Karen (00:00.828)
things back because we want people to feel like they're spying on a conversation. You know, so you can ask me how dumb I am about growing up without an LGBT community at large understanding things and all that. So it's fine. So I'm going to introduce Hey, this is Deconversion Therapy podcast and it's Pride Month. Happy Pride.
April and Beecher (00:07.342)
Great.
Perfect.
Karen (00:28.86)
To everyone, we're recording this at the beginning of the month, but today I have with me April and Beacher. And if you don't recognize April, I don't know where you've been. And I feel like I know Beacher because he shows up in her videos. And I'm a little taken aback because Beacher is looking at me like they've never seen me. And I'm like, listen, we know each other. I've seen you.
So we're deep. Anyway, would you all like to introduce yourselves?
April and Beecher (01:04.462)
Sure, I'm April, otherwise known as April Ajoy on the interwebs. And I make silly content like Ex -Angelical type videos online. And my name is Beacher, also known as April Ajoy's spouse. I am a non -binary filmmaker and professor at the University of Kentucky.
Karen (01:27.484)
Awesome. And let me just understand Beecher for a minute. What is your favorite movie? This is going to say everything right here.
April and Beecher (01:35.726)
So my favorite movie I saw when I was in seventh grade, I was just flipping through the channels and I started watching this movie on TBS and it was called The Shawshank Redemption and it was just absolutely mind blowing by the end and I was like, wow, I want to make movies. So that was kind of the seminal like movie that I saw that just blew my mind. And so it continues to still be my favorite and it's probably the movie I've seen the most as well.
Karen (01:46.332)
Okay.
Karen (02:03.452)
Yeah, okay, that we're together here because either that or Kindergarten Cop, I won't accept anything else. But I was like so worried you were going to say Jean de Florette, which is a good movie, but or something odd. So I'm glad. It's fantastic that the bodyguard Oscar Oscars. So.
April and Beecher (02:11.406)
my god.
April and Beecher (02:19.818)
Kindergarten Cups is a good reference. I also watched that many times on TV.
April and Beecher (02:27.182)
Thank you.
Karen (02:29.819)
What I wanted to bring you on here for is to sort of describe your relationship because when you all first got together, I want to hear did you get together in church or what, how long were you married until Beecher began to realize they're more non -binary and how that affected your relationship.
April and Beecher (02:54.798)
Yeah, so we met at Regent University. So not church, just Pat Robertson's school. Way different. Which is basically church with homework. Yeah, so that's where we met. Beecher was there for film school and I was there for journalism. And we kind of hit it off. We were both very, still very conservative.
Karen (03:06.011)
Gosh, Lord, PTO.
April and Beecher (03:23.342)
evangelical when we had met. And like, even when we started dating, we got really involved in a local church. Yeah. So yeah, we started off as friends, started dating a little bit. And we had about a month of really easy, smooth dating. And then about a month in, I told April about my gender dysphoria that I've had, that I had since I was in sixth grade. And she's the very first person I ever told. But of course they didn't call it.
Karen (03:23.355)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (03:40.539)
Hehehehe
Karen (03:44.794)
Okay.
April and Beecher (03:52.366)
gender dysphoria. We didn't know what that was. Yeah, so I just said, I've had a lot of thoughts. I put on my sister's clothes in sixth grade and I think about maybe, I don't know if I'm supposed to be a girl or a guy. I don't know. I just have a lot of confusion. And then April was like, well, have you done anything? And I was like, not since sixth grade when I put on my sister's clothes because I had like, going through that time in middle school, I'd really like clung to purity culture and the evangelical movement. And so I had...
Karen (03:53.563)
huh.
second.
April and Beecher (04:19.534)
I had done everything I needed to do. I'd stayed completely pure for her and I had never looked at pornography and I never explored my body in any way. I was very much like, no, I've not done anything. And she was like, well, those are just thoughts then and everybody has thoughts, everyone has temptations. And then somehow within a few months it moved to I was like, yeah, okay, because the thoughts got worse and panic attacks and anxiety because somebody knew my secret now. And then eventually it was like, okay.
Karen (04:22.971)
Yeah.
Karen (04:45.434)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (04:49.102)
this must be a demon. And April's like, great, it's probably a demon. And so then it was this ridiculous summer of a lot of difficulty. I was seeing a therapist that was kind of a Christian therapist. And then April performed some exorcisms on me. One, one exorcism that Beecher asked me to, cause I was the Pentecostal in the relationships. I was like, hey, I know how to handle a demon. Yeah.
Karen (04:52.154)
Ha ha ha.
Karen (05:08.537)
I like how I...
Yeah, we can get this out of there. Exactly. I had the demon of intellectualism cast out of me in church. and Kundalini because I did yoga once. huh. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was thinking too much and that interrupts God's spirit for because I really wanted to be slain in the spirit. I was
April and Beecher (05:25.134)
Wait, Demon of Intellectualism? That was actually what it was called?
Karen (05:37.37)
I was like you. I was pure. I did everything by the book. I was, you know, Jesus freak, all that good stuff. But I'm like watching people fall out and I'm like, God, why don't you touch me? Why don't you love me? And yeah, because you know, it's in a demons and you know, the what was it? The difference between knowing God and loving God is 12 inches from your head to your heart.
April and Beecher (05:51.694)
And of course it had to be your fault, not God's fault.
Ugh.
April and Beecher (06:06.254)
yes, I've heard that. And yes, I tried to speak and be slain in the spirit and speak in tongues for many years and nothing. I didn't have that demon. April didn't pray that demon out of me. Well, I actually had to pray about it because Beecher had never spoken in tongues and I had. And so for a while I was like, are we unequally yoked? I don't want to be the spiritual head in this relationship. But I also thought that her speaking in tongues was kind of like a superpower and I'm having a hard day. I need you to speak in tongues over me. I wish I could do it.
Karen (06:11.834)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (06:15.801)
Huh?
Karen (06:25.049)
This is same, I get it.
Karen (06:31.385)
Right.
April and Beecher (06:33.966)
Yeah, I definitely spoke in tongues as part of the exorcism. So no demons came out, by the way. It was TB. Yeah. Either they're still there or there were no demons. So yeah.
Karen (06:37.304)
Yeah.
Karen (06:42.584)
Right, right. Let's get to the end of that story. And did did your speaking in tongues sound a bit similar to where you learned how to speak in tongues or the other people? Yes. Yeah.
April and Beecher (06:56.27)
Yeah, I have like one, two sentences. It's the same stuff every time, yeah.
Karen (07:00.664)
It's so great to just watch the videos of different pastors speaking in tongues and realizing people in their congregation have the same cadence and sound. And you're like, that is very interesting. Yeah. So as someone a tad bit older, growing up, knowing I was the...
April and Beecher (07:13.966)
That is interesting. Yeah.
Karen (07:25.336)
gay man magnet and so was my co -host and she's not here but anyone who had feelings that they weren't right at our church would pull us aside, would become our friends and the same thing you know I would feel.
terrible because they were like suffering and I'd pray with them and you know, I didn't I didn't go as far as casting out demons April but
I was in a relationship with them, but I really fell in a Southern Baptist. I really felt terrible for what they were going through. And I think it wasn't until after I was married and I was working with someone, my best friend ended up being a wonderful lesbian woman and a partnership. Her partner hated me, but.
She said, do you not think I don't stay up and cry every night asking God why he did this to me? And for some reason that had never hit me my whole time. Like there was this idea that people who had different, you know, anything really different religion, different belief system that they just didn't care about God. We didn't know that they were suffering.
trying to serve God and be good. Did you go through a lot of that, Beecher?
April and Beecher (08:57.262)
Yes, yeah, I mean, I prayed a lot, middle school, high school, college, and I think the three things that I prayed the most were, God, I don't know what's wrong with me, please fix me. God, please don't let me be alone. I was very afraid of that. That was a big, big fear. And then the other one was, sorry that I'm not praying all the time. Sorry I'm not praying.
Karen (09:13.462)
yeah.
Karen (09:20.149)
enough.
April and Beecher (09:20.43)
more. Like, I think if I was praying enough, then you maybe would have fixed me. I know this is my fault. The reason you haven't fixed me is my fault, not your fault. You know, it was this really messed up, difficult logic that I just dealt with every single day for about 20 years, really from the age of 10 to 30.
Karen (09:24.917)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (09:39.509)
Right. And were you all in the name it and claim it type of so you walk around saying I am a straight white man of the patriarchy trying to like make sure you said all the right things and walk in the opposite spirit. Did you all have that upbringing?
