Desks and Dorks| Intro to Games

Hello, and welcome back to Desks and Dorks, your favorite game design podcast. I don't know if it's ever once been brought by you, but maybe this time will be the first time. I am the best DM Graham games. I use heat and they pronouns, and I am joined by I'm Kyle Lott and apparently I'm on the back of a milk carton. Yeah. Yeah, you know, if you've been tuning in weekly to Desks and Dorks, I believe Kyle transmitted last last episode from the bottom of a deep hole maybe

a well and I've been looking for him. I've been concerned about Kyle's well being. So for those of you who are not watching this, I went to my front store in Michigan to do a celebrity appearance, which is how they advertised it, and I sent a picture of myself lying next to the signs and Graham just goes, it looks like you're on a missing person's poster. Actually, what I said was, it looks like you're you're lying in

front of your own gravestones, which is honestly just kind of incredible. So when you're watching this on YouTube, I would encourage you, even if you don't watch other stuff on YouTube. To go to YouTube. Just for the first thirty seconds you can see Graham's master photoshop ability has put me onto a milk carton. Yeah, I think. I think the real of the real key is making sure that we've gotten you out of the well and that you are back where you need to be, and then we get you know,

last he can run over and save me. How how was your trip? The trip was awesome. I think one of the best things about it was a I finally get to see my friend's store and his store is massive, Like, the store is huge. It is like a mecca of gaming and it's really great. I joke that I also and can walk into a game store and I can tell if it's good if I go to the bathroom and there's feminine hygiene products for free in the bathroom of a game store. That's

that metric has never failed me before. And I came in and it was like a rack for like free pads and free tamp I'm like, yes, I mean, I don't really want to call you out, but how many women's bathrooms do you walk into? The gender neutral bathrooms? So most teams tours will have like the mix the mixed gender general neutral bathroom, and then they'll have that rack of the feminine hygiene products. I mean, I liked the what you were doing. It started good, Like I always this is

my barama. I'm like, yeah, you're right, that is the gather this information. You know, you really well because most teams played yourself. Most games, for as I've been too, don't have like male female bathrooms anymore or like right, you know what I mean, I haven't been anyone that has that, and I don't have a good brick and mortar where I am anymore. So it's it's a big shame part of the community that I'm

starting to build. I have this new day job, which is essentially mythology LARPing with kids who have may possibly told me they have googled me and are now listening to the episodes. Oh yeah, um, you know I'm gonna you know, watch my language. I'm not even gonna say fuck um because I know the kids are listening except for that one time obviously are you talking about me? M But no, in all seriousness, the store was great. So my friend Ben James, who runs the store, owns the store.

This has been a dream of his for like ninon eight years, um, And so to sort of watch it come to fruition and to be there for events and to be part of his like in store community was super cool. I got to meet his employees and play games with them. I got to draft Magic with like his locals. Like it was just it was a really cool time. We had a signing. The signing went very well as well. We were in play tests for one of the two kickstarters that's coming

up this year through Desks and dorcs. That playtests went gangbusters. U. The people there were like, Okay, I know we work for Ben, and I'm sure Ben could get this from set discount, but like, if you had this today, we would have bought it, which was wonderful to hear. Um. And I was paid the ultimate compliment, So the ultimate

sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice. As why I'm in well, um no, they're they're the three uh these three kids that were there on Friday for the Magic event that they did, and they were talking to me that all kinds of questions, which was adorable because they were like, oh my god, you make games, How do you make games? When did you make games? Where do you publish your games? Is it hard to make games?

And it was. It was great, right, But as somebody who grew up, you know, going to their local game store and like scrounging together like their their pennies basically to buy games. At the end of the night, the three kids would run off and they were whispering about something, and I was like, what are they doing. It turns out the three of them all had gift cards that they had won or that their parents had gotten them, and they didn't have enough money individually to buy a copy of After

the Rain. They pulled their gift cards together to buy a copy that the three of them could share. And as somebody who has done that exact activity with his friends, were like, Okay, we don't have enough money to buy this game. How much do you have? How much do you have? And like that's probably all their game money for the next three months, and for them to spend that on me is the ultimate compliment I think that

I could ever be given as a game designer. And it's a full circle moment for me as well, having grown up and bend that kid and being like wow, holy crap like that, Like I'm like what an honor? Like like again, any nomination is great. But I was like, when when you get those three kids who like live at that game store and that's their life and they cared enough about what you did and what you interested them in to do what they did, it was it was a huge compliment.

So that was a highlight of that. They pulled all their money together to get your game. Yes, yeah, they're gonna be so disappointed. Yeah, probably. Uh did you tell them? Did you tell the children that you were Emmy nominated? Both of us are up for any award and at gen Con, I not DevCon as my kids at Camp Chu, but or keep trying to tell me. They keep trying to call it DevCon. Yeah, actually, uh no, I uh, I don't know. If I talked to them about the Any nomination. Um, we talked a lot about

magic. They talked a lot about Fortnite memes, which is I mean, they're like ten that makes sense, um, And I definitely when they I was like, guys, like, just give me your email on them. I hooked them up with some more PDFs of some other desks and Dirk stuff that they did not ask for. But I was like, I was like, I don't know. It was so touch. I probably shouldn't be giving away my games for free, but I don't know it was worth it.

Yeah, I mean, you know their parents are gonna see that they're getting emails from a strange man in his thirties, and your career is gonna take off. No, you know, no such thing as bad press. You know it's gonna it's gonna be great. You know. Hey, I'm gonna well though, so what are they gonna do? They can't find me, not anymore, I can hear you. That's true. I'm out. I am out of the well now officially, but you have Wi Fi down there. Make sure you get desks and dorks dot org in your local well.

Start it's it's going well, it sure is, it sure is, buddy, h do you want to enjoy the episode and television? That what we're working with today? So uh, As I was brainstorming new things to talk about in terms of the sign, it occurs to me as a writer how much import I place on openings and endings. You need to capture your audience, and oftentimes in games you are doing the double feature of both teaching and

also grabbing the emotional hook. I mean, that's really really important and so I started to think about what we're formative experience for me, What are my favorite opening dungeons, what are my favorite intros and games? And made a nice list so that we could talk about them in terms of why these are so important to us and how it informs the games that we want to make. Yeah, and I picked So there are some board games as I was

reflecting on this list that had really great introductory moments for introductory levels. So for example, if a board game says, hey tried this first scenario and the first scenario is really strong, really arresting, really grabbing, I think

that's super cool. So I picked a couple of board games, and I did pick a couple of video game game, so we got a little got a little mixed media going on. So yeah, I certainly in terms of mixed media, I think about a TV and movies UM that have been influential on storytelling and my storytelling style. UM. And I really tried to think about board games that had I thought good kind of on ramp stuff, but

I really couldn't think of any. But that's because I'm so particular about what I think works in terms of demo and in teaching from the few different board game cafes that I was running. Um, you know, I tried. I tried and tried to think of anything, but I really I nothing really stuck out to me in terms of stuff. So I'm really curious to think of to hear what board games that you you think do stick the landing on that? All right, Yeah, I'm gonna go first. Yeah, I'll

go first. We'll start with one of my board games. This is sort of a guinea at least for me. Um. I love your classic swords and story stuff. Obviously, Gramma is so that you and I have bonded over a lot as our love of shared sword and sorcery, and it was a genre that as a kid I was really unfamiliar with and was introduced too through a phenomenal board game. Those of you who have been longtime fans of

the show will know I love hero Quest as a kid. The introduction to hero Quest, that first introductory mission is it's nothing to write home about in terms of like its narrative interest. Right, It is either classic, you

are in a dungeon, you are fighting, there's an evil wizard. It literally feels like all of the same tropes that have been done to death a bajillion times over, but something that I love and something I think I need a little bit more of now in media, having been a sort of outsynical in the last thing is it does it with so much earnest fervor and so much appreciation for the tropes that it's using that as a little kid, I remember thinking, oh my god, this is the coolest thing in the world.

