying to hustle things along and they're like, Oh, you don't like hanging out with old people, huh? And I'm like, What? Anyway, the point is that they're like crossing the streams of This character and the game information you need to understand, right? That that's the clarity problem is like. the characterization is almost too strong um for the type of games that they normally are. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean that's

Another part of their decisions, I think, that they're choosing to make such c strong characters for that purpose. Um Yeah, I mean there's still, you know, there's solutions to it. It's just that that they yeah, they again I don't I just take time. It feels yeah, they take time. It feels like a rushed game and it feels like a not an unplayed game.

I agree with you. No, I mean I'm I'm not saying that I'd I'd like I really like that they were so bold. I like the structure of the game. I think it's really interesting. I like the weirdness. I'm just trying to make the point that once you take such big swings, it's gonna come with repercussions.

And if you don't have the time to polish those edges, you know, I think players are gonna bounce off of certain things. And I've now hit, I would call them three sort of, you know, walls. that and and they're basically in each section I've been in, you know, and it's like uh if I if I you know, you know me, it's like I hit a wall, it doesn't take me much to just put it down. Yeah. Um so yeah, it's it's a bummer because it is so fascinating.

And I think to your point about like a little bit of a little bit of a little about crossing the streams and stuff. I think the fact that it's reusing Ocarina and it is such a follow-on to Ocarina. There's some preconceived notions I'm bringing into it as a player that certain things are certain ways. And sort of like if this wasn't like a direct follow on in a different You know.

Somehow this was a different game in a d you know, different version. Yeah, it wasn't different assets and you know, right it wasn't the same link, it's just its own thing. Yeah. It feels like it's a uh very much an extension of that of that story.

Um, if it wasn't that I might maybe I would get some of these clues better because I'm I'm making assumptions right now that I should not be making. So that's you could say that's on me, but generally we don't blame the player. We never want to blame a player. So Um I'm really I'll blame you. You can't quote unquote the player. Yeah. And I yeah, anyway. So the my princess is still there, my monkey is still tied up, and I just left.

I think that's all I mean I hope that it allows the game stuff. So I mean, I hope that that turns out to be true. uh going forward, like that it's not necessary. I kinda like that openness of like, eh, I couldn't figure it out. I'm gonna do something else. Because the time pressure of the three day limit

also kind of limits to what degree you can bang up against those problems. I mean, that was essentially one of the problems I was having last week. Um no, there were there were two problems. Um but one of the problems was like, okay, well I'm supposed to find this person on the edge of the swamp. Um or whatever.

And then the the problem we've already discussed. You know, so I had a couple of things where I just like was banging up against that and time was just like flying by, you know, and I just was feeling that pressure of like I gotta figure this out. And you know,'cause it doesn't feel like Yeah,'cause you know you're gonna get to a dungeon and it's like

Well, how long's that gonna take? Like you know, is that is that like a thing where I want all three days? Am I gonna find myself in the middle of that dungeon and out of time and having to play the song and and like Of course at that point, presumably I could go straight to the dungeon, I would have the song to get to the dungeon area, all that stuff. Um, so maybe it would be like, Well I lost you know, a couple of hours or whatever I of real time, you know, I lost

a day and a half of in game time, you know, to to this. Um I don't feel I mean, I have a better sense now of how long things take, but I didn't feel like that was clear and that time pressure made me not open to things as well, right? So it's hard to hard to feel like I can find the solution to problems'cause I like I gotta get it done now. I can't wait around Till I have an inspiration, you know, I have to I gotta move this forward'cause it's you know, time's ticking.

You know? Um so Yeah. It's a little antithetical to the exploration kind of pillar of it's an adventure game and It does push back on that. I've kind of come to terms with for me I've come to terms the and this might be a segue to the another topic, but sure. I've come to terms with the fact that