April and Beecher (09:59.214)
Yes, April had a little bit more than me, but I had gotten into it in college and then in grad school. Obviously, Pat Robertson's university is kind of along those lines too. So, yeah, there were definitely times it was like April would pray for me or I'd be praying and she'd be like, now do you feel better? I'm like, kind of for now. She's like, well, then you're healed, just claim it. And I'd be like, yeah, but this is like five years into doing this and it comes back. And she's like, no, you just got to like, and there was a little bit of, you know.
Karen (10:07.701)
okay.
April and Beecher (10:28.558)
It was a little bit of like, okay, I'll claim it. But at a certain point, if you've claimed it with so much faith over and over and over again, it's just, it's hard to keep doing that process.
Karen (10:39.605)
Right. And April, when you said you felt you were unequally yoked, I might have laughed because I went through that too. And I mean, it's so insane. You know, the church used to interpret that as black people marrying white people.
And then once that law got passed, they're like, what else, what else? You know, so it just sort of changed into everything else. But I thought when my husband was deconstructing faster than I was, the same thing, unequally yoke. So did you think you guys would have to split or what?
April and Beecher (10:58.446)
Mm.
April and Beecher (11:20.75)
Oddly enough, the idea of us breaking up never really crossed my mind. I was kind of determined like, no, I can fix Beecher. Beecher, like, it's all a matter of praying more and reading scripture more. And, you know, I just, at that point still just really believed that whatever Beecher's issues were would be fixed because...
That was what went with my ideology at the time. Like the idea that God would just let Beecher continue struggling with their gender identity didn't make sense. Like why would God give that to Beecher and not take it away if that was not God's will? So yeah, like it's weird though. Beecher and I talk about that first year when we were dating and then engaged that it doesn't make sense why we were together.
Karen (11:51.157)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (12:17.102)
because it was really hard, like stupid hard. I don't know why we made it work, but we just felt like God's called us to be together and we can overcome. We were also really in love. I mean, the datings, April was the first person I really, really fell in love with. And when I was with her in person, it was great. It was just like, this is great. But as soon as we get apart, that's when the anxiety and the panic attack, all the stuff, and I'd be like, I gotta break up with her. I can't keep doing this process.
Karen (12:17.365)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Karen (12:27.445)
Yes. Yeah.
Karen (12:37.717)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (12:46.094)
And then I'd get in person and we'd try to have those conversations and we'd just be like, but why? We couldn't, it was a very confusing dating season for us. But I did, I got to a place through therapy that I kind of got my head above water where I could function and then was doing a little better. And then I did propose within a year of us starting dating, I proposed.
And then April said yes, and then we were married like seven months after that. So about a year and a half into dating, even though it was a really rough year and a half, we got married at the end of it because I was very much, we were very much wanting to physically be with each other, but we were saving that for marriage. And so I think we rushed into the marriage decision, even if we maybe mentally and emotionally weren't ready, but we both were very much wanting to be physically intimate with each other. And so it was like, well, like,
Karen (13:17.845)
Right.
Karen (13:24.181)
Boom, yes. Yeah.
April and Beecher (13:40.046)
Yeah, like we, I can't keep just dating you. I'm too much in love with you. We have to get married. Even though looking back, I definitely think taking a little bit. Don't let your passions burn. I think taking a little bit more time to wrap our heads around a few things probably would have been a little easier. I will say too, I was 26 when we got married, which is like ancient in Christianity. Like all my friends had been married already and I was like, I'm never going to be married. I've been single forever. So there was, there was that too. I was 24. So not quite.
Karen (13:56.501)
Mm -hmm. I know.
Karen (14:03.349)
I'm sorry.
April and Beecher (14:08.494)
there, but I was the one that was very much wanting to get married so we could be intimate. Yes, procreate.
Karen (14:13.717)
procreate and do what the Bible says. You know, I just did an interview with Holy Ghosting and talked about my husband, my relationship and there's so many parallels with April. I haven't even told her about like how similar we are but
When my husband, I met him on the mission field, he's Australian. So if we even wanted to kiss, we'd go and get married. But we felt the same. God wanted us together, we do, do, do. When we had the difficulties and I thought I'd have to divorce him, what kept us together was the ideals of the church and not divorcing. And I feel if I didn't have those,
we would have divorced, although now, you know, I'm like, all those ideals are stupid, but it was what kept us going, never divorce, never divorce, and getting through like the difficult times. When you said, you know, you were bringing things from the church into the marriage, were you thinking like, one, you already said you're gonna help cure a beacher, but,
Also, the whole thing of we're special because God is going to use this as a great testimony or all that that this was. Yeah, you're nodding. You can say the words.
April and Beecher (15:41.678)
We told ourselves all the narratives. I mean, this was... We even said too, like, divorce is not in our vocabulary. Yeah. There was, I mean, I got married when I was 24. When I was 30, I finally started seeing a therapist that specialized in gender identity. So it was six years of really difficult, a really difficult time. And we told ourselves every narrative you could think of. When the demon thing didn't work, we're like, well, maybe it's just...
Karen (15:49.749)
That's right.
Karen (15:58.517)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (16:06.901)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (16:10.478)
an addiction to women's clothes, or maybe it's this is what God's going to use as a testimony when you are healed, or all the things. And yeah, we told, and I will say that when I look back, we really, I think divorce was maybe mentioned one time in our whole dating around the gender identity issue, but it was quickly like, I'm sorry, that was said, and we didn't really talk about it seriously at all after that.
Karen (16:30.997)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (16:39.31)
But I will say the one thing that was there, and I would say maybe I got this from the church, is every time I would do anything, I would feel so guilty that I would immediately tell April about it. So I did a lot of things wrong. April would probably admit to saying she handled things, a lot of things wrong and made our lives pretty difficult. But the one thing that was there is we were very honest and we told each other everything. I wasn't doing anything behind April's back. I would, I would...
Karen (16:50.005)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (17:08.846)
Say I'm having a really difficult day, I feel like I might be like, I'm really drawn to getting your clothes, like trying some of your clothes because we are the same height and the same waist size. So, you know, it was like I married someone that I can wear her clothes. You know, I would say I'm having a hard day and then she'd get home and I'd be like, yeah, I put on one of your dresses and I'm really sorry. And she'd be like, well, thanks for telling me it's okay. And then try not to do it again, you know? So over time, it kind of eased up as far as the amount of guilt, but it was still enough.
and I felt like I should tell her every time. So I would say that's kind of the saving grace is that while there were definitely issues, there weren't trust issues. And I think from my friends that kind of went on a gender journey in a committed relationship, the thing I've kind of seen, and this isn't all the time, is that the ones that oftentimes can't work are the ones where one of the spouses was doing something for five, six, seven years and then said,
by the way, and then, you know, that's, because it's a trust thing. It's not just the gender thing, it's also a trust. Right, so when Beacher came out a few years ago, it wasn't a surprise. Like I knew they were on a search already. The hard part when we were first married was that neither of us really had anybody to talk to, because we were both, Beacher was working full time at a church. I think I was, I had eventually started working at CBN, Pat Robertson again.
Karen (18:05.301)
right.
Karen (18:24.533)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (18:33.509)
Yep. Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (18:33.774)
so there was not, there was just no space for this issue. Like we didn't even have the language for what it was. and any, you know, and anytime, if I did confide in a friend that was from, you know, a small group or a church, cause that was all of our friends. you know, it would just be like, this is dangerous. You know, it sounds like demonic activity. And so we just kind of got to the point where we stopped talking about it at church.
Karen (18:44.885)
Exactly.
Karen (18:56.661)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (19:02.382)
We went to all the church marriage conferences and events. And every time we went, we just left feeling more isolated and weird because they were like, wives do this and husbands do this. And even outside of Beecher's gender identity, I never really felt like I fit in a typical like woman domesticated box. And so I never wanted to...
Karen (19:11.765)
Yeah.
Karen (19:19.349)
right.
Karen (19:26.101)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (19:29.038)
you know, necessarily follow my own gender roles. and so it was a lot of back and forth of like, are we just weird? You know, and I remember like, too, I think I even said this to Beecher too, it was like, why can't you just have a normal problem? Like being addicted to porn, like every other husband out there.
Karen (19:44.075)
Right? Yep. Yep. And it's interesting because it's very rare that you don't hide some of the things you were doing and it builds up as you know, but it's also very rare that you both felt like you didn't fit.
Like if one of you felt like you fit in that traditional church role, but it seems like you both were like, we're both weirdos here. You know, we're not the Proverbs 31 wife and the, you know, this and that, which I always find interesting that all marriage advice is given by three bachelors, you know, God, Jesus, Paul, but the, the whole thing about it seems like you both were still on that.
