What If The Avengers Were Formed During The 1950s (Pre-Marvel Golden Age Atlas Heroes)

[Rob]: welcome to Dear Watchers a comic book omni verse podcast where we do a deep dive [Rob]: into the multi verse [Guido]: Traveling through the storylines before way before and after that, inspired or took [Guido]: inspiration from this week's alternate universe [Guido]: and your Watchers on this journey continue to be me. Guido. [Rob]: and me Rob the the uranium did i say that right [Guido]: Oh, we'll talk about [Rob]: but [Guido]: why that means a lot.

[Rob]: well he's bob the Uranians and i'm Robed the Uranian so i had to go with it [Guido]: That's true. that's true. but uh yeah, we. we'll get into that. my [Guido]: gosh. what an episode this is going to be, [Rob]: ooh i'm intrigued [Guido]: But

[Guido]: hello, everyone and welcome back. We really excited with the [Rob]: eight [Guido]: reception to last week's episode where we went beyond the Marvel Multi Verse, We [Guido]: returning to where we started with the Marvel Multi Verse Through What if today, but [Guido]: the response to our Amalgam episode has been really great, so please keep listening. [Rob]: okay [Guido]: Keep sharing and continue to let us know what we should cover and what ideas you [Guido]: have.

[Rob]: and of course i think this podcast geo is just an excuse for you to buy yet even [Rob]: more comic related things because then after last week's amalgam episode you [Rob]: went out and bought some wizards with dark claw on the cover and lots of other [Guido]: That is true, and believe me, I have already searched online for some of the Golden [Rob]: amalgam stuff

[Guido]: Age books that we read today and they're very expensive. but I may end up with some [Guido]: anyway, [Rob]: yes [Rob]: well we are very excited to be back in the world of what if and if you are joining [Rob]: us for the first time after a quick summary of our alternate earth we have origins [Rob]: of the story discovering what may have inspired this other reality exploring [Rob]: multiversity diving deeper into the alternate universe and pondering possibilities

[Rob]: examining the impact of this visit to the multiverse and what's followed or our [Rob]: hopes for the future and with that dear Watchers let's check out what's happening [Rob]: in the multi verse with today's alternate universe [Rob]: and today we are discussing what if the avengers had been formed in the nineteen [Rob]: fifties

[Guido]: and this is Earth Nine nine ▁zero four. Though we will get to why, that is [Guido]: questionable, and on Earth nine ▁zero nine, nine, ▁zero, four or not get to the [Guido]: Avengers At this time, we have Thor vision, Ironman Beast and Captain America are [Guido]: watching an interdmensional screen where they see the Nineteen Fifties, and they [Guido]: discover that Marvel Boy [Guido]: from the Nineteen Fifties, as well as Venus Gorilla Man, Jimmy Woo,

[Guido]: Human Robot, and 3D Men, become the Avengers to take on Yellow Claw and a bunch [Guido]: of other villains, including Skull Face, [Guido]: the Great Video, [Guido]: Electro, a different version, and Cold Warrior, and they. End up fighting and [Guido]: ▁ultimately winning, But the Avengers have to stay a secret and will get more into

[Guido]: what all of that means and how this wraps up. But that's a very quick summary of what [Guido]: happens and these, of course, are all existing pre Marvel brand Marvel characters. [Rob]: yes and they're from atlas correct not ti i know cause there's atlas and then [Rob]: there's timely those [Guido]: Correct. [Rob]: are the marvel predecessors [Guido]: Yes, so Timely becomes Atlas, There's that's pretty

[Guido]: immediate that shift. It's just a brand shift. It doesn't mean too much Different. [Guido]: Atlas was the name of the distributor that Martin Goodman had, and Timely, he just [Guido]: stopp. Drops, the Timely imprint, starts putting Atlas on the books, and this is the [Guido]: Atlas Era, which was for most of the fifties, all the Fiis. And then, as we know, [Guido]: some books are called Marvel Mystery comics, Including some we read to day, and then

[Guido]: they start putting the Marvel imprint on a few books. pres Superhero books in the [Guido]: early sixties, until they officially become Marvel Comics. Yes, though this is Atlas [Guido]: era heroes, So [Guido]: what was your background with Atlas Era heroes, or Golden Age, Marvel, or any of [Guido]: these characters?

[Rob]: very very little i of course knew that na moor and the human torch and captain [Rob]: american all predated marvel [Rob]: but i was not familiar with a most of these heroes i knew marvel boy but i thought [Rob]: he was quasar which i said to you well they look exactly the same they have similar [Rob]: powers it seems but i didn't even know i think that marvel boy was his own [Rob]: character [Rob]: and the only other character i knew is a character who is not a golden age

[Rob]: character who will talk about later three d man him i was also aware of [Rob]: a seventy second character shoe horned into some of these golden age but i didn't [Rob]: know the rest of them but i'm a big fan of the j s a over at at dc i'm a big fan of [Rob]: the squadron supreme who also seems like to have a lot in common with these kind of [Rob]: characters so this definitely fit into my wheelhouse even though i didn't know [Rob]: these particular heroes what about what about you

[Guido]: Was it your first reading? though of of nineteen fifties, Atlas era comics [Rob]: yeah i think well we [Guido]: probably be cause we read. I mean, you read the first Captain America when we covered [Guido]: that, [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: but that was timely, and that was much earlier than these. [Rob]: yes and we read na moore's first appearance as well but that was also [Guido]: Uhhuh. We also read that, but that was also timely, and also [Rob]: timely yeah

[Guido]: well before these. So yeah, [Rob]: but these would be concurrent with a lot of the j justice society of america stuff [Rob]: over at dc [Guido]: I have no idea, but I would assume. I mean, I would [Rob]: yeah similar [Guido]: assume they were publishing ▁j A in the Forties and Fifties, which is when most of [Guido]: these issues are from. [Rob]: but what struck me too is the big difference is those were already [Rob]: fairly coherent longer stories and a lot of these kind of bite size

[Guido]: I think then you're not thinking about Forties and Fifties era. ▁js. A, though cause, [Guido]: I think there there was not a long coherent story being told by any comic company in [Guido]: the Forties and Fifties.

[Rob]: yeah i guess that's [Guido]: I mean, a lot of what we read today is pre comics code, preeduction of the innocent [Rob]: oh well yeah there's there's some stuff i think we'll get into in a bit but there's [Guido]: Frederick Worththha, [Rob]: definitely more violence in these than they what you would have in marvel in the [Rob]: sixties [Guido]: Yeah, this is my biggest outing into Golden Age Marvel. For sure, I was familiar with

[Guido]: all of these characters. Well, not the human robot. That one I was not familiar [Guido]: with, but guerrilla man I was familiar with. He shows up a lot later. He probably [Rob]: yeah gosh yeah [Guido]: shows up more than any of these other characters. Obviously, I was familiar with [Guido]: Namoa. She does show up later. though she's dead for much of Uh recent publication

[Guido]: history. Obviously, I was familiar with the Yellow Claw, the very racist Yellow Claw, [Rob]: yes i hear i did no as well and i knew jimmy [Guido]: and I was familiar with ▁jimmy Woo, and I and I just looked up the ▁jimmy Woo first [Guido]: appearance in when we were watching one division, [Rob]: hm [Guido]: so I was familiar with him, And then

[Guido]: the Three D Men is a later recond one which will get into and Marvel Boy in Venus. I [Guido]: probably only knew from how they looked, and that Venus is a pretty remarkable [Guido]: nineteen forty eight female cover title that goes into Scifi and Horror At some [Guido]: point, so I always wanted to read more Venus, but Venus is not uh collected. It's not

[Guido]: in any reprint edition. A lot of the marble Golden Age stuff they've reprinted, [Guido]: obviously Captain America name, or some of the key stuff, but they really haven't [Guido]: done as comprehensive a reprint as I would like, [Rob]: hey [Guido]: and Venus is definitely in that. I would love the nineteen issues of Venus, and they

[Guido]: are very expensive to get. so yeah, [Rob]: i wonder if they do do you think they exist [Rob]: in forms that they can reprint them like does [Guido]: yes, [Rob]: does marvel have the they have the original it's not like a mood ' so often we know [Rob]: that happens with movies where the movie just can get lost [Guido]: no, and there are lost comics. Of course, but these. these are not lost comics.

[Guido]: without a doubt, So and they, you know. they, A lot of what you read today is [Guido]: actually reprinted in a collection, which I'll get into that collection for for our [Guido]: listeners who want to go learn more. It's a great source and that has Venus number [Guido]: one in it. But the other issues of Venus are not collected anywhere but anyway. So [Guido]: that's my familiarity with these Golden Age folks and I'm really excited to dive [Guido]: deeper into them.

[Rob]: yes so we will be our tour guides today and we are gonna grab our atlas if you will [Guido]: That one worked. All right. [Rob]: to explore this week's origins of the story [Rob]: okay strap yourself in because we've got [Guido]: We have a lot of credits.

[Rob]: a lot of issues that we're going to rattle off here and then we'll dive in a little [Rob]: deeper into these characters but we're gonna start off with marvel mystery comics [Rob]: number eighty two from may nineteen forty seven the coming of nemo [Guido]: and so with most of these issues Sadly, the writers aren't known. This is one of [Guido]: those. So the Arts by Kenbald Andsid Shores, Its inked by George Klyin and edited by [Guido]: Stanley.

