Hi, Welcome to Desperately Devoted The Ultimate Desperate Housewives rewatch, hosted by Meat Terry Hatcher, my on screen daughter Andrea Bowen, and my real life daughter Emerson Tenney.
Wow.
Today we are discussing episode four, Who's That Woman which could also potentially be called Mincemeat, and what an episode it is. We have Lynette grappling with whether or not to give her children medication for add.
And Susan is being blackmailed by missus Hooper, who claims to know that the measuring cup found in Edie's fire belongs to Susan and Julie.
Brie continuing to struggle with her marriage to Rex, and Gabby continuing her affair with John as Carlos's suspicion grows to the point of him assaulting a cable guy and inadvertently committing a hate crime.
All extremely problematic in many ways. The episode wraps up with Brie stealing Mary Alice's tapes from her therapist's office, and the women gathering together to try to get to the bottom of what is really going on in the young house.
Well, let's find out. Let's find out what's going on.
So many things to say about episode four, which aired October twenty fourth, two thousand and four. First of all, I just have to say, and I don't know who is what network you're watching this on or rewatching this on. I'm rewatching it on Hulu. And this was the first time that in the Hulu the recap that I presume is happens for any if you watch it because it's previously previously on And Mary Alice says it, And it's
the first time we actually hear Mary Alice say. As we see Bree turn up the little spikes in the pull out couch, she says, everyone has a little dirty laundry, And this was the slogan of the first season in all of the marketing, but it's the first time that someone's actually said it on the show.
Yeah, you're right.
That was a big tagline.
It was a big tagline on the dry cleaning back.
Everyone on the Yeah, on the poster for your Everything, everyone has a dirty well does everyone have a little dirty laundry?
I do, because I actually don't have a hamper right now. My hamper, No I do. My hamper was sold. I had it forever and I kept throwing wet wash cloths in it. And then in the couple of days clearly and in a couple of days it would take Then it like kind of ruined the bag, and then finally decided to throw it away.
Yeah, just you because I live alone, and I have like a first in the second floor, but you can reach you can see over from the second floor down to the first floor. I don't put my dirty clothes and a hamper anymore either.
I do you do down the way?
And I threw the banister down to the first floor, where eventually I will take them up the laundry room. But I just yeah, no, it's really it's gone.
I have I have a pile to the shower right now, and say this is.
Some reason someone should not live alone.
I love how quickly we turned right into something like as literal as let's talk about our dirty laundry process.
Well, I certainly don't have any secrets.
You don't have any secrets.
So this episode title is another song we're gonna you know, obviously we're going to go over the Sondheim references because it's such a cool part of this show. And anyway, this one happens to be from the show Follies. So for those out there who listen and care about that. Now you know who's.
Happy.
Yes, I know.
I found this to be and I really related to this an episode that really circled around identities and like how we identify ourselves. And I will admit that as a six year old woman who has had her adult daughter go off to begin her independent life. And even more so now no, I mean you, no, I.
Love it because you say I feel like you've said that for like, when I went to college, it was like she's going off to college. When I graduated, it was like she's graduating, She's beginning her adult life. Now I'm looking at twenty eight coming up, and she's like she's beginning her adult life.
Should I say beginning, Well, I meant more like, I feel like because you actually bring out points And I'm saying this for all the empty nesting moms that might be out there listening. I think I hear you. I empathize with you that you know the rule The first of all, there's no rule book to motherhood. You know, you have your child, and I mean there is like what to expect when you're expecting, and what to expect in the first five years. There's that kind of stuff,
but nobody really tells you. It's hard to know how you're going to evolve with your identity, and the identity that becomes very easy, and that I think mothers in general love is mom. Yeah, I'm a mom, and it means something to me, and it means something even more importantly to other people, and there's a value in it. And then these are the stages when you go off to college. It is one degree of no longer being a mom. You're still a mom.
I still went with you to like help pass out of my dorm.
Yeah, like, you know, I was still involved. I still got calls when you had the flu and you know, figuring it out.
However, flew a lot, and the first I was going out too much.
Then you graduate, so then that's another degree, like, oh okay, and she she did not come home to live with me. I mean she did a little bit because of COVID, but like she as soon as she could went to live in her own apartment. And now the next degree is you're a real working professional and you're living with your partner. Yeah, like so, I you know, I could argue that I am pushed aside.
The redefined And.
This is what other women my age or you know around my age.
That that are.
You get forced to redefine your identity. And it isn't as easy as it sounds. Because when you take away mom, if you're retired, which I am not, by the way, anybody looking to hire a.
Finish an actress ready to work.
I'm ready to work. But when you push aside that sort of day to day mom role, when you know, are not going to work every second, you have less and less things to sort of hang on to figure out what is your identity. And I'm right in that
stage where I'm trying to figure it out. And so I look at the women, the characters in this show, and I really get it and I feel again, I'm going to say, this is why a show like Desperate Housewives is lasting over generations, because people can relate to it for as kind of stereotypical and what's the word satirish, you know that is, you can still relate to it, and that's why you buy in.
You know, I'm so struck because I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, I'm about to put that identity on, you know, of motherhood and becoming a mom, and you know, it's it's I have thought about identity so much prior to watching this particular episode, just in this transitional phase I'm in in my life and kind of what type of mother do I want to be? And how does being Andrea now change when I become Andrea as a mom, And what do I want to model for my daughter? And how is she gonna look at me?
And what?
You know, all these things are.
All the right questions. Yeah, and you.
Know, I'm taking that and it's a good thing I'm watching Desert Housewives because I can hold from that, you know.
The worst, what is so bad? How each is interesting to.
Do their motherhood, you know, with some of the themes that I'm sure we'll we'll get into. But I do agree that the general theme woven between all the characters being routed around identity was really prevalent and has had me thinking a lot too.
Yeah.
