Ep. 394: Do I Need a Better Planning System?

Okay, so I have a question for you. How do you figure out what to do with your time during any given day? Now, I think this question matters more now than it ever has before, because if you don't have a good answer to it, if you just sort of wing it. as your day unfolds. Guess what forces are going to take control of your intention?

Email, Slack, social media, online chatter, YouTube, streaming services. This is a show about finding depth in a distracted world and to succeed in this goal you need a good planning system. But how do you create a system that's not only going to work? But it's something you're gonna stick with over time. This is what I want to talk to you about today. And I have an expert that's gonna join me to help us in this conversation. Her name is Sarah Hart Unger. She's a a doctor and a mother.

Uh and also a planning aficionado. She's the host of the Best Laid Plans podcast, on which I've been a guest. Um and in December she published a book with that same name that had the subtitle A Simple Planning System for Living a Life That You Love. Amazon selected it as one of the best nonfiction books of the month. So I invited Sarah on. To get into the nitty gritty details of how to build a useful

and realistic planning system. She even helps me figure out solutions to some problems I've been having with my own system. So there's some changes I make after talking to her. Uh she also makes a case for why she only uses analog tools, which I think is interesting. I'm not quite sold on that, but I think it's an interesting case. So anyways, this is a deeply practical discussion and one that I think is absolutely vital to our mission here on this show.

So let's get into it. As always, I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions, the show for people seeking depth in a distracted world. And we'll get started right after the music.

All right, hey Sarah, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited to be back. Of course. I mean I'm excited about your book. And I'm excited to get into the weeds on planning. I have a whole list here of practical things I want to learn from you. I want to talk about like what makes a good planning system good. How do you keep systems sustainable over the long run? Digital versus analog, family versus personal versus work.

Tasks and planning and how that differs. I I actually saw a lot of connections between your new book and slow productivity, so I want to get into that as well. So we're gonna walk away from here with like lots of ideas about how to get your life Under control, but I want to start by just motivating this entire conversation for my audience. Like, why is planning important? We need to ask that question.

Why is it being talked about like why do I care about it on this show, which is largely about fighting back against digital distractions? I actually think that it's uh really well connected. So I'm gonna give you my take for why I think planning is important, Sarah, and then I'm gonna ask you to sort of give your the way you think about it, right? So fr from what I noticed is there was a period I really kick it off around two thousand nineteen uh with Ginny Odell

who brought a sort of anti neoliberalism, anti capitalism critique to the world of things like planning and productivity and the sort of related topics. And essentially the the anti neoliberal critique was To care too much about planning. is to uh commoditize time.

to to think about your efforts as things that can be turned into productive value. And the sort of ideal anti productivity vision that was being pushed, starting with Odell and then lots of commentators during the pandemic was really what you should be doing is just in an unstructured way

walking through fields and watching birds and uncommodifying your life. And that this was the tension between commodifying your time and watching birds in a park in San Francisco. And this was sort of the setup. That never rang true for me. Uh, you know, like you, I have three kids, I have seven jobs, like there's a lot going on. And to me, the opposite of having a planning system is not

walking through the fields and enjoying birds, it's chaos, it's stress, it's anxiety. And and this is how I connect it back to my program here on this show, it puts you into exactly the state where the digital overlords can dominate. Because when you are overwhelmed and reactive and don't know what's going on. Guess what suddenly becomes really appealing? Well, let me just pull up the phone. Or let me just fall back onto like email and just sort of shoot messages back and forth.

Uh let me s zone out to a streamer because it's gonna numb out the anxiety I feel. So I I I thought of planning as a key step towards a deeper life, not as something that was getting in the way of a deeper life. And there was this sort of clash that was happening. All right. So that's my soapbox speech. But you've been working on this pr this topic so practically for years with your podcast and now with your book and with your blog. Why do you think about planning as being important?

Yeah well first I guess it's super interesting to bring back to that like Jenny Odell kind of movement because I do think people get stuck in thinking about planning as having to be married to productivity. Meaning, if I want to plan, it means then I'm trying to cram in as many quote productive things as possible and capitalism, you know, the wheels spinning, etcetera. But that to me is such a unfair way to characterize planning because to me planning is so much more about

thinking ahead of time about what you want to do in your life and then making sure that you have things lined up so that you can do those things. And for me, if I were to want to go bird watching in a San Francisco park, let me tell you what I'd have to do. I would have to do a lot of planning to make sure that that could be accommodated in my life without, you know, having a kid not get picked up from an activity or not pay the bills or whatever it is. So I guess

That kind of goes along with what you're saying as well, which is that those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. They the free time, the intentional leisure and the planning. And in fact, I think if if anything, for mo many people, depending on their stage of life, the planning piece is actually required in order to make the best use or

I don't know, the use that fits aligns most with what they really want to do with their time. And so that is what has driven my passion about planning. It's not about turning out more widgets. you know, earning more money necessarily, but it's about fitting in the things that you want to do in this one life that we all have. You know, I'm also a huge fan of sort of the mortality focused literature, the sort of Albert Berkman, Jodie Wellman type stuff.

Um, and that just for me lights a fire around planning, which to me also has sort of two prongs to it in a way. One is about

Making sure we're not just going on autopilot and making sure that we are fitting in the things that we want to do. And the other side is making sure we're not getting overwhelmed by little tasks coming at us trying to kind of take a bite into our lives and By making sure you're managing all those tasks and making sure you're purposefully adding in the things you want, then hopefully you get to do more things you want to do.

I don't know, bird watch in a San Francisco park. Well let me give you uh an analysis I'm gonna uh not psychoanalyze, but I'm gonna analyze you and then you're gonna tell me if I have this right because I have this theory about

partially why you're you personally are in a very good situation to be leading people through these topics. Um and I I think it it I don't really understand your profession. You're a pediatric endocrinologist, right? Clinical doctor. Yes. But I think it's important that you're a clinical physician, because my understanding and in some sense that's

That's a very demanding job, but it's also very structured, right? You have this sort of uh cadence of appointments that's like probably pretty standardized in your practice. Whereas a lot of people and maybe in the Jinni Odell camp and people in my world, you're often in like a a more vague knowledge work environment.

Where there is this sort of which I this is where I get the Odell critique, there is this sort of sense of like an endless knob of productivity that you can turn that seems tied to like busyness and how many hours you're willing to work outside of work.

And there's like a rightful, you know, negative association that people in like an email based office job start to build where they're like, All right, enough of this productivity talk because my boss just wants me to do emails till midnight and like enough is enough. Did it matter that your job had enough structure that

You you could stand aside a little bit from some of the maladaptive stuff that was happening in certain knowledge work jobs. It was, I think, smoke screening, the importance of organization and planning, because it was sort of like an orthogonal issue that also needed to be solved.

Am I getting medicine right there or am I just romantic? I've I've personally experienced both sides'cause I've had more like leadership type roles where the emails are like rolling in and the meetings and everything's a little bit more you know, kind of like a world without email, but the opposite of that kind of. But then yes, the rest of my job has been very, very structured. And you are right, a lot of my passion was born out of a time period when almost all of

Not all, but like a very large fraction of my hours were very much accounted for by others. Like it was during my residency training where we had caps at eighty hours per week that we could be at the hospital. But other than that, you know, our time was not really our own. and it made sense to be incredibly attentional with the hours that were left and I guess that is where a lot of my passion around planning was born. Um

But you're right that my current life is is much more around that. Much of my time is fairly structured and that is one of the things I love about my clinical job is that I can go in, see my patients, write my notes and kinda feel like I did everything for the day. Is it true you had your first kids when you were still this overlapped residency? My first kid was during fellowship. So that's the sub specialty training after residency. Can I ask you a a brief

Unrelated question that is related to the pit on HBO. I love the pit. You can ask me anything about the pit. My husband and I, because he's a vascular surgeon, we like sit there and analyze every episode um for correctness and maybe misinformation. Vascular surgeons think that they should be bringing they're doing too many things in the E D that they should be bringing consults in. That's what I heard. It's like, No, you can't don't mess with that nerve in the hand. You've got to bring down

Uh okay, but here's here's a question on behalf of my whole audience, more important than anything else we're gonna talk about. Can you please distinguish between third year medical student, intern, like pre residency, first I cannot my sister's a uh attending, you know, E ER doctor and I still don't understand. Can you just g what is the order of things that happened? Then we'll get back to Platy, but I gotta understand this. I don't understand which character is what when.

Well, I'm trying to remember like who's a third year and who's a fourth year. Like Javadi, is she a is she a fourth year maybe? So in med school you usually do your core rotations. So that's the very first year in the clinic, your third year of med school. And then the fourth year is more like sub specialty rotations. I don't feel like the pit does a great job of

Saying who's a third year and who's a fourth year. Is that intern yet or not? Fourth year is the first thing that's it is fourth year the same as intern or is that post fourth year? So medical school has four years. I didn't know that. Then begins your intern year, which is also known as the first residency year. And most residencies well the ER residency is actually four years long. So um

Sometimes it's totally unclear, but we know Santos is R too'cause I keep saying it over and over again. Yes. And the the really young doctor in the first season I think was third year or fourth year. Maybe like a fourth year. Okay. And then when do you get called doctor? You get called doctor when you begin your residency. So after med school. Before that I used to use like an archaic student doctor. Yeah. Heart hunger or whatever. But yeah.

Interesting. All right. Well we we now we got the important stuff covered. We can get back to the easy stuff like trying to manage life in this chaotic world. Um all right, so let's let's go back then. Uh you've Been thinking about uh planning an organization for a long time. You've had your podcast, your blog, and your book. I think I have that order not quite right, probably blog podcast.

