I just woke up from a horrible nightmare. I was in this big, creepy factory, and there was this scary little man that came up to me and said, welcome to Dear Watchers, an Omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse where we are. Traveling through the very long intros that Rob has and the stories and worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me, Guido. Back, Guido. I'll be back, Guido.
And some people call me the Space Man. Some people call me the gangster of love. Some people call me Maurice. But you can just call me Rob. I don't know what that is. That's the Joker song by the Steve Miller Band. Thrilling. I'm, curious how many of our listeners will know that reference. Everyone will know that reference. No, I think people are more like me than like you, but we'll see. Get into our references, Guido. What's going on in our little section of the Multiverse?
Last week was a fantastic episode with our guest, Jason Ayers. So if you skipped last week or if this is your first time listening, go back and listen. We revisited the Age of Apocalypse with our longtime fan, longtime patron, supporter, longtime friend, Jason Ayers. And you should hear it. Yes, we got to see that he is your biggest rival for collecting all of the X Men books. Yes. And with his amount of experience in the WWE Ring, I guess I should be scared of him,
but I'm not. Like we said, we're a team up, not a supervillain arch nemesis situation like we have today. And our summer giveaways summer is not yet over, though it feels like it, because Labor Day has passed. Not here in New York City. It's 90 something degrees, very hot. So we do have this one final giveaway, and you'll have to listen if today is the day. And the last thing is, we're about a month from New York, Comic Con, and I just wanted to say that because it's very exciting.
I just got a notification that my rat plush, my pizza rat plush has shipped. Oh, well, you hadn't gotten your badge yet, so let's hope they ship together. Otherwise, you're going to be sitting home with the plush while I'm at Comic Con. Well, and while you are at Comic Con, I will tell us where our journey is today. We have three sections of our multiversal story, origins of the Story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibilities. So thank you for joining us today.
And remember, you can leave a review wherever you're listening. And if you want to be a supporter like Jason Ayers is, go to our coffee at, Deerwatchers.com and click Join. And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode 114, and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travel to today's alternate universe.
And today, we emerge from our VAT of noxious chemicals to find out the answer to the question, what if Joker accidentally killed Batman and ended up working at Wayne Enterprises? So we are talking night terrors. This is our first time talking about the very recent 2023 DC Comics event. Let's call it Earth KT. and it's oddly like Age of Apocalypse, which I was thinking as I was reading it. And we've been covering AOA for a while. So night terrors the DC
Comics event. I'll give you a very brief background before we dig in because it's not super important, though. I loved this event and I think a lot of people who read it did too. People who didn't read it were upset that it was happening because it suspended the regular titles, just like AOA. So all of DC Publishing paused, these renumbered new titles started, and the event spans nearly 50 issues, although the vast majority of it
are standalone. I'll describe it in a moment. It was probably, in part, a, chance to give editorial teams and creative teams on the core books a chance to get ahead of deadlines. I wonder if it was even timed to San Diego Comic Con. It used to be years ago that there was always something in the summer. This is why Marvel started Assistant Editors Month, because everyone was going to San Diego Comic Con and they wouldn't be able to reach their deadlines during that time.
So they always had something happening. And I wonder if that was part of this. But regardless, this was a great event. And what it was was spearheaded by Joshua Williamson and Howard Porter. So art style really influenced by Porter's work on the core book, which is a four issue miniseries, writing and architecture by Williamson. The series sees a new character, Insomnia, put the whole world to sleep while he searches for the Nightmare Stone,
which is hidden in someone's dreams. So each two issue miniseries is basically a standalone horror series taking place in a hero or villain's nightmare. Some are more connected to the core title and the ongoing story, but most are pretty standalone that can be really quite fun. And I loved this event and was excited that we decided to choose one of the Nightmares as a multiverse. Well, I haven't read this event other than the two issues
that we're going to discuss. But I think I would like reading more of this because for me, reading these ongoing titles is so daunting. So the idea to just dive in and get a nice two issue miniseries, that's very appealing. Yeah, that's why I think it's such a well constructed, accessible event, even though 47 issues sounds overwhelming. It's like you actually could skip the main title. Although I actually think the framing story with the Nightmare Stone is really good,
really interesting stuff. There is actually a big, high stakes thing that happens at the end that I won't spoil because it is very recent within the matter of the last few weeks that this happened. But a major character dies. So it's a great event. I think it's a really well done event. But we are not here to talk so much about Night Terrors. We are to talk about a terrifying character. Though it is the Joker character who I think we've talked a little bit about. I don't know, not too
much. I'm trying to think on the show. For being I don't think he's in the else worlds that we've covered. It's interesting. He's not in any of the Batman else worlds that we have covered so far. So I don't know that we've even. talked about some one bad days. But of course Joker is not in those because it's kind of inspired by Joker. So yeah, we've not really covered him. But Guido, what is your background with the CPOC, the clown prince of Crime?