And then a friend of mine was very generous actually gifted me his original hero Quest set, and so I played it with some of my friends who had never touched it before, and we played the introduction set, the introduction

scenario, and it had the same level of gravitas that I wanted. And I think for me as a designer, one of the things that I always take from that first initial level that I find really interesting is that you don't always have to do something new or fresh or exciting, or it doesn't have

to always be different just for difference's sake. You can impress people if the quality of what you're doing is excellent, and it truly is, and I think if you have a certain level of earnest appreciation for what you're doing, there is not an ounce of cynicism in that opening. There is not an ounce of like nudge nudge, wink wink. It is fantasy tropes for the

sake of fantasy tropes. And I think it instead of like maybe like playing it safe and doing like, oh, these are fantasy tropes, were like riffing on them, It's like no, they just go hog wild with it. And I think that's what makes it such a great opening level for me.

And it worked too, I think as well. If you know your audience for your introduction, and this is the thing with Her Request, right, this was designed to introduce eight to ten year olds to the world of high fantasy, so you don't want to overload them with too much stuff and nuanced, it's okay to just kind of be the base boom fantasy stuff.

And again, having replayed it literally, like I think last year, I replayed the first level of Hero Request in its original form as intended, and it was still as impactful, still as grabbing, and I think ultimately still as entertaining as I wanted it to be. So that's that's one of my picks for some of the best introductions in a board game. I really liked

Your Request. Your Request is a beloved kind of connective game between your you know, burgeon indie scene and what these you know, high fantasy tropes are you talking about. It's from nineteen eighty nine, I want to say. And so this cyticism about their own tropes, they predates a lot of that. There wasn't any winking, there was any nudgeon. I mean, that was the era of we will sequester into the basement and we will play this

game. UM. And that I think is is why it. I I'm not sure the lack of cynicism was an active choice because the idea of being cynical wasn't really like it yet. It wasn't it didn't exist yet. But but I think that's a fabulous lesson. UM. And maybe I'm just thinking about it because I continue to hang out with middle schoolers every single day now.

UM. The power of earnestness UM. I My journey as a as a creative and a designer UM is sort of a a recovering cynic It's the idea of incorrectly equating, um, being pretentious with being intelligent or being exacting and knowing things have their time and place. That the variety of art that exists in the world. World is there for a reason, and not to ran on people's parade for no reason. And the true power of I love this thing and I wanted to exist and not having to worry about being laughed

at or pointed at. So taking something into a very pure form, exploring it, deconstructing it, yes, but presenting it as earnestly as possible, I think is unbelievably powerful. It is. And this was something too, I reflected on when I went to visit you for the last ep like for one of our episodes, Yeah, when you and I were talking about Majesty, and I was thinking about, like how much I genuinely enjoyed Majesty the Fantasy Kingdom sim and having replayed it again, I was like, oh my

God, like this. I like this not because it's trying. It's not trying to reinvent anything. It just takes all of these fantasy tropes into glories in them. And that was that that level of just fantastic earnestness of like the bad guys are bad, the good guys are good. It just I don't know, there's something so refreshing about someone who loves what they do and is passionate about it, and there's so much passion in that weird look game.

So yeah, I think there's a cycle. There's a cycle of presented a simple idea, than complicating it, than making it dark, including anti heroes, and then that becoming tired because it's a trope in and of itself, and then cycling back to the earnestness. And I think that that's ultimately where things get reside you you you fall where you want to in the side. Yeah, correct, Oh yeah that's true, is your Yeah? Yeah? Yeah, So I got four, We got four and four For this

list, I'm sticking mostly to video games. So when I was thinking about these experiences that I had, some of it was what is this opening cut scene? What is it teach you in terms of design? And the other section that I realized between the my top four here that I placed, there is a strong musical component to all of these. So I music is a big part of my life, but also how I love running tables because ultimately

what I'm doing is I'm trying to create an emotional experience. And so these four games that I'm talking about all have this in common is that they're deeply emotional for different reasons. And so this first game I want to talk about is the opening to Hitman to Silent Assassin. That was my favorite hit Man

game. It's on the PS two and PS two into PS three was a time in which, you know, the graphics were getting vastly more complicated, games were taking a lot more time to be made, they were much much more expensive, and the identity crisis was all of a sudden struggling to try and find an adult audience. It wasn't just kids in arcades in the eighties and nineties. They were starting to come of age, and so there was this insecurity back to earnestness, and insecurity about the art form. Oh,

movies are pop culture and as seen as high art. Why can't we be high art? And so a lot of these games were immediately then trying to mimic cinema, and for me, that was at some at some level missing the point because all of a sudden, they were missing what could and couldn't be done as the medium, you know, trying to just like blanket copy all of it. Um. I think that the opening cut scene and the opening levels of Hitman felt so mature to the kind of game that I was

playing, UM, things like your grand theft autos and whatever. Um, it's it's sophomoric satire. But the earnestness of this story, UM, the setting, the incredible music, UM, the story you got and then then being introduced into your first little sandbox, UM was all emotionally connected to who you were. UM In Hitman you're a clone hits um and the current generation of games You're Hitman one, two, and three that are all there being

absolutely exploded in the complexity of their level design. They've really come about into this new renaissance, which is so exciting. But I think that Hitman two

Silent Assassin really nailed it and I cared emotion that was going on. I have a palette of music that I continue to use for all these games, and Hitman two selet Assassin continues to be a high benchmark to me in terms of adult storytelling, strong themes, excellent characterization, and just really selling beat to beat to beat, the intro not feeling there and really placing you into its world. That was both. It hadn't reached peak cartoon. It kind

of became a meme for a while. We're gonna dress up like a chicken and you know I'm going to stand on the round. Yeah, exactly. Hitman two really managed to find it stride in a huge way, and I remember feeling so respected because I hadn't been talked down to that it was it was going for a thing. It wasn't just trying to mimic cinema, but also it felt emotional and connected to what I was curious about at the time.

