Snowball - Episode 6: Stakeout

Pushkin.

This episode contains occasional course language.

Here we go.

Oh man, it's like game day for a sportsperson that's been training for ages, but only as thirty seconds on the field to kind of prove themselves. My brother, Simon and I are in our ridiculous American muscle car. After months of investigating, today might be the day I come face to face with Leslie Minuchian. You know how sometimes people say that they have butterflies in their stomach, Well, I reckon minds more like bats flying out of a cave,

Hope you guys can hear us.

Okay, all the people have been speaking to from her past, they all say Leslie won't talk. But I've traveled across the world to be here, and I've just got to get Leslie's side of this story. We're pulling into the workplace that Leslie's at we're about to be at, and she could be in the traffic around us as we drive around. At this stage, we just want to scoop the place out and confirm Leslie still works here. Then we'll figure out how I approach her. Before we've made

A female black hair can imagine her kind of driving a car like that.

That honestly looks like her.

Bro, that's that's Minuchi in mate. She's hopping out.

No, it's not her. As we sit here, it seems like everybody could be who we're looking for it. She doesn't looked too far off yet, though it's close Leslie. There's only one more thing to do. I need to go into the supermarket and see if I can see her. I'm just going to brave a full incognito mode look around in the supermarket. Why because I want to confirm that she is there. I reckon I can do it without being spotted. It's risky. I don't want to talk

Oh okay, if the heart is racing, I'm going down the kind of main aisle now I'm going to peel out. Couldn't spot her behind the cashiers is looking further down. Oh my gosh, there she is. Absolutely that's her. She's working in the customer service aisle, and I reckon I might be able to get a long shot.

All right.

When I come out of the supermarket, Simon is off in the car watching the other entrance. I want to check if I'm right. I sent you a little screenshot and have a look at it, and you tell me if that's her or not.

And as one hundred percent I just saw I didn't even have to look towards.

Now that we know that Leslie's in there, we just have to be able to spot her when she leaves. I've spent so long hearing from all these people who say that they've been calm by Leslie. Today I finally got a shot at asking her about all this stuff, what really happened in Tahoe, San Diego, Hawaii and with my family in New Zealand. But I might only have one shot at talking to Leslie, so I need to be prepared, cool and calm. We retreat away from the car park to finalize our plan. Then it's all on.

It's been ten years now since I last saw Leslie Manukin. It took me most of these ten years to get past the destruction and lies that women left a new week.

When my investigation led me to California, my brother gave me this letter for Cameron, the guy you heard from last year episode who owned phenomenal restaurant.

I don't know you other than we share a terrible experience at the hands of Leslie Minuchiin. It takes a while to get through it, but you will. Perversely, it will help you knowing there are many more victims. It's not such a lonely place when you think it's just you. For a long time, I wanted to believe that it was just me. That Leslie desperately wanted to start a new life in New Zealand, and she felt compelled to do anything to stay here. This was the emotional side

That's just part of the letter in the full thing. Greg also suggested to Cameron that Leslie could be busted for what she had done, but it seems like the only thing that's actually going to catch up with her is me. I think I've learned a lot about how Leslie operates, but I'm no pro at this kind of thing. I normally stick to coming up with dumb radio talkback topics before I try to talk one on one with Leslie. I want some expert help.

I'm Maria Kadikova. I am an author, psychologist and a professional poker player.

Now Maria Konnikova, aside from having a name combining two Russian tennis players, knows what I might be up against and more. She's a doctor of psychology and she spent three years interviewing conn artists for her book called The Confidence Game. Maria says con artists aren't just liars.

The term actually means confidence artist and it comes from confidence, not in the sense of how confident you are, but in the sense of confidence as in trust. It's not enough to just kind of commit fraud, for instance, lasts of people commit fraud and aren't just criminals, they're not con artists. And it's not enough to just kind of lie to someone you're just a liar. Then you're still not a con artist. So you need to satisfy all

That does seem to apply to Leslie's past. She definitely had some plans going on in the background. I also ask Maria for some tactics that might get Leslie talking.