That is correct. How today do you think about the elements that have to go into a successful planning system. So in my opinion, and I know it might differ a little bit from how you talk about it, but I feel like there are three big ones. The first one is a calendar that's completely functional and shows everything. And in my book I refer to that as like one master calendar. And that can be

It sounds so straightforward, like of course I have a calendar, but a lot of people are actually consulting multiple places, even on a day to day level, to actually figure out where they're supposed to be. So master calendar is number one. Number two is a really robust.

task management system. I've coined the term airtight task management because I want to communicate that like you know exactly what's coming in, where to look for it, how often to look for it, and where to put it so that you know you will see it. And to me that's the part where you're sort of preventing the moth eating like things coming at you from really um getting too much of your time and attention and, you know, putting the tasks in their place where they belong.

And then finally you need a fantastic and robust goal setting system. Um, you talk about yours in like a multi level scale planning and I have a very similar version of that called nested goals. It has a couple more levels than yours has'cause I I love a month I love the monthly level, which you don't really talk about. Um but similarly, you know, you're planning every year and then every season you're looking at that yearly plan, every month you're looking at that seasonal plan.

Every week you're looking at your monthly plan, and every day you're looking at your weekly plan, and that sounds so much more involved as it than it actually kind of is in practice. But by doing that and having like a really Clear cut purposeful ritual at each of those time points.

you know that you're going to be integrating kind of the urgent and what you need to do on a given day or week with the kind of higher level goals that you've set um in more thoughtful planning sessions. Right. So I th this is fascinating. I think this is a A key distinction I s I struggle to communicate this sometimes as well, is that there's

There's these different elements that all go under the the umbrella of planning. Uh you have the whole sort of information organizational aspect of it, and then you have the sort of time control aspect of it, which you're calling like goal setting system. Um and I think often people will zoom in on just one piece.

could be the like I I have a planner a planner called a time block planner, but it's not a planning system. It's like one piece, like in your terminology, it's like one of multiple pieces that goes into a goal setting system that itself could be lar part of a larger planning universe. But there's people who say I bought my time block planner. Um so Can I organize my whole life with this thing? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. That's like you just you bought an exercise band.

That's probably a good thing to use as part of a large health and fitness routine, but just having that exercise ban is not the it's not the whole thing.

Um, okay, so I wanna go through let's go through these in this order because I think it actually I think calendar to task ma airtight task management with a goal setting system is Easiest to hardest, or simplest to most complex. I I feel like things get more and more complex as we move down. Um all right, so master calendar, when you say shares everything, so you're talking about

Professional, personal, family, we need everything in one place. Are you a digital person? Are you a Google Calendar where you could have like multiple different calendars that you turn off and on? You're gonna be like shocked, and everyone is always shocked, but I'm largely paper-based. Um, I have three kids.

I also have like five not five jobs, but maybe maybe three jobs if you count like the podcast as one and then all my other media stuff and then my physician job, which is three days a week. I do work part time as of now on my clinical side. Um, but for me I'm able to actually have my master I have it right next to me. My master be paper. Meaning, okay, it's every detail of every little thing

In here. No. Meaning there are blocks in here. This is not going to show up, but where it just says patience. And I can't like see exactly what the patients are that I'm gonna see'cause first of all that would not be HIPAA compliant. And second of all that would be, you know, way too much to put on paper anyway. But I know that when I go to work, I'm gonna log into our electronic health, you know, system and see exactly which patients I have to see.

But still this is enough for me to know this is where I have to be on any given day. And on my, you know, kids level, I have a whole section on the bottom that talk about like where the drop offs and pickups are. Um wait, what do you mean by section on the bottom? This is outside of the flow of time. It's like at the bottom you have like kind of like a to do list for like listing out drop off pickup times.

That's a choice that I've made, but I do use a vertical planner so I can see pretty much everything kind of like scale to time, just like you would pull up in Outlook or Google Calendar. But because I don't always do all the driving, um, you know, I'm like I have we have a nanny, I have my husband, I drive, I have three kids, they're going in different directions.

I kinda like to still know where all the kids are so I kinda put a robe beneath there where I put all the comings and goings of gymnastics and basketball and dance and all that. So it'll be like drop off at three thirty, pick up at so just like listing it. Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. We we've taken to so we we're Google Calendar people.

um my wife and I uh because then then I have my work calendar so she can see and I can see what she's doing. But we put the kids uh like family stuff. We put those as those are like appointments on there as well. And we'll we'll we'll try to span the time the driving actually takes. Mm-hmm. So like that half hour will be now a reality of this calendar is there's a

ton of overlap stuff happening because now everything is on the same screen. So you know, in Google Calendar things that intersect time wise overlap. So there's a lot of But at least you can you can hide, right? Like so you can decide to only look at your bar.

Yeah. No, and I'm not against digital whatsoever, but you did ask what I use personally. I think both are fantastic. I just sometimes people write off paper kind of thinking like, Well, if your life is, you know, complicated, there's no way that will work and like I've been making it work for for a really long time. I do a very small writing.

And I enjoy using paper. So if that does not apply to you, I a hundred percent say embrace a digital solution. When my kids get a little bit older as well and You know, right now I kinda have one using um digital, but my two younger ones not so much, but I could imagine us migrating when it makes more sense for everybody. So is it day per page, five days per page? Like how big are these columns?

So the my calendar exists on the weekly pages, it's like kinda can see on the video of a Hobonichi cousin planner, which is A five size. So each column is like Little more than an inch wide. Um, but it has a very small grid lines and it goes all the way from, you know, midnight to to midnight. So you can see a whole week. You can see an entire week at a glance. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. And then how much are you putting non uh

non appointment things on there. In other words, and and when are you putting those things on there? So things that are not Um, you know, I need to be here, there's a meeting, there's an appointment, I'm seeing patients doing these areas, but optional uh tasks that you're adding just kinda keep track of what you're doing with your time. Is that And now we're bleeding into task management? And goal setting probably as well, right? It's just probably touches on everything.

People love to like fixate on like, well, is it all in one tool or is it not? And in my case it is, but I do think like this is an important time to step back and like realize they're st it's still performing different functions for me. Um and there's no reason it has to be all in one tool. But for me, I do actually do most of my pretty much all of my shorter term task management on paper as well. So I have two places. Well, we're kind of skipping ahead to task management, but

When you are deciding where to put a task, you want to put it in a place that it makes sense that you're gonna see it at the right time. You can either assign it to a very specific time, like you can literally calendar it in, you can assign it to a day, and you can do all these things digitally as well.

Or you could assign it to a week. That's a little bit harder to do digitally, but you can you can find some workarounds. And so for me Many of my like day to day tasks and I I use the word task instead of goal here'cause I often talk about kind of goals turning into tasks around the weekly level. Um, but I have a Mars like a the eighth column on the left hand side has a lot of tasks that I want to do for the week.

If I have a task that I come across that isn't that urgent, then I might assign it to a future week. So well, next week doesn't have anything, but the week after that has a couple of tasks. Or I may actually stick a task up at the top of a day if I don't have a specific time slot for it, but I want to assign it to a specific day. And what I do with this is so arbitrary. Like you have

can do the exact same thing in Apple Notes or Todoist or Todo or things. Like the actual place, the vessel where you're holding these things is going to be unique to what your style is and how often you like to use devices versus paper, et cetera. The important thing is defining for yourself where these holders are. Where do you put tasks that you want to see for the week, but you don't want to, you know, assign to a specific day.

Where do you put a tas that you know you're gonna see at the beginning of each day? And where do you maybe put a longer-term task that you don't want in your face for a given week, but you know you're gonna wanna see later? Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. As listeners of the show know, I'm not a huge fan of huge overhype pronouncements about AI. I'm much more interested in the specific applications of this technology to specific tasks.

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So if you're interested, go to calderalab dot com slash deep and use the code deep for twenty percent off your first order. All right, Jesse, let's get back to the show. Well, okay, so let's move on to airtight task management. Um, so the word airtight here, I this is a reference to like a David Allen style

Full capture. Don't not in your head and not somewhere where you're gonna forget that it exists. Correct. And I make a big emphasis on making sure that you are very aware of where tasks come at you because it's usually for most of us not just one place.

You might have text messages, your WhatsApp chat, your email, your work email, and your personal email, people that just like stop you on the street and tell you they want to do XYZ. And you need to have a really thoughtful way to make sure that each of these Pathways has a pipeline that like makes sense, like you're checking them enough.

but not necessarily all the time. And I actually kinda teach people that every given box that you might receive a task in might have its own cadence that makes sense. So maybe you look at the sports team app twice a week, but you only look at your email

um three times a day or something like that. Like I'm making that up. And then to be very clear about once those tasks come in, where are they going so that you are not going to lose track of them and you see them at the right time. Sometimes the answer is to just do the task. You know, something comes at you that's

One minute or less, you just get it done. Um, but then a lot of the times the answer is to put it into whatever system you're using for task management so that you see it at the right time. Okay, and so you're vessel agnostic, but the idea is you have a singular vessel that when you check these various pipelines

uh stores the tasks. And then there's a separate sort of system or cadence for taking it out of that vessel and getting it onto your weekly plan, your daily plan. Is is that more or less right? Yes. there's not really like an extra step there. Like if the vessel is your text messages

um and someone sends you a task there, it's not like it's going to some holding place. You would you would then, you know, let's say you make sure that at the part of your processing, and I know you talk about processing at the end of every day, either with a TXT file or however they're doing it, but

As you're processing the end of each day, you take any text message that's left, you leave it unread if it's something you have to handle, and you put it straight into whatever tool that you are going to use, whether that is, again, the to-doist app, your planner, whatever, whatever it is. And Being very careful about once you've chosen where these tasks are living

You cannot be swapping around and using multiple storage vessels. You've got to be like, this is my one place. Yeah. And you have to have rituals that include looking at that place. And again, that seems kind of obvious.