For the bigger chunks of things I need to do, like I'll I'll just call them kind of the main quests or the big secondary quests. I'm not gonna finish them in the time allotted. So I kind of have started to plan Mm both mentally but also yeah, I guess just kinda mentally,'cause you can't actually

carry things over manually. So I've kind of just kind of mentally planned on the fact that I'm gonna start have to restart a day. You know, I'll get as far as I can, learn everything I can, and then I'll restart and do it for real. Um, I do slow time down pretty much always. Yeah. Um yeah, I only discovered that. you know, late last time'cause I was searching everywhere for the

the bottle. Right. So Oh yeah, right. Right. So it's like I didn't discover that at a time that it was useful to me. Like I mean I got I slowed down a lot of time, but not as much time as I you know, like I basically play that song right away, you know, when I Yeah, right. When I start a day, right? So or start a loop. Yeah. Um

So yeah, it's just interesting kind of mental shift, I think. The the segue to maybe another topic for me is uh if you wanna move off. Yeah, yeah, so please. I guess we didn't really go through Let's stay on the swamp before I go to change topics. Do you want to talk about the fairies or anything else in the swamp? Yeah, let's talk about the well, certainly we can start with the fairies. I mean I I um

I remembered the fairy in Clock Town saying, you know, help my fairy sisters or whatever, you know, as you go around the world and I was I didn't really know what that would be like. But of course For her, it was the same thing. Go find my one. She only had one missing, you know. Um, you know, find the one that's missing and and bring it to me and uh and then she gives you a mess.

And it it was interesting to go in there. First of all, I had to put on the mask to talk to the fairies, um, so they could tell me what they wanted, which was there's fifteen missing fairies, which again is like that kind of geocaching, like I just can put this layer on top of the other gameplay of this dungeon. Like I can just add this stuff. I can just add

fifteen things that you have to find. It's a collectible item in this this one dungeon. You know, they have to match the color, which is weird'cause it's not like they have other colors of them in there. Um but okay, that's fine. Um So it is just kind of a strange

It it's kinda different. I won't say strange. It's different than other Zelda things. You know, normally you're not you're not looking for those sorts of things. But one of the things that I feel with it is that I feel this tension of like, could they be anywhere?

Like I feel like one of'em was in a like a pot or something and I was like Yeah or a ch or a chest and I'm like, Oh, do I have to break every single pot because There might be you know not only that, but you you have to kill every enemy too.

Oh. Yeah. And I might not have even done that. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my that was my one of the thing I wanted to mention too about the fairies is that that's my un Zeldaism. Yeah. Is that it's not like If you want now, having gotten all of them, I will say that what you what I got for them was underwhelming. So take that for what it's worth. Um and they're very optional, I think. But Yeah, I wasn't planning on going back at this point, but yeah. Yeah, it's a sword. It's you get a sword um uh

Power basically. That is one that I probably will never use. But um but anyway, um Yeah, I mean it could be a pot, could be a chest, it could be knocking down a beehive, it could be killing a spider, it could be a chest, um, it could be just hidden in a place. Uh I did like the water level changes and the poison, unpoison changes in that in that dungeon. Yeah. The reveal of the dungeon was amazing when you sing when you do the song and it comes up in the middle of that. That was amazing.

So they get the presentation But I just the fairies caught me off guard because otherwise it's like get the keys, get the compass, get the maps, you know, the map, everything and the boss key and everything. So that's pretty whatever. Um, but I wanted to at least try to get all the fairies and I was and I had one left. Oh man. At the end, and I was like, oh.

So I went back through and there was yeah, there was one tricky place that ended up being where a chest would fall after you kill all all the enemies in the water. I didn't even think of trying things like that. Like Yeah, it's it's random. I did see that um the wasp nest and I was like that's weird. Uh and didn't even occur to me, you know, that that might be why like I mean and that is sort of a playful experimentation. Like I wonder what I can do with that. But again, the the sort of

the feel of the time pressure works against that. Like I always feel that in games where it's like, well, you have all these things you want me to explore, but you have this other pressure on me. To make that playfulness not rewarded, you know, and that's not always time, it's sometimes

systemic costs of like, oh, it costs you a million whatever to to change your build or something like that. It's like, oh, I wanna I wanna try out these other skills. Well, that costs something or whatever. And here it's it's that it is that time pressure. Um, and that, you know, it's maybe something I just need to get over. I did end up with plenty of time after the dungeon, even though I started it kind of on day two, I was, you know,

maybe just just barely into day three. So I like I had plenty of time. But I didn't feel like I had time'cause I didn't know I hadn't been through one yet. I didn't know how long it was going to take. Um So I didn't and until this conversation, I didn't even know that I some of the things that I should be trying, you know, again to to find those things. So it is, yeah. I'm glad that it's not.

necessary and yeah, I'm not a person who learns lots of sword arts in the Zelda games and deploys them all the time. It's kinda like I go and bash the you know, the A button or the B button or whatever and and get through the combat, you know, by uh Brute force most of the time. Yeah, the one you get for that one is if I'm sure you don't care if I tell you, but it's it's the powered up spinning attack. Oh. Which I never use anyway'cause you have to press and hold. Yeah.

