[Rob]: welcome to deer watchers a comic book omni verse podcast where we do a deep dive [Rob]: into the multiverse [Guido]: we were traveling through the storylines before and after that inspired or took [Guido]: inspiration from this week's alternate universe [Guido]: and your oats your watchers on this journey are me guido [Rob]: and me rob the last man [Guido]: i mean not technically but alright fine [Rob]: it just lend itself to it very easily right i hope i'm not as annoying as him
[Rob]: though [Guido]: yeah well you'd have to compare that to how annoying adam the actual kind of last [Guido]: man is on the story that we read but we'll get into that first what's new [Guido]: so last week we posted our [Guido]: first commissioned art and that was really exciting so if you're listening and [Guido]: haven't seen that on twitter please head over to our twitter at deer watchers we [Guido]: have more art to come [Rob]: should we say what it is for [Guido]: yeah
[Rob]: for people or should they experience it oh okay yeah it is the golden girls as the [Rob]: avengers [Guido]: yes [Rob]: and we have blanche as wasp we have dorothy as [Guido]: well i'll let that be a reveal [Rob]: iron man we have [Rob]: okay oh [Guido]: so [Rob]: okay well there's only two left so [Guido]: that uh that came up in episode twenty nine we were discussing that because wasp [Guido]: made us think a little bit of blanche and happily we threw ten cent takes found a
[Guido]: great artist who made it come to life so you can find all that information on [Guido]: twitter and we have more art coming soon we're really excited about other things [Guido]: that we've talked about wishing we could see [Guido]: and so we're gonna keep the fan art coming with these great commissions with [Guido]: things that come up for us so we're really excited and we also just got some new [Guido]: postcards with our new logo and design so if [Rob]: he
[Guido]: anyone's really excited and wants us to mail them a postcard send us a message on [Guido]: twitter or email us podcast at dear watchers dot com and we'll get you one and [Guido]: lots more of art to come so that's something new [Rob]: yes and then we had a great episode last week with our atlas heroes as well so i [Rob]: hope everyone checks that out in all of our previous episodes but if you are [Rob]: joining us for the first time well after a quick summary of [Guido]: thursday
[Rob]: our alternate earth we have origins of the story covering what may have inspired [Rob]: this other reality exploring multiversity diving deeper into the alternate [Rob]: universe and finally pondering possibilities examining the impact of this visit to [Rob]: the multiverse and what's followed or our hopes for the future [Guido]: but before we get into those sections let's talk about else worlds because this is [Guido]: our first [Guido]: else world's episode which of course for those who
[Rob]: yes [Guido]: are not familiar is the dc comics imprint and i'll give you a lot more background [Guido]: in a moment but rob what was your experience with else worlds [Rob]: and of course this would also be our first d c episode really we did a our malcolm [Guido]: well that's true other than the amalgam we read some dc titles through the amalgam [Rob]: episode but this is our true first dc [Guido]: work but yes true so what's your background with else worlds
[Rob]: very very little i believe the only else world i have read was gotham by gaslights [Rob]: which [Guido]: hm [Rob]: i believe is the first else world story and i'm big [Guido]: you'll find out if that's true in a moment [Rob]: jack the ripper fan and everything like well not a fan of jack the ripper but of [Rob]: the myth mithos so i [Guido]: choose your words carefully [Rob]: read that yeah not i'm not a big fan of hi big fan of his work but yes i read that
[Rob]: issue and then i've read some of the dc zombies which i guess also probably falls [Rob]: into the else worlds [Guido]: no but [Guido]: okay [Rob]: oh [Rob]: okay and that's a elsewhere it's adjacent i think that's pretty much it for my [Guido]: i'll talk about i'll talk about that yeah alright so goth [Rob]: elsewhere else yeah [Rob]: how about yourself [Guido]: and by gas light is it [Rob]: yeah that's pretty day the buck stops there yeah exactly
[Rob]: the bat stops there i should say yes [Guido]: doesn't even have the else world's logo on it so i don't even know if it can count [Rob]: no mo yeah [Guido]: but [Guido]: i love else worlds i be having been a what a fan i'm a big else worlds fan and [Guido]: definitely goth them by gaslight was probably my entry into it especially because [Guido]: it was the first sort of proto else worlds title and it was a logo that i would
[Guido]: often look for and seek out and then just buy now sometimes i was actually a [Guido]: little turned off i'll talk in a moment about the prestige format that they chose [Guido]: for else worlds and as a kid collecting i didn't love that i didn't love the [Guido]: square bound books with the spines uh they were also a little bit more expensive [Guido]: of course so i wasn't always into them but it gave us a lot of really huge
[Guido]: classics and i love it and i love the idea so i'm pretty familiar but there is a [Guido]: lot of else worlds i haven't read and i'm very excited for us to dive into this [Guido]: all of these different worlds [Guido]: so [Guido]: else world's comes from there's a long tradition of what d c actually called [Guido]: imaginary stories and they would flat out be called imaginary stories because they [Guido]: were the things even in the silver age where when there was a single issue that
[Guido]: didn't really fit in continuity like [Rob]: mhm [Guido]: what if superman married lois they would just call it an imaginary story [Guido]: and so [Guido]: fast forward to probably nineteen eighty eight mark wade is working on a secret [Guido]: origins annual and brian augustine had an idea of batman and jack the ripper to [Guido]: develop for that annual but the idea started to get so big and a lot of this
[Guido]: background is care of the back issue magazine which has some great history [Guido]: industry of the else world's imprint and the idea got so big they went to dick [Guido]: giordano editor and he gave it a green light to go run with it make it something [Guido]: else [Guido]: and so they decided to do that and that's how they worked with the marketing team [Guido]: and came up with the idea that they were they would be prestige books they would
[Guido]: be these square bound more expensive higher quality paper thicker books and got [Guido]: them by gaslight then in nineteen eighty nine is the first else world technically [Guido]: although it does not contain the actual logo so that honor goes to batman holy [Guido]: terror in nineteen ninety one so it actually took a little while until there's a [Guido]: logo and they decided that this whole brand would capture everything that doesn't
[Guido]: fit into the core universe of those imaginary stories and they actually even came [Guido]: up with a mission statement for the brand so in else worlds heroes are taken from [Guido]: their usual settings and put into strange times and places some that have existed [Guido]: others that can't or couldn't or shouldn't exist the result is stories that make [Guido]: characters who are as familiar as yesterday seem as fresh as to morrow and so of [Guido]: course some of the most