But I get a lot of people they're like, Well, I put some place some stuff on my monthly and some on my week. I was like, Well, when are you looking at those pages? Right. You want it to be somewhere that you're going to be checking at the appropriate cadence so you know you're gonna see it. All right, so what do you use right now?

Yeah. So right now, um, I do a few things. So if something comes at me like randomly throughout the day, I do exactly what I just said, which is that I will text myself or email myself and leave it unread. And one of the things I do at the end of every single day before as I'm shutting down is to make sure that those anything that's left unread is captured.

Um I do that with WhatsApp as well. Like if I get something from school and I'm like, Oh, I need to deal with that. That needs to go into my system, that gets left unread and that inbox gets checked by the end of the day. messages. Text or WhatsApp messages. Okay. So that's what that's going to be during your processing step what you're looking for. So if you if you think up something

Just, you know, ex Nilo, like, oh God, I forgot. I need to like start planning for X. You might send yourself an email. Yes. So that it'll be there on read. And I'm leaving it unread because it means it hasn't been processed. Okay. So then when you process you process when into the day? End of the day. No unread WhatsApp messages and no unread emails. So what are you? It doesn't mean I've like archived them or dealt with them, but they are they're not black.

So then what are the I don't even know how you can you send yourself text I'm so tech bad. Can you send yourself text? I don't know, you swipe over and you click the thing so it so it shows that it's unread. My fingers know how to do it. My bra my brain can't just some sequence of things I do all day long, which I can't actually tell you what it is.

Um okay, so then what are the options then? So I this is fascinating to me. I I I like into the the nitty-gritty here. Um at the end of the day, you're processing what are the options for

what happens to the information in like one of these unread emails or text messages. Yeah. So that is where this like where my task management system comes into play, which again, tool agnostic, but I largely use my planner. So I'm either assigning it to like this week, if I need to get it done this week, I'm assigning it to a future week, or I'm giving it a specific calendar slot within my planner so that I know on Wednesday I'm gonna wake up and be like, Oh, at ten AM I said I had to

Sign the kids up for that camp that's gonna sell out in thirty seconds. Perfect. I'm gonna see that that morning, I'm gonna know about it, and then I'm gonna do it. So this is interesting. So your your main place you Uh you store the task, it's your planner itself. It it it exists somehow tied to time, be it at the weekly scale or the daily scale or in like a particular slot.

I put almost all of my tasks in even my goals tied to time. I mean, that's kind of how I link I call them goals kind of at the larger time horizons, like year or season.

And I call them tasks when we get down to the weekly or daily level. Um again, they're not always specifically tied to time, but they c I mean I guess they kinda are'cause even if I'm putting it in a future weeks time frame and even if I haven't entirely committed to dealing with it in that future week, it means I'm gonna see that task on that given week. Um,'cause again, just like the day and I have things that I wanna make sure I process by the end of the day, I'm never gonna exit a week.

Without doing something. And this is actually a very key point of task management to everything I've put there. It doesn't mean I've gotten them all done, but I've either decided, you know what, I don't wanna do that anymore, I'm crossing it off, or I'm migrating it. And actually this is kind of coming from the bullet journal world that I tend to read it all. Yeah, like an arrow through it and then I

Move the tasks to somewhere else. Oh, interesting. Okay. And then do you do that uh at the end of each day, are you are you is that when you're looking at tasks that were assigned to that day you didn't do, or is it more at the weekly cadence that you look at the whole week of things that were assigned either either to the week or to particular days that didn't get done?

So I do make a list for each day as well. We didn't even get into that. Um, but I tend to do the exact same process. Again, it's gonna be much much quicker on a daily level. Maybe I had six tasks I assigned myself. There was one I didn't get done. But as I'm doing that sort of like end of day processing, if I have a empty checkbox on my planner, I better figure out what I need to do with that task. Um

If I miss a day here or there, usually I'm able to kind of catch up by making sure I haven't crossed it off the weekly. So there's kind of multiple layers in there. Um but in general I do that processing really at the end of every day. And as I move forward to the next week.

is it it may be a way around the a real issue I have and I think a lot of people have, which is task system aversion. Which is this notion of if things are going into a task system, it could be a singular vessel and a very good program and things are being stored and categorized in there, there's a sort of activation energy that builds up, especially if like you're stressed or you're overwhelmed or the the w the week is going difficult

And you're like, my day is full. I like I often have days where uh you know, because I work within a very fixed amount of time where I'm constantly racing the clock. It's, you know, I gotta get this article in, these edits are due, there's these urgent things or whatever. And the activation energy of like, let me now

load up a task system and read all these tasks and confront all that I have to do and like I don't have time to do anything in this day and I don't want to do that and then I fall out of the task system for multiple days. So if you're just on your can the one tool I always say like everyone uses at least this one productivity tool or organization tool as a calendar because you can't remember when your dentist appointment is without it. So you know you're gonna look at your plan like the the

the weekly, like what am I doing today? What am I doing this week? Like that will get used because you have to see And so having the task in there means I there's no separate activation energy that's huge. Yeah. And it's actually like why David Allen stuff doesn't totally work for me. And it's what you said, it's like that residue of like, I don't want to look at all the things I want to do. I don't want to look at like,

six weeks worth of accumulated stuff when I know I have like two free hours on a given day. So that that's exactly that activation energy. I haven't heard it described in that way, but I think you're right. For me, it's so much less stressful to be like, Okay, what's on today? Oh look, today's really crowded. Let's only look at that weekly list. We're not looking beyond that and then like selecting maybe one thing if that's all I have time for.

creating my new list for the day and then never looking back for the rest of that day until I, you know, maybe when it's time to do monthly planning I'm gonna look go larger scale, but I design the system in part because I am like you stressed out by the idea of seeing everything I need to do more often than I actually need to

And and things that are non trivial in terms of time but are still in that task category. I mean, in my experience, the way those things get done is they live on they they're on your calendar for the day. Yes. Like that's how it happens. Is like, no, this is what I'm doing at twelve is I'm going to the dry cleaner and then calling like whatever information at list that exists in lists. is not very it it's much less actionable. But okay, so are you also here's the other idea

that I'm just thinking about ideas that are catching my attention as like, oh wait a second, yes, I think there's there's there's something here that's like explaining an issue that I want to solve. Because when I'm thinking about my task vessel, I'm using primarily Feng's three right now.

One of the things I do is like I'll often there'll be like a bigger project and I'll I'll generate is like come up with like steps and tasks related to that project. I'll be adding them to this list and I'm like, okay, I can't have I couldn't put all of these onto my cal like I have hundreds of tasks in there. But it sounds like until if I have this right, what what you would say is

You shouldn't be you're expanding too much of the goal into practicality too early. Like that project should exist as a goal. And when we get to your goals setting system, which we'll do next, I'm there's a cadence in which those goals or projects generate tasks. For the near future.

And that like probably you would say, if I have this right, like, yeah, your lists are too long because you're you're unfurling too much from these things you're working on. You don't need to do that in advance. You need to see what the projects are, look at your week and figure out What am I gonna try to make progress on this week with these projects and what does that actually look like practically? And let me put those tasks for the week or for particular days. Is that

Yeah, and there's nothing bad I don't think about keeping future potential project steps somewhere convenient. Like

For you it might be things, for me I'd love to be able to do that. I'm looking at my list while you talk, by the way. Now now I'm thinking about it. Um like there's nothing wrong with having a receptacle for ideas like Um I'm I'm imagining maybe you have like a renovation list and there's a whole bunch of things on there, but the truth is you're not assigning yourself all of those things at once because there's no way that fits.

in Cal Newport's lifestyle when he's also working and dealing with kids from day to day. So that's exactly right. You might have that as a reference. But you're not like putting on your plate all of those things until you've decided to put one of them on your plate, if that kind of makes sense. And that might happen, not to skip ahead, at a higher level goal setting system. Like maybe you're planning your summer and you're like, you know what?

Now is the time I'm ready to tackle that bathroom reno and um Maybe I'll just put like begin bathroom reno on the list and then on the monthly level you think about, well, what piece am I gonna do first? I'm gonna get quotes and then again, that kind of generates more smaller tasks at the weekly level where you're like Oh, let me text my friend and find out which contractor he used or whatever. So things will trickle down, but the idea that you kind of need to have

All of them assigned you as tasks when they're not really happening yet. I find that stressful. And again, I think that's partly why I built the things the way that I did. Well, like I I just noticed looking at my list now that there's like multiple pretty technical tasks related to one of the courses I'm teaching right now.

Um because I you know, at some I point I was like this needs to get done. I need to post a s the syllabus for the second half of the year and I need to, you know, check in with the TAs on this or that, right? I'm kinda like putting these things down so that it's not just in my head.

But there's also a notion of like, well, if you trust yourself that there's just like a standing project for the semester, which is the course and like part of if if I just at the beginning of each week was like, where am I in the course? What's coming up? What needs to get done this week? I'm not gonna forget though. Like I mean I'll I will be able to generate those things as the time comes up, most likely, right? I said, Okay, I'm looking ahead at this week, you know, like I need to

uh the rest of my syllabus should probably go up. Like we're getting towards the end of it. So let me uh schedule that for this week. Or I don't need to the TA thing maybe is relevant when there's an exam to grade or something like that. So there's some There's some interesting balance. And that's often gonna generate tasks that kinda like make sense for what's coming up. So, you know, part of planning at every time horizon and this this even includes the day.