Yeah, there's a lot of I remember playing hit Man games and checking out even the newer hit Man ones, and I'm still it's not like an intro necessarily, but I'm always really impressed by how they approach the start of

a level because you really are kind of given that sandbox feel. So, I mean it's still a little cartoony now, but I don't know something about being able to approach a problem in any number of different ways, Like I don't play Hitman like nearly not only thing I played Hitman in like he hears. But it's interesting to watch Hitman speed runners play because each way they approach

it. I don't know, when you talk about being treated with respect as a consumer of the products, right, there's the consumer of that story, the consumer of those characters. I yeah, Hitman does it pretty well like and then continues to do so. I would argue, at least in some ways in terms of level design, pure level design. This it's it's the best has ever been and which is good news to me because some of the middle games kind of in this in this series, I feel like dipped in

quality. They kind of had an identity crisis. So I'm so glad that they're better. That are better, But I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Hitman two stelf Assassin on the On the PS two, I think it is a stone cold classic and is a game that still emotionally resonates with me very hard today in this talking about it, Oh that's awesome.

There's a couple of PS two um honorable mention to Shadow of the Colossus, which almost made my list introductions because you talk about emotional games from the PS two that still resonate with you, I'm like, oh man, it's like it almost you don't want to kill those big cool things. I still don't you that one. I hate that one, UM so chilling, and you can kill them they are just killings are pretty nice. Um So my second one so I'm gonna bounce back and forth. I'm gonna do board game,

video game, board game, video game. Uh So, those of you who are familiar to the show, and I know Graham knows this, I love me some Dragon Age. Um and my introduction for this one is Dragon Age Origins. I loved the different character openings. It was the first time that in a traditional RPG like that, it felt like what you chose for your starting character really impacted the story, and those reverberations continued on for

the rest of the game. Like I remember doing a major playthrough and being like, Wow, this is really interesting and I'm bypassing some serious challenges because somebody from that playthrough that I had helped in a really strange way wound up

remembering my character and remembering that backstory. Or like, if you're the Noble spoilers, I guess if you're going to all play Dragon Age, I'm sorry it came out like twenty years ago at this point, like a while ago, but like, if you're the Noble, your family gets wiped out like in the first opening things and that stuff continues on into the late game if you chose that as your like opening origin status and it was interesting to see

part of how part of what I love about a good story is does it relate to my character choices. In this case, it did relate to how I built my character and are those going to have far reaching implications to the rest of the game. And part of my enjoyment of dragon Age is a franchise at least or was going back and trying every single different origin point because

they were all so wildly different. They were all really good. I really liked them, and they all did different things for different characters, and like none of them were really saney, which was kind of cool. Like if you play the Dwarf Noble, you're basically running a dwarf and bank cartel mob

for like the first two hours of the game. I like, and it's wildly different than being like a wild Elf, where you're like running around and there's like a werewolf curse that's a flinting your people, and I'm like, this is such a weird it pinballs around. But it was very, very good, and I remember origins continuing to impress me. And again, part of the reason I came back and did so many different playthroughs was because I was like, I just want to see what happens when I make a new

character. Those first two hours are really really strong, so dry new Origins it is my second pick. Yeah, I don't love everything about Origins, but the opening is exceptional and special. It hasn't really ever been and done that way again um A lot of as games again continue to get more expensive

and take longer to make. Um uh, there is this continued conversation about, well, if we do these open ended design choices, then that means that the majority of the players won't see all the content that we spend years of crunch, not seeing our families and being underpaid in order to make um and um by aware you know, has not mutated in the way that I wish that they had. I mean just for me. Obviously, they're not calling me every day to say, Graham, how do we make our games

better? They're making business decisions, and as they and the best business decisions either. Unfortunately, Dragon Age's Origins Origins is so special. Many of my favorite games, particularly CRPGs, play with this idea because ultimately, what are you trying to do? You're trying to emulate the tabletop RPG experience and the variation that you're like, we're going to your first two hours basically of the game are going to be completely different. You're going to play into it,

and then they're gonna sock at you into the main uh campaign. Um, it's not something that's cast off. And then you have your you know, we're gonna go to four regions before we go to the final region, and one of those four regions is going to be your home, which means that as you go back, it feels like less like a video game and more like a tabletop experience. Yeah. Um, And they leaned away from that in later titles, which was really kind of heartbreak. I've never been out.

I mean I've seen CRPGs that have done that, but not a game kind of like of not not to this degree and not to the way that it's specialized. I you know, it was such a cool idea and continues to be there. You know, we've talked about other novel systems in games, like the Nemesis system, which is I think cooler in prem then a lot of it ends up being but origins I do think completely sticks the landing

in a way that it feels like a magic trick. The sheer amount of work that was put into it. They didn't have to do that stuff they did, and yeah, I have nothing for respect for it. And I think that's part of the reason why I dislike the other games in the franchise, because it feels like a lot of that storytelling and a lot of that work was cast off for the the ub Soft. Let's go around a map and find checkpoint. I'm like, come on, team, all right,

what's your second one? Graham? I'm ready? All right. So this is another deeply emotional experience based on music, based of time my life. We are talking about my favorite Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy seven. Final Fantasy seven, from its opening cinematic to its dynamic camera, to the storytelling of

basically the first the first section. I mean, I could talk about all all of until you leave midguard, but really I'm talking about the quiet music and seeing this incredible city and then you zoom out into the sky and you get to see the reactor and the camera comes barreling down onto a train. The train pulls into a station, and your characters flip off that train and

start attacking people and you have no idea what you're playing. You're so sold, and the music is pounding, and after you get through this, this three dimensional experience, and you're overtaken by like, wow, this guy Cloud looks awesome and you like slice people in half, and then you just get again just enough storytelling jess An exhibition to keep you going. You're oh, I'm a cold mercenary, but these people are taking part in some kind of

ecological terrorism. That's interesting, what does that mean? And then just a little bit of a mystery, a solid boss fight and a timer to run out and you blow up a reactor like to this day, I think it's one of the best introductions in gaming RPGs and certainly Final Fantasy. As a younger gamer, I eight Breathe Lept the first basically ten Final Fantasies. Everything after that falls off really harshly for me. And I've talked about this, you know, I'm a victim of when I was born. Why I think

seven is so exceptional. But I think that the emotion, the music, the world that it pulls you into the way that you get character, it works perfectly. And his lessons that I've learned many times when I do a no prep story, how much of a hook do you get? How much mystery do you have How do you combine that with the character letting you focus in and really fall into a story and a world that felt like the stakes were real, that it mattered, the choices were being made, and you

were excited to see what was going to happen next. Perfectly based, exceptional and it felt so fresh too, Like I just thinking about the eco terrorist angle, like I remember no one had done or tried anything like that. Like having the environment and the impact of other people on the environment be such a big part of that story, right, was something As a kid I was even like this is really different, and as an adult like I can't.