[Rob]: next up is venus number one from august nineteen forty eight venus comes to earth [Guido]: This is art by George Klyin and ▁lynn Streeter, possibly written by Stanley, who also [Guido]: edited it. [Rob]: i'm sure stan would have taken the credit [Rob]: next up is marvel boy number one from december nineteen fifty marvel boy and the [Rob]: lost world [Guido]: This is art by Russ Heeath, edited by Stan.

[Rob]: then the fabulously innate titled men's adventures number twenty six from march [Rob]: nineteen fifty four gorilla man [Guido]: This is art by Robert ▁q. Sail and edited by Stan. [Rob]: then we have menace from mens number eleven from may nineteen fifty four i the [Rob]: robots

[Guido]: This is John Rumeda's senior art Rob writer. again. Stan edited it, [Rob]: yellow claw number one from october nineteen fifty six the coming of the yellow [Rob]: claw [Guido]: So this is written by Alfeldtein, pencilled and inked by Jominily, cored by Stan [Guido]: Goldberg, edited by Stanley. [Rob]: and we're gonna jump to the swinging seventies with marvel premiere number thirty [Rob]: five from april nineteen seventy seven the three d man

[Guido]: This is written by Roy Thomas, penciiled by ▁jim Craig. It is inked by Da Ve Hunt,

[Guido]: coled by Georruso's lettered by John Casanza and edited by Roy. So the reason we read [Guido]: all of these, it's the first appearance of each of these individuals, So in order we [Guido]: have the first name or the first Venus, the First Marvel Boy, First Girl Man, First [Guido]: Human Robot, First, ▁jimmy, Woo, and Yellow Claw, and the first three D Man, which is [Guido]: written in seventy seven, though it's written as if it took place in the fifties, So

[Guido]: we read these as the first appearance of the characters that mean a lot in the what?

[Guido]: If so, let's go through these in chronologtic order. So Namoa, what do you think [Rob]: love the art and this is very striking very interesting arts [Rob]: and the story of course is is pretty simple but like you said this came out before [Rob]: the comics code and he's really violent so in the story these gangsters have [Rob]: machine guns that can operate under water and they go in and basically kill all of [Guido]: I know?

[Rob]: atlantis except for namora and namo who's not there at the time because they [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: wanna steal pearls that are there [Guido]: I know I love all the stuff with the pearls, [Rob]: and it's it's pretty crazy i was not expecting them to just murder everybody

[Guido]: No, and noy, or even comments on like the death that surrounds him. So even though [Guido]: it's not gory in any way, it definitely I agree, does not leave any question as to [Guido]: the fact that these are murderers. [Guido]: So [Rob]: yes [Guido]: it's fine na mora, you know, doesn't have a too well defined personality [Rob]: no

[Guido]: Here she does. She ends up being Naymore's cousin, though in this golden age era they [Guido]: sort of play with the possibility of romance, but [Rob]: yes [Guido]: they, they never cement that romance, which, so it's not a a lukein laa kind of [Guido]: situation [Guido]: where they then could safely recon and make them cousins, And that's how they [Guido]: continued and the art. I have to say, one thing, the eyebrows on both Namore and

[Guido]: Namora are amazing. They [Rob]: yes well they [Guido]: are drag inspiration. [Rob]: yes super thin joan crawford eyebrows [Guido]: Yeah, high arch, Yeah, it's pretty [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: amazing. Even Namore has. Like you know, these, these long eyelashes and [Rob]: is it [Guido]: there's something very. He's drawn like a pretty flat top from Dick Tracy.

[Rob]: yes yes totally ah yeah i can definitely see that and her outfit too very space a [Rob]: even though she's under water it's definitely got that buck rogers kind of thing [Rob]: she's wearing this fabulous headpiece there [Guido]: Yeah, with the cock sheell, like a antenna on on her headdress. Yeah, I like that a [Guido]: lot.

[Rob]: and i my favorite thing too is just how it ends where they wind up going to namo [Rob]: news reporter friend betty dean and nemo is just gonna become a roommate share [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: her apartment [Guido]: Yeah, I agree. it's fun start and then she shows up in more Golden age stuff [Guido]: and on to Venus. So [Rob]: yes [Guido]: Venus is the next year, Nineteen forty eight again. It's so cool to me, and I can't

[Guido]: remember what comic book history book I was reading in the last few months. that [Guido]: cited how remarkable Venus was for Marvel. At least in terms of being a titular [Guido]: female character. She's a hero. She is the lead. The book starts off with her getting [Guido]: this job at the beauty magazine and fixing people's relationships, but like I said, [Guido]: it apparently then starts to incorporate Scifi and horror stuff, so it's fun. I had a

[Guido]: lot of fun reading this. As I said, I want to read more. I think her design is [Guido]: awesome. I love [Rob]: yes [Guido]: the outfit and the white hair. [Rob]: yes her her outfit even has this you could even call it shocking blue color they [Guido]: Yeah. [Rob]: did the song venus [Guido]: Oh, I don't know what that means. [Rob]: the song venus that then ban banana rama did

[Guido]: I know the Bananarama Venus. I thought it was by Frankie Avalon or something, [Rob]: well there was a song by now a song by shocking blue earlier [Guido]: originally [Guido]: back to Venus, [Rob]: no [Guido]: the hero, who's also Afrodite and also a god and also an alien. So it's sort of a [Rob]: yes and also an alien mm hm w which which comes up later [Guido]: proto Thor

[Guido]: situation, which comes up in the What if? Yeah, [Rob]: yes the art is really striking it's so interesting that i guess it just shows you [Rob]: people maybe before there was a true house style because the art in this compared [Rob]: to the art in name mora is so totally different this has i don't know how how would [Rob]: you describe it but it this has a much more [Rob]: less comic bookie [Rob]: style to it to me yes it's very pulp yeah [Guido]: it's very pulp.

[Guido]: It's very sci fi pulp and I'm sure that is what the the goal here was. [Rob]: yes i absolutely love the very very first panel where she's sitting on a cloud [Rob]: leaning back and then the [Guido]: Yeah, it's like a good girl pin up. kind of. Yeah.

[Rob]: yeah and then the male character is just like floating on a planet and he's just [Rob]: saying she's out of this world i could see that being appropriated day in like a [Rob]: hipster context because it just is so striking and the fonts they use for venus as [Rob]: well with this yellow and red very cool [Guido]: Yeah, I, I liked this book a lot and it's fun that she has these sort of superps to

[Guido]: to make people feel love, but that she's going to live well in this. She doesn't have [Guido]: her powers any morere on [Rob]: she has [Guido]: earth, but I think she gets them over the course of her solo title, and then, of [Guido]: course, when we meet her again she has them, but [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: you know she can't walk through the wall, which is a very funny moment where [Rob]: it is a very funny moment yeah

[Guido]: she's trying to prove she's a god to this guy and she hits the Wa, [Rob]: yeah that guy would definitely be canceled today whitney he [Rob]: definitely just kind of a jerk shoving her around [Rob]: and i also love that the other woman in it the secretary is gonna become her [Rob]: rival her nemesis [Guido]: her nemesis. [Guido]: Yeah, no, yeah, it's a lot of good, Setus, and it's fun. [Guido]: so moving on to, [Guido]: I [Rob]: wolf

[Guido]: guess my favorite, it's hard to decide between Venus and Marvel boy. Yeah, [Rob]: oh your favorites oh my gosh i i i i was thinking it's it's so funny how night and [Rob]: day these are because venus is there's not too much text in it you know it's very [Rob]: shar it's actually sharp and funny where there's some jokes and then we get to just [Rob]: pages and pages of nonstop [Guido]: there is so much text in this and we [Rob]: yes so much text

[Guido]: don't know who wrote it, but someone wrote a lot of text. [Rob]: it's not even dialogue it's just p pages of explanations and i i'm just looking at [Rob]: this one page here i'll just hold up obviously no one else can see a [Guido]: It is. it is intense, but I think so [Guido]: I. I like how cookookie his design is. I love. As you know, I love Quazar, which is [Guido]: sort of built on Marvel Boy.

[Guido]: There's something though that I. This is what I can't get over, and I, I, I don't [Guido]: think I overly ▁queer code things that that don't have that in it, But an Ironian [Rob]: yeah tell me what is it [Guido]: is a word from the eighteen sixties onward, meaning someone gay.

