DevRel and IDEs (with Jan-Niklas Wortmann)

Welcome to DejaVue.

It's your favorite Vue podcast, and you just don't know it yet. Or you probably do because, I mean, this is the fifty first episode here, and, it's almost a year. It's,

almost a year.

With all the special episodes, we we're almost to 52, and I think the year has fifty two weeks. We're almost at the year. And I think the very first episode we recorded, which will probably never come out, maybe as, like, a little special at some point so people close to it. It was chaotic, but, well, things changed. We improved.

I'm doing pretty good. And, yeah, I'm here with Alex who's on the Nuxt core team. He's not the Nuxt core team. That would be

that would be too much

a lot to put a lot to put on one

True.

Person.

True.

And, yeah, creating content on YouTube as always. How are you doing?

Fine. Fine. Actually, pretty exciting day so far. A lot of things on the plate as usual. And, of course, as in so many episodes, I mean, some it's the two of us.

Pretty good. Pretty good. Cannot complain. I I can't complain. There's actually snowstorm going on in Kansas City, so it's pretty cold. And I don't

So typical German thing. Oh, the weather. It's,

Yeah. It's the worst.

Well, if it's anything like what we've been having up here in Canada, it's pretty insane. We've had so much snow. I think, like, I don't know, forty, fifty centimeters in the last

Wow.

Week.

It it's not that bad. But

There's nowhere to put it anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah. I can shovel it on top of the other snow. Like, crazy. But, yeah, Jan Niklas, tell us what's what are you actually doing when it comes to work? How did you come to this episode here? And, yeah, a little bit about yourself.

So how I came to this episode is quite easy. I just slipped, like, this envelope with a little bit of money over to you at a conference, and here I am. I don't know how that happened. Oh, sorry.

Wait. There's money involved?

Did this happen to me?

Well, that is how you

Cut it out. Cut it out.

No. So, about myself, Jan Niklas Wortmann, developer advocate at JetBrains for JavaScript and TypeScript. So I try to connect with all the JavaScript framework communities out there pretty much. And I in a former life, I used to do consulting primarily for Angular applications. I did also, at some point, do a bigger React project.

I think so.

You were also doing a talk at the meetup before?

Yeah. It was not in another talk. I was in the fishbowl, like, discussion with, like, Guillaume, I think, Eduardo, Evan, and so on. Vanessa and so on. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The in the JetBrains office, where the the pre meetup was last year. But, yeah, that's that's correct.

Yeah. So that's how I got into the Vue community. And since then, the the Vue community has been very open and welcoming, so I feel quite comfortable here.

So maybe a place to stay after seeing React and Angular, time for some joy, so to say.

In terms of, like, community dynamics, I'm always surprised how very different those communities are.

Why are they so different? Now now I'm curious because as you've been through through some of them, please let let So the

the thing that I always loved about Angular, they have this Angular team embraces that slogan a lot is that mantra of, like, come sit with us. Right? Like, they're very approachable at conferences. They're always out in the hallway, like, talking to people. So it's just a very welcoming and open community and just, like, this cozy feeling in a way.

Angular Renaissance.

Yes. Don't get me started on that. I probably need to you need to get an explicit mark or something on that podcast then. But, I would wish the Angular community was a little bit more in that sense. And the React community feels, to me, a little bit like this typical high school scenario where you kinda have, like, the cool kids, and and it feels a little bit like that.

I mean, besides conferences, you also, like, talk to people online, I guess. So it's not only like, hey. Here are the three conference I visited. I mean, in general, you're you're quite active online based on being a dev rel. But also before, I guess, you were, so that also comes into play.

Yeah. It's just a great way to connect with various communities unrelated to, like, country boundaries, basically. So I like it. Yeah.

I said before on the podcast, but I I haven't gone to any conferences outside of Vue. So I I'd like to at least broaden my horizons a little bit, go to, like, a broader web development conference. And so

There's that's KCDC, if you're up for some good barbecue.

Okay.

Not too far away.

Not it's still surprisingly far away. But

But not not as far as Amsterdam, for example, or

True.