[Rob]: yeah i read that [Rob]: i read that in the issue that we're going to read i i love the idea of the mission [Rob]: statement it feels it does have a little bit of a real culprit that [Rob]: last sentence there it's like okay we're the these old characters we're going to [Guido]: yeah for for sure it's not [Rob]: keep them fresh here and and [Guido]: yeah [Rob]: and just have having them state it like that it just feels like this was labored
[Rob]: over by a dozen people to come up with this one sentence [Guido]: it's also pretty wordy like like the idea that we're going to put them in strange [Guido]: times and places some that have existed others that can't or couldn't or shouldn't [Guido]: exist it's like as a could you imagine as a kid like that's not going to really [Guido]: you know turn you on [Guido]: for the story but anyway it has a mission statement so they were really focused [Rob]: yeah yeah
[Guido]: and some of the else world's books became some of the biggest selling titles at dc [Guido]: ever got them by gaslight being a great example and then of course red sun super [Guido]: famous else worlds kingdom come is an else world story [Rob]: okay i've heard of that one [Guido]: so there are really famous else world stories a lot of the team who worked on else [Guido]: worlds talked about how you know things like watchmen and dark night returns were [Guido]: essentially else worlds but
[Rob]: su [Guido]: predated the formation of the label and of course batman was the most frequently [Guido]: used else worlds the line continued until two thousand three and there are at [Guido]: least one hundred twenty five or so worlds some of those books even have multiple [Guido]: issues so that's not individual issues that's just the actual concepts some of [Guido]: them are two partners three partners some are a little longer but generally they
[Guido]: are one two or three parts so two thousand three the brand disappears they stop [Guido]: using it completely in two thousand ten they try to bring it back with the last [Guido]: family of crypton but that's the only attempted reuse of it since then so [Rob]: m [Guido]: of course we do have a lot of multi verse stories showing up throughout dc [Guido]: probably more than ever and we also have a lot of quote unquote imaginary not even [Guido]: multi vers [Rob]: yeah
[Guido]: stories like deceased which you just referred to tom taylor's zombies story or [Guido]: like tom taylor's dark knights of steel currently transposing all the characters [Guido]: into [Guido]: the medieval times which actually did happen in a few else worlds which we'll get [Guido]: to so [Rob]: yes i'll go with with you to the [Guido]: elsewhere as a concept hasn't stopped [Guido]: but as the brand has
[Rob]: yeah i will i'll go with you to the comic book store on wednesday new comic book [Rob]: day and i'll just look at the number of batman titles specifically and i'll wonder [Rob]: as a non batman reader how is how are all these titles existing cause so there [Rob]: those are so many of those i'm guessing are imaginary stories just not under the [Rob]: elsewhere world banner [Guido]: it depends so for example like right now [Guido]: chips darky is writing
[Guido]: batman mini series that's a a recon it's a story that takes place in cannon but [Guido]: took place when batman was younger when he's getting trained and so same thing you [Guido]: know our dear friend elliot proposed that his favorite else worlds were superman [Guido]: for all seasons or superman birthright and both of those are the same sort of [Guido]: concept there're these mini series that are [Guido]: somewhat rewriting our core continuity now that gets super complicated in dc
[Guido]: because dc's universe has [Rob]: is [Guido]: rebooted so unlike marvel which even though there's been some elements of a reboot [Guido]: especially in the secret wars in twenty fifteen you still have a core universe a [Guido]: six one six universe with a primary timeline dc doesn't have that because dc has [Guido]: hard [Guido]: complete three boots and then we even [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: have some revisions on those reboots so of course like the rebirth era revises the
[Guido]: new fifty two to merge it with the prime earth which is the crisis on infinite [Guido]: earths reboot and then you have the multiversity multiverse on top of all of that [Guido]: so it gets really complicated to figure out sort of what's core and canonical and [Guido]: what's not [Guido]: but [Guido]: you it's pretty clear which of those mini series are supposed to be telling a [Guido]: story within our world and which are not or sometimes the creators will not so
[Guido]: shaw king's batman catwoman series that's going on right now that is not taking [Rob]: is it [Guido]: place in the core cannon continuity it's something of an else worlds in fact but [Guido]: they don't use that brand anymore [Guido]: so that's our background on else worlds [Rob]: thank you you know that was really interesting yeah it was really interesting to [Rob]: get a little bit bit of that background and i'm really excited to dive in deeper
[Rob]: so with that dear watchers welcome to episode thirty eight let's check out what's [Rob]: happening in the multi verse with today's alternate universe [Rob]: and today we are going to be posing the question what if all the men in the dc [Rob]: universe died except superman and lex luther [Guido]: what a question that is and this is earth nine two two [Guido]: so earth designations in dc are oftentimes not available [Guido]: or
[Guido]: just constructed by someone in the world so take it as you will but this is earth [Guido]: nine two two so a real brief summary and we'll get into a lot of the detail when [Guido]: we dive into earth nine two two but on this earth a disease passes through it's [Guido]: sort of a cloud disease floating through the universe comes hits earth all of the [Guido]: men except superman die every single man lex luther saves himself by [Rob]: yeah
[Guido]: staying inside his armor and because that happens many women step up into the [Guido]: roles of other previously male heroes wonder woman starts to essentially lead the [Guido]: earth via leading the un and the mesa takes on a whole new role as the capital of [Guido]: the earth meanwhile there's research being done to figure out about this virus and [Guido]: how it played out and of course everyone's thinking about the survival of humanity
[Guido]: so we end up with lois lane pregnant but lex luther refusing to accept that the [Guido]: future of humanity is kryptonian so lex ends up revealing which turns out to be [Guido]: true that superman is in fact now a carrier for what they call the fall the virus [Guido]: has embedded itself in his cells so superman has to leave earth go away or he'll [Guido]: risk infecting his child and anyone else that exists on earth in the future he [Guido]: leaves he leaves behind his
[Guido]: genetic material in a canister for wonder [Rob]: yes yeah [Guido]: woman and [Guido]: lois meanwhile gives birth so jump ahead a few years we find that all of the [Guido]: children of the amazons now with superman sperm are being trained on thes scra and [Guido]: being trained in the ways of warriors and the values of peace of course but [Guido]: meanwhile lex is [Guido]: mentally sort of entering the dream state of adam the first child lowest end
