In another multiverse, I would have a really funny intro line, but in this multiverse, I would just say, welcome to Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse. So this is the dark universe for Rob, and we are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And you're watchers on this journey are. Me, Guido from Earth. I have no idea. Earth. Eight.
Three eight. I'll just pick an Earth we know and are going to talk about today. And I'm Rob, but on this Earth, I'm, like, really tall. That's the only difference. I'm not short. I'm tall. But do you have the same face? Are you played by the same actor? Just a taller version. Yes. They use some of that Lord of the Rings magic on me to make me taller. The reverse hobbiting, basically.
Okay, well, before we begin today's trip through our multiverse, Gita, what's new with us in our little section of this galaxy? Well, this is our first episode in two weeks, or I guess it was two weeks ago that you had a new episode from us. Last, we took a little break. As we've mentioned a few weeks ago, we'll sometimes need a week between episodes to help us prepare things and, frankly, do other things. So we missed you. We missed recording and sharing with you, and we definitely missed all
of your online chatter with us. But we are happy to be back this week with a very timely episode. We want Victor timely episode, if you will. No, not a Victor timely episode. Thank you. so we want you to use these breaks when we do take a week off to listen to old episodes. We are on episode 120, as you're about to hear in Rob's, transition. And we have 119 other episodes for you to listen to. So go back, find some of those interviews. It's not Halloween, but we did some great horror coverage
last month, so go listen to those. So please use our breaks to your advantage if you haven't listened to every. Episode, lots of Jason Voorhees content. Two weeks of Jason Voorhees content, and one, he was fighting Jason Voorhees. So that's almost like, extra. It was. It was an overwhelming amount. Well, if you are joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today. Origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and
pondering possibilities. So thank you for joining us on today's trip. And remember that you can follow us on all social media at. Dear Watchers, we want you to tell us what you think the direction of the Marvel Multiverse is, and please leave a review wherever you're listening. A five star review really helps us out. And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to Episode 120. And let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's
alternate universe. And let's jump right into Origins of the story, where we'll explain today's question. Right now on this very show, you're. Going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago, so we always start our episodes with a what if? Question. And today we are asking the question, what if Marvel's multiverse saga was redirected by just one day in the if. You said multiverse as multiverse. So that's an interesting one. Maybe we should have an episode,
about. Is it multiverse or multiverse? Multiverse. Multiverse. Multiverse. Now, it could probably say it either. And you say tomato. I say tomato. You changed it up for that one pronunciation. Well, I've already said it about 12 million times in just this first few minutes here, so, Keto, let's jump into it. What is this question we are asking today? Well, it really just came to us because, probably accidentally, ultimately, because we know that Hollywood schedules are really not
that easy to move. But somehow, literally 24 hours in the same 24 hours, the multiverse saga has been redirected, at least in my opinion, by Marvel in the MCU. And it's fascinating to me that these two things hit and did that. So we are going to explore what the MCU, which is 6116, for all intents and purposes. I know some People get really irritated that it is the Six one Six, because the comic book universe is the six one Six, but it's
the on screen Six one six. We're going with it. So we are going to look at the 6116 MCU and the Multiverse in it, past, present, and future. And, so to start us off in this first segment, we'll look at the multiverse in the MCU prior to this week. So, for our first segment, spoilers only. For things that have been out for a year or longer, if you were. One of the few people that did not see Spider man, no way home. Turn it off now.
So we cataloged the, MCU Multiverse, helped along by this month's the Marvel Cinematic Universe, an official timeline, a great oversized hardcover book that we are going to refer to a few times. So we looked at all the places that the multiverse has been present in the saga of the same name or a little bit prior to it. We don't include other dimensions. We don't include other
realms. We don't include time slips, which I know Endgame makes a bit confusing because they're sort of alternate timelines, but they're also trying to maintain, like, a sacred timeline to use their own language. So, we're not going to include any of those things. We're going to look at the multiverse. And we're not going to talk also about the Sony animated Spider man movies, because those are more multiversal than really anything the MCU proper has done. But that's in another universe.
They are. And we're also going to leave out what if, even though what the Marvel Studios team really wants, what if to be treated as MCU Canon, we're not going to do that. It also feels like that show was on about 50 years ago, and I do not remember many M details. And season two might be coming out soon ish. but season one, sure, all of those are Marvel multiverses, but they're self contained. We're not dealing with them. We're leaving them there, and maybe one day we'll see them
again. Who knows? So here's what we've got for you in our catalog. We've got Quentin Beck's references in Spiderman, far from home to a possible multiverse. And that movie came out in July 2019. We've got the Multiverse in Loki series one. The existence of it really doesn't, occur until the finale, but there are variants. So it's clear there's a multiverse throughout the series. But that finale is the key here. And that's from July
2021. It aired. We have, of course, Spiderman no way home, which came out in December 2021, and Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness from May 2022. So before we dig into the MCU chronology of these events and what they mean, let's just talk about now sort of our reactions to the multiverse in those pieces. Well, it's funny you started with Quinton Beck, because I had forgotten about this way back in July 2019, because, of course, he,
Mysterio claims he is from the Multiverse. We see these other creatures, and I think a lot of us were speculating when the movie was coming out. Oh, my gosh, it's going to be a multiverse movie. Oh, he's from the Multiverse. Turns out that he's faking the whole time, or is he? I'm curious how much they had been thinking about this when they were creating that at the time, or how much we're now. Looking back at that retrospectively, I would.