Or Tokyo, I guess. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I I would love to apply, but unfortunately, I'm already booked there, so possibly next year. Yeah.

You should. The barbecues would be good.

I wanna come for the barbecue and the conference, of course. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Of course. Of course. No. But I'm I'm really planning on on doing that still. Oh. Yeah. We'll be fine with Michael. Yeah. Maybe you you'll find the time. I think the the CFP is open until four or five days when we record.

Yeah. Something like that. Something like that.

Yeah. So when you listen to that

Just enough time.

Yeah. Just enough time to apply for our people listening. So try it next time, I guess, because next year, that's, today. But a lot of other conferences open as well, looking looking for some, call for papers or some meetups around, like, your your local area. That's always a great way to start.

And meetups have, like, a, like, this cozy vibe that I mentioned before. Meetups are, like, peak for that because you have, like, this you're just, like, a smaller group. It's it's great. I love going to meetups.

Wish there would be there would be more around here. Oh, well, after COVID.

Amsterdam is not bad, isn't it?

Amsterdam has a few. Yeah. I mean, it's not like, I know before COVID, it feel like every, like, German city had one. I remember when I was there, like, no problem. But nowadays, like, the Vue mup ineet Hamburg just started again very happily. Thanks to thanks to Zoey from the community who, just said, okay. Hey. Let's do that. Let's let's bring it on. Then we have Berlin. There is Leipzig every two months, I think, and that's, I think, almost it with the VUE meetups.

You're originally from Leipzig. Right?

I am actually, but I I'm not affiliated with the meetup there, funnily. That's, was total coincidence, but I was there a couple of times, of course.

Great to see.

Yeah. Lovely. But, in terms of meetup, I really think, like, you're getting even with the the JavaScript meetup, I think we had CJ here quite some episodes ago from Syntax and Coding Garden who talked about how the Denver Vue meetup basically got merged into, like, Denver JS and how how that all happened. And it's also totally fine because a JS meetup, like, everybody can bring in, hey. There's this cool framework or what's new and this and that.

So you you're super awesome dev rel at JetBrains.

Exactly.

So I would like to know

That's my job title

oh, okay. That's I think we're better. Does that come with a a pay raise?

No

We can talk about that later.

Except the the the little envelopes at the conferences I heard. Yeah. That's the benefits.

So I've got a question about DevRel. So in the last couple years, it seems like DevRel as an industry or, I guess, as a profession or trade or skill or how whatever word you wanna use, it's kinda had some ups and downs. How is that feeling, like, right now from your perspective? Like, currently, like, you obviously have a job as a DevRel, but, like, how how is the

How long?

How is it? How long?

Sorry

So so the the thing is DevRel is definitely a little bit tricky because it's hard to prove your direct value. Like, it's not that you can say, oh, I shipped, like, 15 features and there's the revenue was increased due to those features by x percent. DevRel is not like that. If you're depending on the kind of DevRel you do, you might get into a position where you can be like, oh, I landed this big deal, but that's not the kind of defer that I personally enjoy doing. So it's very hard to prove the value.

Is it a bit, like, comparable to let's say you have a project, and you have less time or money, and the first thing you cut is docs and tests? Is that, like, the same idea in a way?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes. It's not directly generating value in that sense, if I'm super brutally honest with my career choices.

But yes. Wait. You said that it's not directly generating value. So you means where, like, it's not measurable as I said before? Because, I mean, in the end, like, if you, like, I don't know, show off a company's product or explain certain things, release, I don't know, blog post or whatsoever, the value is it's not like, as you said, a deal, but it's still something that people might connect with the brand.

Oh, absolutely. And I 100% agree. But then the thing that happens quite often is, well, why why why do we pay marketing then? If if that's the line of thinking. Right? If it's, like, brand awareness, that's a marketing thing.

Would you agree with that?

So the thing that I would agree with, and that's how we try to do it at JetBrains, is marketing tries to do brand awareness. Yes. Marketing takes care. And, I mean, JetBrains is very good for DevRel because we have a very clear who are our users and who are our customers or developers. That's not always a direct case for people that work in the Defra industry.