Well, I think like every other person in the world, everyone knows who the Joker is. The who? Wait, who are we covering? Joker, I'd venture a guess. He's got to be the most famous supervillain. I can't imagine there's a villain more famous even in the era of like a Thanos or something. I still think Joker is probably the most recognizable, most well known villain. And so I think like a little more than most people. As a comic fan,
I've read a lot of Joker. I've never been a huge Batman fan, but I obviously read Death of the Family as it was coming out. Major event as a child. So, I've read some of the major seminal stories. Read, some of the more modern stuff like Death in the Family, or of the Family, whichever is what's the more recent one. Read some of the big Joker storylines from James Tinian and the more recent runs. But I don't read Joker's Solo title. There is one going on right now which we'll talk
briefly about. So I'm just not a huge fan. And then I've seen every multimedia version like you have, like most people have. So everything from Batman 66 through the Animated Series and all the different movie iterations. And of course what we will talk about the version that's in the Harley Quinn Animated Series. So I'd say I know the Joker pretty well, but I'm not an expert on his origin, his retconned origin that's been modified a lot over the years or anything like that.
And what about for you? My first joker was definitely Caesar Romero in Batman 66. Queer Cuban actor sounds for sound like anyone you know? Definitely. He was my first Joker and then Jack in the Batman 89 movie. That was the first really the only movie. My one grandparents had, on VHS. So I coveted that VHS with that sleek cover. And I was always such a huge Jack Nicholson fan from a was really those two were really my jokers. And then, of course, Heath ledger. I
never read him too much in the comics. And there's some really big Joker events in the comics, like Killing Joke that I hate to say I have never read. And I always gravitated towards the Riddler and towards the Penguin when I was actually reading the actual comic book iterations. So I'm not as familiar with some of the Joker in the comics. And then to your mean, we just had the Batman reintroduced on screen and they couldn't even get through one movie without basically introducing the Joker.
Okay, we have so many Jokers. It really is if you have Batman, I guess they feel like you need to have the Joker. Oh, and of course, the only version of Joker I haven't seen is his eponymous solo movie, which I refuse to see. But you did see. I have seen that movie. And, it's okay. And you watch Kings of Comedy instead. And I don't think I'm going to end up seeing Harley Lady Gaga, but we'll see when that comes out eventually. So onward and let us laugh all.
The way to our first segment origins of the Story. Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. And first up, we're going back to almost the beginning of Batman. It's the, Batman number one from DC Comics from March 1940. This is written by Bill Finger. Penciled by Bob Kane. Inked by Jerry Robinson. Lettered by Jerry Robinson.
And the editor is Whitney Ellsworth. But before we get into Joker, since it's our first time focusing on the clown prince of crime, let's read a great intro from his 75 year anniversary hardcover collection from back in 2014. Much like the Joker's fictional origins, the origin of the character itself is something of a mystery. We know that in 1940, artists Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson, as well as writer Bill Finger were creating the first issue of Batman and needed to find a new opponent for
their vigilante. Previously, Batman and Robin battled mad scientists and gang leaders. But thus far, none were a match for our hero. Then a mysterious criminal called the Joker entered the scene. Pale and grimacing, with green hair and a purple
suit. The clown prince's appearance was a combination of several influences a Coney Island amusement park emblem that resembled the smiling criminal a playing card given to Bob Cain by Jerry Robinson and most notably, the makeup worn by actor Conrad WEIT in the 1928 silent film adaptation of Victor Hugo's The Man Who Laughs. After his successful first appearance, the Joker would soon become a recurring enemy. Topping a list of criminals Batman and Robin faced. The first years of the Joker
showed a murderer without remorse. Here, readers saw the first traces of the clown's gigantic ego as well as his deadly gas acting on his victim's facial muscles, freezing their mouths in a horrible grin. But after his first dozen appearances, the Joker underwent a personality change. He became, instead a flamboyant bank robber with an original gimmick for each crime wave. The Joker's last murder for several years took place in 1942, wherein the clown bumped off
several of the city's comedians. Symbolically, his next appearance showed him surviving the electric chair. In a way, he was reborn with a new personality and would not return to his murderous ways for several decades. And of course, the mystery they're referring to in this intro is the credit controversy always around Bob Kane and anything Bob Kane has touched. So there's lots of
stories online. Who knows what's true about whether Jerry Robinson had first drawn a sketch of a Joker card or whether Bill Finger had come up with the concept. And then Jerry Robinson drew this design and what, if any, role Bob Kane played in any of this at any point. So, who knows? But the Joker was surely created by these three people, without a doubt. And it is remarkable, just on his appearance, how little he has
changed. I know the Joker. There's always some variation on his look that has kind of come over time. But the fundamentals of his look the green hair, the red lips, the white face, the purple suit, and even that kind of slender, creepy, Conrad Vite like build, that's all there from this very first issue in 1940. Yeah, he has been quite consistent, I guess. He's just such a good design.
