DGC Ep 463: LoZ: Majora's Mask (part one)

Hello and welcome back to Dev Game Club, a weekly podcast in which two veteran game developers look at games from the past. to discuss their relevance and impact today. I'm Brett Duval and I'm joined as always by my co host, a man who has done me a favor and got rid of my horse. Ha ha ha. Tim Longo. I didn't need that horse, Tim. That jerk. I'm horse enough as it is, dun bum. Oh wow. Well, sorry, I wish I could get rid of that horse for you. But anyone who treats a Pona that way is

A real jerk. A real jerk. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll get to the we'll get there. We'll get there. Um wanna thank folks for their kind words about the uh the ten year anniversary. Um it's funny, Tim. I released it on the ten year anniversary of when we recorded our first episode. Not of when we released our first episode. So I got that wrong. Um so me a couple. Okay. I was only a few days I was only a few days off, but we recorded like two that week.

Um,'cause we wanted to have an extra one in the can and then we released it. Once we had two, we were like, Okay, we you know, we'll see if we can keep up this pace and we've mostly managed it over ten years. So basically weekly with obviously we talked about with some help, but I mean over I average on the average, I guess I would say. Yeah, but um I see what you're saying, so

Yeah. So you use the date I mean, who cares? I mean that's fine. I just it just you know, it's been eating at me. So you gotta get off your chest. I remembered That date. But it was the date we recorded. So it's the this was This is it's the date that I see because I look at the files and it's like, oh, it's February twenty sixth. Got it. It was yeah, okay. I thought it was like based on your memory or something. No, no, no. I mean I have the

I have all the stuff. Anyway, uh let's move on to our next series. We we announced in the Discord, because we took a week off last year last week rather, um, I've been a little under the weather, so you may hear that in my voice and the uh any horse jokes I make.

Um the uh the new series, uh as we announced there is Majora's Mask, uh which was released in two thousand. uh both in Japan and here in the US. Um and was uh well we'll we'll talk a little bit more about um about the game sort of setting. But in in that year, um was also the PS two launch year, uh i. e. my first console, uh, which I think we got at Christmas that year for Um or maybe in uh November. It was pretty close to launch we got them um at uh LucasArts

And so some of the titles will come from that. Some other titles from this year that we've played were The Sims, uh Deus X, and Final Fantasy IX. Three games that we um we played from this year. I think those are the only ones. Um and then some games that are sort of associated with games we've played. Uh Diablo two, Baldur's Gate two, uh Resident Evil Code Veronica. Which sort of comes between uh RE2 and RE three, I am told by the internet. Uh Chrono Cross.

Which is not a direct sequel to Chrono Trigger, but is in some way related. I did not do the research on that. Uh Pokemon Yellow, um, which is the sort of red-blue um you know, super game, I don't know, the that puts them both together and then Thief Two. All games that are related to things we played. And then uh You know, and thief thief would have been that would have been a short time.

development time for them as well from Thief to Thief Two is my recollection. Anyway, on the um on the other games from the year front, uh a lot of PS1 stuff in here and some PS2, some Dreamcast. 'cause this was sort of the the last hurrah of the Dreamcast, which had a pretty short uh life cycle before it before it died. Um but Spyro, You're the Dragon, which was the third of that sort of trilogy on the PlayStation One. Vagrant Story, which is a uh game I quite enjoyed at the time. SSX.

Uh played on a loop in my head for many years. Uh Skies of Arcadia, Rayman 2, The Great Escape, Paper Mario, uh still on the N64, No One Lives Forever, uh technically the operative, No One Lives Forever. Donkey Kong Country on the G B C Crazy Taxi, Soul Calibur, and Jet Set Radio to s to kind of round out with some of those. uh Dreamcast titles that came out, um around this time. There was an awful lot, as I recall,

Of Crazy Taxi, uh what was that one song? Ya playing in a playing in the Star Wars Starfighter development pit at the time. I remember that in SSX because anyone When we got the systems there weren't that many games. And there was a truck there's something with a truck that you could drive around. Smuggler's Run, I think it was called. Uh yeah, uh huh, yep. And uh pretty good but SSX is a good game. That's also just a really good game.

Yeah. I mean as as I I think her name's L, as she says, I am perfect. Um so Yeah. It's got a lot of character on that game. Yeah, love that a lot. I mean a lot of good games this year. Um not an all timer year, but but still some some great titles. And uh and of course I'm a huge no one lives forever and and especially the sequel fan, so that's though. I mean for me Deus Ex is up there, so that you know.

So Oh no, I'm not saying there aren't all time games that came out this year. I just mean this year as a whole. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a ninety eight or a two. Yeah, exactly. Two thousand four or whatever. Yeah. So um All right, let's uh let's turn then to Majora's Mask, which, you know, was a

uh a sh a much shorter development time kind of game compared with, you know, around three, a little over three for Ocarina of Time. This is the game that follows it up. Um And, you know, it it had a much shorter dev time. So and and I think that's reflected in the design. We'll talk about that. Um and of course the reuse of uh assets and stuff. But why don't you take it from there in terms of who and uh you know, and a little bit about its development to to the degree that we have any of that.

Yeah, I mean we just have the basics that you can easily find on the internet. That's us. Yeah, that's the anyone who's still listening after ten years knows that we're not researchers or historians. Um we're just

some dum dums. Um but anyway, I did want to mention that um uh Eunuma who was uh Ayunuma san who was who I believe ended up being somewhat uh having some directorial role on Ocarine of Time, but but he is now, you know, basically the the overall producer for Zelda and has been for many years. Breath of the Wild, you know, he famously has, you know, guided that new kind of reboot forward, but he worked on everything in between too. But he did work on it Acarina of Time and then he was

the um the one of the directors um of this one as well. Not yet the producer, Miyamoto is still listed. Um, but we understand that Miyamoto is, you know, starting to be much more of a advisory role from here on out, basically. And I wanted to mention that because this game seems like it's gonna be so different. Um yeah. And for sure. And and the reminder too, and I I can't think I think I have this we'll see. So I guess Maybe I c other than Zelda 2.

You know, for the most part, there was you up until this point, there were usually there was usually one core Zelda game per system. Historically. You know what I'm saying? So like Zelda One, Zelda, uh Link to the Past. Uh, Link's Awakening, you know, those are all sort of really focused around the system that they were done for. And then again, Zelda two is a hard one to to parse to some degree. Yeah. Um, so there is that game.

And then Ocarina comes out for N sixty four and the reason that I personally and I I think for you as well was really interested in playing this one, even though we have played Ocarina and people might think, Well, why would you play both of them? Is that from a development standpoint, and the reason I wanted to mention some new leadership really guiding this game? Um, the concept of making

a sequel based on a previous game, whether it was successful or not. I mean, if there's a sequel, it probably had some success,'cause there usually isn't a sequel if the game didn't have a success. Right. But I really was interested to see what Nintendo does in that situation because they weren't normally doing that. They did it with the Mario games from time to time. They would have two

But and they do that much more in the modern era. But the N sixty four was still, I wouldn't call it the modern era. And so you know, w w w how would they take something like the foundation of Ocarine of Time and in a shorter development cycle? Um it's two years later, but you s you said you'd read someplace that it was The development cycle was

was much less than that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I read that it it was uh a little over a year. They started in January of nineteen ninety nine, released in April of I think April of two thousand. Um wow. So with with time to produce that's Because it takes roughly a a month to to print the carts. Right. And we did that one time. Yeah, exactly. I was I've already referred to Starfighter and I mentioned

Uh, you know, um Thief Two, which I think was a little bit similar, is maybe a little longer, but not a lot longer. Um We just went back to the to the well ourselves. I mean, we added some new elements, but we we we just basically mean and so did something like Thief Two or Baldur's Gate Two, et cetera. Uh Baldur's Gate Two, I think. had a couple of years as well. Um and was huge. And it was like hu it was like a hundred times as big as gigantic. Yeah.