[Rob]: oh [Guido]: So I find it hard to believe that this man in this really flamboy outfit with a [Guido]: headband that everyone comments how pretty he is [Guido]: is an Uranian, and that when we get to To Eronus, like the men who approach the ship, [Guido]: that his father are all wearing dresses. [Rob]: yes they are yes [Guido]: so I find it hard to believe that there's not someone. And Now I asked you before we [Guido]: recorded if you knew what an Ionnian was, [Rob]: no yeah

[Guido]: and you did not, And so maybe it's so obscure a word. it's It's a sexology word. It's [Guido]: a word that was used to in like scientific literature, predating, even I believe the [Guido]: word homosexual. And [Guido]: so I, you know, I was a. I studied gener studies like I, I guess I more likely to [Guido]: know that word than most people. but I really wish I knew who wrote this. Maybe Russ [Guido]: Heath, I mean, Russ Heeath has an the artist who maybe wrote it. Maybe didn't. It's

[Guido]: not clear who wrote it. he is. He's hard to find a lot of background information [Guido]: about. I, I don't know. I tried to find if there was someone who might be gay related [Guido]: to Marvel Boy. He only had two issues, and then they changed the title to Astonishing [Guido]: Tales and keep telling a few Marvel Boy stories. But then he thought [Rob]: h

[Guido]: of goes away for a while as all of these characters do. But I think I was so drawn in [Guido]: by the fact that he's an Ironnian, that it just in my head I was like this has to be [Guido]: gay. coed. [Rob]: well he's very hunky he's super hunky with [Rob]: blonde hair and he's he's huge gig you know very tall and built and of course his [Rob]: most his biggest power aside from his telepathy comes from jewelry too [Rob]: so there is that

[Guido]: That's true. It's true he has his light beams [Guido]: That's true. It's true he has his light beams [Rob]: yes yes [Guido]: and he wants to bring peace everywhere And they, you know his father, who who went to [Guido]: ▁uranus. Like talks about how it's everyone is peaceful. Everyone is superintelligent [Guido]: and I, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: I, I'm just like. Oh, that sounds like a a gay utopia. To me.

[Rob]: yeah that's true [Rob]: and do you think there's something to the fact that they that his last name and his [Rob]: father's last name is grayson since there was already a super famous [Rob]: como character with that last name [Guido]: I have no idea it could have been a common name at the time. I, I don't. I don't see [Guido]: it as a as a reference, but I have no idea. I don't see any connections to Dick [Guido]: Grayson that they would be making here, so [Rob]: no that's true yeah

[Guido]: I. I doubt it, so I enjoyed this. It is so dense, but I obviously I like his his [Guido]: peace keeping thing. I love that he's fighting this character who's taking over a [Guido]: continent [Rob]: yes [Guido]: that raised itself out of the ocean. So [Rob]: well that that's [Guido]: it's such a weird story, too.

[Rob]: one of the biggest things with this issue is not only is it telling the origin of [Rob]: marvel boy but there's this lost continent and it's kind of atlantis because [Rob]: they're all fish people but they [Guido]: Mhm.

[Rob]: never call it atlantis so there's just a lot you would think that alone would be [Rob]: enough for a comic the fact that there's a continent coming up but it's also in [Rob]: this guy's origin issue which is also just it's so weird there's so much happening [Guido]: Yeah, and again with the precode stuff They, [Guido]: they start slaughtering these fish, people, [Rob]: oh my gosh [Guido]: Uh, these [Rob]: yes

[Guido]: pirates or or whoever they are that are coming in, start slaughtering them. So it's [Guido]: yeah. I I liked it. I like the art. Also, I think the it has. It's that pulp quality

[Guido]: again. The sci fi pulp quality, but it's a little more like Line heavy, and there's a [Guido]: lot of shading in it, which I like, and then I do think they communicate well, Marvel [Guido]: Boys prettiness, But and then if you look up against the pirate who has like this [Guido]: beard and this mustusache, and all this chest hair like [Rob]: a monic of course because every villain had a mole in these issues

[Guido]: a Monica, and an a weird symbol on his on his little black, like Biker's cap, and I [Guido]: just think [Rob]: he [Guido]: you know for an artist in the fifties to be drawing such differentiated faces, it was [Guido]: not always the case I. Think people often drew [Rob]: yes

[Guido]: one face. This one is not that case. So I liked Russ Ethart, [Rob]: the villain is bas bosnian [Guido]: Oh, was that where they [Rob]: yes he was from bosnia but bosnia no longer existed i guess at this time [Guido]: said he was fromm? So he was going to claim this continent, and [Rob]: and he was denied citizenship by everywhere else so he's gonna claim this yeah and [Guido]: even like at the end like he's He's still yelling that like this continent is his as

[Guido]: he's drowning to death. Like it. it's [Rob]: yes it's [Guido]: dark [Rob]: y [Guido]: and dramatic and I, I. I liked it. Yes, it's over written, but I like it. [Guido]: You might have liked it more if we weren't reading it in the center of our biggest [Guido]: readed ever, which I think was for this episode potentially our biggest read ever. So [Guido]: Let's move on to the much shorter story Guerrilla Man, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: introducing us to Guerrilla Man as a weird men's adventure.

[Rob]: hm [Guido]: The art and this is really great, too. This is [Rob]: the art [Guido]: much more in the E C style. I'd say [Rob]: very easy very [Guido]: yeah, [Rob]: easy but also just looking at this first page the font which is in fur which i love [Guido]: Yeah, very cool. [Rob]: and this first image of one grilla man beating up another gorilla man doesn't it [Rob]: read to you as very underground comics

[Guido]: Yeah, and I think that's yeah. I think E C sometimes looks underground to me, but [Guido]: yeah, it could. especially. I think with all the there is a lot of line work like [Guido]: the, even the fur on the gurillas, not just on the font

[Guido]: and then the shading that's on the people's faces. Yeah, [Rob]: and and this is just this is it's so interesting because everything else we read up [Rob]: to this point was superhero i mean you could say venus was superhero adjacent maybe [Rob]: but here this is just definitely [Rob]: not really a superhero story this is definitely very much ec kind of story [Rob]: because he's got the he's having these visions the [Guido]: Mhm.

[Rob]: sky is having these visions of a gorilla man he goes out to africa he finds a [Rob]: gorilla man kills the gorilla man and then he becomes a gorilla man [Guido]: yeah, yeah, and I don't know if they. I don't know if this story. I. I know it [Guido]: continues, but I don't know if it then explains the origin, or if that doesn't happen [Guido]: until more modern comics. But yeah, I think it's It is a fun

[Guido]: it. It also does that e c thing where it's narrating to [Rob]: yes [Guido]: you the protagonist [Guido]: And so you know at the end for it to say, Do you still want an answer to all this, [Guido]: Then, look at your hands at your arms at your body. There's your answer. You are the [Guido]: gurilla man, so I [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: like that way of it being constructed and that makes it feel. also.

[Rob]: definitely goes back to po and lovecraft too where you've got that narrator talking [Rob]: about their journey and then that was so much stuff that tails from the crypt [Rob]: picked up on as well [Guido]: Yeah, so it's [Rob]: yeah i love i love the i love the panel where he just shoots the snake

[Guido]: I know. Hope [Rob]: there's a snake trying to kill him and he just again so pre code because he just [Rob]: shoots that snake right in his head [Guido]: well, I don't know if the code cared about killing a snake, but maybe they did. [Rob]: i think they would yeah i mean not with a gun

[Guido]: I think they're more concerned about uh, gay people and women. So, Um, and I have to [Guido]: say, too, I think [Guido]: I, other than the The Africa as a place, which [Rob]: hm [Guido]: in of itself is racist, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: this girl, a man's story doesn't invoke any racist caricatures And I was surprised [Guido]: because I was [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: expecting that with a story called Guerrilla Man, rightin in the fifties, where he

[Guido]: goes to ▁quote unquote Africa, But it it doesn't at all, and there's nothing ▁ coed [Guido]: about race in it, so I [Rob]: no although the [Guido]: was glad to experience that. [Rob]: the black people he does meet their has a bone in their hair and are basically [Guido]: Oh, I miss that. Okay, so never mind. [Rob]: colored completely blue and they're not even colored i mean they're they're

[Guido]: Okay, Okay, so I take it back. I'm wrong, [Rob]: basically not colored okay you take that yes [Guido]: I'm rugged, all right, so moving on we have the human robot. This is another mini [Guido]: story in a larger anthology called [Rob]: hm [Guido]: Menace. It's a tale of maddening menace. I loved this story. [Rob]: oh yeah me too

[Guido]: This was. This is pureies, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: because you know for anyone who's not familiar, Like the twist of it is that this, [Guido]: because you know for anyone who's not familiar, Like the twist of it is that this, [Guido]: the human robot will respond to the order that he's given. And and some one comes to

[Guido]: the human robot will respond to the order that he's given. And and some one comes to [Guido]: steal, like the a part of him, and blah blah blah, and then gives him an order [Guido]: steal, like the a part of him, and blah blah blah, and then gives him an order [Guido]: telling him to kill the man in the room. so he kills his creator. And then the guy

[Guido]: telling him to kill the man in the room. so he kills his creator. And then the guy [Guido]: whos gave him that order comes into the room, and then the robot kills him because he [Guido]: whos gave him that order comes into the room, and then the robot kills him because he [Guido]: saying, kill the man in the room. Kill the man in the room, And I love the final [Guido]: saying, kill the man in the room. Kill the man in the room, And I love the final

[Guido]: caption. It made me laugh out loud when we were reading it, because it says you know [Guido]: caption. It made me laugh out loud when we were reading it, because it says you know [Guido]: it's talking again to the protagonist. The robot and says, your steel feet make [Guido]: it's talking again to the protagonist. The robot and says, your steel feet make [Guido]: hollow clanking sounds at echo. raspingling in the narrow quarter. You're on your

[Guido]: hollow clanking sounds at echo. raspingling in the narrow quarter. You're on your [Guido]: way. You will kill men in rooms wherever you find them. You are a robot you must [Guido]: way. You will kill men in rooms wherever you find them. You are a robot you must [Guido]: obey. So I just love how threatening like any man in a room is at risk right now with [Guido]: obey. So I just love how threatening like any man in a room is at risk right now with

[Guido]: the robot's orders, So that's a fun easy twilight. ▁zone Ek ending. [Guido]: the robot's orders, So that's a fun easy twilight. ▁zone Ek ending.

