[rob]: Welcome to dear watchers, a comic book omnivers podcast where we do a deep dive into [rob]: the multiverse [guido]: Traveling through the storylines before and after that, inspired or took inspiration [guido]: from this week's alternate universe [guido]: and your watchers on this, our thirty ninth journey through the omniverse of comic [guido]: books are me, Guido. [rob]: and me, Rob of the opera.
[guido]: That was a little bit of a a more straightforward one. I [guido]: have to say, not much creativity there, but [rob]: Yes, that's true. [rob]: I could be. I guess the Phantom of the comic bookstore. [rob]: So what is new this week? Geto? [guido]: well, we're back in an else worldorls, which will [rob]: Yes, [guido]: introduce in just a moment, and last week our else world's visit was quite fun and
[guido]: hopefully people enjoyed it. We saw lots of comments about Daylay created equal. We [guido]: also have posted. as we mentioned last week, we are commissioning artists that we [guido]: love to do art from our conversations and the weird worlds we imagine. In our [guido]: conversations. We posted our first amalgamm art last week, and it was [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: horror based for those horror fans. And then we actually got some stickers.
[rob]: Yes, and more ha, and more horror today too that. [guido]: Lots of horror. You're really influencing [rob]: Yes, [guido]: our our line up here, But we got all of our art that we've commissioned so far on to [guido]: some really nice stickers that we are getting ready to mail to a few friends of the
[guido]: show. So, if you want to get a sticker, post a review of our podcasts wherever you [guido]: listen, send us a screen shot and we're happy to mail you a sticker that you can put [guido]: wherever [rob]: yes, and more stickers to come, as you [rob]: saidly, But if you are joining us for the first time after a quick summary of our [guido]: more art to come.
[rob]: alternate earth, we have origins of the story. Discovering what may have inspired this [rob]: other reality, exploring multiversity, diving deeper into the alternate universe and [rob]: pondering possibilities, examining the impact of this visit to the Multiverse and [rob]: what's followed or our hopes for the future, And with that dear watchers, welcome to
[rob]: Episode thirty nine. Let's check out what's happening in the Multiverse with today's [rob]: alternate universe [rob]: and today we are posing the question, What if to face Harvey Dent was the Phantom of [rob]: the Opera, [guido]: No, There's a better way to say that I [rob]: That's got a little Peter Loury, Brs, Carlov, voice, I did there somewhere. [guido]: to put like a voice modulator on there. Yeah, well, so this alternate universe is one
[guido]: of the unknown Earths. It has not been assigned a number, Certainly, not officially, [guido]: and not even in a fan right up that I could find. So we' visiting an unknown earth [guido]: here and on this unknown earth, which takes place in probably the eighteen [rob]: It's a little hard to say, but yes,
[guido]: seventies. It's hard to say, but the eighteen seventies ish. We have recluse Bruce [guido]: Wayne, who goes out as vigilante Batman in this Victorian era and starts to fall in [guido]: love with the understud of a ballet opera [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: Mask of the Red Death performance. In that performance, Harvey Dent is the star lead [guido]: actor and he gets burned. half [rob]: Ballina, really. [guido]: of his face gets guarred. Yeah, I guess the [guido]: Ba ballri, now, I'm not sure,
[guido]: and the rest of the story proceeds as the blot of Phantom the Opera. Basically Harvey [guido]: is jealous. I guess of Bruce will talk about all these questions in love with this [guido]: understud who now becomes the star because the other star had both of her legs broken
[guido]: by Phantom Harvey. And then we have lots of conversations between this star and Bruce [guido]: about what darkness means and what it means to be the Batman and ▁ultimately, the Two [guido]: Face Phantom of the Opera in a battle with Batman, tries to kill the ballerina fails. [guido]: and then the love of his life goes off to Paris. Bruce's life goes off to Paris, So [rob]: Mhm, Mhm, Yes, it's interestingcause. We, we called it. What if Two Face was the fant
[rob]: of the opera? It's kind of. what if Two Face and Bat Bad were both the phthom of the [rob]: opera in different ways? Yes, [guido]: well, we'll get all into what that could mean [rob]: soo what you know, this is. of course Batman, one of the most famous comical characters [rob]: all time, But we have not covered that man on this [guido]: we haven't. [rob]: podcast. We didj, but he wasn't really in those. So what is your background with that [rob]: man and also with Harvey to face?
[guido]: So [guido]: I think you know the baseline for Batman. This is. It was interesting and we will get [guido]: into this when we get to like why we picked the comics we did. But that man, [guido]: I think it's probably [guido]: confirmed and clear has the most number [rob]: Y. [guido]: of stories written about him in comic books of any one, [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: and he, so I always knew him a lot, and I read him on and off. as we've talked a lot
[guido]: of the show about. I read in every title I could get my hands on in the nineties, so [guido]: I read Nightfall like most people did, and I kept reading some of his titles. I would [guido]: read Catwomman every now and again. I would read Robin every now and again and then [guido]: I've gone in and out of D. C. And I love things like Infinite Crisis, and so I would [guido]: read a lot of the Batman titles, then Final Crisis, which he's involved in, and then
[guido]: up through the recent years, I have never read Batman on a monthly basis. Actually, [guido]: until the last few years with James Tnyan and Marriko Tamaaki re writing, And I love [rob]: and for me too, I think we've talked about this, but when you go for me, not being as [guido]: it.
[rob]: avid as a comer you are. It looks very intimidating when you go to the comic bookstore, [rob]: and basically an entire section of new books is just dedicated to Batma, [guido]: Yes, and Dy's notorious for for publishing licensing, producing more Batman than [guido]: anything else. Uh, all everything else probably put together honestly in their line. [guido]: So and then, of course, I've seen every movie. I've seen every episode of the
[guido]: animated series. I've seen every episode of the sixty six series. So I, I like [guido]: Batman, I consume Batman. I am not a Batman expert at all. Two face, then even less [guido]: so right, So I know, of course the two Face from the animated series, which is really [guido]: my two face. [rob]: Richard, Richard, Mall Bull from Nightc is to face. [guido]: Yes, and and I of course know the the movie versions, And then I've read him in books
[guido]: like Hush, which I've read. I've read a lot of the major Batman events, but having [guido]: not read Batman Monthly, or not gone back and revisited a lot of the Golden Age [guido]: Silver Age, even Bronze Age Batman, I've not read a lot of Two Face, other than any
[guido]: modern major stuff that he shows up in, which is actually not that much. How about [guido]: you [rob]: So Baman, I really came to him originally from the Sixty six series, which obviously [rob]: was not watching Nineteen Sixty Six, but I remember sitting on my grandpent parents' [rob]: couch in Wehawk in New Jersey, watching the two episodes back to back constantly. I [rob]: don't know what channel was on, but that was really my introduction to Batman for a
[rob]: long time. Myarli in movies in movie theater experiences I can remember is Batman [rob]: Returns, which I must have seen at way too young for a movie where there's Michelle [rob]: Fiifer in Carb Cat Woman, Sue, and Penguin biting someone's nose off. But I saw that
[rob]: and then Really Batman Forever was the first one of the first movies I can remember. I [rob]: bought everything connected to it, the video game Tians, the book Tiyans, and then from [rob]: there, I, only after all of that did I really get into Batman in the comics, And you [rob]: mentioned it, but Nightfall was really the main thing I read. I've read that over and [rob]: over again. There's still many big Batman' stories though that I have not read like the
[rob]: Long Halloween. Though I did watch the animated film, I have not watched the killing [rob]: read The Killing Joke, so there's big gaps in Batman, but really, I think once I read [rob]: the what? once I watched the animated series. that made me buy a lot more comics. And I [rob]: really, I bought it if there was a cool villain on the cover, especially someone like [rob]: the Ventroliquistan Scar Face or Misterr. ▁zaz, those really kind of psychotic
[rob]: villains. Those were the ones I really gravitated towards and bought, and then, of [rob]: course, subsequently watched all the Nolan movies and all those things for Two face. I [rob]: didn't. He was never my favorite villain Because he is not on the sixty six series. He [rob]: is one of the only major villains not really represented there. but really I got to [rob]: know him through. Timelyly. Jones is completely wacko performance in That man forever,
[rob]: and then, of course the animated series. He was never my favorite villain, I think, in [rob]: part because he wasn't on the sixty six series. So I wasn't introduced, introduced to [rob]: him early on, but also, and which I'm sure we' go to talk a lot about today because he [rob]: is constantly like Mister Freeris, depicted as one of those more sympathetic villains, [rob]: and I like the really cookooky crazy villains.