Think having just read the also really great, pretty much oral history book on the MCU that came out, my guess is the mapping had to be to at least where we are now. Now, things got totally derailed by COVID and certainly this year by the Strikes, but in 2019, they had to know a few years out where they were going. So I think it was intentional. Now, was it just a sort of Easter, eggy, teasy, jokey kind of thing, or will it ultimately mean
something? I don't know. I just saw this week someone speculating that, or the rumor mill, which is all BS, of course, that Jake Gyllenhaal is going to be Reed Richards. So that would be a thing. Yeah, I don't know about that. And I think he would have to be in the 6116, right? Because we see he's in Tony's life, we just haven't really actually seen him there. So it would be quite. Gone to another multiverse, or, like, he could have knowledge of the multiverse that no one else has, for
whatever reason. I doubt it. But it is possible. It is funny to think about, and these other three examples are the, explicit moments in the MCU for the multiverse, which is funny because the saga at the time wasn't named, so people didn't know. Of course. I was wondering about that building in this. Ah, I should have looked up when the saga was named, but it was relatively recently. Perhaps it was around the time of Doctor Strange, but I want to say it was, slightly after, maybe even San
Diego after that. So it's just interesting that we started getting these drops of this narrative through line prior to understanding that it was supposed to be something bigger, which is, of course, what the Infinity saga did, too. We got the teases of Thanos, the teases of the Infinity Stones, and then we found out, like, that is the direction we're moving in. The infinity saga is where we're going. So it's been sort of fun to look
back on these different examples. Let me bring in the official chronology of these, because that messes with you a little. I love this book. I love that they put it out. It is so nerdy. There are these little blurbs that Miss minutes does when there is a discrepancy, and that's a real discrepancy. So, like, if someone on screen says that Wanda was born in 1989, but in something else, it said she was born in 1988. There's a little box where Miss Minutes
will say, oops, there's a discrepancy here. We'll have to investigate it. And it's just a cute way of pointing to actual contradictions in this, because, as you said, they can't always plan everything years in advance the way they want it. So some of it's being retconned, and. Everything is actually taking place a little bit more in the future from when. Actually, because of the five year jump in Endgame.
So that's the key here, which makes it all really mind boggling, because we're also, right now, at the point of the five year jump, we're at the point of the Return of the Blitz, people. So it's kind of weird when you read this timeline, because ultimately, the timeline places Loki breaking the timeline, creating the multiverse, if you will, or ripping open the multiverse, or however you want to see that by killing he who remains as the first in the events that we have already named.
That happens around Fall 2023. And Mysterio does not appear to Peter until the summer of 2024. So again, in the MCU timeline, obviously, we're not in the summer of 2024 yet. So this is in the MCU timeline. That's when that happens. And Loki really, though, is taken out of even the very first Avengers movie, which is even years earlier. But I guess once you're in the TVA time, and that's what's hard about. Placing it even on the pages when they're running the timeline of the TVA and Loki, because
the whole book is organized chronologically. But the TVA timeline is like a separate timeline that they show. So, yeah, time is a little funky there, but they clearly position fall 2023 breaking open the multiverse. Mysterio appears in summer 2024, makes that reference. It's Fall 2024 that Spiderman unites with the other Spider people. So Dr. Strange, of course, in Spiderman, no way home, helping to pull through the other Spider Men. And that happens in Fall 2024, which is the same time that
America Chavez shows up with Dr. Strange. They fight. Wanda, you have the example of dreamwalking as a little bit of a multiversal thing in multiverse of madness. And, of course, you then have Earth eight three Eight, which is where the Illuminati are. And we meet all these different characters, some who are familiar, Xavier and Agent
Carter. But it's a different Earth than any Earth. We've met them on before, and Clea showing up to talk about the multiversal incursions at the very end, all of that eight three eight content that is fall, 2024. And so that's actually the last time until this week. That is the last time that we see the multiverse explicitly that we know of right now.