[Guido]: superman's child and convincing him that men need to take back their place in the [Guido]: earth he ends up sort of triggering all of them to rebel against the amazons and [Guido]: of the women in the who are running the world they begin a battle superman returns [Guido]: in his own armor to earth found a vaccine out in space that doctor light helps him [Guido]: develop [Guido]: long story short t i know this has been a long summary but lex turns on his new
[Guido]: army of misogynist bald teenagers because he can't deal with kryptonians he plans [Guido]: to kill them with kryptonite it turns out that super using the crypton makes the [Guido]: vaccine work for superman so he can take off his armor lex has a heart attack and [Guido]: they end up with a new [Guido]: race of children that lex had been working on with his own genetic material that [Guido]: now superman and all of the female heroes will raise as their own children and i
[Guido]: think those are all the really pertinent details for the sake of a summary of [Guido]: earth nine two two [Rob]: yes they're they're two pretty hefty issues so there was a lot to cover there [Guido]: they are it's a lot and that's the thing with else worlds they're dense these are [Guido]: two prestige forty page books so it's a it's a big story [Rob]: yes and these are existing in the world of the ninety seconds j la or the nineties
[Rob]: j characters so gita what is your background with [Rob]: that era of the justice society of america [Guido]: well it's the justice league of america you like the justice society better but [Rob]: of justice justice league of america i think i i wanted to subconsciously make it [Guido]: it's the justice like [Rob]: the justice society because i don't find these characters as interesting but go [Rob]: ahead yeah what is [Guido]: so i was not reading this era of dc i'd read
[Guido]: justice league books up until they sort of disband and i read a sum of justice [Guido]: league international and then post superman's [Guido]: red and blue states i really wasn't reading much else in the d c universe i have [Guido]: gone back and revisited some of j a and i have the omnibus upstairs but i have [Guido]: never read it straight through which i should and will talk about who the creator [Guido]: is and why it's a creator that i cannot believe i haven't read this start to
[Guido]: finish but because like you i have no attachment to these characters and certainly [Guido]: to them being on a team it never drew me in so i don't have a huge background with [Guido]: late ninety seconds into the early two thousands j folks how about you [Rob]: yeah i don't i did not read this era at all i really don't have a big connection [Rob]: with the gla i like a lot of these characters in their own rights especially you
[Rob]: know batman and the flash those were characters certainly i i have read [Rob]: but as a team it just never really did it for me i think because you have these [Rob]: three heavy hitters up front plus the green lantern plus martian manhunter these [Rob]: are pretty powerful people there was just something about even the aesthetic of [Rob]: the look that i just never loved but this era i was not at all reading gla i was
[Rob]: reading js a probably around the same time but i think that was all i was really [Rob]: reading in dc at this point [Rob]: well let us dive in deeper into our origins of the story [Rob]: and first up we have jl volume one issue one from january nineteen ninety seven [Rob]: and the story is entitled them [Guido]: this is written by grant morrison penciled by howard porter inked by john dell [Guido]: colored by pat ghee and heroic age lettered by ken lopez edited by ruben diaz and
[Guido]: we read this because it's essentially this era's gla the title the else world's [Guido]: title is from two thousand so a little after grant is still writing ja la at that [Guido]: point it's a pretty long run on gala that they had but i just figured let's read [Guido]: this first issue and get a little bit of the sense of the dynamics of the late [Guido]: ninety seconds team [Guido]: and grant is someone i am a huge fan of and that's why it's rather shocking that i
[Guido]: haven't read this run but i haven't and i will one day and this was the start of [Guido]: it what do you think [Rob]: well it's a really classic scifi story a kind of story that twilight zone covered [Rob]: but also in other science fiction and of course i know grant morrison was a big [Rob]: science fiction fan in fact there or is a science fiction fan in fact there's that [Rob]: old monster movie called them about the giant ants i was
[Rob]: almost wondering if that's where they got the name for but i love this concept [Guido]: yeah i was thinking that [Rob]: that there's this other super race of people each one looks very different they [Rob]: kind of have and now are analogous with the gla members in some ways that they [Rob]: come to earth and basically say hey we're just gonna clean everything up we're [Rob]: going to populate the sahara with forests and we're going to kill the criminals
[Rob]: instead of just keep locking them up but most of the people like that kind of [Rob]: reminds me of some of the questions that mark ruin wald posed in his squadron [Rob]: supreme run there [Guido]: it's very squadron supreme as i was reading this i was like whoa if this is what [Guido]: it is then i love it because you and i both love squadron supreme and it is very [Guido]: similar in [Rob]: this is [Guido]: terms of yeah the social
[Guido]: ramifications of superheroes and whether or not they should help in certain ways [Guido]: and what that means for society and how our society is organized and structured [Guido]: and how we solve problems so i mean this first story is just the first few issues [Guido]: and then i know they transition quickly into other stories but they wrote this for [Guido]: years and so i would imagine that they revisit some of the themes on this run
[Guido]: because i yeah i had that same exact thought [Rob]: yet i love that they do establish with the gla a lot of their personalities i love [Rob]: that batman is just they're saying where's batman he's and that he's lurking in [Rob]: the back and he says i've been here for an hour [Guido]: yeah and he's like i've been here an hour [Rob]: and kyle [Rob]: ra rayner right [Guido]: uhuh [Rob]: is now the green lantern [Guido]: mhm
[Rob]: that's his name i mean he's a little annoying he's definitely the smart [Rob]: in these teams [Rob]: but i i mean i think it gels well with the overall group i think overall compared [Rob]: though to the avengers or the js a because superman and wonder woman don't and [Rob]: even maybe this wally west don't have as much fleshed out personalities at least [Rob]: in this issue that we read today [Rob]: i think it would help if they were a little bit more idiosyncratic
[Guido]: yeah and i'd imagine perhaps they become that way but [Guido]: yeah and i enjoyed it cause it sort of fills a gap for me too like i i love the [Guido]: era after this that leads us into infinite crisis which is really about their [Guido]: relationship to each other so i'm assuming this we'll get into some of that and i [Guido]: agree since their personalities are [Guido]: either sort of more two dimensional or [Rob]: that's