[guido]: Ga? though what we found today I'd say he is not very sympathetic, so [rob]: That's true. Yes, I think much more than Mister Freeriies or Cat Woman. I, I would [rob]: imagine he's much more in the truly villainist mode for a lot of that, including in
[rob]: Batman forever. Really, he has very few redeeming qualities. You never really see. The [rob]: Harvey didn't come out there, [rob]: but let us go into our origin stories and we're going to start actually with a movie [rob]: today, so I'm very excited to explore this week's origins of the story, [rob]: and first up, we are going to break convention a little bit here and actually start.
[guido]: we've done it once before. I can't. I know that I've written a movie in our show [guido]: notes, but I can't remember what it was. [rob]: Yes, No, I can't remember either already an episode thirty nine, and we don't remember
[rob]: our Fas episodes only thirty time. But yeah, so we're going to start with the nineteen [rob]: twenty Five film version starring La, Shanny Senior of the Phantom of the Opera, That [rob]: came out as I said in September, nineteen twenty five, [guido]: It's directed by Rupert Julian, based on the novel by Gaston Loro, which was only [guido]: from fifteen years earlier. We were both surprised to learn. and it's of course a
[guido]: universal movie. Perhaps the proto universal horror movie [rob]: Yes, [guido]: That is in their collection. It's a silent film, And so watching it for this, I think [guido]: was the first time I sat down and watched it. I. There's a lot of images that are [guido]: very familiar to me, and [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: maybe I've seen it without my full attention being paid to it. But this was the first [guido]: time I watched it. Now Earlier this year we watched the musical Because I had never
[guido]: seen the musical. I don't like that, and we're going to talk a lot. I think about the [guido]: two, but this movie I really enjoyed watching this morning, and you, I assume had [guido]: seen this movie prior to today. [rob]: Yes, I had this movie on V H. S. and watched it. I remember you could buy it with music [rob]: or not music. And I remember, as a little kid I thought well, a silent movie that can't
[rob]: be music. So I bought it without music, which is pretty deadly to sit through [rob]: seventy eight minutes of just complete silence. It really was supposed to be made with
[rob]: music, but yes, I watch this. I was, you know, obsessed with Lan Chaney as a kid with [rob]: all the Universal horror movies, which, as you said, this is really the prototype for [rob]: the you know, ▁ote unote first one with Drace Thirty One, and in general, I was really [rob]: obsessed with the Phantom of the Opera story as a whole, mostly because of the Android [rob]: Webb musical.
[guido]: Yeah, see, and I think because I don't like that. I mean, I even said you when we [guido]: started watching this this movie which is pretty faithful to the novel. [rob]: Yes, [guido]: that, but I, I even said. Oh, there's two men in her life like I, I didn't even [guido]: really retain that, Even though I have since seen the musical. I've even seen the [guido]: prequel musical. and somehow that information doesn't stay in my head, but
[guido]: I like it. it's It's such a. At this point it's such a classic story, though, knowing [guido]: now that it's was only written in nineteen ten, I actually suspect that the author [guido]: must have been being inspired by a lot of stuff. It, [rob]: yeah, [guido]: so unlike something like a Dracula or Frankenstein being written in the nineteenth [guido]: century, which became [guido]: the [guido]: story at the iconic classic story that a lot of other stories would follow and pull
[guido]: from. I suspect this was not that. I, I suspect this must have pulled from. Like the [guido]: Hunchback of Notre Da, must have been [guido]: earlier than this, and there's a lot of similarities. Beauty in the Beast we talked [rob]: yeah, it was beuting the beasts as well. [guido]: about. Yeah, so but but that's fine. It is what it is and it's It's a good story.
[guido]: It's a really important story for the context of the Elsel worlds, and I think we'll [guido]: talk [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: more about that when we get into the alternate universe, [guido]: But it's [rob]: Yeah, and one one thing that this original film does, which the Andrely Weber musical, [rob]: their subsequent versions don't do, is it really keeps the Phantom as a villain all the [rob]: way through.
[rob]: There's really no redeeming moment for him, and in the musical there's a redeeming [rob]: moment. But really, when you think of it in the movie Here you know, he crashes a [rob]: chandelier on people, presumably killing. let's say at least dozens of people. He kills [rob]: a few other people by strangulation or drowning. [guido]: I'm not even convinced that all those extras survive the making of this movie.
[rob]: Yes, [guido]: There are a lot of chaotic scenes [rob]: yes, yeah, [guido]: in those with hundreds and hundreds of extras [rob]: yeah, [guido]: running around trampling over each other. [rob]: yes. [guido]: I'm not sure that everyone made it out alive. [rob]: It's really fun when you watch movies from this era compared to now, where, of course,
[rob]: when you see big scenes with extras, most of them are not real people. their C G. I, [rob]: and here, when you see a scene with hundreds of people, they are real And I was [rob]: actually reading to you right before we got on. They actually was the first set that [rob]: was actually spilt with steel in concrete, because the set this opera house had to [rob]: support hundreds of people walking on it, and the set actually remained functional and
[rob]: around until twenty fourteen. When this stage this was built on at Universal Studios [rob]: was finally destroyed, So it really shows you that this is a pretty grand movie for a [rob]: seventy plus minute silent film. [guido]: Yeah, the scale is quite large. I su. I would imagine that because it's in the public [guido]: domain. That might be why we don't of hear about it or see it. Get like commemorative [guido]: releases and all [rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: that kind of stuff that you see the Franknsteins and the Dracul get. But you know [guido]: that could be why. To me the story Iso. in terms of the importance for the purposes [guido]: that we watch today. It's dark. It's interesting How how dark it is. I think there' [guido]: some things that don't make a ton of sense to me. It doesn't make a ton of sense to [guido]: me. [guido]: Why [guido]: Stein is drawn to the Phantom Like, are we supposed to believe [guido]: that she
[guido]: is ambitious? Are we supposed [rob]: yeah, [guido]: to believe that she sort of likes the mystery, or are we supposed to believe that [guido]: he's somehow enchanting, whether that [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: be supernatural or not? Although the movie, which again, is pretty faithful to the [guido]: book makes it really clear there's nothing supernatural going on here, So I don't. I [guido]: don't love the story. I think there's some holes and those holes actually show up in
[guido]: the else worlds For me, too. That's why I'm pointing them out here. but [rob]: yeah, yeah, Andrew Luood weebber, actually, I think gives it a little bit better back [rob]: story in that way where he [rob]: has Christine, having been trained by a musician father, and the musician father is [rob]: dead before the musical begins And she really sees the Phantom as this father figure. [rob]: Yes, it is also romantic, so there's also that kind of twisted element.