April and Beecher (20:28.526)
That's great.
Karen (20:34.953)
quote soulmate journey, but not knowing how to fit the parts in correctly or I'm not sure. So tell me about Beacher when you and April when Beacher came out, how did you do it? How did people react?
April and Beecher (20:56.046)
So I'll say that it was kind of June of the pandemic, so 2020, when I hit a really low point. And so after six years of trying to deal with this and April seeing it, having a front row seat for it, I think, you know, I just hit a point where I said, I don't think I can do another 10, 20 years of this. Like I just, I maybe could do another year or two, but like, I'm not going to make it very long. Like this is, this is.
Karen (21:02.633)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (21:18.148)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (21:24.078)
So I hit a really low point when I think when April saw how much I was struggling, I wasn't eating, I was very, very depressed. It was finally like, okay, Beacher, I think I told April, I have to find answers. I don't know if it means I'll have to do anything or I'll have to change anything, but I've got to find answers. Because up until this point, I pretty much knew about trans women, I knew about gay men, I knew about...
Karen (21:31.112)
Right.
April and Beecher (21:50.574)
you know, obviously cisgender men that just kind of have kinks. And I was like, I don't know where I fall in any of this. Like I'm so confused and lost. And so I was like, I've got to go to somebody that has answers. I'd been to therapists before, but I hadn't been to anyone that specialized with anything with gender identity. So they were just kind of like, they would literally, I'd go and they'd literally be like, this is an area I specialize in. You should go over here. I was like, no, I like the fact that you don't specialize in it because I don't feel like you're pushing me or controlling me or you know, any of that stuff. So I wanted that, but then I needed.
Karen (22:15.784)
Gotcha.
April and Beecher (22:17.518)
So I found a great therapist in Chattanooga that was a very progressive, kind of open -minded Christian that came from similar circles, but she pretty much 80 % of her clientele are trans people. And so I started that journey and about six months into it, I was like, my gosh, I'm non -binary. I feel so at peace with that, that I don't have this pressure of trying to fit either of these boxes.
because I think so much of the pressure was like, well, if I transition to live as a woman, that's also pressure to try to fit in this box. And I think once I finally said, I'm not gonna have this anxiety trying to choose between these two options because I'm just gonna be myself and live outside of these boxes. And once I kind of did that, I just felt an immense peace. And I told April in October and she was like, and this was October, 2020. And she's like, okay, cool. Do you have to tell anybody else?
Karen (22:48.522)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (23:09.038)
And I was like, yeah, like I want to. And she's like, well, why? And it was a lot of like, like, okay, let's non -binary. That's cool. Just let's, let's keep it quiet. And I was like - Well also because Beecher worked at a conservative college at the time, which was our livelihood. And so I'm thinking very practically, but also like my whole, our, both of our families are pretty conservative Christian. you know, some of our more close family has become more progressive, but extended family.
Karen (23:14.697)
Get it.
Karen (23:22.857)
Mm. Right.
April and Beecher (23:37.614)
still very conservative. We had deconstructed a lot, really starting with Trump, but we deconstructed a lot by this point. So personally, April had deconstructed a lot. We were still in a lot of circles that she just, she had a good sense of what we were going to lose if I came out. And so her idea was to once again, just try to kind of... It was that, but also I still wasn't fully, like I wanted Beecher to be happy and find their peace.
Karen (23:38.857)
Right.
Karen (23:52.489)
Yeah.
Karen (24:02.953)
Right.
April and Beecher (24:03.438)
But I was like, why do we have to bring other people in it? Because as a preacher's kid, you're trained from an early on to really care what other people think. And I was, I, it was not a healthy reason to not do it, but I was just really anxious about what people would think of me and Beacher and like, yeah. So there was.
Karen (24:07.977)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (24:23.502)
there was a lot of fear around me not wanting Beacher to come out. And I think I had some of those fears, but it was overridden by this immense peace and happiness that I was feeling. And I'm like, but I've got to tell people. Like, this is the answer I've been seeking for 20 years. Like, we can be smart about it. And I was just very, very excited. And so, yeah, I told my family, close family, that October, right after I kind of realized that I was non -binary. And then it was about a year and a half from that point.
Karen (24:25.896)
Of course.
Karen (24:33.096)
Right.
April and Beecher (24:52.11)
that I came out publicly. By the time I came out publicly, I'd had conversations with about 50 friends and family individually, telling them a story, until talking to them and answering questions they might have. And then by the time I came out, my core group of people had known about it for months at minimum. But then I came out in February of 2022. And then that time, right before I came out, I informed the administration at the university I was teaching at, and they asked me to leave.
Karen (24:57.895)
Wow.
April and Beecher (25:21.774)
but they gave me basically six months of pay and benefits for not working. And they didn't say it. And for not telling. They didn't say it overtly. I didn't sign an NDA, but it was kind of an unwritten, like, we're going to take care of you for six months because we really appreciate you not making this a big PR thing. You know, it was very much that. And I was like, well, I got to pay my bills and feed my family. So, okay, give me take the money. And then I, so yeah, so then I came out, like I said, February of 2022 and I've been out. So.
Karen (25:33.35)
Right.
Karen (25:39.462)
Yeah. Yeah.
April and Beecher (25:51.182)
but not for a little over two years. Gosh, that's it. That's crazy. Sorry. It feels like it's been a lifetime. It really does. The amount of life that I'm living and feeling and experiencing is just, it feels like a decade. I don't know how to, it feels, it's great.
Karen (26:04.358)
I bet. And how did you react April? Did you have to go with Beecher to all the places where they were telling their friends? Did you were you like, I don't want to talk about it and then have to say it 50 times.
April and Beecher (26:22.51)
It depended on the day and who it was. For my mom, I was there for it. Beecher's parents, I think a couple times I was there because I think they wanted reassurance that I wasn't going to leave. That's what I think. I think I did a lot of the conversations alone. And then afterwards, they would check in with April and like, April, you know about this and you're okay with this? Is your marriage okay? So April had to field those questions. But I was doing most of the coming out.
Karen (26:24.455)
Yeah, right.
Karen (26:36.39)
Right.
Karen (26:47.43)
Gotcha.
April and Beecher (26:50.478)
deep, heavy conversations one -on -one. Yeah. And I fielded a lot from like my family if they had additional questions, which was mainly just like my mom and my brother's extended family didn't really reach out. But yeah, by the time Beacher came out, I was pretty much like very supportive and affirming. It took time to get to that point. And I think Beacher probably would have come out earlier if I had been ready earlier. But...
Karen (26:55.462)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (27:18.533)
God's timing. You just have to wait. Yeah.
April and Beecher (27:19.594)
Yeah. Yeah. More like April's timing. but yeah. So, but once Beecher did come out, we did hit some, there was like some extended family that we were semi close to on both sides, but not like super close that, you know, kind of try to draw lines in the sand to say, well, you know, my grand children will not be allowed around Beecher or our kids.
Karen (27:35.14)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (27:45.806)
in some instances because they thought our kids would be a bad influence. Yeah, but I mean, not that I need to get into all the weeds, but what I'd done is I picked out the 50 people that I felt like kind of covered every corner of like my friends and family that I wanted to keep in my life. And so it was really just the next kind of extension that had a really hard time with it. People that don't have personal relationships with that I didn't sit down and talk to for an hour, they just see an announcement video and they're like, what? You know, April's turn Beecher into a Democrat.
Karen (28:05.028)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (28:14.404)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (28:14.414)
yeah, from Beecher's side of the family, I a hundred percent got blamed because I had been very vocally more progressive than Beecher had up until that point. And so they were like, well, it has to be April. She did it. I was also very progressive. Like we deconstructed very quickly at the same time. I was also equally as progressive. I just wasn't saying it publicly because I was a professor and at a university, it was a Christian university and stuff. But yeah, we heard, we had all sorts of theories. The craziest theory was I had a family member.
Karen (28:18.628)
Yeah.
Karen (28:22.884)
right.
Karen (28:33.636)
Yeah, exactly.
April and Beecher (28:44.078)
write a letter saying that they knew that I was non -binary whenever I visited their house and watched The Walking Dead on AMC. And that, not that I was non -binary, but I watched The Walking Dead and they knew that I was allowing other spirits into me. That a demon had come out of the TV. Yes, because I watched The Walking Dead, the number one show when I was in college in the world, I watched it before streaming live and they saw it and thought, well,
Karen (29:00.324)
yeah, yeah, yeah. The TV, it just, yeah.