Stroke Kerr ego. That's actually my number one piece of advice. The reason that con artists were willing to talk to me, even knowing exactly what I was doing, knowing that I was writing about them, was because they're very egotistical. They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention, and they're proud of what they do. So don't be confrontational. Instead say you know, I realize you're a good person. I know use their own tactics on them. They stroke your ego.

We'll be right back.

So if Lislie is anything like the con artists Maria has spoken to, I need to look out for flattery for her and from her. Now I have that swirling around in my brain, along with trying to be friendly enough to keep Leslie talking while also being firm enough to get some answers no worries. That's not the only challenge I'm facing on our ricky. Earlier, we found another potential issue. The supermarket has two entrances, and Leslie could leave from either of them, so we plan to split up.

I'm just like a clear view.

So now we wait. As we sit there, some dudes go past. That give me some confidence we're blending in So funny because some guys just drove past similar muscle car with baseball caps on and I even thought it was me driving past. It's amazing. As the minutes tick by, I start getting cold feet. I could have just stayed at home. I didn't need to be doing this. It's twelve years ago. Everything's fine. It's gone and making life difficult for yourself wards. But I pulled myself together. I

I'll just phone ready to greasy button of Centers.

I see it.

Okay, we're ready, but I'm feeling jumpy. I feel like I just need to keep talking. We're in the best possible park, the closest one to each of the two entrances to this strip mall. It's one level kind of regional shopping center that you might expect in Bellarat, Geelong, Hamilton. And now we're just playing the waiting game for her to come out so I can have a chat. Hopefully

Okay, I see her, I see her. I'm running to it while she's getting in a car. She's getting in a car damn it, damnit.

As I get up to Leslie's car, I hear the engine start. She's about to drive away. I try knocking on her window and she opens the door just a crack. Hey, Leslie, it's Ollie Ward's Hey.

What's good?

Hey, how are you doing?

My god, how are you?

I'm good. I've got to let you know I'm recording this because I'm making a bit of a documentary about everything that happens with you and our family, and I would love to get your side of the story.

Wow, okay, well right now, it's not a good time. I'm super sorry.

Yeah, if you can just really quickly tell me in thirty seconds, even like I just really wanted to know because I never got to see you again, like about everything that happened in New Zealand.

Well, obviously, you know, I'm sure you've heard your parent's side, in your brother's.

Side, and I would love to hear your side.

Honestly, I would love to give you I would love to talk to you seriously. This would but right now is honestly, like, honestly not the best time to do this. I don't even know what to actually say. You totally caught me off guard.

I know.

I'm sorry, it's really weird, totally you, it's totainly me.

What do you mean, It's like, that's just your personality, that's how you always have been, just to go get her, and you know, you like to get to the bottom of stuff and get the story.

And I appreciate that.

There is that flattery. The psych Maria told me to look out for. Leslie's opened the door less than Arma's length. Her engines running, So I just try to keep her talking.

But I do have somewhere to go. Is there a time that we can How are you here?

I mean, I can catch up with you later today or anything, or how about tomorrow? Tomorrow is great, And you know, I really do just want to hear your side of the story.

And Allie, I totally believe you, one hundred percent, and I would love to tell my side of the story because I think I was unfair in some ways, for sure, but I think that everything could have been handled in a completely different, different way. And I'll start with that and maybe we can elaborate a little bit more tomorrow.

That sounds like some sort of admission that Leslie knows she's made some bad decisions. But it's vague. She seems keen to meet up tomorrow and go through things, which is surprising me. She even gives me her number, no grab a number.

Or something, you know, not a problem name for night.

Okay, hang on, I'll just take this down. But I don't want to count on that happening, so I quickly ask another question. I know, you see that you kind of felt like it was unfair from both sides or anything. If you could elaborate at least a little.