And of course, whoever the colorist is who's not even credited I don't know if they were making any of these decisions, but that would be an important element of this because his coloring is not what a clown would have looked like. So it was an original choice. I don't think clowns were ever known for having green hair. I could be wrong, but his whole look is tied together in his coloring for sure. And the other thing that we mentioned in that introduction there is how
murderous he is. And that, I think, was one of the things I was the most surprised about reading this issue from 1940. He's just killing people. And the first person he kills with the they don't call it the smilex, but with the Joker gas or whatever it is, he's left with the creepy grin and he's laughing and as he's dying, and then he's a corpse with that grin. It's pretty graphic for a comic from 1940 that was probably pretty much exclusively read by children at the time.
Well, I don't know if that's true, that it was only children, but yeah, it is surprising. I was curious why they had to have him kill because his gas would still work in later years when he just has people frozen in smile and they have to get checked into Arkham. I, was curious why they didn't do that. But I guess it was probably just more along the lines of the pulp stories that were coming out at the time. And so it didn't seem that big a deal. And as we learned in that intro, he
continued to kill for a few years. And even, well, pre Code, though, DC clearly realized, let's stop having him kill. I guess they at that point realized they wanted to reuse him over and over and over again. So they needed to have him be a little bit more sympathetic. And then, of course, he continues killing today. And other than the cast, he just also just shoots a bunch of people, which is interesting.
And the other reference I thought going way into his future is he clubs Robin over the head. Yeah, I saw that too, and was curious if Death of the Family had took inspiration from that because he has him tied up, in fact, and clubs him. So I think for sure that's one of the things I noticed. Not just Joker's design, as you were mentioning, but little things like that Robin or just some of the other moments with him, the hat that
he wears. There's so much in this that I'm like, whoa, I've seen those elements being used in the movies, in modern day comics, in versions of the Joker right now in the story we read in Night Terrors. Like, there's so much that just has remained consistent about this character. Remarkably so.
The Jack Nicholson design, especially. I would be surprised if they did not go back to this very first appearance for reference, especially with the hat that you just mentioned, which I just think of Jack in that hat. Yeah, I will say, reading this and then we were watching some of the different DC documentaries that have been made over the years, like the supervillain one and the recent superpowered one. reading this, he's kooky, like, he's dressed as a knight in one scene
when he decides he's going to kill people. It made me dislike even more. This is going to be controversial, but Heath Ledger's version, which is often held up as, like, the performance of Joker. But I'm like, I don't think that was fun enough for me. I think the Joker is really fun. And I appreciated reading this issue because it just got me back into the comic bookie Joker. I'm going to assume the Joaquin Phoenix Joker is not very fun either, which
is why I'm not seeing it. but reading this, as dark as he is, as murderous as he is, like, he is fun. And so I really enjoyed this. I think it was my first time reading it. Well, I'd push back a bit in that I think there's fun the moment where he dresses up in a suit of armor in order to basically then kill someone. That is a fun moment. But he's not funny. No, he's not really funny. But I don't think any comics in 1940, had, I guess, joke or.
