Yo-yo what up what up good morning good morning GMD Tuesday June 3rd 2025 look at that another beautiful day to have a beautiful day. I got my cousin Tyler Mando good morning good morning good morning. We even got our producer best everything. Good morning everyone, how y'all doing today? I'm doing amazing man, how are you? I am fantastic, Mando. Thank you for asking. I'm fantastic. I'm great. I'm amazing. Feeling good, man.
Feeling good. I, I, I, I, I'm feeling like Mando in 2024 and 2023. I, I know what it's like now, Mando. To have the sun changes like, you know, hitting me in the face all day long feels good. What's up? Tyler, how you doing? Nice background. I'm good. Yeah, it's sunny here as well in Chicago. We're feeling good today. Our coin green and big show.
Big, big show today. Big show with Big Joe you know we have for everybody in the audience we have Joe Lewis Co founder of Ethereum, founder of consensus and now you know chairman of the board. I think of sharpling gaming or at least in the board of sharpling gaming, the investment vehicle to acquire Billy Dollsworth of ethereum. So the the the theorem macro strategy is is here and Joe Lewin is going to be joining us in the studio and on the show in
about 24 minutes. You know, normally we haven't booked for 10:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, so he'll be with us in a little bit. So today on the show, we're going to go quick. We're going to do a market report. We are going to go through Tyler's top 10 real quick, his quick topic, see what's up, what's up. And then we'll just drive right into the show with Joe and do A and do a, do an interview. We are going to postpone the gateways.
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You know the logo, you've seen it. Wallet Connect on X and Telegram to stay ahead of what's next and Mando what's next. I mean look, some green on the board today. Let's I know you're an Ethereum bull. So it's it's perfect. You've been you've been super bowled up on Ethan. You know I got you this it's like a genie. You rub the little bottle and you got Joe Lubin coming to show it today because you kept talking about it. So let's talk about the market a little bit.
Can you dig it? Hello, everyone. Good day. I think we had a bit of a bounce back across the board really. We had Bitcoin kind of going back towards, up towards around 105 K ETH at just over 2600 and Solana back towards 160. So a bounce after obviously a week, a weekend in terms of headlines, the main one on macros is that we're going to have, again, a delay in the tariffs on China. So a little bit of a softening
of an approach there. And that led to a little bit of a rally kind of across the board. You've also had some weakness in the dollar, which has meant gold has gone a little bit higher again and alongside, let's say, Bitcoin. So yeah, just the same sort of trends of trade not seemed as bad as everyone thought. Bond yields are still pushing higher, but that's a bit of a risk. You had Jamie Dimon came out and said prepare for 5% plus on the 10 year, which I think would be
pretty high. And then we've had yeah, gold going higher as well. So a relatively supportive backdrop, I would say for for crypto, but just some worries about if bond yields are really going to cause some pain here. For crypto specifically, it was another day, I think of ETH broadly outperforming. We've had, as Tyler pointed out this morning, we've had continual inflows into the ETFs actually outpacing the Bitcoin ETFs, which is kind of wild.
We haven't seen that for a long, long time, just over 400 million. It's I think it's ten straight days of inflows. Bitcoin, Bitcoin is looking pretty sorry, ether is looking pretty good here. Just in terms of flows based in terms of actual headlines. Yesterday there were some headlines that that the E foundation is going to be restruct. There's been a lot of commentary around this. If you go to DC investor actually middle comment. The first tweet that shows up is just Mendo's.
You can't make this up, right? This is such a good timeline here. So you're saying DC investor? Yeah, he actually made a good post yesterday, which is, remember, they have made some changes here. But go down. No, maybe go down a little bit. Down, down, down. He's been twitting a lot recently, obviously. Down, down, down, down. There we go. Yeah, even extremely long time Ethereum found the ethos can barely comprehend how much the Ethereum foundation has changed in the last few months.
Most waiting for some kind of catch or a stick stick in the eye. I don't think either are coming. The org is radically transformed and is adopting a laser bogus and pushing you forward. If long time E fans can can even get crocked this and I'm sure the broader market still has no clue full speed ahead. I think what we're seeing here is like they are listing and they get, they are now putting in a more aggressive team for change.
So there were comments yesterday from italics saying that we won a 10X basically ETH on a range of metrics over the next few years. And then now they're putting in place these sort of core ETH devs in a more with more power, I would say. So there's there's changes to if you should go to the ETH and yeah, there we go. They had this big blog post. The main things is that they're putting like a different team of Cordevs in charge, which I think is going to be relatively beneficial.
The main person is this Dankrad Feist guy supported by Dankras Feist. And yeah, people are like very, very bullish on the idea that this is now going to be that pushes it forward. And, and what we've always kind of lacked before is that they've taken a step back, right?
Like, and then they haven't really been part of that BD stuff that we've spoken about this team teams like a team that's going to be a bit more focused on stuff that's going to push forward the the BD side of of the chain too. So yeah, just generally, just generally some bullish, bullish sentiment coming out. I beat there, but we did see a rally kind of across the board. Hyper liquid also obviously is the is the 1L1 beating every everything there.