[guido]: yeah, see, I'm not into any story that [rob]: Yes, [guido]: establishes a familiial relationship [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: as a template for romance or sexual, [rob]: but you know that makes me think too, where I think. Once these stories exist for as [rob]: long as they do, what we publicly know about them does get so twisted. So [guido]: Mhm.
[rob]: when when Universal Maid remade this movie in the Forties in color and sound, and as [rob]: like a real kind of semi musical with Claude Reins as the Phantom, they change the [rob]: story a lot. They did make the Phantom Christine's father, and probably more [rob]: importantly, they made the Phantom actually scarred by acid, So a lot of us now think
[rob]: of the Phantom as being scarred by acid. He is never explained in the Androloid Weber [rob]: musical, though he looks a lot more like the Claudrains Phantom than he does the Lan [rob]: Chaney Phantom, which is that classic skull face. And then, of course, for to day's [rob]: story. Yes, in this in this story Harvey is not [rob]: scarred by acid, but he is scarred there. Yeah, [guido]: but we'll get there.
[guido]: Yeah, I do think the alternate universe pulls a lot in, so we'll get there. So else [guido]: on this nineteen twenty five classic film which is definitely worth anyone watching [guido]: Be cause again. [rob]: yeah, it. [guido]: It's it's a good dark horror. There's one I really love. The one reveal I think was
[guido]: really well shot, and of course the make ups amazing. The, as you said, the sets are [guido]: cool, [rob]: Yeah, yeah, it's dreaming on Paramount Plus now, but there is also many different cuts [rob]: of it, so if you want to see you know an true black and white or different color, you [rob]: can sure find that on Youtube too. [guido]: so so let's move into the comic world.
[rob]: But let's talk. Yes at the comic world and our first ever trip to Batmanville with [guido]: Yes, [rob]: Detective Comics volume on issue number thirty three [rob]: from November, nineteen thirty nine. This is the Ba Man Wars against the Drgible of [rob]: Doom, but we're really only talking about the opening parts of this story [guido]: origin story, [rob]: of this origin story. Yes, yes,
[guido]: cause it's the origin. Yeah, so it's written by Billfinger and Gardner Fox, pencill [guido]: by Bob Kaine and Sheldon Muldoff, inked by Bob Canane, letter by Shelton Muldoff and [guido]: edited by Vincent Sullivan. We read it because he debuted six issues earlier in [guido]: Detective Comics. Twenty, seven, of course, but this is the first time his origin is
[guido]: told, and it's just on a two page total of probably twelve panels. The origin story [guido]: of Batman is told, but it's the first time that we get the parents going to the [guido]: movies getting killed by someone. Him witnessing it, him, then becoming [rob]: that pearl necklace. there's always that necklace. [guido]: Yes, which becomes really important in the else worlds. The [rob]: Yes, [guido]: he, he has the wealth. he becomes a scientist. he trains his body and then he needs
[guido]: to disguise. He wants something that strikes fear into people and he decides a bat is [guido]: an omen that flies in his window, and he's going to be Batman, so [rob]: no, Alfred, Al Alfred is not there. [guido]: Yeah, well, it's and it's kept really tight. They [rob]: Yes, [guido]: expand on it, actually, at eleven issues later in Detective Comics Forty four a bit, [guido]: But we wanted the first time that we get this outing into Batman's Origin, and it was
[guido]: my first time reading this early Batman. I think I've read Detective comics Twenty [guido]: seven, Be cause that's been reprinted so many times and is just something. But this [guido]: is might be my first time reading this, and it's fun. I mean, I' have more to say [guido]: when we get to the next readed that we did, which is a few years later, but this one [guido]: was fun to see and very pulp art, which I like. [rob]: Yes, [rob]: very very short. I'm curious why they
[rob]: how they decided to do this. Why they decided to put his origin story [rob]: several several issues after he premiered, but also wagged. Tack it on to this other [rob]: story. The rest of the story is about a guy who thinks hes Napoleon and looks like [rob]: Napoleon, and he's got dirigible with a deathy. [guido]: Well, I'm not. I mean, I'm not not an expert at Batman, but from what I know about a [guido]: lot of the comics or the pulp transition to comic stuff, the
[guido]: no one knew what was going to hit it was. it was supposed to be ephemeral, and so [guido]: Batman was probably put in Detective comics Twenty seven and no one had origin [guido]: stories. No one started at the beginning. Characters were just sort of dropped in. [guido]: Sometimes you get a slight explanation for how they have powers or why or something, [guido]: and that would be like a one sentence thing. And then once it hit it was probably
[guido]: like Hey, let's let's add a little meat on the bones and they went back again. This [guido]: is only five issues. After that, they're adding a little bit. Then ten issues later, [guido]: they add some more, so I suspect it had to do with that that it, that man was not [guido]: constructed to be a hundred year massive global phenomenon. So [rob]: Yes, [guido]: they weren't starting the story from the beginning. [guido]: But let's jump into the next one. Be cause.
[rob]: yes, [guido]: That's where you got a good feel for Golden Age Detective comics, [rob]: Yes, Learn about that character. We all know Apollo Kent, [rob]: and [rob]: in Detective Comics one issue number sixty six. this is from August Nineteen, forty [rob]: two, and it's called the Crimes of Two Face.
[guido]: and it's written by Bill Finger, pencill by Bob Ke, inked by Jerry Robinson and Geor [guido]: Joruso's letter by Irish Knop, and edited by Whitney Elsworth, We read this be cause [guido]: it is the first appearance of Two Face [guido]: and I have to say you know we were talking a bit about how you're going to construct [guido]: the list for this episode and I mention to you that with any of the D, C, especially
[guido]: the Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman characters, you have to decide between if. [guido]: You're going to choose like the Golden Age first appearance with a silver [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: Ag. first appearance, Because there's such a difference. Sometimes they abandoned [guido]: things completely, or the characterization is different. We went with the first [guido]: appearance of Two Face, which is Golden Age, and I am so glad we did cause it [rob]: Yes,
[guido]: is so great. Everything [rob]: yes, [guido]: about your face that I love, and I bet you love. Is there the look, the style, the [guido]: the hoakiness, the silliness, the extreme nature, though of [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: the villain side of him, [guido]: I, I loved it. [rob]: Yeah, and did you know notice this ghto, I. This is probably a coincidence, but maybe
[rob]: it's not that this is issue sixty six, So double six. The previous issue we just [rob]: discussed was thirty three, double three, lots of two phase, doubling two of one number [guido]: I did notice the relationship between the two that we read were [rob]: in there. [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: thirty three and sixty six, [rob]: Yes, which,
[guido]: which I think is meaningless. Uh, and I suspect it was also meaningless in the [guido]: construction of this character, Although I do love that he tries to shoehorn like all [guido]: of his crimes are related to twos. [rob]: yes, Yes, Well, that's what it really made me remind me of on the sixties show Which [rob]: two faces I mentioned is not a a character. but where you have you know H. every single [rob]: thing [guido]: Yeah,
[rob]: is egg related, So you definitely get that nice tie in here. Everything has to be [rob]: doubles in some way, All crimes. [guido]: this issue. I mean, it's nineteen forty two, but this issue was [guido]: so the Sixty six series. [rob]: Yes, totally, [guido]: It's so campy There's Batman and Robin Both make these ridiculous puns. I love. At [guido]: one point that man knocks out when he's stealing people's spirs, and he says
[guido]: collecting fairs Here. See how you fare with this like there's just absurd puns that [guido]: you can totally hear the Batman Sixty Six Adam West show using. So I, I love that. [rob]: and it's not. it's not Robin. It's Batman, at some point, even says Holy something in [rob]: the way that Robin than would on on the Tv show.