[Guido]: just harder to add nuance to i think it's in their relationship that you have to [Guido]: do a lot of the storytelling and so i would [Rob]: hm [Guido]: imagine grant gets to that but in this first issue it's just basically an intro it [Guido]: was fun to read get a sense [Rob]: and one last thing before we move on to i there's this one channel on the one page [Rob]: where the new superhuman who arrive are killing other super villains [Guido]: hm
[Rob]: or other superhero characters and we see some marvel characters in there [Rob]: there's dr doomed one hundred percent the one looks just like wolverine it's hard [Rob]: to exactly see but he's got the yellow and blue and got wolverine's hair i'm not [Rob]: sure if anyone else is there so do you know any backstory with with that panel or [Guido]: no i did not i did not even catch that so i don't know if that was a a grand [Rob]: is that just fun
[Guido]: easter egg or a howard porter easter egg or what the deal if that is i mean [Guido]: grant's done that a few times [Guido]: a good number of people have done that a few times where they'll they'll represent [Guido]: the multi verse the com the comic book omni verse in fact in panel in the [Guido]: background as an easter egg so no i did not catch that and maybe it means [Guido]: something in this run we'll have to find out with the omnibus that's upstairs
[Rob]: well let us jump in our giant egg pods which is what these other superheroes [Rob]: arrive in and launch into exploring multi diversity [Rob]: and this week [Rob]: as leaders of the council of watchers we have made this elsewhere into the [Rob]: question [Rob]: what if every male in the dc universe died except superman and lex luthor and this [Rob]: was explored in j la created equal one and two part one is the fall for march two
[Rob]: thousand and part two is the children of the spring from april two thousand [Guido]: and both of these issues were written by phobia nisa penciled by kevin mcguire [Guido]: inked by joe rubinstein the first issue was colored by gloria vasco's and the only [Guido]: background on this that i could dig out was that the gala's presence in the else [Guido]: world's stories was quite late so gli didn't the justice league didn't get any
[Guido]: else worlds until nineteen ninety fours annuals which were all else world's [Guido]: imprints and then it wasn't really until the success of kingdom come in nineteen [Guido]: ninety seven that the line grew a lot for the gla so between nineteen ninety eight [Guido]: and two thousand one there were a good number of justice league else world's [Guido]: titles at this point and this came in that wave [Guido]: so this was big [Guido]: what did you think of this [Rob]: so i really
[Rob]: enjoyed both of these issues as we kind of said when you were giving this summary [Rob]: there's a lot going on here and i thought early on it felt a little uh rushed but [Rob]: then once it really gets into the issues proper i i thought it raised some really [Rob]: interesting questions about [Rob]: and also [Guido]: like what [Rob]: elevating some of these characters i love [Rob]: so well i think first off that how they're raising the the next [Rob]: line of heroes or dex line of of
[Rob]: people a of well superman's children [Guido]: of humans [Rob]: and that they are being raised by yeah oh yes well they're the half human half [Guido]: right but they're the future of humanity yeah [Rob]: crypton ands but i thought [Rob]: yes the hu future of humanity and i think it was it's really interesting having [Rob]: them being raised by all women [Rob]: that then you know we get this corrupting influence from lex in there
[Rob]: and it just it's just in it's interesting because i could see it in a very [Rob]: realistic setting how a teenage boy would react it didn't seem like it was [Rob]: superhero level which was what i think it made it work it was like this is how a [Rob]: sup uh a teenage boy would react when suddenly exposed to probably a corrupting [Rob]: male influence [Guido]: i don't know if i totally agree on your read because i think i mean one thing that
[Guido]: i think is really tricky about this issue these issues which i also really liked [Guido]: but i think we have to be careful and i actually think fabian is really careful [Guido]: with [Guido]: with essential izing gender and there's actually nothing in this happily that [Guido]: essentialize gender so there's only one moment toward the end [Guido]: where one of them when all the teenage boys who've been sort of telepathically
[Guido]: triggered start to attack one of them says well it's their nature that in fact the [Guido]: telepathic control of luther sort of only [Rob]: is [Guido]: triggered something but [Guido]: i don't read that [Guido]: maybe it was just me but it didn't read to me as a commentary on the nature of man [Guido]: because of course that's very gender essential izing also of course the this [Guido]: entire issue is constructed around a binary of gender not surprisingly for twenty [Guido]: years ago
[Guido]: so [Guido]: but [Guido]: i saw it more as and this is private the health teacher in me i saw it more as [Guido]: about puberty like they were you know they even the way they talk about having [Guido]: these dreams which is the telepathic communication and that they have all these [Guido]: feelings they don't know what to do with and they want to sort of be [Rob]: yes [Guido]: heard and understood and so it felt much more about adolescence to me than about [Rob]: mm [Guido]: male gender
[Rob]: yeah [Guido]: and and maybe it's just a better way for me to appreciate this with more nuance [Guido]: and not worry about it being a commentary on male being menn being evil but you [Guido]: know for the fifteen years that they're raising these boys [Rob]: you [Guido]: like nothing happens they're not more violent i mean there's you [Rob]: yes [Guido]: know adam accidentally kills lois but that's because of his superpowers it's not
[Guido]: because he's like a you know an out of control boy there's no boys will be boys [Guido]: moment and all of lex's [Guido]: commentary and convincing them i mean it is [Guido]: so trumping [Rob]: yes very so yeah [Guido]: it is so brilliant like i i don't know maybe fabian even had trump in his mind and [Guido]: certainly there have been misogynist you know arrogant leaders who've preyed on on [Guido]: men's fears that they're losing power and control but all of the comments that he
[Guido]: he makes to them about the way the world should be structured and what capitalism [Guido]: means in the world [Rob]: yes [Guido]: like all of that was so good and it to me it was a comment that [Guido]: gender is is is more nurture than nature our social [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: construct of gender is nurture that these boys did not have that there was not [Guido]: gonna be a push for a patriarchy until lex came around and said these women are [Guido]: taking away your power
[Rob]: yeah well i think i think just hearing you talk and and thinking back to the [Rob]: issues i think fab and these nsa is obviously telling a story about gender with [Rob]: these two issues but i think you could replace gender with something else [Rob]: and and you would still get the same overall arc and i'm thinking i was just as [Rob]: you know i finished just reading this comic american cults and i think [Guido]: person
[Rob]: one of the great things that that poses is that when you're in these very confined [Rob]: species without a lot of outside influences good things can come but also bad [Rob]: things can come so i think what you're getting [Rob]: on the on the paradise island is that in some ways they are growing really well [Rob]: because they are getting all these amazing lessons from the amazons and these [Rob]: other teachers but at the same time they're not necessarily fully growing into
