Pardon greetings everyone. Today I am happy to say that we have Elizabeth Williamson with us, and Elizabeth started principle based Partner Yoga. And the way I think of it, or I understand it is that you know Yoga is not just for our physical, although it is great right for balance and strength. But really, Yoga, for our whole being, and Elizabeth is really helping us with our whole being. I think being is such an important word here.
and she's recently led a talk called Exploring the Great Mystery and befriending Death. So you see why she's such a great person to have us on. Have with us on the death Dharma podcast and you know she likes to speak about the transformative power of contemplating death and reclaiming the sacred nature
of death and the time of transition right? Because it is a transition that we go through, and you may find her at elizabethwilliamson.com. But what I want you to know is that her name is ELYS. A, BETH. And then Williamson, WILL. IAMS. ON. So, Elizabeth, thank you for patiently waiting while I said all that, and welcome. And would you like to add to any of that? Please do.
Thank you very much for that, Margaret, and thank you for spelling my name correctly. Yeah, I think that partner, Yoga, is something that is quite different from more traditional practice, and something that I was just really inspired to develop. Because I think relationships are the where we received the most joy and fulfillment, and also the greatest heartbreak and challenge.
I agree. Oh, my gosh! And then within that you've become inspired to also handle the topic of death. So what brought you that.
Well, it was interesting when I wrote my book almost 20 years ago. Now I just developed this practice as something we could do together as a form of partner, Yoga, where one person would sit as the guardian and the other person would lay in Shavasana, and through some guided relaxation techniques. They would explore what it would feel like when that moment came and added some questions around it. And this practice has. I've I've integrated in into my partner, yoga work, but it's really
it's come alive in these recent years, and I think it's just very relevant to the times. And I think the other reason why I'm more inspired to work with it is when people hear the word, partner. Yoga. True. a lot of resistance and thoughts like, oh, well, I don't have a partner, and that's not the way I teach it, you know, significantly.
Oh, okay.
Or they say, I don't do, yoga, but with death we all die, and we all lose our loved ones. So it's a much more universal application that people can feel.
That makes sense. Eventually, we're all gonna be in Shavasana.
Yes, exactly.
We're all going to be in the corpse pose. Now, would you please remind me your book? Is it still available.
Yes, it is.
That's what it is called. Would you remind me of the title.
The pleasures and principles of partner. Yoga people can order the hard copy and a Pdf. Version both through my site.
Great, great. I appreciate that now. There's so many paths you can take, you know, in exploring this topic of death, and so maybe tell us even more about like your focus.
Yeah, I think my focus has always been on both relationship and embodiment. You know not about transcendence, but really illuminating the body, bringing it fully in.
and even in the practice of Shavasana I was always kind of struck by it was never mentioned that this practice really is a practice of the ultimate letting go. And so we we get to feel in our body, imagining and feeling directly what it might feel like to let go of these layers of holding and identification that I am this body that's always changing.
I get that and I. And as you're speaking, I'm kind of thinking back to you know my own Yoga practice. And when I do with a group at the end. So often we do end with Shavasana. But there isn't a lot of emphasis given to what is that really might be. The reference of this is corpse pose, but it's almost more like
relaxation at the end of the Yoga session, and not really going into the depth that, you know, you're explaining to us. So that's definitely, you know. Interesting. Now, when you're working with groups. Oh, go ahead.
I would just like to say one more point there with the relaxation. I mean, that's really what we're doing when we're exploring death. We're just unwinding. And we're actually naming what we're unwinding, not just any physical holding, but our thoughts and our emotions. And then we can go even deeper into this is who I am, and for me the greatest gift of that unwinding is the possibility of glimpsing that we are more than this life and this body.
and that's what happens. And we can talk about that forever. But to have a direct, embodied experience can really change someone's life.
Okay, okay? And I would imagine that's why you really do this emphasis of having people sit with a partner while a partner is in corpse pose to kind of help. Get us to that.
It helps with the safety. But even that role. That's a very important role, too, because that could support us at some point in life, to actually do the real thing with one with an aging parent, with a friend, to be able to sit with as much clear mind, open heart as we can from holding the practice of being a guardian.