And it's like timing that is terrible. So And there's a lot of press and hold in this game, I've noticed. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, there's more coming. Yeah. Which is yeah, we'll talk about that next time. It's it's really fun what they do with that mask for sure. Like

another, you know, they're continuing the big swings. It just comes with a bunch of baggage, you know, once you do this stuff. Yeah. So I was just I was sort of surprised that they went that far with the fairy stuff, which is a bummer because I tend to be a completionist, but I think in this Probably not going to. Yeah. Um Well, and as I pointed out at top of show, we're probably not finishing this game, so yeah. You said that there's eight dungeons, which

Yeah, somebody I think Calamity said that in the Oh. That's a great a nice succinct four dungeon or five dungeon Zelda game. I can't wait. I was like, Oh no. They're probably gonna make us go through the same dungeon. but in a different way different order back backwards. I don't know. Yeah. So I mean, I feel for'em. Like they had a challenge, they rose to the challenge. They did something very different, which I love. So I I overall I'm you

It's a fascinating game to me, but but yeah, it's it's hard to overlook some things. Yeah, the structure stuff I wanted to segue to like.

I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up obviously I brought up Outer Wilds a couple times already. I have to use it as an example because it's a modern. And now I think at this point in in our medium we have a subgenre you know, very, very squarely say that exists in in sort of time warping subgenre in games. And the thing that dawned on me that I didn't that again I brought in Outer Wilds back.

um into this game uh that I shouldn't have is that the when you s restart a day, which I've now done various times. sometimes on purpose, um, or sometimes it was just that, you know, the end of the day and I needed to do it. Um I think I came into it assuming in Majora's that Certain things would be persistent and certain things would um reset. Or yeah, the I I guess the rules that ends up that ended up being in the game are not what I thought. So for instance,

You know, of course like key items you've acquired uh you still have, right? Yeah. But All the character stuff seems to reset, like the witches, for instance, right? The witch still goes into the forest. Yep. You still need to give her a thing. She just doesn't do the same, like you said, doesn't give you the same route of the tour. Um, there's an alternate there. So that's cool. But like

The bean stocks don't persist. Um, all of your inventory obviously is gone, even though you have the capability. So, you know, it's it's I guess what I'm saying is there's some inconsistencies, I feel like, about Am I gonna lose all my beans? You lose all your inter So the the funny thing is is they're still selectable in in your inventory, but it's goes to zero. In fact, when you reset It shows a link following through this th through the time.

you know, continuum. Sure. And there's like inventory items are flying off of him. They actually show it like your your decu your deco sticks and like that stuff. But then not only that, you lose your beans and the gain the beanstalks are not there anymore. So you have to go replant them if you want to use them. So it's like so you have to go back to the I guess. Is there some other place you can buy them or is it? Yeah, so the guy the guy outside the tourist

In the swamp you still have to go to the swamp, but the guy outside the tourist the um the Deku outside the tourist he will sell you he will remember remember when you first talked to him, he's like, I have seeds, do you know what they're for? And you're like, No, I don't know. He won't sell them.

Yeah. And now after the dungeon you can buy him from him. So you don't have to go. You don't have to go all the way up. I was gonna say,'cause that I mean, that's a pain to get to that guy in the maze. Yeah. Yeah. So so that was like a head scratcher for me of like why But again, they've chosen this structure somewhat to elongate the playtime, right? And I just feel like there's some things that are benefiting that more than the player.

Um, and I get the character resets and the timing. And again, I don't maybe we talked about this in pre-show, but I still don't have I've totally forgot about the notebook.