They got a spot listing for finance US or at least said that they will be getting one in the future, which is pretty wild that finance US got that list is has decided to list them. I I didn't even think they would ever list them, but they have. After Coinbase, right pressure came out from on the Coinbase side, no. Exactly. So you now have major exchanges in the US looking to list them, obviously finance I think in hyper liquid and kind of
somewhat of a baffle. So interesting to see where that one kind of goes, but Hyper Liquid's definitely been one of the main main. Wins. Definitely outperforming here. Yeah, yeah. What is it? Up what, 37 to 4? Reverse the Clementa curse. So it's it, I would say it's ETH
and ETH beta. So you've had you had big Wicks up in like ETH memes are they Athena all had a good day today and interestingly, on the Solana side, WIF has been the biggest gain at WIF looks like it's about to reclaim a billion dollars which it. Is. Which is now starting to catch up the fuck up, which is pretty interesting. Yeah, like a big, big move kind of across the board there in, in a, in a number of different yeah
key EF based coins. And then Solana, I think was dominated by by like Whiff, which has had like a few Kols kind of going after it, which has been which has been good to see. Yeah, I see. Frankly, just looks like it's about to print a double digit kind, although hopefully. Yeah, you know. We still have a a number of different people looking saying they're going to raise to buy Bitcoin.
Interestingly, Sailor is going to do another craft share offering that got some like semi fun on the timeline. I think it's going to going to raise 250 million. There's some, there's another firm in Hong Kong retail, Logitech I think is the name. It's going to buy 1.5 billion of Bitcoin. And then you start to see Tether move it's Bitcoin to this new vehicle, 21 Capital. It's moved 37,000 Bitcoin to this new vehicle now, which is a
pretty wild pretty wild move. There was another company that said it was going to go out and buy Seoul yesterday class over so they're going to raise 500 million Seoul. So this is now a bit of a trend, but like crypto treasuries from all these all these companies remember like this people don't really know why they've started and why it's been so aggressive. If you remember, it was the, IT was all the, the accounting changes that we saw last year that that that was it.
Sailor at the time, yes, Sailor was very vocal like this is going to be a big change that they can mark them to market essentially. That has allowed a lot more companies now to explore this. And it feels like it's going to be that's going to be with us for a while, you know, going to be with us for a while. So good across the board, probably best for hyper liquid Ethernet beta and then all the stuff I would say is a bit mixed. OK, perfect. Good outlook here.
Looking good. I think, you know, I feel like we were looking bottom, but I'm always called, I am always scared to call bottom there and I'm definitely not calling it out season by any means. So so we'll just wait, but love the news on Ethereum. We'll dive deeper into all the theorem news, thoughts and all that stuff in about 15 minutes. Would jump S but super bullish on the ecosystem really waking up here and and and making a move. I think it's kind of we've talked about this before.
Guys like that meme, like do something, you know, the stick man like and The thing is doing right. And so now it's like a restructure and this and that. So I think definitely pay attention to that and what's going on in on the Ethereum side there. All right, Tyler, let's get a quick fire through what you got for us. Today. Yeah, folks. Crypto majors nice little rebound after some China tariff relief.
We have 8th leading the way up 4 percent. 2620 Bitcoin at one O 5 three hype leading all it's up 15%. What a rebound on a lot of overlap with Mando's headlines. I'll go through them again quickly. The theorem foundation announced protocol that's their new initiative to focus on scaling the L ones and L twos plus a better user experience along with a change in leadership.
Hong Kong based retar writer Logitech $1.5 billion in Bitcoin to buy Michael Saylor strategy announced a new IPO for standard STRD perpetual stock offering. I think starting with 250 million to buy Bitcoin, but they can of course raise more Metaplanet got to 8888 Bitcoin and also achieving a 225% yield over the past year. So it's one strategy is working at least so far. Mando mentioned the Tether news
moving to 21 capital. Another piece of Tether news, they announced XAUTO tokenized gold, Tether is tokenizing gold and now on the TON blockchain, they plan to go multi chain with that product. We also saw Circle up its IPO offering after interest from BlackRock, they're now looking to raise up to 900 million in a $7.2 billion valuation. So that raised target is going higher.
And then somewhat negative news Meta shareholders resoundingly rejected their Bitcoin treasury proposal 95% no vote on that so Mehta will not be acquiring Bitcoin anytime soon in token handover protocol news, Rob Hood announced the acquisition of Bitstamp that is officially complete. We knew about this for a few months, but now it's gone through giving them more than 50 global crypto licenses a new crypto client base infra and this crypto as a service product
targeting institutions. Gandhi solves first ever ERC 20 loan alone against a a a token holding Guess what the token was wrecked. So wrecked. Making some history over on Gandhi in Clanosaurs getting an animated TV series 39 episodes, 7 minutes long aimed at kids 6:00 to 12:00. So that's going to be an interesting one to watch. And then Rex, of course we got to bang the drum one more time that drink cell goes live here in about 100 minutes so 12:00 PM Eastern.
Make sure you're ready for that 20. Minutes sell out. Five minutes. Public go USA. USA is going to go. Team Europe. Now let's go Europe. We will see rounding this out AI was up five percent, 10.3 billion. The leaders were green, slightly green Splat and AXR we're topping over about 25% each meme coin leaders we're very green Pepe leading the way up 10% width of 15% SPX up 10% walls coin that ecosystem was up.
It rebounded back to 140 million and and then one of their eco tokens clad one of the top movers on the day up about 150% to 16,000,000. So big move there loud down only seeing below 6,000,000 now as they've been talking about perhaps changing some of the the levers and measures in that experiment. So we'll see where that continues to go. Other than that, couple pieces of NFT news. Moon birds continue to grind up their .9 ETH following the acquisition.