[guido]: Yeah, so you can see a lot of the inspiration for that That silliness is here. People [guido]: who think that that you know really went away from the comics, obviously aren't [guido]: familiar with these early comics that lean into that absurdity. You know, two faces [guido]: projecting himself on the movie screen, [rob]: I love that. [guido]: T. To to steal everything in the movie theater, and that's really fun. And then even
[guido]: the fight occurs in front of the movie screen. First of all, they interrupt a [guido]: Superman movie that everyone's watching in the theater [rob]: Yes, super meta right there, Yeah, [guido]: and then and then, But but then Batman and Two Face are fighting in front of the
[guido]: screen and it says it's like the weirdest backdrop he's ever fought in front of. And [guido]: there's so many cool moments like [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: that, And then, of course [guido]: I have a lot of connections through our else world al in my mind in this issue, but [guido]: it opens with him reading Doctor Jackle and Mister [rob]: Yes, [guido]: Hyde, So it really is right away saying like this character [guido]: is pulling on the existing classical literature
[guido]: set up of this monster with two [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: faces or this perr, this man monster, dichotomy, struggle, I appreciate that. [rob]: Jack and Mister Hyde is even really more appropriate than the Phantom because you have [rob]: Doctor Jack as that upstanding member of society, and then Mister Hyde as the
[rob]: embodiment of evil. So you really even get it even more through that story. But as you [rob]: said, it's very interesting that he has always been connected to the literary past in [rob]: some way. [guido]: Yeah, and then there's little things like something that will come up in the phantom, [guido]: Is there's the stuff with the mirrors. That. how [rob]: Yes,
[guido]: jackal and hyd he doesn't want the mirrors around. I mean, I even just call him [guido]: Jaquline Hyde, Two Face doesn't want the mirrors around. [guido]: The [guido]: other thing that I thought was really interesting was [guido]: how faithful he is to [rob]: the coin. [guido]: the premise. Yeah, [rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: well, and and the premise? I mean, Yes, the coin, but even just the idea that like [guido]: No, if I. I, I like that those panels where like one day he decides it's going to be [guido]: an evil day and he robs a bank, and the next day he decides it's going to be a good [guido]: day and he gives money to a charity. Like he robs, he, he steals from another robber [guido]: and gives it to a charity. [rob]: yes, [guido]: So it it, it's very interesting that that he has.
[rob]: that's [guido]: he's really fifty fifty. [rob]: yeah. and that's one element of the character that, as far as I know, they didn't k. [rob]: but it is actually kind of very interesting. I almost regret that we don't see that now [rob]: where if it does land on the good side of the coin, not only does he just not kill [rob]: someone or do something bad, but in fact he does something good. [guido]: Yeah, I think that's still present. It's [rob]: Oh, is it Yeah?
[guido]: present to bid. and yeah, I think what I think. what changes what's not here? [guido]: and [guido]: well, his willll talk about his. The personalities the way that [rob]: Yes, [guido]: that the two faces become two parts of his personality which is [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: not really present here. [rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: He iss a little bit more unified. Although they do you talk about getting him help [guido]: with a doctor because of him because of his, uh, his, the way his he is, and it's [guido]: more about his scars, But it seems like there's a little mental healthll, stuff when [guido]: Batman and Anne tries to redeem him and the the coin gets stuck in the crack And I [guido]: like that it's the crack in the middle of his apartment, because he has the dark half
[guido]: of the apartment and the light half of the apartment, which is very. [rob]: Yes, Yes, which is so sixties T V show, and also [guido]: Oh no. it's very Batman forever, [rob]: Oh and Badman forever. I mean I, two of them. I mean, I think that man forever took so [rob]: much from the Sixty show in that way. but yes, Tomly Jones's place with Dre. Barry [rob]: Moore and Deviy Mays are totally yes. Yeah,
[guido]: so I like that the coin gets stuck there. So yeah, I, I loved reading this and I [guido]: think it was really important for our [rob]: And [guido]: our trip through the Multiarth. [rob]: and we should say too. The reason why he can't get his face fixed is that Well, there's [rob]: one scientist in all the or surgeon all the world who would be able to fix his face. [rob]: However, he's been captured by the Nazis.
[guido]: Oh yes, and well, no, I think he dies in the concentration camp, but I. I. I like the [guido]: Batman says the devils after that like, [rob]: No, he hasn't died there. because that's what. at the end you know they talk about [rob]: that. you know they can wait for him. maybe to be released. [guido]: Oh, the Nazis put him into a concentration camp. [rob]: Yes,
[guido]: That's true and it is nineteen forty two. Actually, [rob]: it is nineteen forty two, So [guido]: Wow, so it's contemporary to the war. [rob]: it was very striking that they included. included that. in there. An interesting. you [rob]: know, another, [rob]: another, another crime of the Nazis is that they're actually creating crime and Gotham [rob]: city. [guido]: Yeah, [guido]: well, the last thing is you, just to mention for anyone who's not seen this and is
[guido]: not familiar, Harvey nickname Apollo Kent, it's Harvey Dent. We discovered that they [guido]: later changed his name so he wouldn't get confused with Clarkent, but he [rob]: Yes, [guido]: debuted as Harvey Apollo Kent, [rob]: it makes a [rob]: lot of sense. because why would you name another character Kent, and also why does he [guido]: So yeah, I agree. [rob]: need this other nickname as well,
[guido]: Yeah, but it was a lot. I recommend it. a Detective comics Thirty three is really [guido]: oddly, not [guido]: able to be read digitally. It's very odd for some of these early essential detective [guido]: comics. I'm not sure why perhaps a listener knows why there are these holes and or [guido]: why they don't want it to be out or something, but Detective Comic Sixty Six is [guido]: available. [rob]: So I'm going to flip my coin to see if we are going to move on to the next section of
[rob]: the podcast? Oh, [guido]: I wish I had a coin flip sound effect. [rob]: it landed on. Yes, So we will be exploringity, [rob]: and today, we, as the leading as leading this meeting of the council, dear watchers, we
[rob]: have dedicated this else world to answering the question. What if Face was the Phantom [rob]: of the Opera, and that means we are going to be exploring Mask with Aq you fancy in [rob]: European from [guido]: Well, Batman mask, [rob]: October nineteen ninety seven, Oh, Batman con Mask from October nineteen ninety seven.