I can't think of another piece of media that kind of does that, either as well or at all in the way their Final Fantasy seven does. Yeah, For me, what was so powerful about the double edged sort of it was being Final Fantasy and the game's previous to it. In the series six played with a lot of themes and if you line them both up to together, there's there's a lot of things that are directly taken that are copy

carbon copies. Um. But for me, I would rather fight this big corporation than a Star Wars and empire like it's just you know, it's it's it's a lot less interesting to me. But the idea that the fantasy tropes are so strong, and then jump in into three D. But then also it became this cyberpunky magic, fading technology rising thing again and the camera lets you see this city, you're on a train, all of this technology everywhere. So not only was it suddenly new based on the idea that it felt

more modern, felt more technological. Why it was because this ecological terrorism angle was the reason for it. How the light's power? Where does where's power come from? It's being drawn out of the planet, which is killing it. And so you have both the reason for this high tech and the reason for the conflicts being the same thing. Wow, yeah, it's a it's

a beautiful thing. It really is. We honestly probably could do a whole episode on Final Fantasy seven and it would it might have Yeah, it might have to be uncomfortably self indulgent because it's it would be good, though, I don't know, because I think his Final Fantasy seven, there are games like it. Final Fantasy seven I think is one of them. Act Arena of Time or Major's Mask, whichever one. Take your pick um that continued to stand the test of time as like hallmarks and game design. And I

don't think it's just because the gameplay is super fun um. I think there's a lot of stuff that goes into the creation of those games, those themes, the exploration of them, and what those characters do when you combine it with that theme, right, that term of like ludo narrative, like how does the play and the story interact together that makes them stand out and makes us keep coming back to them over and over again? Would it be a

little indulgent? Yeah, but like would it be an interesting case study to talk about, especially from a designer's perspective? I think yes too, because like, why are we still talking about Final Fantasy seven? You know, god n Iron? Like how long? Because I was born in nineteen eighty

eight? Well, and because well, but it's awesome though, right, that's not just because you know, I don't think you're the if you were the only one talking about Final Fantasy seven generation of course I'm not the only person. Why it feels self indulgent is that like saying hello Internet, have

you thought about how Final Fantasy seven is like pretty sweet? Uh? You know, I don't know if I've added it anything to the conversation, but in terms of the intro specifically implanted as themes and how it affected me emotionally, yes, that's something that I feel absolutely happy talking about. Yeah, you know, I think maybe we just do a classic games breakdown. I think that I too, could be kind of cool. Speaking of classic games.

I am what some people in one of Graham's discord chats would call a gloom Haven stand Um I am. I am a thousand percent of gloom Havens, and gloom Haven is my pick for another way do it. And yeah, I thought about it, was like, oh, I can't pick glue Behaven. It's intro is awful. And then I moved on and I was like, I wonder if Kyle will oh I should have called my shot. You should have. You absolutely should have. But yeah, I loved,

I loved the intro for gloom Haven. Um. I love. At the time that I played gloom Haven, I was looking for something different for fantasy. Um. I had played a lot of fantasy. They do though they're iox technically am actually they are, They're they're orcs. But um, I think what I was looking for was I wanted a little bit of teeth. Um. I wanted to feel challenged or in danger or horns. I guess

if you want to go it that way. UM. In my fantasy RPG and I remember a being shocked at almost dying in the opening scenario of a board game. I remember being grabbed by the combat system the second it was used. I thought the opening scenario did a good job of giving you opportunities. I think to use a lot of the systems without overwhelming you. And I think my favorite thing about it though, is that when you know, when you start off Gloomhaven, you are a rags to riches, down on

your luck mercenary. And there's a little line at the end of it that I absolutely love, where like the bandit Gike draws his sword and Reverend's like, all right, well, we're gonna take all of your money or your life, and then there's a little line that says, jokes on them, you had money, you probably wouldn't be here in the first place. Like,

I don't know, I loved that part. It immediately grabbed me, and I recently taught this to a group of players who are out a local game store who are like, oh my god, Gloom even looked so cool. We've heard all about it, and I was like, all right, let's try it. And they had never played a game like Bloomhaven before. They were used to dungeon and dragons. They were used to other classic fantasy

games where like a bandit is cannon fodder. And then one of them ran head first knew a group of bandits and nearly got killed in the first two seconds of the thing. And he was like, oh, oh, they're actually dangerous, and I was like, yeah, budding this. You know, when we we talked about this, I tried to warn you guys, everything in this world is dangerous, um, and you need to approach the

children. That sounded like your teacher voice. It was, Yeah, it turns out people who want to steal you and have a bunch of swords will stab you for your money. Um, who wants to steal me, mister Ott? Someone in a well? Uh No, I love Gloom haveven uh. It is a game that has continued to enchant me. I guess, but I think that opening level is a pretty strong one in terms of a tabletop RPG experience. That's my that's my pick for number three is Gloom haveven

baby. Yeah, so I want to ask you, um I, I feel like gloom Haven as a whole is you know, the strength of it. It's the system, it's the cards. Um So, what is it? I'm gonna press you. What is it about the trow you think does well in in doing so? Um I. I do have a memory of a going into It's like when I was still living in Washington Heights and I went into a game shop and people were like, we're gonna play Gloomhaven.

I'm like, great, you know, let's sit down. And the guy who owned it turned and said, I have played the opening scenario seven times and lost seven times. And I'm like, that's how it's hard, but only when like hard. It's not that hard. And we sat down and I beat it with them, and they, you know, looked at me like I was some kind of like gaming messiah, and I was like, no, you just gotta play it a little more conservatively until the point in which you say, oh god, my deck is almost ran it out,

and then you blow through and hope you don't make it. So I think in general, the game teaches you that because it is difficult, it's it's more eurowe it's thinkier than your dudgeon crawl. So what is it about the intro specifically you've done. You've pretty much done a good job of explaining what my point's gonna be for me, which is, oh, yeah, this is a game world where you're not the big hero. You were not the I mean, eventually, yeah, you get to that point, but you

don't start off as the chosen one. You don't start off as you know this mythical prophesize. Although although maybe you did at Graham, because you clearly you were the gaming messiah for that group who filled seven times. It's a role that I I take, you know, with much sorrow, but if it needs be forward, it's a tough cross debate. But no, you're you already down on their luck mercenary and you play that game. If you play that game like you are the chosen one, you're gonna get killed.