I really resonated with the identity idea also, and this idea of labels. You know, with identity, we label ourselves. You know, you're either how high power exec or you're a stay at home mom. You're either Gabby the fashion model a stay at home wife, or you're Susan the working single mom. And I think I was thinking even at my age, you know, people in their mid late twenties,
early thirties. I feel like today we're in a time in society where a lot of I was gonna say artists my age, but I think it's people my age in general have more than one job and more than one identity that comes with it. You know, you work at a coffee shop and then you are an actor, or you work in a restaurant and you're a writer, or you have a marketing job and you're also pursuing producing. And I mean even for me, like we're doing this podcast and I'm also a screenwriter.
And everything's multi hypen it.
Yeah, everything is multi hyphen it. And I feel like there is much more flexibility around labels, but also more emphasis on how you identify yourself. And it's this weird paradox.
That's so interesting.
Yeah, I wonder if it's I mean, it would be hard for you to answer if it's harder or easier, you know, to lean into your identity as a crutch or to sort of unburden yourself from having to be any label. But then you also don't have the support of what it means to be part of that group of other people who are Bearista's, you know or what.
Yeah, well, it's interesting. It's so interesting that you bring up identity, because obviously this is a huge theme, especially later in this episode, especially as a queer woman thinking about identity. Now, I'm just jumping completely from what you do or if you're a mom or not, like what it?
How do we identify? I was having a conversation with my girlfriend earlier this week, and we were talking about I was writing in a coffee shop and I overheard these two young girls I I think they were It seemed like they were seniors in high school or they just graduated, and they were getting ready to go to college. And one of them was talking about this girl that she was dating and if they were going to stay
together when she went to college. And the other girl was talking about how she kind of had a crush on this non binary person and she said, oh, I don't know if they want to kiss me or if I want And I was just it doesn't really matter what they were talking about. But I was listening to them talk because I was really I'm such an eavesdropper. I am a note or don't say coffee shops. I don't say anything next to me in a coffee shop because I am listening to you and I'm remembering it too.
I'm like too, so, yeah, beware everyone on the east side.
But you're saying it doesn't matter, Well, it.
Was just I was really struck by the fluidity with which they talked about who they were seeing, how they identified what they saw for their futures. And you know, there, I don't know, maybe twelve fifteen years younger than me, and I thought, oh my gosh, I did not grow up in high school with this level of fluidity around identity.
And I was so struck by these girls who weren't that much younger than me, maybe they were only ten years younger than me, having just such ease with the way they moved between the way that they labeled themselves and what they so offfer their futures and what they suffer other people around them, And yeah, it was it was very moving.
Well, I mean, the bringing up labels, it also brings up judgment, you know, And so it's one thing to have your own sense of self and purpose and you know, acceptance,
you know. But but we live in a world and in this show, they live on a street and in a neighborhood where there's a lot of judging going on, and you know, starting off with Lynette thinking that she's going to have possibly a good day until she gets the phone call and you know her her children are so badly behaved that she's offered the idea that they need medication or they're going to get kicked out of the school. Yeah, that's that's that's huge. And this happens
to people like I was trying to think. This did not happen to me. I you know, as you can see, I sort of have the perfect daughter.
Oh thank you so much. I was so well behaved. I never got kicked out of a classroom. It's I was an only child and I sat at the adult's dinner table a lot growing up, and so I think, I, yeah, everything was interior. I just had a very interior life. I think that's probably why I'm a writer now. Yeah, I feel like, yeah, that's true.
But listen, I mean you're talking about how your identity was formed.
It's it's so interesting.
I I when I was driving over here today, I was thinking a lot about identity and like, how do I identify and how is my identity formed? And all these things right, and Desperate Housewise plays a big role in it, right, because I had been an actor for a long time by the time I started the show, but arguably this was the most successful, you know, on
a grand scale thing that I had done. And and and I think when you're a performer as a child, your identity is really kind of told to you by not only the roles you book, but also you're kind of praised for. You get verbal affirmations for the things that people like about you, and then you adopt them as like, Okay, that's who I am, right, And so being a good little adult as a kid when you're
in the industry is really valuable. I happen to kind of like be predisposed to be somebody who is a perfectionist and cared about showing up prepared and wanting to do things well. But you know, I was also awarded for that behavior, right, And so I always was. I was always told like my whole adolescence and Julie's kind of like this too, like, oh, you're so mature for
your age or whatever. Right, we're so related, And so when you grow up, what happens to the identity of your mature for your age as a thirty five year old woman.
Right.
No one's telling me now that I'm mature for my age, right right? I mean that would be weird. And at this point, you know, yeah.
It's so interesting.
Yeah, but it was such a theme throughout me who I am.
Do you know what came your mind for me? No? But I would say, and I tell her this all the time. Okay, this is the this is memportant. Just that when I was younger, when I was forty, when I was thirty forty, I was on the cover of magazines. People told me all the time I was beautiful. That was part of my identity. No one tells me that anymore.
Well, we'll tell you right now.
I'm just saying. So it is a transition like going from the daily mom into the empty nester. And people think that the state of their being is going to last forever. Yeah, and and it isn't. And so you really need to be present and really enjoy what gifts you're given.
I think about that with Lynette's character, you know, did she really feel present and enjoy when she was working sixty hour weeks.
She's so wistful for it now because now she's so wistful.
I'm curious, Andrew, So, how did you or have you worked to redefine yourself as not well, such a mature young adult.
Yeah.
I'm just a really mature, put together thirty five years old, I know, but I think I've released a lot of that. I don't have that as like the moniker I wear when I walk into a room anymore, but I will say that something is kind of beautiful and sweet?
Is that?
My mom over the past couple of years has said to me, you know, when the occasion arises or like on my birthday, that she sees she's watching me get younger as I get older, And I think that's really cool.
Yeah.
Is that because now that you don't feel the burden of being like a perfect young actress who does everything right, you know that you can actually be more playful and get things wrong.