[guido]: So this is written by Mike Gral, who also does the pencils and the inks colored by [guido]: Andrea Kromv, who also is credited with separations and lettered by John Casanza, [guido]: It's edited by Mark Carlin, Denis O'neiil and Darren Vntenzo So this is the last
[guido]: episode We gave a good history of else worlds If you want to go back and listen. This [guido]: is actually about exactly halfway in the run of else worlds, so we of good six years [guido]: into the brand, and it's at its pe, perhaps at this time, and this was one of the
[guido]: prestige single issue format, so it's a little longer in a square bound. ▁quote unote [guido]: trade paperback, a prestige comic, Mike Grell is a very, very well known [guido]: D C, writer and artist started in the seventies, probably most well known for Green [guido]: Arrow, worked on both the Green Lantern Green Arrow iconic run from the seventies, [guido]: but then came back and did Longbow Hunters, and a lot of the Green Arrow run.
[guido]: Prior to this, I think this Nineteen ninety seven Batman mask, I think is a return to [guido]: D C. for him. Although the majority of his career is D. C. In the two thousands, he [guido]: does a little bit of Marvel, but then, in fact, keeps going back to D. C. and there [guido]: wasn't much that I could find in the way of reflection on this issue. The origin of [guido]: the issue.
[guido]: Behind the scenes, There are a good amount of microil interviews out there and I [guido]: didn't read everything, but I did look for any references to Mask and couldn't find [guido]: them. [guido]: So this issue, [guido]: I guess, let's start with overall reactions. [rob]: Overall reactions is is kind of going to. I guess the question here, which is you know
[rob]: we were saying that this is what if Two Face was the Phantom of the Opera? It's kind of [rob]: also, what if Batman was the Phantom of the Opera, as well, Because we take elements of [rob]: the Phantom story, [rob]: and and put them into both characters. So it interesting in that way, and I think that [rob]: also makes it a little unclear. And what Miel might have been trying to say,
[rob]: because we have harve. Of course, [rob]: he' got to revenge the obsession, love, obsession element of the Phantom, Then that man [rob]: has a course of hiding in the shadows there. and also, of course all the setting is [rob]: pure Phantom of the Opera, with the mirrors and the giant candles and everything like [rob]: that, and also his relationship with the heroine. So I thought they kind of was having, [rob]: because it was divided between those two characters. It wasn't necessarily the
[rob]: cleanest. What did you think in that regard? [guido]: You jumped right into analysis, so [guido]: blowing past overall opinion and experience of reading it, I. I think that's true. I [guido]: think it. I think Bruce is expressing a little bit of the questions of the Phantom, [guido]: the Darkness within, and all of that. I think it's you know. It's one of the Elsel
[guido]: worlds which there was a very common thing for else worlds. In fact, in some of the [guido]: interviews I saw some of the creators, including I think Mark Wade were reflecting on [guido]: how else world's kind of lost its way by just saying like, Oh, what if we put Batman [guido]: in? you know, Thirteenth century Rome or something? And [guido]: this is one of the many literary
[guido]: else worlds that were created. There's a lot of them a really good number. including, [guido]: of course, as we talked about the first else worlds, technically, though not by Brand [guido]: being set in Jack the Ripper. That's not literary, but it's at the same time anyway. [guido]: I think that I like the mapping on to an existing thing. I. I really like that a lot. [guido]: I like that. Mi Gll. wanted to say, Yeah, What if Batman happened in the times of
[guido]: Phantom of the Opera and it's not a perfect one to one. I mean, you're right. [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: I noticed, and having just watched the movie this morning, there's that amazing like [guido]: ship bed that Christine wakes up in that the [rob]: Yes,
[guido]: Phantom has, and in this there's this huge wooden constructed bat bed. And that's so [guido]: clearly from the movie, which means that Mike Gra is is sort of position Bruce as the [guido]: Phantom, [rob]: yeah, yeah, [guido]: and so I, I agree, There's a little bit of attention there, but I also just like that [guido]: it's not
[guido]: again. It's not a one to one mapping. It doesn't work perfectly, and that I think [guido]: makes it a little better, makes it a little more interesting because it's not like [guido]: just retelling Phantom of the Opera, but with Harvey Denta, the Phantom and Bruce [guido]: Wayne as Raoul or whatever his name is. [rob]: cause the famous real unmasking sequence really doesn't belong to Harvey. It really [rob]: belongs to Ba, man.
[guido]: Yeah, [rob]: It's the heroine whos unmasking came in having that famous moment from the movie and [rob]: the musical course. Harvey gets unmassed later. But like it almost seems like an [rob]: afterthough because it's not being done by our female lead. [guido]: No, no, so that's what I like is. I think he's just using the elements of. In fact, [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: I think he's using the elements of all over the different versions of the property.
[guido]: So you had mentioned that in the Forties movie he gets burned by acid, And that's [guido]: more what happens here. I mean he's getting burned by the stage light, but it [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: feels similar enough in that so clearly he's pulling on that And then there was [guido]: something in this [guido]: that made me think a lot about the musical. Um, I don't know if it was
[guido]: because in the musical he did. he is. We are supposed to believe he's sort of [guido]: hypnotizing her right, [rob]: yeah, I think [rob]: yes, and no, I mean, I think that is an element of the that could be read as an element [rob]: of the story. [guido]: so I don't know if it's that. I don't know. I, I know there was stuff in here that I [guido]: saw that I was like. Okay. That wasn't in the nineteen twenty five movie. I don't
[guido]: know if it's in the Nineteen Forties movie, but it definitely is in the musical. So [guido]: it feels like he's pulling from. Yeah, everything we know of Phantom of the Opera, [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: and then building this slightly different story in this world. [guido]: And and I really enjoyed it. for that reason. A lot. I enjoyed the questions it [guido]: posed. [guido]: The [rob]: Well, I, [guido]: pearls you had mentioned earlier, come up as like a symbol because [rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: he refers to his origin, Then the main character who is Laura? In this. For some [guido]: reason [guido]: she leaves and leaves the pearls that Bruce had given her. [guido]: He left with a loss, and this strand of pearls on the ground. [rob]: Yeah, he has this amazing line about his origin story, which we we see briefly, but he [rob]: says on a street cornering, Gothha, murder was the midwife. My birth cry was a cry for [rob]: vengeance.
[guido]: a lot of the writing I love. I [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: really love [guido]: it. It's over written in that perfect way with the [rob]: yeah, [guido]: flourishes and the flare. It's not over and it's actually quite a sparse written [guido]: piece. [rob]: yes, [guido]: perhaps because Gll was doing the art [rob]: art as well, Yeah, [guido]: also, and art is amazing. I love the art. [rob]: yes, the art is very. I. It reminded me I had to look at up the the Nineteen Eighty
[rob]: Nine comic book adaptation. The art is by G, uh, Jerry Orderway, but it has a similar [rob]: style to that where I don't know it. Just it just walks the perfect line between, [rob]: little more sketchy, a little bit more cartoony, but also has that darkness to it. I [guido]: See it feels. it feels very vertigical to me. [rob]: think it works really well here. [rob]: Mhm. I can [guido]: Verig. Coms.