But if you play that game like a down on your luck mercenary who pulls every dirty tree, and you know, the chosen one and abandoned, I don't think you're mutually exclusive. You're not. But but I compare this again, I think I compared a lot to dungeon Dragons or games like that, which, um, you know, have you slogging through a lot of lower

tier monsters with very little fanfare. This world treats everything like it's dangerous and everything like it's deadly, and it would be to you this basically pour down on their luck, cell Sword and I loved that angle, and I thought that the first mission did a great job of connecting that theme of this world, that this is not like we can go save the world or you can do what my grip did and just immediately just mess off to the furthest corner

of the universe to harvest poison mushrooms because they were really expensive and we can sell them fir stuff. But like that's part of the charm of it. And I liked the world was like, Nope, this is really dangerous. And if you treat everything like it's dangerous and you pull no punches, you use every dirty trick in your book, you abuse these systems to beat the monsters, You're going to be okay because the monsters are going to abuse the systems to try to kill you. And I liked that. I like that

angle, and I continue to light that angle. If I want to play right, I have my hero Quest for My Earnest, my Earnest Power Fantasy, and I have my gloom Haven for I want to I want to kick people my selling mushrooms Senulator. Yeah, that's it, that's I enjoy about it. Um that man, what a what a rush opening that box up for the first time. Having never played a Legacy game before, that was my first. That was my first Legacy game. That was that was an

experience. So what do you mean I get stickers? Yeah, it was like one thing, what are all these boxes like? We didn't even look at any of the character classes. We didn't know what they did. We picked a box based on the symbol that we thought looked cool, and we all agreed. We're like, this is it you you were You're riding this character until they're gone, dead or retired. And that was cool. That

was cool too because it forced it to try new things. So I played Risk Legacy in college with a group and uh, you know, we were we were pretty much hooked. And there's all these different envelopes, largely that have different instructions on them. Whoever wins by x number, if you win by new game, if you blah blah blah, you could be able to open under these different scenarios, and at the bottom is a sheet I don't

need everything that you pull out all the plastic everything. There's an envelope on the inside the box. It says never opened this ever, m And we just thought that was the greatest thing in the world. This did you open it? I don't remember when I have read things online where people like didn't take it, like they like burned it in like a Viking funeral and like all kinds of stuff like never you know whatever. That's Rob Davio said in

interviews. He's like, I never thought anyone would listen to me. Um. So that that's a lesson of itself at the board game Police, like if you have game given you instructions like how often will people cheat? And how often will people treat it like it's scripture? You know, Yeah, it's I don't know. Yeah, that was super exciting. I did love to when we like we opened it up. There's a I guess a small

spoiler for Bloomhaven. If you pull everything out of the box. At the bottom of the box, there's an envelope that just has opened this when you think you deserve it. Um, I don't know if that's a direct call back to what I was doing. But I remember being like, that's so cool, um so, and I just don't think it's cool. All right, what's what's your next one? Grandm I'm excited. But when I first pitched this idea to you, part of it was like opening dungeons, intro

dungeons. That was a big part of it. And this was definitely part of the game that inspired me making this pitch specifically because again, these are all games formative to my process as growing older and developing, as what my

taste was and what appealed to me. It didn't help also that this game is like really in depth and exciting, and so I made new characters for it over and over and over again, heard the same intro music over and over and over again, and then the incredible voiceover from the villain David voiced by David Werner coming up to your cell and talking to you, and then you're getting your NPCs, Like I can do all of this dialogue of Balder's

Gate two front to back from memory, doing all of the voices for all of the characters. Oh, the child of Ball has awoken and and part of it is the fact that wake up in a prison cell and escape out I think is an incredible cold open. Plenty of video games have a scene in the middle somewhere where you take your stuff away and you have to get out, and there's really only a couple of solutions that that happened. Okay, you're gonna distrack the guard, or you need to pull them over the

bars, or there will be a key in your pillow. Like I feel like the solutions are you know, I could count them on one hand, sure, but I love the wake up in a prison try and escape scenario a lot. And it's probably a result of Balder's Gate two. If you're trying to create party a party dynamic and create that grittiness that like low level thing that you're praising in gloom Haven. Ah, we're not heroes. We

have a lot at stake. I think taking away stuff initially and then having everybody have a in game experience for why that they are needing to survive together, why they need to coordinate, having to think outside the box, but then also not having a single solution, I think that that immediately draws this incredible synergy between the role play and combat and strategy. I want any solution to be discussed or create the immersion at the table right, and Balder's Gate

two does that. The writing is exceptional. It's really weird and really dark. A lot of the stuff you find initially it builds up the villain, which to me is another great part of media when you love the villain and they're not at an Act three reveal, or they're a mystery villain the whole time, or at somebody you suspect and you know there's a twist of the end. Actually, the unassuming Lamb is in the mastermind the entire time.

When you have an exceptional performance and part of the game is understanding the villain and their motivation, you will have a much stronger story and all of these lessons are part of it. Only then, once you overcome this prison dungeon which is special and has such a flavor, do you get spit out into the city, um sandbox, and then you get to do all the urban D and D stuff. Oh, we're going to explore all these back alleys

and find all the politics, do this other thing. But you feel like you've you've literally emerged from this this great trial to come into the city and it's great. It has inspired me many times and continues to do so incredible music that that intro, that intro screen where I've made so many characters over and over and over again. Bad's Gate too, No question. Absolutely, it's one of my favorite tropes. Is well, I'm happy that you you

touched on it. I love when, maybe it's not in Silia prison, but I love when characters have nothing are forced to scrape by with their wits and what they can find, and then emerge into what unto the greater setting. Right. I've done it for many of my fantasy camp pains, many many, many many many of my games, my favorite video games and board games have done the same thing. But I love it. It's like one of the best parts. Yeah, excitedly awake must have gotten oh blah blah,

Juni prairies, JUNI prepares so stupid. I was thinking about that, actually, be like, I wonder if this did jest there, Like, oh my god, yeah, I even though nobody likes Oblivion, I think Oblivion's intro dudget is great, but like, oh my god, it's the same thing. You're in a prison cell. Patrick Stewart breaks you out, and I think that opening dudget is one of the best, uh that all

the Elder Scrolls ever did. Yeah, I'm a sucker for Mora Wind and Mora Wins weirdness, and I think Skyrim is a walking meme at this point. Um, that's why the Patrick Stewart intro and and that dungeon, Like I still think I feel like one of the strongest parts of that game. So yeah, I would agree. I was actually gonna be I was actually gonna bring up both Elder Scrolls, both Skyrim and Um, it's not is it Oblivion or Moro Wind, It's it's obliving Moro Wind Oblivion. Yeah,

it's that's three four and five. Because I haven't really played Daggerfall, but it's much before my time. But I've watched plenty of video essays on it. I've watched fun and one person because I know my new one guy who was a computer science dude in college who like got dost work on this computer and played every Elder Schools game from the Bigger than Great Britain and so you

could crazy cross it, which is nuts, but it's all boring. It is the thing like it's all procedurally generated and it all looks really sane. So yeah, it's it's it's it's such an interesting time in RPG development. Yeah, oh god, this is I love RPGs. I love I love rg I know, I know that's I'm pitching to, you know, I'm appreaching of the choir as it were, But like, god, it's just it's it's like, what kind of mad lad just makes a game the size

of Britain? And then like just because why not when you had MUDs and other things online and it was all RP and Ultima was kind of the this this level of design to those early times of what is an immersive salmon was an RPG like trying to immulate what you got as a tabletop experience. The idea that you have somebody who is able to react to you in real time, that you're able to have all these decisions, how do you codify that in this specific way? And so what if we make a giant map that