I think so.
I think that even though I wasn't necessarily beholden to it at the time, in a way I was aware of. I think that it served me. I liked it. I really like being prepared. I like to do things.
You know.
In my mind, it's like I want to be perfect at something I've never done, which is impossible, right, But it's that like control thing, and I've definitely relinquished some of that over the last few years, and I think it's it's very freeing and yes, allows me to be messier and more playful and all the things, and so well.
That's one of the things I do love about aging, Like I don't care that nobody says I'm beautiful anymore. Like I I'm so freed of all that stuff, Like I I love that.
I love that. I mean, obviously, I am the youngest one out of the three of us, but I I've actually I've said this before. I feel like when I because I also was really praised for being such a mature young adult, praised you for thank you, no but but for but for being mature and intellectual for my age.
And I feel like I always had this kind of very concrete idea of what path I was going to be on and when I was going to achieve things by a certain age, and put a lot of pressure on myself because I too, am so type a you know, straight a student likes to know how to do everything, even if I've never done it before, and I feel like,
I don't know, you know, the concurrent events. I feel like when I turned twenty six, when I was like over the hump of in my mid twenties or you know, late mid twenties, and also I really kind of in a more public way to my friends and family came out,
I felt this complete redefinition of my age. And I have to say every year since then, I have felt younger and younger, and I have felt, yeah, just like this, it's so arbitrary, these rules that we put on ourselves, and to just feel also maybe more confidence in my identity, but also in my work and my voice.
And your value outside of it, and my perfect exactly exactly.
Neither of you ever did anything wrong at school. You never painted anybody.
Blue or it's a great sejuct, but did.
I'm sure neither of you had medications either, But but how do you feel? This was another daring, bold boundary break. Early was to bring in in two thousand and four a character who was considering is it adderall or.
Yeah, I'm medication but yeah.
But for eightyd, I know it was kind of the beginning of more and more of your fellow students. I feel like there were some kids at schools that I was aware of that were maybe starting to do things like that, but I felt like on television it was sort of the first character that really was getting this question.
Yeah. I mean, you know, you feel for Lynette so much because I thought, it's such a thing right, Or you're trying to be such a good mom and you're trying to do right by your children, and you just don't know what right is Is it right to, you know, give them the opportunity to silence these thoughts or to dull whatever is making their antics act and then maybe they're limited in school because of those things, or is it right to let them be who they are and
see what happens if they don't interfere, you know? And also if the thought isn't coming from you, but it's coming from the school, it's coming from someone else, how do you take that? If not feeling very judged or criticized, or like being told you're not doing your job and her job is such a thing right because she's like, oh, I was so successful at the job that I did
before I was a mother. I was praised for how good I was at it, and now I've given that identity up to be this, and now I'm told I'm not doing it well.
It is interesting when you're in control of a situation like Lynette was at work. You know, when she had it her way, that she could excel at it. And as soon as you add a variable where you don't have the predictability, you don't have the control. I mean it is she's really questioning if she can even make the right decision. I feel a lot of empathy for her. Al I feel a.
Lot of empathy for her too, and I really feel like there is not a right choice. I think I bumped up against a little bit in this episode. I kind of felt like the writing around her character portrayed her choice to ultimately not medicate them as the noble one, like the right choice. Oh, She's going to embrace the
chaos and let them be who they are. And I think, especially because attention deficit disorder wasn't something that was talked about a lot at the time, I found it maybe understandable but also potentially problematic choice to paint the choice of using medication for people who have ADD or ADHD as a cop out or as a negative.
And you think that's how somebody might see it now, who's viewing it now?
Because I was watching it and I kind of felt like there was a level of moral high grounds that Lynette took when she said, I'm not going to give this to you guys.
Well, it's interesting just the way you were describing it like that, weighing out what is right. I never really thought about it that if you did give the child the medication and they were able to sort of quiet some of the noise, they might have the potential to have more opportunity in school or wherever that they wouldn't get if they didn't have.
I mean, I thought you talking about that this with parenting, not in terms of taking medication or not, but in terms of when you see like a very very young kid at a fancy restaurant and the kid is acting out or crying or running around and kind of like disturbing the restaurant for other people. Something that you've said before to me, mom, is that's so unfortunate that the parents put their kid in a situation that they weren't set up for success.
I was a big one on that that that I felt like I always took my parenting responsibility as part of that was to not put Emerson in situations where she wasn't ready to succeed, not that you have to be not. In fact, I made you keep jumping. I would not let you give up on jumping rope when that was frustrate.
Oh my god, I was so bad at jump I was I do it?
I I was like a five or six year old or something.
Yeah.
I remember distinctly standing in the hallway with my jump rope trying to practice jumping rope, and I would trip every single step and I cried. I was fully melt down. I could not do it.
And you wanted to give up, and I wouldn't let you. Yeah, but that's my point. So it's felt like I made everything easy. But I do think being aware of what you're asking, Like I think the restaurant's a good example. Don't ask your three year old to come to like a fancy dinner course dinner and sit there. It's just you're you're setting them up to fail, and that's not good.
So yeah, and so this idea that maybe you know you need to maybe there are tools that set your kid up to succeed that are kind of being ignored potentially.
Yeah, and she Lynette has that one line that I thought was so it just really tugged at my heart where she's holding the mug and she's talking about you know, and at first I didn't realize that the mug was going to be a point of anything in the scene. I thought it was just a prop and I thought, oh God, the prop department is so good because I
get that perfectly childhood, you know, child made mug. But anyway, when she says, I'm afraid if I change the bad stuff, I'm going to change the good stuff, and I thought that was a really nice line. And I feel like we all feel versions of that, like if if we correct this thing, is it going to how is it going to impact the other things? Like maybe I don't interfere, maybe I don't intervene and try to control it.
Sounds like we had a lot of empathy.
Yeah, yeah, so we had.