Well, what's interesting is that we really have these three, really only really three tangible examples of multiverses, even though everyone seems to be talking about multiverses today. We've been talking about this on the show, where this is a word that's so much in our lexicon right now, everyone's kind of talking about it. And yet, in this giant series, which, as you've said, even this whole arc is being named
Multiverse, we've only had these three segments. And even within those segments, they haven't even been super multiversal. No. Even if you think about, first of all, we haven't spent more than a few minutes in another universe. That's true. Yeah. Eight three eight is the closest example, and we don't spend too much time there. And then we haven't gotten to know people that we know of from the multiverse. If you count Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield, I guess they
probably get the most screen time. Or Willem Dafoe. Right. He's from the multiverse in that. Yeah, most of them. And the Doc ock. Yeah, most of, Yeah, so, sure. Those are the people we get to spend the most time with, and then a little bit less. So the Illuminati, they die pretty fast. so we get hints at it. We get hints, which this is relevant. We get that Maria Rambeau on Earth Eight three Eight
is Captain Marvel. We meet the first read that we've ever seen on screen in the MCU, of course, but it's a different one, and it's been confirmed that it will be a different one than we see. So, yeah, we barely spend time even with these people. Well, it's interesting, too, because the Spider man, it's no way home, and multiverse of madness are kind of almost the inverses of themselves, because in no way home, we get a character meeting himself from other multiverses, but we don't really
go to the multiverse. In Multiverse of madness, we don't really have Doctor Strange interacting with another Doctor Strange, except, like the Zombie one, which doesn't really count, but he's in the other universe, but he doesn't really see another version of himself. Why I'm thinking almost the Sony movies are like, the perfect combination is because it's another world and the characters interacting together. We haven't really gotten that up to this point yet.
Yeah. Though in part, it only works because they're characters we know. Yeah, that's true. Spiderman. No way home. Could you imagine if those were like, let's just say they cast two random people as two other Spiderman. The story wouldn't work as well because as an audience, you'd just be like, okay, so there's two different Spider Men. Like, who cares?
if they were the. And we've talked about the nostalgia factor. We did an episode on no way home and talked a lot about the problems with that that we. But. And if it's the same actor, you run into a little bit of kind of what the flash movie did, too, where it's like, okay, now we're tracking. Okay, wait, which Barry is this on screen? Who am I with the short hair? The one with the long hair. So that you can tell. They always do little M cues. Like,
yeah, you're right. They are two different ways of doing the multiverse. But for sure, both of them are multiverse light. And I think that's by design. And some of this is, in retrospect, after this week. But this doesn't spoil anything. In retrospect, I realized, like, okay, these were designed to show us the cracks in the universe, in the multiverse, in the omniverse,
let's say. So all of these stories were just there to tell us, like, there's an instability that's coming, and the instability is starting to make the boundaries more porous. Again, in hindsight, I realized that's what these projects were doing. And I appreciate them a little more because. And, it's interesting, too, both of them really well. And then Loki, but they both needed. Dr. Strange plays an integral
role. I mean, I know America is the one who's kind of breaking it in, but maybe they almost felt like, oh, they needed magic or something. Like they needed some kind of device like magic where you can kind of make anything happen with that. So he's also the one, of course, in Endgame who sees 14 million multiverses and realize they're only going to win in one. Now, again, I left out time. We should have had Elliot on this episode because he likes Time travel. I do not like
time travel. And I am sure, of course, you can argue that every alternate timeline is a multiverse in and of itself, but I'm sort of leaving that out. But I think that's probably also why Doctor Strange made sense at that point, because his ability, if you will, to at least see across the multiverse, if not actually visit it was established by Endgame.
And even in his first movie, where he goes to other dimensions, which are also not really multiversal verses as well, but he's able to pull in those other dimensions, the mirror world, and where Dormammu is. Well, and he creates the time loop with Dormammu, he's essentially creating. I mean, actually, again, in the official chronology book, they do this cool little
loop of time. Anytime someone steps out of time, they do, like, a break in the timeline, and then they have it loop around and show you what's happening. And so that's essentially a multiverse, for all intents and purposes. And just like the other one that we haven't mentioned that came before this week, is Quantum Mania, where you have not really a multiverse there. I guess the quantum realm vaults more into other dimensions.
To me, it does to that. The multiverse in Quantum Mania, I'd say, which we didn't talk about, is the character of Kang. I think that would be the example of the multiverse there, because it's established that he's a variant, and it's established, I guess, that he can transverse universes. But outside of that, I don't see that movie as having too much of a multiverse. Yeah, there's a singer there as well, where we meet other kangs, which may or may not be moot at this point.
So we know that there is, a nexus, if you will. Not a nexus in the Marvel definition, but an actual, just central point where different kangs can come togetheR. So, yeah, a little multiverse in Quantum Mania skipped over that. Let's get on to how this all, in my opinion, has changed for the better. Did you know, Guido, that our segment two is actually called exploring Multiversity? So why don't we do that? I am your guide through these vast new
realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if? And this is also the section where we'll be starting to get into some. Heavy duty, very recent spoilers, very, very. Spoilers, have not seen Marvel and Loki. And I think a lot more people are waiting to see these movies than they were a few years ago. True. So just be warned that this segment, Marvel's spoilers, abound. Yes, because we are answering the question, what if Marvel's multiverse saga was redirected by just
one day in the MCU? And we're starting with the Marvels with a special focus on the Stinger mid credit scene. And that, of course, came out in. November 2023, when we were recording this episode. This movie was directed by Nia DeCosta, who wrote it with Megan McDonald and Elisa Kurasek, and it's produced by Kevin Feige. This, just a little background on those creators, is DaCosta's third ever feature. Her second film was the Candyman Reboot, and she's the youngest MCU director.