really feels immersive? Was a huge swing and that's what they that's what they did with the tech of the time. So and I this is something I've said many times about game design, especially bout games that I hate and games that I love, because people are like why do you like, you know, you dunk on like t Dragon Society or something, but you're like you don't necessarily for the exact reason that I respect when someone goes and they take

a huge swing. I'd rather someone take a huge swing and make a huge miss and try something really interesting then phoned in and try to do something they think everyone else is gonna like like the Oreos. They didn't even try, like some of the Oreos. Yeah, like, come on, guys, all the thing is that college humor sketch where he did you see that one where Brendan y Mulligan is the fake CEO of Oreos And like at one point

that you brought it up on that episode. Okay, I couldn't remember straight face being like, literally, that's literally the entire joke I'm gonna make for fifty minutes. Yeah, it's good, you guys. Can you can just you can just phone and just and Jesus, he asked, here though, I stand by that. I love it, cheesier, Um, noah, I love it. All right, I'm ready for my last intro. All

right, hit me. This was something you touched on a lot. I m emotions and games are I don't know, if it's just me, or if it was just that I was at a point where I hadn't been feeling a lot of emotions when I played my games. Um, but I played a game during grad school and it just it's sort of I guess hit me at a really formative point. Were there times in which you played games where you weren't feeling emotions? Yeah, some of them. Some of them, I'm like some of them. I think I was too, Like, I

guess I should check in with you. No, no, no, it's okay. Some people are just like, oh, I felt so much when I played are Political Majora's Mask. But I was like, I was seven at the time that I played Madora's Mask or nine, And the sword made fire when I held it down, and then I ran around and I got a cool mask, and I'll remember a whole lot of No, obviously I've got of that world. Didn't strike you, No, I did. Actually,

that's uh not the skullboy. That moon is terrifying. That move exists in a plane of existence that I'm not sure I ever want to be a part of. But in grad school, I played a game and I think it was just at a really particular point in my life where it was the story and what it was trying to say resonated with me in a particular way. And I love love, love, love love super giant games. UM. I have mentioned this, but Hades is not my favorite super Giant game.

UM Transistor is. And the opening to Transistor was such a wild, wild introduction to that game for a lot of different reasons. One UM, a jazz punk aesthetic was amazing a wash in this soundtrack that felt wistful and sorrowful, but still had this sort of gravitas and power like you talked about, I think it sound like a soundtrack and really grab you, really shake you, really be like, yo, this is what we're doing, and then pulling the sword or the transistor out of who you later find to be

the main characters dead lover, dead boyfriend, dead husband, whatever you want to call him, and his voice coming from the sword really being the only

sort of character dialogue as you kind of go through these levels. It felt it was such a weirdly stark contrast for a game to have such a vibrant soundscape and a vivid sense of visual design and basically couple that with some of the most sparse character dialogue and sparse, bleak sound design that I have heard, and it was that juxtaposition that grabbed me and did not let me go until I had finished and beaten the game for the first time, and in

many ways still kind of hasn't let me know. I have played many, many games, and for whatever reason, that opening to Transistor continues to just be like, Wow, I can't believe that that was a thing that I got to experience. Are you feeling particularly melancholy? And I was, yeah, nothing about that at the time that it definitely was. I think it was a combination of that, but also the me being in that headspace world liked you this is like and this is I was like, I was ready

and I was ready to feel the sad boy hours. I was. I was given the sad boy hours. But again, that bleak contrast between how vivid and bright and beautiful the world looked and the sparseness of that soundscape are is a wonderful juxtaposition. Um so yeah, Transistors, Transistors my last one. I love it. I know it's not technically in the intro, but there's one point where she takes her more like a motorcycle across a bridge and it's that long. It's almost like a long shot of just her riding in

silence with the soundtrack. Um. Yeah, very very grabbing, very arresting. So Transistor. But yeah, I know I Transistor. I feel like it's in in this Like then, the great thing about Super Giant games is that they continue to you know, innovate and grow upon each other. Um. When Bastion came Advocate, everybody loved it and it's a really solid, awesome game. Um. But Transistor and Pyre really started to kind of play with more ideas and got really experimental in like a really exciting way. Um

talk about big swings. Um, I think definitive definitively Hades is their best kid. Um. But and and again I'm not I'm not having this's not a hot take for whatever. No no, Um, but it's hard to argue that the Transistor was really special and all of Super Giants games are really special. So um that affecting you in such a strong way speaks to the power of their storytelling. Yeah, and they they don't they don't ever seem to like deviate from that either, Like they take big swings all the time.

Like you said, they keep innovating. Um, I was surprised that Hades is getting a sequel, the first sequel ever, but like, Hades is so good and they completely nailed something like absolutely no shade for coming up with no play done. Uh for a sequel to the best game they've ever made and one of the best games anyone has ever made. So like, well, and I'm interested because it's for that, it's Super Giant. How are they going to innovate on it? Because I know they're not just doing

anything about the game. I know nothing about Hades too. Nothing. Then I'll tell you one thing. I know that, sister. That's it. That's all I know. You're going from the bottom to the top right here, You're going to the top to the bottom bottom. The only thing I'm gonna tell you, Okay, Yeah, I would say I want to know nothing, because I also know that if there's one thing Super Giant does and does well, they're like, if they're doing a sequel, it's because they

think they could do something special with it. Yeah, And I'm I'm I'm pumped. I'm ammed out of my brain. I'm like, it's gonna be sick, it's gonna be so good. I still haven't played a bad Supergiant game. I don't think I ever. Will they keep their philosophy the way in there for sure? What is your last one? Graham? I'm excited. Yeah, absolutely so um. In terms of influence on the way that

I've run tabletop games, like it's no question balls Kate too. UM. But one of my favorite experiences as a curator and as an evangelist for good media, good stories, good comic books, good music. UM. I love sharing with the with people. And that's why I love tabletop games.

That's why I love board games and role playing games is because they are experiential by design, and by placing myself in a role where I get to say, hey, come over here, come look at this thing, it means that I am responsible for creating that kind of environment and I and I take that very seriously and it's really important to me. This is a game that, probably more than any other game, I said here and I put a controller in somebody's hand and I sat them down and I didn't say anything,

and I was like, just play. Because I think the first minute is exceptional. I think the second minute is exceptional. I think the first five minutes, ten minutes twenty minutes thirty minutes are all perfection, and I'm excited because we've broached this as well as it's sequel, which is nowhere near as good, but you like more, and that's BioShock one. BioShock ones opening

is potentially the strongest of any video game ever. I there's there's certain things designed wise that I prefer about system Shock, particularly systems talk too but in terms of not wasting your time those talkie opening sequences, and I'm not gonna really talk about much of anything in any detail at all as best I can, just to say that the number of excellent hits within the first five, ten and twenty minutes are all there, and you're the point where the opening

cut scene is so short that more than once, and I was very excited when this happened in college, when I handed the control to a friend and the first time you can control it, it's so overwhelming that you just sit there and you're staring at the imagery. People don't realize that they can move, which is exciting, and then finally a little thing will pop up that's you can use the left control or move and they're like ah, immediately,