Um, you're not just looking back at like, well, what do my previous self wanna do? You're like, oh, what's actually coming up ahead? Is there anything associated? And you being Cal, you would you would do it. You you can trust yourself. Like I'm sure that you would look ahead of the week and be like, oh

You know, we have this coming up. And if you had to do something that's longer range, maybe you would live your leave yourself some kind of a a note prior to that, but I feel like if these are things that are just like generally part of your job and your your flow anyway, that yeah, you'd come up with them and you probably don't need to have them somewhere separate. Now if having a list of everything is just helpful to like have a reference.

I don't even know if I would call it part of your task management system, almost just more of like a a collection or reference, then that that could make sense. Um but you haven't like truly assigned it to yourself. So let me tell you my

Goal setting system and then I want to hear let's do w there's a C S term. We'll do a diff. That's right. It was an old command line program. You where you give it to text files and it would highlight exactly where they differed. So it was it was like how you would tell if there's like changes the source code in a shared code repository. This is the type of stuff people come here for, Sarah they want to hear about it. Linux command line interfaces.

uh goal setting system and and nested goals. Nested goals. All right. So the way I run it is I typically have like a semester or quarterly check in, like what are the big things that are happening this season? I mean they roughly correspond to my academic semesters. And I write it out freehand. It's in a text file. It's like, hey, this is I the, I don't want this to be too structured yet. Um,

I'm teaching this course and here's type of things I have to keep in mind. Um where am I on like if I'm writing a book, like where I'm I'm really looking to be you know, done with uh submit the manuscript by December, which means like I probably need to be doing a chapter a month. It's so it's sort of like thinking through at a high level like what's happening at this scale.

Then, and this has sort of been my s my secret sauce that I think you were one of the few people who actually talked about this scale as well, is actually for me is the weekly The weekly scale is critical um because it's where I interface that plan in the calendar. And this was always this was like a big thing for me.

Um I look at that, okay, what are these things that are these big picture goals? I look at my task lists, which now I'm learning are probably too detailed and so this could be a lot easier. These could be like more stakes in the ground instead of like long list of things.

Um I look at my task list and I look at my calendar, which at this point is really just gonna have things that are appointments and meetings. So I can see like what's the layout of my week, when do I have time? When do I not have time? Which days are busy or not? Um Are there this was a key innovation, I came a at some point I was like, oh, this is the time to look for big win changes.

If I cancel this one appointment Friday at eleven A. M., that's gonna free up like six straight hours. And so like I see now I'm gonna be frustrated when I get there. I'm just gonna move that to like another day or something like that. And this is when I start putting stuff on the calendar that's not meeting our appointment. So now I'm like, I want to make progress on this goal. I'm gonna now block time on my calendar like a mean year appointment.

for that particular goal. Like I'm gonna be writing this day, this day, and this day. I'm gonna work on this like project this afternoon. And now I'm starting to protect time at that scale. It's also where if there's key tasks, uh I'll start when am I gonna get these done and I'll start actually adding them to my calendar. So by the end of my weekly plan, the calendar is like a lot fuller. There's a lot less space in it, but only seven years.

Some of it is actually meetings or appointments. A lot of it's what I came up with. And then I go to the daily scale every day. I make a time block plan for the day. Now what I found is If I don't time block plan it's uh unless it's a writing day where it's like all that really matters is I write as much as possible, like I'm on deadline and then it's just survival mode for everything else. Outside of those days.

Uh a lot of that day by the time I get to it, the calendar's pretty full because I've been making use of it, but I transfer that into a daily time block plan and I fill in the remaining gaps in the workday for what do I want to do during that time. Um and then I execute off of the daily time block plan for the day as opposed to like list react a method. All right, so that's my

Goal setting system. What's our diff there? Where are the places where we differ? Or do I do things differently? So I would say I'm a I lean a little bit less heavily on scheduling things, um, which is interesting. So like When I go, I actually will also add that I love to have a monthly level as well because I have actually figured out that I'm gonna pull my little monthly out. And yes, this one's analog too.

My schedule's very weird and varies a lot from month to month because I have weeks where I'll be entirely on call, entirely clinical. Like can't do anything for the podcast. And then I'll have other weeks that um maybe I've taken like time off to do work for the podcast. So like my months can be incredibly variable. So I actually have a step in here, even on the monthly level, where I'll look to see how many like

kind of work days do I have. When I say work days, I mean like how many clinical work days and how many work for myself days and how many days is the family going away, et cetera. Um, and that's how I will kind of decide how much I want to take on from a creative perspective because that's the lever that kind of moves the most. Um can go high on some months and low on other months. So month to month kids there. It's not just week to week. You're like this month might be a clinical month.

And correct. Or maybe not the entire month is clinical, but like whatever it that's the like the c this m the the feel of this month is like I'm actually doing a lot more like in office stuff. It's so it's okay, interesting. Correct. Like January I had lots of days that I could play around and work and then February we had a week of family vacation. I had something medical going on and I had a week of call. So that left me like

I don't know, this is like one out of four days is today that I actually have time to do anything. So that kind of helps me take a larger overview, like how much can I actually take on here? Do I even want to add anything kind of new over the course of the month? And then that kind of informs um, you know, the bigger things that I'm taking on. And I actually do usually create a list for the month that I look uh look towards as I'm planning each week.

And then my link my weekly process is similar to yours, but I don't tend to do as much of what you're saying, which is where I'll say, Oh, I have to write this, I'm gonna like give it a specific time slot. I tend to just sort of look, okay, I have this many hours, I have this many projects, and on a day-to-day basis, as I'm planning my day, that is when I'll actually commit to like what fits where. And that's just personal preference.

I don't like to feel entirely locked in. Like I think maybe it is kind of a backlash to on my clinical days every minute is spoken for. So on my non clinical days, I wanna be like Do I wanna write from ten to twelve or one to three? I wanna make that decision that day and I do purposefully make it on that day, kind of my own version of time block planning and think about what fits where, but I don't go ahead and kind of pre schedule it throughout the week. So my weekly Schedule

um, aside from the clinical days, actually probably looks less full than yours does um when I'm going to the daily level and then it's on the daily level where I say, Okay, which of these tasks am I selecting and where do I actually want to fit it within the day? But otherwise I think our systems are Have a lot of parallels. I think I pr I mean, I prefer that. If uh my issue, the reason why I have to do the the way I do it is that if I don't protect that time like Monday morning.

God, everyone comes and takes it. So that's my main issue is like I'm like, I'll if I say I'll figure out Thursday when I get to Thursday. Everyone in the world wants that time and by the time I get to Thursday, like the time to work on these things uh is gone. It so it it helps me uh basically it helps me say no to appointments. But I had this conversation when when uh Oliver Berkman stopped by earlier this year and we were, you know, talking about various things.

We he was like here's he he was like, Here's my ideal schedule and I agreed with him. He's like, the ideal schedule, just from like human nature, not fix a particular job, would be kind of deep work in the morning.

Like you're working on something important. Um, and then when you're done, then you're like based on how much energy I have, like let me like do a few other smaller practical things, more or less depending on my mood, and then be done. And I was like, Oliver, I'm with you, man. Like that would be

That's my rhythm as well. Unfortunately, the world has conspired to prevent that because I'm not a full time writer. Uh okay, so that's interesting though. I get that. I also I get stressed out by my calendar. And and I think this it bec but and I feel like I have to do it. Because otherwise it's just it's the chess game's too complicated I'm playing.

Uh but I think that's more a problem with the game I'm playing. Well I think again, you're an academician academic I don't know. Sorry. I don't even know how to pronounce the word, but Um, with certain careers, people can dump things on your calendar if they see open space. And I can see why that would really lend it to like, no, no, no, this says writing, so don't you dare put anything there. I am lucky in that

Um well my patient time is all up for grabs and that will get as filled as it get filled, but my time for myself, I'm really the only one who could dump stuff on there. Um that's just how I've designed things and I think that allows me to be a little bit less scheduled. I'll tell you my big innovation of this year.

Now and I can I can get away with this now because like I'm out of promotions to get, you know, I'm a full professor, been tenured for a decade, like there's no there's no no nothing else that you know for me to worry about upsetting people about. I introduced the notion of a studio day. And for me it's Tuesdays.

Um, because now that I'm doing a lot more digital ethics and not sort of hardcore computer science, I was like, look, the this podcast, my newsletter, this is a big part of like my work as a public intellectual on technology, et cetera. So studio days as I just tell my employer Um I'm not available on Tuesdays. I don't I don't do meetings on Tuesday. This I'm in my studio, I'm recording, I'm writing.

And this is I've consolidated it this one day, but it's like I'm reaching millions of people and this is important and I'll ask for, you know, uh forgiveness instead of permission. And that's been like a huge That's been a big boon actually. It's like, yeah, I just don't I don't do things on Tuesday and people grumble and then they have lives and they they stop caring because it's not that interesting to them. Well that totally makes sense.

And I feel very privileged that I'm doing this not on your studio day, but thank you for accommodating my patient schedule. Oh I'm I'm happy to do things on other days too, but like I just don't put like I have to go in to I have to go teach today, you know. That's

Which I which which I do enjoy. Um okay, so then let's talk about seasonality because this is something in your book, uh Best Lade Plans the Book, not the podcast Best Blade Bands, um, there's a lot on this and I think we're like very congruent on this idea of

moving away from the notion of just year round, no variation to your it's just like you're turning the crank at like a certain level of intensity and February feels the same as June, feels the same as December. Um Talk to me about varying rhythms, pace, workloads over time. Well, first of all, I just love the concept of seasons in general. And I don't know if that's partly because I live in South Florida and I don't really get to experience them, but I just like to really, really like

think about them and think about how my year makes sense divide it up. And I actually kind of talk about different ways that you might think about dividing up your year other than the traditional quarters or even trimesters if you're an academic. Um, but I really do like to take a very purposeful, like almost half a day kind of planning session.

four or five times a year. For me it's five because I like to divide the year up into five pieces. And think about what do I want out of the upcoming season and not to assume that, you know, season C is gonna be exactly like season A. For me Um the first season of the year is like

January first is spring break and that's usually the very go go go season. And then we kinda have a very kid focused season from spring break until the end of the year when we have all that like May stuff and every single kid is in every single competition or whatever. And then summer I treat as much more like let's just be lower key, do fun stuff. Um, and by the way, I didn't mention this previously.