Co writer McDonald wrote some of WandaVision, and co writer Karasic wrote one episode of Loki's first series. So an interesting team to be working on this and definitely makes sense considering the threads they're pulling together here. So we could talk about the movie overall. I want to stay focused on the Multiverse because the movie overall is less relevant to our conversation today. I'd say with one exception, which is the jump points and
what happens to Monica in the movie. So before we get to the Stinger, I think there's a few things. Where do you want to start? well, I know some of our opinions are differing on the movie itself, so we won't go, as you said, too much into no. And whether we like to review the movie. I really liked the movie. I think it's fun. I think it works. I think it's narratively strong. Rob? I thought it had some fun moments
to it. I thought it had some lessons that I will have to maybe revisit and see if my mind changes. But yeah, I think the key thing that it's doing, I'm interested in the fact that, in fact, we were debriefing it with Elliot, as we always do, and he mentioned not even realizing that the jump points were creating the opportunity for a multiversal story. And I did realize that right away. Elliot, I'm just smarter than you. But I think they did definitely do a soft touch on it. And
I'm really curious why. I appreciate it. I think that it wasn't yet another. It's funny because in our first segment, we just talked about that the multiverse hasn't showed up in the MCU. And yet I think you're right. Everyone feels that there is oversaturation. We've passed saturation on multiverses. So I sort of appreciate that they framed this as these jump points, this teleportation. It sort of rips space and time and don't lean into like, this is a multiversal story until the Stinger.
Yeah. What did you think of that?
Yeah, I think what this movie highlighted, well, you were talking about in our first segment that we're not going to focus on time, but it really made me think, well, time and multiverses are so connected, and the line blends together because this movie, I think, for better or for worse, this movie, more so than other MCU movies, I think you do need to have a sense of the timeline and the history with these characters, while some of the other projects, I think you can kind of just go
into. So it was making me think, yes, maybe it's not multiversal, but we really need to know. Like, there's the segments where Captain Marvel, where Brie Larson is trying to recount her, get her memories back, and that's time, but it's almost on, the border and multiversal in a way, because she's bringing in these memories from almost another person or another life that she had. So I almost see a connection there as well. What do you. I think. I think it's just woven into the
storytelling now. Again, they don't have to make it that, ooh, there's some incursion from another universe, or, ooh, we might end up in another universe, which is, of course, spoiler. Now what happens to Monica? But, yeah, they can just sort of play with a sense of boundaries, of time and space. Even Miss Marvel, Kamala, in this movie, reminds everyone that she has traveled through time and space with the bangles. That
is kind of multiversal storytelling now. She doesn't alter the past, she doesn't go to a different universe, but just the fact that she's able to do that has a ton of potential for multiversal storytelling. So I think there are lots of elements of multiverse in here, but without making it a movie about the multiverse, that's what I was really struck by.
Yeah, I was almost half expecting watching it for America Chavez to show up, too, just because it was like, I. Would have made it a multiverse movie. Yeah, well, it's such a female fronted movie and also a, diverse cast as well. So I was thinking, oh, it would just make sense that America shows up and maybe she's going to Jersey City High School now or something like that. I think Kamala is going to be recruiting America for that team she's putting together. Yes, I'm sure we'll see
her. So now, the Stinger, of course, if you're listening, it's because you either don't care if you're spoiled or you saw it, but if you're listening and didn't see it and don't care that you're spoiled? In the Stinger, Monica, who has been trapped past the boundaries of a hole in space time that's created by the villain of the film. She gets trapped when she seals it from the side she's on. She wakes up, and she is now in a universe where she's, I presume, in
the X Mansion. And she is with Hank McCoy, Beast being played by Kelsey Grammar, who plays him in X Two and three, and she's with her mother, Maria Rambeau, being played by the actor who plays Maria in the 6116. But we find out that Maria is actually binary, so there is a lot to unpack in this. What was your reaction when you were experiencing it? Well, I think, like you and so much of the world, I was expecting some kind of X Men thing to come up, and
I wasn't actually expecting this. I was definitely pretty surprised. But I think overall, I was then thinking, oh, this is going to make a lot of sense, knowing the things that we've had trickle out about Deadpool and that the way that they're. We'll talk about the future in our next. But I think. I think the ways that I was seeing, oh, this is the kind of ways that they're easing us back into the X world with familiar characters. Into the Fox world. Into the Fox. Well, I think the X world.