[Rob]: full humans because they're not getting all of those outside influences as well [Rob]: and that includes bad influences like lex so there's almost a isolationist versus [Rob]: non isolationist feeling i'm also getting which is also interesting because we had [Rob]: we were talking a lot about that after the september eleventh attacks too but that [Rob]: was still not even you know that was a year away as well those those kind of
[Rob]: discussions so i think this was very prescient in many ways but do you think you [Rob]: see any of that as well that kind of [Rob]: lack of outside influences and the good things and bad things that can come from [Rob]: that [Guido]: well and that's what i see i like to me that can also apply to parenting and [Guido]: adolescence again and growing up so the idea that if you over shelter your child [Guido]: then they they might be more easily exploited and susceptible so in case [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: as you were saying like these these these kids were not being exposed to differing [Guido]: views you can even apply this to [Rob]: yes [Guido]: a lens or a polarized po a political thing right they're not being exposed to [Guido]: different views and so as soon as they encounter someone charismatic preying on [Guido]: their fear telling them that they have power they can take back then than they are [Guido]: susceptible to that and they can be sucked into that so yeah [Rob]: and that
[Guido]: i think this [Rob]: i think really resonates when you're thinking about like the twenty sixteen [Rob]: election and things like that you know people [Guido]: yeah [Rob]: who are not often exposed to as many views if they meet a really charismatic [Rob]: figure that's telling them what they want to hear they can be swayed [Guido]: or the way social media has destroyed us you know it's [Rob]: oh totally yes
[Guido]: because it sets up echo chambers like and you know you stop becoming exposed to to [Guido]: differences and so yeah i mean the fact that we're able to talk about so many [Guido]: different [Guido]: current social topics for sure speaks to me about how good this issue is about how [Guido]: well executed it is [Guido]: e even if you can you know [Rob]: and he does also i think discuss [Guido]: no go ahead
[Rob]: and it does also i think take into not just these bigger social issues but also [Rob]: good superhero issues as well like you mentioned adam accidentally [Rob]: you know murders lois his mother and it's and it's interesting like if superman [Rob]: had been around to train adam how to use his powers would that have happened maybe [Rob]: it would have been but this is another great like superhero problem to even [Rob]: encounter
[Guido]: yeah i agree i agree and i think it i mean it does it well too even with some of [Guido]: the the women like there's this comedian who this maria who [Rob]: yes [Guido]: is going to be wants to be totally self absorbed and only use she gets the green [Guido]: lantern ring and she only wants to use it for her own benefit and essentially [Guido]: would like to steal money but since they do away with money in this world [Guido]: she very utopian she
[Guido]: essentially can't do it she uses them i love the the appar like chippindale [Guido]: dancers that she uses to fight [Rob]: yes [Guido]: against the other heroes and then they pass her ring on to barbara gordon we [Guido]: actually don't even know what happens to her we [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: just know that they end up with the ring and they give it to barbara so yeah i [Guido]: think there's a lot of superhero questions raised in this about
[Guido]: what you do with power and how you are a hero and legacy and stuff that is so [Guido]: present in comics to day with legacy characters and how many people can we call [Guido]: batman how many people can we call wolverine who [Rob]: sure [Guido]: can have that title like all of that definitely shows up in here too [Rob]: and that comes up here too be cause the the superheroes are are now the women's [Rob]: superheroes are changing their names now that their male counterparts are gone so
[Rob]: jesse quick is just the flash and it's not hawk girl anymore she's just the hawk [Rob]: and the green lantern is a woman and it's not mrs green lantern you know [Guido]: yeah [Rob]: you it made you then think about oh wow there's so many characters because they [Rob]: come from such a different era that we're putting girl or boy or woman or man like [Rob]: onto their names and as you said like now that those barriers are being broken
[Rob]: down and we're thankfully exploring more diversity and in comics and in elsewhere [Rob]: it really comes up with that question of oh how do you approach these kind of [Rob]: legacy characters does the hawk does hawk girl can hawk girl just be the hawk [Guido]: yeah i i think those questions are really interesting in this and i think it [Guido]: builds to know i was thinking in our pre reading list which was really short this
[Guido]: week with gla that there are so many good utopian scifi stories that i think tell [Guido]: similar stories to this and we could have looked at those and i'm thinking about [Guido]: one that i just read last year her land which was written in the twenties which is [Guido]: a society of women now that's not it's actually not an alternate earth they [Guido]: live in like a isolated place on earth but it's thought that that book probably
[Guido]: influenced the creator of wonder woman to create fem ska so yeah i think there's [Guido]: lots of questions about [Guido]: identity gender and legacy that show up in here and that come from a long lineage [Guido]: of sci fi around like what [Rob]: h [Guido]: what is utopia is present in this and [Rob]: yes [Guido]: then how does gender play out in that [Guido]: did you have other thoughts about this [Rob]: and these are all heavy questions but well i was going to say these are all big
[Rob]: heavy questions but i think there's also there also is humor still in the issue as [Rob]: well i think as you mentioned superman giving wonderful a what looks like an urn [Rob]: or faberge egg con containing his sperm is probably supposed to be a little funny [Guido]: and wait what does he call it it's well she she calls it well well [Guido]: hippo calls it the gift of hope [Guido]: and she just [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: asks them like have you given any thought to what i asked and so yeah they they [Guido]: keep it a little vague but i love the idea the gift of hope is uh a superman sperm [Rob]: yeah and a lot of alexis lines as disgusting as he is he does have a lot of great [Rob]: lines when he's talking about the fact that he's just lobotomized all these [Rob]: telepaths and also i think the overall idea that the superman's offspring father
[Rob]: living on you know the paradise island all have long hair and then once they [Rob]: become followers of legs they all have leg [Rob]: shaved heads which is classic sci fi but it is also a little funny too cause a [Guido]: they all save their head yeah [Guido]: well it also fits it fits with what you were saying too about like cult behavior [Rob]: little on the nose [Guido]: you know these are people who [Rob]: yeah