In the last episode we had Gabby getting blackmailed, and now in this episode we have Susan getting blackmail. I mean, I just is that is that the go to drama blackmailed? The next Who's getting black.
Male is running rampant?
Okay? Yes? And also just to you know, it's not just a soap opera where everyone's getting blackmailed. I think there's a really interesting layer underneath the blackmail of these women, these housewives, especially missus Hubert. I God, I have such a love hate relationship with her mainship in this episode. Yeah, but they are looking for ways to have control in their lives, and turns out blackmail is a way to have control.
Low hanging right apparently.
Yeah, And oh god, I feel for Susan in the grocery store when Miss Hoover comes up and then she she says no to Mike to go see the Hitchcock movie and then she pays for her groceries and stand up for yourselves.
And there's that moment between us between Susan and Julie in the kitchen where you had come clean, you know, you wake Julie up and you tell her I think I'm being blackmailed, and then we go down. And I
thought it was so. I thought it was kind of a nice thing because so often our dynamic is like Julie tries to be the voice of reason, right, like that's something that that's maybe her way she identifies and uh, and you actually, Susan, to her credit, it wants to do the right thing by going to the cops, and Julie is the one who's.
Like, well, this is interesting. I'm gonna just sigde tangential to this relationship. I mean, not necessarily just from this episode, because this is another way that I was a different mom. So people always think that I can't cook because Susan can't cook, And people think that I'm a klutz because Susan fell down, and I'm a dancer. So there's a lot of differ and I always met I was the only breadwinner. Nobody ever bought, you know, like paid for
my way or whatever. Anyways, lots of different things, but one of the things here that I had to accept that I thought was charming in the context of Desperate Housewives and the Julie Susan relationship that I would never do because of my relationship with my own mother, is I have been overly cautious to not put you taking care of me. You Emerson. I'm pointing at Emerson to our life, like, because I feel like my mother needed a lot of emotional.
Care from me too much.
She needed me to fulfill something that she couldn't fulfill herself. And I think that is a really regrettable, not great thing to do to your child if you cannot do it. And I do feel like Susan leaned on Julie way too much, yea. And that was a quality about her that I didn't love as as the mother that I am. But I loved it in the television show and I loved it in the dynamo dynamic of how a character has to grow and what the relationship.
With it was.
But if you were if we went around and we were like, what did Susan, Gabby, Bree, and Lynette do wrong? As mothers would put on this Susan list would be treated Julie like an equal as I can or as a friend way too much. Yeah, what do you guys think?
Yeah?
I think that's a fair assessment. I also think I understand from a your standpoint, it's a very charming dynamic. Like you said, like I watch it now and I think, oh, they're so sweet, Like they're so cute, and they're you know, like committing crimes together and they're you know, and it's sweet. It's sweet and charming and ridiculous. It's not how I would say suggest someone use it as a how to
parent Handbook. But I think you know, and it's interesting because you were a real life single mom at the same time and who was doing things very very differently. So yeah, but I I do think by your are Susan's arc in this episode. Something I thought was so great is again the payoff, you know, when you do find your backbone and you stand up to Martha Huber.
It's just it's so satisfied.
Okay, But we kind of back up to how we get there in the first place, which is because I know you said you had something to say about what I've made here for Oh.
My gosh, Oh my gosh. Well there's there's so many things to say, but we're staying with Missus Hooper's blackmail when she shows up at Susan's house with the mince meat comment I wrote in my notes also again in all caps. Okay, Missus Hooper is all caps off the rails in this scene exclamation point no, because she is. I mean, she's she comes in and she's saying, mince meat, Lady, I'm gonna make mince meat. That's what she's actually saying.
I'm gonna make mince meat out of you. I'm gonna, yes, that was an expression, and I just I have to say I felt like the tone of the show shifted into a different place for a moment in that scene because I and this is totally not a slight at the actor playing Missus Huber, but I feel like there is a level of even though the circumstances are very heightened, there's a level of the way most of the women are playing their scenes with each other that feels very
grounded in the reality of how we speak and what is conversational. And Missus Hooper comes into Susan's house and it's like a portal's been opened into this other world where like the witch from next Door into the Woods comes in and is talking about mince meat in this over articulation, and it just it was fascinating.
But across the tone for you a little no.
I mean it did I bumped up against I love it, go off, go off, tell me, Because I.
Think every neighborhood in this kind of perfect world right has a crazy, zany neighbor, you know, like Missus Huber, and I think that we kind of established that in the pilot right where she clearly and she's she takes the nosy neighbor role to the nth degree, right, And yes it is very heightened, and yes it's very campy. I happen to love camp I love I'm here for But.
Yeah, when you look at any I mean, I'm trying to think of a comedy that's on television right now that that rides this line.
It.
It is something I was always aware of and and sometimes I feel like the writing supported uh me, and sometimes I felt like it fell short. And I mean for Susan's character, at least up till now four episodes in, I'm not seeing that, but I definitely recall in later seasons, you know, feeling like Susan wouldn't say this, This is right, like that kind of comedy is is to me, it's the best, but it's also like a tight rope. It's the hardest, and it's the hardest. It's the hardest to write.
Always had to responding to act.
You're responding so authentically. I would say, in the heightened scenario of that you.
Open your mouth that she's feeding.
I know, it's okay.
Can we just talk about what I The beautiful thing I have here, first of all, mince meat is do you guys know what a mince meat. Okay, so mince meat typically was a traditional meat pie. Like it's like if you think about we went to Cornwall last year, if you think about like the Cornish Pasti's or whatever. It's a way to incorporate meat into a pie, like
so that you're getting a meal in one thing. And so when you make I have made for you a fruit mince meat, which is what which is what missus Whober claimed to make.
That's what she said. I'm going to be real not I know it was dark.
This mince meat pie is three different kinds of apples. One of the apples brands are not brand what do you call it?
A apple?
