[Rob]: welcome to dear watchers a comic book omni verse podcast where we do a deep dive [Rob]: into the multiverse [Guido]: We're traveling through the story lines before and after our alternate universe. I [Guido]: can't remember doing it off top of my head. so here's our interro music [Guido]: and your watchers On this journey continued to be me Gto. [Rob]: and me the raccoon that is actually piloting rob
[Guido]: So the reason I don't have my script open, is this isn't really exciting. bonus [Guido]: episode we're doing. [Guido]: We had [Rob]: yes [Guido]: to do it because we just saw everything everywhere all at once and
[Guido]: talking about it so much. let us to conclude that we wanted to share some of these [Guido]: thoughts, right [Rob]: yes it i did i mean it's a perfect [Rob]: companion to our podcast because it's all about multi verses and omni verses [Guido]: it is, and so fair warning, total spoilers.
[Rob]: yes [Guido]: We' not going to hold back from anything, so if you have not yet seen the movie, [Rob]: i i already spoiled there's a raccoon in the movie so [Guido]: Oh yeah, that's not nice, [Rob]: it's in the [Guido]: but [Rob]: trailer there is a raccoon in the trailer so if you've seen the trailer you get [Guido]: yeah, but you don't know that that one does not know the plot that you divulged, But [Rob]: no no i i think i might have just confused people even more by just saying that
[Guido]: we'll leave it in there and hopefully no one's mad at us. [Rob]: there's a raccoon that's like piloting a person though [Guido]: So if you haven't seen the movie and care about spoilers, then stop listening and [Guido]: come back and listen after you have. If you haven't seen the movie and don't care
[Guido]: about spoilers, then keep listeningcause. You might be inspired to see it [Rob]: that's true [Guido]: based on what we talk about, and so I think that we should just launch right in be [Guido]: cause we both love this movie and have a lot say. And we came up with a way of [Guido]: sharing it, So we're going to go through ten things that we liked about the movie and
[Guido]: two questions that we have about the movie. So [Guido]: who's going to start [Rob]: i'll start [Rob]: and i'll start by talking a little bit about a thing i liked with the rules of the [Rob]: world [Rob]: and in the movie they set up this rule that if you kill a body that [Rob]: your consciousness your multi verse consciousness is inhabiting in that world then [Rob]: that body is dead and that consciousness cannot take that body so if i killed y
[Rob]: Guido in our world than the geos from the other universes cannot inhabit your body [Rob]: and that's a really it's a really strong rule and i think movies like this are [Rob]: really made on rules like this and it's a great way to kind of have this inter [Rob]: dimensional inter universe battle play out gives you real stakes there [Guido]: it? Also, as you talked about, it [Guido]: is the explanation as to why
[Guido]: Evelyn's father of the alpha version of him wants to kill Joy. So the rule [Guido]: makes sense. It makes sense [Rob]: yes [Guido]: in the battle and the progression of the plot. [Rob]: hmm [Guido]: My first thing I like is also going to be a rule. It is a rule I have never heard [Guido]: before, and I and I'm now really eager for other storytellers to use this rule or use
[Guido]: some version of this rule. And it's that in order to jump from universe to universe, [Guido]: you have to do the least probable thing, because that pulls you to the edge of your [Guido]: universe. and then you can leap into the multi verse, and that is really cool. Just [Guido]: even visually, When you're looking at that map of worlds that they show on the on the [Guido]: phone, you can sort of see. It makes sense. Now how you jump. [Guido]: there's not a lot of
[Guido]: multiivesal jumping or time jumping Scifi media. I feel like there's not always a [Guido]: explanation as to how you can jump. There's just some sort of magical device or
[Guido]: magical person that can get you to jump. This felt like it was a you know, absurd but [Guido]: somewhat scientific rationale for Okay, Well, if I do the least probable, least [Guido]: predicted thing that, I'm actually sort of challenging the flow of my my universe, my [Rob]: yes [Guido]: time line, and by pushing at that boundary, I can actually get over that boundary, [Rob]: h
[Guido]: so I think it is the coolest rule. Not even then, accounting for the coolness that it [Guido]: gives you in the movie where they get to just do wild things [Rob]: yeah and it's set up where we're introduced to the idea before it's explained to us [Rob]: so evelyn is told to put her shoes on the wrong feet and we see whalin wem eating [Rob]: the chapstick so it's introduced and we're like why are they doing that what does [Guido]: right.