it's just so exciting. The opening cut scene is so short. I'm so excited about it every time because I love a Lord of the Rings opening monologue. I'm a huge sucker for it. Like let's talk about the war twenty thousand years ago, and let's do this, and like let's get the emotion of Galadriel and then finally place you in the shire. I'm a huge sucker

for that. The idea that BioShock gives you just this tiny little to tease and then this incredible opening image, and then everything you do for the first hour are interesting and scary and weird and beautiful and fascinating. It's the best video game intro ever made. Yeah, I don't get tired of it,

and I think it's exceptional. Yeah. Yeah, there's a reason why plenty of people tattooed the dang things on their wrist, Like I know so many people who have done that, just because, like like Transistor for You and like F seven, BioShock hit at a time where a lot of people hadn't played games like that. It was mainstream enough it looked like a first person shooter but really isn't, and so a lot of people who hadn't played games

that philosophical or political or scary or again taking the huge swings. It introduced people to this idea. But for me, again, it's all about the emotion. It's all about how complicated you can give it and have people actually absorb what you're doing in such a short period of time. I'm shocked we haven't said the phrase master class yet in this episode. Right now it goes to us. Kudos to us, but I'm gonna break it. Yeah, that whole series again, that was one that again to follow me. No,

no, I love you stop there. I love the whole series. I'm one of the people who I loved BioShock Infinite. I loved bosh is very bad. Wow, that's wild to me because I loved Infinite. Um I thought two was the weakest out of all of them. Um. Yeah, but again, big swing, it was a different Big swing. Playing is a big Daddy is wild. And then it has one of the best DLCs. Um of generation have not played the DLC for it. That's my DLC is significantly better than the main game. Interesting, it like it.

It saves the game in such a way. And Wow, I could talk about the difference between the main game and the DLC a whole episode and about

what it teaches about to sign that's how good it is. Okay, cool interest all right, Well then that means that's something that I I definitely need to kind of, you know, get get into then because I loved again, I loved all of BioShock um and I. But I do remember playing one and having a very similar experience where I was at a friend's house and they said, I'm not going to tell you anything, can you just so

happy? And it was awesome. It was it was sick, and I was sitting there going, oh my god, like half of this is you could do this in a game. I was like, what the what what it's it's about the third or fourth hit. There's two or three or four things that all happen in a row. And I'm not going to be specific again because I don't want to ruin this. Even even if this game I

will never ruin. No spoilers for this at all. But there's there's like the fourth big reveal, uh and my friend is sitting on the couch and he turns to me wide eyed. Not a bit of video game player, so like struggles with the first person controls kind of and wide eyed goes this is just storytelling, which I feel like you could put on the box. Yeah. I was so pleased that that was his reaction. This is just

lit, old fashioned storytelling, storytelling. I will also go one step further too, I think um in praise of BioShock Infinite or not, although I would BioShock UM, I think the environmental storytelling of that is just as strong as the as the everything like finding the different like notes and audiologs and all this stuff that paints a vivid picture of the fall of this place, UM and the people in it is as starkly, starkly, starkly starkly arresting then

as it was when I played it like two months ago, and I was like, oh my god, this is so bleak, and that's such a good job of sucking you into that world. Like I remember minor characters who don't appear in the game at all except an audiol I know their names,

like it's crazy. Yeah. Environmental storytelling really became the buzzword of a generation, you know, like or buzz phrase, uh, you know, just just below ludo narrative dissonance because people realized, oh wow, how do I do these things when you have a kind of media that is based on player agency, Like how do I tell these stories without cut scenes? So it

was audiologs became really in vogue again, this all systems shock stuff. Listening to other people talking, Um, it's theres all this absive sim innovation that sort. It infected all these other games through the mainstream booming success of Hioshock one. So, yeah, what a game? What a game? Shouts Kendlov game shout outs Kenlo mean shouts irrational. He's kind of a trash human. But oh no, oh yeah, shout out to pull Pot, shout out to Kenn space Sty Why what did he do? I feel like I

can't game. People are terrible folks, you know. Oh that's sad. That makes me sad. Well, hey, great game though, great game. Game, that's just that's just good old fashion storytelling. Don't give. I don't give pull Pot of pass. He didn't write by Yeah, that's true. Maybe if he did. How to get more bad? So terrible? I can't even make I can't even finish that joke. Mary Mary kiss kill, Ken Levine, pull Pot, and Kevin Spacey, Oh god,

might kill myself three times over. Um, I'm supposed to do the weird question at the end. I know, I know, I'll I'll wait for your weird question, do your plug, your plug, and then I'll do your weird questions. Um, so simple plug. If you've not gone after rain, it's still available over our friends and ipr um. Right now the desks Dork's storefront is officially open. Everything says out of stock, um because we're Why are you telling them? Because it should be because it will be

open very soon. That's what I'm saying. If you go there, it's not an error. Don't worry about it. Just keep check her back. I promise. I'm just excited. It works and it looks good. Listen, let me let me share my excitement the world. Let let let you know that to let you buy absolutely nothing. Yeah that's true. Um, I don't think that works, you know, but it's cool and it's pretty and I like it. Um No, but it should be getting updated very

soon. Just okay. I know. Well. The reason I'm telling people is people have been looking and they're like, hey, stuff sits out of stock. There's a reason. It's the back ends almost done. Um. Just I wanted to share the progress of that, which makes me really happy because you can go ahead and you can get yourself a copy of Fear within very soon, which is cool because we have more copies to sell. We bought partners. We can do that now. Just wild to think about.

Shout out to us, I guess for continuing to grow at a rapid clip, which is really cool. Man, Kevin Levine, I don't know if I want to be a peace in the pot with him if he's a bad I was because I didn't know he was a bad person. I mean, if you run a video game company, you're probably a bad person. Oh no, well, I hope you're on a board game company. I hope that doesn't a I mean, you know, the the crunch culture is not

quite the same. Yeah, you know that's true, especially because the only person who would be crunching is me, the designer of You Do your Crunches? Mister, I was gonna say, but it's like us whipping myself in the back to keep to keep working faster. It's like, have you ever seen the there's a meme? So Panic at the Disco recently announced that they're

retiring. But Panic at the Disco is just brendan jury like it's just the one guy, and so the meme is like him pointing at himself in the mirror, and it's like panic at the disco discussing whether or not it's going to go on hiatus. And it's just fun. That's what it is. Um. No, just you know, get get a copy aafter him my pr You can follow all of us on all of our socials. Um. Though some support to our our man, Graham Cans. Um. It's pretty

cool, dude, we like him. Thank you to everybody voted in the Annies. Uh. It closed this week. Um Uh. Kyle and I are both Any nominated designers as part of the Level one anthology, and we're both gonna be a gen con attending that ceremony to see if we win. Um. The ENnies are open to the public for voting, so that's kind of what makes them special. Um. If you voted for us, thank you. If you didn't vote for us, UM, that's okay. You know, I wanted to vote for the games you like. Yeah, I'm

no inconvental about such things. You probably voted for, you know, maybe the five V supplement or call cthlulhu or you know something else. That's okay. You know we're coming. We're coming in and hot when our own games are individually uh nominated. Next year, next year, Oh yeah, next year. Next year is the year, man, it's gonna happen. It's the year it's gonna happen. It is. I'm excited to stay tuned to see if we're any winners. Yeah. Oh man, dude, being in

anyone winner what that'd be wild. That'd be wild to say, that would be cool. And they're gonna be just got to go off the deep end, go all these crazy parties, like I'll be stuck at a well, I'll have to make a second print run of these golf cartons. It's gonna be crazy. Listen. That's why we get to the money and the it's the money in the richest money in the glory. I just imagine how much diet Cooke you could buy. Oh my god, dude, just imagine.