So there's content. Once you ha once you have your tools and you know how to make the game, you know.

Yeah. Especially of this era and prior to it, um, is Like you don't actually know what your game is until so soon before you actually release um that you know, you are you've only learned how to make your game, you know, shortly before, you know, and it's usually the sequels that are more are are better versions of the games that that were made because, oh, we actually know what we're building and we can just spend the whole time

making that game instead of building the tech and the tools and figuring out what the game's gonna be and all the kind of stuff that happens on on the first game in the series. So Yeah, I mean I think two famous modern examples are Uncharted Two and Mass Effect Two. Oh yeah. Uh which are sort of lauded as the b the better versions, maybe the best versions of those franchises, right? And then we're not the first version.

Well and and the last series we played, you know, which is why I mentioned N before it was uh you know, playing Ultima Four. You know, it wasn't until either six or seven, um, and forgive me for not doing the research on the spot, but one of those where Warren Spector had come in and said, you know, we could make some other games with this engine.

Um and they in fact so I guess it was seven, right?'Cause seven had part one and part two and um and Garrett had always Richard Garrett, Lord British had always just been like, No, no, a new number means a new engine. And he was really resistant to calling Ultima seven part two. Ultima eight because it was always a new engine to him was uh the major number change, right? So and that was the first one where they reused and they also made those uh Ultima Adventures games. Um Yeah.

I don't I don't know how that fits into the chronology, but um I would expect they use the same engine for that as well. But that might have been around the same time. Um I'd have to go look. It was also just interesting that there was just this kind of ethos of like, well, this is a new game, it's a new it's a whole new thing, right? A whole new program, a whole new set of tools, you know, that I'm doing'cause I'm making something different, you know, and um

It was kind of a s the start of this shift to reuse. Yeah, and at the time licensing on the PC anyway, uh primarily engines was a a thing as well. Yeah, it's a weird time. I mean and I th I just feel like if we just talk about game production for a second, just you know, in a in a general sense, like There was we've talked about it every time we played a game from this this kind of like plus or minus five years, you know, section.

where there was a lot of growing pains, I think,'cause the the industry was growing up. Um, and I think luckily we were In it and kind of coming up in it at the time. So we we got to see some of this. And Lucas Arts is a very specific example of this, I'd say, because We weren't small but we weren't big. It was this medium sized company that had its own tech. Yeah. And there was actually a lot of reuse, um, or an attempt, you know, not always and sometimes to to to its to the game's uh

you know, detriment that that it was uh that that they didn't reuse something, but if you think about the scum engine, right? Uh or you think about um or you think about the uh the Jedi and uh Jedi and Dark Forces engines and things. So, you know, outlaws. And outlaws, right? So or even in in a lot of cases just ta technologies, the underlying rendering

Right. Um for Star Wars, Starfighter was of course also a Jedi Starfighter, but that was also to be used in the the the bits of it for anything we did for the PlayStation two internally, um called L E C G L. Um so I mean it was iterated on, but it was also gonna be on Full Throttle Two was using it. Um in the U. I didn't know that. Yeah, and and I think that certainly um

Like Red Rock was using it, probably also Gladius, although I don't specifically remember. Um yeah,'cause that was uh I think PlayStation and GameCube. GameCube, probably. Yeah, I think GameCube maybe was its lead, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, um So I just was, you know, I'm I've all you know, I I won't speak for you, but but I've always heard interesting things about Majora's Mask and

hadn't really thought through the creatively interesting things about it, but I hadn't really thought through the production implications about why they would even do it the way they did it. I knew that was very much in the Ocarina engine and even reused a lot of Ocarina assets and stuff, which I would get, you know, kind of conceptually, I would understand. But

It just wasn't that common for them to do it this way. Yeah. And so we'll never I mean, maybe there's interviews out there we don't know about, but you know, we're not gonna have a guest on for this game. So I can guarantee you. Um so so we'll never really know, but I would be really interested to know like the thought process behind it, right? With Ocarina being such a success. And they were probably already early murmurs of the GameCube. Um, in fact.

GameCube would've come out a few years later, I believe, two thousand three or four. Right. But I mean, you know, like the the going back to my previous point about how many the Nintendo sixty four was largely, you know, viewed as kind of a relative failure. Um, partly because they had stuck with cartridges, right, that had famously had driven Square away to um to the PlayStation, right, where they could use um, you know, C D, you know, magnetic media.

Yeah. Um so it was a real or vi um what do they call that? Anyway. Um image image based media. Yeah. So they they had um you know they had kind of lost that Like a little bit of cachet. And I think there was also just so there's just this kind of like, well, what do we have? You know, and also Ocarina of Time was like one of the most expensive games to make of, you know, all time at that point. Um, because it was unho unheard of that it was like three or three and a half years. I've I've seen

varying um numbers looking set today. That it was like, you know what, we invest I mean that's that was the thinking behind Starfighter. It was like we spent all this money developing this engine. We're just gonna throw it away. You know, that doesn't make any sense. Um we should you should put out another one. Although I d you know, that one, you know, Jedi didn't sell nearly as well as the original.

But uh but yeah, so it's it's just uh I mean I think they were under the same pressures anybody would be in where it's like, Well, you spent all this money, you know, can you get anything more out of it? you know, which was you know, also influencing the Ultima type decisions at the time, which is pretty close to this as well. Um in terms of Yeah, I mean I get it. Like I said, I get it conceptually. It's just not something that Nintendo

ever up to that point had ever felt like they needed to do. You know what I mean? And I agree with you that the N64's performance was probably a big element of that. But again, knowing how the hardware cycles go, They were already working on GameCube games or at least prototypes, right? They were starting to see that stuff. So there you could they could just as easily have said, um Which they did for Hmm Twilight Princess?

Remember Twilight Princess, I believe, was a originally a GameCube game. Yeah, it was a GameCube slash Wii release. That they that they decided, hey, we're gonna we're gonna release this on the new system because it's close enough and Um, and they've done that a few yeah, anyway, it's just a really intriguing Majora's mask is a weird.

game on many levels, I I think. Yeah. And even not having finished it or played it very far as we haven't, well, you've played it further, but I can kind of see where it's going, even from the first session, combining that with the production, you know, history of what it is, and then the short dev cycle, and then the reuse of of elements of the game.

Um, which for me I'll talk about later. There's largely prose because I s I was such a I'm such a fan now of Ocarina of Time. I think it might be my favorite Zelda. Um now that I was kind of like a nostalgia like a you know, not a nostalgic for when it came out, but a nostalgia nostalgia for when we played it. a few years ago and so it kinda was like nice to be back in it, to be honest, you know? It was like all these quirky little models and these quirky little animations and

audio, it's you know, sort of like, oh, there's more. It but it does sort of feel like an expansion pack, you know, um so far. Yeah, it definitely definitely has that feel. I mean it's it's sort of I mean it's kind of a natural question to ask, you know, it's like when you're putting this kind of money into things. But also just like you've developed all these

assets, are they really only good for one thing? You know, and You know, typically what you do is you you you make a whole uh you know, a a continuing series of games, like you mentioned, uh Uncharted or Mass Effect or whatever. And it's like, well, we're gonna reuse these same characters, but to do the same sort of thing. And one of the things I've always thought would be kind of more interesting is to have kind of a stable of characters.

you know, um not not necessarily characters, but m sort of models that you just reuse to do different games with. You know, at at this point. You know, like why redevelop uh think of them as actors at that point, you know, in terms of certainly the characters. It's like this is a character who can play any role. Maybe you always get the same voice'cause you you know, you tried to make it look a particular way, right? Um But you know, to think of it as like

I don't know, the studio system for actors, you know, in the I don't know, thirties and forties or whatever. Um, you know, in in Hollywood or whatever. Is like well, you have these kind of the stable of people who are basically character actors who play the same thing over and over again, more or less, you know, with variation.