If there were, they probably wouldn't be funny. But yeah, he doesn't actually really there's, nothing really that makes him a Joker or a clown here other than his look that is not doing there's no gimmicks, as we saw in the introduction. Those are kind of introduced later. But, yeah, he doesn't have those one liners that we've then come to know the character for. No, though he does have the sign of the Joker, a playing card that he leaves behind with
his mark. And otherwise, the last reference that I want to mention, which won't mean anything unless you've read Night Terrors that we're going to get into is the stuff at the end with the building that Joker is going to fall off the building and Batman catches him. And that's a really important point. And our listeners will find out why when we summarize Night Terrors. So I'm curious if that's a reference that Matt Rosenberg is making.
Even the end of the first Batman movie, too, takes place on the top of a building with Joker falling off. So it always goes back to falling into or over something. Well, this first issue clearly has been mined endlessly for inspiration and it was really fun to see. Well, why don't we fall to sleep ha. and explore the multiversity. I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?
And today we are asking the question, what if Joker accidentally killed Batman and ended up working at Wayne Enterprises? This is from Night Terrors with a K. The Joker issues number one to two from DC Comics cover dated September and October 2023. And these are written by Matthew Rosenberg. Penciled by Stefano Raphaeli, who also does the inks. Colored by Romulo Fahardo Jr. Lettered by Tom Napolitano and edited by Ben Abernathy. And a quick summary. So spoiler alert because
these are very recent issues. So we are spoiling everything in Night Terrors, the Joker one and two. We will not spoil the rest of Night Terrors for you, but we will spoil Night Terrors Joker one and two. So if you want to go read it, go read it, come back. But if you don't or don't care about spoilers, here's your summary. So open on Batman and the Joker in confrontation on a Roof. And Batman slips and falls to his death. In
a really funny moment, I think. Joker and his goons decide to disband and try to keep his death a secret. But the Joker falls into a depression and decides to get a job at Wayne Enterprises. We have many moments of the office or office space style humor. Joker kills his boss in a microwave but ends up quite appreciated and respected at the company. He denies his old crime goons and heads home, where we find out that the Batman corpse has been rotting
away in his closet. In the second issue, we discover that Joker has, in fact, been sleepwalking at night as the Batman and does not realize it. And in a very Rorschach inspired, deranged, psychopath style hero, joker cracks jokes and heads as the Batman, scaring other villains, such as Mr. Freeze, into trying to go into hiding in plain sight in the corporate world. So he applies for a job with the Joker. In a hilarious scene, Joker and the Bruce Wayne ultimately end up having
dinner, because Bruce is still alive. We can explain that in a moment to talk about balance and the need for Batman. And we get a bit of Joker psychology here. And as he cries out that, we need Batman, we need Batman, we need Batman, he wakes up from his nightmare, and this amazing little two series two issue series ends. So you, said already that you enjoyed this, and it's your first entry into Night Terrors, but start with your general impressions.
My general impressions was that it's funny that we started this with, a what if question, which we do on all of our episodes. But this really felt like, a what if story to me. It really felt like, what if the Joker had accidentally killed Batman? And everything kind of going from there. It wasn't just, oh, a different an alternate reality Joker. It was really all centered on that classic what if moment, which, of course, for this podcast, I just loved. Yeah, I agree. And it obviously
has a great sense of humor while doing it. But there's also a depth in it that Rosenberg because Rosenberg is writing the ongoing Joker series right now, which neither of us read, so don't know if this is the tone at all. I'm going to assume it is. This is a very Matthew Rosenberg tone, and he is a writer that I like, but he does such a good job of taking that question, having a lot of fun with it. You can see from the COVID of the first issue
what you're in for. He's sitting at the desk board at the call center for Wayne Enterprises with the world's best employee mug, so you know what you're in for. But he also has a lot to say about these two characters and how they're bound up together and why the Joker would need Batman, which is a story that feels almost as old as the character himself. It feels like so many versions of the Joker are about how he almost loves Batman. They love each other.