[Rob]: that have to do and only then is it explained so that's great [Guido]: Yeah, yeah, [Rob]: and then the other thing i like is that it's also set up in the movie that you [Rob]: can't really fake it 'cause [Guido]: Mhm.
[Rob]: evelyn at one point is trying to say i love you to dedra but he's not really saying [Rob]: it so it doesn't really work and wayans but he even says you can't really give [Rob]: yourself a paper cup when you're trying to do it so it's great that like it's set [Rob]: up that like you really have to [Rob]: believe in what you're doing in order for it to work [Rob]: wonderful well i'm gonna talk a little bit about
[Rob]: uh i think this movie we you know we're talking about these rules which are really [Rob]: kind of high scifi ideas but this movie also has a real mix of kind of the high and [Rob]: low if you will so there's these big grand sci fi concepts then there's also a [Rob]: great emotional core of this family and an intergenerational family but then [Rob]: there's also lots of super fun silliness so there is dil dos and there is hot dog
[Rob]: fingers and they're s sticking trophies in your butts and lots of other really [Rob]: goofy things and some things that you could call quote unquote sophomore or grote [Rob]: you know gross out or something like that but that sits us right aside these big [Rob]: kind of grand and emotional concepts and that kind of combination of the two is a [Rob]: really really rare thing
[Guido]: Think narratively. It does it too a [Guido]: level, because [Guido]: I mean, you and I walked out of there and said That was the most entertained we [Rob]: this [Guido]: been in a movie And [Guido]: it's so entertaining and yet it was so emotional and had all these deeper layers to [Guido]: the narrative. so I think narratively it ofs the [Guido]: pure candy entertainment delight [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: of cinema. with like a story telling. I'll be thinking about and feeling about for [Guido]: the rest of my life.
[Rob]: mm hm yeah it's a very diff uh what i'm thinking about now it's a very different [Rob]: kind of [Rob]: show or movie or this this is a show but we were talking about when we were [Rob]: watching peacemaker too there's a lot of gross out kind of things in that but then [Rob]: they feel earned they don't feel just [Rob]: to for the sake of being oh this is a funny joke or whatnot it's part of the [Rob]: character part of the story and i think that's when you can really get away quote
[Rob]: unquote with though doing those kind of things [Guido]: All right, so my number two is the Hollywood omaages that are throughout the film and [Guido]: there are probably so many that we did not even see, which is part of why I can't
[Guido]: wait to see it again. But the most visible to me were the Matrix Oagees, which both [Guido]: in the [Rob]: yes [Guido]: story telling, but then, when they cut to the Alpha verse, and they are wearing the [Guido]: the head gear to link them into the computer, and then the Wang Kar Wa Omage, in [Guido]: particular with the Singers universe, where she and Weymond are in the alley toward
[Guido]: the end. And then I did not even spot cause, I have shockingly never seen Two [Guido]: Thousand Wa Topace Odyssey, But actually, Elliott pointed out to us, you had [Guido]: recognized it. I had, [Rob]: eight [Guido]: not, but Elliott pointed out in our debrif with him that the apes in the hotd dog [Guido]: universe were an oage to two thousand one. So I just really loved the way that they [Guido]: were pulling at these different [Guido]: archetypes images, motifs tropes
[Guido]: that are present in our brains because they are present in our media. I thought that [Guido]: was so cool.
[Rob]: yeah and i think what's neat too is i haven't seen as many wn car w movies as you [Rob]: have but i know he's also dealing with sometimes big sci fi themes and some of his [Guido]: Yes, [Rob]: movies two thousand and one is very much about how one little action can resonate [Rob]: throughout the time and re and beyond time as as the movie then ends with so there [Rob]: definitely definitely and of course the matrix talks so much about this kind of
[Rob]: stuff too so they didn't just thing choose oh this is a reference to another movie [Rob]: but they chose movies that also are talking about similar concepts [Rob]: and for me i'm gonna stick with my hollywood world and go with [Guido]: for your number three.