Bit, Well, I just feel that, I just feel that we should.

Have all been able to sit down and have an adult conversation and to be really honest, Ali, I blame your brother a little bit for not kind of kind of stepping up and kind of pulling your parents and I together as one and letting us sit down and actually have a conversation about why I did some of the things I did to make things happen.

You know, you know my.

Intent was never hurt anybody, of course, But yeah, there's a lot could I could say, but go ahead, just like you.

Never came back. I mean, it was twelve years ago, and did you think about it?

Your brother never once called me.

He never once called you after not after.

The initial couple months of us kind of going back and forth and him kind of asking me questions about what happened, I got paperwork asking for an annulment and.

Never never could from again.

What about the business stuff? I mean, I'm interested as to what happened at the Dragonfly.

Well, you know, the Dragonfly was kind of a yeah, it was kind of one of those situations where you know, I I did the best I could. I got in over my head, got Greg got in over his head. I didn't do my due diligence like I should have either, So you know, I was a big, big fault at that. But again I didn't have the support that I needed, the back support to see what we can do to

Did this, this, this, this, this, this, instead of we all did it.

We all made the decisions together, and we we all I'm not to say to blame, but I just think from an adult situation, I don't think it was handled the way it could have been.

That's all that I didn't like.

I said, it wasn't to go there and screw your parents over, and screw Greg over, screw myself over.

You know.

I came back with nothing too, you know, and I had to start from scratch, you know. But your brother never once tried to try to pull us all in. He never came here, nothing, nothing. So what was I really supposed to do?

All right? She's doing a pretty good job of making things sound like it was just a failed business venture a failed marriage. But Lesley doesn't know how long I've been working on this. The documents people have given me evidence of possible fraud, fake bank statements, court documents, police reports, even a fake lawyer. She doesn't know that I know all of that stuff, but I think it's on her mind.

I think I feel that maybe some of the the ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher.

Yeah, can you explain that? And what do you mean by that?

Well, what I mean by that is like I could have revealed my finances more instead of not.

I didn't reveal them the way I should have, you know. But so that was kind of on me.

Describing everything is not totally kosher seems like an understatement.

But yeah, I mean really, I don't really honestly know what else is much more to say, but that, you know. I mean, like I said, I came back here and it was a lot of just a lot of phone calls, a lot of blame, a lot of well, you know, send me. I asked so many times, Allie to get paperwork to send stuff to me. All I received was some paperwork saying that, you know, I needed to sign over the business, which I did immediately. I signed everything over everything that they needed I did, you know, right

Yeah, and I appreciate this as upsetting for you obviously, you know, but.

End upsetting For the last oh years, Allie, I never got closure.

I never got to say goodbye to your brother. I truly loved him, So.

Anyways, what would be the closure that you would want?

It's too late now, I don't I just would have loved to have said goodbye and sorry for any mistakes I made or bad decisions I made, and I would have loved to have I would have loved to for him to have just a little harder.

I'm feeling a bit rattled. I didn't expect Lesley to start crying or to even vaguely concede that she had made bad decisions. But the biggest shock is who she thinks was at fault. I thought maybe Mum and Dad would copy it. Instead, she's saying Greg should have tried to win her back.

I would have loved to have had an adult conversation and sit down and go through all the numbers, have the bank guy there, everything. I even offered to do that, you know, and then all of a sudden, it was don't come back here.

And that's what I was told over and over.

I have to stop myself from challenging Leslie on that she could hit the gas at any second. What I really want to do is ask her about some of the things that might be hard for her to explain. What about the trust fund?

What about it?

Like, so you know, I just it's it seems like do you still have it or I do not?

No, I do not.