April and Beecher (29:11.534)
Beatrice Gonda. That was their rationale. Like, Beatrice non -binary. It was that walking dead demon. That was it.
Karen (29:12.516)
I know. Yeah. It was because I don't know what angels are doing, but they never come out of TVs. They don't attach themselves at thrift stores to things. I'm like, what the hell are they doing? These demons, they've got it. They cover all bases. Exactly. So how did it change your relationship? I know that there's
April and Beecher (29:30.542)
They're on top of it. Their marketing strategy is top tier. That's amazing.
Karen (29:42.179)
like the, well, Beacher was always Beacher and still is Beacher. Was that something that you had to do in your mind when all of this was happening or?
April and Beecher (29:53.87)
Yeah, so I try to kind of disassociate for a while. I was living in denial for the first several years because it didn't really affect me. I wasn't dealing with dysphoria. And as long as Beecher was kind of playing the part of my good Christian husband, I didn't, like, it just didn't affect me as much. And Beecher kind of kept a lot more inside early on. I mean, you would tell me, well, it would be like,
Karen (29:59.971)
Do it. Yeah.
Karen (30:04.867)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (30:13.443)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (30:22.606)
you know, there would be weeks that I wouldn't feel dysphoric and it'd be fine. And then I would have really, really difficult like three day stretch. I'd finally break. I'd finally do something. April would come home. I'd tell her about it. It'd be a five minute conversation. So I might be dealing with it for three full days. April knows about it, but is dealing with it for 10 minutes. And so she's like, okay. Well, glad you're better. Move on. And that was, so it was, yeah, it was a little easier. But the turning point, I guess, when I...
Karen (30:37.25)
Right.
Karen (30:40.77)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (30:51.694)
The part that changed was I was really holding on to Beecher being like my male husband for a while. I was just like, no, this can be fixed until Beecher got to this really, really dark place. And I realized, okay, Beecher may not live much longer if they don't change. And so I had agreed to go to therapy, which Beecher had been trying to get me to go for a while. And I just didn't, I had two little children.
Karen (30:59.074)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (31:19.598)
at home. I had a million excuses, regardless. I just didn't do it. And so finally I was like, you know what, I want to go to therapy too. Because also parallel with this was our sex life was fine, but I had a lot of scars from purity culture, which is a whole other topic. And so we kind of used sex as a bandaid of like, look, we're having sex. So we're doing our good Christian duty. We're fine. We're having sex a normal amount.
Karen (31:21.73)
Right.
Karen (31:39.426)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (31:46.818)
right.
April and Beecher (31:49.518)
but it wasn't like amazing by any means. I didn't have an orgasm until I was 32. Like maybe that's TMI, but at that point before I'd gone to therapy, I had never had one. And I kind of bought into the idea that female pleasure wasn't really a thing. it really mattered that Beecher was being pleased and I was doing that part fine. and to be fair, right. And to be fair, Beecher was very much like, can I please you? Like, do you, and I just.
Karen (32:08.61)
Right. Spread that seed beacher. Do your.
April and Beecher (32:17.454)
I couldn't get there. I had too much shame. And for me, just kind of the way that I work is I want to connect emotionally during intimacy. And that's like the priority for me. And April had so much, so many scars from purity culture that she was like, no, let's just get it over with. And so I wasn't fulfilled. She's thinking she's fulfilling me, but I'm like, this isn't fulfilling me. This isn't what I, this is not what I want to get out of this. And she's like,
Karen (32:28.354)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (32:40.834)
it.
April and Beecher (32:46.99)
She's obviously not happy with it. And so I remember, you know, after kind of I came out as non, I came out to April's non -binary and then October of 2020. And I think it was like January or February that April's like, I just don't know. I don't know if, if I can be attracted to, I'm worried that I can't be attracted to you and that if you start presenting more feminine publicly and even around the house, that it'll mess up our sex life. And that was, I think a moment that I was just like,
are you happy with our sex life? Because we're six years into this. And she was like, no. And I'm like, well, I'm not happy with it. So like, what is there to ruin? Let's figure out like how we can make this work as our real selves. And that's when April was like, okay, I'm going to go and see if I can be attracted. She could be attracted to me and see if she could, you know, get to a place where she can enjoy intimacy. Which was why I initially went. Like Beecher's gender identity was kind of a...
Karen (33:23.49)
right.
April and Beecher (33:41.934)
That was like the next problem. But for me, like my route was like, I gotta, I gotta undo this, this purity culture. I literally found a therapist and I was like, I want to have an orgasm and I need to like, I need to figure out a way to get out of my head so that I don't feel shame every time I have sex, like every time I have married sex, cause I shouldn't feel that.
Karen (33:44.482)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (33:51.554)
Right.
Karen (34:00.738)
Listen, I don't know how old I am and my husband's the same. 56, 57, 57. Still, fucking still. We talk about how messed up we were from purity culture and like you're just unpacking it all the time and we're going to be talking about that next month. But when people go through that and then you add on.
the extra quote shame of what Beecher is going through. Like I can imagine how messed up it is and your vagina probably just closing up. You know, you're just sort of like how do, how do we get beyond this? Did that therapist help you both to connect better with sex?
April and Beecher (34:42.094)
No.
April and Beecher (34:54.382)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it definitely worked for me. I realized, because I also have assault like in my past too. So there was a lot, there was a lot working against me. but yeah, she recommended reading this book called come as you are by Emily Negosky, I think a game changer. and then just like, I mean, it was a process and it took me like loving myself.
Karen (35:00.45)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
April and Beecher (35:17.806)
a few times before it actually worked because Beecher was kind of a deterrent for awhile. Not, not their fault. just any person, any person. Right. And even me initially, I couldn't even do it with just me the first several times because shame. but yeah, eventually, worked at it. highly recommended vibrator. If people are women are struggling out there with that. and yeah, fully working now. And so.
Karen (35:18.018)
Mm -hmm. Right.
April and Beecher (35:46.606)
Fully operational. Fully operational.
Karen (35:47.778)
Awesome. That's the next video on deconversion. That's the thing, like even having an orgasm and then going like, okay, Beacher, I'm going to like your physical countenance and letting them see you have an orgasm. There's even shame in that. Like I remember just the shame of, you know, it's fucking ridiculous. It's crazy.
April and Beecher (35:51.662)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (36:09.806)
Yeah.
Karen (36:16.738)
So do you think your sex life improved with Beacher being able to express themselves publicly also? Did that intertwine?
April and Beecher (36:28.942)
Yeah, well, I, cause I think Beacher being willing to figure themselves out helped me figure myself out. Cause also in this process, I realized I'm bisexual, which should not have been a surprise because I had always been attracted to some of my female friends. I just thought every straight girl was that just seemed.
Karen (36:34.626)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (36:40.674)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (36:53.454)
Which honestly was why I believed that being gay was a choice for so long. Cause it just made sense for me. Like, yeah, I could choose that if I so wanted. Yeah. Right. So, but yeah, I, I mean, our sex life definitely improved since like Beecher gave me the freedom to be myself because when I saw Beecher kind of shoving themselves in a closet, or the church doing it really kind of.
Karen (36:57.277)
Mm -hmm.
I'm right. But I can push it down like every other good Christian. Yeah.
Karen (37:14.877)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (37:23.31)
also encouraged me to do the same with myself. It was like, well, if Beecher's doing that, I can do that too. And I can just not have a satisfying sex life because I don't need it. I don't need that. I can just go without. But then seeing Beecher find fulfillment and being their authentic self was really inspiring for me to do the same. And so, yeah, I think when you have two authentic people being authentic with each other, it only improves intimacy.
Yeah, and as you kind of, we've all kind of mentioned, I think, you know, we're just, we have a sex life that we're very open and honest about what we want and what we're, how we're feeling. And that just makes for a really vulnerable and beautiful and emotional connection that just wasn't there because for so long, April was dealing with shame from purity culture. I was dealing with shame from, you know, this feminine side of me that I'd stuffed down. And so we just, yeah, we're just ourselves now.
Karen (38:16.091)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (38:23.246)
And it's, I can't, I mean, in general, not just in intimacy, but in general, the best way I say my life before I came out in the life now that I'm fully myself is just like, I feel like for 20 years I was living below ground. Like I was seeing life and I was seeing everything through a window, but I wasn't feeling it. I wasn't experiencing it. And then when I came out, it's just like I'm above ground. And I look back and think, how in the world did I last 20 years down there?