[Rob]: yeah and and didn't you you get that i guess it's supposed to be his eyes and it's [Rob]: very similar robot design to the robot in [Rob]: the day the earth stood still but [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: it also in some of the panels almost looks like a joker e smile or like the batman [Rob]: who laughs that conrad vi smile too cause you could see it as his eyes so you could [Rob]: see that almost as him laughing [Guido]: as like a forced teeth

[Guido]: exposing smile. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't see that, but I can see it now. it's [Rob]: mhm yes [Guido]: interesting. [Guido]: It definitely could fit.

[Rob]: and i would have never in a million years i think this goes with gorilla man too [Rob]: but especially with this character i would have never seen that this character [Rob]: would have ever come back [Rob]: into some kind of ongoing story because it's so much just this one shot of this [Rob]: really cool twist at the end and basically the whole thing seems like it's set up [Rob]: for this twist so yeah

[Guido]: Yeah, he even gets a whole reconed origin. Something else happens that night with his [Guido]: creator that we don't find out until decades later. [Rob]: oh interesting [Guido]: Ah, so, but let's move on to [Rob]: speaking of racism

[Guido]: speaking of racism exactly to Yellow Claw number one. And this is you'll notice. it [Guido]: does have the Comics Code Authority seal on it and [Rob]: ah yes [Guido]: it is the first of the books we read So you can tell the comics Coat didn't care so [Guido]: much about racism. They cared about a lot.

[Rob]: yeah that's true yes you mean cause the cause the the tag line of of yellow claw is [Rob]: who or what is he [Rob]: just to [Guido]: And [Rob]: ne you know drive it home [Guido]: now often you know people do site, obviously ▁jimmy Woo as [Rob]: listen [Guido]: being a really progressive [Rob]: yes [Guido]: depiction representation because there is nothing caricaturish about him other than [Guido]: the yellow coloring, which is a problem throughout this whole issue, but otherwise he

[Guido]: is a very capable serious hero who works for. In this. The He's a special agent. [Guido]: Uh, do they name he? Yeah, he's a special f B I agent. This [Rob]: is

[Guido]: is preshield. Obviously, so it's cool to see the introduction of ▁jimmy Woo, and to [Guido]: know that it's a character that then gets resurrected in the modern age, [Guido]: The Yellow Claw and his niece, and all that shows up in the whatff, But I couldn't [Guido]: care less to to [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: explore it any further.

[Rob]: and we talked a lot about fu man chu when we did our shang shi episode and clearly [Guido]: Mhm, [Rob]: it is them ripping that off [Rob]: down to the fact that fu manchu has his daughter and here there's a [Rob]: a niece or

[Guido]: the niece, Yeah, yeah, I wonder why. I guess. I guess in nineteen fifty six, maybe [Guido]: there were F Manu comics coming out, or maybe they didn't get the license, which they [Guido]: then obviously did twenty years later when they started doing chunky comics, So [Rob]: well and there was a series of christopher lee movies around this time too so there [Rob]: might have been some popularity with that character [Guido]: in fifty six

[Rob]: yeah i don't know the exact year but it would have been around that time karloff [Rob]: played him first of course all these were [Guido]: right, [Rob]: people you know not who were not actually of asian descent but actually carlo at [Rob]: least was part india indian so at least there was a little bit of a connection [Rob]: there but [Rob]: yeah no i think it was it was definitely around that time it's interesting too that

[Rob]: they called the comic yellow claw not jimmy mou since he is the hero it's pretty [Rob]: uncommon to have a comic named after the villain [Guido]: Well, I, I guess If you, what you're saying is why they created this to get on to any [Guido]: sort of

[Guido]: movie craze, then they, that was what they were trying to sell. Not ▁jimmy [Rob]: yes and and speaking of characters based on crazes [Guido]: our last introduction to a not golden age, but ret cond Golden Age character here, [Guido]: The three D men. [Rob]: yes this was the one character of these that i was familiar with probably just from [Guido]: Well, that'scause I've bought these issues. when, when we, [Guido]: when we've been out years ago, I

[Guido]: saw these issues. the Marvel premiers with him and bought them And so that might be [Guido]: why you're familiar with them. Because he. really. [Rob]: i also think [Rob]: he gets a bit of a bigger [Guido]: it does show up in the late nineties reboot of Avengers, so that might be why. too.

[Rob]: well i was gonna say he gets a big of a bigger write up i think in the marvel [Rob]: handbook as well maybe [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: because that was coming out a little closer to his debut so i remember him from [Guido]: well, they change who he is, So it's not the person we meet in. whatever his name is, [Rob]: that [Guido]: Chad, [Guido]: C. C. his name is. I don't even remember [Rob]: well it's very confusing which we i wanna talk a little bit about because [Guido]: his powers.

[Rob]: yeah well so first off they just keep saying that he has the strength the combined [Rob]: strength and other things of three met which is kind of funny [Guido]: Well, he has everything of three men. Yeah, he has the resilience of three men, the [Guido]: endurance of three men, the speed of three men. Like it. It's an absurd nonsensical

[Guido]: power set. but yeah go [Rob]: yeah because also it does it makes it sound like well that doesn't sound very [Rob]: impressive [Guido]: well, I guess [Guido]: it's not it's. It's like it's being multiplied right. Like so it's not that he has [Guido]: the speed of three men, It's that he [Rob]: sure yes yes i got that yes yes but

[Guido]: has three times the speed of a man. So, I guess if you think about your strength and [Guido]: multiply it by three that you know [Rob]: but here's [Guido]: would be quite strong, [Rob]: here's the other weird here's the other thing that doesn't quite work is so his [Rob]: name's three d man he's got the strength and speed of three people but his costume [Rob]: which of course is based on the three d glasses of the of this era his costume is

[Rob]: the two colors he and he's basically two people combined together there's a it's a [Rob]: little fire storm esque right where he's like [Guido]: I guess I can't quite understand that, Because so yeah, he has this brother who he [Guido]: sort of merges with, but he lives in his brother's glasses.

[Rob]: yeah he lives in his brother's glasses i i thought the whole time this was going to [Rob]: be that the narration was gonna be tricking us and it was the brother the brother [Rob]: is [Rob]: disabled so i thought it was gonna be oh the brother is actually three d man not [Rob]: the the [Rob]: disabled brothers three d men not the jock but and then he kind of is but also then [Guido]: Well, he is kind of

[Rob]: would it almost feels like there should be three people like there should have been [Rob]: someone else involved that stick with the three angle [Guido]: well. that's it's weird. I, and first of all, they add the absurd thing that he only [Guido]: can stay this way for three hours. Um, [Rob]: yes which you know you and i were just talking about that because we wa just [Rob]: watched dark man where he [Guido]: yes, that's true.

[Rob]: can only have his mask for ninety nine minutes of course our man can only be our [Rob]: men for an hour even so yes [Guido]: but but anyway, so at the, I guess as the three hours are ending, he splits into a [Guido]: red and green man and [Rob]: yes [Guido]: then the red and green man go into the glasses of his brother like I, so I don't [Guido]: understand. I guess he's been split into two people and then he joins with his

[Guido]: brother. It's so ridiculous. I. I. that's it. I have nothing [Rob]: yeah and [Guido]: else to say, except it's ridiculous. [Rob]: well and one last question before we move on to our what if why do you know Guido [Rob]: why was he written in the fifties rather than being in the seventies [Guido]: I have no idea. Wroy did that. Not a clue. it was. It was a choice. I mean it, and [Guido]: some of it could have come from. I don't know. He might have wanted to add to Golden

[Guido]: Age heroes. build up that roster a little. He also [Guido]: then can create a time line where the scrolls have existed. Even at the end, hints [Guido]: that potentially Hitler was a scroll, [Rob]: yes hitler was a scroll [Guido]: because now the squirorels had been around since the fifties or the. Although, That [Guido]: doesn't then make sense, But it says who can say which of humanity Scrges was truly

[Guido]: human, and which was a scralllcause. The scrollls have been on earth, so [Rob]: well the first the first drawing there though was napoleon so maybe the s scrolls [Guido]: yeah, I guess he's just sort of saying well, if the Scrollls were there in the [Rob]: were actually that far back [Guido]: fifties, they could have been there in the thirties, and they could have been there

[Guido]: in the seventeen hundreds, and all this stuff. So it's it is very strange. Three de [Guido]: mend only lasted for three issues of Marvel Premiere and then was brought over in [Guido]: different ways as different characters into more mainstream titles. But [Guido]: yeah, it was a strange thing there, but those that was our team members. That's our [Guido]: goal, Golden Age set of a team. [Guido]: and that's it. I think those are all our origins issues. So [Rob]: that's yes

[Guido]: fun. fun to read some weird stuff, but fun to read. [Rob]: yes [Rob]: and and now even perhaps weirder is that they all come together and form a team [Guido]: Well, [Rob]: which [Guido]: let's talk about that.