Do you have specific examples there?

I will not name names. Absolutely not. But, so that's for definitely as an industry has been pretty hard. I know a lot of really talented folks that are way smarter than I, maybe not quite as good looking, but definitely smarter and probably also more hardworking that lost their job due to just, like, the circumstances. So there's definitely a risk for the industry.

I can see it also being, like, a lot of fun in that. So one of the things that I like about what I'm doing now is that I get to do a whole bunch of different things. And it's not just like, okay. Next ticket, work on this feature, work on this feature, work on this feature just writing code. But I can actually, you know, do some videos, do some podcasts, do some conferences, you know, do some writing, and I get to, like, mix it up.

I also very much feel like in the content you generate, it's very noticeable if a person is in constant touch with code or not. Like, the the general tone is very different. The topics are very different and, like, how relatable and pragmatic and then it is. Like, how much can I actually use this or is this more like a theory conceptual thing?

I mean, also, like, from my perspective, being not, like, in an official DevRel position anywhere, but, like, the DevRel for for Nuxt and maybe to some degree also Vue. But, like, yeah, just doing it because being part of the core team and then starting to, okay, explaining things, triaging issues, and just also getting in touch with the people, be that in person at meetups, conferences, but also in the community itself and making sure, okay, what problems do they have? What questions are there? So I might not be the best one to answer them, and that's totally fine. I think my job is more like, hey.

That is actually one of the things that I'm quite happy to tackle this year because I connect with a lot of people on Twitter or something when when they're saying, like, oh, I have performance issues here, and the best thing I can do is developer or, like, our developer. Someone is having an issue, can you help them? Because I have no idea how to troubleshoot performance issues. So one of the things that I started this year, I started to get frustrated with that. Be like, okay.

Just wanna say, it's no JavaScript there. It's all Kotlin. Yep.

It's all Kotlin. Well, you you do need to, like, connect with LSPs and stuff that execute JavaScript, but different conversation.

Yeah. But we get we're getting towards the way of working towards JavaScript there. Yeah. Okay.

But that was the thing that I was quite excited about because it helps me connect with the community better, sharpen my skills directly, and also influence the product. Because that's the other thing that I like to do at Stafrel is, like, okay. How can we make sure that the product that we're offering fits the need of our users? Because right now, I can say, like, oh, this is a super important ticket. We should really do that.

Because Here's here's the solution. You can just take it or wait for someone else to click the button. Absolutely.

This is actually, by the way, how the Nuxt project template happened to happen because someone at a conference mentioned that we don't have that. I wasn't aware of that. So I was, like, kinda out of spite. I was like, oh, we should really have that. So Yeah. Now we have it.

But when did it get released? I I think I was talking

Should be released already? Yeah. I I hope. Okay.

I I didn't I

I was I have to miss that. Second week of maternity leave, so I'm still catching up a little bit, but I think it should be released. Okay. Because I assume it is released.

Someone asked, like, you said, like, was there, like, something that's with with, like, an Nuxt template? But maybe I don't know. There was, like, not the the latest version or whatsoever.

We had some issues, I remember, because there's an actually, I forgot to create a ticket for that. If you're in the nuxi say create or, like, the package manager if you pass that, you don't maintain that information in the package JSON. So WebStorm is like, what's going on here?

Yeah.

It just tries to use npm.

So, like, filling out the package manager field in the package JSON when running that. Yeah. It's a great idea to write an issue. Someone might, might tackle that. That's good. But

it's not merged yet, apparently.

It's not merged. Yeah. That that that fits with what I heard at least, but we're getting there. Yes. Maybe.

So I have one more question for you in the, the DevRel vein of things. So you you mentioned one of the things you should do is focusing on engaging, connecting with other developers. If you had to give a piece of advice to someone else doing that same sort of thing, what would be I mean, maybe your best piece of advice or just a piece of advice because it's kind of hard to figure out what what the best one might might be.

The best one is definitely find out where your community is by by far. It's extremely difficult to build a community, particularly around a paid product. It's just very difficult. And this is brutally honest, the whole reason I'm still checking Twitter every day because that's where a lot of our users still are. I don't wanna make political endorsements on your podcast platform here.