And so while you've been doing this, and you're facilitating groups and people. What do you observe? And are there any commonalities.
Oh, yes, it's it's so. It it makes me laugh at sometimes, but other times I'm saddened by the reality that people have a lot of resistance to this kind of exploration. But the thing that I observe more more than anything, is just how quickly people go from a lot of fear, a lot of tightness to this feeling of
bliss and joy, just by being willing to to talk in a safe circle, and just the the intensity of the resistance to the topic just softens so quickly. And we just you know, there's a joy, and there's a levity that happens.
Now, what is it you think that helps somebody come from that place of resistance to that place of bliss?
I think it's the safety. And I also think, being in a space where we see how we all are the same. You know we all have these feelings, and when we're afraid, our egoic, separate self aspect thinks no one suffers like we do.
And we're so darn good at it.
Yes, and you know we hold that very precious and close. And so then, when we sit in a circle and there's that's 1 of the things I believe happens that we see. Oh, everyone feels this way, and just knowing that universality as a very profound release.
Oh, okay, that understanding. Oh, you're afraid of death, too. Yeah. Okay.
You have this particular fear, and you know I mean it is said to be the deepest fear.
Right right other than although it depends now. So sometimes in in, when I do some speaking in another world, which is a a little more. You know, business focus. And I have people do presentations. I do notice that public speaking. Sometimes some people are more afraid of public speaking than death, but we are all still afraid of death. So there is that.
What's interesting is, I would say that that's true even for myself. Love teaching. I love having conversations like the one we're having. Just get up and speak where I feel separate is very, is very scary.
It is true, cause you feel a little isolated, you're like. and the front of the pack by yourself. One of my students said it so eloquently. What did she say? She said, Margaret, don't you understand that I'd rather be in the box than giving the eulogy.
That's that's why.
I was like, Wow, yeah, that was a long time ago, but you see, it stuck with me, and that wasn't even we weren't even talking about death. It was like, I said it was a business class, but we were talking about project presentations. But still that was her comment. And so it's interesting that she, you know, combined great fear is our fear of judgment, 1st of all and our sense of being separate
We're not separate. And when we hold circles, that's 1 of the things that we see that we're in this together. I think that's part of the release of our fear of death. We know that we're all going through this together.
And is there more to this root? Fear of death? What do you think? Is there more.
I definitely think so. I think that you know, this really gets into a way deeper conversation. But for myself, I think what I've come to is it's a fear of total annihilation, of no longer existing, because, you know, my personal feeling is that consciousness.
as we know, energy cannot be created or destroyed. So my personal belief is that wherever we go, including into death, there we are, and but I think an even deeper fear is that that we we won't exist that will be completely annihilated, and there's no self at all.
That's that we don't. So do you think it's that we, as humans, don't want to think that this is it? We're here. We're gone, and then there's nothing. So it's like we were never here.
Well, I wouldn't explain it like that. Exactly. Think that that what you just said has value like one of the very 1st questions that I will ask us to contemplate is who believes that this is it that that end of story we die end of story. And I think there's a lot of people that do feel that. When I asked the next question, which is, and how does that make you feel to believe that this is it? And you know oftentimes the answer to that question is, it makes them want to
live their lives fully and with meaning. And to me. That's the bottom line. Whatever your thought feeling story about what happens when you die, just the contemplation of death brings meaning and aliveness to our.
Life. Okay.
For myself. Personally, I have realized that I'm much more afraid of being fully alive than of dying. And yeah, and that's true for a lot of people once they start the exploration.
So it's not death we're afraid of, but it's still living on the way out.
Yeah, it's it's the just really being willing to fully be fully alive, feel all our feelings, express ourselves, be who we really are.
And I know that you you believe that. And as do I, that exploring death can help us be more fully alive, and maybe you can add a little bit more to that. So like this practice of being aware of death helping us being fully alive. What what does that really mean to us?
Well. one of the things that I believe to be true is that in order to explore these deep realms, we need to feel safe.
Okay.
And I think that that sense of safety arises when there's some ground of self love and self, honor and self tenderness and compassion. These qualities, and when we can cultivate them. Or, again, just simply ask the question, what is self-love. you know? And once we get some sense of how we honor ourselves and and care for ourselves. Then we can go into the deeper dive.