They have a symbiosis. They need each other in so many ways. And this was a fun way of playing with that, where you get the reveal. You keep hearing the Batman is still alive and you don't understand it. And then you get the reveal that Joker has been going out at night and not even realizing that he is fulfilling Batman's mission for him. Even that change in mythology. In Batman 89, you have where the Joker killed Batman's parents but you have that classic exchange where the
Joker says, well, you made me, but I made you. So who made each other first kind of thing. So even there, it's always kind of this symbiosis relationship, as you said. Yeah. And then you like things with humor. Did you appreciate the humor in this? Yes, I did, because it's got so much satire in it. I saw so many references in this. And on the humor side, certainly, Office Space is just such a
big reference there. There's this great scene where he's talking to one of his coworkers who's very upbeat kind of coworker. And he's trying to figure out what they even do at Wayne Enterprises. And it's this labyrinthian thing of, oh, they approve the approvals. And it's very much that awesome. Yeah. It reminded me of like clockwatchers. Any of those feels like 90s movies that were commenting on corporate culture and
cubicle culture. Totally. Because it's in the break room, of course, that he has this confrontation with his boss who's a jerk, and he kills him with the microwave. So all of that is very funny. And I like that. Then he's dressed in armor, like ready to blow the whole place up. And his new boss thinks that's just funny and doesn't take him seriously. So there's a lot of good beats in his stepping into corporate culture. Which,
of course, is impossible to not. Think of the way the Harley Quinn animated series deals with the Joker because in that there is the Joker trying to live the reformed life. And he first has amnesia for a while, but he's like this family man suburban dad. So this felt remarkably similar. I wouldn't be surprised if Rosenberg was a little inspired by that depiction.
Yeah. And even there where that Joker then goes into politics and here he's kind of going into corporate America you both see Joker dealing with the kind of inane things that normal people have to deal with. And part of him is still the homicidal maniac but part of him is a little reformed at the same time. So I definitely saw that
connection there. And another big reference I saw on the horror side, I was just reminded of Psycho, too, the idea of having this corpse in your house that you also take on its personality. Very Norman Bates there. That's true. Funny. I was even thinking that Matt Rosenberg's mother wrote this amazing well, I think it's amazing horror movie from the 1980s called Maniac where the title character is killing people and
keeping their corpses in his basement. And then it's kind of seeing them and talking to them and he's having nightmares of them. I don't even know if it's a reference or just in his blood, but it's there too. Could be either. For I mean, the reveal wasn't really a big reveal to me, I kind of figured that he's. The one out going to be Batman. I kind of figured that. But I think it's still effective even if it's not a surprise. Do you think the same thing or was it a surprise to you?
It was a surprise to me. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention the first time I read it. This is my second time reading it, so I knew at this point. But I do remember it being a surprise in part, I think because of what we were saying about Bruce Wayne. Bruce is alive. And of course that makes sense because Joker doesn't know bruce and Batman are the same. This is Joker's nightmare. Why is Bruce here in Joker's nightmare? Like he's not going to know bruce dies when Batman
dies. But I think because Bruce is alive, I wasn't totally sure. I thought maybe it was going to end up being like a zombie Bruce or Batman or something. So it was a surprise to me that Joker was the one going out at night, which is really fun. So I think it's a really great two issue Joker story that everyone should read. I think while I love Night Terrorists in every way and I recommend it highly, I wonder if it's sort of people won't pick
this up because they think they have to read something bigger. And that's a shame because like the one bad Days that we've talked about, a few of them on previous episodes, the Riddler and Clayface ones, they are just meant to be standalone. They are meant to be a story you can peel off and enjoy. As a fan of the Joker or a fan of horror and comedy or a fan of what's happening in Night Terrors, like it's meant to work on a few levels.
Yeah, I definitely think I'm sure we'll revisit some other issues for the podcast and I would read some on my own because I'm exactly into that camp. I would go, oh my gosh, I do not want to read a 50 page 50 issue, 50 issue series for something I'm not even invested in the main series for. But I would totally read two issue horror comedy series. Like that is totally right up my alley. So before we move on, the question is this is a multiverse. Even though it's a nightmare
verse, it's a multiverse. Do you want to go back to Joker's nightmare verse? Are there more stories to be told in Joker's nightmare verse? I think there know the idea of an ongoing Joker series is also not really appealing to me because I think he's probably a character for me that works better in small doses. Even though James Tinian and Matt Rosenberger are great writers. But this is the kind of Joker, the subversion and the satire of this corporate world that I definitely do think
I would go back and read. I think there's more ways of exploring. Oh, what if we put Joker into the world that most of us inhabit every day? Would you want to go back and read this as well or keep continuing in this world? Yeah, and I think that there must be something compelling about that, because, again, let's assume
maybe Rosenberg was not influenced by Harley Quinn. And there's something about both stories where people think, oh, let's take this deranged, homicidal, lunatic clown and stick them in a mundane existence that the rest of us have and see what know. The other thing that it reminds me of was the Mojo TV series as well. Not the Mojo TV series. I was like, what are you talking about?