On that note, by the way, Daniel Roe, who was also here a couple of times, actually built just himself a little bot, so called roebot. I even have a thing for that here.

I think

no. It's not this one. Wait. We we get it. We get it. There we have it. There we have it. A little sound soundboard I never used until now. But, yeah, he built a little robot for Discord. Just like, hey.

Quite honestly, it might also be depending on the actually, a friend of mine who is in death row and turned out a couple weeks after we met at a conference, it turned out that he lives, like, right across the street. Oh, fuck. So he is in, like, the fintech sector. Like, those people are not on Twitter. Those are, like, massive conferences where they meet, like, once or twice a year.

Now circling back to, as you said, like, finding the where your community lives, I think this is so key and that even depends, like, things outside of tech. If you're, like, into, let's say, bird watching or, I know, kite surfing or whatever, There are old school forums about it where people are still around posting a lot of things. Just, like, find out where it is because that's an interesting space. Of course, it can also be a Reddit, which can be very nice even though we heard differently in the episode of Aaron Francis, earlier. It can also be some results in a nice place, but I've seen a lot of very lovely subreddits with mostly happy people.

I have actually a funny Reddit story that I'm still mildly terrified by. When we and I mean, people it's all publicly available, so it's not The links are the show notes. When we first published our AI assistant web store on JetBrains IDs, we had some design decisions that our users were not quite happy about. We changed them, and part of that was just miscommunication as it often is, but some of them were also just not well designed. Well, it turned out that we had, like, YouTrick, our buck ticket manager.

True.

So

Agreed. But that that's that's a very nice, lovely Reddit story. I expected a different outcome here.

Yeah. Me too.

Yeah. No. That wasn't

Don't post it at Hackernews

Oh, Hackernews Oh oh, yeah. Let's not get into that territory here. By the way, if anyone out there has a funny Reddit or hacking story, share them in the comments or on social media with us. We'll definitely have a look. Like, Aaron, but it was not that funny last episode, but it was still something we hope will come back to the Vue Reddit in the future when a new version of of Fusion is out.

So JetBrains actually celebrated out twenty five years last week or two weeks ago. Correct. Thank you. So we are completely privately owned developer tooling company. Our most known product, our IDEs, WebStorm, IntelliJ, PHPStorm.

Interesting.

And this worked really, really well for IntelliJ.

Yeah.

This works really, really well for Kotlin, which is the programming language that we do. This could work better for our less known product, but different. Sorry. So so that's what we do. We are, like, I think we're, like, 2,000 something people working on

It's very interesting that, like, in a way that also resembles, I think, the average developer. That's just like, oh, I I would not pay x euros a month for, like, as a one time payment for the software. I'd rather take hours and weeks to build myself, but then you go to them and say, okay, we can sell it because it's a good product. So that's Yeah. Step people are missing out sometimes. It's it's a little bit I I like

to kinda compare our products to MacBooks. Right? Like, you're getting a MacBook because everything just works. You don't wanna deal with, like, WSL or whatever the Linux thing on Windows is. And the Windows devices are still slow. Tools don't work well. So and and that's kind of the idea of, like, our tools. Ideally, it should just work and you shouldn't bother about it so that you can drive more.

Interesting. Michael, did did you ever try out WebStorm or PHPStorm or IntelliJ in the past? Yeah.

It's it's interesting because I was just thinking, like, I've heard about JetBrains. I've, like, seen it around, obviously, like, so like, my entire career, but there for whatever reason, there was never that, like, push to try it out. Maybe it's just, like, I I find that I'm very reluctant to try tools and things like that and, like Yeah. You know, even, like, the Nuxt dev tools, it was, like, you know, a couple weeks ago, then I was like, k. I should probably dig into what this like, I've looked at it, but I never, like, learned it enough to actually use it regularly.

Changing tools is definitely a huge cost. Yeah. I and master memory is a real thing.

Yeah. Just getting used to stuff again. Like, this is crazy even though it will possibly boost productivity. Same with, like, using debugger instead of console log.