Okay.
And and once we go into that deeper dive we start to get clearer about what it is we value.
So when you say that what is self-love? What are some answers that you would think you would hear, or what are some answers that resonate for you that question, what is self-love?
Yeah, that's a good. That's thank you for asking that, because it's a it's a challenging question. And I'd love to hear your response to it, too. I think that it's the. It's the connection and the devotion to this part of myself that's I could use the word divine or sacred something that I know is larger than the human me that can feel scared and vulnerable, and that part of me can hold the the very young, tender human part.
Yeah, yeah, all right. So you did say, you want to hear me. So I think that that's fair, I think for me, especially one of the things I've really been working on this past year in my life with self-love has to do with balance and also working towards equanimity, towards myself and towards others in the world around us. And so when I kind of put that all together in self love, it means to forgive who I've been in the past on, and each day try to be the person you know that I want to be.
and you know at the end of that day to move forward, because on that day I may like today I may not get to the end of the day and go like, Wow, you did an amazing job. And to with balance provide what I think is needed in my life to help me move forward on my spiritual path as a layperson right? A person in the world living the Layperson life. And what is it I can do to help
myself towards release from suffering while still helping others around me, and that ties back to some of the balance and equanimity, because I do find that sometimes maybe some of the people who reach out towards me. I do want to help. but I have to be careful of the kind of help I give, so that it doesn't take me to a difficult place in my spiritual life. That was a lot. But so thank you for listening to that. Obviously I was thinking that through. Yes, thank you.
Yeah, I I understand. And but again, you were thinking it through, because it's an important question, right? It's a it's a deep question. And and others listening to this conversation, may be able to ask themselves that question. So that's a lot of what we do in the workshops. Just really ask these very relevant questions where we get to, you know. contemplate and inquire deeply, and and build this sense of self-love and and relationship with ourselves.
So that we can live our lives with greater depth and heart, and meaning and compassion for others.
Well, this is probably a good place to learn more about some of the practices you use in your retreats, and then also, I know you have a retreat coming up next month. So everyone, when you're listening to this, this is April 2025, and Elizabeth has a retreat in May of 2025, just to put a timestamp on that, but perhaps share with us some of about that retreat, but also some of the practices, if you would.
So I've in the recent retreats. I've had a dear friend of mine who's been a midwife for 40 years, and she brings sound healing or healing sound. However, we want to say that she has a plethora of instruments and that just really brings. I've noticed the unifying effect of sound. So we so on the beginning night, we'll use that sound healing to do a group
deep relaxation, a form of Yoga Nidra for those that are familiar with that, and we just everybody's gone through whatever they had to go through to get to the retreat itself. So I like to begin just with a little introduction, a little conversation on what's alive on the topic of death for them. and that can range, you know, from a very you know I have young people come afraid of death, and then I have
elders and everything in between. So we just start slowly under, you know, building that sense of connection in the circle, and knowing that this is not going to hurt, we're here to relax and release and inquire, and then, you know, we'll do forgiveness practices, and that can be a whole. a whole depth of self. Seeing you know, seeing that ultimately a lot of forgiveness is for towards ourself.
We do again. The self-love practices not not so much practices, but really what is self-love, and I believe we're all conditioned to care out here for everyone else, which and then, you know, caring for ourself up until recently, was considered selfish or self indulgent, or or whatever. And and now we know that if we are not caring for ourselves, then we are really of no use, and our relationships are just one of codependence. I'm doing this for you, and I expect you're going to do it for me.
Yes, that was a lesson I really had to learn off and on throughout the years of don't give with the expectation of something in return, and if you can't, then just don't, don't give until you're ready to give like don't give with strings attached right? And the other part is, I still need this reminder frequently from one or 2 of my teachers, which is, you know, you can't give what you don't have, which goes back to the you know, keeping your well replenished. Yeah.