Modoc TV series? The Modoc TV series on Hulu, where they put Modoc, who's also this homicidal maniac, but put him into this suburban lifestyle. And he's still a little crazy, but he's also now a dad. So, yeah, there's something about seeing these characters, especially the characters that are just kooky and insane, you wouldn't want to see, I don't know, Catwoman, because she's more well adjusted, I think, into this. World and more three dimensional, three dimensional
Joker. And, like, these, are caricature villains. even though Joker's persisted for so long, and there might be some people who love his backstory or whatever it is, I think that he's still a caricature. And that's why it works to then do a fish out of water story, if you will. So I think it's really fun, and people should check it out. Well, let's punch our time clock before we go into overtime and head into pondering. Possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Diverted.
Diverted. So what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities? Well, we can just chat Joker overall, but here's the really fun coincidence. Just this week that we're recording the Kadansha, co published DC mangas came out, and we read chapter one of Joker because it is a perfect fit here.
It really is doing the same thing Rosenberg's doing in a totally different way with a totally different concept, but it's telling the same kind of warped, twisted, dark comedy story that has to do with Batman and Joker's relationship and connection to each other. So we'll use that as a springboard and then just talk about the future of Joker and what we want to see. Yeah. So that's joker one. Operation Joker, volume one, chapter one from Kandasha and DC
comics, released in July 2023. But we just got it here in the States in September 2023. Well, and it's actually a little older in Japan, but the translation is new, the English translation. So it's written by Satoshi Miyagawa. Penciled by Kisuki Gutau inks also by Kasuki Gato. Letters by Wes Abbot. It's. Edited by Mitsuhiro Muramatsu and Andrew Marino. And the issue starts with the Joker changing the diaper of a baby before we flashback to the Joker fighting Batman.
Above a VAT of chemicals and spoiler warning for a brand new comic. Oh, yes, that's true. Spoiler abound. But then the Joker pressures Batman to just kill him by dropping him into the chemicals. Batman, of course, refuses. But when the Joker starts to fall, batman accidentally tumbles into the chemicals instead. Joker thinks Batman has melted away, but in fact, he has turned into a baby that Joker adopts and vows to raise with an eye towards justice.
So there's so many things. Literally, just this morning, as we were preparing to record, I was like, oh, let me read the first chapter of this. And was like, whoa. There's the accidental misstep, the accidental death. There's the Joker keeping some secret Batman version in his care and keep. There's the relationship between so and then there's the fish out of water. This not being Joker in corporate culture, this being Joker
as parenting a baby. Because of course, he's like, changing the diapers and he's using a knife, but then he gets the knife away so the baby doesn't get cut. So it was like, I was like, oh, my gosh. This comic is really the same story. And there's no way it was influenced. Now, it actually might be old enough that if Rosenberg read the Japanese version, he might have been influenced by this because I think it's two years old or so. But it is just
so fun to read as a companion. And I can't wait to finish this series. How about you? Yeah, I thought it was so much I was totally unlike the surprise that Joker's dressing up like Batman in the Night Terrors. I totally had no idea that it was going to be Batman as a. Baby, probably because it's just so absurd and makes no sense. But that's okay. Yeah. And I love in general, that kind of roundabout storytelling where we start with this image of Joker and
a baby and like, okay, how are we going to get there? And get there through it actually being Batman? And now well, to the point that we were talking about with Night Terrors and that symbiosis relationship, joker knows, like, well, now that Batman's gone, who am I as a person? And he knows now I have to not raise this baby as a villain. I have to raise this baby to become Batman because that is how I the Joker. The next generation of villains will continue to function. I need that.
Yeah. Yeah. So that's why, like, the Rosenberg, it's asking these big questions about these iconic characters and their relationship to each other, but doing it through just hilarious comedy fun comic book. Yeah. And I think maybe it needs to be a character like the Joker where he can't really, despite the, Tod Phillips movie, can't really be turned into an antihero. We shouldn't be.