[rob]: see that too. Yeah, and I think in In that. In what you were saying, too, Gto, I think [rob]: like what does work really well Here is this could have easily. They could have easily [rob]: gone super dark super bleak with this, but there is a lightnessing tone, not really [rob]: joky, but it remains kind of almost at that serial pace, which is interesting to think [rob]: that the original Phantom novel was originally serialized before was put into novel
[rob]: form. This actually does have that kind of fast paced. you know, slightly lighter [rob]: element to it. It doesn't have that super dark Fra Miller Batman feel to it. [guido]: No, we just talked about with Eworld's last week. That else, worlds [guido]: seem to generally have a little bit more room to breathe. And what? if so Thejil a [guido]: created equal as these two forty page issues, so it gives you a lot more density in
[guido]: world building. and in this case, while this is a a longer [guido]: extended prestige issue, I think it's in fact longer. Because of the art. He's doing [guido]: so many huge two page double page spreads with these splash pages, these broken [guido]: panels, Which is clearly why Andre Kromov is credited with separation right. He [guido]: probably helped with a lot of the design of Grill's art, but it. it's very cool
[guido]: looking and so yeah, this this doesn't extend. I think it would have been darker. My [guido]: point is is, I think the world would have been darker, heavier, bleaker, [guido]: and perhaps just a little bit much if the expanded space had been used for story and [guido]: plot and dialogue, But it's in fact used for art here, and so I think [rob]: Yes, Mhm, [rob]: Yes, [guido]: that keeps the story a little briefer, but visually stunning.
[rob]: and on that I would imagine Mirailway back and rew the Lawn Chaney movie, because [rob]: Harvey's outfit is dressed exactly like the Red Death outfit in Theney movie, which [rob]: they also used in the musical. The overall aesthetic of Actually, Batman's Know, Layer [rob]: of the back cave looks very similar. [guido]: That opening panel looks like the set you were [guido]: describing in the Nineteen twenty Five scene, Because you have you know, even though
[rob]: Mhm. Yeah, totally [guido]: it's whatever it is, The eighteen seventies, you do have Alfred come down to the [guido]: backtcave in like a very old tiny elevator. If those even existed. I'm not [rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: even sure. But so you and then you have all the like stillilac types, and so it [guido]: creates a huge multi [guido]: multilevel cave, which is what's in the Nineteen twenty Five movie And it's shown a [guido]: few times Because he kidnaps her and they run down it and they go back and forth and [guido]: it looks like a maze or a [rob]: Yes, [guido]: ▁zigzag. So I, I think for sure he was trying to do an omage to the visuals of the [guido]: Nineteen twenty Five movie, [rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: which is really cool. [rob]: Yeah, overall, I think I think this is definitely [guido]: Yeah, what else do you think about it? [rob]: worth worth of. Read. Its interesting, too. We were mentioning a lot about the Sixties [rob]: show when we were talking about the A Golden Age and uh, I didn't get a chance to
[rob]: research this before we started recording. So if anyone listening wants to write to us [rob]: on Twitter, I'd love to hear when Chif Ohara was introduced into comic World, because I [rob]: thought he was just a Sixties T V show character, but we actually get to see him as [rob]: like an old Ty, Bobby, British Bobby type. [guido]: Well, and for sure, I mean, this is Nineteen Ninety seven. I thought for sure Grell
[guido]: was echoing him, because he even says like byglly by Gosh begara or something. so. F. [rob]: Yes, it's like catch phrases from the show [guido]: Yeah, [rob]: Tv show. Yeah, [guido]: so whether he predated the Adam West series or not, I think Michrael is definitely [guido]: writing [rob]: oh yeah, [guido]: Ohara that we knew from the Nineteen sixty Six [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: T V show, which was really fun.
[rob]: Mhm, [guido]: Yeah, I think [guido]: I think it added a lot of depth [guido]: making the story allusion to the existing story of Phantom the Opera, [guido]: which is not widely enough known that I know it very well. [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: I. I, using that as using that as a measure of how many people know the story, [guido]: Although I guess tens of millions have seen the Broadway show, but I think it's a
[guido]: good vehicle to explore Bruce. So what? That's What's interesting about this is and [guido]: will get into this mo. get to our next issue. But it explores Bruce more than [guido]: explores Harvey as a [rob]: Yes, [guido]: character in this and [guido]: I'm okay [rob]: it. [guido]: with that, but it. it does make it different from the source material. in that way. [rob]: If anything, I like, I would have liked to have seen this actually, Ex, not super long,
[rob]: but expanded over. maybe just one more issue. Give it a little bit more room to breathe [rob]: to explore. Ha, both of those characters. Because as you just said, most of Harvey, [rob]: you know, we only see a hand, you know as he's you know, he does Vvaria, Elizabeth [rob]: Berkeley, knocking the one main Vllerina down, and uh, to get the the Herund study, he [rob]: kills the one guy really well with the like by putting like beer barrels, kills them [rob]: with like beer barrels. Maybe,
[rob]: but most of it we isn't that cool. Yeah, yeah, but most [guido]: Yeah, and then it says mysterious Death in the newspaper [guido]: Bizarre mishap, [rob]: of it we just see him on the on the fringes until kind of the the climax, and most of [rob]: it is the Bruce story. So it' been fun to have it. give it. Give it. maybe a little bit [rob]: more room to breathe there. Maybe see like what is Harvey, And you know our female
[rob]: protagonists relationship. Really, Because that's kind of glossed over. and you were [rob]: saying that's kind of a problem with a lot of these phantom stories. [guido]: So I'm guessing that's your answer to. If you want to go back, we've never gone back.
[guido]: There are some else worlds, as I mentioned in the last episode. There are some else [guido]: worlds that got sequels got follow ups, or sometimes that universe has shown up in [guido]: the multi verse of D. C. This is not one that I could find any [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: information or evidence that it has ever been seen again. So you on a slightly longer [guido]: story.
[guido]: I don't know if you want to go back otherwise. for more stories in this world, I [guido]: mean, I think it is an interesting, because the focus is on Bruce. [guido]: There. There are potentially more stories to tell [rob]: yes, [guido]: here with Bruce becoming more of the Phantom analoge, [guido]: Because [rob]: yp,
[guido]: Harvey is is almost a a cipher. It's almost a misdirrection that Gll is doing here [guido]: where we think that Two Face is going to be the Phantom of the Opera, and [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: while he takes on the role of murderer of villain [guido]: of trying to seduce this person, Bruce is in fact the Phantom of the Opera, the one [guido]: struggling with the darkness, the one struggling with, You know, In the old movie [guido]: Phantom always talks about, Um,
[guido]: Bringing the love will bring out the good in him, and Bruce and Laura have that here, [guido]: so that's how Bruce becomes more of the Phantom, I say so. I think there are more [guido]: stories to tell in this world by the right person revisiting it. I don't need it. I
[guido]: don't necessily want. I don't have the ideas. but I think there are more stories to [guido]: tell [rob]: yeah, yeah, well, and typically, in a lot of other Phantom adaptations, including the [rob]: Mo the Lan Chaneing movie and in the Manre, ▁lloyd Webber, the Phantoms [rob]: fate is often left ambiguous Here. It's It's pretty clear and it has the course. it [rob]: ends with the great, [rob]: The The Thing that's in all phantom versions, which is the chandelier falling down. But
[rob]: here Harvey is on the chandelier and it's pretty clear from the arc that he. He also is [rob]: dying in [guido]: Explodes. Yeah, [rob]: the explosion as well, so I don't think he's still around, but I guess you could still [rob]: maybe work out some kind of story where he did live and he's extracting his revenge. [guido]: but you don't even need him. I mean again, Bruce is the Phantom [rob]: True.