[Rob]: yes let us explore the multiversity [Rob]: things [Rob]: and today we are going back to the world of what if what if volume one issue number [Rob]: nine from june nineteen seventy eight and the question is what if the avengers had [Rob]: been formed during the one thousand nine hundred fifty seconds with a slightly [Rob]: different cover question [Rob]: of what if the avengers had fought evil during the one thousand nine hundred fifty

[Rob]: seconds neither of those questions really summarize what this issue is really about [Rob]: but [Guido]: Well now, I think, if it for, I think if they formed it does, but we'll get there. So [Rob]: yes [Guido]: it's written by Roy Thomas and Don Glutt, pencill by Alan Cupperberg, inked by Bill [Guido]: Black, coolored, by Call Gafferd, letter by Thomaszksky edited by Roy It, his Earth

[Guido]: Nine nine, ▁zero four. I'll get to that in just a second, a little bit on the [Guido]: background, so Roy came up with the question, but then didn't actually write it and [Guido]: he later said, I wish I'd written the Nineteen Fifties Avenger story myself. I really [Guido]: wanted to, not to fault Don's story, which was along lines of what I wanted. Allan [Rob]: very [Guido]: worked really hard on the penciling. Though his art wasn't as developed as I would

[Guido]: have liked. I think that my input was a general plot line or concept, and at most a [Guido]: couple of sentences. Even with the nineteen Fifties Avengers, I had a general idea [Guido]: that Three De Man, Venus and Marvel Boy would be in the book. Gri Man, Human Robot [Guido]: were Donwn's edions, which I think worked very well, And Don then says that Yes, Roy

[Guido]: would come up with an idea and then let him run with it. The only rule was that he [Guido]: could not use Captain Americas Submariner or the original Human Torch,

[Guido]: and this was one of his favorite stories or his favorite What if story. He said. He [Guido]: grew up in the fifties, which was not that long [Rob]: it just [Guido]: ago when writing this in the seventies, and he had so many fond memories of that era [Guido]: and could insert a lot of injokes and references to the Fifties in this story.

[Guido]: So, let me talk about the Earth designation [Guido]: and some of this is going to come up in our future issue that, in our pondering the [Guido]: possibilities segment, but you'll notice in the framing device that while Uatu is [Guido]: present, [Guido]: Walter doesn't have a lot to do here, because in fact the Avengers are the framing [Guido]: device, so the question is raised in the text [Guido]: whether or not this is the six one six that they're watching in the nineteen fifties,

[Guido]: or whether or not it's an alternate timeline [Rob]: yes [Guido]: and it's not even answered in the text, so that's why. The Earth nine nine o Four [Guido]: designation is controversial. [Rob]: na yes [Guido]: Now it's It's potentially settled and then potentially disturbed by the two things [Guido]: that we read next. but to say focused on the What if we even have U. ▁ought to [Guido]: staying at the end. Still you may ask. Did this adventure just witnessed occur in

[Guido]: your reality or in some other parallel cosmos? Did those avengers of a bygone day [Guido]: ever return to fight once more together? Perhaps I shall provide the answer in time, [Guido]: and [Rob]: is [Guido]: perhaps not, for it is my task only to observe.

[Rob]: yeah [Guido]: So there is a question that was left on the table for at least twenty years [Guido]: as to whether or not they were seeing a ret con story for the six one six They were [Guido]: seeing that the Avengers formed in the fifties with this team at the end We see the

[Guido]: pres say to them. You know what? I want This to be a secret. These are suspicious [Guido]: times people are are very suspicious of communists, and I love that he says a few [Guido]: simplistic souls even feel that comic books, and anything resembling Hanbook [Rob]: yes [Guido]: characters are responsible for every social [Rob]: love that line yeah [Guido]: ill. And so he tells them that he has to cover up the fact that they existed, so it

[Guido]: actually would have worked as a recon. Now having read it for the first time. Like, [Guido]: what did you think? Did you feel like it was a recon of the Six? One Six? Did you [Guido]: feel like it was an alternate earth? What did you think? [Rob]: i i think i thought it was a recon of the six one six because everything else [Rob]: eisenhower's the president he's the president you're talking about there [Guido]: Mhm? [Rob]: so everything else [Guido]: But is king?

[Rob]: seems to exist out well [Guido]: They make sure [Rob]: de [Guido]: to say Elvis is king and that everyone loves Lucy?

[Rob]: yes yes exactly so there there are so again there's references to people in our [Rob]: earth yellow claw was a whose the villain here was also a villain in the six [Rob]: hundred one six and in nick fury agents of shield which i love so it seems like [Rob]: there's so much stuff from the six hundred one six i just figured it really was [Rob]: this timeline we had just never really heard of [Guido]: Yeah, well, we'll get. We'll get to the answer of that question or a potential answer

[Guido]: later. And then what do you think of just the issue overall, [Rob]: i really enjoy the issue i actually think they really work well as a team each one [Rob]: of them has [Rob]: their personality that fits in really well three d man is the wise cracking one and [Rob]: gorilla man is very much the ben grim of the group kind of a sour push but with [Rob]: also some good lines there [Rob]: then you have the robot which actually has some really funny jokes because he

[Rob]: doesn't really understand a lot of stuff gets lost in translation for him [Guido]: Mhm, and that's where a lot of the time references Donngle. it talks about like the [Guido]: pop [Rob]: yes [Guido]: culture references come in for sure.

[Rob]: then yeah you have venus which there's some fun stuff with her love powers which [Rob]: actually get explored here and one marvel boy is just kind of the general he leader [Rob]: leader type with little less personality but i think i think it works really well [Rob]: as a unit [Guido]: Yeah, it is. And so you asked me before we record it like, Had this group been a team [Guido]: and no, this is the first time they're a team. So whether it's

[Guido]: Roy's idea or don's writing, or just the nature of them, I agree. I think they work [Guido]: well as a team. I think they do what you like so much about the ▁j. s. a, which is [Guido]: that they [Guido]: such a random hodgepodge of people of weird people and flambmboyant people, and [Rob]: yes [Guido]: that works really well for a fun team. I mean that's what makes the Thunderbolts work

[Guido]: really well. It makes a few teams work really well. That are not the Adventurs, even [Guido]: though they call [Rob]: y [Guido]: themselves the Avengers here. so I think that is cool that Th these people had never [Guido]: been on a team. and just by virtue of all being Fifties characters, with the [Guido]: exception of that three de mans shoe horn in [Guido]: they, he decided to throw them together, and it works.

[Rob]: yeah it's funny because you you and i were talking actually a little bit right [Rob]: before we started recording that the vendors that are [Rob]: the vendors we know who are you know book handing this [Rob]: are the aren't super fun you've got thor [Guido]: No, [Rob]: ironman captain america the vision and beast beast is the only one really with any [Rob]: kind of personality in these pages so actually when you contrast them where they're

[Rob]: all kind of super serious with these characters i would actually prefer the [Rob]: nineteen fifties avengers [Guido]: even at the end when they each likened themselves to one of [Rob]: yes [Guido]: these nineteen fifties aveenders, they choose the most boring characteristic. like [Guido]: Captain America says that he's mu like three de men because it's so much like the

[Guido]: Super Soldier Serra made him stronger and faster. And then Iron Man chooses Marvel [Guido]: Boy because they both have repulsor rays. [Guido]: Now Beast makes a joke here, he says he chose Guerrilla Man, even though he likes his [Guido]: own haircut better than Goerrilla. Man's vision chooses human robot because he's a [Guido]: noble creature, And yet Ananroid and I love that Thor chooses Venus because they're

[Guido]: both like, have these immortal powers and are from a pantheon of gods. So but those. [Guido]: they're also boring. I'm like, give gim mee, the nineteen Fifties ones backcause. [Rob]: yes [Guido]: You guys are not very interested. [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: I agree with that and then the villains. [Rob]: oh my gosh

[Guido]: the assemble, I am. I'm actually a little upset with myself that I didn't have us [Guido]: read each of these villain's first appearance [Rob]: oh my gosh [Guido]: because they are. [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: They are acastic characters again. We have.

[Rob]: yeah we should say who they are [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: because they they are not they're not characters that anyone will be familiar with [Rob]: i think [Guido]: no, so we have skull faceac, whose, a skeleton of a demon burned at the stake [Rob]: of an alleged demon [Guido]: and restored [Rob]: sorry he's an alleged demon [Guido]: in this century by fifty million volts of electricity. And so [Rob]: mmm hmm

[Guido]: that apparently happens in Mystic number six. So these are still some Golden age [Rob]: mm hm and he looks just like marvel marvel death [Guido]: Marvel books. [Rob]: he's wearing the purple purple cloak yeah

[Guido]: Yeah, he looks just like death. Yeah, [Guido]: and so then Electro, the Russian assassin has, it looks like a, I don't know a sort [Guido]: of Frankenstein creature, but wearing like a feez hat, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: and with [Rob]: with [Guido]: a a hammer and sickle [Rob]: mm [Guido]: etched on his chest, and he, I guess just has electricity, and he debuts in an early [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: Captain America.