[Rob]: for my number three and stick with the hollywood world which is that we see evelyn [Rob]: has all these different lives and were shown in really fast montage cuts of this of [Rob]: all the different worlds and one of the worlds we actually see is michelle yo who [Rob]: plays evelyn on the red carpet at the crazy rich asians premiere or cri and of [Rob]: course michelle yo is one of the stars of crazy rich asians so i love that not only
[Rob]: did they use that footage and they did not hide it it says it right behind her but [Rob]: it almost made me think oh wow so maybe michelle yo is an evelyn like the michelle [Rob]: yo of our world is in evelyn and she starred in crazy rich's [Guido]: Yeah, yeah, that's a fun idea. I, that [Guido]: it. [Guido]: My number three is going to be my gosh. What a parable for our times.
[Rob]: seven [Guido]: There are so many ways that this movie spoke to what it feels like to live in an [Guido]: increasingly anxious and confusing world, [Guido]: and to see the letter from the directors that came out with the wide release, which [Guido]: if you haven't read, is on their twitter and is really powerful about their trying to [Guido]: address. starting writing in twenty sixteen, the too muchness of our world, and it
[Guido]: really fit. I mean you could read into a lot of the depression and anxiety, and then, [Guido]: of course, all of Weyman's conclusions, and the lessons learned about being kind, [Guido]: being the most important way to deal with how a day can just feel out of place, and [Guido]: that the world can just feel insecure, And institutions are are sort of [Guido]: demtriializing, [Guido]: But well, yeah, [Rob]: listen
[Guido]: it really was so yet not timely in a sense that I think in ten years or twenty [Rob]: yeah [Guido]: years, or thirty years, or forty years or fifty years, it's going to feel unrelaable [Guido]: either, so it, really. Pretty masterfully got at some key current issues while [Guido]: staying really broad. Andreable.
[Rob]: in that way it also reminds me of the matrix where the matrix was coming at coming [Rob]: out at a time when the internet was just starting to come out and we were maybe in [Rob]: this more corporate world you know corporations were gaining even more power than [Rob]: they had ever before [Rob]: and [Rob]: that movie was a bit of a reaction to that but when you watch the matrix now it [Rob]: doesn't seem like it's commenting specifically on the late ninety seconds it seems
[Rob]: like such an evergreen idea and i think the same thing goes for this movie [Rob]: well my next my number four [Rob]: is going to be performances so we really haven't we talked about concepts a lot in [Rob]: this conversation but we haven't really talked about the actors and there's some [Rob]: amazing actors here of course michelle yo is is leading the way here [Rob]: but also the other thing i wanted to comment on is that this is a great film for [Rob]: older actors [Guido]: Mhm,
[Rob]: so stephanie sue is one of the stars and she she's only in her thirties but most [Rob]: most the of the other [Guido]: Yeah, the others for sure, [Rob]: actors are all older james hong who plays michelle yo's father in his nineties and [Rob]: you probably know him from big trouble in little china and blade runner but it's [Rob]: just a really great opportunity for actors not white actors older actors all these [Rob]: things that are still unfortunately rarities in hollywood
[Guido]: including to that depth. I mean, I've seen some some interviews with the cast talking [Guido]: about not being given roles or [Rob]: seven [Guido]: having opportunities for roles that have such a range, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: And this gives that so, on top of just being a showcase for these incredible [Guido]: performers and performers of an age or a race that don't often get to star the the [Guido]: characters and the things they have to do [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: are actually quite diverse and and different too. So [Rob]: yeah and and people like michelle yo and jamie lee curtis you know older women who [Rob]: also get to do these kick ass fight [Guido]: yeah, [Rob]: sequences and that is such [Guido]: they do [Rob]: a taboo and you know you so rarely see that and romance too [Guido]: and romance right, Like with each other like like, So they? you know? Yeah, they get [Guido]: to be everything in in this movie.
[Rob]: everything all at once [Guido]: I did not even mean for that to happen.