But I think one other place we differ a little bit is I am very passionate about not just planning my work. But planning the fun stuff, like planning the get togethers with friends and the travel and the massage or, you know, whatever it is that I'm trying to build into my life to make it more fun.

And so summer might be a time that I have like a lot of fun planned and it's just like a looser time period. Then we have back to school, which has that rhythm of like, okay, kids are going back, we're in our routines. I'm also, because I'm in the planning world, tend to be really, really busy in like January and back to school season. So that kind of makes sense. And then I have what's called reflection season from November first to the end of the year.

where I just feel like the world takes on a different pace. It's a little celebratory. Everyone's reflecting and Um, I just like to like acknowledge that as having its own energy. So yes, I'm super, super big into A, like acknowledging the seasonal flows and B like purposefully setting time to think very hard about what you want.

each season to be like in advance of that season. So wait, so your quintiles are um so you got like New Year's through spring break. Spring break. Spring break. Spring break to the end of the school year. I think if it's a time when That's coaching time for me too. It's like I I coach multiple different things. Um, summer. Then back to school to like school Thanksgiving. And then

Until Halloween and then November first to December thirty first to me just feels a little bit different. Well but you got like holiday yeah, and you have uh you there's like the Thanksgiving holiday, there's gonna be like the Christmas hol it's just gonna be and people wind down. What I think A I love it. Um

And I think similarly. And I think b what's important here though is 'Cause a lot of times when I talk about seasonality you probably get the same thing. People will push back because they'll say, Well, like my job isn't seasonal. But like this is true for you, right? Like nothing about pediatric endocrinology changes in March versus January. But I think what what's captured by the way you talk about it is so much of

the feeling of your day and what you're focusing on busyness like expands beyond just what you're doing in your job. It's what you're doing on the weekends, in the evenings, on the day that you're not in the office and ha turning the knob on those things you do control is actually has a much bigger impact than people realize that it's not just

I can't take time off of work in this you know, the summer, so I can't have a seasonality. Like, well, it it it's completely different what you're doing with your time.

Even outside of work. And then my argument, you can't do the I uh in your job I don't think this would work. But in like a lot of knowledge work jobs, because it's a lot of it's a little more BSy. Um You have like a lot of give and in you can really turn intensity up and down is something that I I'm often telling knowledge workers in general because the job is so amorphous.

And there is no just like here's, you know, here's a list of things that you're working on and here's your progress. It's all like email and meetings or this or that. And you can often get away with like, Oh, I want to turn things down in the summer.

And you could do it for a couple months and no one will notice. If you do it for a year, they'll eventually notice. But you're just like taking on less things and moving slower and then you speed up in other times. So I think people have way more control over the rhythm of their Life than a real life. So, you know, many jobs.

Even if they're extremely structured and yeah, I can't get away with, oh, let me see 75% of my patient volume in July. Like that wouldn't fly, but I can take two weeks off and like save my vacation time for those times when I want things to be slower and then maybe take on a little bit less. on the creative side and then kind of create that slower rhythm for myself. Isn't this like the the people who do this to the most extreme? Do I have this right? There's like it's like

Uh ER doctors who sort of travel, right? And it'll be like, okay, I'm gonna come spend three months at this hospital in Boulder so that I and then I'm gonna ski for three months and like they really got that locked in, right? Because it shift world. There are definitely certain professions who either have tons of vacation time or tons of flexibility or

There are a lot of doctors these days that will do like locums work so they could decide that like they're gonna work their butt off in March and April and then like nod at all for two months. So yeah, that would be the extreme version. Yeah. And and it it's it's all like the pit.

This is all yeah. Everything I do all day is just like that. Everyone is super reasonable, like on the pit, right? That's just ever every doctor's experience where people just talk slowly and quietly and are just very reasonable. It's never chaotic at all in the ER. It's very peaceful and Yeah. Just it's it's very peaceful. Um, okay, I like that then. Okay, so we we we agree on the seasonality. All right, so uh the the pull this together for people. Um can we build I want to build an on ramp.

So like for a typical member of my audience might be they've messed around with individual type of tools you might use in this conversation. They've had a to-do manager, they have a calendar that they s they sometimes use. They've used a time block planner and then stopped using a time block planner. They have a task list they haven't looked at in a month because it stresses them out.

But they they're they're liking what you're saying. And like, okay, I think I'm gonna be less susceptible to being pushed around by big tech and distractions and numbing if I can take more intention about my life. Knowing now as we talked about it, intention might be like I'm intentionally slowing down and then speeding up here. And it's not just it's not productivity. It's not trying to increase the amount of work. How do we on ramp?

Because we talked about a lot of things. So how do we on ramp someone? Beyond the obvious answer is read Sarah's book. I was gonna say you buy best life plans and you read No, I'm just gonna be able to do that. Though you don't do it explicitly um

There's sort of like here's what's key and then here's like a little bit more advanced things you can add on. And so like the reader already has a system, can plus it up, but like the new reader yeah. So so how do we onboard the new the the new data planning? So I would just focus on those three things that I talked about. Like, do you have a calendar that makes sense where you're really able to see what you have to do each day in a way that makes sense to you?

Do you have a task management system that works and it enables you to see what you need to see at the right time? And are you checking your various inboxes in a thoughtful manner versus a when things come at me manner and How are you organizing your goals, both larger scale and smaller scale, and adapting some sort of it could be a bare bones version? And by the way, the tools really truly don't mat like I could do all of this in a binder in Apple nodes.

in um on paper on like a really uh in notion in a really fancy system. Like there's no specific tool, but to have somewhere to have rituals around setting larger scale goals, whether you're doing the yearly or seasonal level. And then also ways that you're going to bring that into the more practical timelines. So a way of looking at your seasonal self every week, maybe incorporating monthly in there, and then

Day to day assigning yourself the task that makes sense. So I think that would be my sort of like bare bones minimum calendar. understand your task management and have some kind of larger and smaller scale way of looking at your goals on a, you know, daily or weekly level plus seasonal or yearly. That would be that would be the most bare bones version. And that latter piece requires a thing to write. things down in. Right. So there's the latter piece of like I want to look at the

The the monthly scale and the seasonal scale. For you that's a notebook and it's a separate notebook than your planner. But you need somewhere where you're and it could be a Google Doc, it could be a text file. But you need somewhere where you're you're taking notes. Where things are actually very much like You know, they'll have a whole page for the year and then you can actually tab it and separate by seasons and they have different categories of their life, all color coded.

Um so yes, you do have to capture all this stuff. The medium in which you do that doesn't really matter, but you're gonna have to commit to something and continue to use it and to look at it. Um and I usually also talk about creating rituals that make sense for the timescale. So if you're planning the year or the season, you wanna dedicate like a good amount of presence and time to that. So you're gonna really want to clear out an afternoon or for the year.

Um, Laura Vandercam, who has been on this show before, I believe, as well. She and I host a like live planning retreat that lasts two days. And I'm not saying everyone needs to, you know, come to our retreat specifically, but um We do not run out of things to talk about with our participants in those two days for planning the year. So really giving yourself the gift of space when it's a larger time frame to think about what's coming up and what do you want out of that timeframe makes sense.

And then when you're going to the day, you want something very, very quick. Obviously we can't do a two day retreat every day, right? But we should have things kind of laid out so that you can look at your calendar, which is organized, look at your week, which has already been thought through. And select your task for the day in like five to ten minutes and be done with it. And then let me uh finally I have to rope you in, as I do with all guests, into some sort of

AI realism rant. Because you know this has been been my uh correcting the narrative on AI has been a big part of my work recently. Um I wanna rope you into my side on this, the intersection of AI and productivity, because I feel like there's this You know, tech people aren't the best people to talk about organizational systems because what makes a tech person happy is like complexity and pieces fitting together and whatever. But they've really been pushing this this idea that

Oh, the missing piece in people being organized could be solved by AI. And it really doesn't. seem to be the issue based on like our whole conversation. The issue is not When I am looking at what I need to do. Understanding it, figuring out priorities, figuring out what I should work on today. We're really good at that. Like our brains have embedded in it.

all of the relevant information, what's coming up, importance, how you're feeling, health, other thing that's happening. That's not hard at all. What's hard is consistency in capture. It's sticking with the system. Um maintaining intentionality instead of just falling back into like let me just be reactive because like I'm exhausted.