I'd be drowning and ascertain. Um are you are you ready for your weird question? I am ready excellent? So uh you Ken Levin? Yeah? Uh is there or what cryptid do you think would make the best mall cashier? That's a good one, thank you. Um, let's see all right, So cryptic crypted would make the best mall cashier. Well, let's see, just even thinking about cryptids that I don't think or like, um unredeemably silly is such a short list. Um because many cryptids uh um, like

previously what Cyclopean was, are intensely important. They're not just like fun spooky stories. Um. And then there's ones that are un absurdly silly, like Nessie or the Jersey Devil or something. You know. Um. I think Mothman has a nice soft face. Uh. You know I most of the time I've seen Mothman, Um, he looks really hairy uh and is usually drawn adorably. Um. If if you get a troop of cabra, um,

he's gonna be sucking all of people's products. You know you don't want that, no, um And uh you know, so I think I think Mothman has the most like welcoming face, you know, uh, just like kind of an Adams fan Adams family kind of like softness to him that I think that the Malgoths they're gonna love, They're gonna love, They're gonna love him. Man particularly worked at like hot topic, like it'd be the most

famous hot topic in the country. I was gonna go with Mothman as well, because you can't put you can't put a big man, big our big man, Bigfoot. You can't put big you can't put a big foot in the corner. He's gonna disappear. He's gonna disappear at every shift. You're gonna be like, Bigfoot, can you cover me? It just like it. Just put the camera on him. You know, he doesn't show up on the stuff. Yeah, why do you think Mothman? Then you're gonna steal my answer. Not Well, So, for one thing, I think

people just like Mothman. I think he's just a fun dude. He's attracted to bright things. I think that makes him decent as a cashier. He's not gonna get too distracted because the coins are bright and he just that defines distraction. He would get very distracted. He's gonna be fine, He'll be great. And he's kind of cuddly. I don't know every depiction of exactly kind of cuddly, like I feel like you'd be welcoming. Like if Mothman was like, hey, do you want to try you don't know, do

you want to sign up for our hot topic loyalty card. I'd like, yeah, buddy, I don't know what I'm gonna I don't know what I'm gonna buy a lot of. Yeah, I'm definitely measured mouth man. It's like a gangly teenage cashier. You know. He definitely has that energy of like Hillo, sir, welcome to hot topics for sure, like really tall and skinny, you know, like just grew into the body kind of mouth man. This is very gangly. He's kind of hanging around like oh big

Foot. Bigfoot is definitely that like manager of the store who's worked there a little too long and is kind of bitter, like has a suit and tie. That's that's big Foot. Here's here's our here's our next, our next big animated hit. We're gonna have Cryptid's like with mall jobs. We'll make a billion dollars from adult Swim. You know, we'll hit all the stereotypes. I'm ready. I'm ready for this. I just imagine big Foot being like you know, they had dreams once, really saddling. Now yeah,

yeah, he can't work at um like sketchers because nothing fits it. That's like this most sisifician nightmare keeps trying on new shoes just like everywhere, like every time, every time, and then he throws it over his shoulder and there's a cartoon network splat sound as we like fast pan over to this huge pile of busted tennis. It's just trying his best and he just he just can't. A poor guy. It's just big foot going like a Pretzels pluts

across the mall. Yeah, all the Prezels have sucked by the super Cobra because the tuper Cobra got the pro he sucks. He sucks all the cheese dust or the cheese stuff out, like oh, Cabra has really like nasally vice because he keeps like sloping stuff. He drinks like a bunch of nails spray by accent, Like, dude, what are you doing? It's like us, you know the animators. I'll do all the voices, you know. I mean I do know an animator I think somewhere. I don't know

if he's still animating or not. Right, um, but well, I need to make my quick my first billion first, because they they already took my Star Trek Idea, which is the Star Trek Academy and do all the like kids, uh, and like school drama in Star Trek and have a few legacy characters from the series as like teachers. They're finally doing that as a series. Like I'm like, that's my other billion dollar idea. Dang, I didn't realize that was gonna be a series now, I kind of

I would watch that like that might be how you give me. It's been my pitch for ten years. For ten years, I'm like, put me in, put me in, coach, Like, I will be the show runner of the Starfleet Academy TV show and I'll bring Star Trek back in a quality way. That's like I love Star Trek. That's like Young Hercules, the high school Hercules. Yeah yeah, yeah, that was the young whatever

you know, Yeah, pretty little liars. But it's it's Star Trek Academy and a couple older actors from you know the shows are the professors, like people Love That or Gossip Girl. Isn't that the same premise with like shows it's the school school dramas. Yeah, yeah, dramas. I would watch Warf as a professor loved right, my god, professor would be hysterical. He's like trying to like, have you watched the Kids and three of Picard.

I have not. I have not watched season I have don't only watched season three, warps in it. Yes, it's my boy, my boy. All right. So Mothman, Mothman, we've established is the best, the best mall or the best mall worker, mall cashier in general. Well, folks, that has been it for deskined works for today. Huge out out to all of you for listening. If you are still listening to Graham and I brattle on about the new billion dollars cryptia, actually you should be

listening to that. That was awesome. Love apologize earnestness. What have we learned? Mister Earnestness always will get you out of the well every time. Well, that's I know where to look for you. Now I'm out of the well on good behavior at the very waist. Okay, well based cryptids, I'm gonna well throw you in there with the well is cryptids with the ring girl. Oh yeah, I guess, yeah, she does come out of will she crypted? We'll count ring you as a crypted Is that her

name? Ghost? Yeah? Ghostcrypted? She can date maf Man. That'll be fine. Oh yeah, heck yeah, you gotta have a Japanese ghost girl as a as a mall goth. Yeah, you absolutely do. A really offered teenage relationship. He's attracted to like bright lights and she always comes out of the bright TV screen like it's it's perfect. Billion dollars, We're gonna make billion dollars. I love it all right, folks, thank you all again so much for listening. I've been Kyle out for Desk and Dorks.

I've been Graham Dance and a big old Zippanyes Apps out. All of you. Stay boggy, my friends,