[Guido]: are really susceptible right now and so as soon as they start to idolize lex [Guido]: they're like oh let's do let's look like him [Rob]: totally and we've we've talked a lot about the story and fabian [Rob]: contributions but what do you think about the art here because it it it's a very [Rob]: interesting mix of styles even though it's all from one person [Guido]: yeah this is this is [Guido]: very representative kevin maguire art which i like kevin mcguire are to me kevin
[Guido]: mcguire art is like it's very terry moore strangers in paradise it's like a bit of [Guido]: a [Rob]: uhhuh [Guido]: hybrid to me of [Guido]: of like indie books like it looks more like love and rockets [Rob]: yes [Guido]: or strangers in paradise but with a superhero action sensibility so it doesn't [Guido]: have a lot of definition or detail or lines it's very simplified but it has a lot [Guido]: in the characters faces and bodies and their physical appearances he draws
[Guido]: characters really well so i like kevin mcguire i mean there are points that i wish [Guido]: were a little stronger there are some splash pages that i'm like this would be [Guido]: gorgeous if it just had a little bit more definition or care paid to this point [Guido]: but i like it what about you [Rob]: mm hm yeah i think it it's very interesting because i guess to what you're saying [Rob]: often when if it was in film terms and it's a wide shot there's very little detail
[Rob]: in people's faces and in the backgrounds everything is very clean it's a little [Rob]: cartoony but then when you pull in and do a close up especially with superman and [Rob]: lex throughout these two issues it becomes like you're saying there's almost indie [Rob]: there's this one great part where lois is gonna go skippy skinny dipping and then [Rob]: there's this close up of superman's face just smirking and suddenly it's just full
[Rob]: of detail and there's some other great superman shots and leck shots so it's [Rob]: almost like you put all of this time into a few of the panels and the rest of the [Rob]: time maybe because it was also such a big book [Rob]: did a little bit of a quicker less detailed style i don't know if the timing [Rob]: played a part in it [Guido]: yeah i don't know if it was rushed or anything like that or and of course inking
[Guido]: and coloring can play a huge part this is obviously and we've talked about this [Guido]: before i think with el at once on an episode this is the early [Guido]: advent of computer coloring and it gets it makes the image very flat so that could [Guido]: be part of what's going on here i think [Rob]: and brights there's lots of super bright super primary colors throughout both of [Rob]: these [Guido]: yeah
[Rob]: issues the blues are blue and the reds are red and there's very little in between [Guido]: yeah [Guido]: so you know with else worlds there are times that earth are revisited and i'll [Guido]: obviously talk about those when we get to them this earth has never been revisited [Guido]: that i know of or could find there is a lot of legacy in here and i'll talk about [Guido]: this now because it doesn't it's not how i chose the list so you know there's some
[Guido]: cool legacy stuff like we have this woman of color becoming the atom and [Guido]: eventually a man of color becomes the atom and so you get some cool stuff like [Guido]: that and and then of course we have and you asked me this when you were reading it [Guido]: the birth of superman in lois [Rob]: hm [Guido]: having a child the the birth of their child i don't think this has anything to do [Guido]: with john kent being born and he's born in twenty fifteen there's zero connection
[Guido]: to the story so there's a lot of stuff like that but we've never gone back to this [Guido]: earth specifically before we begin to explore the possibilities that this might [Guido]: have inspired you want to go back to this earth [Rob]: i don't think i really need to go back to this earth because [Rob]: i think [Rob]: the the questions that these issues posed are answered here and i don't really [Rob]: need to see how we're gonna then repopulate the earth after this
[Guido]: with all the the half lex jean pool people running around [Rob]: yes yeah [Guido]: yeah i i agree i mean i think it's so satisfying a story and it's eighty pages so [Guido]: i think it you know it the right idea i think there could have been a sequel there [Guido]: could still be a sequel like you could still return to this earth because you do [Guido]: still have an earth with [Guido]: you will have i guess aged like let's say you even jump twenty years into the
[Guido]: future you'll have like a matriarchal society essentially with the [Rob]: is [Guido]: exception of superman you'll still have women ruling the world and having [Guido]: constructed society but now the population will be [Guido]: more gender varied hopefully even beyond just male and female so you know i think [Guido]: the right writer and creator could tell us equal story but yeah i think it was [Guido]: satisfying
[Rob]: well while our lex babies continue to germinate we will spend some time pondering [Rob]: possibilities [Rob]: so we're really interested to ask you guido how you came up with this list because [Rob]: we've got a superhero comic and we have a non superhero comic [Guido]: that's true well so this is you know typically when we cover what if one of the [Guido]: rules i use so one rule is that the anything we look at as a as a possibility
[Guido]: we're pondering should follow the alternate universe in terms of the order that it [Guido]: was written and created in so that we can look at any shared dna or connective [Guido]: tissue but the other rule of choosing something from the same universe doesn't [Guido]: apply and it's going to be really hard while we're navigating the dc universe [Guido]: because dc has always had [Guido]: a lot of multi val storytelling going on and has this whole one hundred twenty
[Guido]: five else worlds that are not even necessarily numbered earth or earth that we've [Guido]: ever seen before and so it will become very hard and then even when you get into [Guido]: the core dc earth you know you have prime earth you have new earth you have earth [Guido]: zero like you have all these questions you have timelines that have been [Guido]: reconstructed so the silver aid stuff did happen didn't happen it's going to be [Guido]: very [Rob]: listen
[Guido]: hard to have one core thing to go into and so i decided okay let's just stay with [Guido]: dc's publishing and look at things that seem connected and so i chose [Guido]: actually one issue that doesn't take place in this earth at all and doesn't have [Guido]: an earth de designation because as you said it's not a superhero book and then i [Guido]: chose another book that is [Guido]: another alternate earth it it again it's not taking place in the core justice
[Guido]: league universe but it's another alternate earth that felt a little connected and [Guido]: felt like it would be fun to visit so that's how i got to what we're gonna read [Rob]: yes and first up following the adventures of the world's most annoying man and his [Rob]: monkey it is why the last man volume one issue one from september two thousand two [Rob]: and this is unmanned part one of five [Guido]: this is written by brian kavan penciled by pi garra inked by jose marsan junior