Um, you could do the same thing in games, you know. It's just that our technology turns over fast enough, you know, and the that the the difference between gens is pretty substantial, um, because if you have a five to seven year window for a console, the hardware you know, has increased in power, you know, eight times or whatever, ten you know, sixteen times in that in that in that amount of time.

So it's like, oh, it doesn't really hold up. So you'd have to be constantly refreshing it. I think we're now actually at a time where it's actually way more possible to consider that. Um because we've kind of leveled off on the graphics end of things. I mean, there's always gonna be improvements and ray tracing and blah, blah, blah. But to a certain degree, it's like most consumers, you know, casual people playing games, which have to be a much larger part of our market now.

don't really probably care all that much about any of that. You know, they don't want to buy a new one all the time. Um, because the difference that they're gonna see is not gonna be that impressive, probably. Um so We're kind of in a now in a sweet spot. And of course uh some of that is um you know, it definitely is reflected in the fact that now we have kind of somewhat standard engines, you know, there's a f there's kind of a few of them. Um so that that has changed as well. So

I think just sty stylization of of things too. I mean, you know, to your point about the modern audiences. there to some degree what you're talking about occurs in things like Roblox and Fortnite where they're or my you know they're basically kind of like Roblox especially they're sort of Not standard characters, but there's standard pieces that the kids don't really care.

about them being anything else. You know what I mean? It's like Yeah, no, that's it's that's a good parallel. This is my this is my minifig, you know, which is you know the reference. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like that that's the stuff that we used to care so much about and and and then I think the other thing that's wrapped into this modern day, which is interesting to talk about in context in the context of Majora's Mask is

the price point for games, how has that changed? Because I think back in the day when you're paying sixty dollars for each or fifty dollars whatever for each sequel, I think the audience had an expectation that, well, if you're reusing models Yeah, am I getting my money's worth? Do you know what I mean? Right. And like, no, you need to redo everything. Yeah, yeah. You know. But my point is these days, luckily Yeah. Well I mean people

Players are more savvy and they realize but they also they hate the asset store things, right? As well. Like things that they've seen a million times. They don't like they call it they call it some there's a term like asset. You know, storm slop or whatever, you know. Is there I didn't know. Yeah. Well there's there's sort of a yeah, I mean talk about the thing that should not be named, but that's starting to happen too, right? Yeah. Sure, of course. There's a vocal

you know, minority, I'm sure, who care about that stuff, but it's like they're vocal. They're on the Steam forums and whatever and they were out there review bombing things because it's like, oh, they use You know, the same bicycle that they used in this other game. You know, it's like yeah, you know. You know. A thing of beauty is a joy forever, folks. Come on. Um anyway.

Well, it's it I mean to as a segue though, coming back into this game and we we should talk about the opening and kind of like it's Yeah, I was gonna go there next. But but I'll just generally say before we get into details, it did feel to your point about like um familiar faces, if you will, or or or just sort of like that that what you get from that reuse. I coming back into this, it definitely was like, you know, a cozy blanket for me. It was like, Oh yeah, you know.

You know, and from the perspective of being, you know, older as well. You know, so it's I I mean I I really just think there is a there is a difference between when you're you're when you're young and you want something new every time you you go out versus you know, when you're older and you're like, Oh, this is familiar. I like it. You know, that's a a natural sort of um

consumptive conv conservatism or something, uh you know, that happens as you get older. You want the things you like, you know and I don't know, I don't want to listen. I don't understand this music the kids listen to today, you know, or whatever. You know, it kind of reflected in a lot of things. So I think to your point about like the context of the system at the time though, like the fact that this

Like I I I didn't I don't necessarily mean that it feels like an expansion pack so far. as a bad thing, but I kinda also do like it's good and bad for me. Yeah. And the fact that this was on its own cart, and by the way, it needed the expansion pack to play. Yeah. On the system.

Which was more memory apparently. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think Ocarina was optional, but you could use it, right? Or something? Yes, that's correct. Yeah. So I really am trying to s as we've started this game, I'm really trying to kind of as best I can, again, not historically in a academic sense, but historically put myself there and say, If I would if I had purchased this cart

Which it's its own cart, its own box, you know, it needs an expansion. And expensive. Yeah. So I had to buy that. What would I feel about it? Um I think I'm gonna like this game because of its structure, because it's so weird. That's a prediction I have. I I have no evidence of that. I might hate it, but Um, I think I'm gonna like it, but if I think about myself as a teenager or a kid who just finished like m mastering Ocarina of Time'cause that game is so amazing. Yeah.

And just like loving it. And then you buy this as the follow up. Yeah. And you're like, what is going on? It's it starts so so from the very beginning, it's such a different start. to Yeah, there's no it's like a dream. It's like a nightmare. He's having a nightmare. He's also um of course he he's back to kid link, right?'Cause he's, you know, gotta l actually live the years in between kid and adult link.

Um and he's in this like foggy forest, you know, and it just has this it's a totally different thing from waking up in the little village, you know, at the beginning of Ocarina, which is like There's all these people, you know, around and this is like it's very lonely and strange. I mean, this is like uh, you know, I forget the name of the forest in Japan, you know, that is um

You know, where the Ghost Forest. Um but it's just it feels extremely isolated in in the beginning. And it has and then it just like the tone just gets stranger and stranger the further you go through this kind of opening period. And of course at a certain point you run into Skull Kid and you get a Deku head and it's like, wait a minute, now I'm not even linked. Yeah, in in a way. It's so strange. Well, the opening cinematic too is like I was very

Both surprised and confused and astonished at the f like I know the two of those are redundant, but I'm just trying to make my point. Like The opening cinematic before it gets kind of into the the I don't know meat of the game. Um even from the story, I guess there's the opening cinematic, and then there's sort of like the story start. But the opening cinematic is so um

kind of abstract. It's just showing like scenes. It's all an engine. Might mean it might have been ultimately rendered, but it's it's all Yeah, it was probably all an engine because it is a cart. Yeah, right, right, exactly. Yeah. So but it it's just like These these abstract cuts with this weird music of characters you don't know yet. You know, people like. creepily skipping down a hallway. You're like, oh do you Are you talking about like the attract mode?

Uh like before you would hit the start button?

No, I don't think well I mean I'm playing on the I'm playing on the Switch. Yeah, it might be a little different for me. Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah. I just started the game in this. Yeah, some of this parts I've just started. Okay, so maybe that didn't happen for you. I don't know. It mm it this was this didn't look like in the track mode to me'cause there was no action.

It was just like a a s uh a fever dream, you know. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it is a little fever dreamish. I was some of that stuff didn't didn't really and then there's like then there's a nar then there's a a section where you know it's their version of a text scroll, not a text. uh crawl, but you know, um title cards. Yeah. Where it kind of introduces the general concept of what you're doing, what link, why why link is there, which I don't remember

I don't think Ocarina has that, if that's what you're where you're going. No, no, what I was gonna ask, so in that in the title card, so it goes to black, you know, it it does this sort of weird for me at least it had that sort of weird sequence and then It talks about so like you said, shows him in the forest on Opona and they're just kind of like slowly

And very somberly and and sad like Slink looks sad. But they talk about in the title cards, um, him when they're describing kind of the context for the quest, that he's left to go find a friend.