I have the apple varieties is called the Envy apple.
And I was like, well, I have to use that. I have to say the apples are I've been getting them in the grocery store to like the best kind.
Yeah, so this is honey crisp, green apple, and Envy apples. They are I think they are chopped uniformly in the same size that you would have a piece of steak. So that is what you're trying to mimic. If you're doing im Wow, it's got a lot of warm seasoning, cinnamon, nutmeg, allspice. There's orange zest, there's ginger zest, and there's some raisins, which I went light on the raisins because I know, God bless you, we always have the argument over carrot cake of like raisin snow raisins.
Caras.
So anyways, it's delicious and I think it will be delicious anyways, so I made it. I put a little heart on there just because I love you, guys.
And now we're just going to get to stare at that we're talking about this.
But that scene was is a crazy scene and definitely set up I think Susan feeling like she was getting mincemeat made of her, yeah, as she kept putting up with this woman until she finally conquers her.
I do have to say, though, I mean, obviously this is being used as a blackmail intimidation tactic, which we see a lot of different versions of intimidation tactics in this episode. But I did think missus Hooper's phrasing of saying, you know, I really want to help you. I didn't help you enough when Carl left you, and now I want to help you. Get Mike on your side and
go out with Mike. It actually made me think about something I studied in a social psychology class at Brown, which was this really interesting study that I think about a lot that talked about people actually like you more after you ask them to do something for you.
Ah.
Yes, the psychology of that. That the idea of feeling which I think plays back into this question of IDENTI and labels. The idea of feeling needed.
People buy someone, Yeah, makes them like I told her about relationships growing up. Now we're just gonna this is now, this is atitary, mother Emerson.
How did you do it? No?
But this was another thing I said, is that don't a lot of women these days, I think, go around thinking independence is everything, Like, you know, I'm going to do it myself. You know I can do it myself. And what I would offer her, the idea of is, you know, let your partner do something for you.
People like to feel needed.
You know.
It makes me think of Brion Rex and how she says, you know, in college we were the perfect couple and everyone wanted to be us, and what happened And he says, you won't even let me, You can't even let me pack my own suitcase.
Yeah, yeah, that that dynamic has gotten really off for them. I still think that line stuck out to me Again, I think I said this before, which is I'm still having a hard time understanding where Bree came from. I'm having an art she when she said that line as the actress. I mean, I thought it was a lovely performance. I believed, you know her her pain in saying like when we were in college, you know, everybody thought we'd be great, Like what has happened to us? I totally
believed that, but the the text of it didn't. I just I'm still not can't take sure all the.
Questions what has happened?
Right?
We want to know what did happen?
I don't.
And sticking with the Breeze story, a little arc in this episode with with Andrew and Danielle her children and obviously how he is. Andrew is angry. He's angry that Rex has left. He's angry at Bree theoretically for driving
their dad away. And you know, it made me think how often it is that, you know, the woman in the situation is blamed maybe quicker than the man, right, and uh, then it leads obviously to the hilarity of him as going off to the trip club and then free perfect bree in her you know, buttoned up shirt sitting next to him and ruining his night and ruining the guy next to them.
Tonight, I got that speach that that character makes about who's that girl? And she's got a mother?
And then well the guy to lean over at the end to go, you gotta get her out of here.
She kill all of us.
I know, I know it was it so funny, but honestly, we've come a long way with conversations around sex work.
I think since this episode.
Well, I was going to say, have either of you ever been to a strip club? What are your thoughts?
All a great strip club story?
Actually?
Please, I wasn't planning. I mean I didn't even think about it, But now that you just prompted this, I did.
Okay.
So there's a strip club in Los Angeles, and uh, just one, just one, No.
There's many. This one happens to be called the Body Show by the Airport.
It's the one on Sunset anyway, And I never it wasn't like my thing.
I was not.
I mean, no one's surprised, but I was not like a big goer outer as a as an adolescent.
You were so much for your age.
But when I was in my twenties, we went out and the night ended at the strip club. And it was me and my girlfriends, right, and we were there and there was a stripper who was obviously in a state of undress, and she did her thing, and then she hopped off and she came over to me and she told me that she was a fan of Desperate Housewives and she was naked and she was a fan of Desperate Housewives. And this is where it gets really good. Okay,
that this isn't her only job. She's also a stylist and if I'm ever in need of clothes, clothing or styling for an event, to give her a call, and that she was going to give me her card. And I thought it was so funny because she was standing there in front of me naked, and I was.
Like, well, I can't judge how you'd style me, but you know that's pretty good.
God.
Yeah, okay, that's her true story.
Labels everyone having multiple labels and that they carry with us all the time and multiple jobs. I love that.
Ye yeah, I love that. I have been into a strip club. I mean I was a couple of times. I think I went to a strip club in Vegas a long time ago, and I went to a strip club in New Orleans. When I was doing the movie Heaven's Prisoners, I wanted to kind of actually research, so that was kind of a more of a research stripper. No, but I played a person who was involved with strippers in that sort of life, and so I kind of
wanted to see what that was like. And then I did stripping on on Desperate Housewise.
Stay tuned for that stage.
I remember that and yeah, that's much later, but that happens. And then, uh, I used to take stripping class for exercise, like part of the S factor. I was part of the Oprah. I was on Oprah showing Oprah how to do.
A poll.
I also did it on Jay Leno, not the man the show we want to pull m not on himself anyways. So I, you know, I tend to imbue this with like I want to empower these women. You know. I the painting that Brie was painting that this is so bad and her mom must be disappointed, and you know, because.
A humiliating thing.
Whatever. I resist that as a as a modern day story. Now I wouldn't want to project that. I mean, that might be the truth for sure, but I wouldn't want to project that. I still am in the lane of like hoping that women are doing what they're doing because they want to be doing it.