[Rob]: yeah at least the spiderman electro you know his costume reads as electricity i [Rob]: don't know why this guy's powers are electricity and yet he [Guido]: No, he's like a ▁zombie creature. [Rob]: he's like a green lizard man with a fez yeah [Guido]: Yeah, and then we have the Cold Warrior who's like a Ice man, mixed with like ▁zoom [Guido]: from the Flash because he has like a more [Rob]: yes [Guido]: of a slick sort [Rob]: um

[Guido]: of helmet on. And he just is Ice Man, though his name is the Gold Warrior [Rob]: well speak yeah [Guido]: and his debut is in Marvel Premier, So he debuts with the Three D man.

[Rob]: yeah he's the most [Rob]: he's the one that you could see in something else because it's so okay his his [Rob]: powers are ice his costume is pretty standard i could see that what makes him [Rob]: really weird is he's called the cold warrior because he hates commies [Guido]: But he's been like tricked by by Yellow Claws potion [Rob]: yes [Guido]: or whatever, or by the German assistant at Yellowlaw Has he's been tricked into [Guido]: joining this team, But I [Rob]: um

[Guido]: saved the best for last, [Rob]: yes of course [Guido]: of course, because this was obviously going to be your favorite. So who's that [Rob]: that is the great video [Guido]: the Great video, [Rob]: a laboratory explosion gave him x ray vision but also the power to kill with his [Rob]: prolonged stare [Guido]: And so he debuts in Marvel Boy. He's actually in a story from Marvel Boy number One

[Guido]: that we didn't read. We only read one of the stories in that book And he was another [Guido]: of the stories in that book and he. [Rob]: and he's dressed like a stage magician basically he's [Guido]: Yeah, are like, um, ▁zatara, ▁. Aana's father [Rob]: yes yes [Guido]: in D. C. Yeah, [Rob]: totally yeah [Guido]: yeah, so this assemblage to villains is awesome

[Guido]: even though the battle scene, you know, it works kinda well. They do the typical like [Guido]: Te Moont Team thing where they discover that they're with the wrong person, Like [Rob]: listen [Guido]: Three D Man, and the Great Video are not a good match. They like Great Video is able [Guido]: to hurt Three D Man, And so Marvel Boy comes over and hits them and so like they do

[Guido]: that good sort of team thing with it. But they're just so fon. I love that they punch [Guido]: Electro into the Skeleton guy, whatever his name, even, was, Uh, Skull face, and he [Guido]: shatters and becomes a bunch of bones. And [Rob]: yes and then they knock somebody else out with one of his bones at the end [Guido]: yeah, it's it's really fun that they introduced all those people into it.

[Rob]: yeah there's a fabulous sense of fun throughout all of this a definitely a wink and [Rob]: a nudge but not in a [Rob]: not not too much of that i i [Guido]: No, [Rob]: love the other thing i really love throughout this and he says this so many times [Rob]: is whenever three d man gets hit or something he'll always say well that would have [Rob]: really hurt if i didn't have my try strength or [Guido]: Yes,

[Rob]: whatever and it almost seems like don glut probably may be giving a little bit of a [Rob]: poke to roy's creation of okay this this guy's powers is that he's as strong as as [Rob]: three people combine really that's it [Guido]: yeah, I think that could be true, and I also love. On that note, their official [Guido]: battle cry is Go, Avengers. Go. like I, I [Rob]: yes [Guido]: love that. it's you know. it's meant to be different. It's meant to not be a venter's

[Guido]: assemble, of course, but it's just Govengers go. I don't know [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: if that's pulling on any Fifties reference that I'm missing, but it's silly and fun, [Guido]: so I like that now Venus is blonde. I would. I like her better when she has white [Guido]: hair, but I'm willing to look past that and of course Auatu in this is [Guido]: real beefy, [Rob]: yes

[Guido]: real thick, and has like an eye of osyis. Like if you [Rob]: yes [Guido]: look on his costume in the final panels, like his costume is very different than it's [Guido]: ever looked before or since. [Rob]: mmm hmm [Guido]: But it's fun to see a different version.

[Rob]: yeah and it almost feels like maybe because you said roy started this and then don [Rob]: took it over because [Rob]: o wau is kind of then you know as you said he's he's we see him at the very [Rob]: beginning but really it's the avengers that are the wrap around and then about [Rob]: halfway through the issue they just plop wau down and its almost like he hits the [Rob]: pause button and says okay wait a second maybe i should explain who all these [Rob]: people are

[Guido]: Yeah, and he gives the origin for each person, which is fun because he does a good [Guido]: job. Each one is like three panels, and he captures pretty much everything that we [Guido]: read. [Guido]: So I'm not going to talk about this earth being revisited because we're about to get [Guido]: into that detail. so I'm not going to go into whether or not we want to go back to [Guido]: this earth. We can save that question [Rob]: mm

[Guido]: as we uh, ponder. So [Rob]: yes well let's jump in our space needle wait that's now silver bullet so our silver [Rob]: bullet which [Guido]: is that what Marvel Boys rocket is? [Rob]: is the name of marvel boyce that's marvel boy's rocket is this silver bullet and [Guido]: He also has the flying saucer, Though, [Rob]: he yes there's they're not always super consistent [Rob]: and while we do that we will ponder possibilities [Rob]: and Guido how did you come up with this list

[Guido]: so this was hard. I started with a very big list. You might have remembered that I [Guido]: warned you when we were beginning to read for this that we were going to be reading a [Guido]: lot. I ended up trimming it. [Rob]: yes and we had already read a lot all of our [Rob]: origin issues and then you were like there's even more [Guido]: I know I knew the origin, [Guido]: so so some of that is because.

[Guido]: All right, So what happens with the agents of Atelat, They they end up becoming Call [Guido]: the A. S. Valllic, [Rob]: eight [Guido]: spoiler alert. So what happens with the agents of Alice is that they don't show up [Guido]: for another, [Guido]: as as a unit. Certainly they don't show up for another thirty years, [Guido]: and one story happens in that thirty years that goes into the What if Which will get

[Guido]: into on this list. But and outside of that Venus shows up a little bit in Thor. they [Guido]: end up confirming that there's an aphrodite that's different from Venus. Naymoa shows [Guido]: up. She's been dead for a while. She ends up getting resurrected [Guido]: around what we read. Guerrilla Man shows up a bit. They do some ret Connie stuff [Guido]: where the Agents of Atlas. some of them met the ▁x Men in the Silver Age. That's in a

[Guido]: much later series though that they wreck con. So I had to go into their history and [Guido]: figure out what pieces [Guido]: seem to derive from [Guido]: the world that we visited, And so we start with [Guido]: an issue that actually [Guido]: directly takes on the whatff, [Rob]: is [Guido]: and then we move into the more modern interpretations, which and I just ended up [Guido]: having us read the introductory issues so you could get a sense, even though a lot

[Guido]: happens off out of the issue that we read. So I'll film a lot of blanks, but I ended [Guido]: up with three issues that I thought were necessary for us to understand how this [Guido]: story has created a lot of possibilities. [Rob]: yes so first up is avengers forever issue number five from april nineteen ninety [Rob]: nine and the story is past imperfect future tense [Guido]: So this, of course is the mini series Aveenters for ever, really important series.

[Guido]: For the Avenger's history, Lots of time travel, Earth travel, Immorts and Rick Jones [Guido]: are really important. In this, it's written by Kert Bussiac, Roger Stern, pencilled [Guido]: by Carlos Potco, Inced by Hazoos Marrio, coloured by Steve Oliff, lettered by Richard [Guido]: Sarkings and Albert to Sheens, and edited by Tom Brivt, [Guido]: So here's why we read this and here's the deal with this issue and then and then you

[Guido]: can talk a little bit about what we see. So Rick Jones, when he is looking at all the [Guido]: different time lines and the different versions of Avengers, he ends up seeing this [Guido]: version of Avengers, [Guido]: And so what this story ends up doing [Guido]: is [Guido]: potentially not sure. I agree. But at this point in Nineteen Ninety Nine, it ends up [Guido]: answering the question as to what were Beast, Iron Man Vision and Captain America and

[Guido]: Thorpe seeing? Was it our past or an alternate history, And this ends up saying it's [Guido]: an alternate timeline. [Guido]: So we meet the team. We find out a little bit about where the team has been and [Guido]: what's been happening and what's going on with them. It's still though in the past [Guido]: here, but it's later in the past because we have Richard Nixon and then they end up

[Guido]: dying and that time line ends up getting wiped out. so that's pretty much it. But [Guido]: what do you think about just getting to meet this team again, and then all this [Guido]: subplot with Richard Nixon, and whether or not Nixon was a scroll in all stuff?

[Rob]: yeah and i don't think it's necessarily that much later because i no actually it's [Rob]: not because um nixon was eisenhower's vice president and they say [Rob]: uh that he is the vice president here so [Guido]: Okay, so then it's still taking place in the fifties. [Rob]: yes [Guido]: Okay, [Rob]: exactly [Rob]: well i i i i liked it but i don't [Guido]: I mean, you got dropped into the middle of a very [Rob]: yes [Guido]: dense story.

[Rob]: i thought and this is going to be a course i think this is going to be across the [Rob]: other two issues that we're going to discuss in a second i just didn't think that [Rob]: it had [Rob]: the magic interactions as a group [Rob]: that they had in the what if [Guido]: Yeah, I agree with that.