The skull of Lucy set a record yesterday. 120 three $100,000 Record, break and sell for those. Wow. And right after yesterday's show, Pixel Vault announced they are auctioning off their historic set of 16 crypto punks. Those were an icon back in the 2021 NFT era for those who are around or the basis of those, those comic books, the punks comics, which were also an incredible trade for anyone who was around in early 2021. I got some you going on some pixel vault lore tied to Mendo.
So the first collection Mendelinovi did was inspired by Pixel Vault because they were going to make a comic. I remember the D Jens comic. Pixel Vault was just before D Jens, yeah. Yeah, literally, like the week before, the weekends before, like it was the same compressed time, right? Very, very soon after we were. We were just. We were just after D Jens University. Oh no, not. We don't talk about that. Oh, I remember. That yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy.
Yetis cool cats. All of those were around the same time. You guys. Pixel. What a cooked pixel block. We're the same weekend as bulls on the block. Bulls on the bulls on the block. I still have some reply guys with bulls on the block PFPS I pixel what was point O 8 E mint? I went to like 12 ETH. I cooked. I think I turned like 1 E to like 55 ETH on pixel vault back then. That was one of my best trades of my life. Crazy. Then I lost it all. But that's just part for the
course. Yeah, he was scraping together 8th to buy on secondary like .2 Yeah, then a few months later live. Despite me banging the drum as high as I can to either of you own ETH? I have. I told you I have bought a lot of Pepe and mug a couple weeks ago and wrecked. That's the same thing. So what? I said what do you mean? Any ETH I I would. Say I have, I have 30 percent, 30% of My Portfolio is allocated to Pepe Mogrect at the moment. Right.
And the other 70% is far coin. Tyler's got the nod of a man. He's. Tyler, I'm in the ETH betas, crypto punks, and a couple ETH memes. No, I didn't count my crypto punk in there. No get out of here. Crypto Punks is a beta you're going to die with. That What's our bet on ET? Come on. But you're not going to sell it. You're going to don't give it to your kids. I don't think you bought to trade it. I can I can still participate in the Root on the East rally.
As everyone's giving me shit now, Yeah. Wait, hold on, Mando hanging. The drum as hard as I can. And you guys? Well, Brother, Brother Pepe, you saw the candle. Brother, brother, you saw the candle on the Pepe today. You sound like that restaurant you went to last night. Dude, honestly, you know why, guys, I have a story for everybody. Yesterday I was a victim of cultural appropriation for the first time in my life, and now I understand what it's like.
Mando recommended. By the way, Mando has been incredible. He's recommended so far, 10 for 10 recommendations in Lisbon. He incredible, incredible. I got to give him that credit before I bash it, but he sent me to this place called Cafe Tehran. My last name is Tehrani. OK, supposed to be in rainy restaurant. I walk in there, first of all, it's nothing Iranian on the menu. It's Arabic and you guys know it's this other, it's pretty
frothy out there. And, and then I said, you have Kobe Day, which is like our main meal, right? It's like you go to an American restaurant, like you have the burger and they go, what's that? They go, what's that? I was so pissed. So I, I, I accepted the fact that I was in a different restaurant and it's not a remain restaurant. So there's no Iranian restaurants in Lisbon and there's cultural appropriation man, though yeah, they claim they were Persian restaurant.
I all I said was I think there's an Iranian restaurant around. There, I'm going to open my own. Don't worry, I'm opening my own. You can. Be partners. You're welcome to be partners. You can be a silent partner in the restaurant. My mother's going to run it. It's called. It's going to be called Dastan, just like our parent company here. And yeah, exactly. Ari. He's like, what the fuck? In the Iranian restaurant without Kubi Day. That's and thank you, Ari.
He's my fellow person. Middle Eastern food is something that I have. The weird things that I have not found very good on Lisbon are Middle Eastern food and Italian food. There's not that many Italians. It's OK. The rest is great. I just, I just had a meeting with actually one of those. But not that many Italians. And like Middle Eastern is like, it's like what you said. It's like it's actually some guy from a completely different country who's decided to do the
cuisine and called himself that. Like every single chef in there is like full on like white. Yeah. But like, you know, like, if I go to a Persian restaurant, I want to see a grandma in the back fucking cooking up, you know, like, I want to see like, yeah, that's how it is. Like, you go to a Persian restaurant, it's like, oh, you know, they were playing Ed Sheeran, bro. Ed Sheeran. They sang one Iranian song and they're playing this shit all day.
You know? Nothing wrong against Ed Sheeran Restaurant. There's one of the two Israeli restaurants. It's like there's one Turkish and like there's like it's, it is light on on the Levant area. Let's put that. I'll open it. I got this. I'll open a Persian restaurant. You're all invited on me the first time. Then you got to pay. So back-to-back back to Tyler's. Back to Tyler's topics. Yeah, we still have a few minutes before Joe comes in the studio.
What was your, what's your top headlines here, Tyler? Yeah. Should we talk about the sailor heading a bit more because I think it always gets people a little rattled now. Oh yeah, when he makes these announcements. So the news is he's launching a new perpetual stock offering. It's Stride. STRD will be the ticker it's perpetual offering.
Institutional investors select non investors, it looks like they're going to price at $100 a share going to issue 2.5 million against 10% preferred Class A of MicroStrategy is how I understand this. I'm just curious on on Mando's thoughts here. Is this the type of raise that we like because it's via equity? That was my general read on it versus like a lever debt. Yeah.