So like people's schedules and stuff I don't know. Yeah, you're gonna you're definitely gonna wanna figure out the notebook. Um I need to get that for next time, yeah. Yeah, that's that's an important um I mean because I've I feel like at least in Clocktown that's a big part of the um the sort of deadly premonition day to day stuff that I feel like is important to some players' experience of the game that I I think you at least should

Yeah. See, I do feel like it's not it it feels like it feels like groundhog day in that way. Like Phil Connors. you know, on his last day when he finally breaks the loop, basically goes and sees all the people in town. Like he's there for all the important moments that happen.

you know, over the course of that day to those people. Um saving the kid who falls from the tree, somebody who's choking at dinner, you know, which is an inspiration for this game, right? I think they said that. Yeah, yes. Um But like I think that those like there's that same thing is happening where it's like you are the notebook is basically keep track of these quests of these people of like what do they want um

And when is it possible to give it to them or where are they available time wise? Um, you know, and It is that sort of like, okay, I'm gonna solve the town. Like this is my run. You know, Deathloop kinda does this as well, where it's like, We're gonna have to go kill all the bosses and it's like, Well I you know, I have the schedule and the order in which I do those things and I you know, bing bing bing bing bing, you know. Um, back to that game. Yeah.

I started it. That's what that one's about, right? Um and uh, you know, and you're kinda like, Why do I have to always go kill the other? It was like, No, just on your final day, you want to make sure you get everybody's stuff done, you know. And it's the sort of thing where on a on other systems that would be an achievement, right? Or a trophy or whatever. of like you you did the town. You painted the town red or whatever. Um would be the

the title of the trophy. Um I'm available to consult if people want trophy naming. Um the yeah, so it it would be something like that, you know, where it's like, um you know, the perfect play is like the last day you solve everybody's problems, you fight the swamp or the goblin kid, the what's his name? The kid. Um Skull Kid? Skull Kid. And you you know, you do whatever with the mask guy and then you

Get your pony back and off you ride, you know, and that's your like you know, that would be your final day, the perfect day, you know, and um they're kind of setting you up for that. Um and I definitely felt that. I I wondered, like, could you do all the dungeons too? Like, I was wondering like how much of that stuff would stick around. Um, because I wondered is like

Is she you know, if you've restarted the day, would you have to redo the whole dungeon to get the princess again? And No, no. See that's uh so I don't think so. That's I think I went back actually to check. I don't I'm pretty sure not. So when you enter that dungeon there's that one um

symbol of Majora's mask on the ground that you know that uh well did you go back in the dungeon after you finished it? I didn't, no. Okay, so if you go back in Um kind of a weird thing happens where because she's at the end of the dungeon and they had to build this in in case somebody did what I did and didn't take her with with you.

So you go back into the dungeon and there's uh that there's this um flagstone on the ground that is the right as you enter with the simple And it glows and there's some some line plays about Because you have the spirit of the one you save the spirit of the one. uh who was trapped, step onto this blah blah blah. So you step onto that in a teleport.

Oh okay. Um at the end. So you don't have to do that. Yeah, because it's a room you can't reach otherwise. Right, right. It's disconnected. And it's a one way exit, yeah. Um well not a one way exit. I guess if you go around you. Yeah, I guess why do they do that then? I don't know. It's weird. This game's weird. Anyway, so you so it basically just allows you to get back. Um if you didn't bring her with you. It's just a funny

I mean, that was a design choice, right? That yeah. To put her in the bottle. So it's like they could have avoided this. It's just issue of like, why would you want someone to leave? Now this isn't a did I pick up the heart or not? Right, right. I don't think'cause I don't think there's She could just say Meet me at my father's palace. We've got to save the monkey, right? You know it's

Maybe later this comes back around and you have to put somebody in a bottle and it's like Yeah, maybe it's teaching. Yeah. Ah, now I know about putting people in bottles. Weird. I doubt it, but but um it's just weird that you can leave, yeah.

So I just think it's weird. I I guess it's another a Nintendoism for me because I don't know what the rules are exactly for what persists and what doesn't. And the thing that I reason I wanted to bring Outer Wilds up, which has a different goal,'cause Outer Wilds isn't the to your example, paint the town red game. It's not like you gotta do the perfect run. The brilliance of that game is that all you're doing every time you play a day is getting more information.