Yeah. Because what I liked about the presence of Maria and Maria being binary and Charles being alive is. It's clearly telling us that's true. This is neither the Fox universe, nor is it the eight. Ah, three eight, where we've already met Xavier, that Xavier and that Maria are dead. And so I appreciate that this is a different universe, even though it's using an actor for a character that we've seen played, is, I believe it will
be a completely different universe. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other characters we know are different people if Xavier is not Patrick Stewart, not James McEvoy, but someone else. Well, I think that's the thing about how they've approached variants and the multiverse that has been a little inconsistent,
which is we have. Sometimes the people look just like them, like in Loki, where there's a lot of other people that look like Loki, but then there's some that don't look like Loki, and then there's only really one we're introduced to that has a different gender than. Yeah. although we don't know the alligator's gender, but. Okay, that's true. We do not know the alligator's gender. Yeah, that's that is something that has been. So here we have Beast, who is played,
by the same actor from the Fox universe. But I agree, would Charles now be someone different? We've seen Charles, though, from, I guess, kind of the animated universe in person, in multiverse of madness as well. So I think that's the one thing that they haven't quite really figured out yet. and like Kang, we saw his variants and they all were played by the same actor. every KaNg we've seen so far that we know of has been played by the same almost. I would like to see that we almost
need. Well, actually, maybe Hank McCoy, is it? Because I was going to say we almost need a geneticist to give us some, explanation. And it doesn't even have to be rooted in true genetic science, but just to explain that probability of genetic makeup dictates, and the fact that there are infinite universes then dictates that there are many variants who are identical to you and there are many variants who are not.
We would just need someone to say that. And maybe it will be Hank, because the other thing that struck me about this scene is that he says, you could be from another universe, but of course, we all know those don't exist, or he says something to that effect. So he doesn't yet know this is true. And so I'm assuming his learning about this is going to be part of the next story we see. And maybe he'll then be the person to explain variance, the science of variance.
To us, even for our 6116 characters. Right. Because someone like Captain America and Bucky will have not been involved at all in any kind of multiversal story. So those characters might not know that such a thing as the multiverse even exists because they've just been off having their own. Yes. Yeah. as we build in the multiverse saga, we are going to have to introduce and explain it to a lot of other people. That's true.
It kind of reminds me of how aliens were introduced into the world, because some of these characters, like Sam, were not. They didn't know aliens existed. And suddenly there's aliens, or suddenly you have characters being brought into outer space. It's kind of like how we were brought into the world through Scott Lang in civil war, where, oh, he was just kind of doing his own thing, and now suddenly we're going off with him and he's experiencing a much bigger world.
So I think we're going to have that. See that again through some of these characters. Well, and the storytelling shows it. Your space example is a good one, because in the Marvels, of course, the fact that Kamala's parents and brother get to go to outer space and talk about being in outer space just shows how big the world has
become. Ten years ago, or when Guardians started, which was close to ten years ago, you had people remarking on the outlandishness of this space existence, and now you have this regular old family, can just be brought into space and is not surprised, doesn't need some big explanation. They know it exists. They know it's happening in the world around them. So, yeah, I suspect that the same thing will happen with the multiverse. And I think you bring up a good point about
it being beast. And of course, there's so many things and studio politics and all this stuff. But I was thinking, oh, why did they choose that character? Because there's probably more iconic Fox characters to choose from. And we know, of course, we're going to see Logan, Hugh Jackman in the next movie, but maybe it is because of the science aspect that they needed it to be. Hank, what do you think about that?
I think that makes sense, because if you think about it, like, you could get look at Days of Future Past, the X Men, the movie, you could use Rogue or Shadowcat or any telepath and start to play with a multiverse question, because if they shunt their mind into the past, if they're on the Astral plane or any of those things, but all of that is metaphysical. And so that is a little bit more like dreamwalking. And it feels like Wanda's done that, Dr. Strange has done that. We've seen that.
We haven't yet had someone analyze, from a scientific perspective, the multiverse. And so, yeah, I think you're right that he's a good character for that. He's also, I had not thought about this until you raised, like, why hem? He's such a good charaCter, too, if they go in this direction with him, because especially the last five years in comics, he's morally ambiguous. He's increasingly morally ambiguous. He's so driven by science that he makes really horrible
decisions. And so he could be an interesting character to have a part of this unfolding storyline, because, or if we saw. Some kind of age of apocalypse story and we know that there's dark Beast there as well, which is also timeline, multiversal, whatever you want to call it, that we've, of course, covered on this podcast. Before we move into, our third segment, what, I was going to.
Say one thing that is clear to me is whatever multiverse we are living in, Kelsey Grammar has done very well because we've had the return of Fraser and the return of career in 2023. It's true. Too bad he can't rebuild his politics, but he, has rebuilt his career. So the last thing on this stinger before we get to Loki and the future is just Maria being binary. I loved it. I loved it because what it was, to me, was a deep cut meant for X Men fans.
And that was perfect and beautiful to me because it was shocking, it was cool, it was a revelation. A binary, of course, in the comics is Carol Danvers. When her powers go binary, her powers get messed up, and she starts to have the powers of a star and is a being made of fire, et cetera, joins the X Men in space. So it really is, like, just the perfect
plot. And we saw in Multiverse of Madness, and we had alluded to in the Marvels that Maria could easily have become Captain Marvel, that it didn't have to be Carol, it could have been Maria. So it makes sense that in some other world, Maria became Captain Marvel and then became binary and joined, and they.
Could have easily called her Captain Marvel like they did in Multiverse of Madness, but they made that very deliberate choice to bring back this other character name, which was not a name, with a name I had heard, but I didn't really know the backstory, and I did not know that this was a character who was on The X Men that was also Captain Marvel. So as you were saying, that was definitely a deep cut comics fan kind of inclusion. Yeah. And it's a good way of putting
emotional stakes in it, because it's Maria. It's Monica's mother. And so it's interesting. It could have been Carol as binary, but it was Maria's binary, and that means something very different based on what happened. And so we'll get to the future in our final segment. Yes. So let's, start pondering some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted, diverted? Diverted?