[Guido]: Uh, so my number four is going to be [Guido]: generational trauma, and I think that one of the many levels that this film works and [Guido]: resonates with me is [Guido]: that that idea of what you inherit from your family, and what the way you're brought [Guido]: up and either loved or rejected by your family means and we see really clearly what [Guido]: it means for Evelyn, and and why she might be the way that she is, And then how she
[Guido]: transfers that on to joy, even though she accepts joy'. ▁queerness, that is a Di. [Guido]: That is a factor. Of course, is it is joys. grandfather going to be accepting of it, [Guido]: and just all of those questions of how we deal with trauma and love and family [Guido]: relationships. And what that means I think were really powerful and they were subtle. [Guido]: They slowly peel back at. [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: You know. this movie is so impossible to characterize, so I'd never call it a movie [Guido]: about gener, intergenerational trauma or family, but of course that is so core to it. [Guido]: Also, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: so it, and it slowly evolves and and I took a lot out of it, and I identified a lot [Rob]: h [Guido]: with with a lot of it and it was very powerful.
[Rob]: yeah in that way it reminds me of a little bit of what the watchman tv series did [Rob]: which is take something [Rob]: genre but talk about trauma through that lens [Rob]: which [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: is something it still feels relatively new for film and tv to do that through a [Rob]: comic book kind of storytelling or a sci fi storytelling but in many ways by [Rob]: putting it through that prism it actually makes it resonate even more
[Guido]: well, especially because it's like. it's so counter to what [Guido]: Marvel and D C are doing, [Guido]: which obviously I love enormously. I mean the M. C U. Is you know my other favorite [Guido]: movie watching experience ever in the world is Is you mean and Elliot watching End [Guido]: game in the theater, But it's you know one division starts to get at telling a story [Guido]: of something through the vehicle of genre and Scifi. But it, it even barely scratches
[Guido]: the surface. and and it's the only one that I think does that. So yeah, you're right.
[Guido]: it is. It is a great way that some of these more independent projects, although [Guido]: Watchman is D, C, actually so, but some of these more independent projects can start [Guido]: to use what we know about genre film's comic book films and tell something bigger, [Rob]: well for my number five you were talking about trauma so i'm on a lighter note for [Rob]: myself and i'm gonna talk about that there are some really adorable and very [Rob]: unexpected uses of animals in this movie
[Rob]: so there [Guido]: and [Rob]: is
[Guido]: add some traumatic ones. Though [Rob]: yes yes depending on your case so you know there's a pig on a leash i think the [Rob]: first time maybe we see joy as the villa's walking a pig on the leash which is [Rob]: really cute [Guido]: I forgot that [Rob]: then uh then we see a dog early on in the movie that jenny slates character has but [Rob]: then [Rob]: jenny slate in a baby carriage which is an extra cuteness but then [Guido]: in a in a baby carriage,
[Rob]: probably what you're talking about for the more traumatic this is where the [Guido]: Yes, [Rob]: trauma comes in is then jenny slate uses that dog as a weapon and she swirls it [Rob]: around on her leash like the little schoolgirl in battle royal that's what it [Rob]: reminded me of and and yeah she uses it as like this mace ah there's of course the [Rob]: raccoon which we talked about which speaks may or may not have the voice of randy
[Rob]: newman we were not able to confirm but kind of a take off [Guido]: and appears to be something. Elliot pointed out that that I appreciate too Is it [Guido]: appears to be [Guido]: physical, a [Guido]: practical effect, ananimatronic. I'm sure sometimes it's cleaned up or their C G [Rob]: yes yes totally [Guido]: elements, but particularly when it's being carted away in the cage, that is a you [Guido]: know chucky cheese style [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: anatronic sitting there in that cage and that adds. I think [Rob]: oh totally yeah [Guido]: to uh, what we appreciate about [Rob]: totally [Guido]: the use of that animal?
[Rob]: yeah i th that it's such a great plot and k take off of ratt which i've never [Rob]: actually seen though i do know the concept of it but i was able to get it without [Rob]: seeing it and the one more out of the box what i wanted to mention is the time when [Rob]: evelyn and joy become the rocks and it actually [Rob]: reminded me of having a pet well it reminded me of having a pet rock [Guido]: Oh, those are animal like.