And I was like, who and then they very quickly after that show the fairies and I was like, did something happen to Navi that I forgot I forgot about from Ocarina? Um So I feels like the the the maybe I was misunderstanding what the title cards were trying to tell me, but it felt like they were connecting it somehow

to Ocarina and I just didn't remember. But maybe it's all new. Maybe they're just making this stuff up and it doesn't have anything to do with anything. And then they're just gonna reveal uh who you're talking about or who they're talking about. Um I'll have to go back and look for the actual Yeah, no, that I I just looked it up while you were um while you were talking and it and it it is the suggestion that he is looking for Navi.

Um yeah, okay. So so that is new though, right? He's he he something has happened that we haven't seen that means Navi's gone. Navy didn't disappear in Awkward Rio. Yeah. Okay.

So maybe this is just a new conceit that they've created to give this a thrust. Yeah. Um Yeah, I can't I can't I'm I'm terrible with the story stuff in in games. There are some some s things that stick with me, but the The overall stories often don't I I'm No, and I wasn't expecting you to I know you won't answer me, but um but it was it was looking it up, it's so it sounds like people understand it to be um

Uh it's it's oh, they even says there's a faint fairy sound that happens when that title card is up, so it maybe is it's there. It's just subtle. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Anyway, I'm just kind of intrigued to know

I don't know. I'm just trying to think when whenever they end Not to go too far backwards, but whenever they end a Zelda game and they're about to start the next game. I just I what is that gotta be like? Yeah, it's gotta be the weirdest thing. They have they have some and that's why this this game is so interesting to me because they have some built in structure and conceits that work for them in that case, right? So

Um, meaning that Zelda is more of a myth, right? Right, right, yeah. Than a story. And so starting a new one, like Wind Waker is a great example, right? It's like Yeah, we're just it's just a new one. And you know, it's like the same old, you know, starting more driven by what they want to do with the hardware or whatever. And it's a really good showcase in that way of like oh we can

We can choose whatever we want to do with this because now we have this hardware that does this and we aren't tied to a specific thing. You know, there is some. general format um that then they broke finally with um Breath of the Wild, right? Of there was a kind of general form there for a number of years. But they could break away from it, you know. And like, you know what, we're gonna no, actually we're gonna do this thing now. And we can we kinda change up the real

feel of how the game, you know, plays as well. So yeah, it's it's a good idea. History. Mm apparently in in they did release a book that that did um The High Rule Historia. Yeah, they did they did canonize it, but I have a feeling that they've already broken that since then. Or that they don't really care. I don't think they really care. I mean there is there is a sense in which uh you know there is a There's basically Arcarina of Time is the split point for how everything happens

After that's right. That's right. Yeah, I've looked at that. It's oh I don't know. It's it's madness. It's so silly. Yeah. It's like i I mean that's right. This is coming back.

I don't think they care and I wish they I think players are like, We wanna know this and they're like, Yeah, but there is no this. You we're here or let's make something up for you. Um, because you seem to want it so bad. So I think I'm I this is ringing a bell when we played maybe Ocarina or one of the others that that we talked about this because We I think I had looked up that chart. And that part of it. I might even have that book or y I had the book. Um and

I remember now that my pretty strong opinion of it is that they should have well left well enough alone. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like it it it actually makes it less Um, and this is gonna I'm gonna wrap this back to major's in a second. It it makes it less meaningful to me.

Ironically, as somebody who is a lore guy and a fiction guy and does love all of that stuff, again, I'm literally watching a thirty part series on the floor behind Diablo. Okay. Um right now. Um that for Zelda specifically, because of its its myth mythological structure. I think it's much better for it. And it's it's like anything. As soon as you explain a joke, it's not a joke anymore. So

As soon as they explain this right, you know, away. So that's why Majora's is so weird to me, because it is so so far, because we've only done the first session, so directly Connected. Yeah. And it it even feels like it is. It's the same lake, right? So Same link. That's not clearly true of any of the other games. Oh yeah, good point. Good point. Yeah. And I don't I didn't play Skyward Swords, so I don't know if that's the case between

Yeah, I don't either. Twilight Princess and Twilight Princess and Skywiss River, because those are both we that one, those two seem closer together. And of course there's Minishkin, you know, the the the Capcom ones. Right. But again, even though those were so directly connected, uh seasons and seasons and ages. All right. Ages. Yeah.

ones like the that's the spin-offs, the train one and the whatever. Right. So they have like these categories of Zelda games, but And this one is it feels like because of the title cards in the beginning, it feels like this is a continuation to me. Yes. And it's really catching me off guard. I gotta be honest. I'm like but but there are moments when I'm like happy that it's that way too.

So I'm really conflicted. Yeah. Well and and I think the thing that that excites me about it and makes me interested in it is the the tone and then the the sort of structure of the game, you know, which If you're going to try to make something in a year, um, you're gonna reuse these assets, you know, having a place that you're gonna retr kind of constantly be in and s and learning kind of more about as you go, like almost like a roguelike, um

is really a good direction to to take it, right? Is you know, it's like you can twist it so it feels the just overall feeling is very different. And then that mere fact you know, with this kind of psychedelic or horror kind of feel, um, you know, that you

Just having that and then being like, and you know what, we're also gonna change the format up a little bit. Yeah, sure, there's gonna be dungeons and things, but um there's this overall conceit of, you know, you have three days to save the world and And you kind of look at it and you're like, Well, how am I gonna do that? Um, and so it it puts this mystery into it as well that is very different from

You know, really any other uh Zelda game. So it and certainly as a sequel it's like, wow, this is a real departure, you know. Um Yeah. You know, it it feels like going Uh, I don't know, Yojimbo de Sangero or something like that. But the you're still a samurai in both both of those movies or whatever. But uh I don't know. I'm trying to trying to think of things that are yeah, it is sort of like um The spaghetti westerns where it's like It's always s sort of Clint Eastwood's character

But it can be very different, you know, going from you know one to the other and in in terms of the overall feel of what's going on. And this definitely has that same like, oh wait, what is this now? This is very strange. Um so Yeah, I mean the Groundhogs Day of it all and and of course we gotta mention it even in the first episode because I just you know, finished um Outer Worlds. Right. Um Outer Wilds, sorry. Outer Wilds, yeah.

Um, so I made that mistake again. But yeah, outer wilds and um and I one thing I didn't know before we started doing a little bit of prep for for this episode. is major's mass metacritic is still very high. Yeah. Which I was also surprised to see. Like very high. There are some people for for whom this is their favorite. Yeah. I know, I know. And so that the f because of the structure is what it is, and because Outer Wilds is such a brilliant game.

You know, and and I would hope, like not even, you know, like in a in a bad way, I would hope that this game influenced Outer Wilds, right? As far as like how they were thinking. Um And so, you know, just the typical Groundhog Day kind of structure. And there's plenty of movies and And things that have that have done that before too. So I it's and to your point on the roguelike elements of it, you know, there's definitely a lineage of of these sorts of replayable

timeline based games in our past, right? Yeah. Uh even just based on something purely structurally like a rogue game like rogue, which is not about the story or about a time limit. It's just

you're gonna be playing it multiple times. Right. You know, so you kinda you can kind of get there, but man, I just really wish we could be in the room when they were figuring this out or like, you know what we're gonna do. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and the wiki mentions Run Lola Run is a ninety eight film that I do remember liking and and I remember it being pretty big. you know, in the art film community and uh I I I I I haven't seen it in a long time, but I do remember

Which was a loop based, time loop based. Yeah, I watched it just a few years ago. It's very um yeah, it's definitely it's wild. It's it's it's pretty short too. It's only an hour and twenty minutes, but but yeah, it's the same sort of thing where you know, you branch off and you have kind of these different endings to the story, but you are compressing

And sort of replaying the be the beginning of the story, right? So that you can kinda get deeper in as you go, which is sort of what happens here as well. So I can definitely get that sense. It was like, I mean here To to start getting into the so you get into this town after you kinda have this weird hor horror start. Um, we'll get back to the happy mask shop guy'cause you you come back to him.