As Leslie speaks, I'm listening and frantically tapping at my phone to bring up some of that evidence that I've got. I just want to show you just a document that I that I've recovered on my phone. I have the documents that convinced Kiwi Bank to hand over a one point five million dollar loan, the loan my parents guaranteed, thinking that Leslie was putting her trust fund on the line alongside them. Like I said, I've been doing a fair bit of digging around just to try and understand

Okay, from my trust fund, Colonial trust? Yeah, what about it?

Well, it's a bit weird because the the numbers kind of trail off on a little bit of an angle. So that's okay, So you had about five million in there.

Right, Okay, Yeah, that's what it says.

But it's just a bit weird because then the number trails off on a little angle down on the side here, and if you actually add these four numbers. With these four numbers, it's some starting balance, money in, money out closing balance. It's actually wrong by about six hundred and sixteen dollars.

Oh wow, Okay, that.

Seems a bit weird for a bank statement, right, yeah, it sure does. And because the other thing is I found that statement, but I also found this Barclay bank statement which was a joint account between you and Greg, which looks really similar like it's it's got you know, the same things, money in, money out, closing balance, the formats the same the you know, Dad.

Had said something about this too many years ago, something about banks tampens.

Is this what he was referring to?

Yeah, I mean even the barcode is the same on the two statements.

I believe I remember him saying something about that. And no, I don't have an explanation for that. Okay, I don't know what to tell you.

We've heard how Leslie always has a story, but with those documents on my screen right in front of her, she doesn't know what to say, those are the ones.

I just forwarded. I didn't write. Those were forwarded to.

The from you to Kiwibank to Kiwi Bank.

Okay, yeah, I remember those.

But do you think it's a bit fishy that that statement looks the same as the other one and it was forwarded from you to I haven't really.

Looked at him looked at him, but if you want to send him to me, I mean, I can give you an answer right now. But yeah, it kind of looks sishy, but I don't know like what to say.

Okay, cool, Okay. Leslie specifically is that she was just forwarding things on to Kiwibank. I know who sent them to her. It was her old mate, Eric t Weiss Esquire. He's the lawyer Leslie would use for her bank headmin as well as her supposed book and movie deal. The guy, we're pretty damn sure doesn't exist. I want to ask about Eric, but I want to start gently. Can you tell me about your lawyer, Eric t Weiss?

Okay, what about him?

What's his deal?

He's just my attorney, that's all. I mean.

I haven't talked to him in a few years. But yeah, that's that's about it.

Why.

I tried to look up a lawyer called Eric t Weiss and I noticed that you're one he.

Hit Los Angeles.

Uh huh, Okay, could you put me in touch with him? Do you think sure?

I mean if I have his phone numbers?

So, like I said, I haven't talked to him in a couple of years, but I can give you the last known number for him.

I'd be happy to no problem.

Leslie's sticking with her story about Eric, so I'm thinking I can roll with this. So Eric t Weiss, he it was helping you. You were writing a book, right, mm hmmm. And what ended up happening with that?

Never got published? Actually? Yeah?

And what was that? The story of your life?

Story of my life?

H Can you tell me about what happened with it?

No, it just never got published.

We we actually sent it out to a few publishers and I think about ten or twelve just got you know, it's it's a chance you take. I don't know, like what to say?

Okay? Cool? And just on the letter that was sent from Eric t Weiss to Kiwibank. Along with these statements in the email, it gave a phone number for Kiwibanks to call if they had any questions, and that was actually the number for your parents place in California, What do you make of that.

It was the same phone number?

No, I don't know, uh uh why and so why did kiwibank.

Not call and verify?

They did, and they spoke to somebody, So I was wondering who they would have spoken to that.

It can't be possible.

There's no way that my parents would like pretend to be somebody, if that's what you're trying to say.

That number is still in the white pages listed for Lesley's parents. I'm just asking the questions, you know, So I'm just trying, can I see that or that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, sir, because that's.

Super weird to have a to have my parents' address as Eric's contact information. And it's also the bank advisor actually spoke with Eric on three different occasions when I was sitting in his office, the bank guy that gave us a loan, so he would have had the number, the direct number.