[Rob]: their their personalities were a little less defined in many ways and i thought [Rob]: especially when you have these [Rob]: big characters who are [Rob]: inherently ridiculous on some level that you have to embrace that a little bit more [Rob]: and this was playing it a little bit more seriously serious [Guido]: Yeah, it's a very. Yeah, it's a very serious run. They're also in it very briefly. I

[Guido]: mean they're basically in it to to destroy them. ▁ultimately, in this attempt to [Guido]: destroy all these different iterations of aveenters in the multi verse, [Guido]: so [Guido]: yeah, I don't. I don't have much else to say, I wish for more from it, but I think we [Guido]: can move on because I think the next thing is really important and starts to make me

[Guido]: question this issue. So what are the next two things we read [Rob]: well the next two things are agents of atlas number one from october two thousand [Rob]: six the golden history [Guido]: And that's [Rob]: and agent [Guido]: written by Jeff Parker and pencilled by Leonard Kirk, inked by Chris Justice, colored

[Guido]: by Mi. Michelle Maden lettered by David Landnfer and edited by Mark [Rob]: wait [Guido]: Panacea and Nathan Cosby, [Rob]: and then the agents of atlas from october twenty nineteen [Rob]: behind the veil and it's a backup story

[Guido]: This is Yes, and this backup is written again by Jeff Parker. It's pencilled by Carlo [Guido]: Pugulian inked by Jason Paz, colored by Donno Sancho, ▁ Almara Letter by Josebinno, [Guido]: edited by Mark Pancha, Lindsey Kohck and Tom Gronman So you can see Jeff Parker, sort [Guido]: of owned the Agents of Atlas, while he created [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: the Edge of the Fallacy, Own these characters for fifteen years, pretty much, and

[Guido]: then handed them off to Greg Pack, So Gregg Pack was writing the new Agents of [Guido]: Atlas's story in twenty nineteen, That out of War of the Realms, this backu is [Guido]: helping bridge the original Agents of Atlas to the new one, so. We read these two [Guido]: things because the Two thousand Six Agents of Atlas is the first time that these [Guido]: characters are together, [Guido]: Arguably in the six, one six, but definitelyi, Since the what if [Guido]: and then

[Guido]: they try to make them a team. So this is a mini series. As this is the six issue mini [Guido]: series About two years later, they get an ongoing series. They play a medium role, [Guido]: small, medium role in the Darken Ren. Their show up in Secret Invasion. They get [Guido]: another ongoing title in Two thousand Nine. Then they show up when ▁x Men versus

[Guido]: Agents of Atlas, than they shop in Avenger's versus Agents of Atlas. So there is [Guido]: really an attempt to build this team as something important in the Marvel universe

[Guido]: during this era. But the Two thousand Six mini series is what reintroduces them, and [Guido]: then the Two thousand Nineteen is what positions them with where they are now, and [Rob]: is it [Guido]: before we get into detail what I want to say about what this means for the Earth [Guido]: designation [Guido]: is [Guido]: that in this first issue of Two thousand Six, [Guido]: ▁jimmy, Woo [Guido]: recounts the What if events [Rob]: yes

[Guido]: as if they happen in the six One Six, so to me that this [Guido]: proves that this team existed in the nineteen fifties as the Avengers, [Rob]: hm [Guido]: and there's just no way around that like [Rob]: yeah no it [Guido]: unless you want to. Dismiss every agents of Atlas story that's come out over the last

[Guido]: eighteen years. You have to accept that the what if, either the what if is just a [Guido]: different version of the events, the same events happening in the six, one six, or, [Guido]: or we ignore the aveenters forever, or the event forever found a very similar world. [Guido]: That's [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: not the W, and destroys it. But this proves the the only way this works. The only way [Guido]: the agents of Atlas work in any of the story telling over the last sixteen years. Is

[Guido]: that what if happened? Because otherwise [Rob]: yes [Guido]: there's no reason for this team to be together and again. ▁jimmy actually recounts [Guido]: exactly the what if, including the kidnapping of the President? Everything? [Rob]: yeah and yellow claw and all those things yeah [Guido]: So I kind of love that, like there's something. [Guido]: I, the reason I, I'm so into this episode and that we did this reading is cause I [Guido]: love that sort of weaving of story and [Rob]: is

[Guido]: you know it's sort of retcon. But it's not like Jeff Parker's clearly taking pieces [Guido]: from the What if that he thinks are [Rob]: yes [Guido]: canonical, or he wants to be canonical. And then he's building from them and I think [Guido]: it works really well. It's really cool. [Guido]: So what did you think of this sort of relaunch Attempt to to build them out again?

[Rob]: yeah i mean i actually i really love the part of this [Rob]: of the two thousand six issue where we're actually [Rob]: exploring going back and seeing this story from kind of a new perspective i thought [Rob]: it was really good there's some fun [Rob]: uh moments in there i love when they rescue eisenhower and he actually doesn't [Rob]: necessarily want almost be rescued [Guido]: Yes, [Rob]: because he's being tampered by these women who are fanning him and everything so i

[Rob]: thought that was really uh fun and you know i didn't love some of the changes the [Rob]: so the human robot does not speak anymore in these ones which i miss because i [Rob]: thought some of the best moments from the what if were him not understanding things [Rob]: the little he does speak in that one so i i would like him to have spoke [Rob]: but [Rob]: then the other thing i'm kind of uh interested in and i don't know if you know [Rob]: anything more about this is the way they manifest

[Rob]: venus' powers which is [Guido]: Yeah, through singing. [Rob]: a very specific way well uh not just through singing but then you see her giant [Rob]: naked body in the sky [Guido]: Well, I don't know if that's I think. that's more just [Guido]: a visual trick to sort of understand her on the presence, but the singing thing shows

[Guido]: up a lot. I don't know why. In the in the next issue she actually is singing Joene, [Guido]: like they always actually [Rob]: yes [Guido]: have her singing recognizable love songs and that's kind of fun. [Rob]: well it actually say in the twenty nineteen issue that she is a former siren of [Rob]: ancient myth [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: so i guess they and she's and she's a red head now too so [Guido]: yes.

[Rob]: she's got some changes so maybe they changed it from her being a god to her being [Guido]: well, [Guido]: yeahcause, like I said, they established that Aphroditeite exists and she is not [Rob]: a mythical siren [Guido]: aphroity, so they had to differentiate her slightly from afroditeing. The Two [Guido]: thousand Six series [Guido]: is huge, Especially I mean this series. I think people are sleeping on. You know, to

[Guido]: talk about speculation. I, I'll have to mention it to our our friends at Spectilles, [Guido]: because this reintroduces ▁jimmy Woo [Rob]: is he [Guido]: ▁jimmy Woo. At this point they've aged him in real time, and in a similar [Rob]: yes [Guido]: way to they did with Nick Fury, And this Two thousand Six series reintroduces a young [Guido]: ▁jimmy Woo.

[Rob]: mhm [Guido]: So it is the reason we have the ▁jimmy woo that we have now in the M C U, and in any [Guido]: comics is because of Agents of Atlas, and ▁jimmy Woo was actually playing a huge role [Guido]: in the current iteration of Agents of Alice, although the title keeps getting [Guido]: cancelled. Sadly, and so, I don't think Gregg Pack has gone to tell the whole story

[Guido]: that he wants to. But yeah, it's pretty [Guido]: important that they resurrect this young ▁jimmy woo, because otherwise it's an old [Guido]: ▁jimmy, who's dying [Rob]: yes [Guido]: until the final page of the first issue. [Guido]: And so that's really important about this and then the just real quick one tid bit. [Guido]: I. I jumped ahead to this mini series. even though I didn't have us read the whole

[Guido]: thing. It closes with the ret con that the human robots creator that night, when he [Guido]: was before, he sort of retooled him, and then he ended up getting corrupted by the [Guido]: other instructions. [Guido]: He like

[Guido]: super shocked himself to put part of his consciousness into the robot. And that's [Guido]: what makes the human robot human is that he actually has a part of the creator [Rob]: yes well they keep calling him the human robot and he's it's like no he's he's just [Rob]: a robot but [Guido]: right, Just a smart. A I. So, yes, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: that sort of Jeff Parker, sort of fixes that, I guess, with that.

[Rob]: yes [Guido]: Um, So so again all this stuff happens post two thousand six and then we get to two

[Guido]: thousand nineteen and so in two thousand nineteen. ▁jimmy, Woo [Guido]: reassembles a [Guido]: ex, exclusively Asian based cast of characters as the Agents of Atlas, and it's [Guido]: actually a great [Guido]: set of stories that Greggpck tells against spinning out of Wharf Realms into their [Guido]: own title that is cut short or gets cancelled, and then goes into Atlanta's attacks, [Guido]: which then gets cut short or cancelled And so we don't have all of this story told,

[Guido]: But the backu that we read is what brings us back the characters who've now been [Guido]: missing only a few years, because again they show up as Agents of Atlas, that team [Guido]: sort. Of functions on the edge of the Marvel Universe, six, one, six for a while, and [Guido]: then in this mini series in twenty nineteen, we're meeting the new Agents of Atlas, [Guido]: and then this old team. the Atlas Foundation are

[Guido]: brought together and we get to see where they've been. So what do you think of seeing [Guido]: that stuff? [Rob]: yeah i i it's interesting again seeing some of the changes that they made and so [Rob]: he's no longer marvel boy he's the i can never [Guido]: The Inian.