We can talk about our feelings about him then. Um, you're getting this sense of this town. It's a very occarina of time kind of blueprint. So I appreciate that the they've thrown you this kind of curveball of like the tone of this thing and like the kind of scary start to it, the loneliness and all that. They then do plop you down into t in a town where there is the the blueprint of the sort of how the quest design and direction of that all works together, right? If of like

You come into this place and you've got this, you've been turned into a deco scrub and you're like, I don't know what's going on with that. I've got this mask on that I can't take off. Uh but it lets me do some things, so I can, you know, try to use that. Um but you're kind of running around and you do know like

I I think is basically the first person you talk to, or maybe it's the masked guy, they're b basically point you at the the the fairy, the great fairy who's in town somewhere. So you're like you're doing very familiar ocarina, you know, stuff at this point. It's like, oh, I'm gonna run around

Talk to everybody, you know, get clues about stuff. But then the thing that happens, this compression that I was alluding to before is like, yeah, but I'm gonna learn stuff at that point that I then don't have to repeat to get that information. That's how they do that compression. It's like there's these steps to a quest to get the code to get to the observatory.

And, you know, which is like four, three, two, one, five. But once you have that number, you have that number. You know, you don't have to redo the quest steps. to get that number. So that's a that's a way that's sort of like a very outer wilds kind of feeling thing as you as you point out. Um but I do really like that they give the player some handholds here of like, you know, okay this

You know how to do this. If you play Darena, like you understand this part of the this part of the game. And this other weird stuff we're gonna expose you to, you know, we've given you a taste, but you're gonna see more of it. Um But here's the thing you know how to do, so go do it, you know. And I think that that's a that's a good way to maintain your players, you know, to make them not completely put off.

Yeah. I it's a good point. I I think we've talked about probably more than any other with any other company that we've played over the years multiple times, obviously Nintendo at this point that There are few companies that the player can generally always trust, at least for the games we're gonna play in the podcast, which are right, yeah, which are gonna be the Nintendo games that are legendary games. Um no pun intended, I guess. Uh That

you know, the you you can trust that they're going to give you what you need, you know. Um, and because they're like you said, the tone op the tonal opening of the game is so different and weird and unexpected to me. Doing quests right away, knowing the routine. You know, I really enjoy already just in the first session l uh learning the town. Yeah. Um, I've talked about that on the podcast many times. Like I love that concept you know, just the the feeling of getting to know a place.

Really well. How it all connects together and just getting better at it, et cetera. And this one seems like you're gonna really need to know that because you're Well, and especially with a quest, you know, the quest that they give you, which is to find these five kids. You're getting that like, Oh, I've got a I've gotta see every nook and cranny'cause that's where they're gonna be hiding. Which is great, a great quest choice. Yeah.

And it reminds me of the chick of the the chicken chicken, you know, and so there's like these these familiar things that yes. Well it even references that. One of the get one of them is one of them has a chicken, yeah. So it's It's a lot of like little little callbacks that are well put together despite, you know, its goal of this reuse and and

faster development cycle. So they, you know, and and it isn't a Baldur's Gate two situation where they they know the tools and so they're gonna be able to make so much more content. I mean maybe it is a long game, I don't know, but but it It it's them

finding clever ways to use what they know in an unexpected way rather than making more of exactly the same structure as Ocarina, at least so far. Right. I know there's dungeons and that sounds like and they've already introduced us to the four regions and stuff, so I can

I can already imagine who's gonna be there, to be honest. Because you know Yeah, you know you know all the players. I mean that's all still there today. So yeah. Yeah, and Breath of the Wild, same thing, right? The four yeah, so the four giants, whatever they're called. The beasts. Yeah, and one for each of the the different species of of of you know characters. So um

I'm yeah, I mean I'm hook I'm already hooked. I'm intrigued. The structure of the quests are great. You know, it it it very pr very much you know, lets you lead yourself, you know, by the hand and and then eventually you get to the uh to the observatory so you get to, you know.

Um, look through a telesc a telescope, which immediately made me think Walton before. Um, and you look and you see the f the creepy skull kid who is who has Majora's mask on and is the one that had turn you into a Deku kid. Um creepy. Yeah, and he's yeah, he's on top of the Yeah.

The clock tower is like a gun? I don't know what's going to convince it. That's a very weird that's a really weird thing. I didn't I don't quite get that either. I don't know what that what's going to happen. And then we'll talk about the moon later too, I'm sure. But like the the moon is So amazing. Yeah. It's this physically, you know, three 3D object that's out in the world, but it's got a face like.

Uh what's that French film, the famous one? Oh the Meliers, the the Trip to the Moon. Yeah. Trip to the Moon. Yeah. So it's it's got it's Zelda's version of Trip to the Moon. But creepier. I don't know what's going on in this game. Like it's this is a complete su now, I you know, I hadn't when we played Ocarina of Time, I probably mentioned it back then, but I hadn't never finished Ocarina of time. We played for the podcast. And I definitely had never started Majora. So I only knew of it.

through through the murmurs of kind of its structure. And so I'm I'm kind of like this is an op you know uh Not an open book, but it's a closed book. It's a it's a it's a mystery to me. And I do appreciate that I don't know very much. Which might be a good segue to the mass.

The happy mask shop guy. Happy mask shop. So we've we both basically played a day and then Tim I've I've done this before, so um well a cycle, right? It's three days technically. Well, yeah, sorry. Uh th a three day cycle. Um Where Uh basically at the end of this first little chain of quests, you have regained your ocarina, which the skull kid stole. You actually know that you need to bring that back to the happy master shop guy because he tells you. Um

you know, the what was taken from you when you when you get that, I will I'll basically restore your face. I'll take off that mask uh that you've that have been put on you. But you you you recall the last song that you had from Zelda And that's is the song of time, which of course used a ton in of Acary Time. So they're also reusing this this other mechanical element um from the prior game, which will be familiar, right, to most players, I would say.

So they have that as well of just like here oh, here's this mechanic you know and like you're gonna get these songs. And you like they can reuse all the interface for all of that and the mac the the button mechanics and everything. Um, which is great. I mean it's just like, oh of course, you know, just do that. Um you can make so much more out of the th the things we make. Uh that they then um

You know, they basically then you go and play the song and it takes you back to the the beginning of the first day and you went back to the happy mask shop guy. So why don't you take that part of it because I I will do that next next time. Yeah, I mean I just get Yeah, exactly. I mean Skull Kid himself is is definitely a a weird character and very creepy and very like um gesture like, but not there's another

iconic character that's I'm blanking on, but kind of you know, again just kind of creepy movement. Very yeah, horror, I think you mentioned horror when in pre-show right away, and I hadn't thought about it, but he's he's a very horror-feeling character for a Zelda. Yeah, it's because of the way he moves mostly. His his neck will start off at forty five degrees and then like

Tick tick tick tick tick tick, you know, into like he almost feels like a clockwork under there the way he moves and is very he has very jerky movement. Um very strange. He he feels like a puppet, you know, of some kind. Yeah, Marion Yeah, Marionette. Um And then if you look behind the mask, his face

Looks like kind of just like a scarecrow like he doesn't have a a face behind there. It's just a like a Yeah, like e yeah, yeah, sure, Vivi. Uh um So anyway, yeah, so so you have that kind of villain character. But I have a prediction, another prediction that maybe is super obvious to people. And don't tell me if if this is if if we're on to something. Yeah, so you um oh and then the other thing, sorry, before I go to the happy mask guy.