You mean he spoke with the Eric ts.

Yeah, yeah, he had to have, I mean to you know, get all the financing and get all the approvals and all.

That kind of stuff, you know.

Yeah, exactly, and it wasn't just like coming from me, like he had to get He had to verify all the information. I mean, we went through like a ten to twelve days period work. He had to basically take all the information and verify it, make sure everything was like kosher, you know what I mean.

So just a second ago, she was saying she could have revealed her finances more, but now she's saying everything was kosher. I just showed you that the statement that he used to show that didn't even add up.

I understand, Yeah, I know, I see what you're saying. But I'm also saying that the bank that gave Greg and I the loan, he verified all that information, not just through me, like he had to call all of the financial institutions in order to verify those funds in order to give us alone.

I want to steer things over to Lesley's parents, Bitty and Andrew. Okay, I'd love to have a chat to them about what they know about everything as well. If would that be okay, I don't know.

I mean, I'll have to ask him.

I'll be happy to I mean, you know, I mean, it's been a long time, and I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with it. They always liked you, they always liked Greg, I mean, you know, and they were sad that, you know, stuff happened the way they did.

There's more I could ask about her parents, but I really those questions can be easy to deflect, and before Leslie baals, I want to keep hitting as many topics as I can. You told me all about your trust fund and your bar and Hawaii and all of that stuff, Like what was the deal with all that?

True? That was true?

I mean I had my bar in Hawaii, at my bar in salth Lake Tayle, I owned a restaurant up here in Pastor Robless.

I mean, none of that was lies.

Interesting, she feels the need to specify none of that was lies. Now that she's brought up some of her past businesses, I ask about them. Starting with Hawaii, Lizli says her problems there happened because she's a mainlander.

If you do a lot of.

Research on Hawaii Ali, you'll know what it's like to be a howie and go over to those islands and try and be successful there with the local Hawaiian people. And you can pretty much ask anybody that you'll get the same story. So like Hawaii is a very gnarly place. It's you can't go there and kind of I guess, look at me type of person, which I did. You know that the story I told you completely true, And it's happened to several other people.

If I remember rightly, some people kind of like came. You told me that they came to like sort of break into your place, broke.

Into my house.

Police reports are even over there on that broke into my house.

I head under the bed. I've had a lot of trauma.

You mentioned there was a police report. I've actually got a police report from that you filed there about the place getting broken into and a ring being stolen and you found a knife on your pillow case. So are you saying that that was a different incident or.

That's one of the incidents.

I'm not really sure. Actually how many reports the police actually filed. I'm actually really surprised that one was even there. So, yeah, there were several incidences where I called the police more than once, Holly, more than once, begging for support, begging for them to actually, you know, take care of the situation as far as that that situation was concerned, and

But life is life, you know.

And you got to you got to move forward from it and and learn from your mistakes and try to be a better person. And that's what I'm trying to do in my life. And I'm really sorry that Greg and I never got the closure, you know, but I really do wish that he would have given me that at least and came and talked to me and asked me the story instead of you.

I mean, I'm glad to see you.

But as Leslie becomes philosophical with life is life to be honest, for a moment, I'm kind of with her. Her sort of shit happens attitude is pretty disarming when it's off the cuff in the car park. But then I remember, I've heard a lot of allegations from a lot of people. I need to ask her about them. Yeah, I mean, there's just lots of questions I have around you know, people have said that you've sort of forged checks in the past and signed other people's checks for them.

Wow? Sign other people's checks for them? Oh, I would love to know who said that.

Now, And that's when I start to get into a sort of allegation response ping pong. Starting with this stuff about checks. Firstly, the Brazilian curfer called Georges, who told the cops Leslie had stolen his checkbook and charged up thirteen grand.

No, absolutely not.