And we are talking Loki, series two, with a special focus on the finale from November 2023, which was entitled Glorious. Purpose, and was out the day the Marvels premiered. That is just wild. But as you said, it wasn't supposed to be. Right, because all these dates were moving around and everything. But it is wild to me that last Thursday, that you could see both these things at the same time. That's why we're talking about them together. This series was mostly directed by
Justin Benson. And Aaron Morehead, mostly written by Eric Martin, executive produced by Kevin Feige, Brand Witterbaum, and a whole bunch of other people who are in Marvel Studios TV. Martin wrote for season one of Loki. Benson and Morehead have done a lot of Sci-Fi films that had similar themes and reality warping effects and visuals. They did work on Moon Knight and are going to be involved in the rebooted Daredevil. born again.
Redirected Daredevil, born again. So we are talking about the impact of the finale of Loki series two. Before we get into what happens in the finale of Loki series two and what we think it tells us about the future of the MCU's multiverse saga, I do want to mention that, of course, we don't know the chronology of these things. Sadly, this book was published and had to be sent to the printers some months
ago. So we don't know where, secret Invasion lies, though we can safely assume that might be added to the pile of Inhumans properties. We don't know, though, where the Marvels and Loki series two take place in terms of their relationship to each other. We have no idea which one comes first or after. And frankly, I don't think it matters that much. But it will matter in the future, and so we can assume both will have occurred before we get to
Deadpool next year, which we're going to talk about. But real quick on Loki series two, do you want to give an overall impression of the series before we talk about the content of the finale? Oh, sorry. I was falling asleep there thinking about Loki series two, but I thought there. Was a lot of most enjoyable, I'll say. I think the bones were there, but I think it was not doing what I really wanted from this series, which some of its
expectation, but it felt so prolonged. I think you and I were saying it would have made a really probably great two hour movie, not six hour series. And we were saying maybe the Marvels, you might disagree, but the Marvels might be the opposite. The Marvels might have made a really good six. Oh, I would have been fine with it being a six part series. It felt kind of rushed to me as an hour 40 movie where I think they could have definitely expanded
on and had more emotional beats. So they wish they had kind of switched places in that way. Yeah. So you and I weren't too into Loki series two. We were watching it kind of out of obligation and curiosity. The finale, however, I think we both liked what they did with the story, and I really liked. I saw the Marvels before I watched the series finale, and I had really liked how it made me think about the future of the multiverse saga.
So, again, spoilers. And if you're listening, we're assuming you don't care about spoilers if you didn't watch Loki. A very brief synopsis of a kind of complicated and overly simple, maybe a little too complicated. Yes, you and I were saying it's a little too complicated and a little too simple at the same time.
But ultimately, what happens is, because the multiverse is completely destabilized, and the choice is presented between something that will annihilate, everything and every timeline, or going back to compressing down to the sacred timeline and starting to cancel, Prune, destroy the other deviating timelines.
Now, Loki inserts himself as the god of stories, if you will, and takes on the power of the multiverse, stabilizes it gets to sit on his throne at the heart of the Multiverse, creates Idragasil, the world tree of the Nine realms that we've heard about in the MCU before. And essentially now the Multiverse is a stable series of branches that coil around each other like the trunks of a tree or the branches of a tree. It's no longer a single line with
deviating branches. nor is it a threaded mess that we're led to believe it was between series one finale and series two finale of Loki. So, m huge change, huge shift. And for me, I'll start because I did have the experience of seeing the Marvels. What the Loki finale did to me is it made me realize that the rest of the multiverse saga is going to now get to be actual stories just being told in other worlds. And m knowing that Secret wars is four years away, if that's when it happens,
there's an end date. And I appreciate both of those things. I like, one, that we're going to finally just get a, stabilized way of telling stories in different worlds. The story doesn't have to be about breaking into another world or an incursion or a destabilization or anything like that. We can just get stories in other worlds. And two, that this won't last forever. And I like that because, especially with the Fox X Men
franchise, I am ready for the MCU X Men. And while it's fun to see some of these folks, I appreciate knowing that we're not going to see any of them past Secret wars if I had to, yeah. I mean, you think it's going to be four years? I think we're not going to see those Fox people pass Deadpool, frankly. And that is possible because. Yeah. so what did you think of these two things together? The Loki change to the Multiverse and the Marvel Stinger and the future?
Well, I think what we saw from Loki is that it's removing, as you were saying, having a giant plot device to get us into the multi worlds. We were talking at the start of our conversation that Dr. Strange and magic had to constantly being brought in. And really, that whole first quarter of no way home is Peter asking for Dr. Strange to do this favor. And then the box explodes or whatever happens. So I
think you're just going to eliminate that now. And it also will free them up story wise, where we don't have to give 30 minutes of the movie or two episodes of a TV show to explain the mechanics. It's just going to be, the transparency between these worlds is going to be a lot different. I think Monica sacrificing herself at the end of the Marvels might be like the last time we're going to see one of those big occurrences until after Secret Wars.