[Guido]: colored by pamela rambo lettered by clem robbins edited by zach raoul and heidi [Guido]: mcdonald published by vertigo [Guido]: and we read it because the [Guido]: similarity is remarkable the [Rob]: yes [Guido]: fact that dc [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: published these two things [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: two years apart right and i don't [Rob]: mm hm [Guido]: know if brian cavan was inspired by bab and iza as i mentioned there are sci fi [Guido]: stories that predate both of these but [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: it is remarkable [Rob]: totally [Guido]: that in a span of two years dc published two stories were all but one man die off [Guido]: in the earth [Rob]: yeah and i i think having worked a little bit in the entertainment industry too i [Rob]: just know that i won't slide brian cavan because i know that these are [Guido]: no no [Rob]: this is sometimes how things go you you're thinking of a story something else is [Rob]: maybe successful but i'm sure this was already in his brain before
[Guido]: totally and it's a completely different story [Rob]: it got put out it just happens that it's by the same person yes yes [Guido]: oh totally it's and no i i don't in any way think that yeah and in terms of the [Guido]: question we usually pose ourselves were these inspired i don't at all think brian [Guido]: cavan was inspired by phoebe naza gali created equal but it is just like whoa in [Guido]: two years dc published these two books were [Rob]: yeah
[Guido]: where literally one man survives i guess and created equal lex survives through [Guido]: his armor but otherwise ukri killing all of the men on earth it's it's like wow [Guido]: so [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: we watched some of why the last man series i've never read all of why the last man [Guido]: i read a little bit of the early issues you never read why the last man what [Rob]: now [Guido]: do you think of reading this first issue
[Rob]: i really you can see why i it would be adapted into a television series because [Rob]: this it's very cinematic in how this is presented hopping along between the [Rob]: different storylines the way that it's even giving us those title cards of this is [Rob]: how much time is left it's all brian cavan and and p agua using cinematic tropes i [Rob]: think or cinematic devices i could should say in the comic so i thought that was
[Rob]: really interesting and i i think you know i was making fun of him but i think what [Rob]: he and i know it was a criticism also of the television show is the character of [Rob]: uk because he is very annoying and he's also annoying in this comic but i do think [Rob]: that was the point of what brian [Guido]: yeah for sure [Rob]: cavan was going for it's like when you go to the j l a that we just read you know
[Rob]: you have the polar opposites you have superman you know who wouldn't want superman [Rob]: to be the one man left alive on the planet and you have lex who's the one person [Rob]: you wouldn't want and here it's like again telling that story of like well what if [Rob]: one person survived but he's incredibly annoying he's kind of you know worthless [Rob]: useless i should say in many ways so you know i think that is part of the story [Rob]: does it make it fun to read
[Rob]: or watch on tv no not necessarily but uh yeah so that's my kind of initial take on [Rob]: it [Guido]: i will say i you know i enjoyed the show and i wish it that continued but reading [Guido]: this again which i had read the first arc of why the last man but not in a long [Guido]: time it's much more enjoyable reading it than watching it [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: so yeah [Rob]: yes i i think at at it it was interesting to reading this back with j la because
[Rob]: yes i i think at at it it was interesting to reading this back with j la because [Rob]: we were listening to mark frost the co creator of twin peaks on another podcast [Rob]: we were listening to mark frost the co creator of twin peaks on another podcast [Rob]: and he was talking about how sometimes you can it's actually more interesting to [Rob]: and he was talking about how sometimes you can it's actually more interesting to
[Rob]: tell stories using like a demon rather than rather than someone explo you know [Rob]: tell stories using like a demon rather than rather than someone explo you know [Rob]: struggling with their alcoholism they're struggling with a demon that's [Rob]: struggling with their alcoholism they're struggling with a demon that's [Rob]: representing their alcoholism and that can actually be more interesting and i kind
[Rob]: representing their alcoholism and that can actually be more interesting and i kind [Rob]: of got that reading these two issues back to back it's kind of in some ways i [Rob]: of got that reading these two issues back to back it's kind of in some ways i [Rob]: found a little bit maybe it's my personal preference found it more interesting [Rob]: found a little bit maybe it's my personal preference found it more interesting
[Rob]: exploring the same problem through a superhero lens through a super then through a [Rob]: exploring the same problem through a superhero lens through a super then through a [Rob]: very realistic lens and maybe that's just also where i'm at in the world and i [Rob]: very realistic lens and maybe that's just also where i'm at in the world and i [Rob]: want that that little element of distance in my story telling right now
[Rob]: want that that little element of distance in my story telling right now [Guido]: yeah [Guido]: so yeah that we just read that for fun cause again the wildness of two years apart [Guido]: these two things being published but let's [Rob]: it was [Guido]: move on to the next thing we read [Rob]: yes so next we are returning to the world of superheroes with superman batman [Rob]: volume one issue twenty four from january two thousand six and it's entitled
[Rob]: lengthy title with the vengeance part five the price of ar sins [Guido]: this is written by jeff lobe penciled by edm gins inked by dexter vines colored by [Guido]: dave mcg lettered by richard starkings edited by eddie berganza and tom palmer [Guido]: junior so this is very cool this is earth eleven this is one of the [Guido]: fifty two [Guido]: canonized [Guido]: earths in the multi verse of dc earth eleven and earth eleven is known as the [Guido]: gender reversed earth so it
[Rob]: okay [Guido]: cameos in the issue prior to this its debut is in this issue and then sadly [Guido]: there's actually it doesn't show up a lot more it it makes an appearance in one [Guido]: justice league crossover a few years later where they deal with different earths [Guido]: and then there's one in the countdown event there's one issue where the [Guido]: challengers of the unknown are searching for ray palmer and they go in and out of
[Guido]: different earth they actually go in and out of a bunch of else world's earths and [Guido]: one of the earths is superwoman batwoman and that issue's not available digitally [Guido]: i'm holding it up so you can see the beautiful ryan suk cover of batwoman and [Guido]: superwoman and the female green lantern so you get a little bit more of the earth [Guido]: flushed out in this but that's actually it and yet earth eleven is like it's in