[Rob]: say the word you y the uranian and he also now looks like an alien but not all all [Rob]: the time and he's wearing a gla a glass fish bowl over his head [Guido]: Yes, he can't breathe and I knew that that happened, but I don't know the thing about [Guido]: how, when he loses control of himself, he starts to look alien. He has a. So so most [Guido]: of these characters during this fifteen years that Jeff Parker is sort of rebooting

[Guido]: them. They get like mini series. So I think there's a three issue Guerrilla man. [Guido]: There's the three issue [Guido]: Um, Uranian marble boy. [Guido]: So yeah, I haven't read all of that and and I definitely now want to. [Rob]: yeah i i really liked everything when it was involving them i i also really like [Rob]: the art i wasn't in love with the two thousand and six art which is very that kind [Rob]: of not incredibly detailed art style

[Guido]: Yeah, it is very sparse. Yeah, [Rob]: but here i really like this which is it's got a cartoony quality to it that i [Rob]: really enjoy of course i it kind of lost me a bit when it gots into heavy dragon [Rob]: territory and i'm not sure fully what's going on

[Guido]: Yes, there is a lot of dragon stuff. I think it's causecause Greg Pack is is pulling [Guido]: on a lot of different mythologies [Rob]: hm [Guido]: with the Asian characters and this dragon stuff, though, I think does come from some [Guido]: of the Jeff Parker series, but it shows up a lot in these miniiseries. and then [Guido]: Atlantis Attacks has all to do with that.

[Guido]: Did you catch also the the before the letters page of this issue? You have a whole [Guido]: letter from Jeff Parker, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: and a whole letter from Greg Pox, So it's kind of a bit of a hand off here describing [Guido]: the Agents of Atlas, And it has the What if cover and it has art from the What if in [Guido]: it, too. And [Guido]: and again, he, he. He doesn't question that it just exists in six, one, six, So I [Guido]: think it does. I think it's one of the very rare.

[Guido]: if not only what if that is actually a six one, six issue, no [Rob]: hm [Guido]: matter what anyone else says, [Guido]: so [Rob]: read [Guido]: yeah, that's pretty much our reading. So [Guido]: a few questions as [Rob]: really [Guido]: we are exploring these possibilities, Did the What if inspire these? I mean, that's [Rob]: yo yes yeah yes [Guido]: not even a question worth asking. The. the What if didn't just inspire these? These

[Guido]: are built from the. What? The What if is made cannon by these titles. For sure. Do [Guido]: you want? I, I mean, we can't even ask. Do you want to go back to this world now, [Guido]: because it's the six One six. [Rob]: yeah but i i would i guess i can say do i want to [Rob]: see more of these characters which i think is definitely yes [Guido]: Do you want to read more?

[Rob]: i i i don't think anyone captured them as well i mean i definitely would read more [Rob]: this run i think don glut captured the camaraderie between the characters the best [Rob]: and i think i also was just attracted to the use of those crazy villains there and [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: really embraced that ridiculousness which i think is one of the reasons why i [Rob]: sometimes love js a too and and and jazan and those kind of characters where they

[Rob]: have that silliness but they're they're play it very seriously in that way so i [Rob]: would love to see a little bit more of that come into the series and maybe it does [Rob]: but i would certainly read more with these characters what if about you [Guido]: Well, once they get reestablished too, I think they probably lean more into the the

[Guido]: character and comedic elements like you'll notice. in this first issue of The Two [Guido]: Thousand Six, we don't even meet all of them yet and we [Rob]: yes [Guido]: barely see Marvel Boy And so it slowly rebuilds the team. and then, like I said, they [Guido]: go up against ▁x men. And and I think that's a very funny, silly, two issue or three [Guido]: issue mini series that happens. And so I think they get back into some of the weird [Guido]: stuff.

[Rob]: and there is a good light of humor too throughout i mean three d man still has a [Rob]: and there is a good light of humor too throughout i mean three d man still has a [Guido]: Yeah, I, I love it. [Rob]: lot of jokes and [Rob]: lot of jokes and [Guido]: Yes, and this is [Rob]: yeah so [Guido]: the different three D men, which I don't [Rob]: yes [Guido]: know how that happens. But this is a different one. [Guido]: Um, this, and so, a side note for people who want to read more,

[Guido]: there are two trade paperback collections called the Complete Agents of Atlas. The [Guido]: first one has [Guido]: this mini series. the first mini series, It has the first half of their ongoing [Guido]: series. It has some of their crossover issues with A with a Spider Man Family title [Guido]: and the Secret Invasion title. And then it actually Cool enough has every one's [Guido]: Golden Age first appearance.

[Guido]: It doesn't include the Three De Man's first appearance, but it includes all the [Guido]: others, and the Three Man's first appearance Actually is not easy to find. It's one [Guido]: of those issues, not digital. and then volume too, has the rest of their ongoing run, [Guido]: as well as a few crossover series. Uh, when Hercules dies, there's a. There's a bit [Guido]: of a big plot with Venus in there, And so those issues are in that second trade

[Guido]: paperback. So those who trade paperbacks, which are only a few years old, tell pretty [Guido]: much the whole story up until the War of the Realm's relaunch of Agents of Atlas and [Guido]: Gregpcks, carrying the Torch with them, and then, like I said, that continues through

[Guido]: Atlantis' attacks. But that title ended over a year ago and and the Agents of Atlas [Guido]: haven't been seen, so I hope that that changes, and I hope that they show up in more [Guido]: stuff, but right now they're sort of [Guido]: off doing something. [Rob]: yeah i would love to see them in [Rob]: the m c [Guido]: same.

[Rob]: i don't know if you will because they're probably gonna introduce this qu squadron [Rob]: supreme before they introduce [Rob]: this group and there are a lot of similarities in the fact that they both are tied [Rob]: very well these characters are actually from the forties and fifties the squadron [Rob]: supreme always feels like they are playing off of a variation of forty seconds and [Rob]: fifty seconds characters since they're based on those dc characters right

[Guido]: Yeah, yeah, although I do think I mean, I definitely think that [Guido]: I. I. It surprises me that that that Gregpox's titles like again, I don't know for a [Guido]: fact that they kept getting canceled, but it feels like they did because there was a [Guido]: lot of build up in story and they would all end pretty quickly. I think some of them [Guido]: were designed as Minni's but [Rob]: so [Guido]: they were designed to sort of build on each other. Um, I wouldn't be surprised if we

[Guido]: saw that team because it's also a super diverse team. It's a. It's again. It's people [Guido]: from representing all different Asian cultures on that team, but you could intersect [Guido]: the two agents of Atlas, which happens in one of these series. ▁jimmy. Woo introduces [Guido]: the old agents of Atlas to the new agents of Atlice, And

[Guido]: yeah, I mean, Namora would definitely be a character that that. I think they could [Guido]: get some use from three D men would be silly human robot, Maybe would be silly [Guido]: guerrilla Man and Venus, I think could be fun, Marvele boy. I think would be hur [Guido]: hard. They. if they do the retooled, ▁onian'd be fine, but Marble Boy would be hard [Guido]: because you have both quasar and then you have no var, Marvel boy, a different Marvel

[Guido]: boy. That would create some confusion that I think we'll see down the line, so Yeah, [Guido]: I'd like them to show up to them. [Rob]: yeah i was getting also [Rob]: a very doom patrol vibe maybe because they also have a robot [Guido]: Well, that's true.

[Rob]: and jimmy woo is almost less always a less benevolent chief too i mean you have [Rob]: that kind of [Rob]: leadership role who's a little outside of the group like he doesn't have the [Rob]: superpowers so i was definitely getting that vibe and i think that would be a s a [Rob]: good tone if they explored it in a in a live action medium [Guido]: Yeah, well, the other thing it made me think of with the M C U, was even the Reccon [Guido]: with Captain Marvel in the M C U,

[Guido]: leading to the creation of the Avengers [Guido]: and having Nick Fury take the name from that, it reminded. I was reminded of that a [Guido]: bit in [Rob]: oh yes yeah [Guido]: this idea, this idea that these, [Guido]: that, if we take it a six one, six canon, which I think we' established I do, then [Guido]: this team formed the Avengers in the fifties, and fought as the Avengers and then [Guido]: that history was wiped out, and then the Avengers were reformed after that, But it's

[Guido]: a cool recon that reminded me of the Captain Marble, one a bit. [Guido]: Yeah, so [Guido]: that's it and I've been Guido your watcher [Rob]: and i have been rob the uranian in more ways than one [Rob]: i don't know why i can't say that word it's like oh

[Guido]: Well, because it's you know. it's I think. it's because of my uh, past history with [Guido]: astrology that [Guido]: I think to avoid the ▁uranous thing [Rob]: yes [Guido]: that people say ▁nus, or or, And so I'm used to hearing that And so ▁onnian [Guido]: makes sense to me to say you could say ▁urraanian. That's fine. [Rob]: uranian yes exactly [Guido]: So [Rob]: well [Rob]: the that [Guido]: the [Rob]: is a rap for this episode but thank you dear Watchers for listening

[Guido]: and the really extra long reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on [Guido]: Twitter at dear Watchers [Rob]: and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts we'll be back soon with another [Rob]: trip through the multiverse [Guido]: in the meantime, in the words of Uatu, keep pondering the possibilities.