Yeah. In a

lot of times, it's super helpful. But if you do, I was like, okay. What now? Here, there. It's just like that. Some is just like this. The hard part of getting started is actually getting started with getting started. So Yeah. Like, it's it's tough. But yeah, it's it's really interesting in that sense that, like, I I think with a lot of developers, it's the same of, like, okay.

And that was partially also on us because our software is coming from a more traditional background with, like, twenty years ago. It was, like, very common to pay for professionals. Tools. Like, no one and still to this day, for if you're, like, in testing or database tools, like, no one best an eye at throwing thousand dollar at a license. So we always charge for our products because at the end, we need to pay salaries like mine, which I'm sure you're glad about.

It doesn't only work with envelopes at conferences, I heard. Yeah. I hope it'll be running again. I'm sorry.

So we always charge for our product. And last year, we made the decision to offer WebStorm free for noncommercial usage. And this way, if you decide, hey. I want to look into what the deal is, if it might be able to boost my productivity without, like before that, we had, like, thirty day free trial or something like that. You don't have, like, this time pressure.

For people who are more familiar with VS Code or in Cursor

What what?

Whatever fork

what? Never.

It's just that, you know, some people use it, and I I like to use this app.

Here we go.

I write it. I actually use pen and paper, and then I take photos. And, anyway,

An AI will then transform. Yeah.

It actually works surprisingly well.

That explains a lot of your code, Michael, that I've never seen, but it must be horror like, horrific terrific, I mean, still.

You have to really think through what you're doing. It's it's a benefit.

If we talk on a high level basis, like, the most obvious thing is VS Code has a massive ecosystem of plugins, which is great if you exactly know the plugins that you want and need, which is less great if you don't know what plugins you might want or could be helped. Mhmm. There's a reason that there are, like, 500 the best 10 Versus code plugin block post out there. So WebStorm has a little bit of a different philosophy here where it's more like, on a technical level, all our products are basically a mix of plugins too.

Also auto imported ones. So, like, you don't even have to okay. That's very sweet. Yeah. Because, like, I remember with auto imports, a lot of people, like, what's with refactoring? And then people, like, maybe some kind of, yeah, extension for the IDE could solve that and some tooling. So that's

Theoretically, yes.

If that also works with, like, composables and utils, then, well

I don't know. I need to check that.

Yeah. I mean, if it works for components, then probably, like, implementing the for the same way shouldn't be, hopefully, sort of difficult. I would love to see that.

And language server itself are usually pretty bad at doing things across languages. I mean, if you look at Vue, you have this always this composition of HTML, CSS, and TypeScript. Hopefully, TypeScript. Let's say TypeScript. Possibly.

Possibly TypeScript.

And, like, things to change in your TypeScript file might affect your HTML and even vice versa. We have, like, you can rename classes in CSS. Like, those things just work in WebStorm because we use our, language support and provide that on top of what the language server already provides. So you get those added benefits.

Yeah. Your comparison that you mentioned before of, like, a MacBook versus, you know, a Linux machine or something like that makes a lot of sense. Or, like

I don't know why our whole marketing team doesn't use that as

iPhone versus Android. Like, that makes sense to me of, like Yeah. You get the iPhone because you want it to all work, and it's highly sandboxed and that you can't do a lot of things and, you know but that's kind of the point is that it's kinda figured out for you. Whereas yeah. Let you get Linux because you wanna tinker with things and and screw around with it. And

I think it was a while ago where Anthony was treating Anthony Fu, why he was using Versus Code and the customization aspect of that is a big thing. And, I mean, he writes, like, 15 Versus Code plugins.

Yeah. In JavaScript or TypeScript, not in Kotlin.

So so I'm I have I'm absolutely convinced that Versus Code is the best choice for him. But I'm also very much convinced that WebStorm, if you're developing a B2B application for a big corporate, is probably the better tool. So it it depends on, like, what you're doing from my perspective and also how much fiddling do you like. I mean, in my former life, we're not on record. Right?