You can't defeat him, quote unquote defeat uh Skull kid in the tower. Right. In in this first cycle, which with any good, you know, uh re repeating cycle game, you know you're gonna be back here. And so I do love the idea that probably you're gonna be back here, you know, and at some point you are gonna have what you need to take them out.

Yeah. Um and so that's kind of expecting to look forward to. Yeah. But then you so shortly after that, it's literally through the door after you finish. Uh the door is at the the base of the tower, so you can very quickly go back to the happy Ma uh Happy Mask merchant. Shop. Yeah. Shop. Happy Mask Shop guy. Okay. Um I'll never remember that. Um for some reason. His name is. Sure. Okay, so you head back to All Rocks and he is already a creepy, creepily happy character and like

one of those other characters in horror movies that are always smiling and something's going through their heads that you're not happy that you're not happy about. He's looking for the Majora's mask itself, which Skull Kid has on. And so you don't bring it back. You know, you you do show him the Ocarina. So he cures you of your Deku kid. form, but then that allows you to now, I guess, have your first mask, which is super exciting to me that

this concept of you're gonna get multiple masks and the masks give you new mechanics and stuff and that you can reuse them. So now I can put this mask on at any time. I'm back to a kid. But when he discovers that you didn't get the Majora's mask for him, he flips out and he gets wild eyes. You see behind his mask. Yeah. He picks up he picks up Link and literally shakes him. Yeah. And puts him, you know, like he is unhappy and then and then he snaps back to his smile.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, this guy's the final boss. It's a very it's a very Disney villain kind of feeling, right? Of like Yeah, yeah. You know, they're or certain strain of Disney villain where they're very syrupy and nice Until that moment when when you say something that they don't like and they flip out, you know, and you're like Whoa, oh, okay. I didn't know that was behind there. Um for sure. So yeah.

I don't know. He's memorable on in like thirty po polys of of his head, right? It's it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And there's always creepy music and weird music playing in these interactions. So that helps as well. The music speeds up by the way as the day as the the last day gets closer to the end of the day, which is great. And the uh I don't know if this happens on the switch port, but the um

When you are getting to the end of an individual day, it's uh in the last few ticks of the clock the Oh, the rumble. Well, there's a rumble, but also the screen gets smaller. Um or it's more it's like there's bars that come in. It goes it goes black to s to put up the title card of like this dawn of the second day or whatever. Um but basically it's like a box closes in. It's like, um... I don't know what kind of wipe that is, but um it's sort of like a wipe in film where you

you bring in black from the edges to the center, but it's in steps, you know, chunk, chunk, chunk. Um to go with the clockwork, which is the timing thing, yeah, is is really good. So I'm interested to know how that's gonna work. Um but yeah, and the the the the happy shop happy mask shop guy is Super interesting. He's got a backpack with a bunch of masks on it that are also creepy. So he, you know, I just feel like, yeah, um, maybe it's super obvious, but

I'd think there's more going on. And of course he wants Majora's Mask. It's this legendary mask that caused all his problems and super powerful. And if he wants it, then he's probably bad. So we'll see what happens. The only time I've ever gotten Majora's Mask was in Um Breath of the Wild. So okay. Yeah. Uh which you can wear and what is it? I forget.

Oh man, that game's so good. Um I forget what it does. I'll have to look it up, but you it it does give you, I think, an ability, uh a simple a simple ability. No, okay. Um, yeah, this is something. This is gonna be something. Um I'm I'm impressed so far though. I will say that the happy mask shop guy, other than his kind of creepy smile. Reminds me there was a movie. Um I had to look it up because I was like, I I thought I knew what it was called, but it's called King of Masks.

from it's a Chinese it's a Chinese film, so I'm I'm not sure how influential it would have been japa in Japan'cause there's a sort of antipathy there. Um But uh but is about the sort of history of mask performance. you know, there's kind of a last practitioner kind of guy who's teaching uh

you know, a young child, um, you know, I haven't seen it in whatever that is, thirty years now. So I d I don't remember a lot about the specifics, but it's sort of like the quick change of masks. Um, I think they use paper basically to do uh emotional changes, you know, so it's like a mask that's gonna kinda pulled down. Super um interesting uh film from around the same time, which is why it kinda came to mind. But um anyway.

He he definitely this happy mask shop fellow made me think of that. Um older character in that who is the performer and kinda looks that way in terms of like how he moves around in the world is like a like a tinker, you know, type of type of person. Um with a big backpack. So

That reminds me one quick thing I wanted to mention that about the way that they're presenting these characters, especially in the sort of like interstitial like cutscene interactions when you're talking to them. Yeah. I wanted to actually ask you to look out for it next time you play.

And I don't know if it's a performance issue weird performance issue or if it's a bug or if it's real,'cause that might be my imagination. Okay. But when you're in dialogue with somebody and they cut away outside of character or uh player control. Um, there's these very quick cuts that they wouldn't have had in Ocarina. um, between like lines of dialogue. So a character will say a line of dialogue and then they will

It it's not a c um it's not I guess it's technically a cut, but it's doesn't cut the camera angle. It just like the animation of the character cuts and like and it's like um A very quick removal of of an animation blend. So it makes it look

It makes it look very like stuttery in a way. Like not stuttery I don't know how to explain it, but there's these very creepy just watch when you're talking to somebody and you're going to be able to do it. Yeah, I'll I'll look out for that. I didn't I didn't notice it, but I

It's a subtle thing, but I'm wondering if they're trying to simulate some of that horror movie those horror movie tropes where you have those quick cuts, right, when um when a a character is moving toward you, right, in camera. Like or a st or a strobe effect or something like that. Yeah, sort of. Yeah. But it's just like these one cuts in between their sentences. And so I was like, That was weird. Did I just see that? But I saw it multiple times so

If it's there and it's consistent, then you know, that's another choice for them to give you that unsettling feel. And it's I think it's only been Is that true? It might have only been with those two characters, the two villains. So Okay. Okay. Yeah, I know. He's he's already a v I mean, he's a villain in our heart.

Um all right. Well let's uh let's turn to email. I do want to do at least a couple emails because I want to start catching up. Um so go ahead and because we we do have uh a little bit of buildup. Um so go ahead and Uh go ahead and give us that first one. I just read the sign off of the second one. That is a good sign off. Okay. Um playing RPGs diegetically from Colonel uh Ko uh

Yeah, Colonel Cavallio, I think. Cavallo, yes, yes. Sorry. I think Colonel Cavallio's been on my stream, so I apologize, Colonel. Um longtime listener, first time writer, I was uh re-listening to your Marrowin series for the third time. I had a couple of questions I wanted to ask. Uh oh. Uh that was a while ago. I know this is now years late, uh so I will try to generalize them a bit to make uh and maybe make things relevant also.

First, you noted how dry Marrowin's opening was in comparison to things uh like Skyrim or Farlop Three. While I while I agree going through customs i is certainly boring, it's also pres uh presented quickly. The player can create a new character and begin exploring in less than five minutes. Um

Skyrim, Fallout 3, Metal Grisola, etc., all have extended openings that build atmosphere and character for uh and character the first time, but become tedious to experience on repeated playthroughs. How much of a concern is this and how do you s resolve it? Second Um, I wanted to take a moment to compliment how Marrowin handles its main plot as an open world RPG.

Again, solving Oblivion, uh sorry, taking Oblivion or Skyrim as examples, there is an ever-present and expanding threat that both the player and character are supposed to give overwhelming, uh, overwhelming priority. Uh while this motivates the main plot well, it makes it hard uh to justify playing side quests in character. At least to me.

It often seems designers want players to play non-giagetically. Sure, the emperor was just assassinated in front of you. This is in quotes. Uh warning the world is about warning the world is about to end, but why not become an an an arena gladiator? Or help a village full of invisible people. Yeah, that's a good point. This is a age old question. Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Fallout New Vegas do a better job pacing wow, Daggerfall.