Well, the only thing, I agree with everything, but at the end, I don't know if I agree, and here's why. Because what I'm excited about is I'm excited that Monica being in this other universe made me realize that would be a great way to get us to secret wars, is if you start to have people almost trapped in these other universes. Because even though we know Doctor Strange and Magic and America Chavez and her powers, and maybe some extreme cases, Miss Marvel's powers can transgress dimensional
barriers. It's still going to be hard. So even post Loki finale, it's not like you can just take a plane and decide you're going to go to Earth One, three three, or whatever it is, it still is going to be a challenge. And so I like this idea that people might get stuck, people might get trapped. Monica being there, she might want to be there because Maria's there. And then what happens if Carol and Kamala are trying to bring her back here?
I could just see that creating the potential for wars to battle each other, for there to be, like, conflict between worlds. With conflict being that someone broke the barrier, the conflict is more just like, wait, where do I want to end up? And where Should I end up? Yeah, I think that is where the emotional payoff will be. Is what if you could suddenly be with your dead parent again? Or is it actually your dead parent because it's not actually the same person?
That's why that final moment of the Marvel Singer is perfect when she says, who are you? And Monica's like, oh, shit. So, yeah, Monica's feeling all this emotion, and Maria's like, oh, I don't know who you are. I hope they go there, though, because I think they've stopped short of really getting into a lot of, like, we didn't get, like, her. Her experience of what if you were
separated from your family in this other universe? We didn't, in secret Invasion, get, what if you were married to somebody and you never saw their true, like, these are really interesting philosophical questions to actually bring into a superhero world. And the shows, and movies have stopped short of doing that. So I hope we could get into, oh, what if Tony Stark can be back in this
universe? But could that also mean that Thanos could win there if he didn't had, like, I think there's a lot of interesting quantum things and emotional things to discuss if they choose to go there. Yeah. Part of me even thinks what I've been starting to, I think, hope for, actually, because I think it's at least rumored that Marina Baccarin is in Deadpool Three. And part of me wonders if Deadpool is going to be trying to get to a world where she's still alive, because.
I think her dying was premature. I think it was fridging her. I think it was an awful decision. She's a comic book character that had so much potential. She's an actor that had so much potential, and both were so. But what was clear in both movies is what a love story they had. And so part of me wonders if that will be some of the plot is Ryan Reynolds or Deadpool trying to get to her, because that would do exactly what
you're saying. It would bring in that emotional selfish, which Deadpool certainly could be part of the storytelling that we lack when everyone is being a herO, which is, think. I think Monica is going to be, like, the third lead of that Deadpool movie. I don't know. I hope that will turn out to be true. But I just think incorporating her into that Stinger, I think she's really going to play
a big part in there. And I think the cool thing about, well, and I think the cool thing about having Deadpool, as well as a character is that he'll be able to break the fourth wall. Like, he can say, to tell Kelsey Grammar, like, aren't you Frazier? Or. I really want him to sing the Frazier theme song. Yes. Niles or something. yes, exactly. But we've already had him mention Hugh Jackman as an actor in one of the other
movies, and now he's going to be aside Hugh Jackman. So I think there's all that fourth wall breaking, which I think is also maybe what the multiverse stuff needs at this point. It needs, Some of that inflation, that air to be taken out of it. Yeah. Well, now that it's stabilized, I feel like that kind of thing can happen. And I just think, the potential is so great at this point. I'm excited again, and I've been someone who, for at least two years, at least since Wandavision, I've not been
excited for the MCU. And these two projects made me really like, okay, I can sort of start to see a sense. I think there's a lot of mistakes and loose threads that are still out there from this phase, but I think all of these pieces together make me really hopeful about what's coming. And I agree. I think Deadpool Three is going to do a lot to move that ahead and move it into new Directions.
Now, a couple of questions I'm thinking is, do you think that we will still have these more multiversal stories versus the more earthbound stories that might be coming in with, let's say, Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt and Captain America Four? Yeah, I think those two for sure are going to be Earthbound. No question there might be a stinger that leads us to something more.
Because I think it's not until we hit the Avengers, maybe Kang Dynasty and the Avengers Secret wars, that I think we're going to start to pull every character into this, just like we did for Infinity Warm and Endgame. So, yes, I think there will continue to be movies that tell stories that don't get wrapped up in this. And that's some of the fun part of stabilizing it right now,
is that that would be okay. We don't have to worry or wonder, like, Captain America Four can exist on the timeline and we don't have to think, like, wait, why aren't they addressing the multiversal incursion that's happening? It's like, well, m they don't need to. Everything is stabilized right now. Sam Wilson is not going to get involved in Monica Rambeau being on the other side of the.
Two more. Two more questions for you that I'm coming up. I want your opinion on is one, do you think now is the time after what I've been saying for a long time, which is that they'll use this multiverse to recast some of the iconic characters. Like, there's been a lot of the news of like that. Is Downey Jr. Coming back. But do you think? I don't know the answer to that.