So it's interesting if you go into the details, they have non accruing dividends which is quite an important thing like now what this does, what I do think this is bad for is the common stockholders of micro traction. When you when you get when you get a preferred equity offering, this may go over a top of a lot of people's heads, but it may not. But preferred means that you will get paid a dividend first. So if anyone's going to get paid a dividend, you get paid at first, OK.
And they've said you're going to get 10% dividend. Now they don't have to pay that dividend. It's a non cumulative dividend. But it's if they are going to pay a dividend, then they then they have to pay these guys 10%. And it is also, but it is also equity at the same time. So it says strategy will not have, will have. Sorry, Let me just let me strategy will not have any obligation to pay a regular dividend for any regular dividend period unless strategy declared such different period
prior to the regular. Yeah, well, yeah. So there's no dividend interest or other amount will accumulate. So basically it's base, it layers the if you own micro trashy stock, like I don't particularly love these because it means that that these guys get paid a dividend and you you might not. And and that's absolutely fine. That's kind of actually how this has been designed. It's not a huge amount like of what I could see. It's not like it massively changes their leverage.
And I think there's a lot of focus on micro strategy right now. There's a lot more companies which will fall before micro strategy. But this does point to, yeah, like this is the thing right now. We're going to raise debt to buy to buy crypto here. And I think it's a little bit of a worry kind of across the market. Two major things that you heard from that Bitcoin conference was we're going to raise debt to buy Bitcoin or sometimes it's press, but like sometimes it's converts.
And the second thing was Bitcoin lending. Both of those things is add leverage to Bitcoin and and at an institutional level. So I think what you're really is sowing the seeds of quite a quite a horrific downturn. If you if you saw a sustained period of lower prices, that's for that way. Perfect. I totally. I understood everything you just said. What are you drinking? What's the drink of torch today, Amanda? My wife just got this for me. I actually don't know.
I think it's like a Chai Chai latte. Nice, nice. What would we do with otherwise? Why would I feel like all three of us be fucking dead? Suddenly a drink appears. Suddenly a fruit bowl appears. Or else I would feed myself. Did anyways. All right, so that's great. I see. I see Joe in in the studio. Just a reminder to everyone, we're live on audio, but this show is really more of an visual experience. Let's put it this way. So Joe will be joining us on video.
I see you in the studio, Joe, 10 seconds exactly. So we've posted Tyler Mando and I and from our on our pages, respective pages of broadcasting. But you can also catch the show on YouTube, which I kind of think it's a better experience and soon on other platforms. Next week, we've got some changes coming to the show, which are for the better for everyone. But anyways, for now, you can catch us on Rug Radio, YouTube
or on natively. Anyways, let's get the man himself, Joe Lubin, in the house. Joe, how you doing today? Good morning. How you doing? Hey, guys. I'm doing great, fantastic, fantastic. Actually, Joe, I just left a meeting with one of your team members on the minimize side this morning. He says hi. Very cool. Yeah, Alexander. Where Where are you today? I am in Lubin. No, no. Very nice. Yeah, I'm in Lisbon. There's an NFC Lisbon conference.
A lot of us are out here, Benny. I know Benny been trying to get you to buy a pumpkin. I know you're the Sam spread. Did Benny whisper to mention that first thing? Benny's the whisper, you know, punk masters, Sam Sprat Whisper. But we'll talk about that a little later. We'll talk about that a little later, Joe. Yeah, a lot of people, as a matter of fact, we're saying, hey, we got to get Joe Crypto punk, but we'll keep that chatter for later. We got a few options for you.
We're going to show you on the show anyways. Yeah, we're we're putting in, you know, from from from from all over the world at the moment. Joe, it's a pleasure to have you listen. I don't think we need any introductions here when it comes to Julian in the world. The crypto. I mean there Co founder, founder consensus which you know, obviously you got a lot going on there and most recently you became a board member. Chairman of the Board.
Chairman of the board of Sharp Link Gaming, which we're going to be talking about here. Congratulations, Joe. I mean, why don't you give us maybe a TLDR of this new announcement which we've been talking about every day. We were going to go in depth into it Yesterday we said Nope, hold your horses. Joe's coming on tomorrow to talk about it. So why don't you take us through the Sharp Link Gaming, you know, and the billion dollars that was raised in order to acquire Theorem.
Yeah. So I'll keep it brief because you guys probably have questions and and we can riff. But we've, we've been doing research for about 6 months to decide whether we wanted to get into this kind of investment or or this kind of opportunity. We been scanning lots of different ways of doing it, scanning different target companies that we could either reverse merge into or or lead a
major investment round into. And Sharplink popped up a very small number of weeks ago and we've been sprinting to get it done. We felt it was going to be incredibly valuable to be pretty much the first major mover. Consensus thinks of itself, has always thought of itself as the Ethereum company. More more recently, we're in Ethereum first pan ecosystem company because we've got to provide infrastructure to the the whole reasonable decentralized protocol ecosystem.
Lots of great projects beyond Ethereum, but of course, all roads flow to and, and through theorem. And so we identified this opportunity. We said, let's go. We talked to lots of investors and it was just an unbelievable Sprint. Our Corp dev team, our legal team, our finance team did the most heroic thing. Days, nights, weekends, and we got it done. And it it. I don't know if you noticed but it popped.