Yeah, and they feel empowered that. I agree. And the truth is, so many women with so many jobs, you know, walk around carrying various forms of trauma and childhood trauma and some of the experiences that Bree talks about in that speech, many many women have and it does not result in choosing a particular line of work. It feels like a very misplaced Yeah, but it makes sense.
For it makes sense for the character, It makes total sense for her, and and comedically it was great. And and then she says later in the episode, well, if you think that, you know, I feel bad about pulling you out of a strip club like that. I consider that one of my greatest moments. Yeah, I was going to say, we've got Carlos, Yeah, We've got more Carlos.
I mean, I want to start in the bathtub with the rubber ducky because I feel like that's going to be the same comment as the algebra class.
And yeah, I don't know, he might do that I haven't seen that far.
Yeah, I know.
But when he says I'm usually playing with my rubber ducky and now I have more to play with or whatever.
I mean, I'm on the floor shocked.
But yeah, line, I mean, I hope doubling down on the you've got to be underagee.
Well, they were having fun in the right, I was. I was. I was watching that scene, and I was thinking, people are riffing with these lines, and they're really enjoying coming up with what they're coming up with. And now I am watching it and I'm horrified, and I'm horrified for Gabby and for John and and ultimately for many more people. As Carlos gets more and more suspicious that Gabby's having an affair.
Of course, Okay, so they're in the tub, and then the doorbell rings, and then John freaks out because he thinks that Carlos is home, and she has the line of like, well.
He wouldn't ring the doorbell, which I thought was funny.
And then and then it's the cable guy, the cable guys, and he's been late, yeah, show up late, yes, yes, And so then you know, John takes off, right, he takes off and forgets a sock, leaves a little sock behind.
Which Gabby so geniusly quick thinking. So I honestly, I was kind of and I just felt like it spoke to something about Gabby's backstory that she immediately thought, like she done this before, I don't know, to take the socks and go put them down by the washing machine and say that that is what the housekeeper uses.
It's because Gabby's as smart as she is beautiful, right, she says, all the tools, right, I mean, I'm going to figure.
Out not a split second waisted, how to.
Do with this sock, like I'm going to solve this problem instantly.
Yeah, I mean, it's really it's impressive, you know what.
It's a character trait though that that I think comes from having to protect yourself.
I was about to say it speaks to a survival instincts.
So it must. I don't remember if we ever get to a backstory about that character, but it says to me that that was a character who who survives.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they and and that's why they developed all that quick on their feet yeah behavior.
Oh gosh, and then and then well then quick on their.
To put on a sock as she's dusting the banister.
It kind of made me want to try it. I was like, it sort of seems like a good idea. You could just spray the banister and then just have it and then your rather than having to hold a rag, you could just like, I think we.
All have socks that we don't use any Well.
There's always back to the laundry, Back to the laundry, there's the one rogue sock.
And now we have a right that's when you're one rogue sock, make it a dust rag.
But then Carlos ends up committing hate crime.
Well, yes, okay, so because the cable guy slips and the paramedics have to come because he hits his head really bad, and Carlos is suspicious about why was he there so late? And he asks John, who obviously trying to cover his own tracks.
Quick on his feet, he's just barely out of algebra, and.
Yeah, he kind of bumbles that response, but at least he's in birkenstocks at that point, staging.
Well, I mean they're really.
Back, I know, just walk them into silver Lake. And then and then Carlos, I know we talked about this last time we talked about episode three h Carlos kind of feeling increasingly scary and intimidating and kind of domineering, and then he actually goes and assaults someone. And I have I have so many thoughts about this scene.
Tell us.
I mean, you know, it's funny. I was talking to my girlfriend about this scene because I said, because she actually watched Desperate Housewives with her mom. She was a kid, I mean, not quite as young, maybe somewhat retroactively a little bit later, but she remembered this scene and I was describing it and I said, okay, So Carlos shows up at the cable guy's house. He thinks he's going to teach him a lesson, you know, he punches him, and it is I have to say from comedic writing,
it is a very funny beat. He punches the guy. The guy's on the floor, He's like, why are you doing this? And Carlos scared the apartment and he sees a gypsy God bless Mark Cherry. He sees a gypsy poster on the wall, and then he sees a picture of the cable guy and his partner who is a man, and he goes, you're gay with a question mark because he's surprised, and the guy goes, is that why you're
doing this? And Carlos goes, uh, yes, and then leaves yeah, And then it immediately becomes a story that we see on the news of this hate crime committed against a gay rights activist. The cableman turns out to be who was advocating for the same rights, which I found incredibly interesting.
He's a gay rights activist who's currently working on making sure same sex couples have the same rights as married people in general, well in general, I thought it was same sex partners being recognized as having the same rights in their partnership, which at the time, gay marriage was not legalized, right, so it didn't happen, so you had to really work to find other loopholes to have your partnership, you know, the ability to visit in a hospital, the
ability to have things that married couples have.
A way a tiny two line exchange of a scene, another groundbreaking ahead of its time moment. Yeah, not to interest you, no, and.
Really commenting on the state of the queer community at that time that this was made. And I think the reason that it's interesting we're watching it right now, but that this episode sat so much with me is with our current administration talking about repealing the right to gay marriage right now, which has obviously been a right since two thousand and eight. And my mom and I were just talking about this. She sent me a TikTok at
like eleven thirty at night. Cool when all of the best all of the best ideas come from TikTok, And she said, actually, I mean, it does make me really sad, but she said, you know, you might want to file this away. This is a gay rights lawyer talking about
the nine documents. You need to have your partner so you can still my god, I'm gonna be emotional, so you can still have your partnership recognized if they repeel the right to gay marriage, which my girlfriend and I are not married, but obviously you know, we're in a serious partnership and that's the things that we're talking about. Yeah. Sorry,
I'm emotional. But it was really interesting to see this come up in such a convenient beat that I appreciated, But that really kind of cut to the quick of our current political times right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And amazing that the Carlos character cared less about his abusiveness right. I mean, cares really out, cared less about being a hate crime than he did about his abusiveness.