Like, I don't, the idea of going back down there for a day is like anxiety inducing and it's just like, wow, how? And like, I, yeah, so it just, it spreads to everything. And I think, you know, it took work for April and myself. I mean, I went to roughly 10 years of therapy. April went for a couple years and we really had to dig in and work through difficult things. And why are we doing this? And why am I trying to fit this mold? Why are you trying to fit this? And, you know, it's...
Karen (38:54.779)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (39:19.79)
It took work, but I think that's one reason that we're able to make it and our marriage is doing so well as we both put in a lot of work. Yeah.
Karen (39:27.547)
Yeah. And let me emphasize to the people listening, you all are also in the South and it is a different layer that my friends up North and other places seriously can't wrap their minds around about how exclusive this, you know, Southern Christianity is to people that don't fit exactly in that. And it...
can damage your careers, relationship, your kids. You know, we went through a really hard time raising our kids in the South for a bit, but now they're cool. But all of that layered on top of it, that's a really rough road that you both went through and it's very rare you came out together and I like our listeners to hear that. We have young listeners who message and just don't know what to do.
You know, they're still at home and I'm just like, man, come on, 18, come on, 18, so they can they can leave. But this does give people hope. Tell me I'm going to ask some stupid questions. All right. Beatrice, like, I'm ready. OK, for people. So what you said about you didn't have the language for non -binary. And.
April and Beecher (40:44.59)
Let's go.
Karen (40:53.563)
you know, when April and I were together last month or so, and there was another, you know, my age person there, we were talking about how even bisexuality was not part of our culture, our understand there was gay or straight. That's it. And the gay guy did not go to prom. You know, that that's all we remember. So it was not something where we could even think.
April and Beecher (41:15.598)
wow.
Karen (41:22.17)
I wonder if I am and you wonder would I be differently if I had that kind of openness or not openness, but just knowledge. It's so different for different generations to understand some of the things and it's going to be very interesting when you all start seeing a younger generation saying things that you're like, what the fuck?
You know, you just are like, where's this? What's happening? But I think for people my age and people who just are leaving the church now, they don't understand a lot of the precepts. And one, that you can have different than straight sexuality and be monogamous. Is this true? I have heard this. Okay.
April and Beecher (42:12.622)
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Karen (42:14.936)
But do you also not abuse children? Because I've heard that. I've heard that. Yeah. OK. All right. So I guess it is a choice is what you're saying. No. These are things that now get revealed so much. But those were the things, especially with older people and with the non -binary, the they -them. Man, as someone, you know.
April and Beecher (42:20.782)
Yeah, we also do not do that. Yeah. No, don't do any of that.
Karen (42:41.496)
with an English degree, I'm like, that's plural, that's plural. You know, it's very hard. And I want to know what does it mean? Does it mean you feel both or you feel neither? Because our generation and older are very label focused.
We don't understand things without being able to see a pattern and with saying, are you a Christian? Are you not a Christian? Are you straight? You know, so how would you explain non -binary?
April and Beecher (43:14.51)
Okay, yeah, great question. So I'll go back to a little bit of our story. There was a stretch there in our marriage where before I finally started seeing that therapist that helped me understand myself where I was doing green light nights. And that was something that we would call when there'd be a night about once every five or six weeks when I would get to just do my makeup and...
where I dress and shave and even wear breast forms. And I would oftentimes zoom with an affirming friend. It was in the pandemic, so we were pretty much like, you know. And so this was a way that we kind of used it to keep my, I don't know, desires at bay. Cause I'd be like, well, I have that my green light night coming up. So there'd be days that'd be like, my green light night would hit. I'd be like, I'm feeling so feminine. And I would just go like.
Karen (43:46.711)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (44:02.638)
all feminine and I would use, I went by the name Bree when I was doing that and I was, so I would like go back and forth, there are days and April would be like, how are you feeling today? I'm like very masculine and I'd like grow my, I had like facial hair sometimes and like, you know, and it was this very much pendulum because I'd seen what men represent as, I had seen what women represent as and so then it was almost like, I'm gonna stay over here, stay over here until the dam breaks and I'm gonna swing all the way over here and I've gotta let this feminine part out of me. But what's happened over time,
Karen (44:28.149)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (44:31.982)
is the more that I've got to just express myself is that the line is really blurred between what's masculine and what's feminine. And you start to see whenever, like right now I'm wearing, this is technically women's top and I'm wearing men's shorts and I have a little bit of makeup on, you know, and so you start to go like, wait a minute, well, I want to put on this nail polish but this is kind of a more masculine color. Is this masculine or feminine? And then you're just, I think I just started to realize like,
I'm, this is so subjective and I'm trying to put words to how I'm feeling and I realized that I was swinging a lot less the more comfortable I got and more comfortable I just got being myself. So I think what non -binary means to me is that I'm not trying to fit either of these boxes of feminine or masculine. I'm just trying to say, Beacher, what do you like? What do you want to wear? How do you want to present? And I'm not worrying about.
Karen (45:05.173)
Right.
Karen (45:13.173)
Right.
Karen (45:28.469)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (45:30.446)
that as much. So I guess in a way I would just say that I feel feminine and masculine inside, but by saying I'm non -binary is this commitment kind of to myself that I'm no longer going to try to fit these boxes that society has taught me that I have to fit one or the other. So a little bit of both. I don't know if that, if that...
And I'm hopeful, you mentioned like in the next generation, like there's gonna be things that the younger generation does and says. I mean, this is just me personally. I hope we get to the place where there's so many categories of people that eventually there are no categories and everyone can just be themselves. And we're not so worried about, well then who, what are you and what are you? And instead it's just, yeah, that's Beecher. Yeah, that's April. Yeah, that's Karen. You know, and that's, I would love to see that one day. It's interesting too, cause when Beecher had first come out,
especially with people older than us, when Beecher would be like, well, non -binary, initially they were like, well, how often do you feel feminine? They really wanted to know. Percentages. Right, percentage -wise, how often? And so it was weird because initially when Beecher would explain, I kind of just feel in between, some days I feel more masculine, which honestly, we were probably saying that too to ease the blow a little.
Karen (46:34.77)
Yeah. Right. yeah.
April and Beecher (46:50.862)
but they really clung to like, sometimes Beecher feels masculine. So in their mind, they're like, well, why can't you just be masculine around us? And so it was kind of like another way of being in the closet. Like they were, except like, that's cool for you to do that when you're not around me. And so it just kind of became this, and I think one reason too, cause we were talking about pronouns for a while and Beecher, I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, was like really,
Karen (47:01.81)
Right.
Karen (47:06.002)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (47:16.974)
All pronouns are fine, but if you gave people the room to use he, they would only use he. Like they would just completely ignore the other side of who they are. So I still think I'm probably there. I think if I could say I go by all pronouns and I got a pretty relatively even smattering of all of he, they, and she, I think I'd be totally happy with that. But yeah, as April said, I, whenever he, him pronouns are used for me,
Karen (47:25.234)
room.
April and Beecher (47:45.998)
I just feel, I don't feel seen is the best way to say it. And so... And obviously like some people don't, it's just, they're not saying he like with intention to harm. It's like a... And those people, it's interesting. So when I'm talking with somebody and they use they, them pronouns, and if anyone's listening that is wondering what's the point, what's valuable about pronouns is if I'm around somebody and they use they, them pronouns, I feel safe with them.
Karen (47:49.874)
Right.
Karen (47:58.896)
Derogatory, exactly, yeah.
April and Beecher (48:14.606)
And I go, okay, you're supporting me and I can be honest and real with you and like, we can develop a friendship. And if somebody comes in and uses he, him pronouns, I'm just in like, was that a mistake or are they not cool? I don't know. Let me like look at their Facebook, I guess, and see if they've posted anything about Toronto. You know, like, I don't like it's, it's, it's just, I'm, it's, I'm unsure. And so I have a, I have a friend that she's,
Karen (48:14.896)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (48:28.272)
Yeah.
Karen (48:33.008)
Right. Yeah.
April and Beecher (48:43.662)
older and really struggles with pronouns. And she was using he and pronouns a lot. And then one day she like bought me a mug that says they them on it and was like, I saw this and really just wanted to get it for you. And that was just a way that I was like, okay, even though you're missing the pronouns, like you're, you're trying and you are supportive and you are affirming and like, that's cool. But I think that's the kind of thing that for me to be real and honest with people, if they use they them, it's just easier. Cause I go, good.
Karen (48:59.376)
Right.