No never It is just the three

I I've used VS Code too. I mean, I've probably talk recordings out there for me where I use VS Code. But every so often, I then had that had it that some plug in doesn't work anymore or it's not compatible with something else, and then you're, like, you can yell at the cloud or add a GitHub ticket that something is not working. Whereas when you pay for software, you can yell at a company, which feels a little bit better. And yell at the company in that sense with me me, which is not so nice.

Just just a nice, like,

nice message.

Yeah. Yeah. Niklas, this feature doesn't work, and I have performance issues. Can you help me debug it? Here we go.

If you have an envelope, like, I can help you all day long. Yes.

Or good brew of coffee, of course.

Yes. Yes.

But it's it's very interesting. So I I remember in in my early days when I started university, I was a lot into PHP, and we covered it also a couple of episodes ago there. And people are like, okay. What kind of IDE you use? And people are like, PHPStorm.

So yeah. No. I I fully agree. And that's I mean, if you come, like, from the I mean, original, our main product, IntelliJ, was for Java development and, like, they were till not even sure if there's a format for Java out there right now that is like that, like, the community agrees on. So, like, coming from that mindset and shipping a product with a formatter totally makes sense.

Or ESLint if there's some some some people disagree here, though. So, So it's not a, not a format I heard multiple times from Josh Goldberg, for example.

Yep. I, I have to agree with Josh on that.

I, I understand that. I still like the stylistic rules and I'm happy that Anthony kept him an extra package.

Yes. I mean, it's nice for the people that use it, but I agree with that.

Yeah. Fair. Fair. I mean, there are also tons of other formatters out there. But, in a way, it's also understandable that, first of all, tooling is so much more than just formatting, and formatting is so much bike shedding. So just, like, if there is a community option

Mhmm.

Using it. Like, it can be prettier. It can be whatever, like, format that you use and rules apply, but why not? So I I get that even though sometimes the results are not looking nice, but that's, part of following a standard formatter, so to say. Yeah.

But one of the things that I actually really like about our integrate you you mentioned it is slower because the the thing we're collecting at the beginning about your code base just takes time. Think about it like we basically built the AST for your entire project and also AST across language, kind of. So if you have, like, the view file, we know all the HTML references and TypeScript imports that you use.

So Oh, super handy. Yeah.

And that and that's the thing. Like, it takes time at the beginning, but you usually ideally, there are projects where you switch between projects 500 times a day. But, ideally, you work on one big project. You started once at the beginning of the day or my MacBook is running for months at a time usually. So then that happens at the beginning.

So to say. Mhmm.

Yeah. But this allows us, for instance, to say so one feature we have also now recently is show usages. So if you're in, have a Vue component and the HTML part, you say, hey. Show me all the references. And even if you're like, next and use, like, auto import, that just works.

That's really cool.

So

That's really nice. So we are getting close to the end of the the time we have here. Are there things you wanted to is there something you wanted to mention before we do our wrap up and everything so we can So

there there are actually two things that, I think are worth mentioning. Let's make let's make a two and a half. Okay.

I'm curious about the half. Yeah.

So the first thing I would like to mention here, even though we use Volar and the Vue language server, and you've probably seen that, we still had typing issues sometimes where, like, types are not properly resolved for some parts because we still use our own type engine that is data backed with TypeScript what zero point eight and iterated over that.

Oh.

And we never achieved, like, particular with the pace that the TypeScript team moves and the crazy things they do sometimes. We never achieved, like, 100% compatibility. We had, like for a lot of things, we were faster, but we had, like, probably, like, five to 10% where we just returned utter nonsense for the type resolution. So we are changing our TypeScript engine to use the TypeScript language server. And that is going to be pretty interesting from a implementation perspective because that's a project that's going on for one and a half years at this point.

Oh, wow.

So Okay. All every quick documentation uses TypeScript. Literally every feature in TypeScript you in WebStorm uses TypeScript in one way or another. So therefore, it's just like getting the compatibility right, very tricky. The thing you can do to that for that to help us, and that is now the shameless plug, is go in the settings and view and there it says TypeScript language server or TypeScript server, something like that.

It should be shipped and not only in the experimental. Yeah. On that note, do you have, like, a little blog post or tutorial somewhere where we We can link to people just in case?