I'd have no idea what he's talking about on that, But for him to say I stole a checkbook now, he actually stole money from me on a surfboard.

She refers to Georges by his nickname Joker Joe.

Didn't even have any money, so I don't even know what he's talking about as far as checks are concerned.

Georges stands by what he told the cops and says he never took anything from Leslie. There was also the other guy in Hawaii, Scott, who told the police Leslie had stolen his credit card and checks.

If he's who I believe, he is, older, gentleman with gray hair. He actually gave me a credit card when I was over there in Hawaii, and this is this is true story. He gave me a credit card to buy supplies for the restaurant, and I went and I bought supplies for the restaurant.

Would not sleep with.

Him, So then he turned around and called the police and said I stole the credit card and bought the girl with it.

That is exactly what happened. Checks were ever involved. He never wrote me a check, nothing.

So what about Tahoe where it seems like there was some disputes with the landlord of her bar over unpaid rent.

I have no clue that would buy you between my dad and him. I don't know. My name wasn't listed on that was it?

Yes? It is, Yeah, I have no clue.

Never went to court up there ever once.

So I got in trouble for a traffic violation up there, but that's it.

I figure it might be harder for her to explain what happened when she got hit with charges related to check fraud. What about in San Diego and Oceanside No. Two thousand and three.

No, I think I had some charge.

There was some bank situation, but it got dropped. It was nothing that I did wrong, It was nothing illegal.

You ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor for that. It was a burglary charge after six felony counts.

I did not admit guilt to that charge.

Actually, actually the charges got dropped on that situation because it was a checking account that it was open in my name and it was just a miscommunication. That was a long time ago. I can't give you exactly the details, but no, I didn't go to jail for that. I didn't get a felony for that either. It was suspended because the charges got dropped. So if you did dig a little bit further, it would not that there's nothing on my record for.

That at all. Actually, she pleaded guilty to one of those charges. But I press on. I want to know about Cameron, the phenomenal owner from last episode. Did Leslie forge his checks?

No? Absolutely not. And if he's saying that, then he can come and tell me that to my face.

It's hard to nail down the details on these things while I'm just lingering next to her car. I want to make sure Leslie feels like she'll get a fair hearing when we meet tomorrow.

So if you want to meet, if you want to meet me, or give me a ring and we can maybe go have coffee or something and finish us up.

I will do that for sure.

That would be great. I would really appreciate that. And then you know, you'd be I'll be able to show you some of the stuff I've got and you can take me through it.

That would be fine. I'd be happy to do that, really, Ellie.

All right, Leslie, oh, shake your hand. I'm sorry to bail you off on your way out of Okay.

No, you know what, I'm not shocked. I'm not shocked at all.

Really actually thinking about you the other day, Yeah, I was, I don't know, You've kind of popped in my head a few days ago, maybe about a week ago or so, and I was kind of wondering how you were doing and how far you went with your life and stuff, and you know, I think often of New Zealand.

And yeah, so I'm not shocked at all, and I'm not mad.

So you know, there's a lot of things in my life, Ali, that I've done that I'm super proud of, and there's some stuff that I've done that I'm not either. But I think all of us have, you know, And one is one one of my biggest regrets is not being able to go back to New Zealand and settle stuff the way an adult should be able to have the opportunity to do.

It occurs to me that I've asked about stuff from the past, But what does she think of what I'm doing here? I'm making a podcast which is about everything with you and my family. And then obviously I've been sort of, you know, looking into what's been happening with you over the last you know, twenty odd years or so. So what do you think of that?

I think that if that's something you want to do, go for it. You know, I'm not insulted.

I'm not intimidated by it at all. You know, you do what you want to do. Okay. I'm honestly, I have nothing to.

Hide, and I will be as upfront with you as I possibly can, with what I can remember and with the knowledge I have.

Okay, I will.

Give you that a cool thing you might like as I've approached Alyssa Milano to play the role of you.