And none of that's helped by AI. So I don't know. Can I can I rope you into my rant on this? Is that that I am always up for an AI rant. Um so that's totally works for me. Um Yeah, I just don't wanna give some large language model like that control over what I do all day. I mean, I wanna be the one selecting my tasks. I Um one of my biggest and again I'm not a techie so I don't understand like the inner workings like you do, but one of my biggest concerns about AI

is that it's giving power to someone else that I, you know, I'm not consciously giving. So even like as simple as, Oh, let me have AI plan my vacations for the year, then I mean, who's not to say that like various places haven't like paid the model to suggest some things versus another or if we're not there yet, we're gonna be very soon. So I mean, for me, life the most precious thing of life is our time and our relationships and

I would like to maintain control over that myself and so I wanna decide what goes on my calendar. I haven't I'm not saying that AI tools might not be helpful for some people. Like You know, there are things like the Skylight calendar and I think some of these apps where you could take the soccer schedule and it will, you know, scan it and add those events to your calendar. Like those kind of rote tasks.

is see being helpful. But in terms of selecting what I want to do with my time, I would like to leave computer algorithms out of that personally. And I think um most people probably don't want to live a life that was just suggested to them. They want to actively choose what they're going to do. That's kind of the planning in the first place. I've never seen someone be stumped by

looking at their calendar and their to do list and be like, I don't know what to do next. Uh what I I need someone else to come tell me. I've never seen someone stumped on that. That's not that not that hard decision. All right. So this has been fantastic.

Um I want to make sure people know where to get more of this information. So you have two podcasts. Tell us about both. I do. So the first one is the one that's more planning adjacent. It's called Best Laid Plans. And I literally describe it as all things planning and planning adjacent. That one is just me with the occasional guest. Cal has been on it before and I will be having him on again.

Um the other one is called Best of Both Worlds and that is done with Laura Vanderkin. We co-host it together and that's about making work and life fit together. Um writer and

time management guru. So we make a fun team there. And your book, Best Lay Plans, that would that come out in the fall? When it's not too long ago. No, Jan uh December of twenty twenty five. So it's called Best Lay Plans, a simple system for living a life that you love. One of Amazon's Best nonfiction books of the month, right?

Yes, it got chosen for December. It was like a big shock. Um people were like, Did you pay for that? I'm like, No. So but that was a really fun honor and it it says like editors pick on there. Um of course you can get it at anywhere other than Amazon as well, but that was kind of a A fun thing. Excellent. All right. Well, Sarah, always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for getting the weeds with us. I think this type of thing is gonna be helpful for a lot of my listeners who

You gotta take control of your time. If you don't, big tech will happily take control of it for you. So this is the the first step. Um I'm sure we'll be talking again soon, but thanks as always for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having me on, and I very much enjoyed talking about the pit.

All right, so that was my discussion with Sarah Hart Unger. Uh I looked it up. I w I was on the show, Jesse, so it's worth people going back. I'll also years back, I think we had Sarah on our show. Yeah, we did. Yeah. So sort of a a long term friend of the show. I love geeking out about Planning systems. To me, the key point that prefaces the whole discussion, because I think her advice is spot on. I actually picked up some ideas there that I think are important.

But the key point that I think ties together the whole conversation is that Sarah did not like to associate the word productivity. With planning. So like that's two different things. Productivity is about, I don't know, professionally you're trying to increase the amount of something you produce. And like that's that.

But what she cared about was controlling your time. How d how do you have a say over what you're doing with your time so you have control? Uh I often use the term internally attention shaping. How do you shape your own attention so other services don't? And I think that's really useful. If we separate planning from productivity

We realized like, oh, this is one of the tier one skills, not just for living a deep life, but for pushing back uh on the digital distraction. So very good. It was good to have Sarah on the show. Let's take another quick break to hear from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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Go to Shopify dot com slash deep that Shopify dot com slash deep All right let's get back to the show. Alright so you've heard

Me talking with Sarah and now I wanna hear from you. So let's move on to the part of the show where we check our inbox to see what you have to say. All right, Jesse, what interesting emails or messages have we gotten recently that's worth reviewing?

The first one's from Sandra. Here's an email from her who is wondering if our dopamine addiction is changing how they make T V shows. Okay, let's see. I got this it's a good one because we are it's gonna be Not until later in the spring. But we are having Anna Limke on, who is the the researcher

Uh who wrote Dopamine Nation, like the the leading the world's leading experts on dopamine, how it affects us. So we're gonna get I'm learning a lot about dopamine now, so I'm glad to have this question. Alright, so let's see here. I got Sanders email here. Here's what she said. Have you noticed that in uh T V programs Uh such as the Great Pottery Throwdown. When the program finishes, they say next time, and then they show you the highlights of the next show like a trailer.

I hate this as I don't want to know what happens next time I want a surprise. They also do this at the start of the next program saying this time and then show the trailer which highlights of the show again. Um Is this an effect of dopamine? There is no delayed surprise. Basically you don't have to watch the whole show. You can just watch the first five minutes and decide if you really want to see the full detail.

Alright, so first of all, Jesse, I assume you're a uh a great pottery throwdown completist. You've seen every season of that show. I have. Do you think that's literally people just making pottery? Probably. So when they're like, all right, next time next time on the show and it just shows people very quietly at the pottery wheel. And then there's all this drama of like something's ready to topple over. Well, yeah, like uh and it it wobbles a little bit and then they Yeah.

And it kinda sticks on that for a second. And then one of the contestants comes in the frames, stabs him in the neck. See that's where the drama is. That's why you gotta watch. Is this gonna be a stabbing episode or just an episode where they make pottery? Um all right, there's a couple of interesting things here because you know what this reminded me of, Jesse is The advice that we heard from professional YouTubers about how you have to build a YouTube video to get big viewership on YouTube.

And re remember like the the various YouTube people we work with have told us like, oh the thing is like watch a Mr. Beast video, you'll see this. You have to show the people, the audience, right off the bat, this is what's coming. And you show quick clips of the biggest exciting things that's going to happen. So like a a Mr. Beast video, if they're, you know, crashing a train into something, you'll see the train crashing into something. They just show you.

Here's all the things that are gonna come. And then you go and you deliver the things you said you're gonna come later in the show with very limited friction. So quick cuts, moving, moving, moving, moving. to the things you already showed that was going to come. That sounds like it's exactly what's happening on these TV shows as well. Um I don't know the role of dopamine because we haven't had Anna on the show yet.

But there is a bigger phenomenon here that may or may not be tied to dopamine that we need a good name for. Jesse we gotta think about like a good name for this.

But there's something about the abundance of choice in media where now if I go into a streaming service, there is um endless things I could choose. That makes it hard to choose and commit to something to watch because your brain is always thinking there might have been a better choice. And I hear this a lot. I think we see this in our letters sometimes, right? Like young people in particular will be like, I have uh such a hard time

Like choosing and sticking with a movie. I think we got this in response to last week's episode because we a lot of people wrote in about movies. And a lot of people like, Yeah, I I don't even people who don't use their phone a lot were like, I just have a hard time sticking with the movie.

And so I wonder if there's something like this going on. Is the abundance of choice makes it really hard for us to commit to something'cause our mind is like there is other options. In a way there wasn't if you were just turning on T V and you flip through the channels, you're like, This is the Literally the only thing on right now that's like a little bit interesting to me. I have no other option. Your brain's like, let's watch it.

Or if you're at the movie theater, you're like there's no other place for me to go, so I might as well watch it. But if you have one click away from those horizontal carousels on Netflix, like, my God, there could be something better. So maybe that's what these TV shows are recognizing. We have to show them

The audience. Here's all the stuff that's coming. You're like, okay, I want to see that, that, and that. All right. This show is worth me watching. Um, I hate that as well. My kids hate it. They're always like, Don't fast forward, fast forward. Whatever we're watching a show that has a next time. All right. What else do we got here?

Next up is from Kendra. We have an email from Kendra with a reaction to your discussion last week of film students who couldn't make it through entire films. We got a lot of reaction for that one. Yeah. I mean peop because people like it's something a lot of people have personal experience with. All right, let's see here. Kendra says What I don't see mentioned here or most other places is that the length of movies has actually increased over the last ten plus years.

It used to be that a movie was between one point five hours and two hours, but that time is creeping up. Seems like most of them are over two hours now, and personal opinion it doesn't always make the movie better. Um I I intuitively I guess I've had that same effect. My my wife and I started last night um Train Dreams, which is one of the best picture nominees. It's out of Netflix Studios. And we noted, like it actually caught our attention that it was an hour forty seven.

So this must be a fact. Like that felt short, notably short.

Um I found an article. I haven't really read this yet, so we're gonna kind of do this on the air. I found a Vanity Fair article about exactly this phenomenon. I'm a little bit curious about what's going on. So let's let's look at this. Uh I'm gonna see if there's any interesting stats in this piece. Oh, I like this ad of James Cameron wearing Rolex. Why is James okay, I'm sorry to go do a divergence here. If you're James Cameron Why are you agreeing to do a Rolex ad?

You get free watches. He's so rich. He's so rich. He's he I think his net worth is like a billion dollars. Is it really? Yeah. I mean he's the he's the director and producer with significant profit participation in three out of the top five highest grossing movies of all time.

I think with those watches, they don't really have to do much and they just get cool watches in cool places. So maybe he just wants to do that. I don't but I mean a billion dollars. Right? So like I'm just let's make this relative, right? Like so for us Like, what would be the the cost of a Rolex to James Cameron, what would be the equivalent for like us and the money we have? That would be like, I think.