Yes. I can send you one that we wrote, like, one and a half years ago when we first Mhmm. Published at Slack. Yes. I'll I'll provide that.

On the show notes, help the JetBrains team out there and use TypeScript, from the TypeScript server default.

Yes. That would be pretty nice, if we can make more progress there. The other thing that I want to shamelessly look like here, because we see that quite often that people use Cursor and WebStorm at the same time, Cursor for fantastic AI features, and WebStorm for fantastic refactoring features. One thing I would highly encourage you to do is check out Junie. Great name.

So, basically, you're also, like, catching up in the AI race, so to say.

Catching up is such a harsh word.

I'm sorry. This just sound like, hey. We use Cursor, but we have that as well now. And I'm not even saying, like, are catching up to the same level, but maybe also catching up and passing over.

So so just on the catching up team, like, our machine learning team has been they have showed some pretty cool things about, like, semantic search. I mean, you you know that pro in VSVersus Code, it's command p, I think, to go to a symbol. Hopefully, in a future version of WebStorm, you'll be able to say, hey, take me to the logout form and, like, more, like, conversational.

So I I'm just saying that's Yeah. Okay. There's some there's

some sweet Yeah.

Good stuff coming there, especially if you, like, have the whole AI capabilities that you're Yes. Power plus the code base and the ASTs that are generated. So that's the other thing.

And they're really good for huge code bases where you're Just

wanna say yes.

I know that I can see I, like, I can get to the feature in the UI, but, like, where is this code? And you could just describe it, and it'll be like, oh, there. That file.

And, like, with having everything built into our products, we can also run, like, sanity checks on the results of the IDE. That's another nice thing that language server is not really possible. We can say, like, hey. Does the code compile?

Yes or no? Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Fair.

Oh, that is okay. So those were the two points. And the half point is some people get slightly frustrated by filing tickets in YouTrack, which I get is not the best experience, but it's very beneficial for us. So if you have issues and even if you I would highly encourage you rather to create a ticket than looking for if there's already an existing ticket or something. It's better to have something twice than having it not at all.

And also links to that, of course, in the description. Both or the show notes, so to to your Jan Niklas DM straight away or to to the huge rack. Yep. Nice.

That works.

Great. Cool. Yeah. Let's let's wrap it up here, Nicholas. Maybe there are there are, like, two last questions. And the first one is, is there anything besides, JetBrains Junie and, the experimental TypeScript server feature that you wanna plug?

I I do. You're you're such a great host. I do. So well, I I feel a little bit, mean to do that now, but I'm Alex, you mentioned before, I'm a huge coffee nerd. And if you think like, oh, you probably get Starbucks every day. No. No. No. No. No.

Yeah. We will have it there for sure. Even if it's not out, then there will be, like, sign up wait list. Then we'll pay it for server. So people do it there down there. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that here. Officially, it's, basically, the other people might know it already if it's out already, but you said it's your first, so to say.

Yes. That's very true.

On the lovely DejaVue podcast. And, yeah, Niklas, last but not least, I know, time is running. So where can people follow you? Not only to ask all the questions about WebStorm, but, also for just chatting with coffee.

Blue Sky. So it's wordman.dev, which is a joke on my name, which is, like, German for word and man. So I just use the English word and man, because explaining that that it's it sounds similar, but it's not quite an English name, got kinda tedious. So it's Wortman.deaf.

Perfect. Henrikas, thank you so much for coming on there. We have so much more to cover. We didn't talk much about Volar. Just a little bit about LSPs or Angular and Vue altogether. I think there is just just one way to solve it. We have to get you back on here in the future.

That sounds great. Anytime. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

Yeah. And for everybody else, if this is not the latest episode, then, you know, just continue listening. Stay tuned. And if this is the latest episode, then check out the older ones as well. We had we already talked about some episodes in here. We only talked about DevRel as well earlier, almost a year ago, in episode seven with Marc Backes. And also well, yeah. Check out all the rest. So hope to see you in the next episode or previous one. Stay tuned, and until then, bye, folks.