[guido]: Bruces, Now the one that we are led to [guido]: understand struggles with darkness and needs to figure out how to [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: deal with that, which is of course the core of Batman's character. So [rob]: Yes, as we, Yeah, as we kind of move into our, our, our, our future issues. I think one [rob]: of the things we talked about is that is such so inherent to the Batman character And
[rob]: you even saw it in the new The New Mat Reeves movie, which is Oh, Who is the real? Is [rob]: Bruce, the real person or his Batman, the real [guido]: Mhm, [rob]: person, and that idea of the mask, where Harvey always has this scarred face. He's [rob]: almost always wearing a mask, but Bruce can take it off. But who's the real you know [rob]: monster there? and I think that's something you've seen so much in the Batman Lor.
[rob]: but we will [rob]: dide our shand are falling chandelier into the future [guido]: I knew you were going to struggle for one. there. [rob]: and we will ponder some possibilities. [rob]: Soo. how did you come up with this list of possibilities this week? [guido]: Well, surprise to our listeners, you did, but I'll give. I'll give some context and [guido]: then you can explain, [rob]: One one is thirty nine. That's going to be my new schedule. Yeah,
[guido]: but ill, I'll give some context. So while we were looking at what the else world [guido]: story was doing, [guido]: We, obviously it focused more on that man, but that man again has [guido]: thousands of stories. [guido]: hundreds of huge stories, and certainly at least dozens iconics of iconic stories. A [guido]: lot of which deal with that premise that the else worlds is is tugging at is pulling [guido]: from. in terms of
[guido]: what you just said, Who wears the Ma. Is he the mask or is he Bruce? Is he darker as [guido]: he light? What pulls them out of the darkness? Why does he do this? All those [guido]: questions are such a part of Batman that it felt like that was not the the strand of [guido]: this else world to pull at for our sakes. Because it would just be too big and too
[guido]: overwhelming, so he decided to focus in on two face. But as we talked about in the [guido]: beginning, neither of us know to face particularly well, so you did a little [guido]: research. And how do you come upon the issue that we read? [rob]: yes, I was looking up some of the most iconic Two Face stories and Two Face, Probably [rob]: more than anyone else has had thingsckon, and things change sometimes that he' put back
[rob]: to normal. But I was looking for a story that had a romantic element, so I was able to [rob]: actually find a story where Two Face has this romantic obsession with another [rob]: character, who in this case is actually Renee Montoya, And that romantic obsession is [rob]: something that is always a through line throughout all of the different Phantom [rob]: stories. So it's a pretty uh, as good of a match as I think we can findide, that it's a
[rob]: pretty good one here. So this is Gotha Central volume one, issue ten from October, two [rob]: thousand and three, and this is half a life. Part five. [guido]: Its, written by Gregrocka pencilled and inked by Michael Lark, colored by Lelod, [guido]: lettered by Willi Schubert, and edited by Matt Adisson and Nachi Castro, And as Rober
[guido]: described why we read it, I'll add a few things that come from the plot. So he [guido]: kidnaps Rename Anoya, who he's been blackmailing outs, is a lesbian, essentially [guido]: black mailing. I guess there's a mystery. She's an accused murderer, taking the rap [guido]: for something. one of Two Faces gang. Did she kidnaps him and it's this lavish, [rob]: He kidnaps her. [guido]: very Victorian manner. What. [rob]: He kidnaps her. You said she kidnaps [rob]: Himly. who wears the mask.
[rob]: Himly. who wears the mask. [guido]: Oh yes, [guido]: who kidnaps who? Um, [guido]: So it's it looks. It has these long red curtains. There's a chandelier. He is like [guido]: forcing her to eat. I mean, it's very beauty in the beast, very Phantom Christine, [guido]: for sure, And then [guido]: the one reveal. that also is huge. As then she pulls the curtains down to escape, and [guido]: they discover their underground. In fact, so [rob]: Yes, classic Phantom, move there.
[guido]: so, I don't know how much Roka or Lark were conscious of an influence a Phantom of [guido]: the Opera on this, but there is definitely some visual elements that we didn't even [guido]: know about going into this. What did you think of the story? [guido]: Otherwise [rob]: I really like it. Obviously we're coming into it in in the middle of this arc, but I [rob]: really thought, kind of going back to what we were saying before about two face that
[rob]: sometimes he can be maybe a little bit more sympathetic. and here I think like he has [rob]: some really great [rob]: evil moments and [guido]: he's horrible. [rob]: yet you can. Yeah, Yeah, totally yeah. she's trying to appeal to the Harvey that she [rob]: used to know, but really she' just getting you know this evil, this evil two face [rob]: throughout it.
[guido]: Yeah, it's very interesting to me how [guido]: horrible he is Now this, I think leans more into what's ▁ultimately added to his [guido]: character. This idea that he has sort of two personalities, [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: because even the speech bubbles will change when [rob]: Yes, [guido]: if we slit them as Harvey and two face, when their two face, the speech bubbles have [guido]: jagged lines around them. and when it's Harvey, they have smooth lines around them.
[guido]: But whether it's Harvey or Two Face, I mean, even though Harvey's telling her like, [guido]: Oh, I got you tiar mesiu for for dessert, like he still has kidnapped this woman [rob]: yes, [guido]: that he knowses, a lesbian that he got framed for murder. Outed as a lesbian, has [guido]: kidnapped and brought into this like basement dining room dungeon. [guido]: So so both Two Face and Harvey are really really the the [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: evilest evil that evil can be.
[rob]: Well, and I think that's where the Phantom Story and and the Phantom Musical kind of [rob]: story has not aged very well. It's very not me too. Because [rob]: any idea that this that Christina, or whoever our female hero is at the time would fall [rob]: for this person who ▁ultimately has kidnapped her, her, and his coorcing her. So
[rob]: there's always that little. It's like, Oh, that doesn't really sit super well. So it's [rob]: great here that they just you know, don't don't don't try to pretend that she's going [rob]: to fall for him. I mean, she's a lesbian too, but it's just really embracing how much [rob]: that he's Oh, He's just like this gross kidnapper.
[guido]: Yeah, and she doesn't even you know that Rocka who I love Rua is one of my favorite [guido]: authors and his work with Michael Lark, is the two of them together Are [guido]: extraordinary, Lazarus is an amazing amazing title. totally separate from this, but [guido]: they never have her [guido]: like Play the game with him, which I feel like [rob]: Yes, [guido]: is a trope You'd see a [rob]: totally
[guido]: lot. Is is like her, you know, pretending that she' is going to go along with it like [guido]: from the beginning she is the kick ass hard edged Renee Motoya, that we know, [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: and she stays consistent through that. And while Batman does ▁ultimately come to be [guido]: the one to save her, I think it still [guido]: is fun that she's so [guido]: unwilling to [guido]: deal with the awful things that are happening around her and to her, [rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: so Yeah, it is fun to read. I mean, I love Lark's art. I love Rockus writing, so I [guido]: read anything, [rob]: and so much of this too. Playing with that idea of [rob]: the dual life [rob]: that we su courses see with Bruce and Batman, and that is talked a lot of explicitly in [rob]: the else world, but here with Renee living this life of a closeted lesbian, not letting [rob]: her family know who's very religious and prejudiced and her living this double life.