April and Beecher (49:10.798)
I'm seen and I'm understood. And if you're using him and you really are messing it up, then it's almost like, I'm going to need you to do something extra just to like show. Like, like if you're really just, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's, and they, of course people will come up and sometimes apologize. And then I'm like, cool. But then they want to maybe over apologize. And you know, it's just like, I don't, it's, it's a little, little awkward. It can get a little awkward. So if you do mess up a pronoun, what I would say is,
Karen (49:18.352)
Yeah. Need to buy me something? Another mug, a dress. Yeah, yeah. Get your goods.
do.
Karen (49:36.56)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (49:39.214)
mention it, say really sorry about that, the person's probably going to say no problem and then just move on. Right. You've told me in those instances, they've told me that they're affirming of me and that's all I need. Right. And we are not pronoun police. Like I there's those people exist and you know, people can do what they want with their own story. But like if I hear people use he, him for be true too. And I just make sure that the next sentence I'm like, yeah, they like, and it's like, it's a very subtle way. And
Karen (49:49.935)
Yeah.
Karen (50:04.143)
Ready.
April and Beecher (50:06.606)
Cause I'm not, I can't, I'm not going to force someone to use the right pronouns because people will just do what they want to do anyway. But.
Karen (50:14.095)
Yeah, but you had to change things too from husband to spouse. Is that what you use or?
April and Beecher (50:18.606)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I use spouse just cause it's a little less confusing, although like full disclosure, if I'm, if I've given her permission, just give me permission. If I have to get my car fixed or like I'm dealing with like a more masculine, whatever I always like, yeah. Well, my husband, like, I don't know. I just feel safer doing that. And they respect me more like, she's got a husband or husband knows, which I know, I think, well, yeah, it doesn't matter.
Karen (50:25.743)
Right.
Karen (50:34.575)
Right. Mm -hmm.
Use it. I know. Yeah. Well, it's your privilege.
That goes here too. So you're non -binary, like to dress in quote women's clothes sometimes. What is then are you, what's the difference between you and someone who does drag or is a drag queen, just had flaming grant on. What would be the difference?
April and Beecher (51:08.278)
Yeah, yeah, great question. So once again, I will just say this that I should have prefaced earlier. The way I kind of say it is when you talk to a trans person or non -binary person, everybody's story is different and they're going to have different things. But from my understanding of drag and drag culture is they're doing it for performance, where I am presenting just the way that I want to present and how I want to be perceived by the world. And I mean, for most of like, you know, my being a kid, they'd say, what?
what power would you want if you were a superhero? And I always picked invisibility because like I'm not doing this to like be seen necessarily. I don't want to stand out. I just want to be myself and nobody throw rocks at me. You know, like it's, it's so it's not a performance. It's, it's a, yeah, that's, that's kind of, kind of what I'd say. I just, I like to present how I like to present. And I've always been drawn to this. And this is when I look at myself in the mirror.
Karen (51:42.7)
Right.
Karen (51:51.723)
Yeah, yeah.
April and Beecher (52:05.486)
I feel really happy when I see myself looking more feminine. And I would say too, if I was on a, the way I also say it is, if I was on a deserted island and was just myself, I'd still be doing this. I'd still be putting on some makeup. I'd still be wearing women's clothes, even if it was no one else around for performance -wise. So yeah, that's what I kind of say.
Karen (52:26.443)
Yeah. And then between non -binary and trans.
April and Beecher (52:32.974)
So interestingly, I've heard, so there's kind of a discussion going on right now and I'm kind of like on the periphery of it. So from my understanding and the way I use the word trans is trans is an umbrella that underneath fits anyone who does not identify with the gender on their birth certificate. So, or like their original birth certificate. And so for me, my original birth certificate says male. So I identify as non -binary. So.
I use the word non -binary more because it's more specific, but I still see myself in the trans community under the trans umbrella. But the non -binary is kind of underneath. But I will say there are some people that are, you know, I've seen be like non -binary people aren't actually trans. And I'm just like, I don't know. Like I literally, I don't know. I just get over the exclusionary labels in any regard with anyone. I'm like,
Karen (53:05.003)
Mm -hmm. Okay.
April and Beecher (53:30.478)
I mean, I think I had a conversation, I want to say maybe with April the other day about like, if there was a cisgender man and he was cisgendered, but he liked wearing skirts, like would you be, I'm like, yeah, I hope you wear skirts. And I would welcome him to everything because he's breaking down the gender barriers and he doesn't have to be non -binary. He doesn't have to be a certain level of trans to be able to be honest with himself. And so I think I'm just very much for.
I just, I don't want to put up barriers and walls. If somebody wants to express themselves in a certain way, then I fully support it, especially if it's breaking down gender barriers. So yeah, so I would consider myself under the trans umbrella, but more specifically non -binary. And then under the trans umbrella, there's trans women, there's trans men, trans femme, transmasque, which means I'm not going to get into all of it, but there's different variations underneath, but I consider NB. That's another nickname for non -binary.
Karen (54:26.474)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (54:27.406)
I considered NBs underneath the trans umbrella.
Karen (54:30.538)
See, I wouldn't have, and that's just from my own not knowing. I would have thought, trans is actually when there's some kind of medical choice intervention or something. So.
April and Beecher (54:44.974)
I will say, interestingly too, I know a lot of non -binary people who are making medical choices to transition. And they're on hormones and they're considering surgeries, but they don't identify as a trans woman at all, just non -binary. So even that, even in that, and that too also gets really tricky if you put it in the realm of, well, if they're medically doing something, because a lot of states now are passing laws that make it very difficult to medically do something. So now you're putting barriers on.
Karen (54:51.114)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (54:59.69)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (55:12.366)
It's, it just, I feel like it's very similar to the, the bisexual discourse too. You know, where people say like, well, are you really queer if you, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of similar.
Karen (55:17.353)
Right, right. I'm getting to you, April. Exactly. Yeah, that's a big thing. When I did work with just everyone was gay and Greensboro, North Carolina, if you don't know, that is the San Francisco of the of the country. But.
you know, one a different lesbian friend there. No, no, sorry. She was bisexual. They were like, no, you're not because you've never been with a woman. And there was that whole thing. And so I'm going to come at April and be like, how do you know you're bisexual? April, you don't have to tell me any past things. But do you feel that how can you express bisexuality when you are married?
to someone. Well, okay, you go. I know, I'm like, wait, it worked out, yeah. No.
April and Beecher (56:12.654)
Right now it's complicated because Beacher is more feminine. So I'm like, does it count? And then talking about intimacy, once again, we're not going to go into details, but we've had experiences that nevermind. We're like, it's going to be an X rated podcast. So I don't know how to explain being bisexual, just like I don't know how to explain being straight. Like.
Karen (56:26.632)
Thank you. I have not.
Karen (56:41.096)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (56:41.166)
Or how to explain being attracted to men. Like I've just, I was always attracted to men and I've always been attracted to women also, but I just, I wasn't socially allowed to be attracted to women. I also like, I mean, I don't have to tell you past experience, but I did kiss my best friend in college. and repented for that. Obviously it was one of the, it was one of the first things I confessed to Beecher. Hey then, just kidding. That's what I probably said. Yeah. No, you, you.
Karen (57:00.936)
Such a cliche, April.
Karen (57:06.216)
Maybe she brought the demons into the relationship. Yep.
April and Beecher (57:10.862)
You were very taken aback. Yeah, maybe it was me. You leaked onto me. Yeah. I mean, like I think my bi awakening was probably watching Aladdin when Jasmine comes out in the red outfit. You know, like at the end when she's like Jafar's got it doesn't matter. Like in hindsight, I'm like, yeah, I was definitely attracted to this person and that person. And like, I was feeling things that were more than that. But at the time,
Karen (57:26.28)
Okay. Yeah.
Karen (57:31.656)
Now it.
April and Beecher (57:40.046)
you just write it off as, this is just normal. Everyone must feel these things. Yeah, and I would say like the few times in my life that I've had sex dreams, most of them have been with women, not with men, and they were hot. And it's funny before she went to therapy to kind of figure out her sexuality, I was like...
Karen (57:45.285)
Right. Yeah.
Karen (57:53.701)
Yeah.
Karen (57:58.757)
Right.
April and Beecher (58:06.349)
Well, April, I know you don't know if you can be attracted to me and femme, but like, you should see if you're bi because like that would make our lives a lot easier if you could find this attractive. And I have a hunch, like you told me about your dreams, you told me about that experience, but like, I really think you should kind of figure that out and explore that. And you were like, okay. And you get that. Yeah. And then it was just like, it seems so obvious now because my therapist was like, well, April, do you find women attractive? And I was like, yeah. She's like,
Karen (58:15.077)
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Karen (58:22.405)
Yes.