We definitely know this. Yeah, we were, we were very pleased with the initial performance and and structurally we think there's no reason why it shouldn't just keep going for maybe years, maybe decades. The, the way, the way society moves there, there are deep structural things that drive certain financial flows. So in the US you've got treasuries that for 30 years grew lower and lower in their interest rates and and appreciated for a very, very
long time. So lots of trading strategies were based on that Japanese carry trade, decades of of borrowings, yen and and investing in, in different higher yielding trades. And we strongly believe that there's a paradigm shift underway to a more decentralized world economy society. And we think that's going to be pretty good for what I think is the major productive asset in our ecosystem. Ether should be quite good for Bitcoin, should be pretty good for a whole bunch of other
tokens. But I think the Big E will end up being Ether And, and you can imagine with the structure of these kinds of companies, these kinds of treasury strategy companies, I could imagine that if you invest in it, that you're going to keep growing the amount of ether that you hold in, in each of your shares. And, and the price of ether is likely to like this is not financial advice. I'm not licensed, let's say financial representative.
I, I am licensed. I'm self licensed as an, an Ethereum Rep, so I I can talk about Etherium and it, it seems just enormously likely that that the Etherium ecosystem will continue to grow. I think we're at our, our broadband moment now. And, and I guess one more exciting thing is that the Tradfi meets Defy.
Yeah, we're going to, we're going to be on earnings calls, we're going to be on CNBC and Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal and bug radio and, and, and we're going to be talking about Ethereum and Defy. And we're going to be explaining it to Tradfi professionals because they're going to be seeing people making money in this particular strategy.
And there's nothing more motivating to learn about the intricacies of Ethereum and Defy than a really compelling strategy for Wall Streeters to to make money. With Yeah, well, I love that. Go ahead, Mandel. Lightly, so is the is the theme because I think a lot of the Bitcoin treasury companies have just they're just buy and hold.
They're more like, you know, the more commodities traders, almost unladen trading, they're just, they're like gold vehicles almost you, you, you consider this to be a productive asset. So you're going to be doing a range of different things with it. Yeah, absolutely. So, so Bitcoin yield, as Michael Saylor has defined it, is you buy some MSTR and you rely on them to grow the number of Bitcoin that you have access to through your shares on, on a
fully diluted basis. So, so you're hoping Bitcoin goes up and, and you're expecting that you're going to get more and more Bitcoin for for each share that you own. So we'll certainly do that, but staking, restaking defy at prudent risk levels, we will add ether yields to this other form of yields that they've defined. So it's a productive asset in that sense. It's also productive because people use it to power applications and store data on
the Etherium network. At some point, some points in in our evolution when there's a lot of activity on the ether network, it turns into an ultrasound asset where we're burning it and deflating the monetary supply. So. No, I think that's super interesting. I mean, that's kind of how I was hoping even say that would go down the route of like actually owning a yield in the Bitcoin, but it hasn't really happened. With any of these companies, yeah.
But he he's very clear and strict about saying something and doing it. He wants to be extremely reliable for his investors. And so when he says these things are going to be in cold storage, I'm never moving them. I'm just going to keep accumulating. I believe it. I don't think he's fancy. How many chairs do you sit on, Joe? How many chairs? I'm sitting on one chair right now. I love that. I love one chair, one chair that that has always, that has in.
Historically, this is my this is my chair. There you go, I love it. I love it. Then I know Tyler's got some questions. I'll say my second question would just be like, why do you think it's taken this for people to start to get E like you could invest in a vehicle like this. You can invest in an ETH based fund, right? Like, but it seems like this has been the best way to do it. Like almost take over the
strategy of an existing stock. It's some sort of public listed equity and be like, right, we're going to we're going to now do this. Like, why is this been the thing that's really unlocked Wall Street, you think? So first I mentioned earlier that I feel like we're now at our our broadband moment in the Etherium ecosystem. And what I mean by that is more about the functionality of the
network. So we with the roll up centric road map, which is going incredibly well, we've enabled us to grow horizontally and vertically in terms of scalability. So infinite scalability like the Internet, you can just add new new layer 2 networks. So we can take that new ZKEVM technology, we can enshrine it in into layer one and, and beat things up that way. We're affordable, lots of block space for now. The internet's a really big place.
So, so when we start migrating all of web 2 to to web three, we're going to need lots more block space. But it, it's quite affordable right now. Things are pretty usable. They're they're going to get delightfully usable when we have a is in our wallets and and in user interfaces and and in the United States of America. It was it was dangerous to hold tokens. Your GC wouldn't allow you to hold tokens.
Your GC certainly would have laughed you out of the room if you suggested that you issue a token. If you're a normal enterprise, Oregon traditional financial institution, if you're a brilliant application developer, it was kind of crazy to decide to build in our ecosystem in the United States of America until essentially the chair Gensler was effectively removed from gaslighting our industry and and trying to kill slow or or Co opt our industry.
But now we have all those structural things handled so that people can start building applications for for end user consumers for end user enterprises. So, so that's on. And more directly to your question, again, it's about identifying a strategy that captures Wall Street interests that that sounds sort of cool and edgy and and enormously profitable. And so that that's when the the financial geeks get interested. If they get interested, it, it starts to take on a buzz.