I think it's so hard. I think this is where I get into, and I know this is like, everyone knows this and says this, but this is where I really just remind myself, like, we are in such uncharted waters. This is so unprecedented for a movie universe to exist like this, that I really can't see the future. I do not think we will end up in a place where there is like a young Tony Stark being played by someone else. I don't think we will end up there in the next
1020 years. But again, we're in such uncharted waters that who knows? I have no idea, but I don't think so. I don't think that's what Secret wars is going to give us. Could secret wars do something like bring us a Miles Morales Sure. I think there's a lot of ways Secret wars could shake up the world, but I do not think it's going to be through younger new actors playing roles that have already been established in the on screen 6116. I don't think so. Let's see. I'm not sure, because I think.
At this point it would rob the emotional hefT. We are still living in a world where I have multiple tattoos on my body from Endgame. People who watch movies like that is still the pinnacle moment. I still cry when Peter Parker reaperates and hugs. Like, it's making me teary thinking about it. Right? Like, there is so much emotional weight in that story and bringing someone back permanently takes away from that. There could be a temporary, they could.
Go to a world where there is like a young Tony Stark and they deal with that. And that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But I think if we get to a new prime universe post Secret wars, like has happened in the comics from the 2015, I don't think it's going to be with a bunch of new versions of people we've already met. And my last question for you, my last pondering possibilities question for you, we were talking about this this morning is, do you think so? Of course,
Marvel is owned by Disney. Disney also owns Star Wars. They have, of course, the Disney properties as well. Do you think we'd ever see a world where we are mixing bringing in other properties? Like, do you think there's ever a world where suddenly in one of these outer space journeys through the multiverse. We're in Star wars or Wakanda, and there's Simba talking. I don't know. I think there's only two ways it happens. One, for comedic effect.
So in Deadpool, three, they're traveling to a bunch of different worlds and they end up in a world with, I don't know, even Elliot joked when we were talking to him, the Simpsons. Sure. So that I could see. So one, for comedic effect, the only other way is a little bit more of what I'd want to see. And I don't know if it will happen. I do not think it will happen in the course of an ongoing story because I think we live in a world
where even within a company. So, yes, I understand Disney owning Fox means they own the world of alien. They own the world of Planet of the Apes, they own the world of Predator. But I don't think they own Star Wars. I don't think they're going to want to mix those things up. Even in the comics, they don't mix them up like, alien and Predator are under different imprints. They keep them separate. They're not part of the six one six. And here's my comic inspired,
answer right now. For example, there's a little miniseries of Predator versus Wolverine. Sure, why not? Who cares? So that would be if it were to happen or I'd actually kind of like it to happen. Like do a one movie standalone. It's not a part of the saga. It's a use of the multiverse where, yeah, Wolverine ends up in the Predator universe and has to fight the Predator. Like, sure, that's fine with me, but I don't think it'll be part of a larger story. It certainly won't be a
permanent status quo. And, yeah, I think there's some fun potential. What would you like to see if there was, like, one fun standalone movie that mixed worlds? Well, it's funny, I hadn't really thought of Predator and alien because they're not as famous as Star wars, but they actually could lend themselves pretty well to something like, well, alien. And then you also introduce the brood or in Secret Wars. Of course, the Predator would be a natural inclusion person to thing to include there as
well. I think the other thing that they could play around with is some of the actors who have been cast as multiple things. Natalie Portman is in Star wars universe and the MCU, Harrison Ford is now going to be in both universes. So there's other actors that they have also worked with which I think would fall more into the jokey world of it. But it's interesting, the Star wars universe, as best as I know, and there's plenty of people that know more about Star wars than me, but it
does exist in a galaxy far, far away, Earth. And things have never come into it, as far as I know. But. So it would be interesting to have an Earth character like Starlord, for example. I was going to say the next Guardians movie. They end up on whatever the planet all the Ewoks are on. Oh, that would be, yeah, totally. Yes. I mean, I could totally see that if they bring in, Taika to direct that movie with Ewoks or something like that.
Yeah. But again, I think it would have to be like a one shot deal. Oh, totally. Or even a special. These worlds don't overlap. Yeah, like how we had the Kevin Bacon Holiday special or something like that. I think that would be really special. Star Wars Holiday special. But that would be so I could totally see that. And you have Groot and Chewbacca. Like, neither of them are speaking a language that we understand. And Nebula or Mantis reacting to the. Can. I can totally see that, actually.
So that would totally be maybe the one that they would go with. Yeah. Play off that iconic holiday special. Well, if it happens, hopefully we'll get credit for it. All right, well, we're excited for the future, and we're excited to hear what you think about the future, so please find us, let us know because that is a wrap. Dear Watchers, thank you for listening. I have been Guido from Earth Eight, three eight, or whatever Earth I said. I was from, and I have been several, inches taller.
Rob, the reading list this week is watching list, and you can find it in the show notes. And again, find us on social media at Dear Watchers, all social media. And we'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse. In the words of UAtu, keep pondering the possibilities.