Right. That's it. You're just trying to figure out what is going on. What happened? There is no levels up leveling up. There's no items. There's you know, it's just like You just want to know what's going on. Yeah, or do you know how to get inside that planet, you know, or whatever. Right. And once you do, you don't need to go back because now you have the information.

Yeah. So it's brilliant. Like that game, like the conceit of that is just so well done. I do wish that the town in that game played more of a role. Uh, but um because it's kind of once you leave, there's no reason to go back, you know. Anyway, um but in this game in Majora's Not only is there the pattern stuff, I think it's so funny that we played Deadly Premonition.

fairly closely to this game now that I think about it'cause there's so I wonder if I wonder if Majora's had an impact on Deadly Premonition um in its kind of time stuff, but Um, you don't replay the day. So anyway. No, it's more about figuring out. what you can fit into a time period, you know, more than anything else. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I just yeah, so I'm I'm it's another kind of, you know, uh trust thing for me now of like

I think it's gonna be probably by the end obvious what's gonna what you're gonna keep, right? You'll keep your gear items and your masks and things like that, and you'll eventually learn what what you don't know. So like you keep the bow but you don't have any arrows? Right. Like what is the point? I think it's to elongate time. Yeah. Yeah. Playtime. Right? They're they're they've made a world. I mean that I mean it's

The Zelda thing is though, you're gonna go hit like, you know, twelve pots and you're gonna get three hearts, twelve rupees, and a bunch of arrows. Like You're gonna get that stuff in that way. It's just weird. It's just a weird extra step, you know? And I was you know, I was feeling the same way about uh so I've been playing Hollow Knight. Um

And I was feeling the same way of like there was a loop I was doing again and again and again. I kept failing to defeat a particular boss. And I was like, I just wanna start outside the room. with the stuff. And then I finally got s you know, some upgrade on the nail or whatever that let me do that basically. It's like I can teleport to a location from anywhere, you know, I can just like, uh, of course. Well they

They decided they were gonna make that an upgrade for me. So that when I got it, it'd be like, oh well, I don't have to do that anymore, you know, and it was kind of that reward. But this is weird in that it's like it's not that it's It's still the same Zelda mechanics of like if you go smash a bunch of you know, you know, cut down a lot of grass and smash a bunch of pots, you'll get the things you need, whatever those are. It's just a it's just a weird yeah, it's a weird thing to not

Save that for you. You know.

I don't know. This this is a this is a gross generalization, but say that they entered development with this game and they said, okay, listen. We probably need a sixty hour game. We we need a sixty hour game. We probably have only amount of they said, hey, listen. They said, Hey, listen. Hey, listen. Hey, listen. Hey, listen. They said, Hey, listen. We need to make a sixty hour game. Um, but you're probably only gonna have time to make a quarter of Ocarina. Right.

So how do you do both of those things? And they're like, okay, I got this idea. We're gonna make them replay the world. multiple times using this time stamp which to their credit is freaking cool. Yeah. Yeah. Like I would never have thought of that. That's amazing. And good f again, I don't wanna sound like I'm being negative on the game. They did it and it's very interesting and and just like a fascinating, I feel like. artifact of game development for me. So I'm learning a lot from it.

Um But if I hadn't played a the perfect version of this kind of game just recently. Yeah. I I think I wouldn't have been as great. Yeah, that's my that's the player's fault. If you haven't played every game up to twenty eighteen or whatever before you play a game that you know, what are you even doing? Um I do think that the razor was probably something pretty simple, like if it has a number next to it, it's gone.

It is like literally it's like that simple, you know. But then I'm like, why are the beanstalks gone? I'm like, it's such a pain in the'cause there's multiple steps with the beanstalk. Yeah, yeah. You've got to find some water. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I mean it it is really It's a it's a weird choice, but um but yeah, I mean I think they just, you know.

I do think there were a lot of a lot of pressure points on this one, you know, and they I don't envy them. Yeah. No, and I think that didn't get to the iteration that Right. That that that they would have needed to find the way to smooth those things out. You know. They made an amazing so far, even as f as little as progress as we've made, I think they've made something incredible out of what their constraints were. Yeah.