How do you think, how do you think about the messaging to the Wall Street crowd versus perhaps more of a crowd? Like are you changing some of your emphasis points? I'm curious how you how you think about that as you're about to go on a road tour. Well, I, I like to talk about Ethereum and the financial stuff is very interesting as well, but it's really the capabilities of Ethereum that drives all of
this. The Internet a long time ago came along and it changed information, changed the travel industry, it changed the journalism industry. So many different industries were scaled by digital transformation. Pretty much 1 industry managed to avoid that. There there's been very little innovation in the financial services industry.
So they, they put some, some websites in front of their, their terrible account structures and they innovative on some financial instruments that they used to exploit lots of people. But but really the financial industry has not seen the same kind of transformation that the the Internet brought to so many different industries. But that's on now there's structural fatigue in the
financial system. It's breaking, you know, we're we're at the end of a super cycle effectively and the excesses of the financial industry, the financialization of America, the hauling out of of the middle class in America is leading us all to essentially the end of this super cycle. And and a Strauss and how sense and we are decentralized protocols are the answer to bringing forth a new global financial system. There is no global financial
system right now. It's a, it's a whole bunch of solid financial systems Scotch taped together via correspondent banking relationships. And and now we have this thing that that some people put together a decade or so ago in terms of Bitcoin etcetera. And now it's a a global real time hyper connected financial system with programmable money, programmable financial instruments where where anybody can actually build something and deploy it and and use it, total
transformation. I think it's an easy pitch for those who understand the the vision and the mission and maybe drilling into Ethereum and the Ethereum Foundation. We had some big news yesterday with the announcement of the protocol initiative and now this new refocus on scaling the L ones, the L twos and user experience. Curious for your reactions to that and perhaps like the timing of you spinning up the the Sharp Link vessel alongside this recent pivot from the Ethereum Foundation.
It seems to. So it's a recent pivot in the sense that the people became aware of it, but things have been in process for for around a year. There was a lot of malaise in our ecosystem. Bitcoin was doing great because it has a clear value proposition and a clear message. Solana was doing great because Sam destroyed the protocol, crashed the price down to what 9
bucks or something like that. And then it found this meta that it leaned into and you know, so mean coins are are very cool innovation, but which is a lot of disturbing stuff that that went on around meme coins. So in in a theorem as well, but but that at a smaller scale. So they wrote that up nicely and the theorem in the middle child was sitting there no planning for the future. We we're trying to do all the, all the things right and build epic infrastructure for our
broadband moment. And so ether price goes down and there were the follows price. So everybody was slightly later Ether bags starts pointing at everybody else and saying you suck, this is your fault etcetera. But really things were going great in the Etherium ecosystem. We we took this ZKEVA technology that we been pioneering at layer 2 and we're now bringing it into layer one consensus hopes to participate in that. We're really excited about that direction. So layer one, we'll get really
beefy. We'll have lots of blobs. Layer twos will be incredibly important. I actually think that they will be important for scalability, but I think they'll be more important for diversity of the different kinds of databases that that sit on top of layer 1. You know, all the layer twos are essentially databases with, with functionality and, and in terms of the political constructs.
So we're talking to major sovereign wealth funds and banks in a particular country who are interested in how do we build infrastructure in the Etherium ecosystem. So I'm like, and they're thinking, OK, we got to build our own. Wow. Etherium because we're worried that the Americans might control the Etherium network. And I said that's not a problem,
that's not going to happen. But still you probably want to build some of your infrastructure at the Etherium layer one and you probably want your own constructed layer 2 so you can have a nation state layer 2 and then all the different political subdivisions. So I think that's how our ecosystem is going to evolve with Layer 2 as being a an organizational construct. So there's a sovereign country looking into doing. Something like that. There's a very big, big country.
Yeah, exactly. Mando, are you hearing this? Hearing this? Mando's been bull bull posting, bull talking Ethereum Joe on this show. Awesome. 30 minutes per day out of the hour we have. So, so music is it so? I think there's been some very concrete changes. I think some of the stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And let me answer. Let me answer your question. So I think organically everybody's feeling a lot better about stuff. The changes that were announced in the EF have been wonderful,
the access, the proactivity. So I, I've had discussions with leadership and, and I'm so excited with, with what the EF is doing. Frankly, I was, I was pretty comfortable that the EF has been doing great things all along. I do think that I'm more proactive. Posture by the EF is valuable. I think it's the right time for that. But I think the EF has done a
great job for a very long time. And, you know, all along we've been building and we just keep going and the world is catching up to us. Yeah. I think, I think the main thing that's got me more bullish is, is this I, I think you, I mean Salon has had a great cycle in terms of activity. You can't really deny that it's really, really did lead, lead in terms of that for a for a long
period of the cycle. What got me what I, I think it's got me more more bullish has been firstly, just like the changes around how we're going to view the layer one for fees. I quite liked the ultrasound narrative. I thought was a very strong one for Ethan. It's kind of drifted away, but looks like it might come back. And if I look at the top block chains out there, activity is only one real measure of success, like Bitcoin.
Bitcoin doesn't have as much activity as most of the others, It's really just a store of value. XRP seemingly have a crazy high valuation, doesn't really have much going on there. Best marketing project in the history of the world. I actually think the value of of a cryptocurrency is often down to that store of value or like it being seen as, yeah, just like a productive asset.