Talk about the labels. He was like, I'm fine with being like, right.
With being a hate crime, but you know, not not someone who would be cheated, who would be cheated.
On an emasculated husband. Yeah, God forbid God.
I mean, yeah, that's exactly what it is.
That's what I was trying to say. You did it better because I kind.
Of no, no, no, that's right though. You're saying that he would rather be labeled as someone who would commit a hate crime against a gay person than he would be an emasculated husband.
Yeah, And I think that's why when we get to the end of this episode, between this and the last episode where he responding to what the famous ejaculation line, you know, he says, Man, if my woman said anything like that, that'd be the last time, you know.
She would only say that one.
You know, Like, we've gotten now to this episode where I just feel like and we we're just really sitting with this very heavy, dominating character. And again maybe it's because I know we'recarded, like we got to get well because over the years, like he and I have had dinner. We had dinner at Kids Met a couple of years ago. He's actually doing a play right now in Minnesota that
I might go see. It's about to open, and like, so we keep in touch, and I think of him as this, like he's a dad, he builds stuff in his house.
He's a very sweet guy.
Yeah, and obviously I can cook Susan can't cook, like like he doesn't have to. But it is interesting I do not have the recollection of that character being this intent.
I know what is that.
It's like our minds kind of corrected him in our heads. I think because maybe we love Ricardo and.
Or maybe because you weren't in those scenes with him.
I mean maybe that's or also just because I'm looking at it not as you know, a child anymore. But I'm thinking about this idea of like taking stepping crossing the line too far, just in general, like obviously he crossed a line way too far by showing up at that man's house and abusing him.
Right.
I have noticed that I inherently am on the women's side almost all the time, like in their independent storylines, like if it's them against you know, if it's Lynette against the teacher, or it's you know, Gabby against Carlos, or if it's pre against Rex, Like, I'm having to really think about the perspective of the other character because I'm inherently on our hero's side, right, even when they're doing something very wrong. I think that's really smart writing.
And it also just shows like because we're kind of supposed to be rooting for them. But I was a little appalled about them all sitting around listening to Mary Alice's therapy tapes, and I wanted to know what you guys thought about that invasion of someone's privacy, especially after they've since passed and they're sitting there kind of trying to find out information that she never readily shared with them, and that she only shared with in the confines of a therapist's office, And that is to.
Know, what do you think of that?
I didn't really snag on it, but now that you're bringing it up, it is kind of like, I mean, I guess I must have made an excuse for it in that maybe they're just trying to.
Solve the issue, but you're right, it is very.
Wrong, and none of them really put do I don't remember did any of them push back and be like, we shouldn't be listening to this.
Was that no, I think, I mean Gabby says like, oh, it's weird hearing mary Alice's race. But I don't think any one of them raises an issue necessarily.
Interesting this idea.
If someone did, it would be Lynette. I think Lynette would go, I can't believe you got this out of the therapist, right. That sounds like something she could have said, Yeah.
Well obviously, Yeah, there's the stealing from the therapist office, and then there's the listening to it. And I feel like there is something interesting about when does the line?
You know?
I bet they would feel more morally outraged about listening to it while Mary Alice was alive and then they had to see her and hold on to the secret that they knew her personal information. Then they do feel listening to it now that she's dead, right and they're
trying to solve something. And I do think there is some I mean, come and correct me on this, because I am no lawyer, but I feel like in certain cases therapists can be subpoena to have to give up notes or recordings, you know, if someone commits a homicide or something you know, like in certain mysteries.
I don't think not by banda camp, no, but.
Certainly not by people stealing the tape out of their office.
I think you're right.
I think there there might be certain occasions when it's when it's permitted legally.
Yea.
But I also fascinated.
By the recurring nightmare thing, like I, you know, that's what she's saying on the tape, and that her name's Angela, which I've forgot.
Or by the way, yeah I've forgot.
I've never seen it.
Excited to know what that means later, and I feel.
Like you win because you've never seen it, Like we just do a lot of we forgotten.
Yeah, we forgot.
Fall new to me because it is.
Yeah, But also it made me think about recurring nightmares in general, like do you have you guys had recurring nightmares? I certainly have had some weird recurring nightmare since I was little. Some involved cockroaches, which is just probably because I grew up in Manhattan. I have another one about being tied to train tracks.
Oh my god.
Yeah, and I always wake up before the train gets too close. But I feel the wind on my face and I see that like lights of the train and that's how I wake up. And I've had that dream more than once.
Wow, have you looked into what that means?
No, because I'm terrified of knowing. Okay, crazy that makes.
Me not about recurring nightmares. But I thought you were going to say, because I feel like we have to touch on it, when you talked about crossing a moral line, I thought you were going to talk about yourself crawling through the doggy door to steal back the measuring.
Corh gosh, that is so funny.
I love that scene, and I will say so, I actually do remember filming that scene, and the reason being I have terrible hand eye coordination and I was really nervous to have to toss the frisbee back and forth with you in front of our crew because I knew that I was going to drop it a lot and I knew it was going to be bad. And anyway, I'm sure I did, and they edited it. Well, you look like an extras You're good YEA like through my golf? Really yeah, wow, I didn't get that.
From frisbee golf.
It's like you throwing the frisbee like to get it to a flag, you know, to get it like the same my silf.
She explains this to me, like, are you even my daughter? You don't know what frisbee golf? But we did play frisbee at the beach. I know, I'm not intimidated.
Well, I am intimidated by frisbee and little Andrea was.
And anyway, can we.
Talk about how great Nicolette was in that scene? Oh my god, yeah, yeah, I I so.
It, And how upsetting and heartbreaking Susan is. I was yelling, like, stop.