Oh you did really? Ah, thank you, that's pretty funny. Thank you.

Okay, let's talk tomorrow. Okay, thank you.

You guys. Have a good one, okay, all right, take care for okay, thank you to take care.

We'll be right back.

Wow. Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her. I'm walking. I've been looking at these statements and you know, forgeries and everything for like quite literally months, and in that conversation, I'm standing here like, Okay, well that seems legit. And I really hope that Leslie will meet with me tomorrow to talk through some of the stuff. Oh man, here's Simon. Do you want to jump out of the car in a weird way? I was just saying, she's very convincing.

Are you flipped now?

She's very convincing, cool as ice. She did cry at one point, and she said that she really loved Greg and she was really disappointed he didn't fight for her.

Yeah.

I mean, I can't really comment on that because I don't know what to believe for it. We've just spent the last four or five days of people just showing us fake, fake, fake stuff that she did, so it's hard to really believe anything she says.

But I don't know, Like.

She was with Greg for a couple of years, you know, so I'm sure she has feelings for him. It's probably impossible not to, you know.

I'm just amazed at how friendly. She was, and she was giving, and she had a lot of nice things to say about me, And she was even at the end there saying, ah, I was thinking of you just the other day, and you know that. Her big disappointment is she can't come back to New Zealand now because Dad told her that she would be arrested.

Because she committed fraud.

The thing is, when I was showing her stuff and she's like, you know, she was doing the shaggy wasn't me? You know, I'm like, but I caught you in the fake bank statement. Wasn't me? And what do you say to that? At this point? Yeah, just one second party. I'm gonna be sure no one else is on the internet that night, Simon and I call Greg. It could be tough for him to hear, but we want to play him some of what Leslie said.

I never got clothes, I never got to say goodbye to your brother.

I truly loved him.

So anyways, do.

You think that's real, real feelings?

I'd like to think so. But in little Yeah Partami says, yeah, but I don't know the fact she had formed before I was around. Nah, how do you explain so many victims like you know what, was it just one mistake or is she just like a fucking serial offender? And it's hard not to see how she's not. It goes back to what she just said in the car. There

Greg isn't completely without sympathy for Leslie, but for the most part, his sympathies lie elsewhere. We've beaped out Cameron's real name here.

So I'd imagine she's having a pretty shit night. But for me, it's just a little bit about other people too. You know, it's not just about me. I guess what I mean by that is, you know is what what would say? What would the Brazilian guy and Brazil say and all these other people? You know, I would just be like, fuck, she said.

The same ship to me too, Greg, Like I said last night, Bro, you've been super brave just even entertaining this thing. You've been honest and put yourself out there, wore your heart on your sleeve, bro, And you're the one that's actually worn this arguably harder than Mum and dad even So mate, good on your brother.

I love you, yeah, I mean you guys, yeah, just I think it's pretty amazing what you guys have done. And you guys have done this for us right as well, so you know, right back at you to Today was a big day, man, that's a big day.

Yeah, bro, big day. I don't know what to make of it all yet. Leslie was as cool as a cucumber in a couple of ice cubes. But I know lots of what she said melts away when I show her evidence. If she shows up tomorrow, maybe she'll admit more next episode. So I sent Leslie a text suggesting that we meet up at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at, and she's just sent me a text back. So here it is, hi, Ollie, and good morning. It

This kind of existence must be traumatic and fucking sad and just tolerable.

I'll need some help to understand that they're motivated in the sense of power over other people, control over other people's lives and over ninety percent of cases, true connartists are repeat offenders and give them the opportunity to go straight, so to speak.

They don't take it.

That's next time for the final chapter of Snowball. Binge episodes of deep Cover presents Snowball early and ad free with a Pushkin Plus subscription. Fine Pushkin Plus on the deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm slash Plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers can access ad free episodes, full audio books, and exclusive binges of other true crime podcasts throughout the year.