Like you just said. I think the ETH, even if it doesn't capture all the activity and that moves to the L ones, if it can recapture that, this is a really good store of value, which can still be productive. I think that is where it can become very strong. And I think the changes to the EF have really just been the icing on the cake where I felt like, OK, this has now shifted and it's been beaten down for a long time and now it's got the narrative back.
But you can feel it if it's got the narrative back. And I think now it can hopefully use that because it has all the trad fire rails. What you just did, you're going to be the first of many, right? You must know there must be about 10 other companies. Now the reason why you want to do it so quick is because everyone's seen what just happened to the shop in stock and go like, right, we're going
to do the same thing. And ETH is probably the best asset to do it with given the rails that it has. So it feels as though there could be now this institution. Like and exactly. And while everybody was taking shots at at Ethereum, it was still by far the biggest ecosystem out there. It still had the bulk of the real world assets, the bulk of the stable coins. It has not all of D5, but a giant proportion of D5.
So I would say that the Bitcoin Maxis are really good at talking shit and the Solana Maxis are professionalizing that as well. And. And the Ethereum people are really good at keeping heads down and building because there's a lot that we need to do now. There isn't a lot that the Bitcoin people need to do. They, their protocol. I, I love Bitcoin. I was a Bitcoiner in early 2011. I'm still a bitcoiner. The Bitcoin protocol is finished and perfect, So what do they
have to do? Well then said they did ruins and ordinals, but that's another conversation, Tyler. Ordinals are cool, yeah. Go. Ahead, Joey, we we run this as a market show as well. I'm curious for your thoughts on the market as someone who's, you know, I'm thinking out of years, decades I'm sure, but I'm kind of curious for your thoughts on the broader crypto market outlook on then like a one year horizon as well as a four to
five year horizon here. You mentioned the structural change, the deep structural changes earlier on in our convo he's carried they elaborate on some of that. Yeah, So it's probably dangerous to listen to an eternal optimist like me, but I, I think we're moving into a period where as we we discussed already, the mainstream culture, Wall Street, all the Wall Street's around the world are are going to have to take notice the existing economy is being reformatted.
I do believe that the United States had to make some changes because a long time ago the United States ended up being the sole superpower and it was a a kinder period where the US helped lots of countries we rebuild themselves. The US was very comfortable allowing tariffs in lots of different countries, essentially paying for the rebuilding.
US for strategic reasons made itself world police, established NATO, paid for the bulk of NATO, policed the seas to keep the trade inexpensive via naval transportation and some countries took advantage of that. One country in particular took extreme advantage of that and and has been at war with the you know, China's been at war with the United States pretty much declared for a long time doing
some disturbing things. And we need a good healthy relationship with China and every other nation and it and it should be balanced. So the US, we are moving into a multi polar world and and we need healthy trade relationships and if the US is going to continue to protect certain things that should probably get paid some of the costs. And so with that in the background, we're going to see massive change. We are seeing massive change.
And in a multi polar world, you probably want a credibly neutral platform on which to execute transactions, guaranteed transactions to maintain relationships. If you if you enter into a treaty currently it's really easy to just break those things. They're they're not really worth much if you enter into a treaty on the Ethereum blockchain and you put many billions of dollars at stake and maybe there's a maybe there's utility in the United Nations.
Maybe the United Nations can help adjudicate when when there are conflicts with respect to a smart contract. So if, if there's a strategic arms limitation smart contract that both parties put a whole lot of money into it and one party breaks that agreement, then they should be slashed massively. So we, we now have the financial means to to do interesting and healthier geopolitical things. So anyway, total transformation, that's probably going to be
really good for the economy. I believe we're at the end of a super cycle. I believe we're at the start of a new super cycle with the new promise, a new system of the world, new social contracts. And that's going to be really good for for anybody who's coming into the world now or maybe 10 years from now, because they'll probably be rocky for a little while. Do you think?
Yeah, go ahead. I was going to ask him maybe a slightly controversial question, but like there was a lot of talk maybe in our cycle, which was that, you know, E could could kind of maybe even overtake Bitcoin with this like this productive asset capability. Do you still have that that belief? Do you still think E has got a better proposition potentially to the world here in terms of
value creation? Yeah. So I think of Bitcoin as gold 2.0. I think it will probably have that use case probably for a long time. It seems to be a strong enough religion at this point so that it'll stick. Ether is somewhere between the world, computer, electricity, energy, oil or what I what I really like is ether being seen as the most valuable trust commodity on the planet. So information's a commodity. They're different, different kinds of of promises that can be treated as a commodity,
assurances, agreements. We don't really think of trust currently as a commodity, but if you think about the levels of trust that you need to add to certain situations to make them more valuable, you could probably come up with a grading system for different kinds of trust. Satoshi Nakamoto invented this most profound thing, decentralized trust, the the highest grade trust in the world, especially if it's on a radically decentralized network.
And there's no better trust network than a theorem. It can guarantee execution of transactions. And I think of ether now as as the gold standard in trust or highest octane trust, etcetera. So will that be more valuable than Bitcoin? Seems very likely. Maybe, yeah, maybe in a that could be, that could be very valuable. I love that. That's a great question, Mando. Joy, if you have 5 more minutes.
I think Tyler is just another question on the Metamask front and some of the cool stuff you guys have been up to. Would be great to get some of your takes on Metamask and stuff going on Linnea, but go ahead, Tyler. Yeah, I found a notable the Ethereum Foundation refocusing on user experience and I think Metamask has been doing the same. Yesterday we had the the announcement the acquisition of of Web 3 auth.