[Guido]: grant multiversity index it's people of earth people reference and i think i heard [Guido]: someone mention on twitter when we mentioned we were going to be visiting earth [Guido]: eleven that there's a series coming out in the near future that might be in earth [Guido]: eleven or include characters from earth eleven so it's had a lot of impact and yet [Guido]: we read essentially its core issue so what do you think of earth eleven
[Rob]: well it was this was definitely one of those cases where it's hard for me jumping [Rob]: in not knowing i i see i didn't even know that it was necessarily a different [Rob]: earth because i'm really jumping into this blind and [Guido]: batman says it he says [Rob]: oh okay well [Guido]: although this gotham city seems like what i know we were traveling back from [Guido]: another world when suddenly i appeared here [Rob]: okay well i guess cause i was i didn't know how he appeared suddenly
[Guido]: uhhuh [Rob]: it's part five [Rob]: but [Guido]: yes [Rob]: so i think i think it's fun i think i think what is fun is that it's not it's not [Rob]: just the exact story that we were discussing where suddenly all the heroes are [Rob]: women but it is that gender flip so you have instead of supergirl super lad and [Guido]: yeah [Rob]: he's wearing kind of the me masculine version of her costume so i think that that
[Rob]: is what makes it fun and i also really loved i don't know if this is a character [Rob]: that exists in proper dc but is bat zo who's the world's worst detective so i [Rob]: thought [Guido]: yes [Rob]: that that definitely made me laugh [Guido]: yes i figured you'd like the bizarre stuff even though that wasn't why you read [Rob]: yes [Guido]: it but there [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: are little elements to to it like i don't know if you notice but when they go into
[Guido]: bat woman's bat cave the giant coin the penny that she has saved has a woman on it [Rob]: yes the coin is a different face on it yeah [Guido]: and so yeah so it's fun like that there's this whole world where [Guido]: yeah there's gender reversal like in in this issue the countdown search for palmer [Guido]: one we meet wonder man who's wonder woman but but gender flipped um and he had [Guido]: just murdered maxine lord [Rob]: don't sue marvel [Guido]: instead [Rob]: yeah
[Guido]: of max lord so yeah it's fun to see i like miss miracle and big bard i think [Guido]: that's fun in the issue that we read [Rob]: mm yeah yeah and [Guido]: so it really is just [Rob]: i love like learning that dark side is a woman too [Guido]: yeah yeah exactly so it really is just fun to imagine like okay now again it [Guido]: presumes binary which [Guido]: any future telling of the story needs to explore a greater diversity of identity [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: within gender but it's fun regardless and apparently it's inspired by a superman [Guido]: from the eighty seconds that i would have had us read but is not available [Guido]: digitally and really it would have had to come before the created equal but it's [Guido]: an imaginary story where characters are gender swapped so i'm showing you the [Guido]: cover right now of superman [Rob]: i see yeah [Guido]: number three forty nine which has like this that apparently was the inspiration
[Guido]: for earth eleven to be created but [Guido]: yeah just a fun visit do you think earth eleven was inspired by j created equal at [Guido]: all [Rob]: no i don't think so [Guido]: yeah i don't think so either [Guido]: so any other questions we have thoughts about the the impact of these stories [Rob]: well i think i'm just the one thing i'm now just thinking back to is that as as [Rob]: you said we're making more diversity strides in comics especially it it will be
[Rob]: interesting to see how they tackle these legacy characters moving forward and i [Rob]: feel like every time they always come up with you're always saying well who's is [Rob]: gonna be the new james bond is it gonna you know still gonna be a white guy is it [Rob]: gotta be a woman how do you stay true to the original creation of those characters [Rob]: while also allowing for more diversity so you know is someone just gonna be the
[Rob]: bat instead of the batman or ba woman so i think that's definitely something i i [Rob]: feel like we're starting to see now but i think it will be a bigger question [Rob]: to tackle especially as people are looking for even more diversity in the film [Rob]: representations and how those film representations will also in terms of gender or [Rob]: in terms of other diversities will then be reflected in the comics [Guido]: yeah i think we got there really quickly remarkably i mean
[Guido]: in many ways of course not fast enough but it seems striking to me that you know i [Guido]: can remember i don't know four years ago [Guido]: the and there are still people who endlessly debate can laura kinney be wolverine [Guido]: but from the [Rob]: eight [Guido]: publishing side it seems to me like dc and marvel no longer care about that debate [Guido]: so you have batman [Guido]: you have the you have a black batman in new york city right now in a title running
[Guido]: concurrently to batman you have you know bisexual john kent as superman while [Guido]: superman is out in space you have wonder girl [Guido]: new character from brazil who just coexists with dona troy with cassie with all of [Guido]: the characters so you just have all of the characters can now just coexist and you [Guido]: no longer have to stress about it well verne is laura kinney and wolverine is [Guido]: logan and so it no longer feels like the publishers are that worried about who
[Guido]: holds the mantle and has it even though i'm sure there are still segments of [Guido]: fandom on reddit debating this but [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: that's doesn't seem to me that the publishers care as much what's interesting is i [Guido]: actually think dc has more gendered names and so i think has a bigger issue with [Guido]: gender diversity like you just described like you do have batwoman superwoman [Guido]: batman superman back girl super girl super boy you do have a lot of gender names
[Guido]: and marvel doesn't have that as much so [Guido]: yeah [Rob]: yeah and i think [Rob]: yes there's zatanna but really you know there's there's wonder women and you [Rob]: really power girl is is not as big of a hero while if you look at marvel there [Rob]: definitely seems to be more big name woman heroes i mean in the x met alone their [Rob]: half that team is is female represented so [Guido]: yeah they're dc [Rob]: it does seem a probably just coming from bad
[Guido]: dc is leading the way on diversity right now as [Rob]: oh yeah i think they are i think i think a lot of these things go yes definitely [Guido]: someone who reads most of both companies titles dc is really pushing us further [Guido]: than marvel is right now [Rob]: uh yeah i agree no i think i think a lot of this comes from the fact that so many [Rob]: of these dc characters are are so much older and that you are still battling the [Rob]: those those hurdles [Guido]: all right well
[Rob]: well [Guido]: i've been [Guido]: gedo [Rob]: yes [Rob]: and i have been robb and that's a rep thank you dear watchers for listening [Guido]: the reading list is in the show notes please review us wherever you listen [Rob]: yes [Rob]: and we will be back soon with another trip through the multiverse [Guido]: in the meantime in the words of hutu [Guido]: keep pondering the possibilities