So we get to explore those questions. And you know, when when the moment comes, and you know, by the time the actual peak practice in the retreat is this, sitting as guardian and practicing your own death? Often by the time we get to that practice it, the the joy and the release that is felt in the space. It's you know, it can often be a little challenging to go. Okay, we're gonna go in and deep now, because there's already been such a feeling of relief.
We'll we'll do some journaling. What's your myth on death? You know, if you had to say it right now, what do you believe happens when we die? So it's it's just. It's very rich self. That, I think, is a is a precious opportunity.
That's great. Now. Why, why is it important for us to have a myth around death?
Well, that's 1 of the things that I learned from Carl Young's work.
Okay.
And the individuation of the self which my understanding of that his, his. and his way of expressing the self is the deep center of our being. and he just felt like that was the most important thing that we can do in terms of having a deep relationship with our own being, and that that, like our relationship with God or the Buddha. whatever nature, whatever form of higher intelligence we happen to be drawn to, that, that this really will cultivate, that this.
They help us give depth and meaning to our lives.
Okay, okay. So the the myth helps us with how we live our lives and what we think is going to happen at the end is also informing the choices we make during. And do you encounter sometimes people who don't have a myth or haven't really thought about it.
Yeah, I think that most people.
Okay, okay. I wasn't sure. I will say once I have a friend, and he was very close to his grandmother. and when she died. This was like his first, st I'll say big death in his life. and one of the things that troubled him was that he said, I don't know what I believe about what happens to her next or where she is, and that did turn out to be something very troubling for him, he said. You know. I don't believe I was ever taught
anything about what happens when we die. And he was at a loss. He was at a loss.
Yeah. So one of the things that I believe is that the dying process help. It happens elementally. So I'm I have a companion. I have a woman in my life that is 93, and I'm I'm a companion to her, and.
You know.
We are talking about this elemental dissolution, which starts with the earth element. The densest element goes into the water, and then the fire, and then the air, and then we become one with the space and the. And I think that that just even contemplating something like that, the dissolution of the body elementally, and our being, I should say more. Our being.
Okay.
That can be helpful. And then, after you know, after death, as we both, you're probably aware of, the Tibetans have quite have developed a quite a elaborate understanding of the different realms, the for people that are interested to explore that. But even having something simple some simple belief, it doesn't even, you know. Of course, death is the great mystery, right? No. And no spiritual teacher has ever said, this is what happens.
Right. This is how it is, because nobody can tell us that.
Yes, and and I think on that note. One of the things I've been considering lately is that there's like a wildness to that. and just like we need the wildness of nature and wild animals. It just opens us and we get to see. Ultimately we have no control. And there's a freedom in that. Is, and I think that that's where the bliss and joy come from. We get to relax into that. Oh, I really have no control, and I can resist that knowing or relax into it.
That not having to know something, was early on one of the points of the biggest relief to me. I'm like, Oh, good! This is. This is a realm where I don't have to know everything, you know, I guess, especially having worked in the corporate world where you know you're expected to have answers all the time. And so it was so nice to just be like.
I cannot know. It's okay. It's okay to not know something. It was. It's lovely. I still love it, you know this takes courage, though right. Is it fair to say this takes courage.
Absolutely.
So how do we? How do you help people find the courage? Because you know the people who are coming to you? They're working with you. I think they're coming with some willingness. but there might be something you do ahead of time to help them find the courage.
Well, I'm doing this right here and right now.
True, right.
We're.
Having the discussion.
I love talking about the topic I truly do, and even though it does take courage it takes. you know it's just that 1st step to be willing to show up with our fear, with our unknowing, with our anxiety like this last retreat that I did. There was a woman, Phd. Scientist. She was very, you know, very inner left brain, which we're all conditioned to be very intelligent, very sensitive, and she came in just kind of like a you know, a ball.
Aw.
Fear and terror and And you know she, out of anyone in the group, I believe, had the greatest breakthrough.
Okay.
You know, at the end of class I or I think it was the last day I invite everybody to to just write a little poem, and it pours out, and but.
Okay.
Particular woman, the the poetry that poured out of her, and the joy. So it's almost like that polarity right willing to show up with however much fear or resistance or denial, that the potential for for joy and bliss and ecstasy is also is great, and I know that personally from you know my own experience.