If someone is like, come do this photo shoot and like I'm go if you do it, I I'm gonna give you uh a a tall coffee from Starbucks at fifty percent off. Like you only gotta pay like a dollar twenty-five for it. Like, I'm not gonna go do an all-day photo shoot. Like, I could just buy a cup of coffee. Uh the only thing I can imagine, I'm sure this is fascinating for our audience, the only thing I can imagine is that the the diving, deep sea diving aspect. They sponsored

The documentary I think they sponsored the documentary he did where he went to the bottom of the Marianas Tren. Because if you were did you ever see that documentary where he goes to the bottom of the Mariana's trench? No, I haven't. It's really interesting. But they have a arm coming off of the submersible. That's just holding

I think it's a Rolex watch. The show that like look this diver watch at the bottom of the Marianas trench is still working or something like that. Okay. So but it's probably just part of the deal. Yeah. Yeah. Because he didn't want to pay for that documentary. All right, we figured it out. All right, anyways, here we go. Um here's some stats about the let's see if

Kindra is right about this. Here's what Van Dee Fair says. In two thousand and two, even as two nearly three hour Lord of the Ring movies dominated theaters, the average length

Of the top twenty box office performers was a breezy one hour and fifty nine minutes. Twenty years later, moviegoers had to sit through an extra thirteen ec minutes of footage on average. Okay, so we went from Hour fifty nine in two thousand and two on average to if I'm doing my math right, uh two hours and twelve minutes. Uh in

Two thousand twenty two. All right, so movies did get longer. Um, is there a reason I skimmed some of the rest of this article? Here's what's interesting about it is they have a lot of people saying all right, here here's a let me read this quote here. The studios are definitely not encouraging three hour movies. That I can guarantee, says a senior movie executive, as a consumer speaking for myself and on behalf of many other people like me enough already. All right, so if the studios

aren't encouraging this. Why are the movies getting longer? It seems like it's just the filmmakers want to make longer movies. Why do you think that is? They like'em. Like here we go. Well, let me read you from the article, Jesse. Uh cinema purists might see a long film as a sign of a director with something to say.

So yeah, it just seems better. I have another theory for this as well, though. All right. So yes, the studios don't want it. The audiences don't necessarily want it. The directors want it, but they've always wanted long movies, right? Um I suspect the difference is there's fewer movies. Like it's pr you know, they mentioned like oh two thousand and two. Sure, the Lord of the Ring movies were three hours long, but the average movie was short.

But in two thousand and two you probably had a lot more movies in the theater and you had a lot of uh mid tier movies because there's just a lot more movies coming out than there are now. And the mid tier movies they were not gonna allow to be long, but it seems now

There's fewer movies in the movies that are made, they tend to be more like big event movies. It's going to be like a Chris Nolan movie. It's going to be Martin Scorsese, Killer of the Flowers Moon, right? It's going to be these big event movies. And maybe those have always been long. We just don't have shorter movies to pull it down. Like Do you think that's true? There's less movies now? Yeah. Uh post pandemic. They're still recovering. The global box office.

It's qu never came it has not made it back to two thousand nineteen. Hasn't come close. But in terms of book sales, books books are okay. Interesting. It's a little bit misleading. Book sales industry wide are doing fine. They've continued to like rise at like a reasonable pace. But what's really happening is nonfiction sales are down, which is bad for me, but it's being compensated for because of these massive hits, especially in like women oriented fiction and fantasy fiction.

So you have like the dark fantasy uh books where like People are marrying dragons and books like uh Colin Hoover books that come out of uh book talk and they're selling huge numbers. you know, twenty million copies of a book. Like just huge numbers, mainly among more among female uh readers than male readers. Nonfiction's not doing as well. And in part that tended to be more of where uh you had male book readers and they're not reading as much. So books are doing fine.

But uh it's a little bit uneven. But movies are not doing nearly as well. They just a and even the biggest hits aren't as big of hits as they were sort of pre pandemic. Um because yeah, I mean, think about all the movies. Like we talked about it last week, like the Probably the the greatest movie of that decade came out in two thousand and two, which was the Britney Spears Vehicle Crossroads.

But there's a lot of movies like that in two thousand and two. There's not as many of those today. And those are all short because they were like, No, you can't make it long. We want to like move as many movies through, but then when Peter Jackson came along as like I'm do Lord of the Rings, he was like, I do three hours, like I I guess sure. And now it's like all Peter Jackson movies. That's my theory.

All right. Um do we have another email? Yep. This is from an anonymous person. It's a comment saying that extends some of the issues you discuss about attention span last week from the context of movies to the workplace. All right, anonymous. Let's read this note here. One angle of smartphone addiction I haven't seen discussed is the fact that it's torpedoing the ability of people to focus at work. Anecdotally, I've heard from many people

Saying that they have trouble paying attention in meetings and experienced aloofness from my coworkers firsthand. If corporate America cares mostly about profits. Why don't we see pressure from companies on their employees to curb their smartphone induced fragmentation? Would love to hear your take signed anonymous. That's an interesting point. Uh it's become a bigger issue.

These used to be separate magisteria for me in my writing, and I'd have to always make the point when I would do interviews, et cetera, like these are two separate issues. Distraction in the workplace is driven by workplace communication tools like email and Slack. Distraction at home is being driven by attention economy platform tools on your smartphones like social media.

And I said the effects are similar. It does your attention is fragmented, but the causes are different and therefore the solutions are different. The the issue in work has to do with the way we collaborate. Because we collaborate with this hyperactive hive mind approach of everyone just talks to everyone on demand as you're needed.

It creates a situation which you have to constantly monitor communication channels, not because they're super addictive or super sticky or because you have bad work habits, but because that's where the work is happening and if you don't monitor it, you fall behind. And that's what's distracting you. Whereas on your phone, outside of work, the reason why you're looking at that phone all the time is because it's engineered to be hyper engaging.

And it's creating a r reward loop within your short-term motivational system. And then those neuronal bundles are voting for the phone whenever they see it and it wins out over other activities most of the time. Two separate problems. But what Anonymous is saying is something that I've seen to be increasingly true, which is that the distractions from the phone have gotten so good that as we talked about last week, they're overall reducing people's cognitive patience.

They're overall reducing people's comfort with any sort of sustained attention, even when they're in a non phone contact. Like they're in a meeting. And they they can't pick up their phone, right? Because they're they're if we want to look inside the brain.

The short term reward system, you have these neuronal bundles that vote if they feel like the expected reward of a behavior is going to be high. They're not going to vote for picking up the phone if you're in the middle of a meeting with five people with your boss because it's measuring the the benefit you'll get by seeing something interesting.

With the massive negative impact of your boss being like, are you looking at your phone like right in front of me while I'm trying to talk to you? So in a meeting, we're not being drawn to pick up our phone because our mind is saying this is not there's a low reward to that.

But we're still as reported by Anonymous having a hard time paying attention, drifting aloof, like can't keep our mind focused. This is becoming this is a sign, I guess I would say, of the cognitive impacts of consumer, non-professional consumer digital attention economy tools moving to a new level of of uh magnitude of pain, a new level magnitude of negative impact.

That it's not just now it's hard when I have my phone not to look at it, like when I'm out to dinner with my friends. It's I'm beginning to permanently lose my ability to be comfort, sustaining focus, delaying gratification. Even if I can't look at the phone, I just can't do it anymore. So these worlds have now come together. So y yeah, both of these the again, we have two different problems. So the the solve the phone problem

Really the only solution is you have to stop participating in the attention economy. I'm so tired, it's been a decade now of people trying to convince me that this is the pub the it's inevitable. It's the digital town square. We still hear these arguments today, you know. that if we don't let twelve year olds in Australia be on TikTok, they won't be able to know about world events and all these type of things. But that I'm so tired of that argument.

It's just a giant money making scheme that strip mines your mind to like allow Mark Zuckerberg to buy the second half of Kawaii. So we have to just stop participating in that economy and you'll eventually gain back from that cognizance. But then we still have to solve the email and Slack problem at work, which is has to do with collaboration style. So it's a hard Oh God, Jesse, there's a lot of hard challenges out there, but I guess it gives me something to do.

Um all right. So also, as always, uh towards the end of the show, I'd like to discuss what I have been up to recently in my own quest to cultivate a deep life. So give you my update. First people have been asking about this AI programmer project. So I'm not sure if you saw this Jesse, but last well I guess it'll be two weeks ago now when this comes out, I sent out an email to my newsletter list saying

If you're a computer programmer, I want to hear how you're using AI. The good, the bad, what you love, what you hate, whatever it is. I just want to, you're not using it all, you use it every day. I just want to hear about it because. There's a lot of discussion right now about cloud code and agentic AI.

And a lot of discussions a little bit for someone like me who follows the industry closely and for a lot of people, like programmers, it's a little the it's a little confusing the the sudden attention because these sort of AI tools for programming have been big since before Chat GPT came out, the sort of auto complete, tab complete, you know, we go way back, we go to cursor, these sort of pre Chat GPT products. And then as I reported in January for the New Yorker,

I did a lot of interviews with people who work on these programming agents, these command line interface agents like Cloud Code. Those really started showing promise in twenty twenty four. And that's what allowed at the beginning of 2025, this was the article I published in January. At the beginning of 2025, it led to all these tech leaders to say, We're going to have agents in all parts of your life this year. Twenty twenty-five will be the year of the agent.

because we're seeing how good these are already working in programming. And then what happened is uh it turns out non programming agents are much harder and nothing really happened in twenty twenty five.

But the computer programming agents continued to get better. And about six months ago, I guess it's just like a tipping point thing. There's a lot of programmers using these agents because they're really they were good. It was the only thing that a gentic thing that was really working well in AI. Um

But there's more people started using them about six months ago with some of the latest updates, cloud code switching from Opus to Sonnet. There's like these little things got disco it. Nothing big happened. No new technology was introduced, but just like these little changes happened where I think it became just easy enough that in more context people used them. And also I think it's just a reporting thing.

People started talking about, yeah, I'm using these agents. They're pretty cool. And then that got a lot of other people that who hadn't been using them to use them. So there wasn't really a technological breakthrough six months ago, but there was a awareness breakthrough within the the wider world of these tools, which have been like steadily you know, they've been around for a while. Anyways.