[rob]: And that's one of the reasons why it seems that Two Face has has outed her because of [rob]: that that double aspect. So again we kind of get that and it's interesting, Hear that [rob]: we get it through not through a superhero of secret identity context, but through a [rob]: different kind of identity. [guido]: though, I have to say, that's one thing. I was really hoping there would be an [guido]: explicit connection made about going in and didn't happen, So I don't know.
[guido]: I don't know if Rucka wasn't making that connection or if he chose not to make it [guido]: explicit, or if there was perhaps any sort of editorial interference, although she [guido]: does end up kissing her girlfriend in the end, so I doubt that, but yeah, I was [guido]: hoping that two face would somehow liken his experience [guido]: of of being, too, and split to the experience of being in the closet, but it doesn't [guido]: ever happen explicitly, but I definitely [rob]: No,
[guido]: saw that potential there, too. [rob]: And and Renee's parents are just so awful. [rob]: they they? They're not really sure what's worse that their daughter is gay or that your [rob]: daughter is an accused murderer. [guido]: Yeah, [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: yeah, [guido]: so do you think that Batman Mask inspired this in any way? [rob]: I kind of think now that we're talking about it, I. I kind of totally see it having [rob]: inspired it. In some case it's interesting.
[guido]: I mean. I don't know if it did or just Phantom did right [rob]: Yes, yeah, [guido]: like it. It might not be that it was Batman mask. It just might be that [guido]: again. it might even been Michael Lark. Just in the visuals was thinking about [guido]: Phantom of the Opera, and thinking about this, who, this person whos kidnapped a [guido]: woman and is trying to to seduce her. [rob]: yes, totally I. I. I agree, and I think, because mask is, sometimes, as we were saying,
[rob]: it goes back and forth and really Harvey's not always the most phantom Ek in mask. I [rob]: could totally just see him taking not not just from masks, but also I, Even in the [rob]: Batman Eighty Nine movie, there's a beauty in the Beast of Reference, so that that has [rob]: always been just, I guess so key to these characters. [guido]: Yeah, [guido]: so any concluding thoughts with all the story, we've explored [guido]: the [rob]: Well, [guido]: impact of the else world's story.
[guido]: I mean, one [rob]: I think [guido]: thing I was thinking about with [rob]: Yeah, [guido]: the Els Worldlds [guido]: was what other Batman villains [guido]: could be [guido]: transposed on to a classic film. I think it's a a. A fun thing to think about, [guido]: because again I think this works really well because it doesn't do a literal, [guido]: a little, a literal interpretation of Phantom of the Opera, just sort of uses the
[guido]: elements and the characters and then starts to adapt them and bat and villains. I [guido]: mean, he has such a cody of villains to choose from, [rob]: totally well, you can even stay in Universal Horror World and put Hush as the Invisible [rob]: Man, [rob]: both, [guido]: But that's just a. That's just an aesthetic thing, [guido]: Like they look alike. I [rob]: Mhm. [guido]: don't know if there's a personality thing. [rob]: Well, well, what [guido]: I, I'll I have an idea.
[rob]: about? Oh? sorry. Yeah, Go ahead. [guido]: My thinking is [guido]: horly as The Bride of Frankenstein, [rob]: Yeah, totally, [guido]: and I honestly, it's it is mostly visually interesting to me, but obviously, for [guido]: obvious reasons, with Anantom, the Opera being a universal movie from the twenties, I [guido]: was thinking I was stuck in universal horror references and thinking well, there are
[guido]: else worlds about Frankenstein and there are else worlds about Dracula. They're also [guido]: less interesting. You and I both really like the Bride of Frankkenstein, and really [guido]: like Elsa Lachester, who played the Bride of Frankenstein with such little screen [guido]: time and so much personality. And so I was thinking well, that's very Harley, Margo, [guido]: Robbie. Like [rob]: but also think. [guido]: this very charismatic Likekooki [rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: character who is visually really striking, Um, has elements of like death and [guido]: ▁zobiism in her [guido]: appearance, but is also very beautiful and goth. [rob]: Yes, but if you think of it too like [rob]: Harley is the Joker's Bride, in a way, and this [guido]: I know I was trying to separate that, though, for me I don't want to, I don't want to [guido]: define her in the context of a [rob]: Sure,
[guido]: man. So, even though the Bride of Frankns doesn't have her own name, [rob]: yes, [guido]: so there's [rob]: yeah, [guido]: nothing like being defined in the context of a man other than being nameless The [guido]: Bride of [guido]: Frankenstein, [rob]: Mhm. Mhm, what? what about sticking on this universal? What about the penguin and the [guido]: So's true? [rob]: The Gilman, the creature from the Black Lagoon
[rob]: Water? And and they both have the more tragic kind of going back to that tragic [rob]: elements of both of them? [rob]: Course, the Guilman never speaks. So you know that I can kind of see a little bit there [guido]: Yeah, potentially. [guido]: yeah. [rob]: or the [guido]: I, I can't remember Creature from the Black Ofgoon story enough to know if if it [guido]: would work well with good penguin [guido]: references. That's the other reason I think Harley Bride works is because [rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: yeah, you have this. She was created [guido]: by someone else [rob]: Yes, [guido]: aspect to story. [rob]: totally. [guido]: so [guido]: yeah, [rob]: I'm also thinking you know again, on Universal monsters, there iss a little. [rob]: maybe not the creature but Doctor Frankenstein, and and Roszal Goul. That idea of of [rob]: continuing life, that like ▁quest, for immortality, or even Dracula and Rosalgul, and [rob]: that, in that regard even probably better. Yeah.
[guido]: oh, well, that, I mean there are there. are. There are else worlds that Pulla, that [rob]: okay, yeah, cause yeah, [guido]: there's one I was just looking at That has Taalally Algul in some weird stuff, so [guido]: yes, I think we'll revisit that for sure. [rob]: Mhm, [guido]: connection. [guido]: Well, anyth anything else on the impact of Batman Mask in this trip through the multi [guido]: verse,
[rob]: yeah, Ij. I just think yeah, I. I. I am curious. I know there's lots of other, and I'm [rob]: sure we'll explore some of them on the podcast Other Batman literary crossovers with [rob]: Love Craft. I think there is a Jaqueline hidee, which we mentioned as well, so I'm [rob]: looking forward to seeing more how they're able to put this iconic character into these [rob]: literary worlds, [guido]: Yeah, well, [rob]: and
[rob]: until then we're going to close the book. Speaking of literature, close the book on [rob]: this bladcast [guido]: I should have continued interrupting you. I've been Gto. [rob]: and I've been a Rob. That's a rap. But thank you, dear watchers for listening [guido]: The reading list is in the show note, so you can follow us on Twitter at your watchs [rob]: and leave a review wherever you listen to podcast. And if you take a screen shot of
[rob]: that review and send it to us, but'll try to get. We'll get you a sticker from our new [rob]: art [rob]: Will be back soon with another trip through the multivererse. [guido]: in the meantime, in the words of what you keep pondering the possibilities.