April and Beecher (58:35.214)
Okay, well, you're bi. I was like, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, once it clicked, it was like it clicked. And then I told my mom, it was like, just like casually over coffee. I didn't even, it wasn't like a, I didn't mean to come out. I was just like, yeah, I'm bisexual. And she was like, what? She had already known about Beacher, but it was just like a nonchalant, like non -issue for me. Once I realized it was like, yeah, this makes sense.
Karen (58:36.933)
I'll tell you what I am. Yeah.
Karen (58:54.469)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (59:01.902)
So I don't know really how to explain it. I will say I struggle though with like being a part of the queer community because I still, like I feel like my role is still more ally than like, cause I've never been discriminated against for being queer other than like my own like suppression that we all have from growing up in the church, but I was repressing other things as well. So yeah, that's kind of my.
Karen (59:10.149)
I getcha.
Brian.
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (59:31.022)
my take like, yes, I'm bi, which I guess makes me queer. I'm also married to a non -binary person, but I don't like, I have, I have pride, but I don't know. I still feel weird about, I don't, I don't want to like take space in a, in a place where I feel like other people are more deserving.
Karen (59:47.747)
It's interesting because you equate the LGBT community with suffering and or persecution. And if it does get to a place where none of that ever happens, does that mean that all the people cannot also identify with LGBT because they haven't been persecuted? What I'm saying April is go for it. If you feel comfortable like,
I do get it because especially being on TikTok, which I haven't been on for a while, there's such dividing lines about what you can be and what you can't be and what you can be accepted for. And I'm the same, I'm Hispanic and I'm like, but no, I don't look it and I grew up with white people so I can't belong, you know? And there's all that sort of feeling and I think sort of...
April and Beecher (01:00:37.838)
Yeah.
Karen (01:00:43.875)
not forcing ourselves into it, but that does bring society closer to not seeing labels as much if we do include ourselves. But I get that. You're not rainbow ready. That's what the issue is.
April and Beecher (01:00:53.614)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (01:01:01.198)
I can't. I mean, sure, I could be ready. Like, I'm not I'm not ashamed of being by by any means. I will tell people. But to me, it's like it's not the most interesting thing about me. I think you're the place where you tell it in like podcast form when you can explain it. You have context and give a story not in like 30 second tick tock form. Right. Well, and there's always like the police to like, you're bi. Who have you slept with? And it's like, I don't you know, it's you don't I don't it's kind of like.
Karen (01:01:08.483)
Exactly.
Karen (01:01:18.435)
Right, right.
Karen (01:01:27.875)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (01:01:30.702)
When I talk about Christianity, people are like, you're not a real Christian. How can you be a Christian? You were never a real Christian. And then you have to prove how Christian you were. Anytime you have to prove a piece of who you are, it's kind of dehumanizing in a weird way. Yeah, I mean, as you said, Karen, especially with LGBTQ, I just feel like I'm welcoming anyone that wants to join in this fold because it's going to make the most impact and the most difference. And...
Karen (01:01:36.579)
I like that.
Karen (01:01:40.577)
I know. Exactly.
Karen (01:01:55.264)
Mm -hmm.
April and Beecher (01:01:59.022)
it's going to once again make it less of a stigma. So I don't know, I'm all for April being open and honest, you know, open and being celebrated for that. But I also understand why she's making the decision to not post it. Like I get both.
Karen (01:02:14.912)
Exactly. And I think bisexuality has always been the shallow end of the pool. You know, that is especially zero entry pools. Very fancy. Like it seems like you're a beginner. You're a beginner LGBT person where you have, yeah, trans at the end and like there are most authorities, you know, and it's just funny how we keep seeing those sort of lines.
April and Beecher (01:02:31.022)
A baby queer.
Karen (01:02:44.032)
And we see it with faiths too, you know, you're Catholic, no, you're a Baptist. We see sort of how really committed you are to your LGBTness through that. And that makes no sense. But as humans, it's in our DNA to find patterns. That's how we survived. And that's what we keep doing. And it's good when people teach others sort of...
how they want to be talked to or how they want to be accepted even if you don't understand their labels. Because many times I do not. But it doesn't matter. But then your brain is like, but it does matter because I need to know where to place them and you know, but it doesn't matter. And it's just really something I appreciate with both of you explaining something that 10 years ago, none of us.
April and Beecher (01:03:22.99)
Yeah.
Karen (01:03:41.856)
would have understood, would have, you know, you could have been put in a mental hospital for some of this.
April and Beecher (01:03:48.654)
I know. Yeah. That was a fear. That was a very real fear of mine for a long time. I thought that's what would happen when I finally told somebody. So April, a month into dating, didn't send me off and that was very appreciative. I'm the hero in this story. For not sending me to it. I'm just kidding.
Karen (01:03:51.839)
Yeah.
Karen (01:03:59.807)
You did good. I can see. I can see. And the funny thing is when you were saying like you were looking for the man, you know, because you're just a help meat. That's all you are. I don't know what the meat part is. It's gross. But you're the help meat. But you also explain that Beecher did things to that I would think would be very head of the household, like telling you need to go to therapy, you know, and there was something else you said.
April and Beecher (01:04:10.478)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (01:04:28.799)
And I'm like, it's interesting because those sort of are those head of the household, but then you switch back and forth. And I guess it's going with that seesaw.
April and Beecher (01:04:39.886)
Well, Beacher had been telling me for years and I kept being like, screw you, no. And I'd been going to my own therapist for like eight, seven years by the time I told her, like, you really need to go see one to see. So that was, yeah, just some context. April told me I need to go to therapy a lot too. That's true. Well, and I, I always struggled with like submitting to Beacher. Like.
Karen (01:04:45.055)
Right.
Karen (01:04:49.759)
Yeah.
Karen (01:04:57.951)
Yeah. Yeah.
Karen (01:05:02.175)
That's me. That's me. I'm like, be the head of the household. Be a man. No, I will not do what you just said. Like, it makes no sense. That's me.
April and Beecher (01:05:07.95)
Exactly. Like I would literally, I would tell Beacher like you need to be the spiritual head and like lead this relationship. And then Beacher would try to like, well, we're going to do a worship night. We're going to pray together. And I'm like, screw that. I don't want, you don't need, who are you to lead me? Like you don't know my relationship with God. So I was, I was fighting with myself the whole time. It was wild.
Karen (01:05:15.903)
Yeah.
Karen (01:05:22.175)
Yeah, yeah, you're not doing it right.
Karen (01:05:29.117)
That's the whole thing and again our similarities and that's why I became a missionary because that was the highest a woman could do. I was not going to be, everyone else was like I'm called to be a pastor's wife. Now I think that's so ridiculous that you're called to be a wife of a pastor but like to me that wasn't enough you know for a woman and that was the only thing that I could really do independently.
April and Beecher (01:05:33.294)
Right.
April and Beecher (01:05:36.814)
wow.
April and Beecher (01:05:48.206)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (01:05:54.158)
Yeah.
It was a constant struggle because I was always a feminist. I wouldn't have said I was a feminist, but I was like, I can do anything a guy can do. Like I played sports all through college. I loved beating up boys on the court when I was a girl, not like a girl singular. But yeah. So it was, yeah, it was just this weird dichotomy. And even like my dad was a bit of a feminist too. And he had told me that women could preach. And so like,
Karen (01:06:01.788)
Exactly.
Karen (01:06:10.524)
Kissing girls, you did it all.
Karen (01:06:15.996)
What's her name?
April and Beecher (01:06:26.702)
It was just weird that I believed, I technically in my heart believed that women could do anything, but I wanted so badly to have that good Christian marriage and to do what I thought was good and right in God's eyes that I was trying to squeeze myself into a box that I was never meant to be in. And I'm definitely the cook in the relationship now. I cook 90, 95 % of the time or more, but early on April was trying to do that. She doesn't like cooking. And I'm not good at it.
Karen (01:06:35.356)
I know.
Karen (01:06:45.756)
Yeah.
Karen (01:06:55.644)
that April we're twins. We're virtually, my husband does all the cooking, laundry. I don't.
April and Beecher (01:06:56.622)
So literally, I do the dishes. I'm like, I know how to clean a dish that doesn't take brain power. That was the first gender role we kind of just gave up on about a probably a year in a relationship where eating chicken and chihuahua. I always did something so like I get anxiety when I'm cooking. I have to follow a recipe and I'm so anxious about it. Yeah.
Karen (01:07:16.732)
Me too. It's got to get ready at the same time and stay warm. No.