I wanted to know what's really going on. So I've heard from I'm never gonna get through this, Jesse. Three hundred and fifty people have sent me in detailed briefings and I'm trying to go through them in detail, take notes and I'm also coding them. Like Are you coding them? Uh I'm coding the AI use of the person. So is it like uh from one extreme, like doesn't basically uses rarely or only occasionally uses any AI.

Um agentic uses. Rarely uh all programmers now uh people understand AI completely changed programming in like twenty twenty two. Like everyone tab completes all sorts of things. And tab complete is where the it'll finish the code that's like right in front of what you're doing. Because it's like, oh, you start writing a function name and press tab and it'll finish the calls for you. And so like everyone does that. Uh but with agenda coding it's like rarely uses it.

uses it for some types of situations but not for others, like there's just depends. Um uses it for the majority of their coding. And then uh vibe coding, which is so use it for the majority of their coding, but uh closely supervised, I should say. And then vibe coding, which is like the way Matt Schumer talked about in that article we talked about last week, where you're like build this app and you come back later and it's built it and tested it.

Um so I'm also like coding so I can keep statistics. Um and just trying to keep track of notes and God, it's I've I'm through like fifty. I've made it through fifty of the three hundred and fifty. Yeah. And I would say A good portion of them are written by AI, which is interesting. I mean the people d disclose it. They're like, I'm not a very good writer. I wrote this by AI. Mm-hmm. So it's interesting. I much prefer the non AI written reports though, because AI like

You can see where it's just it's so bland and just like summarizing like it's almost like vibe. So I I get better reports when they don't write the report by AI. Anyways, um That's ongoing and I don't know what to do with it.

I just want to be more informed about it so that when we talk about these issues in the future, I know exactly what people are doing because there's so much room for hype and vibes as well as fear, dystopia, and utopian rhetoric here that I want to be super grounded. It's really complicated though. So I don't uh

I don't have my arms around it yet. The main thing I can say is I think you have to think about there is for sure a new style of programming that is significantly spreading. Fifty percent of the first fifty reports I've gone through. are now largely using a agents to produce code under close supervision. Almost no one's vibecoding. That's not really a thing. Uh vibecoding's fine if you're

You know, you you're not a programmer and you need to build a quick web application to help organize your team. But that's like a separate thing. And these are all serious programmers. So there's like four of them so far or doing anything that looks like vibe coding. Um

But half of them are uh and the other half aren't it'cause it also turns out that like it has to be a language and a type of thing on which is trained a lot for it to be good. So if you're trying to write like advanced Rust code or something, it doesn't work well with that, it doesn't work well with Go. And it's a really new type of work where it

Very interactive. A lot of like mon okay, you're trying to converse with the agent with you're writing specs and it checks the spec and doesn't understand what you like all this like specification. You all this work and then find like, okay, now build this piece.

And then it builds that piece. And then you you test it and you let it write tests and you have it look at your test and then you fix things. You try again. And you kinda have the it's like supervising of uh someone told me it's like supervising like a junior employee who's like a pretty good coder but like super literal. And you have to like really be on'em. Mm-hmm. That's like what it is.

Right now. I think it's like a beta. We're in the beta phase of this. I think There's the c there's a core in here that's gonna stick. and r increase the speed with which senior programmers make progress on what they're doing. I think there's a lot of other stuff that's surrounding it that's probably unnecessarily wasting time.

And I think there's gonna be new processes and procedures. There's gonna be some things where we strip this back away from and other things where we keep it. So my main thing I can say now is the way A lot of programmers are experimenting with this. A lot of programmers are spending most of their time experimenting with it and not actually doing their work. And it's a beta phase. And I think it's gonna take six months till this shakes out and then we see what

how this more permanently changes how certain types of programming happens. So I don't know. That's what's going on. I listened to your Zitron interview. Oh me on his show. Yeah. Yeah. On his haters ago Yeah, what'd you think? I liked it. I liked how you explained some stuff'cause I was Confused and then you explained it. I've been doing these videos. Uh I I might record another one today, uh with my friend Rob Monts. We record him here in the studio. And he's like a

philosophy Brown Ivy League guy. So he like plays the role of the smart person who doesn't understand technology. And then he sort of interrogates me on whatever's going on in AI. So you should check those videos out as well. Um yeah, so I like those.

Yeah, quick question before I get into what I've read and watched recently, quick question for the audience if you want to send us in to interesting at calnewport.com. I'm thinking, I'm scared of this idea. So I hate new commitments. But I'm thinking because I'm under some pressure about this, about maybe having a standalone short podcast and newsletter just to do the AI reaction.

So they keep this show and the newsletter kind of focused on what it's meant for, which is like helping individuals in their fight for depth in a distracted world. And then have a maybe on this feed or on its own feed of sort of like, here's like what's in the news on AI this week, let me give you my AI realist take and then maybe like a newsletter version of it. I s I'm uh terrified of that work. But also I feel

Maybe I have a voice in this that's important right now. I don't know. So if you have feedback, uh

Synth uh interesting at Cal Newport dot com. All right, what did I read or watch? Uh so we're recording this, Jesse confirm. We're recording this on February twenty fourth. Plenty of days left in February. I have completed my fifth book for February. Yeah, baby. I read The Last Kings of Hollywood by Paul Fisher. My wife gave it to me. Again, I've mentioned I maybe I mentioned this before. This is a book that was basically like invented in a lab to be exactly what I want to read.

The rise of Spielberg, Lucas, and Coppola. Mm-hmm. So obviously obviously I love this book. All right. So that's my uh fifth book for February. I would go through them all, but I don't have the list with me. I forgot. Lost Island, Intensity Last Kings of Hollywood, Lost Book of the Bible, the Hidden Book of the Bible and The Tatify? I said that. There's one there's one before there's one other one I'm forgetting. Um

Whatever. Oh, Lost Oh, you said Lost Island. Yeah, I said Lost Island. Speaking of Lost Island, I did see in the podcast last week. Uh, when I was talking about Lost Island, I don't know what the hell book cover you found. I guess it was a book with the same name. Oh, is that a different one? Oh, yeah. So I looked it up. You put up a book cover for it, it's a children's book.

So the audience is like, What the hell? There's a ver there's a book called The Lost Island that's aimed it said for the like s nine to twelve year old market and it's like kids exploring or whatever. So the other one must not be popular at all. It's old. It's like a decade old. Yeah. Yeah. Um so no, I I didn't read a kid's book. Uh In case people are wondering. I'm also watching things. Um people want to hear about movies after last week's episode. I watched the smashing machine.

Starring Dwayne Johnson. Dwayne Johnson was great. The filming was in that like really confident, impressive, like standard safty style naturalism, which I think it's like

Really impressive all tier filmmaking. Uh the movie though, they couldn't they couldn't find a core of the movie in the script. It was at least my opinion. Is it was like episodic and impressionistic, uh, but you it they they struggled to actually have an arc or attention or you just kinda felt like you were in this person's life and then they added in the sort of Emily Blunt, sort of like very cliched, not very interesting storyline of like

There's his wife, she be crazy, and it's a real problem for him, and but then they like make up again after they fight and like the guess that's his main villain was like overcoming his wife's craziness. Like there was no It's like a beautifully crafted acted movie that they didn't have the core. And I think that's why otherwise the the pieces were great, but it didn't I don't think it came together. I'm gonna watch that soon actually. Uh yeah, it's worth watching. John Rock is great.

Really good acting. Um, I also he's huge. He's a monster. Monster. He's like what 85 years old? What is he now? Monster. Uh we also watch Song Sung Blue. which was starring Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson about dramatizing the life of a Neil Diamond husband wife tribute band. From the nineties and two thousands. Uh, you know, it was like an it parts of it were like a jukebox musical, right? Like it's very like good hearted and and they're just like

Super happy and they're great singers and like singing Neil Diamond and it's shot like a concert film those parts and it's really nice. It was fine. Um it it had to be edited to the problem is is not to spoil too much, there's multiple tragedy beats in it. So it's like things are going well, tragedy, things are going well, tragedy. And it's like they they had to cover too much ground too quickly. And to like you're just as you're getting started, like I kinda like this

It's kind of feel good, infectious Tupac m musical, you get to that tragedy beat pretty quickly and you're like, I don't think I'm bought in enough into these characters to care. And then so again, I I it's one of these movies like good not great. Mm-hmm. Yeah, good components, but uh Good components but didn't all come together. All right. So that's what I was up to. I think that's it for this week. You and uh there's a note here about you're finishing up the best picture nominees.

Oh, yeah. So that's why we watched um That's why we were watching Train Dreams. Yeah, so my wife and I are trying to finish That's the one where he's a tree cutter, right? Yeah. I saw that. That was good. Yeah. Okay. I'm about halfway through. Yeah. Beautifully shot. Mm-hmm. Um so we uh we try to watch all the best picture nominees. We're we're pretty close. We we are doing one exchange.

where there's one movie she saw I didn't and one I saw she didn't. We're gonna count it for both. She didn't want to see Frankenstein, I don't want to see Hamnet, and so we're kind of we're we're still counting it. So we we've got to see Train Dream still, Secret Agent. Um which I'm looking forward to. And I think there's only one oh, sentimental value. All I can think about with the movie watching and our theme the last couple of weeks is when you're talking you're

Um to take thirty minute breaks and read a article with the three hour movies. I'm like that's gonna take a It doesn't take it takes five minutes. No no I think it's fine. Yeah, you're right. The meters are pretty long. I love I that's what I do. I've never tried it but I wanna try it eventually. Yeah, like re energizes you. It really makes a difference. And then you like learn a lot of film stuff. All right, anyways. Um enough of this nonsense. What's uh

We'll call it for now. We'll be back next week with another episode and until then as always stay deep.