Giving your data, I know, but Nicolette in that scene, it is so good when she she has that moment where she does the hand gesture after it's like one too many, when she basically is saying to Susan, you know, I don't stop throwing it in my face, and then it just keeps happening, and she like turns to walk away and she puts her hand out and it's so funny.
No, she's really really, really good in it, and it kind of brought up I remember just that like it was it was an interesting thing about how some people used to feel like it was four housewives or it was five housewives. I remember that, and I remember really on early on being like it's five housewives, you guys, it has to be five. She has to be included,
you know. I think there's even a USA article, like a USA Today article where I said that really like yeah, I was one of the first women to actually say it, like, you know, she's so good. Yeah, she totally is. And it's just it rounded out that Nope, the way you were talking about Missus Hooper sort of like pushing that that that line a little bit, that tone. I feel like the Eaedy character also does that. I mean the classic like car washing, she's putting anybody.
There's two lines from that storyline that I just loved. One of them happens to be mine, So I'll just give myself back on the butt.
You better get over there. She's wearing cotton.
Yeah, that's a great line. I think that's more the writing than the way I delivered it. But I did love that. And then Nick let this is the way she delivered it and the writing. But when she says every time, I hate Susan Mayer another count for the mispronounciation of our name. Right, yeah, we did, we need a button. But when she comes in and she says I hate Susan every time, I see those big dough eyes of hers, I swear to god, I just want to go out and shoot a deer.
Yeah, it was so good. The line is so good, but the way she delivered her so good too, because because you thought it was going to be. Because every time I see those big dough eyes, I want to punch her in the face. I want to slap her across the cheek. I want You're just sure that that's what it's going to be, and it's shooted deer and of the greatest punchline. It's like great, it was so there dynamic.
We get to see that friendship again, which we talked about I think last week or maybe the week episode before, but about the weird Missus Hooper kind of strength.
They're like the two the two kind of ostracized people that like find each other because there's nobody else. But you know, they they're sort of like the the almost like the third wheel, but it's it's a it's a it's a seventh and an eighth wheel or whatever. Yeah, I mean, they're they're.
Well I find it so interesting because they say and and Edie says this a lot in that scene. She's like, you're throwing yourself at Mike. But she's literally standing washing her car, dumping soapy water all over her in tiny little shorts. And I find it so funny that Susan is the one who kind of gets creamed for throwing herself at him. But I question to the group, are you a hard to get or a beg to love kind of person? Oh?
So Susan's begged to love and the edy is hard to get.
I think they're both begging for love, but they seem to be throwing stones at each other saying well more, Edie throwing stones at Susan saying you're begging him to love you. What personally do you feel like you take a position of to get?
Baby? Oh?
Yeah, you guys?
Are you guys hard to get?
Yeah?
I mean I I think so. I think I think I keep a level of miss mystery, at least initially.
Yeah.
Yeah, I.
Would pride myself on it. I mean to a bad degree. You know, like I so hard to get.
I never got got.
Anyone, Yeah, because it was too hard.
No, but from your belly you got gott.
But I will say it wasn't until I kind of dropped that, you know, to to it wasn't until I dropped the idea that you know, having power meant something more than it should you know that. Then Look, it's like anything, right, Vulnerability is really where everything connects, Where true connection links is being vulnerable.
And so.
Like these five women, Like that's what I was saying. I really do think the Edi character rounds it out because you know she I don't, you know, I guess so Gabby and Edie both don't have children, but Edie's not married or is divorced, and and and then Susan and Lynette and Brie have children, but Susan has a failed marriage, and you know, the other two like they all I think you need it. I think you needed the fifth woman.
That label represented.
And I see I see that character as a really great vehicle to express sexuality and confidence. And because I don't see that and any I mean, even Gabby is obviously beautiful and sexual, but it still seems connected to a man sort of. And I feel like Edie's power just feels almost just grounded in herself. Yeah, totally, which is which is very cool of the character and also of the actress who brought it to I.
Mean, I really think, yeah, there's so much. There's so much Nicolette does with that character that makes it, you know, just makes it so substantial, and like, you know, it wasn't in the last episode, and I felt her absence.
Oh that's inea. Yeah, yeah, that's interest. Well should we dig into this?
Yeah, I've been dying to try this pie, I mean time for pie. We end? So we end this episode? How do we? We end with Paul again the mystery continuing hiring someone because they give him the.
Note, right, because after they listen to the tapes.
They say that we have to give him the note. He's selling his house. He's selling it for such a low price.
You're gonna have to talk about how great this crust is.
Go ahead, Oh, she's got a great crust. Ladies and gentlemen, Oh my god. And yes, we end with him hiring a private detective of some sort to try to decipher the note, which I just had this thinking suspicion and don't tell me as you know, okay, that he knows what the note is. I don't think he's surprised by the note. And I feel like Lynette says this as well, but that's just you know, that's for me to see as the show reveals itself.
Yeah, but it does. It does reveal the fact that he doesn't he you know, he says that Mary Alice sent it to herself, and by hiring someone, we're clearly getting insight that she did not, Yes, which I think we knew, but now we as an audience get to see, well, who the heck did?
Then?
Yeah, who the heck did?
Yeah, Christine Esterbrook, we eat this in your honor?
Okay, oh did you put booze?
And this is very boosy.
It's a little rum, not a little rum. And it's cooked, baby cooked, It's totally cooked. There's also really good vanilla.
Is there clove?
Oh?
Wow?
Right? It is? Holiday is right?
I know it's making me.
Ready for I'm desperately devoted to this mince meat.
Which is a thing you thought you would never say, really something.
I got to bring that expression back single handedly with our podcast.
I'm going to make.
And make mince meat out of someone this way, not really make mince meat for someone.
But yes, okay.
So, as always, we are desperately devoted to you and everything that you want to know about about this show or about relationships, lives, and so thank you for.
Joining us again. Thanks for right to us. I want our questions to start coming in. I'm excited to invite the audience. I know me too well until then.
Until then, see you next time.