Um pacing the main plot in my opinion. The threat is present and needs to be dealt with, but not necessarily imminent to the point of a c uh point a character couldn't uh justify taking days, weeks, or months to gather strength, allies, etc. I guess my question is how do developers square that circle? Um, how can you craft a well-motivated main plot in an open world RPG, but also leave open opportunities for a player to justify in character taking a break to chop wood or join a guild?

i. e. role play. Respectively respectfully Colonel Caval Cavallio. Cavallio. Cavallo, yes. Cavallo. Um Okay, so the how much of a concern is the the unskippable thing at the beginning and how do you resolve it? I mean in the case of Bethesda games, there's mods and those mods take those things out. Um it's kind of the way Which I think is telling. Yeah, yeah. Uh for sure. I mean but I I also think that It's rare.

For developer to care about repeat play for a game that is not structured around repeat play, um, i.e. a roguelike or whatever a roguelike. Um because Most players will not. So who cares? Right. I mean, so it so it's like How much of a concern is it? Eh, it's not really a concern because very few people are gonna do it and if they love it that much, they probably won't mind uh replaying. Although I I do get occasional crap from people about Republic Commando's unskippable uh opening cutscenes.

Which was for technical reasons. And you can go hit listen to that uh in our series about that. So in terms of resolving it, I mean you could do things like a press hold to skip and only do that the, you know, second time or whatever. Um but like that is such a low priority feature compared to the millions of other things you're trying to do when you ship that

Yeah. I mean we just ultimately we don't we don't care I would say man. Um I mean we uh you know for somebody who's uh uh you know it's like Do you really think that's a good idea? They love the book, so let just let them read the book again, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I get you. Well, i i I think what what you're pointing out. For for the first question, yeah. What you're pointing out still is is which I agree with is Uh

Uh it's n for me it's not as much about not caring, which I I know what you're saying, but you're also I get I get what you mean. I'm saying it in the way I say things, Tim, as you know. Yeah, yeah. So I understand. But the other side of it is Any especially creative endeavor, but any, I guess I'll just say product endeavor, which a game is a product as well, you you are thinking about your you have to think about your audience.

And you have to think about that audience is not one person, it's not um only one type of person either. Yeah. And so at the end of the day, you have to kind of like you have to pick your battles and you have to pick how you're going to Um,'cause you can't do everything in a game, right? When a game development. In fact

those who try, you know, usually uh I don't know, it's probably a debate when it comes to Bethesda games on this on this topic, but um I have my opinions that I think are well stated. Anyway, um so uh you know, game developers have to pick their battles and they have to pick the, you know, for the greater good. And to Brett's point, um They're those games are hundreds of hours long for your first playthrough.

And nobody, almost nobody from a statistics standpoint is gonna go back. Now Skyrim is definitely an anomaly because we know that people have played that game. Many times, it's been out many times. You know, they keep remastering it. There's probably gonna be a second remaster someday.

Mm-hmm. Or it'll be even prettier. It's like people. This is Tim saying this, so I have no comments. No, no, no. I don't know. But there was a whole gag about it being on your fridge at uh that Xbox presser some years ago. Um so anyway, yeah, it's just it's just you gotta make those calls and uh and I and I always agree with those calls generally'cause as long as as long as you have chosen the audiences appropriate. The uh the second question is about crafting a well motivated main plot.

Um in an open world RPG that leaves opportunities for players to justify the the you know, taking breaks to to do all this other side stuff, right? I mean'cause the open world games are kind of filled with it. And I think that um it's kind of a similar

answer there in some ways. I mean there's there's two there's two I have two answers. One is um Bethesda is also you know, in the case of those games, is c is trying to c craft an experience that they know their players want, even though there may be some players who

are enamored with the plot. There's a large number of players who are like, Oh, uh the game wants me to go to the right. Well, I'm going to the left. Right. You know, that that's and that's probably a larger part of the player base for their game specifically. Um And they know that those people just accept this. But the other answer to that and the more real answer I think is you have to write that in. It's the writing quality that makes that work. And Um

you know, to have the sense that this is important but not necessarily urgent, as in like this has to be done immediately. And you can do this in a number of ways. Um, you know, I think

With oblivion you you mention, um, you know, you have those kind of gates, oblivion gates, I guess, that are popping up all over the place. Those are actually, it turns out, optional, I learned uh when I went to work there. Uh I think it came up in my interview and I was like, I would probably make it so there weren't so many of those.

And Todd's like, Oh yeah, you don't have to do this. Um they po they just pop up randomly on the world and I'm like, Oh my god, I gotta go deal with that you know and um at a certain point there's a like a lot of them and I'm like, Oh my god, these are all over the place. You know, uh turns out you don't have to do them, so But doing some signaling to the player of like there's another way to solve this problem or um

You know, or whatever, you know, to in the writing and construction of that plot is how you deal with it, right? I mean that's why some work for you and some don't. Um, is because those were kind of built those plots were built either the plots themselves were built better to support that, or the writing that supported the plots, um, you know, were more convincing to you. I uh I think that's really just a

a matter of that, um, for the most part. It's attention though. I mean it's it's totally attention in these games of like, I'm the chosen one. I have to go, you know, kill the elder dragon thing or whatever. Um and You know, but but meanwhile, you know, I could set up a really neat s neat postal business. You know, it's like, well what? You know, like it's um the scale is often really oft as far as as like the things you can do as well. So it just feels weird. Um but anyway.

Yeah, I uh I don't remember what I said about Marrowin specifically back when we played it, so I apologize, but um But I do generally appreciate what um what the colonel's saying here as far as when games do focus on this.

And uh there's nothing more really to add beyond what Brett was saying. You know, my my summary of this is it you just have to make it a priority from the beginning that that is a goal of yours. And because we're video games, there's a lot of released tension and it does make things generally easier if you don't worry about it and you just admit you're a video game.

And the the the emperor's gonna be fine. You'll figure it out eventually. And we don't care. It's a video game. Do it when you want to. Because the player agency is more important to me than the logic of that. But if you make it priority, it it's harder, but you can figure it out. Is you know, without revealing re revealing anything on the podcast.

A lot of time and energy and debate went into it for Halo Infinite. Um because when I was on that project, so that's when we developed the structure of the story and Paul Crocker, Troy Mashburn, myself and many others. um, Justin Tingis and so there's a lot of team members there w where we were debating how are we gonna you know, are we gonna worry about this? Um

And luckily Halo as a franchise gives you even more flexibility'cause it's very military focused, if you will. Right. Even though I know there's a lot of Mysticism too. So you get a lot of you got you get some freebies there'cause, you know, military is like, do the orders, go do the things or whatever. Go do the thing, yeah. Um But it's not it's not easy to do and but but we did prioritize it and we tried and Paul ended up being the one to and Troy to take that over. But um I think you know

I I I'm really wondering, though it it would be a priority for me anytime I were if I were ever to work on an open world game with a story again. I would agree with Colonel and I would want to make it a priority, but I do think it is debatable on if you can justify how many people in the audience care. Yeah. To that point, I had a conversation with Richard Lamarchand, um

God, this is a name drop special'cause it's a w it was at um Clint Hawking's party he did at G D C'cause he was at Lucas Arts at that time. Wow Um so we we were at his house. Were you drinking a martini as well? I did bring him a g a gin gift as a like a house a house gift um when I arrived. But um I don't know if Clint remembers that. It was kind of a nice peppery gin that I I liked. Um but anyway, so I was talking with Richard Hamilton.