[Guido]: Oh, yeah, [Rob]: especially when we see the rock with the googly eyes on it [Guido]: uhhuh, [Rob]: and it really reminded me of just like having a pet rock which i i did as as a kid [Rob]: so yeah [Guido]: Yeah, [Rob]: that kind of also spoke to me as well maybe there's other animal stuff that i'm [Rob]: missing too but those are definitely the ones that stood out to me [Guido]: how fun right. My fifth and final, our ten thing we love about this movie is going to [Guido]: be the circle,
[Guido]: symbolism or motifs that are throughout the movie. It was I. I love recurring symbols [Rob]: listen [Guido]: I love love, love visual cues that are linked to the narrative. It's it's something I [Guido]: really appreciate in anything I'm consuming. and in this case the circle. I'm sure [Guido]: there are just dozens of examples, but I really like that. While you know, the the
[Guido]: sort of paint brush circle is the really common ▁zen symbol. it becomes the symbol [Guido]: that Deirdra and the I R S office circles [Rob]: yes [Guido]: around on the receipts, It, of course is the googly eyes is a circle in a circle. It [Guido]: is [Guido]: the everything Bagel of Nhilsm, [Rob]: seven [Guido]: also, and and again debefing with Elliott pointed out, it's the image of a black [Guido]: hole. So [Rob]: yes [Guido]: there's so much circular
[Guido]: symbolism and I really love imagery recurring and I think they use it. Well, the [Rob]: the washing machines and dryers as well which we keep coming back and has got that [Guido]: washing machines. right, You pointed that out, Mhm, [Rob]: you know literally something going around and around [Guido]: Mhm, which is almost mesmerizing, Right it? It pulls you in when any time it's why,
[Guido]: like in any, S in any uh, hypnosis trope in a movie or T V show. it's a. It's a [Guido]: spiraling circle Right, [Rob]: yes [Guido]: That's what Poll draws you in a twilight ▁zone. Of course, being a very [Rob]: yeah totally [Guido]: famous example, so I love the the recurring circles a lot. [Rob]: well we [Guido]: So we have two questions. Let [Rob]: yes questions [Guido]: me, let's let's transition [Guido]: me, let's let's transition
[Guido]: All right. So to to close us out with our two lingering questions, which my gosh, [Guido]: there probably could have been a million. [Rob]: of course yeah [Guido]: but I'll start. I'll start [Rob]: yes [Guido]: with [Guido]: question. My question is what would have [Rob]: and then [Guido]: happened if [Guido]: Joy or or anyone, Evelyn, but Joy was the closest, went into the Nilsm, into the [Guido]: everything Vehle, Like, what would have happened? What rules of the world
[Guido]: do we know Like? would she have been obliterated? What would that have meant? Would [Guido]: that have [Rob]: i don't know [Guido]: meant that she is obliterated in every universe? Does that somehow obliterate the [Guido]: universecause? [Rob]: mhm [Guido]: It breaks something. I mean, I, I'm curious and I I love thinking about it. It is not [Guido]: a plot hole to me. It's something. I just really love wondering. Is what would have [Guido]: happened?
[Rob]: yeah [Rob]: in my mind it goes more towards the [Rob]: metaphor which of then the depression that joy has and i'm also thinking about that [Rob]: kind of another spiraling thing is is actually doom scrolling and going through [Rob]: social media and that you're in this endless cycle of of nilis really so my kind of [Rob]: mind goes more towards like the real world metaphor version of that where i could
[Rob]: see by her jumping into the everything bagel it's really her embracing this kind of [Rob]: hopelessness which [Guido]: Darkness. Yeah, [Rob]: is i think a feeling that we've been feeling as a world a little bit with over the [Rob]: last few years or at least that's that's kind of come to the forefront [Guido]: so all the joys and and the jubies exist, but they are all now just completely devoid [Guido]: of any hope or loveing.