Now I'm picturing as you're describing her. I'm picturing almost like a flower unfurling, or somebody coming in like in the fetal position. And then, just like releasing. Now she had so much, you know, fear and trepidation when she came to you. Do you know what got her to come to you?
She'd she realized how much fear she had on that topic.
Andrew.
And you know again, on this recent retreat I had 2 people cancel the day of. So they had registered, paid everything but the day of, instead of taking that step with their fear. they said no.
Okay, okay, I get that. They probably were up all night, and you know it. It. I guess it wasn't their time. But then it made space for someone else whose time it was. And so, you know, there's somebody who used to say to me, the right people show up and.
I mean, it's just. It's a self seeing. And I think you know one of the things I I've thought about in my own experience, I think, because of my early childhood conditioning, and that I didn't have a lot of support or
you know, just there wasn't a whole lot of attachment that I had. I kind of came in knowing I was totally on my own. You know I had a mentally ill mother, and no father and And so I think that because of that, I have had through my life a lot more willingness to explore these deeper questions, where I think sometimes people that have a lot that it feels like they have a lot to lose. Attachment and fear can be even greater.
Whereas, because of the challenges of your childhood, you were pushed to toward the deeper questions like, why, why is it like this? Why is this happening.
Yes.
Right.
That was also what even I mean. My mother was pretty suicidal, her whole.
Hello!
My brother committed suicide. And so death, and not the sacredness of death, was always in kind of the air, and I had my own relationship with well, that's always an option and but I think in my case I was also gifted with this clarity relationship to Yoga relationship to spiritual understanding that I kind of knew, even as a child, that that was not going to be the end of story.
Okay? And because you have these gifts, I think that you probably have some really good ideas about you know how we can best support ourselves when we deal with the loss of a loved one.
Yes, yes, I think you know, one of the the things that I think is simple but very powerful is to remind ourselves that we grieve because we love. and just knowing that we have a choice, do we focus on the grief and the sadness and the loss? Or do we focus on the depth of love and the connection we feel to that person, whether they're in their body or not. So yeah, I mean, grief is a whole other realm, and it comes in waves. I know that personally, from the my brother's death.
But and I think there's a lot of support out there for working with grief. But there is not for exploring death. You know there's a whole movement with death, Doulas and.
Hmm.
One of my Closest friends through the years, wrote a beautiful poem that I put in my book about death, and and she created a whole school around training people to help others consciously die. So that's and something else that. More popular. But to really hold death, like the native American, have through this practice of today, is a good day to die, and just asking ourselves, is it? And sometimes I have felt yes, I feel I feel fulfilled. But most times it's like, No, I am not ready to go.
and so that in itself can be a simple practice that people might be able to leave this conversation with just asking themselves, is today a good day to die, and if not, why.
Right. What do I need to do to make it true that it's a good day to die.
Or what feels undone.
Right? Yeah, and and what is left.
And the times when I have felt like I could answer that question. It's either when I have been deeply connected to a group of people, either with Partner Yoga or the Exploring Death Retreats, or times that I've felt so profoundly connected to nature. And those are times when I'm just full. And yeah, I can answer yes to that question.
Oh, that's great. And this has been a really nice full discussion, and I'm appreciative, and I know everyone else will be, too. And as we begin to end our discussion. I just wanna see, is there anything you would like to add anything you'd like to say? Or you know that I something I didn't ask that you wished I had. This would be a great time to to get that in there.
Thank you, Margaret. I thought I you know, looking through some notes from my last retreat. You know, in, I said. You know at 1 point I'll ask people to to write a poem which often that can be kind of a big ask for a lot of people. So I'll offer the suggestion of writing with their non-dominant hand, which I've had fun with over the years, and I'll read the poem that came through me on the last retreat. It's very brief.
That sounds perfect.
Die to what you are not. Rejoice in being what you are. Love is everlasting. The fountain of flow from within.
Oh, that is perfect! What a lovely cap to everything we've discussed! Thank you so much. Thank you.
Thank you. I love the topic, and it inspires me, and thank you for all the work that you do on bringing this topic forward.
Well, I it's joyful because I get to speak with people like you.
Hmm.