For anyone to do that is a feat. And then to have Nintendo's version of that is like another feat. So I I definitely hand it. Yeah, yeah. They probably learned a lot in while making this game that in impacted

future Zelda games, you know, in a lot of ways. So I definitely see some spiritual feeling things in Breath of the Wild, you know. So Um, not obviously time, you know, warping stuff, but but just the sense of um there's some, you know, there's some interesting tonal things there in that game. Um of course there's masks, a lot of masks, um and stuff. So anyway.

Uh the one l last topic we have is uh the save owls. And so I wanted to explain this, uh I explained it to you in pre-show, but I wanted to explain it on the air. So the way it works, I I read and thought about it this time. I didn't go through the loop, but I under I read it closely and was like, Oh, I understand what they're trying to say. They do over explain it. Um And it is extremely wordy and that's partly a localization problem, I'm sure, of like how do you get this information in there?

You know,'cause there's hard limits on how much space, right? I mean, you only have so many characters on the cart um for these lines, right? And uh translating from Japanese which is a highly compressible language in a way, um,'cause the characters do more than than in English. Um Anyway, the the way it works is if you save it an owl And exit. It's a save and quit situation. You can't save my progress here. It's do you want to save and quit?

Um, it is basically there to allow people who have, you know, lives to save at a point and be like, and you can come back tomorrow and pick up from where you were exactly. However When you load that save, as after they've loaded it, they modify the save to um to remove the ability to load that save again. So if you were to power off your N64 at that point, you've loaded the save, you power off your N64.

When you turn it on again, the save would still be there. It would no longer have an OWL icon next to your name or whatever, that's the save file. Um, and it would just start you at the beginning of a day. So however a day resets, it would you know, whatever world state stays over game res uh day resets and things like that would

uh would stay, you'd lose all your inventory and stuff as we've been talking about, um, and you'd start a new day and you'd figure out what you want to do to do at that point. And that's a really weird choice as well, because And I d you know, there are not a lot of games that do this where they're like, Oh, you have a save, we're gonna delete that save or change that save as soon as you load it. Like that is

Nobody does that, you know, and that's something that they do here. It's like the first, you know, you load it once. And that save is no longer available. Now you could remake it immediately if you wanted to, if you wanted to save in the same space That's what I was gonna ask, yeah. Yeah. You could just do it again, you know. Um but and I think the explanation even says you would have to do this again.

If you wanna to pick up from this point uh again. Right. Um which is why it's so long and wordy and like what is going on with this is it's it is such a strange. Anytime you have there's probably Pages or Or so of text. Not quite that many, but yeah, very dense. They're very dense pages. Scrolling just to explain this darn owl. Yeah, if you have to explain, yeah, it's like explaining it just.

Full transparency though. The the the weird thing for me is that I'm playing on the switch and so I just go into um sleep state. is suspend and I just turn the my TV off. So so and and and actually spoiler, um I have switched over to my TV. Oh. I'm playing with I'm playing with the pro controller. Yes, everyone's right. It's the better way to play. I just can't I can't go from my Steam Deck. to my switch in a in a given day. It's like I am hurts you. It's like your soul.

Yeah. It's like I'm going from a manual manual transmission to an automatic or something, even though that's fun. But I was gonna say as a person who prefers a manual transmission. I forgot who I'm talking to.

That's not a good example. Anyway, so I'm playing on my T V, but um and with the pr the pro controller is really good. Anyway, uh It's like going from a manual typewriter to an IBM Selectric. Okay, there you go. Good good one. Good one. Um Yeah, I so so I haven't even I'm using the owls for the second way which you should explain now, which is an even or I can. Right. If you want to an even more important way to me because I'm just using

suspend. So I basically never save and quit. I probably should'cause it's probably gonna well, whenever you reset a day by playing the song, it does save at that point. Oh, okay, good. Okay. You're not asked to save. You're just do you wanna it says do you wanna save and restart the day? And basically it saves immediately after the restart. And then whatever you would see next. So in my you know, in my case today it was like, Oh, we should go out the north exit.