I'm just kind of curious to hear from you about the why that was strategic kind of what the the focus is right now with Metamask. Yeah, so they're awesome that they've built some great technology. So it's it's instant onboarding. It's it's ways of recovering your account if you lose your secret recovery phrase. They have thousands of of different projects using their embedded wallet system. So we see it as top of funnel that the millions of users in those thousands of projects.
We see it as top of funnel with all these different projects that can, you know, instantly put together a quickly skinned wallet. And then we'll just set up a Mycelio network underground that enables, if you've got a few of these wallets, you can connect them into your meta mask or, or if you just want a longer term durable, more secure relationship, then easy on boarding from from one of these embedded wallets to to your meta mask. So there's that's the end user perspective.
We're building a an increasingly capable developer stack. So they'll be a big part of that as well. I'm curious as well how you're contemplating with the AI agent revolution or are you, are you contemplating how Metamask will integrate with perhaps agents? And then Part 2, is Ethereum going to be the home? There's a lot of. Yeah. So we're, we're exploring AI from so many different perspectives.
In particular, we do believe that you should be typing to or talking to your Metamask. The Internet is already too hard for us to use. It's exploitative and nobody has the time to read terms and conditions. So we just click through stuff and we get regularly abused by big tech and, and just the business model of the Internet is, is adversarial pretty much. So how are we all going to deal with this even more complicated version of the Internet? Smart contracts. Who's going to read smart
contracts? Who's going to read proposals and Dows? So they can vote on that. It's kind of unreasonable. But if you have a digital twin AI ally, an agent that coordinates your activities, it'll know what you care about. You can delegate tasks, you can delegate voting permissions, you can give it allowances and it can essentially do your bidding on the Internet.
If if you wanted to explain AD 5 protocol, if you wanted to explain what the latest proposal in this Dow means and what it thinks you should vote, then then it'll do that. So we, we finally have a powerful interface that we trust and we're going to need to own these things. We, we really don't want a tech to own our interfaces that know everything about us to, to web 3. So if we own these things, we can train them. They'll be so first, first we will sort of be their parents in
a sense, training them. Then they will be our mentors and life partners. And so a very, very long running intimate relationship and it in terms of where they sit. So they're going to get they're going to get smaller and smaller. I believe there will be large language models, foundational models in lots of different societies that understand sub teas and language and culture. I think that's going to be important to different nation
states. But then there will be just giant swarms of mixture of experts, agents that that do lots of things. I think we'll have a controller that that manages all of that and you probably want it on your own hardware somehow there. There will probably be blockchain systems that are fast enough and big enough, decentralized storage systems that can house some of those things. So that's a it's a big technological step, but we definitely have to get away from
centralization in the AI space. If the big tech is able to win this, then we're all in a lot of trouble. Makes a lot of sense. Appreciate all your thoughts. You're muted. Sorry here you go sorry. I know you got a busy schedule Joe listen popular request question here. I have to ask for the people you know when are we going to see a a Joe Lubin crypto punk? You know you're. Who Who's paying you? Who's paying you to bug me about punk? Not enough. I I I know who's paying you.
Node Foundation. Hello, Node Foundation. You know, I'm a I'm a good advocate. I'm. A they they are awesome. I'm a big fan of the Node Foundation and I have regular conversations with those people, so who knows. I'm seeing Benny tonight and and he I know he's going to ask me if I ask you and he had he told me to ask you about the mask you I will, I will. I know you bought a mask as well with from from Sprite that you're involved in the NFT ecosystem. So you know, it's, it's good to
see some love on the NFT side. OK, I know it's the 2021 thing. But we still need my my issue. My issue is that I want if I'm going to do a PFPII want something unique, something that I'm going to feel good about for a long time. So. All right, you heard it here. Everyone start selling your one of ones to Joe Lubin. Not too hard, not too hard, Joe. Last question is what's one thing you're most excited about? I guess, I guess that's on.
I think we're we're finally crossing the chasm into the mainstream financial system, mainstream economy, mainstream culture. I am at a party in Las Vegas Bitcoin conference and Scottie Pippen shows up. We chat. He's he's taking pictures with lots of crypto people. So we we may have arrived. There you go. We may have arrived. Joe Lubin, thank you very much for coming on the Sunday.
It's a it's a pleasure. Appreciate it all right, all right well, that was a lot of fun guys, great interview. We got some oops see Amanda and Amanda had to go. We got we got some some good alpha out of this one Tyler. I think that was a successful interview. So with that. I'm bold up. I can say that. I'm, I'm, I'm rethinking my my 30% portfolio allocation. It's yeah, market's pumping while Joe's talking. He loved that. Oh yeah, he's. Ripping on the back of all of
his words. We need to clip that part where he said a sovereign state is looking the bill on chain on Ethereum and we could get the first sovereign state L2. There's no way this has been said before. Like I think we got Omar, we got to get clipping ASAP. We got to repost this entire interview. That was some great Tomorrow we'll probably have some time to to to recap and and and go over this interview, which was really, really awesome. I'm glad and the market's doing
well right now. So you obviously love to say all right, well, Tyler, that was a good one. Good work. Love that you know, Mandel also got involved Here was a great interview with that with that with that. We'll see y'all tomorrow morning, same time, same place, 10 AM Eastern Standard Time for the episode of FOMO Hour on our radio. Let's go.