Shouldn't be because he is just this murderer. You can do that with Lex Luthor, maybe, and explore some of the dynamics there, of course, like Catwoman and all these other characters. But Joker just he is this murderous psychopath. So to subvert the character and to really talk about that dynamic between the two of them, then you have to introduce, I think, these other elements.
Well, I think what both of these authors are doing, miyagawa and Rosenberg and I'm sure countless others over the years, are they're deriving sympathy for Batman, for Joker through his relationship to Batman? Which is the only, I think, way that you can construct him as having any sympathy is you can be like, oh, I sort of get that. I get that. What am I without you? Question.
But you can't have sympathy with Joker because, oh, he had such a terrible life, or, oh, he was so traumatized, or, oh, whatever other stories people have tried to tell. I don't think that's an interesting depiction of the character. I think it takes away from some of the fun it takes away from some of the extremism
with him. But I think getting sympathy from what he feels about Batman is one cool, way, fun way, and one, really clearly generative, creative way of getting you to feel something about the character but not feel like, why do I like this megalomaniacal homicidal maniac? Yeah, and maybe it's true with the Riddler too, but so many of the other Batman villains catwoman, Poison Ivy, Freeze, Penguin, Razal, ah, Ghul like you either you can feel for them more as characters.
Maybe they were like the Penguin, they were beaten up as kids. Or Raz al Ghul, who he actually wants to save the world but is doing it through this distorted way. So those characters, you can kind of see Freeze with his background, with his wife, but the Joker is just like, no, as you're saying, you need to explore it through other means because there's not that fundamental thing. You have to almost see it through the prism of Batman rather than through the character itself.
Yeah, because what we've been saying and why that intro was important is what Joker's known for is killing. And so the only way that you could get the character's motivation would be to have a character that you start to understand their motivation for just repeatedly killing. And I think that's a
real hard reach. Which is not to say that people who kill aren't worth understanding, but that's in a reality context, in an arch, nemesis, superhero way, I don't want to start to process my feelings about this character and why he decided to take a life. so that's why I think it's easier to develop this character in this. Way than that way. And is there too much Joker for you? We're getting this second. I mean, you haven't seen the first Tom Phillips movie, but there's
that. As we were saying, he was introduced a soft introduction in the Batman, though I do wonder. I'd say there's a possibility that that stigma meant nothing at the end of the Batman, that it was maybe an attempt to develop some universe that they're not going to actually do. I could be wrong, but it really felt pinned on. And even Barry Keoghan, I feel like, didn't do a ton of press about. Like no one seemed to talk a lot about it.
I'm curious if it will amount to anything, but I think I don't care that there's a lot of Joker I'll pick and choose. Obviously, I'm not choosing the Todd Phillips joker, but I love the Harley Quinn joker. That that's in The Animated Series. I wouldn't mind if someone tries to create him on screen again, if it has ah, elements I like, which would be pieces like these or like that fun kooky over the top, but not damping down the fact that he's just a psychomaniac either.
Yeah. So bring back Jared Leto. That's what you're saying, right? Face tatoos and the grill and. Everything. I think that was a close performance. I think what he didn't do, I think it might have been performance and definitely more writing in the movies that he appeared in is there was not a lot of fun there. No, but, also, that movie was hacked to death. Yeah. So that's why I don't maybe there. Was more fun on screen that we didn't get to see.
Yeah. But no, I would not mind more Jokers existing because, again, I get to pick and choose. I don't need a prime Joker. I will say after this, though, I am going to check out Rosenberg's Joker title and see if it tonally is like this, even though it takes place in the DC prime Earth. I'm curious if it feels like this little two issue fun story that he did, too. Yeah. So that is a
wrap, dear Watchers. And while we're getting very close to the end of summer, we are still not giving you our last giveaway this week of all time. It is. But, if you want to know more about our giveaways because you haven't been listening, go back and listen to episode maybe 100, I think, where we announced it. And we've been doing giveaways all summer. And we have one final bundle of signed books that will be coming before summer officially ends. So for those of you using an.
Agricultural calendar, get out your poor Richard Zolman act then. We're waiting for the fall solstice. It's not a solstice in the fall. What is it? Equinox, I don't know. The autumn equinox. Yeah, sure. All right. So at some point between now and then, we will have it for you. thank you for listening, dear Watchers. I have been Batgito and I have been Rob, and the reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on all social media at dear watchers and leave a.
Review wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse. In the meantime, in the words of. Uwatu, this town needs.