Next time I go play, it'll say the same thing. We should go out the north exit when I load that save, even though I've already seen that. Um it's gonna be restarting the day where I'm up the next thing I'm gonna do is go to the Gora. I probably should though start using the save and quit just to be safe. Um and experience it that way. But No, you don't you don't have to. I mean I never do. I just turn off the console at that point. Once I've quit the sound of time.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Playing the side of time restarts the day and yeah, I mean I mean if I didn't want to restart the day, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. You should use that. Yeah, but no, it's good to know that that saves that. Yeah. So anyway, so but the other way that the the other thing the owls do, which I use all the time.

uh very appreciative of is they are fast travel. Just like legit fast travel. And it's like, oh Huh. Um, we were talking about in pre show. Ocarina had the kind of area warps, which I think I used. Yeah. Dead songs for for the uh so it's sort of like this is a more detail oriented version of that because the owls are kind of all over. Um

And so I use them a lot because there's some sections I just d you know, even sometimes the owls aren't that far apart, but I just don't wanna do that section again. So I'm like I'm just gonna Just gonna fast travel. So I I just I I was just looking to see'cause we were talking about it earlier, um, pre show, you know, what what were the The early fast travel games. Ultima one, because of the moon gates, are fast travel games. I was gonna say moon gates are the best.

Um but Legend of Zelda as well as some Dragon Quest games in nineteen eighty six. uh also did it. So the original Legend of Zelda. The original Legend of Zelda had a flute that you could uh go to dungeons with. And I think that was in Linked to the past as well. I think there was a way I don't know if it was a flute, but there was a way to get around quickly. Um it might have been a harp or something like that. But there was there was a

Similar way to get around really quickly. Or maybe like a bird would come and pick you up. I can't I you played a musical instrument. And a bird would fly you somewhere, is my recollection from uh that sort of maybe it was an owl. Maybe it was an owl. It could have been an owl. Um yeah. I love the sequence when you fast travel in this game. Oh, does an owl come and pick you up?

Yeah, it's got well, it's it's abstract again. It's got this weird like you're wrapped in these wings and you spin around and it's it's very abstract and stylized. Yeah. Oh that's cool. Um it's implied that you're being taken there by the owl, but they don't

They don't show it. For production reasons m mostly. I'm sure. Yeah. They're just loading. So coming coming full circle on where we started the episode with the uh the weird end of the dungeon. All right. Well that's uh that's our topics for this week.

Next week. We we might go an additional week past next week, depending on what this this next week of play turns up for us. Um so we're we're you know leaving the door open to a five episode series uh but we might go to takeaways next week. We'll kind of see how we feel uh and talk about it next week. Um you can find us uh you know to review us on uh Apple Podcasts. uh architecture, you know, or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of them have them.

uh ways to review. Um and we'd love to hear from you if you're putting it somewhere other than the Apple infrastructure. I get all of those, but I don't see these other weird ones you might use. Um so maybe shoot us an email at devgameclub at gmail.com. We don't have any new email this week either because we caught up a ton last week, which was great, but we'd love to hear from you. We're on the web at devgameclub.com and my co host twitches at twitch dot TV slash

Tim Longo Jr. with the J R at the end. I didn't watch last week. Did we have a perfect hitman Renchi run or what's the story? No, we we were we were in our dwarven Geofront conclave. Oh good. You got it this time. Jeff Morris, I don't know what he's talking about. Uh but that's the name. That's the name. Well Yeah we were Yeah. Um yeah I post it on Discord if you want to hear Oh right you had a dwarf that was insane and I'll Yeah.

Now she is she is uh haunting. She is now a ghost. So we are gonna make a memorial and a tomb. Somebody in uh in stream, might have been Moss, um suggested it. Uh so yeah, I'll do that. So she's yeah, she was our probably our most important dwarf. Yeah, the brewmaster. Yeah, our brewmaster. So that was sad. Yeah. RIP. Hoist a blast tour. Yeah, but we're s I'm still trying to crack the farming nut right now. It's like uh doing something wrong and I I refuse to look anything up.

So we'll be doing some tour fortress this week. Enjoy. You will see that uh announced on our Discord. There's a link to that in our show notes. Our intro and outro music was written and performed by Kirk Hamilton, commissioned by Friend of the Caster and Evers and our logo, merch store, Discord, all of the things by Mark Garcia. Have fun coming back anytime if you decide you want to dance this week, and good night.