Yep, who was the uh the director of at least Uncharted Two and I think also Uncharted Three, uh but had been at um been there for ages at uh Naughty Dog. Uh and had previously been um also at uh Crystal. Anyway, he he literally asked asked me like, you know, how do you balance this like this main quest thing and like kind of keeping that story in your mind while you're doing all these other random things? And I said, Richard, we don't care if they finish the main quest.

That's not the game. Like that's you know, that's one thing you can do in the game if that's your thing. Um but he was he was just he looked literally gobsmacked of just coming from a naughty dog that question coming from a naughty naughty dog person is pretty Pretty ripe. Yeah. So it's it was just like, yeah, we don't You know, that's not what we're doing, you know, and i it's what you're doing for sure. And I get why you would ask that.

Um but it's not what we're doing. You know, it's we want people to go and have their, you know, Viking fantasy, you know uh Nordic fantasy, you know, whatever, high fantasy epic blotty blah, you know, and whatever that looks like to them is good for us, you know, and if they engage with the main story, awesome. You know, and if they don't

you know, if it's not their thing or if they just kinda wanna go finish it off when they're d they're done with the game, they wanna see that end game stuff. Well, you know, that's fine with us too. Um so he was Uh definitely kinda like, huh, how about that? Um that was a surprising answer to him. How does how does um in in that same vein, I know you've played, I think all of them And I haven't really I don't know why that they don't really stick with me. Um Insomniac's open world game.

Generally have a pretty good story, right? Yeah. Yeah, they tend to. Yeah. Do they deal with this at all, or do they also just kinda know it's a game? They d it's very much this is a game, but I think that You know, in some of them it m it just naturally makes sense that the character is invested in doing these other things. So if it's Spider Man.

Spider Man's a hero and he's gonna go do these heroic things and help people with all the random stuff that he helps people with. You know, even though there's an overarching more important big bad, there's kind of a sense of like

That's just he's gonna catch that mugger. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. He's gonna that's because he's there, you know, and that's what he does. And they kind of they do different structures to deal with that in different in different ones of those games. Um And uh you know, and th the same is true of of um What's their name? Sucker Punch, I think, does some of that too, where they they kind of they're at least their samurai ones, it's like, Well, this is still a samurai.

Yeah, he still cares about these things, right? There's um yeah, exactly. Um so I think that that's another thing that you can do, I guess, is like but these are games in which there is a specific character, so you can build off of that. Whereas of course you know, a Skyrim or other Beth as the game. There is no specific character other than they're fill they're filling this role. But who that character is

You know, is very much up to the player. So you you don't have that kind of and in fact they're they're always convex basically, right?'Cause they're they're starting off on the prison ship or, you know, on the in the wagon or and the unskippable section at the beginning. So That's an issue.

Um I am gonna read a relatively short one here, um, just to to check another one off, although we're starting to go long. This one is Ultima Four Morality in Gameplay, uh from Sasha, who you remember wrote to us recently with a very um Quirky email. This one's a little shorter. Uh dear Brett and Tim, uh I hope you're both well. Uh firstly, if it's not too annoying or nerdy, um I thought I should add a PSA about controllers from last time.

Uh, Brett, you can use a PS four or PS five controller on your PS three, preserving most functionality, which is somebody mentioned in the Discord as well. And I was like, what? Um So that was uh that was fun to learn. I was like, Oh, okay, well I have a couple of DS. D S fours um lying around because I P S five plays every

all the PlayStation 4 games, so I can just use those controllers on my PS3. So that's good to know. So thanks to whoever mentioned in the Discord and thanks also to Sasha. Um Uh, Sasha continues, I played through Symphony of the Night this way because the PS4 controller has a smoother, more comfy D pad.

And Tim, you're right, Nintendo's industrial design should be more ergonomic. Uh and not that I'm asking you to buy things, but seeing as you like Wavebird so much, I had to mention this, there's a Nitro deck thing that you can pop your switch into. uh available in GameCube colors and it's much more comfortable uh as modeled here as a picture uh by his by his wife. Um So it's basically... Uh like a dock. Where in the

you have the controllers on the sides that are more ergonomic. Um so, you know, third party controller stuff. Uh anyway, so okay, with that out of the way, um your series on Ultima Four got me thinking about morality in gameplay. Uh so I have a question for each of you. Um do you act honorably? And kindly towards the world, uh, when playing games in general, uh or you know, even when the game doesn't care. Uh cheers, Sasha.

Um so in my in my case, as I think I mentioned, I tend to prefer to play uh the best version of myself or the character. Um So that's just my my preference generally. I tend not to play a lot of games where you are a criminal. Um You know, not never, but generally not, uh, with the rare exception of the sort of uh you know, grindhouse kinda aesthetic. And that's more because I enjoy the grindhouse aesthetic than the than the wanting to play the bad guy. Um I just like the the idea of

how games ex explore kind of different cinematic traditions, I guess. And so I'm curious about those. But for the most part, I definitely prefer to play a heroic uh kind of character. I'm very simple that way. How about you? Or you you're pretty much always a villain, I think. No. No. I was thinking I was thinking of our friend and uh former interview Lanny. Uh Yeah. And and how she plays games. Lanny is the definitely o the opposite. Yeah. Yeah. She's a happy mask shop uh for sure.

Uh we should ask her about that. What did you think of that? Um uh yeah, no, I I generally even again, even if the game doesn't support it, I generally Yeah. Um I I do I mean, I think because games for me are, you know, they're obviously for various reasons, but escapism's a big one. fantasy fulfillment or, you know, um is another one. And so I I think that s escaping into a world and being

a good person, you know, is is not that I'm a bad person in real life, but just, you know, it real life is more complicated. So yeah. Um so I I do appreciate role playing that out in in most games. Yeah. Unless there's I mean you know, there's always those there's always those sort of exceptions to the rule. I don't know where Agent forty seven lands on this. I mean true. Yeah.

I think he is a villain, but he typically he kills people, he's a villain. So but but I love but I love those games, so I'm very conflicted. Right, about that series. I'm talking about hypnosis. The people he's killing are also very bad. Um Yeah, and I try to only kill them. So where's the wish fulfillment? Is kind of the question for me. That is a good question. I don't aspire

to be the villains that we have in real life. Um, so I don't want to play games typically that are those kinds of villains. You know what I mean? Um and there's plenty of villainy in the world right now. So it's like as you say, when you're escaping, it's like I also want to escape the villainy. Um, so anyway.

Okay, well thanks for those emails. They were sent to devgameclub at gmail.com. We have a few more, so we'll be catching up uh over the next couple of episodes, I'm sure, but we always love to have them. Uh we also love to have your reviews. You can shoot us those on the Apple Podcast infrastructure or wherever you can review podcasts. And uh, you know, if we don't happen to catch it, please uh send it in. We'd love to read them on the cast, uh, or even just for ourselves.

We're on the web at devgameclub.com and my co-host here twitches at twitch.tv slash Tim Longa Jr. with the JR at the end. But this week you are traveling, and so this week you will not be. Not be, yes. No no stream this week. We're also recording early, so yeah. Earlier in the week because of that. So uh yeah. But this Wednesday, um I I'm um when I do get back to it next week most likely, I think uh

Head back to Dwarf Fortress though,'cause I'm a little hitman out. I've been frustrated. You've been uh yeah, you've been trying to do the one thing. You know, the I got a very close very close to a perfect run on on it though, finally on Paris, but for for the Renchi run. Yeah. Um

'Cause I found that screwdriver. So it's important. You gotta find the screwdriver. Uh we are also if we as uh we've mentioned, there's a community run Discord for the cast, and you can find that link in our show notes. Our intro and outro music was written and performed by Kirk Hamilton, commissioned by a friend of the cast, Aaron Evers, and our logo, merch store, our Discord, all by Mark Garcia. Have fun plotting one of your no-good tricks this week, and good night. Good night.