April and Beecher (01:07:22.958)
April cooked enchiladas early on in our marriage and she was so excited and I got home and she takes out of the oven and she'd put the the blue rubbery lid on it. The plastic lid on it. It melted. And so it just melted into the enchiladas but she's like I think we can still pick around it. So we literally like picked around it. I was like do you fix anything else? She's like no just chicken and cheese and flour tortillas. I'm like okay I like cookie you want me to cook? No no no no no this is what I'm supposed to do. No I am a wife damn it.
Karen (01:07:35.324)
How could you?
my God.
Karen (01:07:45.595)
My god.
This is what I'm right. I bought this apron. I mean, I did the same and I had the devotionals. I had the women's Bible that was pink and it had little write ups by like Ruth Graham and Amy Grant like you and Tony Erickson Tata, you know, all the the women. And like I would try to I would try to be pink. That's what I would think because everything for women at the Bible Arama store was pink.
April and Beecher (01:08:03.47)
Hmm.
Karen (01:08:20.09)
I'm like, let me try and be that. And it's funny how then you rationalize, because we did the same thing. Like, my husband's much better cook. It relaxes him. And my father, who's a very machismo Cuban man, still can't understand that. He's 93. He's not changing. We figured out. But I think.
April and Beecher (01:08:41.742)
Wow.
Yeah.
Karen (01:08:49.337)
It's interesting, we probably rationalize that as, well, if I cook, you have more time to read your Bible. Who knows what we said at first. But you really do try and figure all those weird things out. I don't want to hold up more of your time, but I do want to talk about your book, April.
April and Beecher (01:08:58.838)
know.
April and Beecher (01:09:09.966)
Yeah, I do have a book coming out. Woohoo! Yeah, so I wrote a book, it's called Star Spangled Jesus, Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding a True Faith is the subtitle. And so basically, I mean, a little bit of our journey is in there, but it's basically, I was raised very evangelical, conservative, Christian nationalist. We wouldn't have called ourselves Christian nationalist though at the time, which I think is a lot of what we see today still.
Karen (01:09:13.177)
Bye -bye.
Karen (01:09:27.641)
Okay, good.
Karen (01:09:35.897)
Right.
April and Beecher (01:09:39.246)
And so I wrote a book about Christian nationalism and it's kind of a humorous book. It's probably, I would imagine it's the only somewhat funny book on Christian nationalism out there because it's not typically a funny topic. But I tell the story of like when I sang an original song called America Say Jesus that I wrote on the Jim Baker show. So I tell it from this like humorous.
Karen (01:09:49.657)
Yeah.
Karen (01:09:57.529)
hahahaha
April and Beecher (01:10:04.558)
Perspective, personal stories that tie into modern day Christian nationalism and historic Christian nationalism and why it's a danger to both Christianity, if you actually care about Christianity, and the country.
Karen (01:10:14.873)
Right. Yeah. And when is it coming out?
April and Beecher (01:10:18.382)
October 1st, so it's on sale for pre -order now.
Karen (01:10:22.681)
Okay, so I'll put links under this on YouTube and our thing where they can just click for pre -order and we're doing the same, you know, Flammie Grant has something coming, talking to Jennifer Knapp, she has something out and I'll just make it easier for people to do a one little click. And Beacher, what do you have happening? Anything fun? Anything interesting?
April and Beecher (01:10:46.83)
So I'm working on a couple feature screenplays and I'm starting kind of early pre -production for a short film. So my creative space is filmmaking. So that's kind of the world that I'm in. I do have some movies that are out that I've made previously that people can watch. One of them is called The Good People of Orphan Ridge, which you can watch on Amazon Prime or Tubi. That's a feature film. And then all of my short films you can pretty much see on my website, Beacher .media. So, yeah.
Karen (01:11:15.769)
Okay, I'll put that too. And are you getting your trash picked up right now? Good. No, it's fine. Usually it's my dog, you know, that is in the back. But okay, we'll look for you guys there. See, that's what I do all the time. I say you guys. I was going to say that at the beginning that that is the go -to for Gen X.
April and Beecher (01:11:20.59)
Yeah, can you hear that? I didn't know if you could. Trash day. Happy trash day.
April and Beecher (01:11:34.542)
Mmm.
April and Beecher (01:11:38.286)
I know, honestly, I still say that one too. I'm trying not to. I try to say y 'all more, but you guys dies hard. You guys. That's tough.
Karen (01:11:42.841)
I do too. Yeah. And we would say it to a whole bunch of women, you know. We would just always say.
April and Beecher (01:11:50.638)
Right. Which I think, I don't think you guys is a big deal. There was a time that I was in a therapy session with like 11 other trans femme people and the person leading it was like, all right, you guys will be right back. And it was just like, that was, that was the only time it's ever been said. That was like, that was weird. I think if you're saying it to a group of like, if every, if it's a mixed gendered group, it doesn't feel problematic.
Karen (01:11:54.137)
I still don't like it.
Karen (01:12:01.785)
Mm -hmm.
Karen (01:12:12.377)
Yeah.
April and Beecher (01:12:15.854)
But I just, I just, just to get, I just say y 'all. I just embrace the whole Southern thing. I'm like, I'm like the downside of living in the South is that we live in the South. The positive is we can use y 'all and nobody bat an eye cause it's pretty much used all the time.
Karen (01:12:19.897)
I need to.
Karen (01:12:27.065)
True, true. I want to ask one last question because I have it here. Do you feel like your relationship is being watched? Now that you have come out in different ways, do you feel as when I came out as a non -believer that people are watching to see you fail, to see you for them to be validated that what you're doing is incorrect?
April and Beecher (01:12:57.966)
I think that way more with family that are still conservative. Like when we go to family events, we've literally talked about it too. And I think we've had family members that are encouraging us to, that are like cheering for us, be like, hey, just be really happy around these people. Or like, you know, show them that you're just normal. You know, like I think.
Karen (01:13:00.569)
Right. Right.
April and Beecher (01:13:19.918)
Like, and we've talked to - Show them that you're doing well because they have some doubts about your life choices, but we know you're happy. And I'm like, I am happy. But at this wedding, when you're talking to all these people, you need to like make sure you like show your happiness. And I'd be like, I know this is coming from a good place when you're saying this, but yeah, definitely. It definitely makes get togethers and family functions a little less exciting. Cause you're like, I got to put on a little bit of a show. We've talked about how like in the church, it would be like, we have to go into like -
Karen (01:13:30.641)
Yeah, yeah.
April and Beecher (01:13:46.478)
you know, a bar or a group of atheists and be a good witness and act really happy so that they want what they want the Jesus we have. And now it kind of, it kind of still feels like that when we go around our Christian family, just be like, look, we can be a witness for the queer community. It really does. It's not hard to turn that back on. We were trained.
Karen (01:13:50.777)
that. Right.
Karen (01:13:58.489)
Yeah.
Karen (01:14:02.233)
Yeah.
Karen (01:14:06.457)
I know, I know. And I mean, I feel that everywhere, you know, that people are watching. And when you have a couple who's sort of being watched for something in different circles or whatever, it's interesting because it's sort of, it doesn't limit it, but you all will go through marriage things that have nothing to do or everything to do with different...
April and Beecher (01:14:30.99)
Right.
Karen (01:14:33.305)
identities and expressions, but people will use that as, you know, look, and I know that they definitely do that. If I'm having a bad day, you know, people will just be like, well, because you don't have the joy of the Lord. You're like, well.
April and Beecher (01:14:49.646)
Right. And if a Christian, like a strong conservative Christian has a bad day, it's because they're doing such good work that Satan is attacking them.
Karen (01:14:56.345)
That's right. That's right. Absolutely. That's why Will Smith hit. I still that goes in my mind because Will Smith was being attacked by the devil when he hit Chris Rock. Yeah. Yeah. So I just always think of those and go how I just want to shake people, but I won't. I won't. I'm against violence. Thank you guys for coming again and I really appreciate it.
April and Beecher (01:15:04.558)
Mmm.
April and Beecher (01:15:09.422)
Chris Rock, my gosh.
April and Beecher (01:15:18.318)
Mm.
Karen (01:15:25.561)
You're welcome back anytime.
April and Beecher (01:15:27.79)
Yeah, thanks for having us. We'll have to hang out in person again sometime.
Karen (01:15:31.001)
Yeah, come on down, because my daughter is home and she babysits. Yeah, she loves it. Something wrong with her. Good, good. Happy Pride! See ya. Thank you guys. Now I'm gonna...
April and Beecher (01:15:35.566)
Ooh, that'd be fun. Thank you so much for having us. This was great and happy Pride Month to everyone.