[Rob]: and i'm almost thinking you know this seems very obvious that i didn't really think [Rob]: about it until right this moment that the character's name is joy and she is [Rob]: suffering from [Guido]: That only just occurred to [Rob]: yes it is [Guido]: through all our discussion yesterday of depression, and like the way this could be an [Guido]: allegory for depression. It was very clear obvious to me. [Rob]: oh my gosh yeah no no i'm only just thinking of that now yes
[Guido]: So that is my wondering and I don't. I don't. I don't even need an answer. I don't [Rob]: one [Guido]: need a conclusion. I just like wondering it. [Rob]: yes [Guido]: What your question? [Rob]: and i'll add we did have everything bagels this morning [Rob]: let us in the [Guido]: What is your question [Rob]: they were not everly everything bagels of of darkness and nys and nothingness [Guido]: right? We're still here and feeling love and joy.
[Rob]: though yes [Rob]: so my question is [Rob]: did evelyn at the end of the movie choose the right multi verse to live in [Rob]: so we see her emb we see her kind of embracing the world that we kind of stark her [Rob]: in and of course we see all these other versions one where she is a movie star [Rob]: but doesn't have love he or she has love but it's complicated and i think one of [Rob]: the things that really resonated with me at the end of the movie is it is not a
[Rob]: film where things are easily resolved we don't know if they're going to really keep [Rob]: the laundry bat we don't know if joy in evelyn's relationship is really sage we [Rob]: don't know if raymond and evelyn are actually gonna stay together either so evelyn [Rob]: has actually chosen the universe where there are still all of these unpredictable [Rob]: moments ahead [Guido]: Yeah, I guess some of answering this question, which is why it's interesting to
[Guido]: wonder about too is requires a sense of. [Guido]: It's like reminding me a lot of Loki. what's the sacred time line? And who's deciding [Guido]: what the sacred time line is? And and then that raises all sorts of questions of [Guido]: destiny. Right. So do we imagine that? if Evelyn had left [Guido]: the prime Earth, I don't know what else to call it. I think they might refer it to [Guido]: the Beta verse at some point, but if she left the earth, we see
[Guido]: her consciousness. She Evelyn will still exist. It's just [Rob]: yes [Guido]: she will not be a part of it. So what does that mean? What is she doing to that, [Guido]: Evelyn? And then if she lands in a singing universe and stays there because it's a [Guido]: more attractive appealing universe. Like, what does that mean for that consciousness? [Guido]: Like it requires a sense of [Rob]: mhm [Guido]: how all of that plays out and what's predestined. And when you deviate from that
[Guido]: which is predestined, what does it mean? So? I mean, Obviously, for for narrative [Guido]: purposes, I think she [Guido]: chose the right one because [Guido]: she, she chose to stay and make change right, she [Rob]: yes [Guido]: chose to do something different. She [Rob]: and commit [Guido]: chose to outjoy to her father. She chose to give joy the space to step away. But but [Guido]: remind her that she loves her and wants her there, and and is a safety net for her.
[Guido]: Um, so [Rob]: and commit to that universe because we get the sense earlier on when actually they [Rob]: go to the irs that she's had all these hobbies through which you're of course [Rob]: pulling from the other multi verses that she's a singer and that she always had [Rob]: this kind of commitment and of course when we first see her in the movie she's [Rob]: super harried and she's trying to do ten things at once and she's not really [Rob]: sitting down doing just one thing
[Guido]: well, lack of commitment. She's always had this lack of commitment. Yeah, [Rob]: and a lack of commitment their lack of commitment yes and at the end of the movie [Rob]: we kind of then see even kind of the last line [Rob]: is her kind of zeroing in and saying like okay i'm listening i'm here now i'm not [Rob]: dividing my attention and maybe you know of course in that moment she is doing that [Rob]: but maybe we can also assume that she will be doing that for her family as well not
[Rob]: dividing her attention really being there with them [Guido]: so [Guido]: what do you think if you're listening to this, please join us on Twitter and tell us [Guido]: what [Rob]: yes
[Guido]: did you like? What questions do you have? Obviously we both love this film. It will [Guido]: be one of my favorite films and I am glad we got to share ten things we liked and two [Guido]: questions we had about everything everywhere all at once, [Rob]: yeah so you can [Guido]: so you can follow us online.
[Rob]: at dear watchers or send us an email as well we'd love to hear your thoughts on the [Rob]: movie [Rob]: and we will be back soon with another trip through the multiverse [Guido]: Make sure to subscribe, review and share. [Rob]: yes